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Brexit and logical argument
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Brexiters are to logical argument as kids are to vegetables. They know they should and its good for them but theyd rather have the sweets that will ultimately make them unhealthier but feel better in the short term. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Brexiters are to logical argument as kids are to vegetables. They know they should and its good for them but theyd rather have the sweets that will ultimately make them unhealthier but feel better in the short term."
Brexiters are vegetables ....
FIFY   |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts."
Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England ! |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !"
Why? What is so great about independence? Indepence from what anyway?
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"Did somebody say something?????
You have made my point far, far more succinctly than I did.
You gave your opinion based on absolutely no information whatsoever."
You posted a thread and then deleted the OP. What response were you expecting? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !
Why? What is so great about independence? Indepence from what anyway?
"
Go and ask any independent country that !
Country's have wars to get thier independence !
Independent from the U K
Or are only the Scots allowed to say it ? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Did somebody say something?????
You have made my point far, far more succinctly than I did.
You gave your opinion based on absolutely no information whatsoever.
You posted a thread and then deleted the OP. What response were you expecting? "
Bless. You can work out exactly what happened can't you? There was no response necessary, but you did anyway and have now ignored the actual point of the thread.
Bless  |
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"Did somebody say something?????
You have made my point far, far more succinctly than I did.
You gave your opinion based on absolutely no information whatsoever.
You posted a thread and then deleted the OP. What response were you expecting? "
I think that was the best part! It made this thread the best one I've ever seen (albeit by accident) : Brexit and logical argument - no comment!
lol  |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !
Why? What is so great about independence? Indepence from what anyway?
Go and ask any independent country that !
Country's have wars to get thier independence !
Independent from the U K
Or are only the Scots allowed to say it ?"
And what is the point? For what reason? What difference would it make to you as an individual?
I don't recall East Germany being thrilled with their independence from West Germany. NI Doesn't seem to want independence, they seem to want to join Eire. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !"
You know what? That's fine.
It's trying to express a feeling of not being in control.
I don't think that Brexit will help this at all, but I can understand it. |
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"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !
You know what? That's fine.
It's trying to express a feeling of not being in control.
I don't think that Brexit will help this at all, but I can understand it."
Because hand in hand with the emotional desire to go back to the old days / be independent is the emotional belief that Britain is the best at everything. If they believe that then they cant accept that Britain is best when it work with the 27 other countries in the EU. Thats why most like to believe that trade deals will be better after Brexit because Britain has the best products, best consumers, best trade negotiators and countries will be queueing up to give the Toriea whatever they want in negotiations just to trade with the UK. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !
Why? What is so great about independence? Indepence from what anyway?
Go and ask any independent country that !
Country's have wars to get thier independence !
Independent from the U K
Or are only the Scots allowed to say it ?
And what is the point? For what reason? What difference would it make to you as an individual?
I don't recall East Germany being thrilled with their independence from West Germany. NI Doesn't seem to want independence, they seem to want to join Eire. "
East Germany were Thrilled to be free from the USSR .
While were at it , go ask the former now independent country's if they want to re join a USSR
?
Or Pakistan if they want to re Join India
Or The Palestinians if they really want to be free if Israel ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !"
At least you're open and honest. I mean this is all very clearly emotive.
And independant england wont happen its its own accord.
In addition the traditional view of a nation state is illogical and unworkable in todays globalised world. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !
Why? What is so great about independence? Indepence from what anyway?
Go and ask any independent country that !
Country's have wars to get thier independence !
Independent from the U K
Or are only the Scots allowed to say it ?
And what is the point? For what reason? What difference would it make to you as an individual?
I don't recall East Germany being thrilled with their independence from West Germany. NI Doesn't seem to want independence, they seem to want to join Eire. East Germany were Thrilled to be free from the USSR .
While were at it , go ask the former now independent country's if they want to re join a USSR
?
Or Pakistan if they want to re Join India
Or The Palestinians if they really want to be free if Israel !"
The USSR quite literally put people in gulags and worked them to death. They deliberately orchestrated famines like the holomodor.
Anyone would prefer not to be bound in near slavery to a Union like that.
The EU might have freespeech issues atm but come on. Its not as bad as the USSR.
Honestly, i think palestine should be free from israel and iseal from them. But jerusalem has to be neutral.
