FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > $23 billion trade deal with China

$23 billion trade deal with China

By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

Trump the "successful" businessman and "dealmaker" didn't sign it though. He's doing the opposite.

It was a bilateral deal with Germany.

That, once again, begs the question that no Leaver has managed to answer. How come Germany is able to trade with China at this scale from within the EU but the UK needs to leave to accomplish the same thing? Is there a conspiracy against us? Are we being "held back"?

What will we do as a country once we leave the EU that will be so different?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We will be able to negotiate our own trade deals that will probably be not as good as we have now... that's what we will be able to do differently

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

I thought ex Brexit secretary David Davis explained this very well yesterday in his speech during the taxation trade bill debate. Remainers always say the EU trade deals are better because of how big the EU is, but it isn't always the case that size matters. As David Davis pointed out the EU is notoriously slow at negotiating it's trade deals because it has to find compromise amongst it's 27 members as those 27 members compete for their own national interests. The UK can be much more nimble on its own and do trade deals much quicker in the interests of the uk's needs. The EU's trade deals often have sub optimal outcomes and in particular to the UK the EU's trade deals least benefit the UK because they hardly ever include services and the UK economy is around 80% services based. Outside the EU the UK can focus it's trade deals more around services. What works for Germany doesn't work for the UK because the Germans economy is more a manufacturing based economy.

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You say we have this nimbleness the Eu doesn’t... but nothing so far has shown this. The Uk is still having internal debates and inter party negotiations to agree a position. The EU set their stall out months ago.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

And now another massive deal with Japan, maybe the Japanese didn't get the memo that the EU is about to collapse..

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By *eedsandyMan over a year ago

Leeds

"You say we have this nimbleness the Eu doesn’t... but nothing so far has shown this. The Uk is still having internal debates and inter party negotiations to agree a position. The EU set their stall out months ago. "

But so what?

The EU's position is unreasonable, and it's not even what the EU members want.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The speed, or lack thereof, is often brought up as a negative.

Reminds me of a classic exchange

"There's three ways to do things; the right way, the wrong way and the Max Power way!".

"Isn't that the wrong way?"

"Yeah, but faster!"

Seems there's a lot of people who'd rather trade deals be done the Max Power way, simply because the EU do things the right way.

Probably not a good look for what will be the weaker negotiating side post Brexit, but hey if brexit itself is predicated on nothing more than "sticking it to the EU" it's perfectly in character.

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

"And now another massive deal with Japan, maybe the Japanese didn't get the memo that the EU is about to collapse..

Those trade talks started in 2012, have stalled on occasions, and have only reached consensus due to the antics of a certain D Trump.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"And now another massive deal with Japan, maybe the Japanese didn't get the memo that the EU is about to collapse..

Those trade talks started in 2012, have stalled on occasions, and have only reached consensus due to the antics of a certain D Trump."

Probably because they are complicated. The agreement was reached before the Donald's antics. This is just the signing.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

But so what?

The EU's position is unreasonable, and it's not even what the EU members want."

"Unreasonable" because we don't get what we want? A subjective assessment is fairly meaningless.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"I thought ex Brexit secretary David Davis explained this very well yesterday in his speech during the taxation trade bill debate. Remainers always say the EU trade deals are better because of how big the EU is, but it isn't always the case that size matters. As David Davis pointed out the EU is notoriously slow at negotiating it's trade deals because it has to find compromise amongst it's 27 members as those 27 members compete for their own national interests. The UK can be much more nimble on its own and do trade deals much quicker in the interests of the uk's needs. The EU's trade deals often have sub optimal outcomes and in particular to the UK the EU's trade deals least benefit the UK because they hardly ever include services and the UK economy is around 80% services based. Outside the EU the UK can focus it's trade deals more around services. What works for Germany doesn't work for the UK because the Germans economy is more a manufacturing based economy.

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall. "

Naturally you completely missed the main point and Liam Fox has provided no explanation whatsoever. On this occasion it seems most people have also missed the point as they have been side-tracked by the first reply. So, here it is again:

How come Germany managed to close $20bn of trade deals with China whilst in the EU but we cannot?

