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Big EU fail
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?  |
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"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that? "
I thought the UK was leaving the EU though. Have you included the UK population of 65 million people in your 600 million figure? Shouldn't the real figure be 535 million people? Have you also included the UK GDP in your one third of the world's GDP assumption? If the UK is leaving the EU and the UK GDP leaves the deal then it won't be one third of the world's GDP will it.
Does the Japan/Eu trade deal include services of which the UK economy is around 80% services? On that basis then does this trade deal meet the uk's needs and is it in the uk's national interest?
How long has it taken the EU to negotiate this deal? Did they start negotiations in 2012 and has it taken them 6 years to do this deal? Could a country like the UK negotiate a much quicker deal with Japan on a bilateral 1 to 1 basis. Could the UK do a better deal tailored specific to the uk's needs and interests which includes services?
I know you were attempting sarcasm when you penned the title of this thread but "Big EU fail" isn't far from the truth when you look at it in more critical detail and start to pick holes in it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The most probable truth that will be attached to any future UK FTA especially if it does get services included will probably be a freedom of movement stipulation not much unlike we have already with the EU.
India have already mentioned very similar.
I wonder how well that would be received. |
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"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that? "
This is why so many anti capitalists voted leave. The world's gone money mad and needs to be reigned in. It's why the fat cats of the Tory party want brexit to fail. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
I thought the UK was leaving the EU though. Have you included the UK population of 65 million people in your 600 million figure? Shouldn't the real figure be 535 million people? Have you also included the UK GDP in your one third of the world's GDP assumption? If the UK is leaving the EU and the UK GDP leaves the deal then it won't be one third of the world's GDP will it.
Does the Japan/Eu trade deal include services of which the UK economy is around 80% services? On that basis then does this trade deal meet the uk's needs and is it in the uk's national interest?
How long has it taken the EU to negotiate this deal? Did they start negotiations in 2012 and has it taken them 6 years to do this deal? Could a country like the UK negotiate a much quicker deal with Japan on a bilateral 1 to 1 basis. Could the UK do a better deal tailored specific to the uk's needs and interests which includes services?
I know you were attempting sarcasm when you penned the title of this thread but "Big EU fail" isn't far from the truth when you look at it in more critical detail and start to pick holes in it. "
So it's a deal we don't want?
6 years is a very short period to conclude such a comprehensive agreement. The deal is there now. It's signed. We benefit from it immediately.
Saying that as we are leaving the EU and are therefore making the deal smaller is the most facile argument that I have heard on sometime. Giving up a done deal for one that is imaginary. Proclaiming that something COULD be better and COULD be faster is meaningless. Yes is could. It could equally be an agreement on far worse terms that take far longer to negotiate or no deal may ever materialise. That is also just as true isn't it Centaur?
Your expectations are genuinely bizarre if you expect things to happen faster. You have the patience of a child although I understand that you struggle with complexity requiring negotiation and consideration and compromise.
What do you you not like about this agreement? Is it better than the one that existed before? Is it better than the one between the USA and Japan?
I'm going to ask again, because you have failed again and again:
Why should any country give our smaller market better terms than they give the EU with more customers and more money? Why should they make more concessions to us than the EU?
You have proven time and time again that you cannot understand anyone else's point of view so my expectations of your ability to engage are low. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
This is why so many anti capitalists voted leave. The world's gone money mad and needs to be reigned in. It's why the fat cats of the Tory party want brexit to fail."
That may or may not be true. I've not seen any information to back that up. Possibly because the question hasn't been asked.
What is mad about this?
More interaction with people from other countries.
More common cause to work cooperatively.
You may not feel that you personally have benefited from these things but the world's poor really have. They are still poor, but so much less so.
Look up Hans Rosling. You'll be entertained at the very least if you watch some of his presentations. |
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I think some people with their shit tinted spectacles will try in vain to get to see any immediately beneficial arrangement as bad. Trying to sell the future UK imaginary deals as better is facile.
The UK should have an open vote upon the brexit offer, including the option to remain, 2018 provides greater knowledge and understanding of how the future could look, including the benefits of this EU/Japan deal. The ignorance of the past was not bliss. |
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"I think it's too late to remain isn't it? Wouldn't we have to apply to rejoin?
Not legally from the EU perspective. It would be easier for everyone if we stayed on the same terms."
Is there a process to unsign article 50? I know the back stop can be extended. But it has been signed. |
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Won't make an ounce of difference ....we are great country who will show the other eu sheep ..what a shit club they are in ....watch the others follow us in the not to distant future ....they all waiting to see how we get on ....check out Iceland how they now do as independents.. |
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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago
lytham st.annes |
"Won't make an ounce of difference ....we are great country who will show the other eu sheep ..what a shit club they are in ....watch the others follow us in the not to distant future ....they all waiting to see how we get on ....check out Iceland how they now do as independents.."
 |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Won't make an ounce of difference ....we are great country who will show the other eu sheep ..what a shit club they are in ....watch the others follow us in the not to distant future ....they all waiting to see how we get on ....check out Iceland how they now do as independents.."
