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Happy Eu withdrawal bill day
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"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go " With a lot more mud slinging from both sides  | |||
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" So how do you think today and tomorrow will go " Weak and wobbly. | |||
" So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Weak and wobbly." Sounds like a bad fab vertificafion!  | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go " Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. | |||
Little respect for such a complex matter, getting it right, your future livelihood, when Conservative party stability and keeping May in power, without upsetting DUP, are what counts. | |||
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"I have been listening to the debate. Never heard so much crap spoken in such a short time" Not heard it but won't be home until late, se will miss the news . Is ot government still telling lies or theMPs who have been forced to vote against their own beliefs, due to whips etc? | |||
"I have been listening to the debate. Never heard so much crap spoken in such a short time Not heard it but won't be home until late, se will miss the news . Is ot government still telling lies or theMPs who have been forced to vote against their own beliefs, due to whips etc? " Nope, the remoaners are talking crap in their arguments and that was my opinion and. Gov won so it's done and the wrecking motions have been shown for what they are. | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful." You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go " As I just said on previous post, the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. I also expect the government will win the vote on the single market and the EEA (European economic area) as it was on BBC Newsnight last night that Jeremy Corbyn intends to support the government on rejecting membership of the single market and the EEA. | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. " No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. | |||
"No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again." Yep, more fudge and time-wasting when dealing with the most important and time critical issue of the modern era. Thank fuck this lot were not in power in 1939, they would still have been telling everyone war meant war and it would be a red white and blue war while Hitler was sightseeing in Edinburgh before settling in for a summer in Balmoral! | |||
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"I would think the Tories will get what they want after some tight votes, Just a pity if it is goes through today it will mean the break up of the UK as we know it." wow ! Hope so ! How and why ? | |||
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"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain. "There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country. | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country."You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country. | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country. "You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know. | |||
"Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people" Triumph of the will? | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country.
You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know."We were asked a question, “ should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?” 52% voted to leave, right or wrong the government have to do what the majority voted for, what’s the alternative ? | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country.
You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know.
We were asked a question, “ should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?” 52% voted to leave, right or wrong the government have to do what the majority voted for, what’s the alternative ? "They could try to do it without proving to all and sundry that they couldnt run a bath. They could also try to leave without screwing over the majority of the population with a no deal brexit. | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country.
You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know.
We were asked a question, “ should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?” 52% voted to leave, right or wrong the government have to do what the majority voted for, what’s the alternative ?
They could try to do it without proving to all and sundry that they couldnt run a bath. They could also try to leave without screwing over the majority of the population with a no deal brexit. "I voted remain, unfortunately the people of this country voted differently, in my opinion ( which might not mean a lot ) we all need to stand together and try and make it work. Like it or not these are the people we voted to represent us. | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country.
You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know.
We were asked a question, “ should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?” 52% voted to leave, right or wrong the government have to do what the majority voted for, what’s the alternative ?
They could try to do it without proving to all and sundry that they couldnt run a bath. They could also try to leave without screwing over the majority of the population with a no deal brexit.
I voted remain, unfortunately the people of this country voted differently, in my opinion ( which might not mean a lot ) we all need to stand together and try and make it work. Like it or not these are the people we voted to represent us. "I hear what you're saying and I agree, in part, with your second post, however, when it comes to the first one, 51.8% is *not* a resounding answer either way by *any* standards, therefore calling that result "the will of *the people*" is clutching at straws and, imo, laughable. | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country.
You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know.
We were asked a question, “ should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?” 52% voted to leave, right or wrong the government have to do what the majority voted for, what’s the alternative ?
They could try to do it without proving to all and sundry that they couldnt run a bath. They could also try to leave without screwing over the majority of the population with a no deal brexit.
I voted remain, unfortunately the people of this country voted differently, in my opinion ( which might not mean a lot ) we all need to stand together and try and make it work. Like it or not these are the people we voted to represent us.