Freedom and independance is great. But the flip side is that you are 100% responcible for all your decisions. You vote a twat in, you shoulder that twats cock up.
Also independance isnt much good if youre comparitively poor. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Everything about brexit is a belief. It’s about predicting two futures and deciding which is better.
Whether some believes have more crediblity is another matter. But strawmaning a load of questions doesn’t help show this is a logical debate.
To try and counterbalance...
All FoM is good
It’s better to have a union negotiate my wages than agree a bespoke flexible remuneration package.
At no point does a democracy get so large my voice ceases to matter.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
No matter which "side" your on, the truth is NOBODY knows what will happen - guestimates are multiple we ALL just have to wait and see. There's a chance it could be great or a catastrophe - time will tell. The only thing is it will be us who have to deal with it. Roll on 2019 it can't come soon enough at least we will know where we stand. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Well you have now !
I voted leave as I want an independent country . Look after ourselves and sort our own problems .
To leave straight away !
Ideally I'd also have an independent England !
Why? What is so great about independence? Indepence from what anyway?
"
This is the issue I am discussing. You are asking for a logical answer for an emotional response.
What's the emotional answer to this desire for independence?
I'm not sure I know how to approach a response in this way.
Anyone have any ideas? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
I have noticed that so far no Leave supporter has answered the questions that I laid out.
Do you not agree with them or do they not align with your view of yourselves when written down without obfuscation? |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Brexiters are to logical argument as kids are to vegetables. They know they should and its good for them but theyd rather have the sweets that will ultimately make them unhealthier but feel better in the short term."
Good with the insults that are of a purile nature
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Brexiters are to logical argument as kids are to vegetables. They know they should and its good for them but theyd rather have the sweets that will ultimately make them unhealthier but feel better in the short term.Good with the insults that are of a purile nature"
How about you try to dispell the Op's assertions in a way which doesnt make his position look stronger? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"No matter which "side" your on, the truth is NOBODY knows what will happen - guestimates are multiple we ALL just have to wait and see. There's a chance it could be great or a catastrophe - time will tell. The only thing is it will be us who have to deal with it. Roll on 2019 it can't come soon enough at least we will know where we stand."
The truth is, if you jump out of an aeroplane at 35,000 feet, no-one knows what will happen. There is a chance that everything will be fine, or it could be catastrophic. Let’s just get up there and jump instead of talking about it - at least then we will know for sure.
And before you say it is a false analogy because no-one knows the collective effects of leaving... What we can reasonably assess are the consequences of individual actions and therefore make a fairly reasoned argument as to what the collective result will be.
As of today, two years on from the referendum and 14 months after signing A50 there has been absolutely nothing at all to suggest that Brexit will be anything other than damaging to the U.K. and its citizens. The Govts own assessments cannot make a financially positive case for Brexit and there has only been 1 Independent economic assessment that suggested Brexit could be positive and that was widely criticised because its model relied on the EU increasing its external tariffs whilst the U.K. had tariff free deals with those same countries.
The fact is, only a fool would jump out of an aeroplane at 35,000 because the consequences are fairly evident to even the shallowest of thinkers. Brexit too will have serious consequences in any which way it is delivered and as those consequences will be felt for generations to come, it is absolutely right that the Govt is held to account for the way that they go about this.
“Just get on with it” is actually a euphemism for “I can’t be bothered to think, it is all too complicated - but I will blame someone else if I don’t like the outcome.” |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I have noticed that so far no Leave supporter has answered the questions that I laid out.
Do you not agree with them or do they not align with your view of yourselves when written down without obfuscation? "
I think it’s more down to the futile arguments put by the remain side over again because things did not go thier way |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
Let me reiterate; I do not think that
wanting or not wanting to leave the EU for a strong emotional reason is any less valid than for a logical reason.
I cannot see and have not been convinced of a logical argument to leave. There are lots of things about the EU that are less than ideal and bad. Just like the UK.
I would really just like to know if any Leavers hold to the statements that I've set out below. There seems to be a reluctance to do so but I do not know if this is because this is not what leavers believe or if it is because they don't sound very high-minded when written down.
If not, what emotion is driving a desire to leave? Fear, anger, disgust, sadness? Not happiness or surprise I assume.
