FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > No End to Freedom of Movement?

No End to Freedom of Movement?

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

Great for businesses and universities, but what do Brexiters think? Was this a big issue for you and other Leave voters?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

They'll be fucking livid.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Define freedom of movement

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 12/07/18 19:38:50]

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Define freedom of movement "

Shouldn't you know this already?

I mean, it was one of the whole red line things for the most holy Brexit.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It doesn’t look entirely unsensible. The devil in the detail is how much reciprocal arrangements, and the conditions therein, allow for emergencies stops etc or whatever people want to see. It’s probably tight enough to prevent the fear of benefit tourists, and self employed plumbers. And keep the NHS staffed. Whether it helps prevent the fruit pickers and compel the increase in wages some expect to see from decrease of supply, I’m not sure. Tbh it feels like one where big businesses win, and white collar professions win, but SME and non skilled workers are more uncertain in where they land.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

"They'll be fucking livid."
Wrong as usual,lets see the final draft first.

Why do you remainers make such generalised statements?You must be a thick lot

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x"

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

Not sure how it will work after Brexit.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Not sure how it will work after Brexit. "

The same as it worked before we signed up to the EU. If you can support yourself you’ll be fine. Have you never watched The Durrells?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Of course which misses the point.

People are usually pretty I'm favour of having as few barriers between themselves and their goal as possible.

In this case Brexit places barriers.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"They'll be fucking livid.Wrong as usual,lets see the final draft first.

Why do you remainers make such generalised statements?You must be a thick lot"

The white paper has already been released.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Not sure how it will work after Brexit.

The same as it worked before we signed up to the EU. If you can support yourself you’ll be fine. Have you never watched The Durrells?

You’re running out of straws to clutch at mate.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Not sure how it will work after Brexit.

The same as it worked before we signed up to the EU. If you can support yourself you’ll be fine. Have you never watched The Durrells?

Great to hear that no one worried about immigration in the UK before we joined the EU then

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?"

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We still get proper British passports right?

Which makes brexit worth it on its own.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt"

No it isn’t. That is why I asked for somebody to define freedom of movement and of yet nobody has.

What was the difference in freedom of movement pre EU and now?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *rench letterCouple over a year ago

Chorley,

Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt

No it isn’t. That is why I asked for somebody to define freedom of movement and of yet nobody has.

What was the difference in freedom of movement pre EU and now?"

Seriously?

Pre-EU I did not have the automatic right to go and live and work in another country or any common reciprocal arrangements for services. You needed a work permit, for example.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt

No it isn’t. That is why I asked for somebody to define freedom of movement and of yet nobody has.

What was the difference in freedom of movement pre EU and now?

Seriously?

Pre-EU I did not have the automatic right to go and live and work in another country or any common reciprocal arrangements for services. You needed a work permit, for example.

-Matt"

And was that a problem?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"We still get proper British passports right?

Which makes brexit worth it on its own.

Yup..

Made where I wonder..

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt

No it isn’t. That is why I asked for somebody to define freedom of movement and of yet nobody has.

What was the difference in freedom of movement pre EU and now?"

This is what the white paper says:

The UK’s future economic partnership should

therefore provide reciprocal arrangements, consistent with the ending of free

movement, that:

a. support businesses to provide services and to move their talented people;

b. allow citizens to travel freely, without a visa, for tourism and temporary business

activity;

c. facilitate mobility for students and young people, enabling them to continue to

benefit from world leading universities and the cultural experiences the UK and

the EU have to offer;

d. are as streamlined as possible to ensure smooth passage for legitimate travel

while strengthening the security of the UK’s borders; and

e. provide for other defined mobility provisions, including arrangements to ensure

that UK citizens living in the EU, in future, continue to benefit from their pension

entitlements and associated healthcare.

77. These proposals are without prejudice to the Common Travel Area (CTA)

arrangements between the UK and Ireland, and the Crown Dependencies. The CTA

means that Irish citizens will continue to enjoy a special status in the UK, provided for

by domestic legislation, distinct from the status of other EU nationals.

78. The principle of non-discrimination between existing Member States should apply to

all of the provisions agreed as part of the framework for mobility.

Business and services

79. UK firms and global investors rely on the ability to move and attract talent to support

global operations, and to send people to provide services across Europe. Indeed,

mobility is a key element of economic, cultural and scientific cooperation, ensuring

professional service providers can reach clients, advanced manufacturers can deploy

key personnel to the right place, and scientists can collaborate on world-leading

projects.

80. The UK would seek reciprocal arrangements that would allow UK nationals to visit

the EU without a visa for short-term business reasons and equivalent arrangements

for EU citizens coming to the UK. This would permit only paid work in limited and

clearly defined circumstances, in line with the current business visa policy.

81. As is the case with non-EU countries with whom the UK has a trading agreement, the

UK also wants to agree reciprocal provisions on intra-corporate transfers that allow

UK and EU-based companies to train staff, move them between offices and plants

and to deploy expertise where it is needed, based on existing arrangements with

non-EU countries. The UK will also discuss how to facilitate temporary mobility of

scientists and researchers, self-employed professionals, employees providing

services, as well as investors.Tourism

82. In the year ending September 2017, UK residents made approximately 50 million

non-business related visits to the EU spending £24 billion,24 and EU residents made

over 20 million non-business related visits to the UK spending £7.8 billion.25

83. The UK therefore proposes reciprocal visa-free travel arrangements to enable UK

and EU citizens to continue to travel freely for tourism in the future, maintaining the

close links between the people of the UK and the EU.

84. The Government wants UK and EU nationals to continue to be able to use the

European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to receive healthcare should they need it

while on holiday.

Students and young people

85. The UK and the EU should continue to give young people and students the chance to

benefit from each other’s world leading universities, including cultural exchanges

such as Erasmus+.

86. The UK proposes a UK-EU youth mobility scheme to ensure that young people can

continue to enjoy the social, cultural and educational benefits of living in each other’s

countries. The UK already operates a number of youth mobility schemes with other

global partners, for example with Australia and Canada, on which this could be

modelled.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So pretty much the same as pre EU then. And different from being members of the EU

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"So pretty much the same as pre EU then. And different from being members of the EU"

So answer the questions posed in the OP then, are you happy that an unlimited number of people can come here to work and study without a visa, and do you think this will be an issue of contention for other Brexit voters?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt

No it isn’t. That is why I asked for somebody to define freedom of movement and of yet nobody has.

What was the difference in freedom of movement pre EU and now?

Seriously?

Pre-EU I did not have the automatic right to go and live and work in another country or any common reciprocal arrangements for services. You needed a work permit, for example.

-Matt

And was that a problem?"

Asking the hard questions, I see.

Next up: Is water really wet? Is the sky actually blue?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?

Leavers: "We need to take back our borders! Too many coming over here and taking our jobs and using our public services!"

