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Now they are burning our famous poems!

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Cultural Marxism at its worst, it’s like burning books, and we all should know where that leads. This article from a man I won’t name, but someone I have known over 25 years.

“It is one of the nation’s favourite poems, a romantic evocation of stoicism with its most famous lines inscribed at the entrance to Wimbledon’s Centre Court.

However, students at Manchester University have scrubbed out Rudyard Kipling’s If on the walls of their students’ union building, saying that the poet sought to “legitimate the British Empire’s presence in India”.

The poem was painted on the interior of the building by an artist during a recent renovation. This week students used a black marker pen to write out the poemStill I Rise by Maya Angelou in its place.

Sara Khan, the liberation and access officer at Manchester University Students’ Union (SU), said that there had been a “failure to consult students” during the renovation and Kipling did not represent the union’s values.

“We, as an exec team, believe that Kipling stands for the opposite of liberation, empowerment, and human rights — the things that we, as an SU, stand for,” Ms Khan said. “Well known as author of the racist poem The White Man’s Burden, and a plethora of other work that sought to legitimate the British Empire’s presence in India and dehumanise people of colour, it is deeply inappropriate to promote the work of Kipling in our SU, which is named after the prominent South African anti-apartheid activist Steve Biko . . . We replaced his words with those of the legendary Maya Angelou, a black female poet and civil rights activist.”

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'd be furious about the loss of this poem, if I could remember it.

But as you, and the person whose work I assume you have permission to reproduce, have made clear, it's been burned in it's entirety and it's gone forever.

A shame.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I know why the caged bird sings.Do you OP?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Here is the poem in question, I can’t see what their problem is.

“ BY RUDYARD KIPLING

(‘Brother Square-Toes’—Rewards and Fairies)

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,

Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,

And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;

If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,

And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son! “

More About this Poem

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I know why the caged bird sings.Do you OP?

Probably because it has fuck all else to do, just like the lefty Student Union..,

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's not the poem they have a problem it's Kipling .

Maybe read " The white mans burden." by Kipling

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"It's not the poem they have a problem it's Kipling .

Maybe read " The white mans burden." by Kipling

I have read it, and think it is a great poem. Sure times have changed, but not in a good way.

Fuck the left...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It's not the poem they have a problem it's Kipling .

Maybe read " The white mans burden." by Kipling

I have read it, and think it is a great poem. Sure times have changed, but not in a good way.

Fuck the left..."

Thd World moved on you got left behind .Do you need a hug from a lefty ...

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"It's not the poem they have a problem it's Kipling .

Maybe read " The white mans burden." by Kipling

I have read it, and think it is a great poem. Sure times have changed, but not in a good way.

Fuck the left...

Thd World moved on you got left behind .Do you need a hug from a lefty ...

I’d like to see one try it!

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

The university put up murals in the students union without their consult - they decided they didn't like it. That's fair. It's the students union after all, and they should be able to project their own vision upon it.

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

To hell with them, red bastards..

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

"To hell with them, red bastards.."

I don't think you have to be particularly left to not want imperialistic poetry to represent you.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"To hell with them, red bastards..

I don't think you have to be particularly left to not want imperialistic poetry to represent you. "

jim.... stop with that nonsense hippy talk....

i think the irony is going to be they replaced it with a poem from maya.....

I am waiting of peace to really "slip up".... you feel a unflattering rant coming that will cause at least one group of people to be truely offended....

(willing to take bets on which group by the way....)

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

"Cultural Marxism"

A nonsense phrase.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"The university put up murals in the students union without their consult - they decided they didn't like it. That's fair. It's the students union after all, and they should be able to project their own vision upon it.

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it. "

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?"

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

And also, re the OP: nobody burned anything.

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By *eedsandyMan over a year ago

Leeds

Metaphorically they did.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively....."

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

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By *eedsandyMan over a year ago

Leeds

And they are too stupid to realise that they are censoring free speech, stifling debate and trying to erase history.

University should not be about any of those things.

She should be removed from the university.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And they are too stupid to realise that they are censoring free speech, stifling debate and trying to erase history.

University should not be about any of those things.

She should be removed from the university."

You’re right. Save such actions for MPs!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And they are too stupid to realise that they are censoring free speech, stifling debate and trying to erase history.

None of those things are happening, stop lying.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it."

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

"And they are too stupid to realise that they are censoring free speech, stifling debate and trying to erase history.

University should not be about any of those things.

She should be removed from the university."

No, they aren't. It's a new installation.

The book is available, nobody censured anything, nobody burned anything.

The students decided the new mural didn't represent the kind of values that the student body held.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body. "

But how did the university decide if the SU built it?

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

But how did the university decide if the SU built it? "

You'd have to ask them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

But how did the university decide if the SU built it? "

University offices overstepping their bounds, especially with regards to the Student Union is an old, old story.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

But how did the university decide if the SU built it?

University offices overstepping their bounds, especially with regards to the Student Union is an old, old story."

Awww bless their little cotton socks. Heaven forbid anyone should hurt the little student snowflakes feelings.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

But how did the university decide if the SU built it?

University offices overstepping their bounds, especially with regards to the Student Union is an old, old story.

Awww bless their little cotton socks. Heaven forbid anyone should hurt the little student snowflakes feelings. "

Why do you say that? They didn't moan, they actually did something about it.

It's not about feelings. I think you need to check who's the snowflake here. U ok hun?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

But how did the university decide if the SU built it?

University offices overstepping their bounds, especially with regards to the Student Union is an old, old story.