After the initial joy of leaving is this positive emotion likely to last very long?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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As a migrant in another EU country Brexit has many realities for us. We take it very seriously as it has implications. We have attended British Embassy meetings as to what may happen and what we should do. There are potential significant costs involved. We are registered with the embassy here in France and we get numerous emails from the UK government on a number of subjects. Today we received an email:
DEXEU SPEND OVER £25,000 APRIL 2018
HM TREASURY £34,000 (IT)
BOSTON CONSULTANT £960,000 (CONSULTING SERVICES )
CLARITY TRAVEL £98,000 (TRAVEL)
KPMG £159,000 (STAFF TRAINING)
INTERSERVE £62,000 (ESTATE FACILITIES )
FCO SERVICES £25,000 (PROFESSIONAL SERVICES )
This is only 1 months expenditures over £25k how much did they spend under that limit? This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't. Hope it's worth it? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"As a migrant in another EU country Brexit has many realities for us. We take it very seriously as it has implications. We have attended British Embassy meetings as to what may happen and what we should do. There are potential significant costs involved. We are registered with the embassy here in France and we get numerous emails from the UK government on a number of subjects. Today we received an email:
DEXEU SPEND OVER £25,000 APRIL 2018
HM TREASURY £34,000 (IT)
BOSTON CONSULTANT £960,000 (CONSULTING SERVICES )
CLARITY TRAVEL £98,000 (TRAVEL)
KPMG £159,000 (STAFF TRAINING)
INTERSERVE £62,000 (ESTATE FACILITIES )
FCO SERVICES £25,000 (PROFESSIONAL SERVICES )
This is only 1 months expenditures over £25k how much did they spend under that limit? This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't. Hope it's worth it?"
UK net contribution to EU April 2018... £750,000,000. This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"As a migrant in another EU country Brexit has many realities for us. We take it very seriously as it has implications. We have attended British Embassy meetings as to what may happen and what we should do. There are potential significant costs involved. We are registered with the embassy here in France and we get numerous emails from the UK government on a number of subjects. Today we received an email:
DEXEU SPEND OVER £25,000 APRIL 2018
HM TREASURY £34,000 (IT)
BOSTON CONSULTANT £960,000 (CONSULTING SERVICES )
CLARITY TRAVEL £98,000 (TRAVEL)
KPMG £159,000 (STAFF TRAINING)
INTERSERVE £62,000 (ESTATE FACILITIES )
FCO SERVICES £25,000 (PROFESSIONAL SERVICES )
This is only 1 months expenditures over £25k how much did they spend under that limit? This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't. Hope it's worth it?
UK net contribution to EU April 2018... £750,000,000. This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't."
Yes you are right we agree. However, you forget that we are a member of the EU now and that's part of our membership - the figures I quoted are our voluntary spending to enable us to leave. These costs were never discussed. We cannot just walk away - it's not like switching a light on and off. So whilst I agree there is a cost - but we are spending a lot more on leaving than anybody ever knew. If you add the salaries, pensions etc of the employees in the department and the expenditure
Under £25k - all I quoted was "the tip of the iceberg"! |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"As a migrant in another EU country Brexit has many realities for us. We take it very seriously as it has implications. We have attended British Embassy meetings as to what may happen and what we should do. There are potential significant costs involved. We are registered with the embassy here in France and we get numerous emails from the UK government on a number of subjects. Today we received an email:
DEXEU SPEND OVER £25,000 APRIL 2018
HM TREASURY £34,000 (IT)
BOSTON CONSULTANT £960,000 (CONSULTING SERVICES )
CLARITY TRAVEL £98,000 (TRAVEL)
KPMG £159,000 (STAFF TRAINING)
INTERSERVE £62,000 (ESTATE FACILITIES )
FCO SERVICES £25,000 (PROFESSIONAL SERVICES )
This is only 1 months expenditures over £25k how much did they spend under that limit? This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't. Hope it's worth it?
UK net contribution to EU April 2018... £750,000,000. This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't."
is this the only reason for leaving the EU? Only financial? Do we get any financial benefit from the outlay?