I hear what you're saying and I agree, in part, with your second post, however, when it comes to the first one, 51.8% is *not* a resounding answer either way by *any* standards, therefore calling that result "the will of *the people*" is clutching at straws and, imo, laughable."I agree, 51.8% might not be a majority but then what figure do we set? I think anybody that calls it the “ will of the people” are deluded, but people all look for different things. We’re never all going to agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing, the future will tell who was right or wrong. | |||
"I agree, 51.8% might not be a majority but then what figure do we set? I think anybody that calls it the “ will of the people” are deluded, but people all look for different things. We’re never all going to agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing, the future will tell who was right or wrong. " The thing that gets me is it was not 52% of the people, it was 52% of the people that voted, Which in fact is less than 40% of the people entitled to vote and now the most voluble of those 40% are claiming they are the majority and that any attempt to revisit the issue is antidemocratic and against the will of the people. Worse still it seems to me that the Maybot, BoJo and their cronies are now in the process of making a power-grab of epic proportions on the back of this false 'will of the people' claim and far from seeing power returned to, we are witnessing it being stripped away from parliament and given to the bunch of self-serving incompetents that now inhabit the cabinet. | |||
"I agree, 51.8% might not be a majority but then what figure do we set? I think anybody that calls it the “ will of the people” are deluded, but people all look for different things. We’re never all going to agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing, the future will tell who was right or wrong. The thing that gets me is it was not 52% of the people, it was 52% of the people that voted, Which in fact is less than 40% of the people entitled to vote and now the most voluble of those 40% are claiming they are the majority and that any attempt to revisit the issue is antidemocratic and against the will of the people. Worse still it seems to me that the Maybot, BoJo and their cronies are now in the process of making a power-grab of epic proportions on the back of this false 'will of the people' claim and far from seeing power returned to, we are witnessing it being stripped away from parliament and given to the bunch of self-serving incompetents that now inhabit the cabinet. " Yeah it was 52% of the people that voted, who knows how those who didn’t turn out would have voted. We had a referendum, the people voted. I’m amazed how people come on here telling us how rubbish the government, it’s as if they want the Brexit talks to fail so they can say “ I told you so”. | |||
"Yeah it was 52% of the people that voted, who knows how those who didn’t turn out would have voted. We had a referendum, the people voted. I’m amazed how people come on here telling us how rubbish the government, it’s as if they want the Brexit talks to fail so they can say “ I told you so”. " Do you realise that a higher level of basic consent is required for a union to call a strike than was mandated in the referendum? | |||
"Yeah it was 52% of the people that voted, who knows how those who didn’t turn out would have voted. We had a referendum, the people voted. I’m amazed how people come on here telling us how rubbish the government, it’s as if they want the Brexit talks to fail so they can say “ I told you so”. Do you realise that a higher level of basic consent is required for a union to call a strike than was mandated in the referendum?" I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. | |||
"Yeah it was 52% of the people that voted, who knows how those who didn’t turn out would have voted. We had a referendum, the people voted. I’m amazed how people come on here telling us how rubbish the government, it’s as if they want the Brexit talks to fail so they can say “ I told you so”. Do you realise that a higher level of basic consent is required for a union to call a strike than was mandated in the referendum? I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. " There was plenty of notice about the referendum vote so anyone who wanted to vote could have registered. The majority of voters who voted chose to leave, simple as that! Will even voted to leave himself and he got his wish! | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. " They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave)." Isn't that changing the goalpost Will? The question asked was leave or remain, more said leave, it's time to leave! | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave)." So in the next general election should we tell Labour “ you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote“ to get the Tories out of government. If they don’t they can try again in a couple of years time | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). So in the next general election should we tell Labour “ you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote“ to get the Tories out of government. If they don’t they can try again in a couple of years time "If England get knocked out the world cup by a 1-0 scoreline Willwill will probably say it wasn't decisive enough and we should have a replay. | |||