Being part of a larger group doesn't make you less "great" unless you have very little confidence in yourself. Teams achieve more than individuals. That's why society exists.
Iceland went bankrupt in 2008.
How are they doing? What do they do. They are a small, isolated backwater. They are content, but they are not trying to be "great". |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I think it's too late to remain isn't it? Wouldn't we have to apply to rejoin?
Not legally from the EU perspective. It would be easier for everyone if we stayed on the same terms.
Is there a process to unsign article 50? I know the back stop can be extended. But it has been signed. "
It's a negotiation. If the negotiation takes us to remaining the EU can just say fine. The problem will be with the UK in this case. |
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"Won't make an ounce of difference ....we are great country who will show the other eu sheep ..what a shit club they are in ....watch the others follow us in the not to distant future ....they all waiting to see how we get on ....check out Iceland how they now do as independents.."
Are you seriously comparing the UK to Iceland. Iceland's population is smaller than that of Bristol ffs |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"We are leaving ...deal with it ."
Constructive 
Is it good that we are walking away from such a huge partnership agreement?
In 8 years Japan will have 0% tariffs on car imports to the EU.
Obviously, if they had a factory located locally they would save on transportation and it would make sense to continue to invest in it.
If they had a factory in Europe that would still be subject to a 10% tariff to most of the market why bother?
Should Nissan, Honda and Toyota reconsidering their investment in the UK something we just "deal with"? |
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"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
I thought the UK was leaving the EU though. Have you included the UK population of 65 million people in your 600 million figure? Shouldn't the real figure be 535 million people? Have you also included the UK GDP in your one third of the world's GDP assumption? If the UK is leaving the EU and the UK GDP leaves the deal then it won't be one third of the world's GDP will it.
Does the Japan/Eu trade deal include services of which the UK economy is around 80% services? On that basis then does this trade deal meet the uk's needs and is it in the uk's national interest?
How long has it taken the EU to negotiate this deal? Did they start negotiations in 2012 and has it taken them 6 years to do this deal? Could a country like the UK negotiate a much quicker deal with Japan on a bilateral 1 to 1 basis. Could the UK do a better deal tailored specific to the uk's needs and interests which includes services?
I know you were attempting sarcasm when you penned the title of this thread but "Big EU fail" isn't far from the truth when you look at it in more critical detail and start to pick holes in it.
So it's a deal we don't want?
6 years is a very short period to conclude such a comprehensive agreement. The deal is there now. It's signed. We benefit from it immediately.
Saying that as we are leaving the EU and are therefore making the deal smaller is the most facile argument that I have heard on sometime. Giving up a done deal for one that is imaginary. Proclaiming that something COULD be better and COULD be faster is meaningless. Yes is could. It could equally be an agreement on far worse terms that take far longer to negotiate or no deal may ever materialise. That is also just as true isn't it Centaur?
Your expectations are genuinely bizarre if you expect things to happen faster. You have the patience of a child although I understand that you struggle with complexity requiring negotiation and consideration and compromise.
What do you you not like about this agreement? Is it better than the one that existed before? Is it better than the one between the USA and Japan?
I'm going to ask again, because you have failed again and again:
Why should any country give our smaller market better terms than they give the EU with more customers and more money? Why should they make more concessions to us than the EU?
You have proven time and time again that you cannot understand anyone else's point of view so my expectations of your ability to engage are low."
Does the Japan/EU trade deal include services (of which the UK economy is around 80% services). A yes or no will do. 
And I wasn't making an argument that making the deal smaller would make it better, I was just pointing out the glaringly obvious huge errors in your simple minded OP.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Won't make an ounce of difference ....we are great country who will show the other eu sheep ..what a shit club they are in ....watch the others follow us in the not to distant future ....they all waiting to see how we get on ....check out Iceland how they now do as independents..
Being part of a larger group doesn't make you less "great" unless you have very little confidence in yourself. Teams achieve more than individuals. That's why society exists.
Iceland went bankrupt in 2008.
How are they doing? What do they do. They are a small, isolated backwater. They are content, but they are not trying to be "great"."
not only did iceland go bankrupt... iceland basically had to go begging to russian banks to refloat itself...
is that what you mean........ |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"We are leaving ...deal with it ."
interesting that someone from "durham" is so dismissive about this deal..... because there is a huge business in washington..... and another huge business in newton aycliffe that are actually going to be huge beneficaries.....
i wonder if you actually care about local jobs??? do you?
what did now does it is give some japanese business an op out to move eu business out of the uk without facing the penalties, so it could result in a downscale of some of those business's
the saving grace for washington for example is that jukes and qashqai's sell in the uk really well....... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They won't move because the costs of moving are enormous, and all they really care about is how efficient the plant is, and the Washington plant is very efficient."