Are you making a logical decision? No emotions? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"As a migrant in another EU country Brexit has many realities for us. We take it very seriously as it has implications. We have attended British Embassy meetings as to what may happen and what we should do. There are potential significant costs involved. We are registered with the embassy here in France and we get numerous emails from the UK government on a number of subjects. Today we received an email:
DEXEU SPEND OVER £25,000 APRIL 2018
HM TREASURY £34,000 (IT)
BOSTON CONSULTANT £960,000 (CONSULTING SERVICES )
CLARITY TRAVEL £98,000 (TRAVEL)
KPMG £159,000 (STAFF TRAINING)
INTERSERVE £62,000 (ESTATE FACILITIES )
FCO SERVICES £25,000 (PROFESSIONAL SERVICES )
This is only 1 months expenditures over £25k how much did they spend under that limit? This money could have been spent on NHS, SOCIAL SERVICES, POLICE but it wasn't. Hope it's worth it?"
Can I ask how this relates to this thread?
A remainer with another logical argument?
Missing leavers willing to explain their position... |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not othering to respond "
I don't want want to want to argue. I'd like an honest, self-critocal response about the motivation for leaving. Something beyond repeating the standard Brexit phrases.
I am on record as saying that there is plenty wrong with the EU, but that the alternative of being alone in the world seems far worse to me. This opinion is due on part to fear. Nothing that has been said or recent events in the world has convinced me that the consequences of leaving will be anything but negative for me personally as well as the country at large.
Would any leaver care to give an honest response? |
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"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not othering to respond
I don't want want to want to argue. I'd like an honest, self-critocal response about the motivation for leaving. Something beyond repeating the standard Brexit phrases.
I am on record as saying that there is plenty wrong with the EU, but that the alternative of being alone in the world seems far worse to me. This opinion is due on part to fear. Nothing that has been said or recent events in the world has convinced me that the consequences of leaving will be anything but negative for me personally as well as the country at large.
Would any leaver care to give an honest response?"
I really don't think you're gonna get the response you're after. Not because of lack of honesty but because I can't for the life of me imagine why or how the average person feels "oppressed" (in practical terms) with the UK being part of the EU. I would love (and I have asked a lot of people) to hear examples about how being in the EU actually affects their lives negatively. I haven't had any satisfactory or enlightening response other than the regurgitation of what was spouted by various ideology driven politicians during the campaign, e.g. we want to take back control, we want sovereignty, blah blah. When pressed, on how the supposed current lack of everything mentioned, affects them personally, no reply (except for the odd one here and there who spoke about very specific ways in which certain EU laws/regulations affected/limited how they run their business). No disagreement either when I pointed out that had the government kept on top of things on a local/domestic level, people would not have felt so desperate that, once presented with the promise of a "magical" solution, they grabbed it with both hands.
I completely agree with you that the EU is far from perfect. There is A LOT wrong with it. But it's a lot *less* than going it alone. Had we stayed in (and we took the issue of reform seriously - unlike Cameron's half arsed poor excuse for concessions) now (with everything happening around Europe) there's the most fertile ground for actual reform of the whole union. Not by asking for individual country concessions but by getting the other member states on board too and together push for change on the issues that we (and them) are not happy with. It's not just us that are unhappy with the immigration rules or the other ways in which the EU is run. Many voices together would have been heard louder rather than a solitary one asking for special treatment. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness."
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is "
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is "
I couldn't see much wrong with the EU but I'm a libtard green voting remoaning europhile.. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness."
Why would we agree anymore than leave supporters would agree on why they want to leave or what fformat of Brent is appropriate?
I needs reforming in my opinion?
Cost reductions in salaries and expenses for staff, both elected and unelected.
End the annual migration of the Parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg.
More sensible implementation of the CAP.
Better auditing and control of how national governments spend EU grant money (or is this interfering with sovereignty? ).
Defined immigration policy and strategy.
Enough for now?
How about responding to my query about which statements you agree with and if your desire to leave are more concrete than instinctive and emotional?
Once again, they are allowed to be.
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'? "
The North has done much better out of the EU than the SE because EU funding projects have been mainly concentrated in deprived regions. Unfortunately, successive Govts have failed to acknowledge EU positives whilst very quickly acknowledging it as a scapegoat when things go wrong.
Where I live the EU has part funded a large number of regeneration projects to support the former coalfield communities that were so ravaged. These projects have brought new jobs to an area that has been ignored by the Conservatives because they would never get a look in and similarly ignored by Labour because folks round here would (and have) voted in anyone wearing a red rosette, |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'? "
How has membership of the EUROPEAN brought this about? Didn't we do this to ourselves?
