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If it wasn't for the SNP..
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Probably not. I've not checked the numbers for the most recent elections, but over the last 60 or 70 years Scottish election results have only significantly influenced election results on 2 occasions if I recall correctly. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
No. Because Labour still would not have a majority if you added the SNP seats to their total.
Scotland did have a different effect on the General Election, though.
Ruth Davidson took 13 seats for the Tories, up from 1.
Without those seats, a non-Tory coalition may have been in power now.
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"No. Because Labour still would not have a majority if you added the SNP seats to their total.
Scotland did have a different effect on the General Election, though.
Ruth Davidson took 13 seats for the Tories, up from 1.
Without those seats, a non-Tory coalition may have been in power now.
"
Sorry about that - wisnae me! a big boy did it and ran away! |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"No. Because Labour still would not have a majority if you added the SNP seats to their total.
Scotland did have a different effect on the General Election, though.
Ruth Davidson took 13 seats for the Tories, up from 1.
Without those seats, a non-Tory coalition may have been in power now.
"
this is the answer......  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Labour have no one but themselves to blame for not winning the ge they are hated in scotland and bit in the papers today saying they will lose all seats at next election to snp |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Labour have no one but themselves to blame for not winning the ge they are hated in scotland and bit in the papers today saying they will lose all seats at next election to snp"
actually in england and in wales labour made up seats on the conservatives...
it could be argued that the SNP's single minded drive for independence drove people in parts of scotland to vote for the unionist conservatives
sturgeon is a very good debater but the one person who actually stands with her toe to toe well in uk politics is ruth davidson |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Labour have no one but themselves to blame for not winning the ge they are hated in scotland and bit in the papers today saying they will lose all seats at next election to snp
actually in england and in wales labour made up seats on the conservatives...
it could be argued that the SNP's single minded drive for independence drove people in parts of scotland to vote for the unionist conservatives
sturgeon is a very good debater but the one person who actually stands with her toe to toe well in uk politics is ruth davidson"
There was alot of tactical voting with labour telling their supporters to vote tory to keep snp from winning the seat and it backfired on them ,as for ruth davidson the first minister makes her look a fool most wks at first ministers questions she has no policies apart from no to independence |
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"Labour have no one but themselves to blame for not winning the ge they are hated in scotland and bit in the papers today saying they will lose all seats at next election to snp
actually in england and in wales labour made up seats on the conservatives...
it could be argued that the SNP's single minded drive for independence drove people in parts of scotland to vote for the unionist conservatives
sturgeon is a very good debater but the one person who actually stands with her toe to toe well in uk politics is ruth davidson"
It could also be argued that Scottish Labours single-minded and unreasoning hatred of the SNP drove voters away from them - or vote tactically to keep the SNP out.
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Not on their own, but if added to the nationalist vote in Wales and Northern Ireland then it is pretty much a certainty that nationalist votes have gifted many general election victories to the Tories over the last 40 years. Of course the real irony of this is that Tory policies and doctrine have fueled nationalism and that Tories have gained power from that nationalism.
In fact it would be funny if it were not so sad.  |
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"Not on their own, but if added to the nationalist vote in Wales and Northern Ireland then it is pretty much a certainty that nationalist votes have gifted many general election victories to the Tories over the last 40 years. Of course the real irony of this is that Tory policies and doctrine have fueled nationalism and that Tories have gained power from that nationalism.
In fact it would be funny if it were not so sad. "
absolute nonsense - throughout the eighties the SNP never held more than 3 seats at Westminster. It wasn't until 97 that started to change. Until that point - before Blairism - Scotland was staunchly Labour.
While the Tories may be our problem (they are everyones problem) the suggestion that they are somehow Scotland's fault is frankly ridiculous |
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"While the Tories may be our problem (they are everyones problem) the suggestion that they are somehow Scotland's fault is frankly ridiculous"
It's wonderful to see that a nationalist north of the border is so self absorbed that they are able to totally ignore what I posted and make it all about Scotland. Now try going back and reading ALL my post before telling me I am wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"While the Tories may be our problem (they are everyones problem) the suggestion that they are somehow Scotland's fault is frankly ridiculous
It's wonderful to see that a nationalist north of the border is so self absorbed that they are able to totally ignore what I posted and make it all about Scotland. Now try going back and reading ALL my post before telling me I am wrong."
Why lay the blame solely at the feet of the nationalist parties?
I would argue Labour & Lib Dems have gifted many more general election victories to the Tories over the last 40 years than any nationalist party! |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The impression I get is that:
a) in 2015, the 45% referendum yes vote stayed with the SNP - hence, they won every seat bar one in a first-past-the-post system
b) by 2017, the Tories had learned how to coalesce the No vote by wrapping themselves in the Union flag, pulling in voters who might not otherwise have voted Conservative.
Scotland does provide something interesting insights applicable to the UK.
The traditional left/right voting dynamics have been partly displaced by the Yes/No, just as the traditional left/right voting dynamics in the UK have been partly displaced by the leave/remain voting dynamics.
The difference is that the challenger to the status quo - the SNP - hasn't quite got the finishing line, but remains in power, whereas UKIP did get to the finishing line from a position of zero power.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Labour have no one but themselves to blame for not winning the ge they are hated in scotland and bit in the papers today saying they will lose all seats at next election to snp
actually in england and in wales labour made up seats on the conservatives...
it could be argued that the SNP's single minded drive for independence drove people in parts of scotland to vote for the unionist conservatives
sturgeon is a very good debater but the one person who actually stands with her toe to toe well in uk politics is ruth davidson
There was alot of tactical voting with labour telling their supporters to vote tory to keep snp from winning the seat and it backfired on them ,as for ruth davidson the first minister makes her look a fool most wks at first ministers questions she has no policies apart from no to independence "
So does Sturgeon have any policies other than independence? It kinda works both ways.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Labour have no one but themselves to blame for not winning the ge they are hated in scotland and bit in the papers today saying they will lose all seats at next election to snp
actually in england and in wales labour made up seats on the conservatives...
it could be argued that the SNP's single minded drive for independence drove people in parts of scotland to vote for the unionist conservatives
sturgeon is a very good debater but the one person who actually stands with her toe to toe well in uk politics is ruth davidson
There was alot of tactical voting with labour telling their supporters to vote tory to keep snp from winning the seat and it backfired on them ,as for ruth davidson the first minister makes her look a fool most wks at first ministers questions she has no policies apart from no to independence
So does Sturgeon have any policies other than independence? It kinda works both ways...."
Im sure if you do a bit of research youl find plenty thats why they are still in power and have had 10,000 new members in the last few wks because ppl trust them and know they are doing a good job  |
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"Weird how in Scotland leave seem to be left-wing and remain right.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?"
From wiki..
By the 1960s, the SNP was starting to become defined ideologically, with a social democratic tradition emerging as the party grew in urban, industrial Scotland, and its membership experienced an influx of social democrats from the Labour Party, the trade unions and the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.[48][49] The emergence of Billy Wolfe as a leading figure in the SNP also contributed to this movement to the left. By this period, the Labour Party were also the dominant party in Scotland, in terms of electoral support and representation. Targeting Labour through emphasising left-of-centre policies and values was therefore electorally logical for the SNP, as well as tying in with the ideological preferences of many new party members.
But it's not rocket science.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
You've missed out the bit where the SNP became swamped by an exodus from the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Those on the right were so alarmed by the centralisation tendency of Labour that they viewed separation as the only way to escape.
Hence, the SNP came to be known for a while as the Tartan Tories and their core vote was found in the shires of the east coast.
Their decision to vote down the 1979 Labour government, ushering in the Thatcher era, was used to beat them for years and years.
It's fair to say Salmond transformed their strategy.
Previously, it had been accepted that independence would happen when the SNP won a majority of seats in a General Election.