Today. In the here and now. Not some mystical future.

I will address your other assertions when you can manage some sort of an explanation.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

I seem to remember that we did an arms deal with the Saudi's not so long ago and before that there was quite a large delegation went to China and did billions of £ worth of business.

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By *eedsandyMan over a year ago

Leeds

"I seem to remember that we did an arms deal with the Saudi's not so long ago and before that there was quite a large delegation went to China and did billions of £ worth of business. "

But the business is all done on EU terms. Not independently negotiated terms.

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By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years. "

Umm.... read that back to yourself. Maybe at the same time bear in mind that 1) article 50 was written by us and 2) May had complete control of the timing of when she invoked it. And rather than getting a plan together beforehand to assess what needed to be done, so went straight ahead and triggered it to appease the hardcore brexiteers like yourself.

-Matt

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"I seem to remember that we did an arms deal with the Saudi's not so long ago and before that there was quite a large delegation went to China and did billions of £ worth of business.

But the business is all done on EU terms. Not independently negotiated terms."

So? Why is that better?

Germany does far, far more trade with China than we do on exactly the same terms. Why is that?

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

But the business is all done on EU terms. Not independently negotiated terms."

I infer from this that you feel EU terms are imposed on the UK.

Each and every trade deal entered into by the EU needs approval of the member states, including the UK.

Every agreement is supported by the UK.

I take the point, however, that you think UK could get a better one by negotiating on behalf of itself, rather than 28 countries.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

-Matt"

1. Even if we had agreed a leaving position on week number 1 or the next day after article 50 was triggered it would still be a 2 year wait to leave, as stated in the EU treaties.

2. The EU referendum happened in June 2016. Article 50 wasn't triggered straight away because David Cameron bottled it and ran away. Theresa May came in and article 50 wasn't triggered until March 2017, a full 9 months AFTER the referendum!

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By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

-Matt

1. Even if we had agreed a leaving position on week number 1 or the next day after article 50 was triggered it would still be a 2 year wait to leave, as stated in the EU treaties.

Oh Centy, c’mon. Even you know that it is not ‘a 2 year wait’. And that is the maximum time. But so far we’ve done very little negotiating with the EU and mainly still trying to work out things within our own government.

And yes, Cameron bottled it. Good. And yes May took 9 months. That was only because she was held up by those ‘traitors of the country’, aka our democratic process. But still she didn’t have to trigger it then. She could have tried to work out what we wanted and what the impacts would be before then. And that twat Davies could have actually done his job and prepared some actual impact assemesements rather than fobbing everyone off and fancying about.

No, Centy, no matter how you try to spin it, the timetable of events was entirely in our control and our government decided to start the timer running before doing any actual planning.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall. "

It has to be successful it's had a debt of £1.8 trillion to service - £15bn a year just in interest payments or £25 per person living in the UK!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years. "

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

I would have also hoped the EU would negotiate sensibly. The EU have no intention of doing a deal as they reject any proposal put forward by the UK out of hand.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Has the EU really had much submitted to them to "reject out of hand" ?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

I would have also hoped the EU would negotiate sensibly. The EU have no intention of doing a deal as they reject any proposal put forward by the UK out of hand. "

Germany does far, far more trade with China than we do on exactly the same terms. Why is that?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

I would have also hoped the EU would negotiate sensibly. The EU have no intention of doing a deal as they reject any proposal put forward by the UK out of hand.

Germany does far, far more trade with China than we do on exactly the same terms. Why is that?"

Already answered, try reading my earlier post again, and try reading it properly this time.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Has the EU really had much submitted to them to "reject out of hand" ?"

Yes, all through phase 1 of negotiations.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has the EU really had much submitted to them to "reject out of hand" ?

Yes, all through phase 1 of negotiations. "

You've said yourself a while back that phase one had been concluded & that T May & co we're doing a sterling job etc moving onto phase 2 ...the 2 comments don't really sit with each other to be honest Centaur.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Has the EU really had much submitted to them to "reject out of hand" ?