"Yeah it was 52% of the people that voted, who knows how those who didn’t turn out would have voted. We had a referendum, the people voted. I’m amazed how people come on here telling us how rubbish the government, it’s as if they want the Brexit talks to fail so they can say “ I told you so”. Do you realise that a higher level of basic consent is required for a union to call a strike than was mandated in the referendum? I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. There was plenty of notice about the referendum vote so anyone who wanted to vote could have registered. The majority of voters who voted chose to leave, simple as that! Will even voted to leave himself and he got his wish! "It was actually a very big turnout for the EU referendum vote. The turnout was around 72% which is a very high turnout when looking at elections in the UK historically. | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). Isn't that changing the goalpost Will? The question asked was leave or remain, more said leave, it's time to leave! " it's funny how a lot of remainers like willwill never questioned the result of the Scottish referendum which was 55-45 split in favour of Scotland staying in the UK not much off the 52-48 split in the EU referendum. Have the likes of willwill ever called for another Scottish referendum saying it wasn't decisive enough? It appears they only believe in democracy when they get the result they want. | |||
" The thing that gets me is it was not 52% of the people, it was 52% of the people that voted, Which in fact is less than 40% of the people entitled to vote and now the most voluble of those 40% are claiming they are the majority and that any attempt to revisit the issue is antidemocratic and against the will of the people. Worse still it seems to me that the Maybot, BoJo and their cronies are now in the process of making a power-grab of epic proportions on the back of this false 'will of the people' claim and far from seeing power returned to, we are witnessing it being stripped away from parliament and given to the bunch of self-serving incompetents that now inhabit the cabinet. " Two days ago in another thread (https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/765959) you praised Jeremy Corbyn for saying "he would abide by the people's choice" and sticking to his principles. Now you're saying it wasn't the people's choice. So it's okay when Jeremy Corbyn says it but not anyone else? A bit like it's okay for you to vote Leave but not anyone else. | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). Isn't that changing the goalpost Will? The question asked was leave or remain, more said leave, it's time to leave!
it's funny how a lot of remainers like willwill never questioned the result of the Scottish referendum which was 55-45 split in favour of Scotland staying in the UK not much off the 52-48 split in the EU referendum. Have the likes of willwill ever called for another Scottish referendum saying it wasn't decisive enough? It appears they only believe in democracy when they get the result they want. "well said | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). Isn't that changing the goalpost Will? The question asked was leave or remain, more said leave, it's time to leave!
it's funny how a lot of remainers like willwill never questioned the result of the Scottish referendum which was 55-45 split in favour of Scotland staying in the UK not much off the 52-48 split in the EU referendum. Have the likes of willwill ever called for another Scottish referendum saying it wasn't decisive enough? It appears they only believe in democracy when they get the result they want. well said "Nah, it's bullshit and there will likely be another Scottish independence referendum, yet will there be another EU referendum? | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). Isn't that changing the goalpost Will? The question asked was leave or remain, more said leave, it's time to leave!
it's funny how a lot of remainers like willwill never questioned the result of the Scottish referendum which was 55-45 split in favour of Scotland staying in the UK not much off the 52-48 split in the EU referendum. Have the likes of willwill ever called for another Scottish referendum saying it wasn't decisive enough? It appears they only believe in democracy when they get the result they want. well said
Nah, it's bullshit and there will likely be another Scottish independence referendum, yet will there be another EU referendum? "What is bullshit? | |||
"I do, so am I right in saying that you think not enough people voted and because of that we leave things as they were, what do we tell the people who bothered to vote ? It was a 50/50 question, yes or no more people voted to leave. They should have been told you won the vote but did not get the minimum number of votes required to change the status quo. You can have another go in (however many years time when you will need to get a minimum of X% of those eligible to vote to vote leave). Isn't that changing the goalpost Will? The question asked was leave or remain, more said leave, it's time to leave!
it's funny how a lot of remainers like willwill never questioned the result of the Scottish referendum which was 55-45 split in favour of Scotland staying in the UK not much off the 52-48 split in the EU referendum. Have the likes of willwill ever called for another Scottish referendum saying it wasn't decisive enough? It appears they only believe in democracy when they get the result they want. well said
Nah, it's bullshit and there will likely be another Scottish independence referendum, yet will there be another EU referendum?
What is bullshit?"What they said. | |||
"Happy EU Withdrawal bill day indeed! Every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government. Plus 6 resignations on Corbyn's front bench into the bargain.
