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Have Leave leaders or supporters done anything wrong?
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
I'm interested to know if Leave supporters can provide any incidences of leave leaders or supporters making any mistakes or exaggerated claims or clear lies?
I would ask that remain supporters do not make their own suggestions. Try just to listen. I'd ask both sides to also try not to rise to provocation or attempts to sideline the thread.
My intention is to try to understand what Leave supporters feel is or is not realistic about the expectations raised by Brexit.
I will start a parallel thread for the opposite. |
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It rather depends on your definition of wrong.
There can be no doubt that the Euro-skeptics political leaders have run a well disciplined long term misinformation campaign against the EU, and have successfully blamed the EU for policy decisions they have made that have strengthened and enriched their main backers. There can equally be no doubt that they have successfully used obfuscation, abrogation and delaying tactics to ensure that their opposition still has nothing tangible to unite around. This to me has the hallmarks of a near perfect asymmetric hearts and minds operation. The question is once the power transfer is complete will we have benevolent or malevolent rulers?
I fear the guiding force of brexit is malevolent. But apparently I am a bit of a whako so not to be listened to. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"It rather depends on your definition of wrong.
There can be no doubt that the Euro-skeptics political leaders have run a well disciplined long term misinformation campaign against the EU, and have successfully blamed the EU for policy decisions they have made that have strengthened and enriched their main backers. There can equally be no doubt that they have successfully used obfuscation, abrogation and delaying tactics to ensure that their opposition still has nothing tangible to unite around. This to me has the hallmarks of a near perfect asymmetric hearts and minds operation. The question is once the power transfer is complete will we have benevolent or malevolent rulers?
I fear the guiding force of brexit is malevolent. But apparently I am a bit of a whako so not to be listened to."
I don't think you're getting into the spirit of this.
The intention is not for people to offer a critique of the the opposition. It is to give a self-assessment of your own "side". |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It rather depends on your definition of wrong.
There can be no doubt that the Euro-skeptics political leaders have run a well disciplined long term misinformation campaign against the EU, and have successfully blamed the EU for policy decisions they have made that have strengthened and enriched their main backers. There can equally be no doubt that they have successfully used obfuscation, abrogation and delaying tactics to ensure that their opposition still has nothing tangible to unite around. This to me has the hallmarks of a near perfect asymmetric hearts and minds operation. The question is once the power transfer is complete will we have benevolent or malevolent rulers?
I fear the guiding force of brexit is malevolent. But apparently I am a bit of a whako so not to be listened to.
I don't think you're getting into the spirit of this.
The intention is not for people to offer a critique of the the opposition. It is to give a self-assessment of your own "side"."
Now there lies the problem. Willwill voted Leave! |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"It rather depends on your definition of wrong.
There can be no doubt that the Euro-skeptics political leaders have run a well disciplined long term misinformation campaign against the EU, and have successfully blamed the EU for policy decisions they have made that have strengthened and enriched their main backers. There can equally be no doubt that they have successfully used obfuscation, abrogation and delaying tactics to ensure that their opposition still has nothing tangible to unite around. This to me has the hallmarks of a near perfect asymmetric hearts and minds operation. The question is once the power transfer is complete will we have benevolent or malevolent rulers?
I fear the guiding force of brexit is malevolent. But apparently I am a bit of a whako so not to be listened to.
I don't think you're getting into the spirit of this.
The intention is not for people to offer a critique of the the opposition. It is to give a self-assessment of your own "side".
Now there lies the problem. Willwill voted Leave!"
Rather than point scoring against an individual, what's your response to the thread? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There is nothing wrong about Brexit
There was nothing wrong about the Leave campaign
No lies or exaggeration we're uttered at all
Everything & everyone associated with Leave was conducted to the highest level of integrity & honesty
Vive la Brexit  |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"There is nothing wrong about Brexit
There was nothing wrong about the Leave campaign
No lies or exaggeration we're uttered at all
Everything & everyone associated with Leave was conducted to the highest level of integrity & honesty
Vive la Brexit "
Please give them a chance to think. It's only been two years  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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They don't need to think
They've been told what to think
That's why you don't see any form of recognition to anything remotely bad about Brexit on here
Brexit & Bad do not coincide together in the same sentence
It doesn't exist
They have been told it doesn't exist
Vive la Brexit |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"They don't need to think
They've been told what to think
That's why you don't see any form of recognition to anything remotely bad about Brexit on here
Brexit & Bad do not coincide together in the same sentence
It doesn't exist
They have been told it doesn't exist
Vive la Brexit "
You are wrong. They have not been told what to think. They are free thinking and independent.