Yes that's true for now though once the current models become dated will future investment continue to upgrade the lines... or simply start again somewhere else tarrif free ? |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that? "
|
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"They won't move because the costs of moving are enormous, and all they really care about is how efficient the plant is, and the Washington plant is very efficient."
yeah... one slight problem with that thesis...
80% of all cars made in the uk go overseas....
56% of those cars that go overseas go to the EU.....
if the tarriffs on those cars in effect is more than it costs to set up factory lines.... those jobs will eventually go overseas
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They won't move because the costs of moving are enormous, and all they really care about is how efficient the plant is, and the Washington plant is very efficient.
yeah... one slight problem with that thesis...
80% of all cars made in the uk go overseas....
56% of those cars that go overseas go to the EU.....
if the tarriffs on those cars in effect is more than it costs to set up factory lines.... those jobs will eventually go overseas
"
ohhh don't start coming out with this silly common sense Fabio.... you know they don't like it |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
I thought the UK was leaving the EU though. Have you included the UK population of 65 million people in your 600 million figure? Shouldn't the real figure be 535 million people? Have you also included the UK GDP in your one third of the world's GDP assumption? If the UK is leaving the EU and the UK GDP leaves the deal then it won't be one third of the world's GDP will it.
Does the Japan/Eu trade deal include services of which the UK economy is around 80% services? On that basis then does this trade deal meet the uk's needs and is it in the uk's national interest?
How long has it taken the EU to negotiate this deal? Did they start negotiations in 2012 and has it taken them 6 years to do this deal? Could a country like the UK negotiate a much quicker deal with Japan on a bilateral 1 to 1 basis. Could the UK do a better deal tailored specific to the uk's needs and interests which includes services?
I know you were attempting sarcasm when you penned the title of this thread but "Big EU fail" isn't far from the truth when you look at it in more critical detail and start to pick holes in it.
So it's a deal we don't want?
6 years is a very short period to conclude such a comprehensive agreement. The deal is there now. It's signed. We benefit from it immediately.
Saying that as we are leaving the EU and are therefore making the deal smaller is the most facile argument that I have heard on sometime. Giving up a done deal for one that is imaginary. Proclaiming that something COULD be better and COULD be faster is meaningless. Yes is could. It could equally be an agreement on far worse terms that take far longer to negotiate or no deal may ever materialise. That is also just as true isn't it Centaur?
Your expectations are genuinely bizarre if you expect things to happen faster. You have the patience of a child although I understand that you struggle with complexity requiring negotiation and consideration and compromise.
What do you you not like about this agreement? Is it better than the one that existed before? Is it better than the one between the USA and Japan?
I'm going to ask again, because you have failed again and again:
Why should any country give our smaller market better terms than they give the EU with more customers and more money? Why should they make more concessions to us than the EU?
You have proven time and time again that you cannot understand anyone else's point of view so my expectations of your ability to engage are low.
Does the Japan/EU trade deal include services (of which the UK economy is around 80% services). A yes or no will do.
And I wasn't making an argument that making the deal smaller would make it better, I was just pointing out the glaringly obvious huge errors in your simple minded OP.
"
Yes ot includes services  |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Don't worry all ...we will survive.and thrive..
.get behind our country and let's move forward ..away from the great blood suckers of the eu ...out is out let's move on ....and upward"
last time i checked... "hope" is not a strategy.....
thats the problem!!!! |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Don't worry all ...we will survive.and thrive..
.get behind our country and let's move forward ..away from the great blood suckers of the eu ...out is out let's move on ....and upward"
Yawn.
Empty slogans and phrases. Have you read Animal Farm?
I am behind the UK. That is why I will continue fight against Brexit because I think that it will have exactly the opposite effect to taking us onwards and upwards. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Never mentioned hope ....i look to the positive ....things ...we doing fine for all the turmoil at the mo"
Do you really?
Then you'll be able to list the positives of remaining in the EU.
We are, actually, doing not very well at all compared to before the referendum.
You carry on turd polishing |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ? "
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly. |
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"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly."
Were you also taught to be gracious in defeat, pity you didn't listen to that advice too!  |
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"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly."
Bullshit. People like you are hell bent on stopping Brexit at any cost, you will never reconcile yourself to Brexit no matter how conciliatory any Leaver is. The fact is you did lose, by over a million votes. There is a saying in football it goes....."A win, is a win, is a win". It doesn't matter how the win is achieved it could be a goal by deflection off someone's arse which gives the winning side a victory, it's still a win.