There's no free lunch. Insult parliament and it has repercussions. The dead man walking conservative party will pay the price before the country.
You've got it wrong. Insult the will of the people and it has repercussions. The elected MP's who support the result of the referendum are delivering Brexit and the will of the people. It's the unelected Lords who have signed their own death warrant (politically in a metaphorical sense) and it is the Lords who will pay the price before the country.
You keep talking about the "will of the people" (like a Daily Mail broken record). What "will of *the people*" exactly? The only answer *the people* gave was "fuck if we know!" because that's exactly what an almost 50/50 split translates to. You're more than welcome to talk about the "will of the 52%" because the other 48% tend to disagree, yet they are still part of "the people" as a whole. You'd have been justified to be talking about the will of "the people" if the majority was overwhelming. As things are, *one* message was (and is) clear: Neither yes, nor no. *The people* don't know.
We were asked a question, “ should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?” 52% voted to leave, right or wrong the government have to do what the majority voted for, what’s the alternative ?
They could try to do it without proving to all and sundry that they couldnt run a bath. They could also try to leave without screwing over the majority of the population with a no deal brexit.
I voted remain, unfortunately the people of this country voted differently, in my opinion ( which might not mean a lot ) we all need to stand together and try and make it work. Like it or not these are the people we voted to represent us.
I hear what you're saying and I agree, in part, with your second post, however, when it comes to the first one, 51.8% is *not* a resounding answer either way by *any* standards, therefore calling that result "the will of *the people*" is clutching at straws and, imo, laughable."So in the next election whoever wins if it's a close vote then the losing party and their voters shud whinge and cry for the next 5 years till the next election. There was a referendum and the result close but clear leave. It's called living in a free country. More people wanted out than wanted to stay. | |||
" What is bullshit? What they said." All of them? 'They' can refer to 4 or more people who are quoted above. | |||
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" I agree, 51.8% might not be a majority but then what figure do we set? I think anybody that calls it the “ will of the people” are deluded, but people all look for different things. We’re never all going to agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing, the future will tell who was right or wrong. " It *is* a majority. Just not enough of a majority to keep calling it a "will of the people" result when asking for it to be implemented, as if the whole country has voted Leave. It's not the "will of *the people*". It's "the will of *the 51.8% out of the 72% of those registered*". Not disputing that Leave won the vote (albeit with the slimmest of majorities). But having national newspapers, in effect, threatening our parliament to listen to the wishes of the 51.8% only (or else!) and ignore the wishes of the 48.2% is ridiculous to say the least. These are people who'll still be living in the country post Brexit and the result, plus its implementation, will directly affect them *despite* their wishes. A little of consideration would not be unjustified. Again, I'm not saying that the vote should not be implemented. My issue is that not *all* "people" agreed on what to do. In fact, just under *half* of them, *disagreed* with the other half+1.8%. Hardly, negligent, right? Hence, "will of the people" is inaccurate, at best, if speaking literally. " So in the next election whoever wins if it's a close vote then the losing party and their voters shud whinge and cry for the next 5 years till the next election. There was a referendum and the result close but clear leave. It's called living in a free country. More people wanted out than wanted to stay. " 1. See my answer above to the other poster. 2. We *do* live in a free country, yes. Hence why the losing party and their voters can do whatever they like within the law. Last I checked no law prohibits "whinging and crying". In addition, the "losing" party *know* that in 5 years, they'll get another chance to achieve the desired result. Remain supporters, on this occassion, don't. Therefore, please enjoy your win and allow us, whingers and criers, to deal with it however we like. It's not as if the issue in question was anything important | |||