What's more they also know for certain that every other person who voted to leave has exactly the same perspective as they do and want exactly the same outcome.
They have carefully assessed the pros and cons and could write both down if they wanted to. They are just choosing not to.
Brexit means Brexit. That is clear and unambiguous  |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
I think it is interesting that farage distanced himself from the “big red bus” not 9 hrs after the result.... shame he wasn’t so forthright before
Also interesting to see gove distance himself from the immigration angles the campaign used, especially the vilification of immigrants and of turkey....
But I honestly don’t think you will get the brexiteer on the street saying there did nothing wrong or admitting to mistakes because they see it as budging on one thing meaning messing on everything....
And the type of Brexit we end up with being the one they wanted all along... even though the proposals have changed a thousand times
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it is interesting that farage distanced himself from the “big red bus” not 9 hrs after the result.... shame he wasn’t so forthright before
Also interesting to see gove distance himself from the immigration angles the campaign used, especially the vilification of immigrants and of turkey....
But I honestly don’t think you will get the brexiteer on the street saying there did nothing wrong or admitting to mistakes because they see it as budging on one thing meaning messing on everything....
And the type of Brexit we end up with being the one they wanted all along... even though the proposals have changed a thousand times
"
My memory is hazy but the red bus was the official campaign (so not farage) and the Turkish angle was more leave.eu (so not gove). The multi campaigns had the benefit of being able to present two messages without being accountable for the others. |
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"I think it is interesting that farage distanced himself from the “big red bus” not 9 hrs after the result.... shame he wasn’t so forthright before
Also interesting to see gove distance himself from the immigration angles the campaign used, especially the vilification of immigrants and of turkey....
But I honestly don’t think you will get the brexiteer on the street saying there did nothing wrong or admitting to mistakes because they see it as budging on one thing meaning messing on everything....
And the type of Brexit we end up with being the one they wanted all along... even though the proposals have changed a thousand times
"
so you think the brexitier on the street all think the same then all 17-4 million we all to thick to have minds of our own ? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I think it is interesting that farage distanced himself from the “big red bus” not 9 hrs after the result.... shame he wasn’t so forthright before
Also interesting to see gove distance himself from the immigration angles the campaign used, especially the vilification of immigrants and of turkey....
But I honestly don’t think you will get the brexiteer on the street saying there did nothing wrong or admitting to mistakes because they see it as budging on one thing meaning messing on everything....
And the type of Brexit we end up with being the one they wanted all along... even though the proposals have changed a thousand times
so you think the brexitier on the street all think the same then all 17-4 million we all to thick to have minds of our own ?"
Centaur insists that leavers want exactly the same thing and it was clear exactly what Brexit meant.
Argue with him. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
so you think the brexitier on the street all think the same then all 17-4 million we all to thick to have minds of our own ?"
Not at all...... but all the brexiteers are very keen to tell you all knew you what you were voting for and you were all voting for the same thing and the same deal.....
It would be actually nice if some one who voted to leave came out and said “the type of leave centy (as an example) wants is not the same type of leave that I want”....but it feels like everyone is being dragged over the cliff by the hardline few |
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"
so you think the brexitier on the street all think the same then all 17-4 million we all to thick to have minds of our own ?
Not at all...... but all the brexiteers are very keen to tell you all knew you what you were voting for and you were all voting for the same thing and the same deal.....
It would be actually nice if some one who voted to leave came out and said “the type of leave centy (as an example) wants is not the same type of leave that I want”....but it feels like everyone is being dragged over the cliff by the hardline few"
So you didn't vote then? Because you had no idea what you were voting for? And you contacted the campaigns, and your local MP and asked for clarification about what was being proposed? |
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"
so you think the brexitier on the street all think the same then all 17-4 million we all to thick to have minds of our own ?
Not at all...... but all the brexiteers are very keen to tell you all knew you what you were voting for and you were all voting for the same thing and the same deal.....
It would be actually nice if some one who voted to leave came out and said “the type of leave centy (as an example) wants is not the same type of leave that I want”....but it feels like everyone is being dragged over the cliff by the hardline few"
you say NOT AT ALL then say all the brexiteers are very keen to tell you lol atleast your not putting us all in the same basket lol |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
so you think the brexitier on the street all think the same then all 17-4 million we all to thick to have minds of our own ?
Not at all...... but all the brexiteers are very keen to tell you all knew you what you were voting for and you were all voting for the same thing and the same deal.....