Also leavers: "So what if we leave the EU, why would that stop you moving to the continent to live and/or work?"

Further leavers: "Why you questioning why we voted? We know why we voted!"

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

-Matt

No it isn’t. That is why I asked for somebody to define freedom of movement and of yet nobody has.

What was the difference in freedom of movement pre EU and now?

Seriously?

Pre-EU I did not have the automatic right to go and live and work in another country or any common reciprocal arrangements for services. You needed a work permit, for example.

-Matt

And was that a problem?"

Well, either it is a problem or it isn't a problem.

If it *is* a problem:

Then you have prevented me from freely working and living in other EU countries, and you have prevented me from easily hiring EU nationals

If it *isn't* a problem:

Then leaving the EU isn't going to do anything to reduce the level of EU immigration to the UK as it isn't a problem for us to easily work over there, so won't be a problem for EU nationals to live and work over here.

But Boris has told you you can have your cake *and* eat it. So no problem there

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ? "

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt"

Complete rubbish

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ben is completely correct. Nobody has ever railed against polish and other eastern European immigrants, especially in the wake of Brexit.

Nope, never happened. Glad we had Ben here to set us all straight.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish "

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt"

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Many softcore brexiteers were uncomfortable with the risk of unlimited migration with no ability to say no.

What is not clear is whether the reciprocal agreements indicated in the white paper will mean this risk is still alive, or whether emergency bDeals or limits will be in place.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Many softcore brexiteers were uncomfortable with the risk of unlimited migration with no ability to say no.

Understandable.

Fear of things that aren't real is a defining feature of Brexit.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU"

OK, look, you can't just go redefining well known terms just to fit your argument.

Before the EU someone from the UK could not just head over to, say, Germany or France and work there without getting a work permit first.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oubepoMan over a year ago

Spain Portugal France

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x"

I've always said your country will leave without a deal and I still stand by that

As for living in Spain or France after a Brexit no-deal - Both countries will welcome you, they can't afford not to

For the record - My three nearest neighbours to my Spanish house in the South - are Swiss, Norwegian and Argentinian - All non EU citizens

If you believe you will be unable to live or retire here or made to feel unwelcome in some way - you are still listening to 'Project Fear'

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU

OK, look, you can't just go redefining well known terms just to fit your argument.

Before the EU someone from the UK could not just head over to, say, Germany or France and work there without getting a work permit first.

-Matt"

And what was the problem with that!?!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU

OK, look, you can't just go redefining well known terms just to fit your argument.

Before the EU someone from the UK could not just head over to, say, Germany or France and work there without getting a work permit first.

-Matt

And what was the problem with that!?! "

Well it is a hassle and expense for one, but as stated above, if it really is no problem, then why are so many Brexiteers wanting us to leave the EU in order to 'take back control' of our borders. When 1) we already have control of them 2) if there is no problem getting work permits, then what difference will leaving make?

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU

OK, look, you can't just go redefining well known terms just to fit your argument.

Before the EU someone from the UK could not just head over to, say, Germany or France and work there without getting a work permit first.

-Matt

And what was the problem with that!?!

-Matt"

A hassle and expense? Arrh, bless.

It won’t be a problem getting a work permit if in some cases you have already been offered a contract of employment, a vacancy has been advertised locally and there are no suitable applicants or in sectors where there is an Occupation Shortage, which already applies in Spain for example for non EU citizens, which is how it should be and would help to combat the depression of wages. Sorry if trying to improve the conditions and pay of the poorest seems like an inconvenience

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You know what is one of the biggest factors in helping improve people's lot in life? Mobility.

Wanna know what hampers mobility? Visas, especially when they're expensive.

Now, go cry some more crocodile tears.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what is one of the biggest factors in helping improve people's lot in life? Mobility.

Wanna know what hampers mobility? Visas, especially when they're expensive.

Now, go cry some more crocodile tears."

Your life must have been really shit if it’s helped yours any

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU

OK, look, you can't just go redefining well known terms just to fit your argument.

Before the EU someone from the UK could not just head over to, say, Germany or France and work there without getting a work permit first.

-Matt

And what was the problem with that!?!

-Matt

A hassle and expense? Arrh, bless.

Cool. So you going to tell your brexiteer buddies that they don't need to worry about Freedom of Movement then, as removing it won't make any different to immigration. that will make May's negotiating job that bit easier. And we need to get behind her, don't we. Thanks ever so much.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what is one of the biggest factors in helping improve people's lot in life? Mobility.

Wanna know what hampers mobility? Visas, especially when they're expensive.

Now, go cry some more crocodile tears.

Your life must have been really shit if it’s helped yours any"

If you say so.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What's the problem with eu citizens living in the UK ?

Nothing. Apart from there is a hardline faction of brexiteers who think they shouldn't be here as they feel it wrong that they should get to use the services that their taxes pay for.

-Matt

Complete rubbish

Great! So we are OK to keep freedom of movement then? That should make negotiations a bit easier.

(you might want to break this news to the other brexiteers, as I think some of them think otherwise)

-Matt

The freedom of movement we have always had yes. Not the freedom of movement as defined by the EU

OK, look, you can't just go redefining well known terms just to fit your argument.

Before the EU someone from the UK could not just head over to, say, Germany or France and work there without getting a work permit first.

-Matt

And what was the problem with that!?!

-Matt

A hassle and expense? Arrh, bless.

-Matt"

But it will make a difference

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish "

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

In the scenario where both Irish and British immigrants want to head to the new economic hotness that is Poland, Irish citizens have a distinct advantage over their UK counterparts, because they can move unimpeded by a visa program.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit."

I mean, it is not like this hasn't happened before has it? Auf Wiedersehen, Pet?

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit."

Get over yourself it was just a dig back

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

I mean, it is not like this hasn't happened before has it? Auf Wiedersehen, Pet?

-Matt"

Which proves my point about free movement pre EU, thanks

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

Get over yourself it was just a dig back "

And inadvertently showed up the limits of your ideas and understanding.

But yes, terribly poor form of me to read and understand the things you say, I shouldn't show you up like that.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

I mean, it is not like this hasn't happened before has it? Auf Wiedersehen, Pet?

-Matt

Which proves my point about free movement pre EU, thanks

No it doesn't as there wasn't freedom of movement back then. They had to apply for work permits.

This argument is getting very tedious now.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Free movement should stay, When I retire would like to live in Spain or France and Brexiters might have fucked this up for us and others. x

Why? Did nobody ever move to mainland Europe before 1993?"

Ok facts first:

1. There has always been restrictions of movement over 90 days. Freedom of movement under 90 days was mainly to accommodate tourism and temporary movement. Over 90 days you are supposed to meet the following requirements :

A). Have sufficient capital/income to support themselves and not be a burden on the host state.

B). Have comprehensive medical cover so as not to be a burden on the host state.