Once again, to you, do you feel that your desire to leave the EU was logical or emotional?
What's your reaction to the statements that have now posted twice in this thread? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'? "
Nope. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'?
Nope."
Coming from the north it's always been like that. I left the north in 70's never to return other than visit family. The problem is that wealth/investment in the UK is not fairly distributed -predominantly in the south. That's just the way it is - will it change? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'?
Nope.
Coming from the north it's always been like that. I left the north in 70's never to return other than visit family. The problem is that wealth/investment in the UK is not fairly distributed -predominantly in the south. That's just the way it is - will it change?"
This is historically the same in all countries. Wealth I'd concentrated in the region's adjacent to trade.
The UK was an anachronism for a time when resource was concentrated in the North and South West. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is "
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Do you think, _lcc, that while being in Europe, the north of the uk has been sacrificed for the benefit of the south, resulting in the north thinking 'sod it, we might as well get out the eu cos were not getting anything from it'?
Nope."
Ok, so why did labour supporters in the north, defy the labour message? |
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"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness."
Did you ask us? No. So spare me the patronising. Why do you need one or two or more lists of what a reformed EU is anyway? Because you *don't know* WHY *you* voted leave and you want to get ideas for answers from those lists for future reference?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day "
Everything evolves. Simple really. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
Did you ask us? No. So spare me the patronising. Why do you need one or two or more lists of what a reformed EU is anyway? Because you *don't know* WHY *you* voted leave and you want to get ideas for answers from those lists for future reference? "
The point I'm making, and is clearly lost on you, is that, in just the same way that you say 'leavers didn't know what they were voting for', remainers didn't know what they were voting for. Even on this thread, there have been several remainers who have different views on whether the EU is fine as it is, or needs changing. So even remainers can't agree on the EU! |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Everything evolves. Simple really. "
The same as when we leave....it will evolve. Simple really. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day "
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
|
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The point I'm making, and is clearly lost on you, is that, in just the same way that you say 'leavers didn't know what they were voting for', remainers didn't know what they were voting for. Even on this thread, there have been several remainers who have different views on whether the EU is fine as it is, or needs changing. So even remainers can't agree on the EU!"
No. I voted to remain in the EU under the current conditions with the desire to change them which has always been what this country has done.
The vote to leave the EU was just that. Despite Centaur's insistence that it was clear what that meant it very obviously was not because the government still does not have a negating position does it?
Once again, did you vote on emotion or logic?
Which of these statements do you disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Everything evolves. Simple really.
The same as when we leave....it will evolve. Simple really."
Evolve from what starting point? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
"
The UK and other countries are continually trying to reform the EU. It's quite big and complex though with different interests to balance.
Would you like to make a list of what requires reform in the UK?
Who's list will that agree with? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
"
I’m sorry, I will not respond to childish questions . And I never said that the UK had been ‘forced’ to accept any EU legislation. I said that if a UK government ‘chooses’ to accept an EU legislation but the People don’t like it, then what can they do about it? NADA. Whereas if a UK government brings in legislation that the people don’t like then they have the power to elect another government that will change that legislation. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
I’m sorry, I will not respond to childish questions . And I never said that the UK had been ‘forced’ to accept any EU legislation. I said that if a UK government ‘chooses’ to accept an EU legislation but the People don’t like it, then what can they do about it? NADA. Whereas if a UK government brings in legislation that the people don’t like then they have the power to elect another government that will change that legislation. "
Why is it any different? If the U.K. govt brings in legislation we don’t like we can vote for different MPs. If the U.K. govt chooses to accept EU legislation that we don’t like then we can vote for different MEPs. Considering only a third of the U.K. electorate bothered to vote for an MEP, I really don’t think people are really all that bothered.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not othering to respond "
I totally agree
It will take the next decade or longer but the UK WILL be stronger and WILL be making its own decisions.
Ted Heath took us into this.
Theresa May will be taking us out.
Proud (English) Brexiteer here
Let’s face facts ....Brexit is happening |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not othering to respond
I totally agree
It will take the next decade or longer but the UK WILL be stronger and WILL be making its own decisions.
Ted Heath took us into this.
Theresa May will be taking us out.