I was taught that losers should accept defeat with dignity and remainers have shown absolutely no dignity in defeat what so ever. You've had to be dragged kicking and screaming like spoilt little children who can't get their own way all through this Brexit process and you're still doing it now. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that? "
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
"
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!  |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly.
Were you also taught to be gracious in defeat, pity you didn't listen to that advice too! "
What have I said or done that is rude or abusive?
What have you been offended by my little cherub? |
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"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly.
Were you also taught to be gracious in defeat, pity you didn't listen to that advice too!
What have I said or done that is rude or abusive?
What have you been offended by my little cherub? "
I said nothing about being rude, abusive or being offended. You said about being magnanimous in victory, I just pointed out about being gracious in defeat, unfortunately you don't have a gracious bone in your body!
Fortunately I'm not your little cherub, that's your wife's job! |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly.
Bullshit. People like you are hell bent on stopping Brexit at any cost, you will never reconcile yourself to Brexit no matter how conciliatory any Leaver is. The fact is you did lose, by over a million votes. There is a saying in football it goes....."A win, is a win, is a win". It doesn't matter how the win is achieved it could be a goal by deflection off someone's arse which gives the winning side a victory, it's still a win.
I was taught that losers should accept defeat with dignity and remainers have shown absolutely no dignity in defeat what so ever. You've had to be dragged kicking and screaming like spoilt little children who can't get their own way all through this Brexit process and you're still doing it now. "
We'll go over it again shall we?
Democracy allows anybody to disagree with the outcome of any decision and peacefully oppose it.
When there is a general election nobody would expect the opposition to "get behind" the winning party and support their policies without question.
Why is a referendum different?
You are a Leaver and have been for many years. If you had lost the referendum by the same margin would you have stopped? Nigel Farage said that 48:52 loss would be unfinished business.
I have never demanded that anybody supports my views without question. I am regularly told that I should.
I have made some effort to understand why people voted to Leave and have openly acknowledged the flaws of the EU.
Not one Leave supporter has managed to do the same.
I consciously try answer questions as directly as I can, with as much information as possible. I do not evade, change the subject or bicker over details if I can avoid it.
Nothing that has been written in these forums about the glorious future of Brexit has been backed up by fact or logic. They are political dreams and aspirations and catch-phrases.
So yes, I will continue to oppose Brexit because I think that it is terrible for the country. |
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"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly."
it’s not really a fight then as you call it more of a bit of a moan nothing wrong with that tho but I wouldn’t call it a fight mate and tbh I don’t think yr that time-poor you spend a lot of time on here not aving a pop just saying |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly. it’s not really a fight then as you call it more of a bit of a moan nothing wrong with that tho but I wouldn’t call it a fight mate and tbh I don’t think yr that time-poor you spend a lot of time on here not aving a pop just saying "
If you want to call it "having a bit of a moan" then fine. Wasn't that exactly what UKIP was doing?
Wishy washy liberal types who quite like the idea of being nice and trying to work with reality reality are always going to find it difficult to counter those who will blame everything on one convenient hook and insist that all will be well once that's fixed.
It's a recurring theme throughout history?
In the spirit of reciprocity, had you any strong views on the EU before the referendum? Did you ever act on it before of during the campaign? |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
there is a lot of "tackling the man without the ball" going on here.....
I suppose that is one of the ways to divert and stiffle freedom of speech i suppose....
I hate that it is done... i don't normally report people or posts, but i am getting closer and closer to actually doing it at the moment
maybe its the only way people will learn....  |
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"I’m not having a pop but can I ask when you say that’s why you will continue to fight against brexit what are you doing to fight it exactly ?
Contributions to 38 degrees, Open Britain and the Liberal Democrats.
Unfortunately I am very time-poor so that's the best I can manage.
I also keep trying to understand why this is still so visceral. Trying to figure out what the compromise is. If one is not found this country will remain in crisis regardless of the outcome.
The on-going shouts to "get behind" Brexit and "stop moaning" and "you lost, get over it" do not lend themselves to reconciliation do they? It makes people dig their heels in.
I have not seen one conciliatory word from a Leave supporter anywhere. I was taught that victors are supposed to be magnanimous, especially when a win is achieved so narrowly. it’s not really a fight then as you call it more of a bit of a moan nothing wrong with that tho but I wouldn’t call it a fight mate and tbh I don’t think yr that time-poor you spend a lot of time on here not aving a pop just saying
If you want to call it "having a bit of a moan" then fine. Wasn't that exactly what UKIP was doing?