C). Not be a security threat.

This was introduced in 2004 - the fact that the UK chose not to enforce this is not the EU's fault.

2. After brexit there will be different options available but it will not be as easy as before. I can't speak for Spain but in France 3rd country immigration is a lot harder than for a member state. Much more requirements and income requirements much higher which could rule out the "ordinary folk", but it will be easier for those with a few quid.

3. Those who own properties here in France will see their property capital gains tax increase to 49%! Also those who rent their properties will be required to pay French cottisation on their rental income. They will be required to fill in French tax returns every year. Also the standard visa - up to 90 days means that after 90 days you have to leave shengen for a period of 90 days before you can come back in. Alternatively you will have to visit the French embassy in London and get a specific visa - an annual visa for example.

4. Not a lot of people are aware that if you are a permanent resident in France you are required to register with the authorities from day one. You are also required to do an annual French income tax return. Quite a few living here are not 100% legal and there are significant penalties.

5. You have to apply for a carte de sejour - and English documents have to be translated by a court approved translator - not cheap.

So yes it's all going to cost more, all in French and you'll probably need a French accountant too!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *inkywife1981Couple over a year ago

A town near you

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport. "

Better get digging for that irish grandad or grandmother.

Our passport office is overwhelmed with people fromm the uk applying for irish passports

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

Get over yourself it was just a dig back

And inadvertently showed up the limits of your ideas and understanding.

But yes, terribly poor form of me to read and understand the things you say, I shouldn't show you up like that. "

You're Irish aren't you? And yet you managed to go from Ireland to live and work in Canada. How did you ever manage it seeing as there is no free movement of people between Canada and the EU?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

Get over yourself it was just a dig back

And inadvertently showed up the limits of your ideas and understanding.

But yes, terribly poor form of me to read and understand the things you say, I shouldn't show you up like that.

You're Irish aren't you? And yet you managed to go from Ireland to live and work in Canada. How did you ever manage it seeing as there is no free movement of people between Canada and the EU?

Try reading it again.

The point isn't that it is impossible, it is that it is orders of magnitude easier with FoM than without.

And having done both, I can confirm that moving to Canada was far more effort and cost than anywhere in Europe that I've lived.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

Get over yourself it was just a dig back

And inadvertently showed up the limits of your ideas and understanding.

But yes, terribly poor form of me to read and understand the things you say, I shouldn't show you up like that.

You're Irish aren't you? And yet you managed to go from Ireland to live and work in Canada. How did you ever manage it seeing as there is no free movement of people between Canada and the EU?

Try reading it again.

The point isn't that it is impossible, it is that it is orders of magnitude easier with FoM than without.

And having done both, I can confirm that moving to Canada was far more effort and cost than anywhere in Europe that I've lived."

Aww didums that you had to 'put a bit of effort' in. What you're actually telling everyone here is that you're lazy and other remainers are also lazy. I'll happily 'put a bit of effort' in to get shot of the EU.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

Get over yourself it was just a dig back

And inadvertently showed up the limits of your ideas and understanding.

But yes, terribly poor form of me to read and understand the things you say, I shouldn't show you up like that.

You're Irish aren't you? And yet you managed to go from Ireland to live and work in Canada. How did you ever manage it seeing as there is no free movement of people between Canada and the EU?

Try reading it again.

The point isn't that it is impossible, it is that it is orders of magnitude easier with FoM than without.

And having done both, I can confirm that moving to Canada was far more effort and cost than anywhere in Europe that I've lived.

Having no barriers to movement is easier than having barriers to movement, no matter how you dress it up.

Pretending like this isn't the case, while central to your brexit fantasy, is absurd on it's face.

No idea why you're quoting "a bit of effort" though. The words I used were "far more effort and cost".

So if you could stop being deceitful, that'd be swell. There's a good lad.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *athy1Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

Shame you don’t put yourself on the bonfire

With all the crap you talk

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt"

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing."

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Again, there is a gulf between what people say and what you pretend they have said.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

Couldn't care less. Free movement and some vague, ridiculous notion of "sovereignty" are not why I'm anti EU.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *avidnsa69Man over a year ago

Essex

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

I'll be able to go anywhere in the world with my new British passport. You've already admitted yourself that you got to Canada without the need of a free movement of people agreement between Canada and the EU. "
you won't be getting a new passport until your old one runs out....destroying a passport is an offence you know

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

I mean, it is not like this hasn't happened before has it? Auf Wiedersehen, Pet?

-Matt

Which proves my point about free movement pre EU, thanks

No it doesn't as there wasn't freedom of movement back then. They had to apply for work permits.

This argument is getting very tedious now.

-Matt"

You mean the too much 'hassle and expense' wasn't too much hassle and expense?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Until hypothetically the economy enters the dark ages and you become personas non gratis. Just like the lower socioeconomic groups you want to block coming to the UK right now.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

A lot of Brexit voters weren't anti-immigrants and understand that those here from the EU will generally be able to stay anyway, if they wish. The issue is more with the government who haven't invested in infrastructure for everyone, schools, hospitals, homes etc.

It was understood that Brexit was complicated and meant some losses to potentially get something.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

You'd have thought that with all the economic benefit of immigration we'd have been overflowing with money, been investing in infrastructure like there's no tomorrow without any need to borrow, been paying the national debt down, have bought all our gold back, and have change left over to save for a rainy day.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"You'd have thought that with all the economic benefit of immigration we'd have been overflowing with money, been investing in infrastructure like there's no tomorrow without any need to borrow, been paying the national debt down, have bought all our gold back, and have change left over to save for a rainy day. "

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy? "

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A lot of Brexit voters weren't anti-immigrants and understand that those here from the EU will generally be able to stay anyway, if they wish. The issue is more with the government who haven't invested in infrastructure for everyone, schools, hospitals, homes etc.

It was understood that Brexit was complicated and meant some losses to potentially get something. "

And here be Mays challenge. Some leavers have it as being a big issue. Some don’t. What you would see as acceptable, they don’t. We never knew what leave meant (despite what people say). So May is trying to deliver a seven perpendicular lines.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport. "

Unlike you I'm not on this forum 24/7 to reply to posts. I have a life outside of this forum and I go out to meet real swingers. It's called having fun maybe you should try it sometime? Your constant badgering of people to reply on here looks pretty desperate and pathetic.