Proud (English) Brexiteer here
Let’s face facts ....Brexit is happening "
Are you guaranteeing that?
Why 10 years?
I am not prepared to wait 10 years!
In short, nobody voted to struggle for another 10+ years sunshine!!!
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
I’m sorry, I will not respond to childish questions . And I never said that the UK had been ‘forced’ to accept any EU legislation. I said that if a UK government ‘chooses’ to accept an EU legislation but the People don’t like it, then what can they do about it? NADA. Whereas if a UK government brings in legislation that the people don’t like then they have the power to elect another government that will change that legislation.
Why is it any different? If the U.K. govt brings in legislation we don’t like we can vote for different MPs. If the U.K. govt chooses to accept EU legislation that we don’t like then we can vote for different MEPs. Considering only a third of the U.K. electorate bothered to vote for an MEP, I really don’t think people are really all that bothered.
-Matt"
and what good would electing different MEP’s do? Do you think that they could get the legislation overturned? Seriously? And most people don’t vote for an MEP because they realise that there is no point to them. As I said earlier, they are simply there to give us plebs the illusion of democracy |
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"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
I’m sorry, I will not respond to childish questions . And I never said that the UK had been ‘forced’ to accept any EU legislation. I said that if a UK government ‘chooses’ to accept an EU legislation but the People don’t like it, then what can they do about it? NADA. Whereas if a UK government brings in legislation that the people don’t like then they have the power to elect another government that will change that legislation.
Why is it any different? If the U.K. govt brings in legislation we don’t like we can vote for different MPs. If the U.K. govt chooses to accept EU legislation that we don’t like then we can vote for different MEPs. Considering only a third of the U.K. electorate bothered to vote for an MEP, I really don’t think people are really all that bothered.
-Matt and what good would electing different MEP’s do? Do you think that they could get the legislation overturned? Seriously? And most people don’t vote for an MEP because they realise that there is no point to them. As I said earlier, they are simply there to give us plebs the illusion of democracy "
Even if the UK population all voted for the same party in the MEP elections, the number of UK MEP's in the European Parliament are still a minority (compared against all other MEP's from other countries). Ukip won the highest number of MEP's in the UK at the last European elections, but when Ukip MEP's tried to stop the appointment of Jean Claude Juncker as President, it didn't get through. Some of the UK Conservative MEP's also joined Ukip in trying to stop the appointment of Juncker as Cameron was opposed to Juncker being President as well. Even with Ukip and Conservative MEP's combined still couldn't stop Juncker getting the Presidency. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
I’m sorry, I will not respond to childish questions . And I never said that the UK had been ‘forced’ to accept any EU legislation. I said that if a UK government ‘chooses’ to accept an EU legislation but the People don’t like it, then what can they do about it? NADA. Whereas if a UK government brings in legislation that the people don’t like then they have the power to elect another government that will change that legislation. "
Why are you responding to the thread if you don't wish to respond to the fundamental answer posed?
They are some simple, direct questions. Are they too difficult? Childish implies not, so please indulge me otherwise why waste a post to make no useful contribution?
What specific legislation in the UK have you wanted reversed have been due to a change of government?
What specific new EU legislation have you wanted reversed? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not othering to respond
I totally agree
It will take the next decade or longer but the UK WILL be stronger and WILL be making its own decisions.
Ted Heath took us into this.
Theresa May will be taking us out.
Proud (English) Brexiteer here
Let’s face facts ....Brexit is happening "
So you voted on an emotional basis or do you feel this is a logical position? |
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"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not bothering to respond
"
Also agree with this. Remainers put many of these so called logical arguments forward during the referendum campaign in 2016, and lost the referendum on the back of these arguments. I've no idea why they think regurgitating the same old shit tired arguments they made before will change anyone's mind now? Most polls suggest people haven't changed their minds about how they voted in the referendum and don't intend to change their minds. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
"
Quotes from years ago. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"And what chance a reformed EU when on this thread alone just 4 or 5 EU supporters can’t agree on how much or if any at all is needed? The problem with the EU is that the people of Europe are given very little say on how things are run and just given a system that is an illusion of democracy, I am surprised so many fall for it. If a majority UK government introduced a policy or passed a law that the UK people decided that they didn’t like then an opposition can be elected to change that law as per the will of the people. If the EU introduces a law and that same majority UK government agrees with it and put it into law but the majority of people in the UK decide that they don’t want this new law, what can they do about it? Elect the opposition? No point because there is nothing they could about it. This isn’t democracy. The only option available would be to leave the EU. And then we have the reactions to what has been happening in Italy this week, the German EU finance minister openly showing contempt for the people of Italy and making threats towards them for simply wanting change and for voting the ‘wrong ‘ way. And the casual racism that came from Juncker accusing southern Italians of being corrupt and lazy. Anyone who supports an organisation with the likes of these people at the top really need to take a good look at themselves and maybe think again. Have a nice day
Why do we have to agree? Does anyone agree about Brexit policy? Does anyone agree on every policy that a political party has?