The Scottish Parliament created the opportunity for the SNP to demonstrate competence in government, and Salmond adopted a more incremental approach, i.e. if voters could be shown that nationalists could run things properly, the next step towards independence would be a smaller one for people to make.
SNP policy is to leave the UK and remain in the EU.
But about a third of its members want to leave both.
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"You've missed out the bit where the SNP became swamped by an exodus from the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Those on the right were so alarmed by the centralisation tendency of Labour that they viewed separation as the only way to escape.
Hence, the SNP came to be known for a while as the Tartan Tories and their core vote was found in the shires of the east coast.
Their decision to vote down the 1979 Labour government, ushering in the Thatcher era, was used to beat them for years and years.
It's fair to say Salmond transformed their strategy.
Previously, it had been accepted that independence would happen when the SNP won a majority of seats in a General Election.
The Scottish Parliament created the opportunity for the SNP to demonstrate competence in government, and Salmond adopted a more incremental approach, i.e. if voters could be shown that nationalists could run things properly, the next step towards independence would be a smaller one for people to make.
SNP policy is to leave the UK and remain in the EU.
But about a third of its members want to leave both.
"
So they're left of centre then. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
So they're left of centre then. "
Mostly, yes. They stole Labour's clothes and reaped the rewards in its heartlands.
The downside for the SNP is it left them vulnerable in the shires to a Tory resurgence under Ruth Davidson.
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"
So they're left of centre then.
Mostly, yes. They stole Labour's clothes and reaped the rewards in its heartlands.
The downside for the SNP is it left them vulnerable in the shires to a Tory resurgence under Ruth Davidson.
"
I just guessed by the hair styles of the "leave" campaigners. Too krusty to be rightwingers! |
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"While the Tories may be our problem (they are everyones problem) the suggestion that they are somehow Scotland's fault is frankly ridiculous
It's wonderful to see that a nationalist north of the border is so self absorbed that they are able to totally ignore what I posted and make it all about Scotland. Now try going back and reading ALL my post before telling me I am wrong."
Self absorbed? Is that what we are calling people who can count these days?
y'know - if you'd said 10 years you might have had a point - but as it is - you ARE wrong.
And I think you know it
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"
So they're left of centre then.
Mostly, yes. They stole Labour's clothes and reaped the rewards in its heartlands.
The downside for the SNP is it left them vulnerable in the shires to a Tory resurgence under Ruth Davidson.
"
I think you'll find those clothes were abandoned...  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If it wasnt for the SNP
Scotland would be able to play music in pubs, bars and hotels
but still, the SNP are not the only political party to BAN music, the Khmer Rouge & Pol Pot banned music too in 1975 |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Not on their own, but if added to the nationalist vote in Wales and Northern Ireland then it is pretty much a certainty that nationalist votes have gifted many general election victories to the Tories over the last 40 years. Of course the real irony of this is that Tory policies and doctrine have fueled nationalism and that Tories have gained power from that nationalism.
In fact it would be funny if it were not so sad.
absolute nonsense - throughout the eighties the SNP never held more than 3 seats at Westminster. It wasn't until 97 that started to change. Until that point - before Blairism - Scotland was staunchly Labour.
While the Tories may be our problem (they are everyones problem) the suggestion that they are somehow Scotland's fault is frankly ridiculous"
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"If it wasnt for the SNP
Scotland would be able to play music in pubs, bars and hotels
but still, the SNP are not the only political party to BAN music, the Khmer Rouge & Pol Pot banned music too in 1975"
Except they haven't really banned music have they?
They have instructed pubs to turn down teles and jukirsx as loud music means people having to shout,means people having to sit closer,which means less social distancing.
Pesky common sense. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not on their own, but if added to the nationalist vote in Wales and Northern Ireland then it is pretty much a certainty that nationalist votes have gifted many general election victories to the Tories over the last 40 years. Of course the real irony of this is that Tory policies and doctrine have fueled nationalism and that Tories have gained power from that nationalism.
In fact it would be funny if it were not so sad. "
What ?
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power."
hahahaha you really think that many people take that much notice of whats in papers? labour aint in power because people didnt want corbyn or his polices but what really finished labour off was there voters in the north and wales were fed up of being ignored.it was a choice between two turds. the red turd lost and the blue turd won |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power.
hahahaha you really think that many people take that much notice of whats in papers? labour aint in power because people didnt want corbyn or his polices but what really finished labour off was there voters in the north and wales were fed up of being ignored.it was a choice between two turds. the red turd lost and the blue turd won"
You really should watch that series about Murdoch. It might open your eyes. He's been getting PM's elected ever since Thatcher. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Anyway, back to the SNP. I don't know much about them. I think most of us in England don't know enough about them, compared to what we hear of Westminster. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power."
my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon."
I don't think they'd have won even if they pushed for outright Brexit. Corbyn was demonised in the press for years. That would have sunk him regardless. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I don't think they'd have won even if they pushed for outright Brexit. Corbyn was demonised in the press for years. That would have sunk him regardless."
umm maybe, I dont know, I do know its why they lost my vote this time. Agree the press had a thing for him but i really do believe brexit sunk them in the end. |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon."
Not everyone in the north voted leave.
They were desperate to prevent a no deal Brexit (which Is still a distinct possibility)and believed a 2nd ref was the fairest outcome.
Sadly big chunks of the north have slit their own throats so they can have blue passports. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I don't think they'd have won even if they pushed for outright Brexit. Corbyn was demonised in the press for years. That would have sunk him regardless. umm maybe, I dont know, I do know its why they lost my vote this time. Agree the press had a thing for him but i really do believe brexit sunk them in the end."
It's worth remembering in the 2017 election Labour promised to uphold the vote of the referendum. I don't recall a second referendum being promised by them back then so the main difference between Labour and conservative was other policies . T. May had the most awful campaign and although lost her overall majority still beat labour. I think this was corbyns best chance but just did not get enough seats in the end |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
Not everyone in the north voted leave.
They were desperate to prevent a no deal Brexit (which Is still a distinct possibility)and believed a 2nd ref was the fairest outcome.
Sadly big chunks of the north have slit their own throats so they can have blue passports."
you always say this but I think there is a bit more to wanting to leave than blue passports to be honest Lionel, not everyone is that well off that they can travel abroad so I dnt think they would really give 2 shits about what colour there passport is, and no not everyone in the north did but a large chunk did and I dont think they wanted a 2nd referendum when they had already made there voice clear the first time. |
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power.
hahahaha you really think that many people take that much notice of whats in papers? labour aint in power because people didnt want corbyn or his polices but what really finished labour off was there voters in the north and wales were fed up of being ignored.it was a choice between two turds. the red turd lost and the blue turd won
You really should watch that series about Murdoch. It might open your eyes. He's been getting PM's elected ever since Thatcher."
yea yea yea well if you belive that then it means the majority of the u.k are twats if there that easily swayed.fact is labour lost because they turned there back on there long time voters.that and corbyns past and i know your gona say murdoch printed shit about him.nope what was printed was already out there.if it was all lies i would of though jezza would of had a massive libel payout by now.im sure its slander to print lies??? and hey everyone knew bozo was a cunt aswell but people still voted for him mabey just mabey people chose the least worst out of a choice of two wankers |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
Not everyone in the north voted leave.
They were desperate to prevent a no deal Brexit (which Is still a distinct possibility)and believed a 2nd ref was the fairest outcome.
Sadly big chunks of the north have slit their own throats so they can have blue passports. you always say this but I think there is a bit more to wanting to leave than blue passports to be honest Lionel, not everyone is that well off that they can travel abroad so I dnt think they would really give 2 shits about what colour there passport is, and no not everyone in the north did but a large chunk did and I dont think they wanted a 2nd referendum when they had already made there voice clear the first time."