Anyway in answer to your question I'll be able to visit any country I can currently visit with my EU passport. There is no difference in that respect. It's deluded remainers who seem to think that an EU passport will get them into more countries than a British passport.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *athy1Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

One word answers your deluding posts CRAP

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

You were posting on other threads though, so you were on the forum. Nice to see you admit there will be no advantage of having a Brexit British passport, but of course there are plenty of disadvantages to not having an EU British passport. The very from the right to live, work and study in a huge number of countries, to participate in elections, less consular support when abroad, fewer legal rights and many many others.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

One word answers your deluding posts CRAP"

Congratulations, you finally managed to construct a complete sentence without any spelling mistakes.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

But it will be blue. Just like the old black ones. And that is the only thing that matters in his pretty little head.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

As as already been established on the thread I'll be able to go and live and work and study in other countries with a British passport if I wanted to. DemonJohn already admitted on the thread earlier that he managed to go and live and work in Canada without there being a free movement of people agreement between Canada and the EU. You don't need a free movement of people agreement between countries to go and live and work elsewhere, that is just a fact!

As for participating in other elections I presume you mean European MEP elections? After Brexit I don't want to participate in those elections we're leaving the EU, we won't be part of it so why you assume people who are not part of the EU would want to vote in EU elections is anyone's guess???

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"What happens if/when the UK ends up economically fucked and the young people are praying to get to Poland to work?

Ye could be tricky cuz it will already be full of Irish

I know you fancied this as the sickest of burns, but it does unintentionally show why your idea of "visas aren't a big deal" is wrong.

I do love it when you trip over yourself like this, really highlights the lack of serious thought that has gone into brexit.

I mean, it is not like this hasn't happened before has it? Auf Wiedersehen, Pet?

-Matt

Which proves my point about free movement pre EU, thanks

No it doesn't as there wasn't freedom of movement back then. They had to apply for work permits.

This argument is getting very tedious now.

-Matt

You mean the too much 'hassle and expense' wasn't too much hassle and expense?"

Well... was it, or wasn't it?

As I said earlier on this thread. Either it is not going to be a hassle and anyone is going to be able to get one without any problems and we don't 'take back control' of our border. Or it is a hassle, cost, uncertain etc and we do.

Which is it? Because some leave voters seem to think they can have their cake and eat it (no idea where they got that idea from, eh, Boris?). They think they can both tighten controls and stop people coming in, or that leaving the EU will make no difference to our ability to travel and work freely.

I organised a conference in 2014 here in Bristol. There were about 300 people from 30 different countries. I was talking to the delegation from Ukraine. There was 6 of them, and they all had to travel by minibus together 6 hours each way from where they lived to the capital to get a visa in person to be able to come into the UK to attend this conference for a few days. They had to do that twice, because for whatever reason something couldn't be processed on the first visit and they had to go back again. So that is 6 people, travelling 24 hours in total each. Not to mention time spent at the embassy itself. So that is 144 hours... or the equivalent of 3.5 person working weeks. To get something that as an EU citizen I don't have to do for much of my travel, and when I do is generally nowhere near as much hassle.

Now I'm not saying we will immediately revert back to something as much hassle as that, but what I am saying is that don't take it for granted how much easier it is to travel around the EU being an EU citizen as it is something that citizens of many other countries are very envious of.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

I'm guessing what he means by 'participate in other elections' is being able to democratically participate in a lot of the aspects that will still impact our daily lives, even when we leave the EU. Because, despite how much you stamp your feet, we will still have to interact with the EU and we will still need to conform to many of their standards and processes in order to interact with them.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DemonJohn already admitted on the thread earlier that he managed to go and live and work in Canada without there being a free movement of people agreement between Canada and the EU. You don't need a free movement of people agreement between countries to go and live and work elsewhere, that is just a fact! "

And as been pointed out to you again and again, the point isn't that it is possible, it is that it is much harder without FoM than with.

Stop being dishonest.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be? "

How much extra tax revenue is directly attributable to immigration, and how much would it cost for the infrastructure to support immigration?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be?

How much extra tax revenue is directly attributable to immigration, and how much would it cost for the infrastructure to support immigration? "

Immigrants are a net benefit to the UK. This country had always had immigrants, and has always had the infrastructure. You might like to believe that immigrants drive on different roads, go to immigrant only schools and hospitals, had dedicated internet and telephone lines that only deliver services in "foreign", but that's not the case. They share all the infrastructure, and why not, they pay for it too, more than they use.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours. "

Which is the way it should be

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which is the way it should be "

Do you think England Scotland Wales and NI should have the same level of control?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be?

How much extra tax revenue is directly attributable to immigration, and how much would it cost for the infrastructure to support immigration?

Independent bodies like Migration watch UK say otherwise. In fact they say immigration is a net drain or the plus/negative of immigration is at best neutral. Even Lib dem Leader Vince Cable said just after the result of the EU referendum that the benefits of immigration were questionable and it was not clear that immigration into the UK was a benefit.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be?

How much extra tax revenue is directly attributable to immigration, and how much would it cost for the infrastructure to support immigration?

University college London say they contribute an extra £2bn a year.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours. "

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

As for countries having control over who is allowed in or not then as Ben already pointed out 'that is how it should be'. Individual countries should have full control over who they allow in and who they don't allow in.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries? "

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?"

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup. "

Football Associations aren’t countries. Was it team GB at the Olympics?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup.

Football Associations aren’t countries. Was it team GB at the Olympics?"

Anyway, I think we are getting a bit distracted here, the question was should Scotland, Wales, NI and England be able to decide how many people they have from the other parts of the UK?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup.

Football Associations aren’t countries. Was it team GB at the Olympics?

Anyway, I think we are getting a bit distracted here, the question was should Scotland, Wales, NI and England be able to decide how many people they have from the other parts of the UK? "

As they are not separate countries, what the fuck are you talking about?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup.

Football Associations aren’t countries. Was it team GB at the Olympics?

Anyway, I think we are getting a bit distracted here, the question was should Scotland, Wales, NI and England be able to decide how many people they have from the other parts of the UK?

As they are not separate countries, what the fuck are you talking about?"

I take it from your response that you think people should be able to move freely between them then. How about in the US, India and China, should people be able to travel freely from one state/province to the other to live and work?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be?

How much extra tax revenue is directly attributable to immigration, and how much would it cost for the infrastructure to support immigration?

So in other words you have no fucking idea.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup.

Football Associations aren’t countries. Was it team GB at the Olympics?

Anyway, I think we are getting a bit distracted here, the question was should Scotland, Wales, NI and England be able to decide how many people they have from the other parts of the UK?

As they are not separate countries, what the fuck are you talking about?

I think you are getting confused with what a country is. So I’ll ask a question-

Should anybody from outside the EU be able to move freely into an EU country?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries? "

Ahhh, bless...someone who doesn't know or understand the difference between the UK and the EU.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

If they are separate countries, what are the SNP all about?

And yet it wasn't Team GB in the world cup.

Football Associations aren’t countries. Was it team GB at the Olympics?

Anyway, I think we are getting a bit distracted here, the question was should Scotland, Wales, NI and England be able to decide how many people they have from the other parts of the UK?

As they are not separate countries, what the fuck are you talking about?