Do please explain how the British parliamentary system differs from the EU one other than scale? What proportion proportion of legislation has has the UK been "forced" to accept against its will?
Juniper is an objectionable man who is the wrong person at the wrong time and I wish he wasn't elected. I feel the same way about many British prime ministers and politicians. How about you.
Every few years we have a vote on our government to try to get "the right answer". Perhaps we should stop?
I'll also draw your attention to the fact that the League in Italy blamed southern Italians for all of the country's problems until this year.
Sadly, once again the thread is nowhere near it's purpose.
Is your position on the EU emotional or logical?
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
I’m sorry, I will not respond to childish questions . And I never said that the UK had been ‘forced’ to accept any EU legislation. I said that if a UK government ‘chooses’ to accept an EU legislation but the People don’t like it, then what can they do about it? NADA. Whereas if a UK government brings in legislation that the people don’t like then they have the power to elect another government that will change that legislation.
Why is it any different? If the U.K. govt brings in legislation we don’t like we can vote for different MPs. If the U.K. govt chooses to accept EU legislation that we don’t like then we can vote for different MEPs. Considering only a third of the U.K. electorate bothered to vote for an MEP, I really don’t think people are really all that bothered.
-Matt and what good would electing different MEP’s do? Do you think that they could get the legislation overturned? Seriously? And most people don’t vote for an MEP because they realise that there is no point to them. As I said earlier, they are simply there to give us plebs the illusion of democracy
Even if the UK population all voted for the same party in the MEP elections, the number of UK MEP's in the European Parliament are still a minority (compared against all other MEP's from other countries). Ukip won the highest number of MEP's in the UK at the last European elections, but when Ukip MEP's tried to stop the appointment of Jean Claude Juncker as President, it didn't get through. Some of the UK Conservative MEP's also joined Ukip in trying to stop the appointment of Juncker as Cameron was opposed to Juncker being President as well. Even with Ukip and Conservative MEP's combined still couldn't stop Juncker getting the Presidency. "
I don't like Junker. Is an arrogant, imperious old man. However, if we weren't persuasive enough in our argument and couldn't prevent his election then wasn't that our fault? Do you think there was a conspiracy against us or is that democracy?
Do please clarify. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Most leavers have grown tired of the same old arguments put forward over and over again so are not bothering to respond
Also agree with this. Remainers put many of these so called logical arguments forward during the referendum campaign in 2016, and lost the referendum on the back of these arguments. I've no idea why they think regurgitating the same old shit tired arguments they made before will change anyone's mind now? Most polls suggest people haven't changed their minds about how they voted in the referendum and don't intend to change their minds. "
Let's go again then. Let's see if you can actually address the thread. I am not making any argument nor trying to persuade anyone should you care to read rather than assume.
Did you vote on an emotional or logical basis?
Neither option has more merit in my opinion. What do you think?
Which of these statements do you disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
The UK and other countries are continually trying to reform the EU. It's quite big and complex though with different interests to balance.
Would you like to make a list of what requires reform in the UK?
Who's list will that agree with?"
You do realise it was a referendum on staying in the EU, don't you? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
Quotes from years ago. "
Yes, from just before and during the referendum campaign..... |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
The UK and other countries are continually trying to reform the EU. It's quite big and complex though with different interests to balance.
Would you like to make a list of what requires reform in the UK?
Who's list will that agree with?
You do realise it was a referendum on staying in the EU, don't you?"
You can't draw the parallel? Really? Bless 
Let me make it crystal clear.