Immigration played a big part too. |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power.
hahahaha you really think that many people take that much notice of whats in papers? labour aint in power because people didnt want corbyn or his polices but what really finished labour off was there voters in the north and wales were fed up of being ignored.it was a choice between two turds. the red turd lost and the blue turd won
You really should watch that series about Murdoch. It might open your eyes. He's been getting PM's elected ever since Thatcher.
yea yea yea well if you belive that then it means the majority of the u.k are twats if there that easily swayed.fact is labour lost because they turned there back on there long time voters.that and corbyns past and i know your gona say murdoch printed shit about him.nope what was printed was already out there.if it was all lies i would of though jezza would of had a massive libel payout by now.im sure its slander to print lies??? and hey everyone knew bozo was a cunt aswell but people still voted for him mabey just mabey people chose the least worst out of a choice of two wankers"
You dont think murdoch has an influence? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'd really recommend people watch the show about Murdoch. It suddenly will become very clear the sort of influence he has wielded in this country for decades. |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon."
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
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"I'd really recommend people watch the show about Murdoch. It suddenly will become very clear the sort of influence he has wielded in this country for decades."
I'll have to give that a go.
Its incredible the amount of influence he has
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
"
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'd really recommend people watch the show about Murdoch. It suddenly will become very clear the sort of influence he has wielded in this country for decades.
I'll have to give that a go.
Its incredible the amount of influence he has
"
If you watch it, I reckon you'll see it's even more extreme than you suspect. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
Not everyone in the north voted leave.
They were desperate to prevent a no deal Brexit (which Is still a distinct possibility)and believed a 2nd ref was the fairest outcome.
Sadly big chunks of the north have slit their own throats so they can have blue passports. you always say this but I think there is a bit more to wanting to leave than blue passports to be honest Lionel, not everyone is that well off that they can travel abroad so I dnt think they would really give 2 shits about what colour there passport is, and no not everyone in the north did but a large chunk did and I dont think they wanted a 2nd referendum when they had already made there voice clear the first time.
Immigration played a big part too."
in what way? Are you saying that immigration was a big reason for the Brexit vote? I think it was a factor for some people maybe but not all, i know it didnt come into it for me, i don't think the reasons why people chose to vote the way they did are quite as simple as that, i think there are many reasons not just the ones that people like to trot out to portray brexit voters as racists or little englanders etc. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again?"
not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not? |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
Not everyone in the north voted leave.
They were desperate to prevent a no deal Brexit (which Is still a distinct possibility)and believed a 2nd ref was the fairest outcome.
Sadly big chunks of the north have slit their own throats so they can have blue passports. you always say this but I think there is a bit more to wanting to leave than blue passports to be honest Lionel, not everyone is that well off that they can travel abroad so I dnt think they would really give 2 shits about what colour there passport is, and no not everyone in the north did but a large chunk did and I dont think they wanted a 2nd referendum when they had already made there voice clear the first time.
Immigration played a big part too. in what way? Are you saying that immigration was a big reason for the Brexit vote? I think it was a factor for some people maybe but not all, i know it didnt come into it for me, i don't think the reasons why people chose to vote the way they did are quite as simple as that, i think there are many reasons not just the ones that people like to trot out to portray brexit voters as racists or little englanders etc."
Its anecdotal but I've got several friends who voted for Brexit because of immigration.
I'd take a while stab in the dark they arent the only ones.
There is massive resentment about immigratin in places like rochdale. Oldham..etc etc.
It wasnt the only factor but it was a big one.
In the north all the big cities lpool,Manchester,Leeds (I think)voted to remain.Whilst the smaller places voted out. |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not?"
Of course it is but all this will of the people nonsense ignores the 48%(or whatever)who wanted to remain. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not?
Of course it is but all this will of the people nonsense ignores the 48%(or whatever)who wanted to remain."
yes I know it ignored the 48%, but that's what happens when you have a vote one side loses, one wins, and normally when you win whatever you chose is what happens, you don't then implement the losing sides wishes, when labour have there votes to choose a new leader by the members you get whoever got the most votes, you don't go an choose the runner up as the winner, i wanted Lisa nandy and not kier but he won so thats it doesn't matter what i wanted, my side lost. |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not?
Of course it is but all this will of the people nonsense ignores the 48%(or whatever)who wanted to remain. yes I know it ignored the 48%, but that's what happens when you have a vote one side loses, one wins, and normally when you win whatever you chose is what happens, you don't then implement the losing sides wishes, when labour have there votes to choose a new leader by the members you get whoever got the most votes, you don't go an choose the runner up as the winner, i wanted Lisa nandy and not kier but he won so thats it doesn't matter what i wanted, my side lost."
But there is more to it than though isnt there?
Much more. |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
Not everyone in the north voted leave.
They were desperate to prevent a no deal Brexit (which Is still a distinct possibility)and believed a 2nd ref was the fairest outcome.
Sadly big chunks of the north have slit their own throats so they can have blue passports. you always say this but I think there is a bit more to wanting to leave than blue passports to be honest Lionel, not everyone is that well off that they can travel abroad so I dnt think they would really give 2 shits about what colour there passport is, and no not everyone in the north did but a large chunk did and I dont think they wanted a 2nd referendum when they had already made there voice clear the first time.
Immigration played a big part too. in what way? Are you saying that immigration was a big reason for the Brexit vote? I think it was a factor for some people maybe but not all, i know it didnt come into it for me, i don't think the reasons why people chose to vote the way they did are quite as simple as that, i think there are many reasons not just the ones that people like to trot out to portray brexit voters as racists or little englanders etc.
Its anecdotal but I've got several friends who voted for Brexit because of immigration.
I'd take a while stab in the dark they arent the only ones.
There is massive resentment about immigratin in places like rochdale. Oldham..etc etc.
It wasnt the only factor but it was a big one.
In the north all the big cities lpool,Manchester,Leeds (I think)voted to remain.Whilst the smaller places voted out."
Well it looks like a lot who voted over immigration are going to be disappointed.
I think theses figures are 2017/18
Approximately 500k thousand immigrants came to the U.K. from Europe. 90% came to work and paid contributions to the economy. They will no longer be allowed nor want to come. Pirelli, Ikea , Dyson, Jaguar Landrover and other manufacturers are building factories in Romania,Czech, Poland right now.
In the same year just shy of 600k immigrants came to the U.K. from the Indian subcontinent Pakistan, India Bangladesh. Of whom 80% came as dependents or students. (Governments statistics.)
Now students contribute fees and will bring a higher education standard across the board so very welcome and positive, but granny grandad sisters wives who don’t work do not contribute diddly.
These immigrants will not be affected by the new points rules or leaving the EU.
Workers paying tax are leaving so we can all look forward to paying a bit more tax to support the immigrants who don’t.
Take back control what a joke.
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"I'd really recommend people watch the show about Murdoch. It suddenly will become very clear the sort of influence he has wielded in this country for decades.
I'll have to give that a go.
Its incredible the amount of influence he has
"
Was he not courted by thatcher and Willie whitelaw back in the 70s and that started the recognition that whomever the media supported would be elected? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'd really recommend people watch the show about Murdoch. It suddenly will become very clear the sort of influence he has wielded in this country for decades.
I'll have to give that a go.
Its incredible the amount of influence he has
Was he not courted by thatcher and Willie whitelaw back in the 70s and that started the recognition that whomever the media supported would be elected? "
Basically: Thatcher supported Murdoch's bid for the Times and Sunday Times - and helped him avoid a reference to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Murdoch got her re-elected.
There's a lot more detail that anybody can read up on if they wish.
Since then, Murdoch has effectively elected PMs, driven us to war in Iraq and driven us to Brexit. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not?