I think you are getting confused with what a country is. So I’ll ask a question-

Should anybody from outside the EU be able to move freely into an EU country?"

How about you try answering the question?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

Ahhh, bless...someone who doesn't know or understand the difference between the UK and the EU."

Look, someone else who can't answer the question.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

We are the 5th largest economy in the world! Where do you expect us to be?

How much extra tax revenue is directly attributable to immigration, and how much would it cost for the infrastructure to support immigration?

So in other words you have no fucking idea."

What do you want to do? Add up the cost of all the infrastructure in the UK, divide it by the population of the UK and multiply that figure by the number of immigrants? What are you now gonna do with that figure?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lol, thick as mince

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Independent bodies like Migration watch UK say otherwise. "

Unfortunately, Migration Watch are pathological liars.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor."

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy! "

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason."

Of course you would.

All hail the conquering hero.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor."

Well, leaving aside the obvious comment about the rise of violence brought about by Brexit and Trump, and the whipping up of hysteria by the Tabloids and the likes of Rees Mogg, and the Far Right loonies....

...May has nor managed to bring down immigration levels at all whilst Home Secretary. She failed to meet the targets she set year after year after year. And those were targets of immigration levels for RoW as well, before you bleat on about you mistakenly thinking we can't control EU immigration.

So given her past history of being a total failure of a Home Sec (quite impressive considering how nasty her approaches were)... why do you think she is going to do any better as PM at that task?

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason."

No you wouldn't..

You'll shout off like some 'hard man' but as usual the shout shouty types are only full of hot air..

Wind and piss is how some may describe such talk..

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason."

To other Brexiteets. The above is why many leavers tend to form a stereotype of you folk. It’s not right, but this (and and a couple of posters here who through complete one-eyes rubbish out like people voted for immigration control to British-Pakistani (not EU) paedophile rings and claiming a leave campaigning MP was a remain civil servant because they said something that didn’t fit their agenda)

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

What a pile of shit, you have not a clue. We all knew for what we were voting. I just happen to have other ideas.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

What a pile of shit, you have not a clue. We all knew for what we were voting. I just happen to have other ideas."

Give me a clue then.

We were voting to leave the EU. You do this through invoking article 50. She is on track to deliver the vote.

Maybe I should have put this is why i feel others have views of leavers as being xyz. Youre right, it’s not fact others do take certain views, nor your post support them. I retract my statement and revert to an amended softened version.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

What a pile of shit, you have not a clue. We all knew for what we were voting. I just happen to have other ideas."

Have you considered forming better ideas?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Have you considered forming better ideas?"

Have you considered forming better arguments?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me.. "

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote. "

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Have you considered forming better ideas?

Have you considered forming better arguments?"

I can't say that anyone here has given me cause to get out of second gear, so no.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them."

It's not my opinion. A process of voter qualification to prove they understand what the vote means and weighting based on experience could help.

What do you propose....a continued decay of society so you can get your kicks calling people stupid on the internet?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Have you considered forming better ideas?

Have you considered forming better arguments?

I can't say that anyone here has given me cause to get out of second gear, so no."

Do you think you are in anyway effective at changing minds?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *restatynCplCouple over a year ago

Rhyl

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport. "

Don't let the border hit you in the arse then.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them.

It's not my opinion. A process of voter qualification to prove they understand what the vote means and weighting based on experience could help.

Could help who?

In a democracy every vote is equal.

That means a vote by someone with no qualifications is equal to that of a professor in politics or economics.

That means a vote by someone who has just turned 18 is equal to someone who is 90.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them.

It's not my opinion. A process of voter qualification to prove they understand what the vote means and weighting based on experience could help.

Could help who?

In a democracy every vote is equal.

That means a vote by someone with no qualifications is equal to that of a professor in politics or economics.

That means a vote by someone who has just turned 18 is equal to someone who is 90."

Yes and I'm saying that this isn't working.

For argument, why should somebody who is intellectually disadvantaged and gathers there opinion from a tabloid/facebook/word of mouth bubble have the same voting rights as an economics professor with an upper percentile IQ and decades of experience of the subject matter when it comes to big big economic decisions like brexit?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

Don't let the border hit you in the arse then."

I renewed my EU passport a few months back .Im guessing we will rejoin the EU by the time it expires in 2028.Regardless i will have lefty Blighty by then with any luck and be retired.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them.

It's not my opinion. A process of voter qualification to prove they understand what the vote means and weighting based on experience could help.

Could help who?

In a democracy every vote is equal.

That means a vote by someone with no qualifications is equal to that of a professor in politics or economics.

That means a vote by someone who has just turned 18 is equal to someone who is 90.

Yes and I'm saying that this isn't working.

Because all votes are equal.

Should only medical professors with an upper percentile IQ and decades of experience of the subject matter have voted in the recent abortion referendum in the Republic of Ireland?

Should only history professors with an upper percentile IQ and decades of experience of the subject matter have voted in the Scottish referendum in 2014?

BTW, did you mean 'their opinion'?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

We all see here how people don't even know what they are voting for and often rely on second and third hand information . A test should be administered to prove familiarity with the legislation and it's ramifications.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them.

It's not my opinion. A process of voter qualification to prove they understand what the vote means and weighting based on experience could help.

Could help who?

In a democracy every vote is equal.

That means a vote by someone with no qualifications is equal to that of a professor in politics or economics.

That means a vote by someone who has just turned 18 is equal to someone who is 90.

Yes and I'm saying that this isn't working.

Because all votes are equal.

Should only medical professors with an upper percentile IQ and decades of experience of the subject matter have voted in the recent abortion referendum in the Republic of Ireland?

Should only history professors with an upper percentile IQ and decades of experience of the subject matter have voted in the Scottish referendum in 2014?

BTW, did you mean 'their opinion'?

I did but I type as I think and autocorrect does it magic or mischief. It's childish to point out grammar and spelling. Just keep to the argument.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

And if I pass the test how many votes do I get?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *alking HeadMan over a year ago

Bolton

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

Do you honestly not know what would happen if you went down this path?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

What a pile of shit, you have not a clue. We all knew for what we were voting. I just happen to have other ideas.

Give me a clue then.

We were voting to leave the EU. You do this through invoking article 50. She is on track to deliver the vote.

Indeed. The 52% that voted to leave should be very happy right now, as Article 50 was triggered, and so the "will of the people" will come to fruition next year. As you say, May is on track to do exactly what the 52% wanted. That is what they voted for. That is what they are going to get. Anything regarding the details of how that happens, is apparently not important to them. They won, get over it, remember. Hard, soft, red, white, or blue, it doesn't matter. Brexit is Brexit and that is what they are going to get.

-Matt

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That anyone thinks such puerile drivel has any place in a modern democracy is beyond me..

This is exactly why democracy is broken.

Cretins like this don't deserve to vote.