"Part of the problem was that the referendum wasn't held for the benefit of the people, it was held to sustain the conservative party, who lost lots of supporters to UKIP, so the conservatives wanted to do better at the General Election. The other major mistake was not having a published plan for what the required referendum result threshold would have to be, what it would mean and also result in. We also need to respect public opinion, which is why no static polling is valid for all subsequent decisions. That's partly why elections are held. In this instance, parliament should be more responsible for influencing the direction of the EU negotiations offer, which is what this whole process will ultimately mean for the UK population - anything up until the concluded offer is speculative, so the actual future offer and positions should be decided upon by at least the peoples' representatives in parliament. " If it was held for the Conservative Party, how come every Labour leader I can recall has either campaigned to leave the EU or has had plans for an EU referendum in their manifestos | |||
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"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again." It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. | |||
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"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. " Thanks for the news bulletin. We watch the news too though. In addition, for someone who keeps banging on about the advantages of brexit, with sovereignty being one of them, you seem awfully pleased whenever that sovereignty is compromised. I'm starting to think that all your rhetoric is bullshit and that you only voted brexit to get rid of immigrants. Which is your right, of course, but at least stop pretending that you care about anything else. | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. Thanks for the news bulletin. We watch the news too though. In addition, for someone who keeps banging on about the advantages of brexit, with sovereignty being one of them, you seem awfully pleased whenever that sovereignty is compromised. I'm starting to think that all your rhetoric is bullshit and that you only voted brexit to get rid of immigrants. Which is your right, of course, but at least stop pretending that you care about anything else." No it's about the government having control over the negotiations. You can't have the government's hands tied behind it's back in negotiations with the EU. | |||
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"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. Thanks for the news bulletin. We watch the news too though. In addition, for someone who keeps banging on about the advantages of brexit, with sovereignty being one of them, you seem awfully pleased whenever that sovereignty is compromised. I'm starting to think that all your rhetoric is bullshit and that you only voted brexit to get rid of immigrants. Which is your right, of course, but at least stop pretending that you care about anything else. No it's about the government having control over the negotiations. You can't have the government's hands tied behind it's back in negotiations with the EU. " There is no point In negotiating if the common had won the vote as we will just be stuck in a shit place without the means to do other deals and yes the vote is done now and goes back to the lords then onto the queen I believe so now we can really negotiate our deal or walk away | |||
"Oh well, the comedy value of _abio posting this thread was worth it alone..... "He only asked how people thought it'd pan out & you've turned it into a childish point scoring excersise  | |||
"Oh well, the comedy value of _abio posting this thread was worth it alone.....
He only asked how people thought it'd pan out & you've turned it into a childish point scoring excersise "Well you give an opinion and a remoaners will soon turn up an be rude. | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. Thanks for the news bulletin. We watch the news too though. In addition, for someone who keeps banging on about the advantages of brexit, with sovereignty being one of them, you seem awfully pleased whenever that sovereignty is compromised. I'm starting to think that all your rhetoric is bullshit and that you only voted brexit to get rid of immigrants. Which is your right, of course, but at least stop pretending that you care about anything else. No it's about the government having control over the negotiations. You can't have the government's hands tied behind it's back in negotiations with the EU. There is no point In negotiating if the common had won the vote as we will just be stuck in a shit place without the means to do other deals and yes the vote is done now and goes back to the lords then onto the queen I believe so now we can really negotiate our deal or walk away " Also your presumptions and forcasts are fucking crap and came out of the Hammer studios in Pinewood. All made up and bullshit | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go " Fucking brilliant we hope. Come on Mrs May, stand fast old girl. They don't like it up em you know. Not lime the wife anyway. | |||
"Oh well, the comedy value of _abio posting this thread was worth it alone.....