Of course it is but all this will of the people nonsense ignores the 48%(or whatever)who wanted to remain. yes I know it ignored the 48%, but that's what happens when you have a vote one side loses, one wins, and normally when you win whatever you chose is what happens, you don't then implement the losing sides wishes, when labour have there votes to choose a new leader by the members you get whoever got the most votes, you don't go an choose the runner up as the winner, i wanted Lisa nandy and not kier but he won so thats it doesn't matter what i wanted, my side lost.
But there is more to it than though isnt there?
Much more."
much more to what exactly? |
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not?
Of course it is but all this will of the people nonsense ignores the 48%(or whatever)who wanted to remain. yes I know it ignored the 48%, but that's what happens when you have a vote one side loses, one wins, and normally when you win whatever you chose is what happens, you don't then implement the losing sides wishes, when labour have there votes to choose a new leader by the members you get whoever got the most votes, you don't go an choose the runner up as the winner, i wanted Lisa nandy and not kier but he won so thats it doesn't matter what i wanted, my side lost.
But there is more to it than though isnt there?
Much more. much more to what exactly?"
More ti Brexit. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If it wasn't for Murdoch, Labour might be in power. my personal belief why the didnt get in is because they didn't listen to the North with regards to the brexit vote, those people voted to leave, and Labour ignored them, if they had honoured there 2017 manifesto they probably would have won i reckon.
I would go further and suggest that many northern remain voters were also unhappy with their MP not listening to the majority.
If you were an mp and you sincerely believed Brexit was a shit show what would you do?.
And all this 'will of the people'is nonsense.
What was the difference between the votes again? not much, but there has to be a winner and loser even if its only by 1%, thats the way it is when you all vote on something is it not?
Of course it is but all this will of the people nonsense ignores the 48%(or whatever)who wanted to remain. yes I know it ignored the 48%, but that's what happens when you have a vote one side loses, one wins, and normally when you win whatever you chose is what happens, you don't then implement the losing sides wishes, when labour have there votes to choose a new leader by the members you get whoever got the most votes, you don't go an choose the runner up as the winner, i wanted Lisa nandy and not kier but he won so thats it doesn't matter what i wanted, my side lost.
But there is more to it than though isnt there?
Much more. much more to what exactly?
More ti Brexit."
sorry mate but I dont understand what you mean, I know Brexit is complicated and multi faceted but thats not exactly a reason to say that if you win a vote then you have to horse trade with the losing side, the people that wanted to stay in will not change there view and nor will the people who wanted to leave, find it hard to see the middle ground to be honest, we can't remain part of the common market without signing up to EU rules which is what leavers dont want and voted against. |
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Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors "
there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest."
What lies were told by the remain campign? Anything that's up there with a huge lie printed on the side of a bus?
Strangely enough, after the Brexit referendum, there was a surge for remain. It seems most people now want to remain in the EU. So people can and do change their minds.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest.
What lies were told by the remain campign? Anything that's up there with a huge lie printed on the side of a bus?
Strangely enough, after the Brexit referendum, there was a surge for remain. It seems most people now want to remain in the EU. So people can and do change their minds.
"
didn't they say the country would be bankrupt and we would all loose our jobs overnight if we voted to leave or something to that effect? Whether its as big as the bus lie I guess depends on your own personal beliefs, to me a lie is a lie doesn't matter how big or small. Was there a surge for remain? If so why didn't that translate into a election win for the remain backing parties instead of the leave one, doesnt make sense to me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest.
What lies were told by the remain campign? Anything that's up there with a huge lie printed on the side of a bus?
Strangely enough, after the Brexit referendum, there was a surge for remain. It seems most people now want to remain in the EU. So people can and do change their minds.
didn't they say the country would be bankrupt and we would all loose our jobs overnight if we voted to leave or something to that effect? Whether its as big as the bus lie I guess depends on your own personal beliefs, to me a lie is a lie doesn't matter how big or small. Was there a surge for remain? If so why didn't that translate into a election win for the remain backing parties instead of the leave one, doesnt make sense to me."
They might well have lied. I'm just asking for a bit more than a vague maybe.
The leave campaign lied blatantly, in a very concrete fashion.
It's a bizarre stance to take that the size of a lie doesn't matter. So if a friend told you they had eaten some ice cream when they hadn't, that'd be as bad as if they'd stolen everything you owned, burned down your house and then said it wasn't them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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what makes you think people have changed there mind and that "most" now want to stay in the EU, i haven't seen any truly independent polls or figures that suggest this to be honest, and I do mean independent, not affiliated to left or right because then its just bias. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"what makes you think people have changed there mind and that "most" now want to stay in the EU, i haven't seen any truly independent polls or figures that suggest this to be honest, and I do mean independent, not affiliated to left or right because then its just bias."
Again you could easily look that up for yourself. There are ample polls saying people have changed their minds. But if I mention any one you disagree with, you'll just say it's biased. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest.
What lies were told by the remain campign? Anything that's up there with a huge lie printed on the side of a bus?
Strangely enough, after the Brexit referendum, there was a surge for remain. It seems most people now want to remain in the EU. So people can and do change their minds.
didn't they say the country would be bankrupt and we would all loose our jobs overnight if we voted to leave or something to that effect? Whether its as big as the bus lie I guess depends on your own personal beliefs, to me a lie is a lie doesn't matter how big or small. Was there a surge for remain? If so why didn't that translate into a election win for the remain backing parties instead of the leave one, doesnt make sense to me.
They might well have lied. I'm just asking for a bit more than a vague maybe.
The leave campaign lied blatantly, in a very concrete fashion.
It's a bizarre stance to take that the size of a lie doesn't matter. So if a friend told you they had eaten some ice cream when they hadn't, that'd be as bad as if they'd stolen everything you owned, burned down your house and then said it wasn't them. "
lol well yes there is a difference with what you have used as example, and you can always argue some lies are bigger and worse than others, but to me morally lieing is wrong, both sides lied and both are wrong for it in my opinion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest.
What lies were told by the remain campign? Anything that's up there with a huge lie printed on the side of a bus?
Strangely enough, after the Brexit referendum, there was a surge for remain. It seems most people now want to remain in the EU. So people can and do change their minds.
didn't they say the country would be bankrupt and we would all loose our jobs overnight if we voted to leave or something to that effect? Whether its as big as the bus lie I guess depends on your own personal beliefs, to me a lie is a lie doesn't matter how big or small. Was there a surge for remain? If so why didn't that translate into a election win for the remain backing parties instead of the leave one, doesnt make sense to me.
They might well have lied. I'm just asking for a bit more than a vague maybe.
The leave campaign lied blatantly, in a very concrete fashion.
It's a bizarre stance to take that the size of a lie doesn't matter. So if a friend told you they had eaten some ice cream when they hadn't, that'd be as bad as if they'd stolen everything you owned, burned down your house and then said it wasn't them. lol well yes there is a difference with what you have used as example, and you can always argue some lies are bigger and worse than others, but to me morally lieing is wrong, both sides lied and both are wrong for it in my opinion."
Still waiting on concrete examples to match the infamous bus.
At least you've admitted there is a difference, implying some lies are worse than others. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"what makes you think people have changed there mind and that "most" now want to stay in the EU, i haven't seen any truly independent polls or figures that suggest this to be honest, and I do mean independent, not affiliated to left or right because then its just bias.
Again you could easily look that up for yourself. There are ample polls saying people have changed their minds. But if I mention any one you disagree with, you'll just say it's biased."
yes i know there are lots of polls but i can find as many saying people have changed there mind as there is that say the opposite, thats why I said independent and not affiliated to one party or another or the EU, I really don't know if such a thing as a truly independent poll exists, everything I have ever seen is biased to one side or the other. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Facts don't matter to people who disagree with them. It's why I encouraged you to look things up for yourself.
Literally anything I say, no matter how truthful and factual, will be ignored if you just don't want to accept it.
So seek out the facts and make your own mind up. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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as I told you I cant find truly independent facts, only biased ones, I cannot find a independent poll that shows what you stated without it be affiliated to one side or a party or a certain group of lobbyists. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies."