Yes, all through phase 1 of negotiations.

Yes phase 1 has been concluded but all the way through it the EU procrastinated, delayed and rejected proposal after proposal put forward by the UK. In typical EU fashion they left it until the very last minute to make an agreement on phase 1. It's just the way the EU does its business.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

I would have also hoped the EU would negotiate sensibly. The EU have no intention of doing a deal as they reject any proposal put forward by the UK out of hand.

Germany does far, far more trade with China than we do on exactly the same terms. Why is that?

Already answered, try reading my earlier post again, and try reading it properly this time. "

No Centaur. You haven't.

The EU has no free trade agreement with China. We are not constrained in trading in services any more or less than Germany is in manufacturing.

So, once again, why can we not negotiate as successfully with China under exactly the same terms as Germany?

Do you not understand the question?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

I would have also hoped the EU would negotiate sensibly. The EU have no intention of doing a deal as they reject any proposal put forward by the UK out of hand.

Germany does far, far more trade with China than we do on exactly the same terms. Why is that?

Already answered, try reading my earlier post again, and try reading it properly this time.

No Centaur. You haven't.

The EU has no free trade agreement with China. We are not constrained in trading in services any more or less than Germany is in manufacturing.

So, once again, why can we not negotiate as successfully with China under exactly the same terms as Germany?

Do you not understand the question?"

The UK secured a trade deal worth £9bn in January 2018 with China.

Wasn't that a successful negotiation?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

So it’s agreed we’re leaving then ?

the will of the people has been delivered !

But given article 50 also talks about negotiation I would have hoped we’d give ourselves a bit of time to negotiate the terms of leaving.

I would have also hoped the EU would negotiate sensibly. The EU have no intention of doing a deal as they reject any proposal put forward by the UK out of hand.

Germany does far, far more trade with China than we do on exactly the same terms. Why is that?

Already answered, try reading my earlier post again, and try reading it properly this time.

No Centaur. You haven't.

The EU has no free trade agreement with China. We are not constrained in trading in services any more or less than Germany is in manufacturing.

So, once again, why can we not negotiate as successfully with China under exactly the same terms as Germany?

Do you not understand the question?

The UK secured a trade deal worth £9bn in January 2018 with China.

Wasn't that a successful negotiation?"

Good. You got there.

Obviously not as big, but pretty big. Why not as big? Why is our on-going trade with them a tiny fraction of Germany's?

How is being in the EU handicapping our ability to trade with China if we can do deals like this? What is preventing us now from doing as well as Germany?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Nothing

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Having a tiny manufacturing base compared to Germany will be the main reason.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"Having a tiny manufacturing base compared to Germany will be the main reason."

That doesn't prevent us from doing service sector deals.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Having a tiny manufacturing base compared to Germany will be the main reason.

That doesn't prevent us from doing service sector deals."

It does if the Chinese do not want them.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"Having a tiny manufacturing base compared to Germany will be the main reason.

That doesn't prevent us from doing service sector deals.

It does if the Chinese do not want them. "

Then how will leaving the EU help?

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

Rejoice, rejoice!

The good ship Britannia is sailing under her own steam at last.

The UK signed its first trade deals as a nation independent of the EU.

With six countries in southern Africa.

What new standard are we setting.

Er, none.

These deals are . . . exact replicas of the existing trade deals between those countries and the EU.

Rejoice, rejoice, we're free!

lolololololol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Rejoice, rejoice!

The good ship Britannia is sailing under her own steam at last.

The UK signed its first trade deals as a nation independent of the EU.

With six countries in southern Africa.

What new standard are we setting.

Er, none.

These deals are . . . exact replicas of the existing trade deals between those countries and the EU.

Rejoice, rejoice, we're free!

lolololololol

Lol that's big news

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And now another massive deal with Japan, maybe the Japanese didn't get the memo that the EU is about to collapse..

Those trade talks started in 2012, have stalled on occasions, and have only reached consensus due to the antics of a certain D Trump.

Probably because they are complicated. The agreement was reached before the Donald's antics. This is just the signing."