It would be actually nice if some one who voted to leave came out and said “the type of leave centy (as an example) wants is not the same type of leave that I want”....but it feels like everyone is being dragged over the cliff by the hardline few you say NOT AT ALL then say all the brexiteers are very keen to tell you lol atleast your not putting us all in the same basket lol"
okay then... lets put it another way and ask you a question...
"does centy speak for your opinion?" |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ? "
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn |
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"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn"
You may not see yourself as a remainer but you clearly are one, you don't have to be very pragmatic to see that! Lol  |
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"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn"
I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed "
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
Now you mentioned about taking rules from another country - well that is exactly what happened in the British Empire we imposed our rules on them
Your not happy with it and they weren't happy with us!
Just a remark not a critism. I voted remain for the following reasons:
1. It would be easier for me as a migrant in France.
2. I gambled once before in my early 30's and lost everything! I learnt my lesson and brexit was too big a gamble.
3. The EU does need reform and having had a German mother I have had English and German influences and I prefer to be European.
The fact that no country has ever left before nobody knew or even knows what's going to happen. If it goes well we will all be happy - if it goes wrong all hell will break loose. Brexit was over simplified it was going to be easy. Unfortunately our current politicians couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The fact the vote was so close shows how divided the country is. But everyone will soon find out. |
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"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
Now you mentioned about taking rules from another country - well that is exactly what happened in the British Empire we imposed our rules on them
Your not happy with it and they weren't happy with us!
Just a remark not a critism. I voted remain for the following reasons:
1. It would be easier for me as a migrant in France.
2. I gambled once before in my early 30's and lost everything! I learnt my lesson and brexit was too big a gamble.
3. The EU does need reform and having had a German mother I have had English and German influences and I prefer to be European.
The fact that no country has ever left before nobody knew or even knows what's going to happen. If it goes well we will all be happy - if it goes wrong all hell will break loose. Brexit was over simplified it was going to be easy. Unfortunately our current politicians couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The fact the vote was so close shows how divided the country is. But everyone will soon find out."
very well said agree with lots of yr comments and if I ad been you I’d of voted remain I totally respect your opinion |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
Now you mentioned about taking rules from another country - well that is exactly what happened in the British Empire we imposed our rules on them
Your not happy with it and they weren't happy with us!
Just a remark not a critism. I voted remain for the following reasons:
1. It would be easier for me as a migrant in France.
2. I gambled once before in my early 30's and lost everything! I learnt my lesson and brexit was too big a gamble.
3. The EU does need reform and having had a German mother I have had English and German influences and I prefer to be European.
The fact that no country has ever left before nobody knew or even knows what's going to happen. If it goes well we will all be happy - if it goes wrong all hell will break loose. Brexit was over simplified it was going to be easy. Unfortunately our current politicians couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The fact the vote was so close shows how divided the country is. But everyone will soon find out."
I have a similar view. Except I was brought up in the city and left in the 90s to Yorkshire. Where I lived was a derilict. The government didn't invest in the poorer areas in East London as they did in other areas. What I saw much later was gentrification of areas making it easy to sell and to buy somewhere poorer. This worsened the lives of my old friends. Again it's not the fault of the EU and the governments social policies and their focus on a business city.
I left the UK to get a job. I fell in love with Amsterdam but hate to return to London. I wouldn't move back to London. But the north is great, but has a weaker job market.
I am a remainer because I want to live in the UK and Netherlands and move easily between the two. I believed a closer connection to the EU could create jobs in the north. Since this well paid jobs rely on globalisation (bigger market shares).
However, I do not justify the governments actions by being a remainer. Same for the EU. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
"
see as much as i agree with what you say... this sort of thing makes me scream... because the Type of jobs that you have up here are a lot of those jobs and they wouldn't be here without EU funding....
two cases in point....
1) the nissan factory in washington making all those lovely jukes and qashqai's.....
2) this hitachi factory in newton aycliffe making all those lovely new inter-city express trains.....
both are prime examples of EU cash and development funds being used to get those factories here.....
then you are also talking about the regeneration of newcastle and gateshead which has also had a shed load of EU money... the quayside wouldn't be what it is, neither the city centre! we wouldn't have the sage, or the baltic, all those new housing developements wouldn't have gone up.....
again all of that using EU regeneration fund....
and then the tyne and wear extension wouldn't have happened without EU funding help....(same actually with the manchester metrolink extensions)
the problem is the EU don't i think boast proudly enough about those projects they have helped.... and leave it to the other side to bash |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
This thread is in danger of becoming civilized and even informative
Is there any middle ground?