That's not concrete, though. It's vague.
Here's an example of concrete. The leave campaign put a slogan on a big red bus saying "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund out NHS instead. Vote Leave." That figure has since been proven to be an outright lie. It’s more like £250 million a week. And the impact on the economy from changes to trade after leaving the EU is likely to be far bigger than savings from the UK’s membership fee. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"as I told you I cant find truly independent facts, only biased ones, I cannot find a independent poll that shows what you stated without it be affiliated to one side or a party or a certain group of lobbyists. "
You'd dismiss any poll I provided as biased, though. So I won't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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(It's quite possible the Remain campaign lied. I'm not denying that. I'm just sick of vague accusations being thrown around when the lies of Leave were so blatant. And when it's so clear Brexit will likely be a very bad thing for our country.) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies.
That's not concrete, though. It's vague.
Here's an example of concrete. The leave campaign put a slogan on a big red bus saying "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund out NHS instead. Vote Leave." That figure has since been proven to be an outright lie. It’s more like £250 million a week. And the impact on the economy from changes to trade after leaving the EU is likely to be far bigger than savings from the UK’s membership fee."
you do like to talk to people in a condescending manner dont you, i don't see how its vague as it didn't happen so surely it was a lie when it was told. If you can provide one that has no links to anyone fine, because as I have stated twice to you know I cant find one, everything I can find when i check I find its affiliated to one or the other and therefore carries a bias. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies.
That's not concrete, though. It's vague.
Here's an example of concrete. The leave campaign put a slogan on a big red bus saying "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund out NHS instead. Vote Leave." That figure has since been proven to be an outright lie. It’s more like £250 million a week. And the impact on the economy from changes to trade after leaving the EU is likely to be far bigger than savings from the UK’s membership fee.you do like to talk to people in a condescending manner dont you, i don't see how its vague as it didn't happen so surely it was a lie when it was told. If you can provide one that has no links to anyone fine, because as I have stated twice to you know I cant find one, everything I can find when i check I find its affiliated to one or the other and therefore carries a bias. "
I didn't mean to be condescending. I was just trying to be factual.
I think I'll stop talking to you now as you seem annoyed and I don't want to get into an argument with any ill feeling.
I wish you all the best. Bye. |
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Labour in Scotland are dead in the water. The day they shared a " Better Together " platform with the tories was the day they failed Scotland. As a lifelong Labour supporter and member I could never vote for them again. They had the chance to rid Scotland of vile tory government's but chose the wrong side. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies.
That's not concrete, though. It's vague.
Here's an example of concrete. The leave campaign put a slogan on a big red bus saying "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund out NHS instead. Vote Leave." That figure has since been proven to be an outright lie. It’s more like £250 million a week. And the impact on the economy from changes to trade after leaving the EU is likely to be far bigger than savings from the UK’s membership fee."
The bus that just keeps giving. As value for money its probably the best ever devised. |
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"I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies.
That's not concrete, though. It's vague.
Here's an example of concrete. The leave campaign put a slogan on a big red bus saying "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund out NHS instead. Vote Leave." That figure has since been proven to be an outright lie. It’s more like £250 million a week. And the impact on the economy from changes to trade after leaving the EU is likely to be far bigger than savings from the UK’s membership fee.
The bus that just keeps giving. As value for money its probably the best ever devised. "
How can it be concrete when you use the word likely? |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I gave you an example i can remember, and its concrete because we voted leave and we didn't all loose our jobs overnight etc, i am not searching through tonnes of crap to find more, both sides told lies.
That's not concrete, though. It's vague.
Here's an example of concrete. The leave campaign put a slogan on a big red bus saying "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund out NHS instead. Vote Leave." That figure has since been proven to be an outright lie. It’s more like £250 million a week. And the impact on the economy from changes to trade after leaving the EU is likely to be far bigger than savings from the UK’s membership fee.
The bus that just keeps giving. As value for money its probably the best ever devised.
How can it be concrete when you use the word likely?"
The figure is irrelevant. They could have put 250 million or 500 million. The aim was to get people talking about it and it worked better than they ever imagined |
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"Labour in Scotland are dead in the water. The day they shared a " Better Together " platform with the tories was the day they failed Scotland. As a lifelong Labour supporter and member I could never vote for them again. They had the chance to rid Scotland of vile tory government's but chose the wrong side."
Thats staggering. |
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"Because to say people voted leave and that should be the end of it ignores the lies and bullshit that there told about it:the fact that the leave campaign were investigated:that a no deal was never raised as a possible outcome.
Loads of factors there were lies and bullshit on both sides Lionel and I think even if we had another vote it would be the same, i can tell you the leave and remain campaigns made no odds to me as I already knew how I would vote, and to be honest I think a lot of others did too. Surely a no deal was always a possibility unless people were nieve but I still think some sort of deal will be done, its in ours and there intrests.I know they were investigated too but I thought no wrong doing was found, maybe am wrong though I can't remember to be honest."
1 was much worse than the other.
They certainly.didnt float the idea of a no deal but its pointless arguing about it now.
It's done.
The people voted for it and we all have to live with the consequences. |
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"Labour in Scotland are dead in the water. The day they shared a " Better Together " platform with the tories was the day they failed Scotland. As a lifelong Labour supporter and member I could never vote for them again. They had the chance to rid Scotland of vile tory government's but chose the wrong side."
Were you in favour of Scottish independence in 2014? |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
|
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"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
"
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
"
There are some Tories that would never vote for corbyn that's true but I suspect not a massive amount given the brexit looming and of course they also had the lib dems to go to. Many Labour supporters claim its brexit that lost them the election and I think it had a significant impact. Problem is if it was not brexit then it was the rest of the policies and direction so not good either way |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace."
I agree Murdochs media and the Mail savaged him and I tried to read independent news. However I discovered he wasn’t particularly pleasant as a person. I saw him in an interview where he was aggressive to some assistant woman beneath him and I was quite shocked.
But you have to admit his sitting on the floor of the train stunts and paying respects at terrorists memorials was just naive.
As such I just thought he didn’t have the judgement to be PM .
Momentum swamped local MPs who objected to his policies with a view to get them de selected. That’s just not right. In the same way parachuting Tory loyalists into safe seats is also disgusting
In his policies , just broad-stroke nationalisation was unacceptable.
The railways were 40 years in national hands and descended into a dirty stinking unreliable mess. The money kept flowing but unions and shit management destroyed it.
Public servants don’t tend to be sacked they just get moved around and promotion is based on time in service rather than ability.
The civil service has high absentee rates for sickness. It’s because they can. It’s that simple.
My ex worked in the NHS for a so called flagship department.
At least two of the £100k + directors had over 40 days leave in the first six months because no one kept records or objected.
They wasted millions on a disaster of a project.
Then they changed the projects name and moved on to the next one. No accountability.
That’s what Corbin wanted to expand.
No thanks
In case you’re wondering I hate Boris and his band of lying scumbags.
|
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"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace.
I agree Murdochs media and the Mail savaged him and I tried to read independent news. However I discovered he wasn’t particularly pleasant as a person. I saw him in an interview where he was aggressive to some assistant woman beneath him and I was quite shocked.
But you have to admit his sitting on the floor of the train stunts and paying respects at terrorists memorials was just naive.
As such I just thought he didn’t have the judgement to be PM .
Momentum swamped local MPs who objected to his policies with a view to get them de selected. That’s just not right. In the same way parachuting Tory loyalists into safe seats is also disgusting
In his policies , just broad-stroke nationalisation was unacceptable.
The railways were 40 years in national hands and descended into a dirty stinking unreliable mess. The money kept flowing but unions and shit management destroyed it.
Public servants don’t tend to be sacked they just get moved around and promotion is based on time in service rather than ability.