Tbh 6 years to get a deal sorted between a very developed and industrial country like Japan and a block of well to similarly developed countries is fast given all the legalities which need to be hashed out.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has the EU really had much submitted to them to "reject out of hand" ?

Yes, all through phase 1 of negotiations. "

And why did they reject them? Because they know they have the political and economic mass to reject us right now. Grind us down so that the deal they offer us works for them

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I seem to remember that we did an arms deal with the Saudi's not so long ago and before that there was quite a large delegation went to China and did billions of £ worth of business.

But the business is all done on EU terms. Not independently negotiated terms."

And all the benefit went to the EU and the UK got nothing? I can't believe what you have just said - keep taking the tablets it's bound to get better!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall. "

Actually it doesn't but put that aside for the moment. If Switzerland can do trade deals with China and others while still being a member of EFTA and the Single Market why do we have leave both in order to do them?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

But so what?

The EU's position is unreasonable, and it's not even what the EU members want."

Maybe could explain in what way the EU is being so unreasonable. As far as I can see the EU is simply doing what's best for the EU and what many Remainers said they would do. There never was a cake and eat it option available.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"And now another massive deal with Japan, maybe the Japanese didn't get the memo that the EU is about to collapse..

Those trade talks started in 2012, have stalled on occasions, and have only reached consensus due to the antics of a certain D Trump."

6 years is pretty fast for any trade deal, never mind a comprehensive one. Most take 10 years or more.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

But so what?

The EU's position is unreasonable, and it's not even what the EU members want.

Please get that message over the the remain Prime minister Theresa May, she seems to think she can have cake and eat it which is what the chequers deal is. The EU won't accept it and real brexiters like Farage, Rees Mogg and Boris want a clean break brexit.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years. "

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Has the EU really had much submitted to them to "reject out of hand" ?

Yes, all through phase 1 of negotiations.

And why did they reject them? Because they know they have the political and economic mass to reject us right now. Grind us down so that the deal they offer us works for them"

It's been proven to be one big bluff on the EU's part though. Insider information leaked from within the EU has now been reported to show the EU's no deal planning is very similar to the uk's. They will keep goods flowing over borders and ports with a nod and a wink because they don't want 20 mile tailbacks in France anymore than we want them in Dover.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey."

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall.

Switzerland accepts free movement from the EU, we want to end that so Switzerland type deal/arrangement won't work for the UK.

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By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

A clean Brexit is not good. It is the worst thing that will happen to the UK. Mark my words you will see. It's not good for businesses more red tape and extra costs.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

But so what?

The EU's position is unreasonable, and it's not even what the EU members want.

Whilst TMs deal is probably the best deal we could probably get I agree with you. It's a shit deal and won't be / hasn't been accepted by the EU. So that's dead. Now tell us more about what Fararge, Mogg and Boris mean by a clean break.

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

I don't remember a no deal Brexit (anything but clean) as being an option presented as even vaguely likely:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534802

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers."

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

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By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

Well we are going to gain a lot with a deal from Africa. It's a joke Brexit. Mind you so are Brexiters in the tory party.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall.

Switzerland accepts free movement from the EU, we want to end that so Switzerland type deal/arrangement won't work for the UK."

Where's the democratic mandate for that? The referendum said leave or Remain in the EU. It didn't say anything about free movement. Switzerland is not in the EU is it?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

This is from the vite leave site;

If we Vote Leave on 23 June, the Government will need a roadmap to implement the policy voted for by the public.

Vote Leave believes there should be 1) a negotiation strategy for the informal talks that will precede the formal negotiations leading to a new UK-EU treaty, 2) immediate legislation in the current session of Parliament and, 3) a framework for legislation and policy decisions between 2016 and 2020 of which the centrepiece is the repeal by 2020 of the European Communities Act 1972 (ECA). We can also start negotiating new trade deals to promote free trade before we have left the EU.

The Government should outline to Parliament the legislative steps needed to give effect to the public’s vote. Flexibility will be vital. There is no need to rush the process. The precise details and the exact timing of the final settlement will only be clear when the Prime Minister’s new negotiating team engages and negotiations begin.