We can object to his (toothless) calls for violence without going down the supremely stupid path of basing peoples right to vote on something as trite as your opinion of them.

It's not my opinion. A process of voter qualification to prove they understand what the vote means and weighting based on experience could help.

Oh hey, look.

It's the Louisiana literary test, with a new hat.

Everything old really is new again.

What do you propose....a continued decay of society so you can get your kicks calling people stupid on the internet?

Society has always been decaying, according to fretful, hard of thinking types, it's not really a big concern.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

What a pile of shit, you have not a clue. We all knew for what we were voting. I just happen to have other ideas.

Give me a clue then.

We were voting to leave the EU. You do this through invoking article 50. She is on track to deliver the vote.

-Matt"

No it isn't, what Theresa May is proposing is Brexit in name only. It's a complete betrayal of the Leave vote. She wants to keep us tied to a 'common rule book' with the EU which is effectively keeping us in the single market and customs union and will mean the ECJ continue to have jurisdiction over the UK because they will govern the rules of the 'common rule book' on goods and agri foods. She is also planning on keeping free movement of people just she wants to change the name and call it 'mobility of citizens' instead, they will effectively be one in the same thing. She has sold 17.4 million leave voters down the river and has completely betrayed Brexit, her plan also breaks conservative manifesto promises on Brexit. Her plan is being trashed by hard Brexiters and Remainers alike in parliament, there is no way she will get the required votes for this plan, it's already dead.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCC OP Couple over a year ago

Cambridge

"If the so called “freedom of movement” is not stopped post BREXIT, then Ms May deserves decapitation and her head displaying on a pike outside the Tower of London as a traitor.

Remember - brexit is all about restoring the supremacy of British democracy.

And if you don't meet the conflicting demands of brexteers, they'll kill you.

British Democracy!

I don’t speak for anybody else, only myself. I’d take her head off myself, along with any other member of the house of treason.

What a pile of shit, you have not a clue. We all knew for what we were voting. I just happen to have other ideas.

Give me a clue then.

We were voting to leave the EU. You do this through invoking article 50. She is on track to deliver the vote.

-Matt

But Brexit means Brexit, and this is indeed a red white and blue Brexit just as we were promised!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its becoming clear that for brexiteers what brexit actually is is a lot like identifying pornography.

They'll know it when they see it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

Do you honestly not know what would happen if you went down this path?"

It's purely conceptual, plenty could go wrong.

Tell me please.

The current voting process is having terrible outcomes and something needs to give - or am I the only one concerned about rapid populism growing on the strength of social media propaganda and voter manipulation?

Remember what Einstein said?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

Do you honestly not know what would happen if you went down this path?

It's purely conceptual, plenty could go wrong.

Tell me please.

Remember what Einstein said?"

I don't think Einstein said anything about Jim Crow era laws being a good thing...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You don't think full stop. Put that ridiculous strawman back up your arse

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You don't think full stop. Put that ridiculous strawman back up your arse

If you don't see the direct parallels between literacy tests in the Jim Crow era and your proposed idea that's fair enough.

But your ignorance isn't something other people have to emulate.

Your idea is terrible, your reasoning is shoddy, and even if we assume your motivations are pure if you can't see how ripe it is for abuse then you're just making the case as to why under your proposed system your own vote ought to be removed.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

Do you honestly not know what would happen if you went down this path?

It's purely conceptual, plenty could go wrong.

Tell me please.

It sounds suspiciously like you want to rig the vote so you get the result you want.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why did meritocratic decision making work so well for Ray Dalio then if it is so ineffective?

He predicted the recent Italian bond crisis for example.

There are no parallels...you are drawing them freehand.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

Do you honestly not know what would happen if you went down this path?

It's purely conceptual, plenty could go wrong.

Tell me please.

It sounds suspiciously like you want to rig the vote so you get the result you want."

The result I want is peace and prosperity for as many people as possible - we are going round in circles. Do you welcome the democratic choosing of hard right groups?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You don't think full stop. Put that ridiculous strawman back up your arse

If you don't see the direct parallels between literacy tests in the Jim Crow era and your proposed idea that's fair enough.

But your ignorance isn't something other people have to emulate.

Fuck me, I’m actually agreeing with you on something

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You are using a strawman. Everyone has a vote but some should have multiples votes.

Do you honestly not know what would happen if you went down this path?

It's purely conceptual, plenty could go wrong.

Tell me please.

It sounds suspiciously like you want to rig the vote so you get the result you want.

The result I want is peace and prosperity for as many people as possible - we are going round in circles. Do you welcome the democratic choosing of hard right groups?"

Welcome is not the right word. It is a possible outcome of a democratic system.

The solution is to make the case against them and to get out the vote, not to disenfranchise large groups of people because you don't like them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's nothing to do with me.

People can enfranchise themselves by engaging in the process of reading the material before getting to vote .

Want more votes...increase you knowledge.

All this would be complimented by training in politics and economics and centralised statistics at school. Sure all this could be perverted but so can the current setup ...in fact it is actively bring perverted right now, case in point, Cambridge analytica.

Want to bath in your own ignorance, fine, you have a democratic choice to do so but you don't have an unearned democratic right to fuck up the outcome for everyone else on the basis of bias, hatred and ignorance.

Just like the marches in the north, why do we perpetuate bad processes that lead to bad outcomes?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We are currently playing at a media rigged table, wake up sheeple.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It's nothing to do with me.

People can enfranchise themselves by engaging in the process of reading the material before getting to vote .

Want more votes...increase you knowledge.

Just like the marches in the north, why do we perpetuate bad processes that lead to bad outcomes? "

All of this is so ripe for abuse you can't have seriously thought this through

Questions:

Who determines what is sufficient knowledge? How is this tested? How can we be sure that the testing process is fair and equitable?

What guarantees do we have that the "right" answers to these tests don't, intentionally or otherwise, have a bias that disenfranchises people regardless of their level of understanding?

If we're going to implement a system at school to train people in "politics and economics" how do we ensure that this doesn't already broaden the divide between the rich and poor, as wealth is correlated strongly with education.

How do we ensure that the curriculum is taught fairly and that biases of those setting the curriculum and those teaching it don't lead to disenfranchisment of people through no fault of their own?

This idea is so thoroughly awful.

Here's a book for you to read next, animal farm.

Pay attention to the subversion of the phrase "all animals are equal".

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are currently playing at a media rigged table, wake up sheeple."

Get out.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ha ha, you know animal farm is a satire of communism which is the logical extension of your hard left love in about equality of outcome.

Anyway Rome wasn't built in a day and there's plenty to be worked out...how did we get to our current system of democracy, was it not also ripe for abuse? Have a bit of ambition and open your mind.

Is it not actively abused in many developing countries right now?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are currently playing at a media rigged table, wake up sheeple."