How does this work out now? Does the country remain permanently divided? Please don't tell me that we should get behind it because nobody knows what "it" is.
If it works out then no problem. If the gamble fails, then what? Do we ever recover as a divided country? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
see as much as i agree with what you say... this sort of thing makes me scream... because the Type of jobs that you have up here are a lot of those jobs and they wouldn't be here without EU funding....
two cases in point....
1) the nissan factory in washington making all those lovely jukes and qashqai's.....
2) this hitachi factory in newton aycliffe making all those lovely new inter-city express trains.....
both are prime examples of EU cash and development funds being used to get those factories here.....
then you are also talking about the regeneration of newcastle and gateshead which has also had a shed load of EU money... the quayside wouldn't be what it is, neither the city centre! we wouldn't have the sage, or the baltic, all those new housing developements wouldn't have gone up.....
again all of that using EU regeneration fund....
and then the tyne and wear extension wouldn't have happened without EU funding help....(same actually with the manchester metrolink extensions)
the problem is the EU don't i think boast proudly enough about those projects they have helped.... and leave it to the other side to bash"
When I used to travel around Europe extensively, major infrastructure works quite often used to have a EU sign and an explanation of funding on them.
Much rarer in this country, but whether this is a political decision or not, I'm not sure. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
Now you mentioned about taking rules from another country - well that is exactly what happened in the British Empire we imposed our rules on them
Your not happy with it and they weren't happy with us!
Just a remark not a critism. I voted remain for the following reasons:
1. It would be easier for me as a migrant in France.
2. I gambled once before in my early 30's and lost everything! I learnt my lesson and brexit was too big a gamble.
3. The EU does need reform and having had a German mother I have had English and German influences and I prefer to be European.
The fact that no country has ever left before nobody knew or even knows what's going to happen. If it goes well we will all be happy - if it goes wrong all hell will break loose. Brexit was over simplified it was going to be easy. Unfortunately our current politicians couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The fact the vote was so close shows how divided the country is. But everyone will soon find out."
Where do you think the EU needs reform? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
Now you mentioned about taking rules from another country - well that is exactly what happened in the British Empire we imposed our rules on them
Your not happy with it and they weren't happy with us!
Just a remark not a critism. I voted remain for the following reasons:
1. It would be easier for me as a migrant in France.
2. I gambled once before in my early 30's and lost everything! I learnt my lesson and brexit was too big a gamble.
3. The EU does need reform and having had a German mother I have had English and German influences and I prefer to be European.
The fact that no country has ever left before nobody knew or even knows what's going to happen. If it goes well we will all be happy - if it goes wrong all hell will break loose. Brexit was over simplified it was going to be easy. Unfortunately our current politicians couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The fact the vote was so close shows how divided the country is. But everyone will soon find out.
Where do you think the EU needs reform?"
On a lot of area's - it's like the NHS it was a good idea when it started but needs up dating for today's world.
CAP - needs to be revamped - but how is not easy. Big farmers benefit so the rich get richer.
Immigration needs reviewing - it's not fair that Greece, Italy & now Spain get flooded with mainly economic migrants. How it's solved isn't easy. We need to invest in Africa - improve things in their own country so they want to stay.
Those who destroy their documents so they can't be repatriated should be dealt with firmer - but how - I don't know I'm not an expert.
Economics wise - there should be a revamp. The rich northern
manufacturing countries as opposed to the "olive oil " southern countries. Maybe the strong countries have the euro and the weaker ones their own? I only did A level economics so not an expert.
Those countries like Poland and Hungary who are not towing the line in human rights need to be brought into line.
Anyone whose been on a committee or board of directors know how difficult it is getting everyone to agree. Each nation looks after its own interests - that's natural. WTO has 163 - so it takes years to get anything done!