The civil service has high absentee rates for sickness. It’s because they can. It’s that simple.
My ex worked in the NHS for a so called flagship department.
At least two of the £100k + directors had over 40 days leave in the first six months because no one kept records or objected.
They wasted millions on a disaster of a project.
Then they changed the projects name and moved on to the next one. No accountability.
That’s what Corbin wanted to expand.
No thanks
In case you’re wondering I hate Boris and his band of lying scumbags.
"
Ok where to start.
The terrorist thing is bullshit.Have a look on fact check.
The train thing was I'll advised.
Disagree about nationalisation.. where is the sense is having a multitude of foreign owned business where all the money is going overseas?
We own it.The money stays here..look how much profit is generated the trains make?it was estimated if we took over the trains within 8 years they would be paying for themselves.So every penny of that is 100%profit.You are comparing the 1970s with 2020.
Look at the absolute hash thats been made of the likes of the probation service.
I work in the civil service.If you have more than 6 days off at any 1 time you are on a warning.3 earnings and you are out.Ive got very real experience about then getting rid of people.Trust me .they dont move you around anymore.
I'd say in the last 3 years..just in my room 6 people have been sacked for sickness/performance..
It really isnt cushy.
Where I work a private company was brought in to do a It project costing millions and it had to be abandoned |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace.
I agree Murdochs media and the Mail savaged him and I tried to read independent news. However I discovered he wasn’t particularly pleasant as a person. I saw him in an interview where he was aggressive to some assistant woman beneath him and I was quite shocked.
But you have to admit his sitting on the floor of the train stunts and paying respects at terrorists memorials was just naive.
As such I just thought he didn’t have the judgement to be PM .
Momentum swamped local MPs who objected to his policies with a view to get them de selected. That’s just not right. In the same way parachuting Tory loyalists into safe seats is also disgusting
In his policies , just broad-stroke nationalisation was unacceptable.
The railways were 40 years in national hands and descended into a dirty stinking unreliable mess. The money kept flowing but unions and shit management destroyed it.
Public servants don’t tend to be sacked they just get moved around and promotion is based on time in service rather than ability.
The civil service has high absentee rates for sickness. It’s because they can. It’s that simple.
My ex worked in the NHS for a so called flagship department.
At least two of the £100k + directors had over 40 days leave in the first six months because no one kept records or objected.
They wasted millions on a disaster of a project.
Then they changed the projects name and moved on to the next one. No accountability.
That’s what Corbin wanted to expand.
No thanks
In case you’re wondering I hate Boris and his band of lying scumbags.
Ok where to start.
The terrorist thing is bullshit.Have a look on fact check.
The train thing was I'll advised.
Disagree about nationalisation.. where is the sense is having a multitude of foreign owned business where all the money is going overseas?
We own it.The money stays here..look how much profit is generated the trains make?it was estimated if we took over the trains within 8 years they would be paying for themselves.So every penny of that is 100%profit.You are comparing the 1970s with 2020.
Look at the absolute hash thats been made of the likes of the probation service.
I work in the civil service.If you have more than 6 days off at any 1 time you are on a warning.3 earnings and you are out.Ive got very real experience about then getting rid of people.Trust me .they dont move you around anymore.
I'd say in the last 3 years..just in my room 6 people have been sacked for sickness/performance..
It really isnt cushy.
Where I work a private company was brought in to do a It project costing millions and it had to be abandoned "
I agree that government spending should be if possible 100% in the U.K. and retraced back is hip should be U.K. you can find me banging on about that elsewhere.
I can’t come t on the probation service as I have no knowledge.
My sister is a manager in the civil service and recounts staff in other departments being moved rather than sacked.
The NHS management I mentioned were spending and wasting literally millions and no comeback at all.
I agree with the Palestinian cause that Corbyn laid a wreath for but the story ( not fact or fact checked to be wrong) of him then moving on to the cementry of the Munich bombers was just plain stupid if true.
The railways are still receiving receiving subsidy But a lot less than they were under privatisation.
“Funding varies from region to region, with £1.41 per passenger journey in England to £6.51 per journey in Scotland and £8.34 per journey in Wales.”
Dividends attract investors who raise money the government just doesn’t have,
Labour pushed the joint public private financing arrangements some of which have worked like the railways as shown by huge increases in usage along with reduced subsidy and others which have now started to creak under flawed planning such as the massively indebted hospital trusts. I believe the debt is 300billion plus.
It was smoke and mirrors from Gordon brown and the taxpayer is left with the debt.
I am all for the NHS being totally public funded and controlled. but any sane person that sees there is one admin person for every physical doer in the NHS knows that is ridiculously overmanning away from the work face.
That’s we’re the money is wasted
I saw one department with six directors and they each had a admin assistant
Those admin assistants had both a manager to manage them and assistant for each of them.
Just ridiculous.
The NHS needs frontline workers not more and more layers of admin and management.
It also needs a total revamp on what they pay for stuff. Drugs they have nailed and as long as we don’t give in to the USA on patents then they have control of it. But for equipment they pay over the odds.
Also the civil service pension liability is a scary well kept off the front pages secret.
So my point is I’m not a privateer through and through but when it’s working don’t try and fix it. If it isn’t then be honest enough so say ( and I mean government) it isn’t and look for help.
The Torys today will never say sorry we got it wrong they just spin.
Brexit best possible deal,, we’ll yes as it’s the only deal so it’s also the worst possible deal. Just spin after spin.
Get Brexit done ....yes and then what .. oh let’s worry about that later.
The U.K. is one of the most indebted countries in the world and we pretend it’s ok . It’s not.
|
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"Labour in Scotland are dead in the water. The day they shared a " Better Together " platform with the tories was the day they failed Scotland. As a lifelong Labour supporter and member I could never vote for them again. They had the chance to rid Scotland of vile tory government's but chose the wrong side.
Were you in favour of Scottish independence in 2014?"
No, I was a Labour man at the beginning of the referendum, but I listened to the case put forward by the SNP and realised Scotland would be far better of governed by a party we elected rather than the Tories who were elected by England |
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"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace.
I agree Murdochs media and the Mail savaged him and I tried to read independent news. However I discovered he wasn’t particularly pleasant as a person. I saw him in an interview where he was aggressive to some assistant woman beneath him and I was quite shocked.
But you have to admit his sitting on the floor of the train stunts and paying respects at terrorists memorials was just naive.
As such I just thought he didn’t have the judgement to be PM .
Momentum swamped local MPs who objected to his policies with a view to get them de selected. That’s just not right. In the same way parachuting Tory loyalists into safe seats is also disgusting
In his policies , just broad-stroke nationalisation was unacceptable.
The railways were 40 years in national hands and descended into a dirty stinking unreliable mess. The money kept flowing but unions and shit management destroyed it.
Public servants don’t tend to be sacked they just get moved around and promotion is based on time in service rather than ability.
The civil service has high absentee rates for sickness. It’s because they can. It’s that simple.
My ex worked in the NHS for a so called flagship department.
At least two of the £100k + directors had over 40 days leave in the first six months because no one kept records or objected.
They wasted millions on a disaster of a project.
Then they changed the projects name and moved on to the next one. No accountability.
That’s what Corbin wanted to expand.
No thanks
In case you’re wondering I hate Boris and his band of lying scumbags.
Ok where to start.
The terrorist thing is bullshit.Have a look on fact check.
The train thing was I'll advised.
Disagree about nationalisation.. where is the sense is having a multitude of foreign owned business where all the money is going overseas?
We own it.The money stays here..look how much profit is generated the trains make?it was estimated if we took over the trains within 8 years they would be paying for themselves.So every penny of that is 100%profit.You are comparing the 1970s with 2020.
Look at the absolute hash thats been made of the likes of the probation service.
