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Anti Semitism And Jeremy Corbyn
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Corbyn is picking a unwinable fight.To make a point about the inequality the Palestinians suffer.Its very ineffective as far as I can see. | |||
"Israel will do whatever it wants regardless of who criticises her. It's that sort of country it's carrying a lot of baggage.
Corbyn is picking a unwinable fight.To make a point about the inequality the Palestinians suffer.Its very ineffective as far as I can see." | |||
"Most of them are fine, but there are 3 that *could* be problematic. 1. "Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations." Depending on how this is read/interpreted, it seems to be saying at ALL individual citizens are most "loyal" to there own country as opposed to collectively. I believe that there will always be individuals who are not. We have had born and bred Brits spy for the Russians, we have had people will dual citizenship, or renouncing their British citizenship. It is therefore likely that there will be *individuals* who are more loyal to Israel than whichever country they are in. 2. "Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation." Double standards are always applied. We hold different expectations of justice in say India than America. About the foreign policy of Pakistan compared to France etc. 3. "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." These seems to give carte blanche to the state of Israel to do whatever it wants without that comparison being allowed to be made. If you don't want to be compared to the Nazis, don't do things the Nazis did. " Isn’t 2 more about not demanding a standard we hold ANY rather than SOME or ALL countries ? I’m not sure what standard is being alluded to here which no other country is held to. I’m not even sure if there was one it would necessarily be anti Semitic. I’d maybe hold the states and nobody else to a certain standard because it is the leading nuclear power. But that isn’t because if a race thing. | |||
"Most of them are fine, but there are 3 that *could* be problematic. 1. "Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations." Depending on how this is read/interpreted, it seems to be saying at ALL individual citizens are most "loyal" to there own country as opposed to collectively. I believe that there will always be individuals who are not. We have had born and bred Brits spy for the Russians, we have had people will dual citizenship, or renouncing their British citizenship. It is therefore likely that there will be *individuals* who are more loyal to Israel than whichever country they are in. 2. "Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation." Double standards are always applied. We hold different expectations of justice in say India than America. About the foreign policy of Pakistan compared to France etc. 3. "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." These seems to give carte blanche to the state of Israel to do whatever it wants without that comparison being allowed to be made. If you don't want to be compared to the Nazis, don't do things the Nazis did. Isn’t 2 more about not demanding a standard we hold ANY rather than SOME or ALL countries ? I’m not sure what standard is being alluded to here which no other country is held to. I’m not even sure if there was one it would necessarily be anti Semitic. I’d maybe hold the states and nobody else to a certain standard because it is the leading nuclear power. But that isn’t because if a race thing. " Either way, it's about the policies of a state, rather than all Jewish people. I personally see anti-Semitism to do with Jewish people, rather than the state of Israel, but hey, that's just me. | |||
" I personally see anti-Semitism to do with Jewish people, rather than the state of Israel, but hey, that's just me." Me, too. It must be possible to criticise the behaviour of a government, any government, without having a race or religious bigotry card chucked at you. Israel's wilful disregard of UN resolution after UN resolution regarding the occupied territories, and their brutal suppression of the Arabs living in those territories, is a legitimate concern for any politician. No-one who criticised the Mugabe regime in Africa was accused of being racist because Mugabe was black. So why should anyone who criticises the Israeli government be accused of being anti-semitic? Israel is overplaying its hand here. | |||
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"More evidence this week that Israel carried out a nuclear test in the southern hemisphere in 1979. Both the test and the possession of nuclear weapons contravene UN treaties. Is it now going to be considered anti-semitic to criticise Israel for detonating a nuclear weapon in the Atlantic Ocean? " Honestly! You'll be telling us they sank the Rainbow warrior and assassinated Dr David Kelly next! | |||
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"I have heard that Corbyn is still associated with people who attended meetings of the IHR, mostly those where David Irving was present. Many skeletons in his closet there is. " Where did you hear that? Do these people have names? And if so, what exactly is his "association" with them? | |||