But despite all that we have maintained peace in Europe. At least the EU is hitting big business when they do bad things - no other country is. Big business is important but so too are people. Change needs to happen - but it's how you action the change - that's what is important. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"NO he doesn’t _abio I have my own mind and opinions who speaks for you then ?
i think i am a weirdo in that as much as my views may sound like a remainer... i don't see myself as a remainer... i see myself as pragmatic
for me it only ever came down to one thing....
i just wanted brutal honesty!
i actually said this to leave activists when i was talking to them "if you wanted me to vote leave, all i ever asked is for someone on the leave side to be brutally honest and tell me the worst things that could happen if i voted leave...."
if i could then say "well i can live with that!" i would have voted leave
it was honestly that simple....
but not one person ever said "well the consequence could be blah blah blah"..... which is why i ended up voting remain
even now people like centy won't acknowledge anything bad and i don't think that helps the situation.....
after all you can't solve a problem/issue if you refuse to say it exists.... thats the pragmatic in me!
so since we are now having a conservation, how does your vision of "leave" differ from the hardline stance someone like centy (trying not to pick on him but he is the one that spouts the hardline party line the most often)
see.... this is the conversation i am most interesting in having.....i think this is where we actually learn I agree with something’s centu say and not on some other things think he gets a lot of shit shot at him in here but he’s entitled to his opinion same with u Fabio and bob and Too-hot and lots of others we agree on somethings and not on others but that’s life my reason was iv never agreed with any country making rules and laws for another country I know eu isn’t a country but same applies and I couldn’t see anything good coming from the amount of immagrants comeing over I just thought it was to many to soon If the government had got it down to the numbers they promised then maybe I’d of voted differently but like I say maybe I don’t think leaving will be as bad as some say on here can’t see stockpiling of food the army on the streets empty shelves in shops millions of job losses but tbh I’m the type of person who isn’t afraid of change the worst that can happen very rarely does it’s already been two yrs of uncertainty and nothing REALy as changed
Fair comment. As someone from the north east I understand how pissed off people are. I visited the region in March and nothing has charged. The old industries are long gone, and there is has been little progress. Not much wealth has moved north and improved things. That however isn t the EU's fault it's poor governance by respective governments for decades. I left the NE in the late 70's and glad I did find good employment elsewhere. What we need is good jobs- not zero hours jobs. High tech, manufacturing etc.
Now you mentioned about taking rules from another country - well that is exactly what happened in the British Empire we imposed our rules on them
Your not happy with it and they weren't happy with us!
Just a remark not a critism. I voted remain for the following reasons:
1. It would be easier for me as a migrant in France.
2. I gambled once before in my early 30's and lost everything! I learnt my lesson and brexit was too big a gamble.
3. The EU does need reform and having had a German mother I have had English and German influences and I prefer to be European.
The fact that no country has ever left before nobody knew or even knows what's going to happen. If it goes well we will all be happy - if it goes wrong all hell will break loose. Brexit was over simplified it was going to be easy. Unfortunately our current politicians couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The fact the vote was so close shows how divided the country is. But everyone will soon find out.
Where do you think the EU needs reform?"
You can have a look in the cognitive bias thread for my take and a few others.
No leaver opinions on Brexit downsides. Yours would be welcome |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Apparently, the MPs' report on "fake news" will include a dossier of Vote Leave misinformation.
Posts stating or implying:
* Turkey is about to become a member of the EU
* 76m Turks will want to move to the UK
* Iraqis and Syrians will be next to pour into the UK
* The EU takes £350m a week away from the NHS
* The NHS is failing because of migrants
* Unelected bureaucrats are imposing laws on the UK
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Apparently, the MPs' report on "fake news" will include a dossier of Vote Leave misinformation.
Posts stating or implying:
* Turkey is about to become a member of the EU
* 76m Turks will want to move to the UK
* Iraqis and Syrians will be next to pour into the UK
* The EU takes £350m a week away from the NHS
* The NHS is failing because of migrants
* Unelected bureaucrats are imposing laws on the UK
"
The point is, true or not this is what people have chosen to believe anyway. These adverts "confirm" what they "know" to be true anyway.
Many people in this forum continue to demonstrate this.
The question is, how representative are they of all voters? It's difficult to know. Also once people make a decision they do not want to be proved wrong. This also explains why the process of blaming remainers if Brexit failed has already started. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
The point is, true or not this is what people have chosen to believe anyway. These adverts "confirm" what they "know" to be true anyway.
Many people in this forum continue to demonstrate this.
The question is, how representative are they of all voters? It's difficult to know. Also once people make a decision they do not want to be proved wrong. This also explains why the process of blaming remainers if Brexit failed has already started."
It was no different, really, to a General Election, where political parties resort to gross exaggeration, manipulation and occasional lies to swing voters one way or another.
Government also engages in tricks designed to manipulate opinion - the "nudge unit" being the most obvious.
The Ministry of Defence engages in some interesting tactics, too.
So there is nothing new in the public swallowing BS hook, line and sinker.
The difference this time is it wasn't the Establishmnt doing the BS, but what might be seen as the anti-Establishment. And the MPs don't like that.
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