I work in the civil service.If you have more than 6 days off at any 1 time you are on a warning.3 earnings and you are out.Ive got very real experience about then getting rid of people.Trust me .they dont move you around anymore.
I'd say in the last 3 years..just in my room 6 people have been sacked for sickness/performance..
It really isnt cushy.
Where I work a private company was brought in to do a It project costing millions and it had to be abandoned
I agree that government spending should be if possible 100% in the U.K. and retraced back is hip should be U.K. you can find me banging on about that elsewhere.
I can’t come t on the probation service as I have no knowledge.
My sister is a manager in the civil service and recounts staff in other departments being moved rather than sacked.
The NHS management I mentioned were spending and wasting literally millions and no comeback at all.
I agree with the Palestinian cause that Corbyn laid a wreath for but the story ( not fact or fact checked to be wrong) of him then moving on to the cementry of the Munich bombers was just plain stupid if true.
The railways are still receiving receiving subsidy But a lot less than they were under privatisation.
“Funding varies from region to region, with £1.41 per passenger journey in England to £6.51 per journey in Scotland and £8.34 per journey in Wales.”
Dividends attract investors who raise money the government just doesn’t have,
Labour pushed the joint public private financing arrangements some of which have worked like the railways as shown by huge increases in usage along with reduced subsidy and others which have now started to creak under flawed planning such as the massively indebted hospital trusts. I believe the debt is 300billion plus.
It was smoke and mirrors from Gordon brown and the taxpayer is left with the debt.
I am all for the NHS being totally public funded and controlled. but any sane person that sees there is one admin person for every physical doer in the NHS knows that is ridiculously overmanning away from the work face.
That’s we’re the money is wasted
I saw one department with six directors and they each had a admin assistant
Those admin assistants had both a manager to manage them and assistant for each of them.
Just ridiculous.
The NHS needs frontline workers not more and more layers of admin and management.
It also needs a total revamp on what they pay for stuff. Drugs they have nailed and as long as we don’t give in to the USA on patents then they have control of it. But for equipment they pay over the odds.
Also the civil service pension liability is a scary well kept off the front pages secret.
So my point is I’m not a privateer through and through but when it’s working don’t try and fix it. If it isn’t then be honest enough so say ( and I mean government) it isn’t and look for help.
The Torys today will never say sorry we got it wrong they just spin.
Brexit best possible deal,, we’ll yes as it’s the only deal so it’s also the worst possible deal. Just spin after spin.
Get Brexit done ....yes and then what .. oh let’s worry about that later.
The U.K. is one of the most indebted countries in the world and we pretend it’s ok . It’s not.
"
Our pensions got hammered..we were on strike over it a few years ago .think we are getting about a third less,than what we supposed to.
Years ago it was accepted whilst the civil service had lower pay..the terms and conditions,pensions etc were supposed to make up for it.
Not any more.
The privation service has been an utter disaster (I think possibly grayling could have been involded)
I think it's getting too back into the public sector now.
Every single job I've had..public and private.there has always been waste.The NHS is no exception.
I generally believe though in 5 years time ,the NHS will have undergone some radical changes. |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace.
I agree Murdochs media and the Mail savaged him and I tried to read independent news. However I discovered he wasn’t particularly pleasant as a person. I saw him in an interview where he was aggressive to some assistant woman beneath him and I was quite shocked.
But you have to admit his sitting on the floor of the train stunts and paying respects at terrorists memorials was just naive.
As such I just thought he didn’t have the judgement to be PM .
Momentum swamped local MPs who objected to his policies with a view to get them de selected. That’s just not right. In the same way parachuting Tory loyalists into safe seats is also disgusting
In his policies , just broad-stroke nationalisation was unacceptable.
The railways were 40 years in national hands and descended into a dirty stinking unreliable mess. The money kept flowing but unions and shit management destroyed it.
Public servants don’t tend to be sacked they just get moved around and promotion is based on time in service rather than ability.
The civil service has high absentee rates for sickness. It’s because they can. It’s that simple.
My ex worked in the NHS for a so called flagship department.
At least two of the £100k + directors had over 40 days leave in the first six months because no one kept records or objected.
They wasted millions on a disaster of a project.
Then they changed the projects name and moved on to the next one. No accountability.
That’s what Corbin wanted to expand.
No thanks
In case you’re wondering I hate Boris and his band of lying scumbags.
Ok where to start.
The terrorist thing is bullshit.Have a look on fact check.
The train thing was I'll advised.
Disagree about nationalisation.. where is the sense is having a multitude of foreign owned business where all the money is going overseas?
We own it.The money stays here..look how much profit is generated the trains make?it was estimated if we took over the trains within 8 years they would be paying for themselves.So every penny of that is 100%profit.You are comparing the 1970s with 2020.
Look at the absolute hash thats been made of the likes of the probation service.
I work in the civil service.If you have more than 6 days off at any 1 time you are on a warning.3 earnings and you are out.Ive got very real experience about then getting rid of people.Trust me .they dont move you around anymore.
I'd say in the last 3 years..just in my room 6 people have been sacked for sickness/performance..
It really isnt cushy.
Where I work a private company was brought in to do a It project costing millions and it had to be abandoned
I agree that government spending should be if possible 100% in the U.K. and retraced back is hip should be U.K. you can find me banging on about that elsewhere.
I can’t come t on the probation service as I have no knowledge.
My sister is a manager in the civil service and recounts staff in other departments being moved rather than sacked.
The NHS management I mentioned were spending and wasting literally millions and no comeback at all.
I agree with the Palestinian cause that Corbyn laid a wreath for but the story ( not fact or fact checked to be wrong) of him then moving on to the cementry of the Munich bombers was just plain stupid if true.
The railways are still receiving receiving subsidy But a lot less than they were under privatisation.
“Funding varies from region to region, with £1.41 per passenger journey in England to £6.51 per journey in Scotland and £8.34 per journey in Wales.”
Dividends attract investors who raise money the government just doesn’t have,
Labour pushed the joint public private financing arrangements some of which have worked like the railways as shown by huge increases in usage along with reduced subsidy and others which have now started to creak under flawed planning such as the massively indebted hospital trusts. I believe the debt is 300billion plus.
It was smoke and mirrors from Gordon brown and the taxpayer is left with the debt.
I am all for the NHS being totally public funded and controlled. but any sane person that sees there is one admin person for every physical doer in the NHS knows that is ridiculously overmanning away from the work face.
That’s we’re the money is wasted
I saw one department with six directors and they each had a admin assistant
Those admin assistants had both a manager to manage them and assistant for each of them.
Just ridiculous.
The NHS needs frontline workers not more and more layers of admin and management.
It also needs a total revamp on what they pay for stuff. Drugs they have nailed and as long as we don’t give in to the USA on patents then they have control of it. But for equipment they pay over the odds.
Also the civil service pension liability is a scary well kept off the front pages secret.
So my point is I’m not a privateer through and through but when it’s working don’t try and fix it. If it isn’t then be honest enough so say ( and I mean government) it isn’t and look for help.
The Torys today will never say sorry we got it wrong they just spin.
Brexit best possible deal,, we’ll yes as it’s the only deal so it’s also the worst possible deal. Just spin after spin.
Get Brexit done ....yes and then what .. oh let’s worry about that later.
The U.K. is one of the most indebted countries in the world and we pretend it’s ok . It’s not.
Our pensions got hammered..we were on strike over it a few years ago .think we are getting about a third less,than what we supposed to.
Years ago it was accepted whilst the civil service had lower pay..the terms and conditions,pensions etc were supposed to make up for it.
Not any more.
The privation service has been an utter disaster (I think possibly grayling could have been involded)
I think it's getting too back into the public sector now.
Every single job I've had..public and private.there has always been waste.The NHS is no exception.
I generally believe though in 5 years time ,the NHS will have undergone some radical changes."
Agree with your point totally but i understand the public service wages are now higher than private on average .