Surely the ignoramuses who are too stupid to pass 'the test' are also too stupid to read what the media want to brainwash them with?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just look at the absolute pig ignorance of the average anti immigration brexiteer who haven't a breeze about the economics of it all and are still holding out for their dividend and tell me that all is right with the current setup????

Assuming you grew up in Ireland and not Russia, we had zero state education to equip us to make that type of decision. Maybe if you were lucky enough to have chosen to study history, economics or politics at 3rs level you'd have half a start.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are currently playing at a media rigged table, wake up sheeple.

Surely the ignoramuses who are too stupid to pass 'the test' are also too stupid to read what the media want to brainwash them with?"

Exactly the opposite. I know this sounds elitist but there's a reason we train our surgeons for many years

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are currently playing at a media rigged table, wake up sheeple.

Surely the ignoramuses who are too stupid to pass 'the test' are also too stupid to read what the media want to brainwash them with?

Exactly the opposite. I know this sounds elitist but there's a reason we train our surgeons for many years

So they and other 'professionals' can decide our political future?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Do you prefer the fumbling of amateurs?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The main strength of this approach is that it s out the machievellian politicians.

It's rare to find someone equally as good at policy making as they are at manouvering.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ha ha, you know animal farm is a satire of communism which is the logical extension of your hard left love in about equality of outcome.

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Everyone's vote is equal, what you're arguing for is something the pig Napoleon would be happy with.

Anyway Rome wasn't built in a day and there's plenty to be worked out...how did we get to our current system of democracy, was it not also ripe for abuse? Have a bit of ambition and open your mind.

You should probably be able to answer at least some of those questions and not just handwave them away.

How much thought have you actually put into this?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Good to hear!!!

Minimal thought on the details but the principles are good ..that's the starting point.

Don't get caught up in them without looking at the myriad problems of corruption and manipulation within modern democracy in various jurisdictions.

You favourite rule.. "have your house in perfect order before you criticise others"

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

"Would rather have a EU passport than a British passport.

My EU passport will be going on the bonfire once Brexit is complete. Best place for it. Really looking forward to getting my new British passport.

How are you going to travel in the meantime when the EU on expires then?

-Matt

Leave glorious England?

What manner of person would contemplate such a thing.

Where will you be able to go with a Brexit British passport that couldn't go with an EU British passport?

Cat got your tongue centy?

Come on Centaur, try to name just 1 country that you will be able to visit in the future, that you can't currently visit with an EU British passport.

Less consular support abroad? If I need any consular support when I'm abroad on my British passport a quick visit to the British embassy of the country I'm in will do very nicely thank you.

But that's the point, if you go to a country without a UK embassy, you can currently go to the embassy of any EU country and they will support you. You won't be able to do that anymore.

You will also have lost the RIGHT to live and work anywhere else, instead you'll be at the whim of the country who decide if they want you or not. It's their decision, not yours.

Which countries in the world are you thinking of that don't have a UK embassy in them, but have an embassy of another EU country?

So you think that Scotland should be able to decide how many English people should come in? Or do you not consider them to be seperate countries?

Ahhh, bless...someone who doesn't know or understand the difference between the UK and the EU.

Look, someone else who can't answer the question. "

Poor little lamb....doesn't understand something simple like the difference between the UK and the EU.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Good to hear!!!

Minimal thought on the details but the principles are good ..that's the starting point.

Don't get caught up in them without looking at the myriad problems of corruption and manipulation within modern democracy in various jurisdictions.

You favourite rule.. "have your house in perfect order before you criticise others"

I believe that's that hack Jordan Peterson.

But no, I won't ignore the issues with your idea. That you can't even posit a potential answer to any of them shows you've not thought about this idea at all.

Why should I take it seriously when you don't?

Also, if you're going to roll back the idea of universal suffrage, then you're going to want a fantastically well thought through reasoning as to why, so you've your work cut out for you.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Which election/referendum have the electorate got wrong lately anyway? Other than maybe Macron in France

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Good to hear!!!

Minimal thought on the details but the principles are good ..that's the starting point.

Don't get caught up in them without looking at the myriad problems of corruption and manipulation within modern democracy in various jurisdictions.

You favourite rule.. "have your house in perfect order before you criticise others"

I believe that's that hack Jordan Peterson.

But no, I won't ignore the issues with your idea. That you can't even posit a potential answer to any of them shows you've not thought about this idea at all.

Why should I take it seriously when you don't?

Also, if you're going to roll back the idea of universal suffrage, then you're going to want a fantastically well thought through reasoning as to why, so you've your work cut out for you."

You are the quack that didn't read him and quoted liberally from your third hand sources about what a bad guy he is and here you are demanding that I go down the rabbit hole with you. Some chance.

Anyway I've defended the principle and you don't seem to be able to critique it without getting into trivial details that simply require appropriate checks and balances.

I'm just planting a seed here...it's funny to see you defend the process that brought you your two favourites gifts, Trump and Brexit....and of course the elephant in the room that is that bunch of cunts to use your parlance in Italy.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What freedom of movement means for an economic miracle like the united kingdom is that everyone moves here like they did after 2008. Many people from Spain etc where their economy was dead move here so local people didn't get the best jobs as the newcomers worked for less wages. Yes we need some workers to be allowed here but only people we need untill we train our own people for the work. So that is my awnser to your question and I will not awnser any comments on my awnser as not here to argue with a bunch of losers although I am not sure if there will be any winners so best to just walk away in my opinion,

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What freedom of movement means for an economic miracle like the united kingdom is that everyone moves here like they did after 2008. Many people from Spain etc where their economy was dead move here so local people didn't get the best jobs as the newcomers worked for less wages. Yes we need some workers to be allowed here but only people we need untill we train our own people for the work. So that is my awnser to your question and I will not awnser any comments on my awnser as not here to argue with a bunch of losers although I am not sure if there will be any winners so best to just walk away in my opinion, "

Intellectual humility at its best

We had lots of people from Spain coming to Ireland but don't seem to hold the same sentiment.

Is it a question of numbers or maybe a sense of superiority?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Good to hear!!!

Minimal thought on the details but the principles are good ..that's the starting point.

Don't get caught up in them without looking at the myriad problems of corruption and manipulation within modern democracy in various jurisdictions.

You favourite rule.. "have your house in perfect order before you criticise others"

I believe that's that hack Jordan Peterson.

But no, I won't ignore the issues with your idea. That you can't even posit a potential answer to any of them shows you've not thought about this idea at all.

Why should I take it seriously when you don't?

Also, if you're going to roll back the idea of universal suffrage, then you're going to want a fantastically well thought through reasoning as to why, so you've your work cut out for you.

You are the quack that didn't read him and quoted liberally from your third hand sources about what a bad guy he is and here you are demanding that I go down the rabbit hole with you. Some chance.