"
No it wasn't what Ukip were doing. People largely accepted the result of the 1970's referendum on membership of the common market all through the 80's, although there were some voices of discontent back then mainly from the hard left in the Labour party, from figures like Tony Benn, Michael Foot and funnily enough Jeremy Corbyn.
Ukip did not even come into existence until the 1990's, after the Maastrict treaty which changed the Common market which we joined into the modern day EU. The British people were never consulted on Maastrict in the 90's and should have been after such a fundamental change in the terms of membership. The Labour party also promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty in the 00's but bottled it after the french and the Dutch rejected the EU constitution. The EU constitution was 'repackaged' as the Lisbon treaty (which was the constitution just by another name) and forced through in France and Netherlands without the French and Dutch people having a chance to have another say/vote. It's this kind of undemocratic skullduggery which many people find utterly repugnant about the EU. It's issues such as these what ukip had brought to people's attention since they were formed in the 90's. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
|
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"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
"
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there! "
Why is it a straw man? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there! "
Just stating facts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ? "
I've yet to talk to one that would disabuse me of the notion. |
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"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ?
I've yet to talk to one that would disabuse me of the notion."
Ok, we’re all entitled to our opinion. I voted to remain, I’d never label someone ignorant for voting different to me, everybody’s situation is different, they may be voting for what they believe is best for them. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts."
It's a straw man because no one has claimed that a trade deal with the EU without those things is "impossible".
Instead, the poster created a straw man argument that people do say it's impossible, and then defeated it said straw man with an example of when it happened.
The EU has trade deals with countries all over the world that don't include the things mentioned above. The reason the UK can't have it, is that we (HM Government) are not looking for a trade deal. Instead, we want the benefits of a single market and a customs union, with it being called a customs union or single market.
We want a hybrid political union in which our courts follow laws and regulations written by the EU, whilst Britain has no input in writing them.
We want our workers to be able to live and work in the EU, and also have some of theirs to come here to work and study without a visa.
We want to be part of the European Arrest Warrant, but are upset that it's over seen by the ECJ, despite saying our courts will take note of their decisions.
There are numerous similar examples that have all been discussed multiple times on this forum already.
Thats why a Japan-EU is nothing like the relationship the government is trying to negotiate with the EU. |
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"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ?
I've yet to talk to one that would disabuse me of the notion.
Ok, we’re all entitled to our opinion. I voted to remain, I’d never label someone ignorant for voting different to me, everybody’s situation is different, they may be voting for what they believe is best for them. "
That's kind of a thing for some of the politics forum users. They have to believe that everyone else is incapable of forming an intelligent opinion. So they must be thick if their opinion differs. I'm actually embarrassed to be left wing and a "remainer" in case i get tarred with the same brush as these sanctimonious boors. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Don't worry all ...we will survive.and thrive..
.get behind our country and let's move forward ..away from the great blood suckers of the eu ...out is out let's move on ....and upward
last time i checked... "hope" is not a strategy.....
thats the problem!!!!"
But Fabio, hope is the only strategy left. Get behind it!!! |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ?
I've yet to talk to one that would disabuse me of the notion.
Ok, we’re all entitled to our opinion. I voted to remain, I’d never label someone ignorant for voting different to me, everybody’s situation is different, they may be voting for what they believe is best for them. "
Indeed, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And a difference of opinion should never be labeled as 'stupid'. My main issue, personally, is there are a number of people who are ignorant and revel in that ignorance. Any attempt to have any meaningful debate with them and they retort to glib soundbites and are unable to back up any of their assertions. They are unable to take on or process and evaluate any new information and stick to their position with such dogma no matter how ludicrous that position becomes.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
This effect is well documented in psychological literature about people anchoring themselves to publicly stated opinions.
Cue irrational defense of their position. |
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"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ?
I've yet to talk to one that would disabuse me of the notion.
Ok, we’re all entitled to our opinion. I voted to remain, I’d never label someone ignorant for voting different to me, everybody’s situation is different, they may be voting for what they believe is best for them.
Indeed, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And a difference of opinion should never be labeled as 'stupid'. My main issue, personally, is there are a number of people who are ignorant and revel in that ignorance. Any attempt to have any meaningful debate with them and they retort to glib soundbites and are unable to back up any of their assertions. They are unable to take on or process and evaluate any new information and stick to their position with such dogma no matter how ludicrous that position becomes.
-Matt"
That's true, but some of the brexit supporters are just as guilty of that... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's up to each individual member nation how it ratifies an EU treaty.
So, the idea that the EU is to blame for how nations decide to ratify things is wrong.
But, being a brexiteer is dependent on ignorance.
Sorry for being ignorant but I’d just like to clarify do you think everyone that voted to leave are ignorant ?
I've yet to talk to one that would disabuse me of the notion.