Given the importance of securing a good deal in the national interest and the cross-party nature of the Leave campaign we believe the Government should invite figures from other parties, business, the law and civil society to join the negotiating team. There is a precedent for broad-based representation in talks such as these. The UK delegation which attended talks on the original EU Constitution included a Conservative MP, David Heathcoat-Amory and Labour’s Gisela Stuart MP, now Chair of Vote Leave.

The ECA should, of course, be amended quickly but should not be repealed in full until the formal negotiations are complete and the new UK-EU Treaty is clear. When the ECA is repealed Parliament will decide carefully which areas of existing EU law should a) be kept, b) be amended and c) be removed.

It is only after informal negotiations with both other EU members and the Commission that issues such as whether and how to use Article 50 will be clear. It makes no sense to trigger Article 50 immediately after the 23 June vote and before extensive preliminary discussions.

Funding to organisations from the EU will continue unaffected as the negotiations happen and the Government should continue that funding until the end of the Parliament in 2020.

It will be possible to negotiate a new settlement with the EU, including a UK-EU free trade deal, by the next general election in May 2020. This is mainly because 1) there is already tariff-free trade between the UK and the EU and 2) there is already regulatory equivalence, so the main stumbling blocks to negotiating a trade agreement are absent. It is also in all countries’ economic and political interests for there to be a friendly deal that will increase and improve international cooperation.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '"

It's exactly as the official vote leave campaign stated. It means leaving the single market and the customs union. It means ending free movement of people. It means ending the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK. It means having the ability to do own own trade deals. If the EU don't want a deal on those terms then we should leave with no deal and impose those terms anyway. Those should have been Theresa May's red lines but as Rees Mogg put it she has turned them into pink lines.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Well we are going to gain a lot with a deal from Africa. It's a joke Brexit. Mind you so are Brexiters in the tory party. "

As are the ones in the Labour party but hey, hoe, let's stay focused on BREXIT rather than whether Tory BREXITers are a bigger joke than Labour BREXITers. We can have that fight after next March.

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By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

You mean the lies of the leave campaign.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Much smaller countries do better trade deals than the larger EU an example being Switzerland which has better and more trade deals than the EU overall.

Switzerland accepts free movement from the EU, we want to end that so Switzerland type deal/arrangement won't work for the UK.

Where's the democratic mandate for that? The referendum said leave or Remain in the EU. It didn't say anything about free movement. Switzerland is not in the EU is it?"

The democratic mandate for it is from both the referendum and the general election. The official vote leave campaign said free movement of people must end. The Conservative party manifesto at the general election also had a commitment to cut immigration to the tens of thousands.

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By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS. "

It's also led to depression of UK workers wages, increased pressure and demand on public services like the NHS and GP surgeries, limited school places, etc and has put up house prices and rents as supply has not kept up with demand from the influx of numbers. I'd say it's caused quite a bit of damage.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

How does Spain cope with an influx of migrants from the UK?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said."

If you're referring to what EasyUk posted earlier he has been selective in what he chose to post here. I joined vote leave as a volunteer so I know what the campaign material said during the referendum and what was printed on the campaign leaflets put through letterboxes was what i just outlined for you in the post you replied to.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Are these the real reasons for stopping free movement or just the excuse to use free movement as an argument for BREXIT? I ask because over the last two years every time you've used those excuses people have shown that they are all wrong but yet you still continue to quote them?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

Nope. I posted the entire page apart from a quote at the end.

I don't play the game the way you do.

Nothing in the campaign indicated that leaving with no deal or trading on WTO rules or leaving international regulatory bodies as far as I can see.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

Nope. I posted the entire page apart from a quote at the end.

I don't play the game the way you do.

Nothing in the campaign indicated that leaving with no deal or trading on WTO rules or leaving international regulatory bodies as far as I can see."

The Vote Leave campaign material (leaflets) said vote to leave the EU to....

Leave the single market and the customs union.

End free movement.

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Have the ability to do our own trade deals.