He only asked how people thought it'd pan out & you've turned it into a childish point scoring excersise "That is okay Andy... the only opinion I offered in the thread is that I thought it would be fascinating, and I absolutely stand by that Centy has to get his glory where he can at the moment after making a proper tit of himself in other threads.... so if he feels the need to be smug I am sure people have noticed | |||
"Oh well, the comedy value of _abio posting this thread was worth it alone..... "For gods sake man I mean boy Your worse than the politicians trying to point score all the time Grow up The fun has only just started Grieve didn’t have the balls to go through with because he would have brought the goverment down So you shouting your mouth off about winning is all fabrication he and the others backtracked because if they brought the goverment down A general election and probbally labour would have been elected You would have been shitting the bed then Watch out for for part 2 customs union vote | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. Thanks for the news bulletin. We watch the news too though. In addition, for someone who keeps banging on about the advantages of brexit, with sovereignty being one of them, you seem awfully pleased whenever that sovereignty is compromised. I'm starting to think that all your rhetoric is bullshit and that you only voted brexit to get rid of immigrants. Which is your right, of course, but at least stop pretending that you care about anything else. No it's about the government having control over the negotiations. You can't have the government's hands tied behind it's back in negotiations with the EU. " We all watch the news why do you send respeats all the time as if we don’t no what’s going on Oh yes forgot GLOATING is the word | |||
"So the next two days in parliament will be fascinating and already the brexit newspapers are ramping up the vicious wording So how do you think today and tomorrow will go Astonishing that the Govt is still trying to push the line that a "meaningful vote" means, take it, or leave it. I will be amazed if they win that vote - it defies common sense let alone the very definition of meaningful. You must be amazed right now then. The government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment. No. The can has been kicked done wn the road. I wouldn’t expect you to follow the detail - but if you do care to read into it, the Govt assured backbencher that they will amend the Billbefore sendingbit back to the Lords and thenbthe House has the opportunity to vote on it all over again. It seems the Tory remain rebels and the government had a different idea of what was agreed last week, as such the bill was not really altered. The bill went back to the Lords last week having every single Lords ammendment defeated by the government in the Commons. The Lord's backed the ammendments again and it came back to the Commons today. The Tory remain rebels were defeated again and the government won the vote on the 'meaningful vote' ammendment by 319 to 303 votes. In the end Dominic Grieve didn't even back his own ammendment. Labour remainers accused him of behaving like the grand old Duke of York, leading them all up the hill only to march them all back down again. Remainers say a compromise was reached which enables them to call a neutral motion on it, but in the end is meaningless as Parliament rules say a neutral motion cannot be amended. Thanks for the news bulletin. We watch the news too though. In addition, for someone who keeps banging on about the advantages of brexit, with sovereignty being one of them, you seem awfully pleased whenever that sovereignty is compromised. I'm starting to think that all your rhetoric is bullshit and that you only voted brexit to get rid of immigrants. Which is your right, of course, but at least stop pretending that you care about anything else. No it's about the government having control over the negotiations. You can't have the government's hands tied behind it's back in negotiations with the EU. " No, it's not about that at all. It's about leaving with no deal, which is what the JRMs, Goves, Johnsons and Co. want (and, I suspect, you too). That's, again, your right but, at least, be honest about it. The government didn't have its hands tied in the 2 years since the referendum. Dragging their feet, fudging and kicking the can again and again doesn't look like someone who wants *any* kind of deal, let alone a good one, otherwise they would have made sufficient progress by now and not left the majority of things to be sorted out in a miniscule amount of time, compared to what has already passed. Therefore, the "negotiations" excuse, and willingness for, is bullshit. | |||
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"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. " By the way, I'm using the male terms just for ease of expression. Male and female roles could also be used, for those of you that may be easily offended. | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. " But what if the salesman knows by asking away you’re commiting to buy a car from another dealer ? And knows the terms ? | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. But what if the salesman knows by asking away you’re commiting to buy a car from another dealer ? And knows the terms ? " The reality is we have said, we will only pay X for a car, not a penny more, so don't show me any that are more expensive. We flat out refuse to buy any optional extras, so don't even bother talking about them or discounting them. Oh, and I need the car for Monday because otherwise I'll lose my job and can't pay the mortgage. Right, so