Awww bless their little cotton socks. Heaven forbid anyone should hurt the little student snowflakes feelings. "

Try reading what's written, there's a good lad.

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

"Cultural Marxism at its worst, it’s like burning books, and we all should know where that leads. This article from a man I won’t name, but someone I have known over 25 years.

“It is one of the nation’s favourite poems, a romantic evocation of stoicism with its most famous lines inscribed at the entrance to Wimbledon’s Centre Court.

Angry about something again? There's a surprise.

They didn't like the poem so they put a new one up.

So what?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Cultural Marxism at its worst, it’s like burning books, and we all should know where that leads. This article from a man I won’t name, but someone I have known over 25 years.

“It is one of the nation’s favourite poems, a romantic evocation of stoicism with its most famous lines inscribed at the entrance to Wimbledon’s Centre Court.

Jolly good for them

#arsed

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By *avidnsa69Man over a year ago

Essex

It's not like this was some historical artefact, it was a new installation.

There is no censorship- I'm sure the poem is in the university library if people want to read it.

If it's the students union, then why didn't they build it themselves?

Their fees subsidise it, their events bring in its revenue, so effectively.....

So if they built it, they shouldn't be defacing what they decided to put in it.

But they didn't decide, that's rather the point. The university decided without consulting the student body.

But how did the university decide if the SU built it?

University offices overstepping their bounds, especially with regards to the Student Union is an old, old story.

Awww bless their little cotton socks. Heaven forbid anyone should hurt the little student snowflakes feelings. "

Where does it say their feelings were hurt? Their building, their choice. They chose to erase a poem by a racist and replace it with one by someone whose values they believe to be more in keeping with the values of the SU. I sincerely hope that part of their thinking was to produce spluttering apoplexy amongst the less liberal - which they seem to have achieved judging by media reports and the outrage in the comments sections of the right wing press. It's certainly upset you hasnt it? Bless...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I like the poem and don't detect any racism in it but if Kipling was then I can vaguely see their point....although I wish they used that youthful angst more positively.

Does anyone have the Maya Angelou poem handy? I like her stuff.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This thread seems to have more knee jerk, snowflake reactions from the *right* than the *left*. How strange.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Was the poem its self racist ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Was the poem its self racist ?

Not that I could see, and it has a good message. The first two lines are classic.

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Would it be alright for any poem to be replaced for any reason?

What if it was just a rubbish poem?

What if they got bored of it?

Do they need a reason?

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

"I like the poem and don't detect any racism in it but if Kipling was then I can vaguely see their point....although I wish they used that youthful angst more positively.

Does anyone have the Maya Angelou poem handy? I like her stuff.

The poem itself is not. However, Kipling was a supporter of colonialism (see above:"the white man's burden"). The students said they'd rather give a voice to those who have not traditionally had one because of that system.

It's a bit like how everyone knows Florence Nightingale, less Mary Seacole.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

"This thread seems to have more knee jerk, snowflake reactions from the *right* than the *left*. How strange. "

This is the amusing irony of that particular insult. It always seems to be used by those who are the most easily offended.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Maybe the students should find an uneducated homeless guy or girl and give them a platform for their poetry.

The students themselves being part of a heirarchial system of society. Those in the union at its evil core, in charge.

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By *od_AlmightyMan over a year ago

Heaven

some context ....

the poem 'If' was written as a tribute to Leander Jameson whose political and military activities (including a coup) were instrumental in the creation of the apartheid regimes of southern africa. considering the SU in manchester is named 'the Steve Biko Building' after the civil rights champion murdered by south african police whilst in custody, it's hardly surprising that the members of said union exponged it from their walls.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sounds fair.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"some context ....

Was it the union, or was it the act of a single student? Did they ask the other students which poem or poet most represented the union?

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By *alking HeadMan over a year ago

Bolton

Why not have both poems? Maybe with an explanation in the wall as to why? It would get their point across more effectively and wouldnt wind people up.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In his autobiography Something of Myself, Kipling wrote that his verses in If contained “counsels of perfection most easy to give … Schools, and places where they teach, took them for the suffering Young – which did me no good with the Young when I met them later … They were printed as cards to hang up in offices and bedrooms; illuminated text-wise and anthologised to weariness.”

Seems he wouldn't be impressed with if being plastered all over a university wall .

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

"Why not have both poems? Maybe with an explanation in the wall as to why? It would get their point across more effectively and wouldnt wind people up."

But it's fun winding people up. Especially if you are young and the kind of people who are massively and vocally offended by this are bigoted old people....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It's not the poem they have a problem it's Kipling .

Maybe read " The white mans burden." by Kipling

I have read it, and think it is a great poem. Sure times have changed, but not in a good way.

Fuck the left..."

Just read this poem and I see it as being sympathetic and siding with those enslaved.!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There was some statue in Bristol of a guy called coulston, fully agree that his deeds be put on his statue along with the explanation he profiteered from slavery and the ugly truth.

New buildings and streets should not be named after him

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By *enshermanMan over a year ago

Durham

"There was some statue in Bristol of a guy called coulston, fully agree that his deeds be put on his statue along with the explanation he profiteered from slavery and the ugly truth.

New buildings and streets should not be named after him"

Lol I thought your profile pic was that of a KKK member at first.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There was some statue in Bristol of a guy called coulston, fully agree that his deeds be put on his statue along with the explanation he profiteered from slavery and the ugly truth.

New buildings and streets should not be named after him

Lol I thought your profile pic was that of a KKK member at first."

Couldn't find a mac Donalds bag

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