The only point that you are making is that remainers cannot agree on what form reform of the European should take. Why is that any different to anyone in the UK not agreeing what reform is is needed in the UK? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mast two posters have both said that there is a lot wrong with the EU......
Do they agree on everything that is wrong, or would there ne differences of opinion.
Time and time again I have heard remainers talk about staying in a 'reformed EU'....i've yet to hear anyone say what they mean by regorm, nor, indeed, what needs reforming, how, and to what.
Apparently, though, this is not cluelessness.
I have hardly ever seen people talk about a reformed EU. I'm happy with the EU the way it is
Oh dear, for someone who 'analyses' everything before making a decision, just a few examples of very many that you may have missed...
Stronger in......Feb 18 2016
"The leaders of all the major political parties are in favour of Britain remaining a member of a reformed EU."
Independent....June 22 2016
"David Cameron has said repeatedly that he will use a Remain vote to push for further reform of the EU"
Jeremy Corbyn, Guardian, Feb 2016
"Labour will campaign for Britain to stay in Europe in the referendum.... That’s not because we don’t think the EU needs reform – far from it.
BBC News, 2nd June 2016
Jeremy Corbyn..we have clearly stated our position to remain and reform
Matthew Hancock, 23 May 2016
"We must ensure Britain stays in a reformed EU"
17 Jan 2016
Conservatives for Reform in Europe (CRE), believes that the UK should remain part of a reformed EU.
Feb 2016
Tim Farron will tell the (Scottish Lib Dem) conference the Lib Dems "very much want reform" of the EU
The UK and other countries are continually trying to reform the EU. It's quite big and complex though with different interests to balance.
Would you like to make a list of what requires reform in the UK?
Who's list will that agree with?
You do realise it was a referendum on staying in the EU, don't you?"
Also I'd appreciate you actually responding totthe thread;
Did you vote emotionally or logically?
Which of these statements do you disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
Also I'd appreciate you actually responding totthe thread;
There is no thread as such. You deleted the OP. "
It's a few posts down but I'll restate it just for you:
It's taken the better part of two years to work out why the Brexit arguments on here leave me frustrated.
I think that I've found an answer that makes sense to me.
Those who support Brexit have presented it as a logical argument. That we will be wealthier and happier due "better" trade deals and "less red tape" and more money to spend in the UK.
In all of these threads I have not seen a single one of these arguments hold together.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that Brexit is an emotional decision. There is nothing wrong with that. Human life and politics is a balance between logic and emotion. That is as it should be.
Why I find the Brexit threads so frustrating is that no Leaver will embrace the fact that their decision is driven by emotion. I do not know why. Is this felt to be less legitimate than logic? Is it it the self-perception of being clear thinking whilst those with other opinions are muddled "liberals" who are too idealistic and not realistic and "strong" enough?
I don't know.
Ultimately I find these "debates" unsatisfactory because instead of saying what they mean Leavers are trying to deploy "logic" and "facts" which do not support their arguments. If they said what they meant I would be far less annoyed about he whole sorry mess.
Which of these statements do Leavers disagree with?
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Immigrants are taking jobs from British people.
Immigrants claim more benefits than British people.
Immigrants commit more crime than British people.
Immigrants are acceptable if they behave in exactly the same way as we do.
Immigrants are acceptable if they have to leave when they were no longer needed.
Britain is better than all other countries.
The EU conspires against the UK.
The UK is forced to do things that it doesn't want to most of the time.
Britain will be richer outside of the EU.
These are all assertions and beliefs. Please do not claim otherwise. Vote on assertions and beliefs. Support assertions and beliefs. Please do not pretend that assertions and beliefs are the same as logic and facts."
I will play...
No UK citizen has missed out on a job they were qualified for to an EU citizen (and so all UK citizens are optimumly employed)
No EU citizen has taken more in benefits etc than they have paid in tax.
It is acceptable The rules on *acceptability* can be different depending on passports. And if we take the MFN approach of the EU there would be no detriment to the UK
The Uk is worse than the average EU country and so is dragged up by the average.
(I can’t do anything on conspiracy as I’ve never heard this pre the reforendum)
The Uk has never had any rules it does not agree with implemented.
Britain will be poorer WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY outside of the EU
(Btw I voted remain, but can see there is a scale to each argument and many could place the marker in a different place and get to leave)
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