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"What is the problem with corbyn meeting up with Palestinians or some Irish guys . Dialogue is often the only solution to conflicts. I also think Netanyahu is being a total hypocrite .Which is standard for him." How many times has Jeremy Corbyn met with anyone from the Israeli side in the "pursuit of peace"? | |||
"What is the problem with corbyn meeting up with Palestinians or some Irish guys . Dialogue is often the only solution to conflicts. I also think Netanyahu is being a total hypocrite .Which is standard for him. How many times has Jeremy Corbyn met with anyone from the Israeli side in the "pursuit of peace"?" He's been to Israel many times from what I've read .How many times has our prime minister met Palestinian leaders.? | |||
"What is the problem with corbyn meeting up with Palestinians or some Irish guys . Dialogue is often the only solution to conflicts. I also think Netanyahu is being a total hypocrite .Which is standard for him. How many times has Jeremy Corbyn met with anyone from the Israeli side in the "pursuit of peace"? He's been to Israel many times from what I've read .How many times has our prime minister met Palestinian leaders.?" Just because he's "been to Israel" it doesn't mean he's been meeting any Isreali leaders. | |||
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"I have absolutely no problem with Jewish people whatsoever! However, the government of Israel is an evil apartheid regime who influence media headlines to deflect international criticism! The BBC have been caught out recently in changing a headline on their website which was initially critical of Israel! Does the Jewish government control or have influence in media outlets and financial institutions globally, absolutely. Antisemitism is used by the Israeli regime to suppress criticism!! " | |||
"I have absolutely no problem with Jewish people whatsoever! However, the government of Israel is an evil apartheid regime who influence media headlines to deflect international criticism! The BBC have been caught out recently in changing a headline on their website which was initially critical of Israel! Does the Jewish government control or have influence in media outlets and financial institutions globally, absolutely. Antisemitism is UAE’s by the Israeli regime to suppress criticism!! " It's fair to compare the occupied territories and gaza to an apartheid like regime .The global Jewish conspiracy stuff is when people move into the absurd though. | |||
"I have absolutely no problem with Jewish people whatsoever! However, the government of Israel is an evil apartheid regime who influence media headlines to deflect international criticism! The BBC have been caught out recently in changing a headline on their website which was initially critical of Israel! Does the Jewish government control or have influence in media outlets and financial institutions globally, absolutely. Antisemitism is UAE’s by the Israeli regime to suppress criticism!! It's fair to compare the occupied territories and gaza to an apartheid like regime .The global Jewish conspiracy stuff is when people move into the absurd though." You disagree with the influence on the media as being absurd? | |||
"You disagree with the influence on the media as being absurd?" There's a definite bias towards Israel in Western media. This is in a large part due to Israel being of strategic interest to US foreign policy, and the fact that every British government (including the most left-wing government we've ever had under Atlee) has been beholden to these interests since the second-world war. One of the biggest reasons Corbyn is such a threat to the centrist wing of Labour is that he has always refused to tow the the line. This doesn't necessarily come from the Jewish community. In fact it's totally conducive to the aims of the far right if every Jewish person in Europe and North America uses their right of return and deports themself to the Holy Land. I've seen plenty of Jewish people regularly condemn the actions of the Israeli state. What's being contested here is the idea that there's a global conspiracy amongst Jews to control the media. There is a rising current of conspiracy theories, which are mostly orchestrated by the far-right, and often have Jews as the people behind the conspiracies, but that doesn't mean that people on the left aren't susceptible to repeating them, especially if it's masquerading as pro-palestinian or anti-capitalist propganda. But to suggest the left is inherently anti-semitic relies on the trope of Jews being wealthy and successful. In March, when a protest about anti-semitism in the Labour, a letter that was circulated calling it the work of a "powerful interest group". Now, you can give them the benefit of the doubt, and say they were talking about the centrist wing of the Labour party, who are working against the mass of the party membership to undermine Corbyn's leadership, in which case that makes absolute sense. But did they not stop to think "hmm...what if people think we're talking about the Jews?" John McDonnell had a pretty sound response IMHO: Describing Jewish people as a 'very powerful special interest group' is an antisemitic stereotype that undermines not