These things were also said by Vote Leave representatives in television and radio interviews during the referendum campaign.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

So basically what you're saying is that Vote.Leave said different things to different people in different places. In effect that Vote.Leave told people what they wanted to hear. To the Eurosceptic pragmatist it said what EasyUk quoted from their web site but to the swivel eyed Europhobes it said what you're saying it said.

So which is the mandate? What EasyUk quoted from their web site or what you pushed through the letter boxes? It can't be both.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do. "

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

The Vote Leave campaign material (leaflets) said vote to leave the EU to....

Leave the single market and the customs union.

End free movement.

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Have the ability to do our own trade deals.

These things were also said by Vote Leave representatives in television and radio interviews during the referendum campaign. "

too right... leave means leave to everything...

as you are finding out about galileo, and as you are about to find found about Erasmus, and you are going to find out about Eurotom, and Europol, and Openskies, and a million other things... financial passporting as another example....

I am glad you put all that in the pamphlets... oh... but you didn't.....

yep... take back control of our borders, even though the only land border you have with the EU you don't really want to close..... is that about right???

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

Nope. I posted the entire page apart from a quote at the end.

I don't play the game the way you do.

Nothing in the campaign indicated that leaving with no deal or trading on WTO rules or leaving international regulatory bodies as far as I can see.

The Vote Leave campaign material (leaflets) said vote to leave the EU to....

Leave the single market and the customs union.

End free movement.

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Have the ability to do our own trade deals.

These things were also said by Vote Leave representatives in television and radio interviews during the referendum campaign. "

No deal

WTO trade rules

Leaving international regulatory bodies without our own to replace them

Anything in your leaflets about that?

Radio?

TV?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

Nope. I posted the entire page apart from a quote at the end.

I don't play the game the way you do.

Nothing in the campaign indicated that leaving with no deal or trading on WTO rules or leaving international regulatory bodies as far as I can see.

The Vote Leave campaign material (leaflets) said vote to leave the EU to....

Leave the single market and the customs union.

End free movement.

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Have the ability to do our own trade deals.

These things were also said by Vote Leave representatives in television and radio interviews during the referendum campaign. "

So what they said on their web site wasn't true. Is that what you're saying?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?"

Migration Watch is a limited company not a charity as independent groups usually are.

This means that they publish there accounts but do not have to disclose who funds them.

Draw your own conclusions.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

Nope. I posted the entire page apart from a quote at the end.

I don't play the game the way you do.

Nothing in the campaign indicated that leaving with no deal or trading on WTO rules or leaving international regulatory bodies as far as I can see.

The Vote Leave campaign material (leaflets) said vote to leave the EU to....

Leave the single market and the customs union.

End free movement.

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Have the ability to do our own trade deals.

These things were also said by Vote Leave representatives in television and radio interviews during the referendum campaign.

So what they said on their web site wasn't true. Is that what you're saying?

No. How did you work that out????

It's entirely possible to do what it says on the website while also staying true to the objectives I laid out as stated on the leaflets.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

they like to peddle the NHS myth.... the truth is they are more likely to be treated by someone from another EU country then you be next to an EU citizen requiring treatment........

also... because EU citizens cant claim any work based benefits for 2 years... if they are living somewhere it is more more likely to be in Private accomodation.... so the house prices and Rent stuff in itself is a red herring........

UK people buying 2nd homes is more of a strain on housing than EU citizens are.....

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?"

By the same token I could just as easily throw the accusation that bodies like the CBI are unashamedly pro EU biased. It doesn't stop remainers on here making reference to them on other threads though.

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By *bandjam91Couple over a year ago

London

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Are they biased or do they perhaps just understand business? You know, being the CBI and all?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Are they biased or do they perhaps just understand business? You know, being the CBI and all?"

Are Migrationwatch biased or do they just understand immigration/emigration? You know, being Migrationwatch and all.

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By *bandjam91Couple over a year ago

London

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Are they biased or do they perhaps just understand business? You know, being the CBI and all?

Are Migrationwatch biased or do they just understand immigration/emigration? You know, being Migrationwatch and all. "

The difference is that Migrationwatch have clearly been setup to campaign against migration. The CBI on the other hand are an existing organisation commenting on an issue that affects their membership.