Ok, we’re all entitled to our opinion. I voted to remain, I’d never label someone ignorant for voting different to me, everybody’s situation is different, they may be voting for what they believe is best for them.
That's kind of a thing for some of the politics forum users. They have to believe that everyone else is incapable of forming an intelligent opinion."
When people spend their time making false statements over and over again, well, you'd have to be almost as ignorant to trot out some platitudes about how we should all just respect each other. |
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"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts."
Nail on the head. It is perfectly possible to have a FTA with our neighbours without all these aspects. As Canada did too.
Problem is, the EU doesn't want an existing member to go that route, as it doesn't suit their bigger agenda. |
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"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts.
Nail on the head. It is perfectly possible to have a FTA with our neighbours without all these aspects. As Canada did too.
Problem is, the EU doesn't want an existing member to go that route, as it doesn't suit their bigger agenda."
even Davis wanted Canada ++ as he recognised that an FTA like Canada's simply wasn't good enough |
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"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts.
Nail on the head. It is perfectly possible to have a FTA with our neighbours without all these aspects. As Canada did too.
Problem is, the EU doesn't want an existing member to go that route, as it doesn't suit their bigger agenda. even Davis wanted Canada ++ as he recognised that an FTA like Canada's simply wasn't good enough "
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts.
Nail on the head. It is perfectly possible to have a FTA with our neighbours without all these aspects. As Canada did too.
Problem is, the EU doesn't want an existing member to go that route, as it doesn't suit their bigger agenda. even Davis wanted Canada ++ as he recognised that an FTA like Canada's simply wasn't good enough
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible."
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. |
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"
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. "
Not really. Japan and Canada both signed wide ranging FTAs without agreeing everything. If the eu wants to sign an fta with an exiting member, they can. But do they want to? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts.
Nail on the head. It is perfectly possible to have a FTA with our neighbours without all these aspects. As Canada did too.
Problem is, the EU doesn't want an existing member to go that route, as it doesn't suit their bigger agenda. even Davis wanted Canada ++ as he recognised that an FTA like Canada's simply wasn't good enough
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. "
Apart from the 40 Billion, apparently.... |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Not really. Japan and Canada both signed wide ranging FTAs without agreeing everything. If the eu wants to sign an fta with an exiting member, they can. But do they want to?"
No, they just want the 40 Billion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Japan and the EU have signed it's trade deal.
It covers a third of the world's GDP and creates a market of 600 million people.
ONLY a third. ONLY 600 million.
Glad we're getting out now. Who wants that?
So they've signed a trade deal that includes;
No membership of the customs union
No membership of the single market
No Freedom of Movement
No Common Rule Book
No supremacy of the ECJ
So the impossible is possible....
What a beautiful straw man you've built there!
Just stating facts.
Nail on the head. It is perfectly possible to have a FTA with our neighbours without all these aspects. As Canada did too.
Problem is, the EU doesn't want an existing member to go that route, as it doesn't suit their bigger agenda. even Davis wanted Canada ++ as he recognised that an FTA like Canada's simply wasn't good enough
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Apart from the 40 Billion, apparently...."
Fair. I used an absolute. Was likely to come and bite me but I wanted to use the sound bite!
Many things are interlinked. It’s still complex. So I stand by my point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
40 billion isn't the huge, earth shattering amount of money you're pretending, especially when you're talking about entities the size of the EU and the UK.
For example, the UK GDP is 2.624 trillion, give or take.
That makes the "divorce bill" about 15.24% of GDP. (In reality, it's the "honour your fucking commitments" bill, but I digress)
Might make putting that number in perspective a bit easier. |
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"
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Apart from the 40 Billion, apparently....
Fair. I used an absolute. Was likely to come and bite me but I wanted to use the sound bite!
Many things are interlinked. It’s still complex. So I stand by my point. "
It's has complexity and also achievable, if both parties want to do it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Apart from the 40 Billion, apparently....
Fair. I used an absolute. Was likely to come and bite me but I wanted to use the sound bite!
Many things are interlinked. It’s still complex. So I stand by my point.
It's has complexity and also achievable, if both parties want to do it."
but it’s not as simple as a vanilla FTA. That was my only point on this. |
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"
Many things are interlinked. It’s still complex. So I stand by my point.
It's has complexity and also achievable, if both parties want to do it.but it’s not as simple as a vanilla FTA. That was my only point on this. "
Ok, I understand.
Some parts are more complex, some are a lot simpler as we are currently harmonized.
If Japan, along with its whale slautering fishing industry can do a deal, I'm sure it's achievable for us. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
We are linked to such a high complexity with the EU our requirements range well beyond a simple FTA with the EU, unlike Japan.