supports Jeremy and his determination to unite our communities. Let’s all come together now, not divide." Recent polls would suggest that all those trying to discredit Corbyn have overreached and people are getting a bit tired with it. The fear is that it becomes a case of the boy who cried wolf. We're extremely polarised and too many "woke" pseudo-leftist have adopted a position of defensiveness against any allegations of anti-semitism, regardless of their merit. The problem with having a rigid definition of what is and isn't anti-semitic, is that it encourages people to let others decide for them whether something is or isn't, rather than engage with what their reading and making their own mind up. The left definitely needs to do more to out batshit conspiracy theorists in general, and I try to do my bit. Corbyn is a dimplomat, and whilst he does err too much on the side of solidarity with people like Hamas, you do have to remember that they are the elected government of the Palestinian people, and were Palestine to become a fully recognised sovereign state (to which Britain and the US are the main block), then they'd be getting treated the same as every other despotic regime on the planet. Had the West been more open to dialogue when Fatah been in power, maybe less Palestinians would have been pushed to the extremes. So whilst Corbyn is maybe willing to brush shoulders with ominous people, it definitely seems like he does so out of support for the Palestinian cause (marking him as an enemy of the liberal establishment) than out of any hatred for anyone. | |||
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"You disagree with the influence on the media as being absurd? There's a definite bias towards Israel in Western media. This is in a large part due to Israel being of strategic interest to US foreign policy, and the fact that every British government (including the most left-wing government we've ever had under Atlee) has been beholden to these interests since the second-world war. One of the biggest reasons Corbyn is such a threat to the centrist wing of Labour is that he has always refused to tow the the line. This doesn't necessarily come from the Jewish community. In fact it's totally conducive to the aims of the far right if every Jewish person in Europe and North America uses their right of return and deports themself to the Holy Land. I've seen plenty of Jewish people regularly condemn the actions of the Israeli state. What's being contested here is the idea that there's a global conspiracy amongst Jews to control the media. There is a rising current of conspiracy theories, which are mostly orchestrated by the far-right, and often have Jews as the people behind the conspiracies, but that doesn't mean that people on the left aren't susceptible to repeating them, especially if it's masquerading as pro-palestinian or anti-capitalist propganda. But to suggest the left is inherently anti-semitic relies on the trope of Jews being wealthy and successful. In March, when a protest about anti-semitism in the Labour, a letter that was circulated calling it the work of a "powerful interest group". Now, you can give them the benefit of the doubt, and say they were talking about the centrist wing of the Labour party, who are working against the mass of the party membership to undermine Corbyn's leadership, in which case that makes absolute sense. But did they not stop to think "hmm...what if people think we're talking about the Jews?" John McDonnell had a pretty sound response IMHO: Describing Jewish people as a 'very powerful special interest group' is an antisemitic stereotype that undermines not supports Jeremy and his determination to unite our communities. Let’s all come together now, not divide." Recent polls would suggest that all those trying to discredit Corbyn have overreached and people are getting a bit tired with it. The fear is that it becomes a case of the boy who cried wolf. We're extremely polarised and too many "woke" pseudo-leftist have adopted a position of defensiveness against any allegations of anti-semitism, regardless of their merit. The problem with having a rigid definition of what is and isn't anti-semitic, is that it encourages people to let others decide for them whether something is or isn't, rather than engage with what their reading and making their own mind up. The left definitely needs to do more to out batshit conspiracy theorists in general, and I try to do my bit. Corbyn is a dimplomat, and whilst he does err too much on the side of solidarity with people like Hamas, you do have to remember that they are the elected government of the Palestinian people, and were Palestine to become a fully recognised sovereign state (to which Britain and the US are the main block), then they'd be getting treated the same as every other despotic regime on the planet. Had the West been more open to dialogue when Fatah been in power, maybe less Palestinians would have been pushed to the extremes. So whilst Corbyn is maybe willing to brush shoulders with ominous people, it definitely seems like he does so out of support for the Palestinian cause (marking him as an enemy of the liberal establishment) than out of any hatred for anyone." I couldn’t agree more with what you wrote! | |||