I could setup "Brexitwatch" tomorrow and call myself an independent think tank. Would that make me unbiased?

Honestly, can you just try thinking your arguments through for a minute?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

It wouldn't have mattered how quick the UK settled it's position as the Article 50 timetable for leaving as stated in the EU treaties is 2 years.

It might have been a good idea to settle our position before actually triggering article 50 then. It's normal better to know your destination before you set out on a journey.

My position has always been the same I want a clean Brexit. Many Leave supporters all over the country also thought this was what Theresa May wanted, she then decided to change her mind at chequers.

But what does a clean BREXIT mean? Or is all we're going to get is ' a clean BREXIT means a clean BREXIT '

Have you actually read the Vote.Leave web site and what they said they would do in the event that Leave won? If you do you will see that it bares no relation to what you've just said.

Nope. I posted the entire page apart from a quote at the end.

I don't play the game the way you do.

Nothing in the campaign indicated that leaving with no deal or trading on WTO rules or leaving international regulatory bodies as far as I can see.

The Vote Leave campaign material (leaflets) said vote to leave the EU to....

Leave the single market and the customs union.

End free movement.

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Have the ability to do our own trade deals.

These things were also said by Vote Leave representatives in television and radio interviews during the referendum campaign.

So what they said on their web site wasn't true. Is that what you're saying?

No. How did you work that out????

It's entirely possible to do what it says on the website while also staying true to the objectives I laid out as stated on the leaflets. "

No deal

WTO trade rules

Leaving international regulatory bodies without our own to replace them

Anything in your leaflets about that?

Radio?

TV?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

The CBI is set up and funded by businesses to represent their interests.

Who funds Migrationwatch and for who's interests?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

I wouldn't claim that the CBI was unbiased on the EU issue. However there is a difference. The CBI is set up to represent the interests of businesses. It has concluded that BREXIT is bad for business. It wasn't set up to oppose BREXIT it opposed BREXIT because it's set up to represent the interests of businesses.

You could argue the same about MigrationWatch UK, in that it concludes that BREXIT will further it's position on migration but you cannot maintain that MigrationWatch is independent on migration when it was set up specifically to reduce migration.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Migrationwatch wasn't set up to support Brexit though. It was set up years before a referendum was even a possibility. It was set up in October 2001 to be precise.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Migrationwatch wasn't set up to support Brexit though. It was set up years before a referendum was even a possibility. It was set up in October 2001 to be precise. "

I agree but it's not independent on migration, which, as you said it was an independent body that supports what you said on immigration, is the issue here.

Anyway it's a bit irrelevant to the main question. Can you remind me again which Vote.Leave BREXIT policy is the one you claim the referendum gave a mandate for; the Eurosceptic pragmatic one on their web site or the swivel eyed Europhobe one you pushed through people's letter boxes?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Migrationwatch wasn't set up to support Brexit though. It was set up years before a referendum was even a possibility. It was set up in October 2001 to be precise. "

Who funds Migrationwatch and for who's interests?

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By *asyuk OP Man over a year ago

West London

No deal

WTO trade rules

Leaving international regulatory bodies without our own to replace them

Anything in your Leave leaflets about that?

Radio?

TV?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well free movement has done no harm. We need these Eu citizens for our farmers for picking crops, hospitality trade and the NHS.

Independent bodies like Migrationwatch UK back up what I say. You may have a different opinion, I'm stating my opinion on it as I'm free to do.

Century we've argued and sometimes agreed on this site now for getting on to 5 years now. Let's not try and pull the wool over each others eyes now.

You can't seriously believe that MigrationWatch UK is in anyway unbiased, neutral and by extrapolation independent on the issue of migration?

Are they biased or do they perhaps just understand business? You know, being the CBI and all?

Are Migrationwatch biased or do they just understand immigration/emigration? You know, being Migrationwatch and all. "

Migrationwatch actively campaigns against the levels of immigration, so no, they are not unbiased, they have their agenda set out.

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