Anyway I've defended the principle and you don't seem to be able to critique it without getting into trivial details that simply require appropriate checks and balances.

Yup, sometimes democracy deals us a shitty hand.

That's why there's a clever phrase about "eternal vigilance" in regards to things like this.

And you have not defended the principle in the slightest - you've made no case that limiting peoples right to vote would produce better results. What does better even mean in this context?

And that you see questions about how this idea of yours isn't the same as Jim Crow era literacy tests, how you plan to avoid it turning into a tool of oppression you dismiss them as "trivial".

You'd rather whine about how unfair it is that I have nothing but contempt for a fraud like Peterson than put any effort into your ideas.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Intellectual humility at its best

We had lots of people from Spain coming to Ireland but don't seem to hold the same sentiment.

Is it a question of numbers or maybe a sense of superiority?"

Lots of Spanish going to Ireland, when?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *alking HeadMan over a year ago

Bolton

Fuck it, let's just go back to the Royal family running everything. Is that better? None of the plebs getting in the way and deciding how things are run in THEIR OWN country and THEIR OWN society.

If people don't get a vote, why the fuck should they pay any taxes? They haven't agreed to anything your hopefully benevolent dictators say. You really don't know what would happen if your idea came about do you? Civil war. Again.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Good to hear!!!

Minimal thought on the details but the principles are good ..that's the starting point.

Don't get caught up in them without looking at the myriad problems of corruption and manipulation within modern democracy in various jurisdictions.

You favourite rule.. "have your house in perfect order before you criticise others"

I believe that's that hack Jordan Peterson.

But no, I won't ignore the issues with your idea. That you can't even posit a potential answer to any of them shows you've not thought about this idea at all.

Why should I take it seriously when you don't?

Also, if you're going to roll back the idea of universal suffrage, then you're going to want a fantastically well thought through reasoning as to why, so you've your work cut out for you.

You are the quack that didn't read him and quoted liberally from your third hand sources about what a bad guy he is and here you are demanding that I go down the rabbit hole with you. Some chance.

Anyway I've defended the principle and you don't seem to be able to critique it without getting into trivial details that simply require appropriate checks and balances.

Yup, sometimes democracy deals us a shitty hand.

That's why there's a clever phrase about "eternal vigilance" in regards to things like this.

And you have not defended the principle in the slightest - you've made no case that limiting peoples right to vote would produce better results. What does better even mean in this context?

And that you see questions about how this idea of yours isn't the same as Jim Crow era literacy tests, how you plan to avoid it turning into a tool of oppression you dismiss them as "trivial".

You'd rather whine about how unfair it is that I have nothing but contempt for a fraud like Peterson than put any effort into your ideas."

I'm bored of you now. This magic eternal vigilance can be applied to a modified system too.

The main point is voting strength on merit - maybe everyone gets one while some get 2 or 5 or 10 if they merit it.

Go have a read of the machinations of Ray Dalio's company as the basis of the idea before you ignorantly decide what you think it is...as usual.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Fuck it, let's just go back to the Royal family running everything. Is that better? None of the plebs getting in the way and deciding how things are run in THEIR OWN country and THEIR OWN society.

That's wild extrapolation and bastardisation of what I'm saying.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Equality of outcome isn't anything that anyone really argues for, but that's beside the point.

Good to hear!!!

Minimal thought on the details but the principles are good ..that's the starting point.

Don't get caught up in them without looking at the myriad problems of corruption and manipulation within modern democracy in various jurisdictions.

You favourite rule.. "have your house in perfect order before you criticise others"

I believe that's that hack Jordan Peterson.

But no, I won't ignore the issues with your idea. That you can't even posit a potential answer to any of them shows you've not thought about this idea at all.

Why should I take it seriously when you don't?

Also, if you're going to roll back the idea of universal suffrage, then you're going to want a fantastically well thought through reasoning as to why, so you've your work cut out for you.

You are the quack that didn't read him and quoted liberally from your third hand sources about what a bad guy he is and here you are demanding that I go down the rabbit hole with you. Some chance.

Anyway I've defended the principle and you don't seem to be able to critique it without getting into trivial details that simply require appropriate checks and balances.

Yup, sometimes democracy deals us a shitty hand.

That's why there's a clever phrase about "eternal vigilance" in regards to things like this.

And you have not defended the principle in the slightest - you've made no case that limiting peoples right to vote would produce better results. What does better even mean in this context?

And that you see questions about how this idea of yours isn't the same as Jim Crow era literacy tests, how you plan to avoid it turning into a tool of oppression you dismiss them as "trivial".

You'd rather whine about how unfair it is that I have nothing but contempt for a fraud like Peterson than put any effort into your ideas.

I'm bored of you now. This magic eternal vigilance can be applied to a modified system too.

The main point is voting strength on merit - maybe everyone gets one while some get 2 or 5 or 10 if they merit it.

How do they merit it? How will we determine this? How will the method of determining this be made fair and equitable?

You reckon we can apply eternal vigilance to your new system - fine, but what is this system and what values does it have so we know what to be vigilant of?

How can you be so intent on an idea and yet you've not even been curious enough to think about how it would be implemented in the slightest?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Do your own homework...you are asking questions that have already been answered. I know you won't read it but at least I tried.

Voting strength is rated by your believeability as a sound decision maker.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/key-bridgewaters-success-real-idea-meritocracy-ray-dalio

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You haven't answered anything.

And meritocracies aren't really a thing (because implicit biases!) so seeking to use that as a basis is a non runner.

And even if we pretend you have answered everything I've asked, we still have another problem - how does this actually solve anything?

Because this system is stupidly easy to game. Currently one of the best ways to have a vote go your way is to simply get out as many people as possible for your side, and depress the turnout for the opposition.

But under this system, you're encouraged to simply teach the test, as if were, to a smaller number of voters and you have a bunch of voters who now have a substantial multiplier on their vote.

And that's not even taking into account that nothing about being able to pass a voting test means the person will vote the "right" way. You can learn the answers and regurgitate them as needed, then into the booth you go to vote for whatever the fuck you like.

Or how tiered voting system kinda break the anonymity of voting. And increases the ease of committing voting fraud.

This idea is so amazingly poorly thought through, no wonder you can't defend it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But under this system, you're encouraged to simply teach the test, as if were, to a smaller number of voters and you have a bunch of voters who now have a substantial multiplier on their vote.

Thats the most far fetched nonsense I've heard in a while..

And on the rest you are not getting it...of course it's not getting or forcing the "right" answer, it's about equipping people to make reasonable decisions by arming them with facts and knowledge over bias and ignorance and rewarding those who are most capable of solid reasoning based on the intricacies of the situation at hand.

You obviously didn't read the link

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Rewarding is the wrong word...I should say listening to those who are most believable.

Is Johnny racist down the pub the best man to listen to on policy making?

Be honest with yourself

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)