Then when the facts start to trickle out that not being a member of such an agreement or another will in the event of a no deal ending, all our agreements with the EU, create problems of not being able to do xyz like before then people start blaming the EU for it, when it's us walking away from these agreements. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"We are linked to such a high complexity with the EU our requirements range well beyond a simple FTA with the EU, unlike Japan.
Then when the facts start to trickle out that not being a member of such an agreement or another will in the event of a no deal ending, all our agreements with the EU, create problems of not being able to do xyz like before then people start blaming the EU for it, when it's us walking away from these agreements."
I know, it's absolutely crazy. It's like leaving the AA and then complaining they are punishing us by no longer fixing our car when we breakdown. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"40 billion isn't the huge, earth shattering amount of money you're pretending, especially when you're talking about entities the size of the EU and the UK.
For example, the UK GDP is 2.624 trillion, give or take.
That makes the "divorce bill" about 15.24% of GDP. (In reality, it's the "honour your fucking commitments" bill, but I digress)
Might make putting that number in perspective a bit easier."
It also less than annual interest payment made by the UK Government to service the £2 trillion of debt it has run up. |
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"40 billion isn't the huge, earth shattering amount of money you're pretending, especially when you're talking about entities the size of the EU and the UK.
For example, the UK GDP is 2.624 trillion, give or take.
That makes the "divorce bill" about 15.24% of GDP. (In reality, it's the "honour your fucking commitments" bill, but I digress)
Might make putting that number in perspective a bit easier.
It also less than annual interest payment made by the UK Government to service the £2 trillion of debt it has run up."
It might be worth dusting off the old calculator guys. 2.6 trillion is GDP in USD, so actually, it's about £2 trillion GBP. £40 billion isn't 15.24% of that, it's actually 2% .
Then, equating a payment to total gdp is misleading, as the money for that payment has to be in the hands of the government to make it. GDP is total money in the econmmy, not purely at the disposal of the government.
So, to the person who was 'pretending' £40 billion is a lot of money, I'd say it is a lot.
Unless you think 40 thousand lots of a million pounds isn't a lot of money. Or £1300 for each uk taxpayer isn't a lot of money. Or if you think the total defence budget at £40 billion isn't a lot of money either. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"40 billion isn't the huge, earth shattering amount of money you're pretending, especially when you're talking about entities the size of the EU and the UK.
For example, the UK GDP is 2.624 trillion, give or take.
That makes the "divorce bill" about 15.24% of GDP. (In reality, it's the "honour your fucking commitments" bill, but I digress)
Might make putting that number in perspective a bit easier.
It also less than annual interest payment made by the UK Government to service the £2 trillion of debt it has run up.
It might be worth dusting off the old calculator guys. 2.6 trillion is GDP in USD, so actually, it's about £2 trillion GBP. £40 billion isn't 15.24% of that, it's actually 2% .
Then, equating a payment to total gdp is misleading, as the money for that payment has to be in the hands of the government to make it. GDP is total money in the econmmy, not purely at the disposal of the government.
So, to the person who was 'pretending' £40 billion is a lot of money, I'd say it is a lot.
Unless you think 40 thousand lots of a million pounds isn't a lot of money. Or £1300 for each uk taxpayer isn't a lot of money. Or if you think the total defence budget at £40 billion isn't a lot of money either."
The point being while it might seem a lot to a single person, as people generally have a hard time visualising large numbers, it's not really that big when we look at the kinds of numbers that apply to entities like the EU and the UK.
And that's before we talk about your awful, awful maths. |
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"40 billion isn't the huge, earth shattering amount of money you're pretending, especially when you're talking about entities the size of the EU and the UK.
For example, the UK GDP is 2.624 trillion, give or take.
That makes the "divorce bill" about 15.24% of GDP. (In reality, it's the "honour your fucking commitments" bill, but I digress)
Might make putting that number in perspective a bit easier.
It also less than annual interest payment made by the UK Government to service the £2 trillion of debt it has run up.
It might be worth dusting off the old calculator guys. 2.6 trillion is GDP in USD, so actually, it's about £2 trillion GBP. £40 billion isn't 15.24% of that, it's actually 2% .
Then, equating a payment to total gdp is misleading, as the money for that payment has to be in the hands of the government to make it. GDP is total money in the econmmy, not purely at the disposal of the government.
So, to the person who was 'pretending' £40 billion is a lot of money, I'd say it is a lot.
Unless you think 40 thousand lots of a million pounds isn't a lot of money. Or £1300 for each uk taxpayer isn't a lot of money. Or if you think the total defence budget at £40 billion isn't a lot of money either.
The point being while it might seem a lot to a single person, as people generally have a hard time visualising large numbers, it's not really that big when we look at the kinds of numbers that apply to entities like the EU and the UK.