Correct me if I’m wrong . It’s been known 
Also the damage of final salary pensions has already been done so the workers and taxpayers today across public and private sector have to suffer because of the greed from years ago.
My neighbour was a head teacher and ended up on more than when he was working within a year of retiring and he paid a pittance in.
We all should get out what we pay in. (Plus interest)
How is it possible for a senior civil servant in London to be on 75-100k a year but gets a £1m pension pot out of the public sector pension fund?
Surely that’s making it less for the others In the scheme and no, it bares no relation to contributions it’s used as a golden handshake good buy.
But like MPs pensions . Two terms of office and you’re in the money.
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"I think at the last election to say vote tories and leave vote liberal and remain or labour and get another vote completely simplifies this all to much
Lifelong Tory voters would never vote for Corbyn’s labour to rule regardless of how shit Boris was . I genuinely think Corbin was unelectable as a leader regardless of Brexit and Labour voters were not comfortable with momentum etc.
I think to say the election was a landslide for Brexit is just too simplistic.
Far more to it than that . It was a mistake by labour to have Corbyn as leader but everyone is saying it’s all about Brexit. It isn’t .
Also to say Europe needs us is wishful thinking.
Their sales to the U.K. are around 380 Billion .
That’s around 8% of total EU sales . When you break that down again it’s less than 5% for all the countries. The worst hit will be Ireland as percentage.
For most it is 2-3% which is not really a concern is it.
People forgot how well Corbyn did in 2017.He deserved another crack.I always thought the plan was to drag the party back to actual socialism but bring through a new young leader who would take the party forward.
I always find it a bit strange whenever corbyn was criticised..it was very rarely on his policies.
However whatever you think of him as a politician .he wss a dignified,principled human being who actually had a degree of integrity.The way he was savaged in the media was a total disgrace.
I agree Murdochs media and the Mail savaged him and I tried to read independent news. However I discovered he wasn’t particularly pleasant as a person. I saw him in an interview where he was aggressive to some assistant woman beneath him and I was quite shocked.
But you have to admit his sitting on the floor of the train stunts and paying respects at terrorists memorials was just naive.
As such I just thought he didn’t have the judgement to be PM .
Momentum swamped local MPs who objected to his policies with a view to get them de selected. That’s just not right. In the same way parachuting Tory loyalists into safe seats is also disgusting
In his policies , just broad-stroke nationalisation was unacceptable.
The railways were 40 years in national hands and descended into a dirty stinking unreliable mess. The money kept flowing but unions and shit management destroyed it.
Public servants don’t tend to be sacked they just get moved around and promotion is based on time in service rather than ability.
The civil service has high absentee rates for sickness. It’s because they can. It’s that simple.
My ex worked in the NHS for a so called flagship department.
At least two of the £100k + directors had over 40 days leave in the first six months because no one kept records or objected.
They wasted millions on a disaster of a project.
Then they changed the projects name and moved on to the next one. No accountability.
That’s what Corbin wanted to expand.
No thanks
In case you’re wondering I hate Boris and his band of lying scumbags.
Ok where to start.
The terrorist thing is bullshit.Have a look on fact check.
The train thing was I'll advised.
Disagree about nationalisation.. where is the sense is having a multitude of foreign owned business where all the money is going overseas?
We own it.The money stays here..look how much profit is generated the trains make?it was estimated if we took over the trains within 8 years they would be paying for themselves.So every penny of that is 100%profit.You are comparing the 1970s with 2020.
Look at the absolute hash thats been made of the likes of the probation service.
I work in the civil service.If you have more than 6 days off at any 1 time you are on a warning.3 earnings and you are out.Ive got very real experience about then getting rid of people.Trust me .they dont move you around anymore.
I'd say in the last 3 years..just in my room 6 people have been sacked for sickness/performance..
It really isnt cushy.
Where I work a private company was brought in to do a It project costing millions and it had to be abandoned
I agree that government spending should be if possible 100% in the U.K. and retraced back is hip should be U.K. you can find me banging on about that elsewhere.
I can’t come t on the probation service as I have no knowledge.
My sister is a manager in the civil service and recounts staff in other departments being moved rather than sacked.
The NHS management I mentioned were spending and wasting literally millions and no comeback at all.
I agree with the Palestinian cause that Corbyn laid a wreath for but the story ( not fact or fact checked to be wrong) of him then moving on to the cementry of the Munich bombers was just plain stupid if true.
The railways are still receiving receiving subsidy But a lot less than they were under privatisation.
“Funding varies from region to region, with £1.41 per passenger journey in England to £6.51 per journey in Scotland and £8.34 per journey in Wales.”
Dividends attract investors who raise money the government just doesn’t have,
Labour pushed the joint public private financing arrangements some of which have worked like the railways as shown by huge increases in usage along with reduced subsidy and others which have now started to creak under flawed planning such as the massively indebted hospital trusts. I believe the debt is 300billion plus.
It was smoke and mirrors from Gordon brown and the taxpayer is left with the debt.
I am all for the NHS being totally public funded and controlled. but any sane person that sees there is one admin person for every physical doer in the NHS knows that is ridiculously overmanning away from the work face.
That’s we’re the money is wasted
I saw one department with six directors and they each had a admin assistant
Those admin assistants had both a manager to manage them and assistant for each of them.
Just ridiculous.
The NHS needs frontline workers not more and more layers of admin and management.
It also needs a total revamp on what they pay for stuff. Drugs they have nailed and as long as we don’t give in to the USA on patents then they have control of it. But for equipment they pay over the odds.
Also the civil service pension liability is a scary well kept off the front pages secret.
So my point is I’m not a privateer through and through but when it’s working don’t try and fix it. If it isn’t then be honest enough so say ( and I mean government) it isn’t and look for help.
The Torys today will never say sorry we got it wrong they just spin.
Brexit best possible deal,, we’ll yes as it’s the only deal so it’s also the worst possible deal. Just spin after spin.
Get Brexit done ....yes and then what .. oh let’s worry about that later.
The U.K. is one of the most indebted countries in the world and we pretend it’s ok . It’s not.
Our pensions got hammered..we were on strike over it a few years ago .think we are getting about a third less,than what we supposed to.
Years ago it was accepted whilst the civil service had lower pay..the terms and conditions,pensions etc were supposed to make up for it.
Not any more.
The privation service has been an utter disaster (I think possibly grayling could have been involded)
I think it's getting too back into the public sector now.
Every single job I've had..public and private.there has always been waste.The NHS is no exception.
I generally believe though in 5 years time ,the NHS will have undergone some radical changes.
Agree with your point totally but i understand the public service wages are now higher than private on average .
Correct me if I’m wrong . It’s been known
Also the damage of final salary pensions has already been done so the workers and taxpayers today across public and private sector have to suffer because of the greed from years ago.
My neighbour was a head teacher and ended up on more than when he was working within a year of retiring and he paid a pittance in.
We all should get out what we pay in. (Plus interest)
How is it possible for a senior civil servant in London to be on 75-100k a year but gets a £1m pension pot out of the public sector pension fund?
Surely that’s making it less for the others In the scheme and no, it bares no relation to contributions it’s used as a golden handshake good buy.
But like MPs pensions . Two terms of office and you’re in the money.
"
Re pay we had 6 years where we got no increase at all.
Last year we got 1%
Its difficult to compare with the private sector, but we had (private sector)contractors coming in who were in about 5 ton a day (that is a waste)
I'd say very few civil.servants are on anywhere near 100k apart from those near the very top.
I think the overall boss at our Place is on about 50 odd. |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
Actually
Why do we allow nurses to quit one day and then a week later cone back as contractors on three times the rate .
I don’t know if doctors do So please enlighten me.
Surely we can say if you leave you can’t work in healthcare for at least two years to stop this??
Agencies are cleaning up here. |
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