what's the best deal you can do? | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. But what if the salesman knows by asking away you’re commiting to buy a car from another dealer ? And knows the terms ? " And is he prepared to lose tgat deal? | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. But what if the salesman knows by asking away you’re commiting to buy a car from another dealer ? And knows the terms ? The reality is we have said, we will only pay X for a car, not a penny more, so don't show me any that are more expensive. We flat out refuse to buy any optional extras, so don't even bother talking about them or discounting them. Oh, and I need the car for Monday because otherwise I'll lose my job and can't pay the mortgage. Right, so what's the best deal you can do?" But we don't need the car for Monday. If he hasn't sold us the car by Monday, it's his loss. We'll still get to work. It may be a little harder for a while, but we'll still get there. And btw, if he doesn't sell .e that car, well, I'll get another elsewhere. It may come as a surprise to you, but there is more than 1 car dealer to do business with. | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. But what if the salesman knows by asking away you’re commiting to buy a car from another dealer ? And knows the terms ? And is he prepared to lose tgat deal?" Who ? The second salesman ? He’s not negotiating as he works for WTO Car Sales. | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. But what if the salesman knows by asking away you’re commiting to buy a car from another dealer ? And knows the terms ? The reality is we have said, we will only pay X for a car, not a penny more, so don't show me any that are more expensive. We flat out refuse to buy any optional extras, so don't even bother talking about them or discounting them. Oh, and I need the car for Monday because otherwise I'll lose my job and can't pay the mortgage. Right, so what's the best deal you can do? But we don't need the car for Monday. If he hasn't sold us the car by Monday, it's his loss. We'll still get to work. It may be a little harder for a while, but we'll still get there. And btw, if he doesn't sell .e that car, well, I'll get another elsewhere. It may come as a surprise to you, but there is more than 1 car dealer to do business with." And yet only 1 EU. | |||
"Imagine going into a car showroom, seeing a car for £20,000, and the two possible negotiating tactics you're considering using. The first is "Hello, Mr Car Salesman. I am going to buy this car. It doesn't matter what deal you offer me, nor in fact if you put the price up... I am going to buy it irrespective" You walk out of the garage, having bought the car...you have also purchased a service plan, new tyres (the ones on their were legal, but a bit worn), paintwork insurance. You do, however, have the standard 12 month warranty included, but you've upgraded it to 24 months. You've paid £22,000 in total. He didn't even offer you a cup of tea. But you didn't need one, you were only in there for 10 minutes. The first thing you do is fill it up on their forecourt. £60, thank you very much, sir. That was 10 years ago. Since then you've changed your car 3 times, and bought your wife 2. You've never been back to that garage, in fact, you've never gound a garage that you'd go back to, let alone recommend to your friends. In total you've spent £140,000 on buying cars in the last decade. The second is; "Hello, Mr Car Salesman, I'm interested in that car there, could we discuss it?" After a short while, you've got a service plan included, paid 50 % of the cost for paintwork insurance, new tyres are going to be put on FOC, you've got 2 year's warranty. "That works out to £20,250, sir", says the salesman. "Knock the odd £250 off, fill the tank and we've got a deal" "I can't do that, sir" "Fair enough, then we haven't got a deal" You get up to walk away. "Wait a minute... Let me go and see my manager, see if I can persuade him to do something" 2 minutes later, the car salesman comes back, tells you he's really had to persuade his manager, but holds out his hand. "It's a deal" You shake hands on it, finish your second cup of coffee, and leave with your new car. That was 10 years ago....in that time you've changed your car 3 times, bought your wife 2 cars, and recommended the garage to several friends, 3 of who have also bought cars there. In total you've spent over £120,000 with them, your friends a further £50,000. You always fill up with fuel rhere, too. And just to think, if that salesman hadn't knocked that £250 off, that £170,000 would have gone elsewhere. And all because you were prepared to walk away. " The analogy demonstrates a mindset that is somewhat deluded. There is no a walk away / no deal option. There has never been and there never will be. All of the bluff and bluster about walking away is an attempt to rally the concept of the UK being in charge of these negotiations - they are not. Anybody with even the remotest understanding of trade, commerce and our place in the EU and world at large knows that no deal is simply not an option. Anyone trotting out the walk away / no deal idea is as clueless as the man walking into a showroom with a gun and demanding to buy a car at a 50% discount or he would shoot himself in both feet and both legs. As we have seen, the EU negotiators are head and shoulders above David Davis - a man who is still in the process of figuring out how the EU actually works, two years into the process of leaving it. The UK will be at or close to one of the points marked on Barniers illustration from a few months ago - depending on what the UK does about its "red lines". | |||