And that's before we talk about your awful, awful maths."
Feel free to correct the maths. Is the 15% correct then???
Do you think the UK defence budget is a small number or £1300 each taxpayer is a small number? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"40 billion isn't the huge, earth shattering amount of money you're pretending, especially when you're talking about entities the size of the EU and the UK.
For example, the UK GDP is 2.624 trillion, give or take.
That makes the "divorce bill" about 15.24% of GDP. (In reality, it's the "honour your fucking commitments" bill, but I digress)
Might make putting that number in perspective a bit easier.
It also less than annual interest payment made by the UK Government to service the £2 trillion of debt it has run up.
It might be worth dusting off the old calculator guys. 2.6 trillion is GDP in USD, so actually, it's about £2 trillion GBP. £40 billion isn't 15.24% of that, it's actually 2% .
Then, equating a payment to total gdp is misleading, as the money for that payment has to be in the hands of the government to make it. GDP is total money in the econmmy, not purely at the disposal of the government.
So, to the person who was 'pretending' £40 billion is a lot of money, I'd say it is a lot.
Unless you think 40 thousand lots of a million pounds isn't a lot of money. Or £1300 for each uk taxpayer isn't a lot of money. Or if you think the total defence budget at £40 billion isn't a lot of money either.
The point being while it might seem a lot to a single person, as people generally have a hard time visualising large numbers, it's not really that big when we look at the kinds of numbers that apply to entities like the EU and the UK.
And that's before we talk about your awful, awful maths.
Feel free to correct the maths. Is the 15% correct then???
Do you think the UK defence budget is a small number or £1300 each taxpayer is a small number?"
Yes. |
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"
And that's before we talk about your awful, awful maths.
Feel free to correct the maths. Is the 15% correct then???
Do you think the UK defence budget is a small number or £1300 each taxpayer is a small number?
Yes."
Are you answering 'yes' to them all?
e.g
£1300 each is a small number.
The UK defence budget is a small number
and
40 billion is 15% of 2 trillion.
.
Really?? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
And that's before we talk about your awful, awful maths.
Feel free to correct the maths. Is the 15% correct then???
Do you think the UK defence budget is a small number or £1300 each taxpayer is a small number?
Yes.
Are you answering 'yes' to them all?
e.g
£1300 each is a small number.
The UK defence budget is a small number
and
40 billion is 15% of 2 trillion.
.
Really??"
Yes. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"
And that's before we talk about your awful, awful maths.
Feel free to correct the maths. Is the 15% correct then???
Do you think the UK defence budget is a small number or £1300 each taxpayer is a small number?
Yes.
Are you answering 'yes' to them all?
e.g
£1300 each is a small number.
The UK defence budget is a small number
and
40 billion is 15% of 2 trillion.
.
Really??
Yes."
ok............ |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Not really. Japan and Canada both signed wide ranging FTAs without agreeing everything. If the eu wants to sign an fta with an exiting member, they can. But do they want to?"
A Free Trade Agreement is not the same as a Free Market.
A border and customs checks remain in place.
Only certain goods and services are covered.
Regulations are harmonised but any changes will require a negotiation.
A Free Market is just that. The standards and regulations are identical. Nothing needs to be checked or verified as the rules are applied at source. There is no difference between trading with the next town or the next country.
It is consequently far more efficient to have common regulatory bodies. If that happens then a bureaucracy is required to manage them. This requires democratic oversight. The EU is a consequence of that.
Overlaying that is the sensible, in my opinion, desire to both bind the continent together to prevent military conflict and create a geopolitical power block to represent European interests against those of other super powers.
Is there really a doubt that the EU is a superpower by any standard? It has never chosen to assert itself militarily beyond bur it certainly could. Economically and politically it certainly has.
An FTA does not include this dimension at all.
An FTA and a Free Market are not equivalent. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
The general point being made is that wide ranging FTAs, without the other 'necessities' are perfectly possible.
Which is fine, if your me just talking about trade. As someone earloer pointed out, when your deciding what kind of land border you want then as soon as you start to move away from hard you move into other areas. Ditto security.
Brexit is not just about unpicking trade agreements. It’s bigger than that. Yet everything is interlinked. Which is why nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Not really. Japan and Canada both signed wide ranging FTAs without agreeing everything. If the eu wants to sign an fta with an exiting member, they can. But do they want to?
No, they just want the 40 Billion."
The 40bn payment is a separate matter. We agreed to pay onto a budget from which certain longterm plans and commitments have been made.
That's a promise. Do we keep our promises and honour our agreements?
The terms of an FTA are not tied to this. Starting the talks are.
If you had a client that owed you money from a previous contract and were threatening not to pay would you be willing to start discussing a further deal with them? |
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