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Will Italy be next
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? " No. X | |||
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? " No one knows how it's working out as we havnt left yet ! | |||
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"try reading the news "I have read it and it will be brexit in name only , the closest you will see to brexit is being in the EEA | |||
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"try reading the news
I have read it and it will be brexit in name only , the closest you will see to brexit is being in the EEA "the right wing co-alition has collapsed this evening  | |||
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"try reading the news
I have read it and it will be brexit in name only , the closest you will see to brexit is being in the EEA
the right wing co-alition has collapsed this evening "not quite.... what has happened is the coalition between the populist five star movement and the very right wing northern league has colapsed because the president of italy wouldn't endorse their choice of "economic minister" (their version of our chancellor) the person who they wanted was a very very anti EU person, who wanted to drive italy out of the Euro, and not honour any of the rescue deals the italian government already had with the EU.... he would have basically blown to bits the italian economy | |||
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"try reading the news
I have read it and it will be brexit in name only , the closest you will see to brexit is being in the EEA
the right wing co-alition has collapsed this evening
not quite.... what has happened is the coalition between the populist five star movement and the very right wing northern league has colapsed because the president of italy wouldn't endorse their choice of "economic minister" (their version of our chancellor)
the person who they wanted was a very very anti EU person, who wanted to drive italy out of the Euro, and not honour any of the rescue deals the italian government already had with the EU....
he would have basically blown to bits the italian economy"... so as i said ... it's collapsed | |||
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" ... so as i said ... it's collapsed "smartass....
anyway it looks like italy is going to have a technocratic government for the next few months... then another set of general elections... | |||
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"Looks like they will have to go back and vote again " By refusing to allow the coalition to form a government in Italy will only be counter productive an will be seen as anti democratic by the elite dismissing the democratic will of the people. As we have seen in Catalonia in Spain it was counter productive and it will galvanise support for the 5 star movement and the League and in the case of new elections could even see them gain more support. They get elected again the President won't be able to refuse a 2nd time. Yet again the elite show complete disdain for democracy and the will of the people. This isn't over by any stretch of the imagination and could now lead to a hardening of attitude in Italy and yet even more anti EU sentiment. | |||
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"i have to add that i predicted on a thread before their elections that the right wing scum suckers would fuck up and as always i was absolutely correct "So the left Stalin lockers always get it Right then ? | |||
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"Looks like they will have to go back and vote again By refusing to allow the coalition to form a government in Italy will only be counter productive an will be seen as anti democratic by the elite dismissing the democratic will of the people. As we have seen in Catalonia in Spain it was counter productive and it will galvanise support for the 5 star movement and the League and in the case of new elections could even see them gain more support. They get elected again the President won't be able to refuse a 2nd time. Yet again the elite show complete disdain for democracy and the will of the people. This isn't over by any stretch of the imagination and could now lead to a hardening of attitude in Italy and yet even more anti EU sentiment. " And what has happened in Catalonia since their declaration of independence? Sweet FA. | |||
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"Looks like they will have to go back and vote again By refusing to allow the coalition to form a government in Italy will only be counter productive an will be seen as anti democratic by the elite dismissing the democratic will of the people. As we have seen in Catalonia in Spain it was counter productive and it will galvanise support for the 5 star movement and the League and in the case of new elections could even see them gain more support. They get elected again the President won't be able to refuse a 2nd time. Yet again the elite show complete disdain for democracy and the will of the people. This isn't over by any stretch of the imagination and could now lead to a hardening of attitude in Italy and yet even more anti EU sentiment. " so you want to see a country go bankrupt so you can prove a point about brexit!!!! wow...... if you had seen anything economically in the last few day, when the ecomonic minister was announced, italy's credit rating fell 3 points.... and their government bonds were 1 level above "junk" status..... i think the fact you want to see people suffer actually says a lot....their pension pot would have run out within 3 months, and at the same time their public sector people would not have been paid! if you think the greek crisis was back... if italy goes tits up then it will be 10 times worse! | |||
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" And what has happened in Catalonia since their declaration of independence? Sweet FA." actually, the update is that The falangist government has found itself embroiled in the guratel corruption case that has rocked spanish politics and a date is being set for the 'no-confidence' vote this comming week. | |||
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"Looks like they will have to go back and vote again By refusing to allow the coalition to form a government in Italy will only be counter productive an will be seen as anti democratic by the elite dismissing the democratic will of the people. As we have seen in Catalonia in Spain it was counter productive and it will galvanise support for the 5 star movement and the League and in the case of new elections could even see them gain more support. They get elected again the President won't be able to refuse a 2nd time. Yet again the elite show complete disdain for democracy and the will of the people. This isn't over by any stretch of the imagination and could now lead to a hardening of attitude in Italy and yet even more anti EU sentiment. so you want to see a country go bankrupt so you can prove a point about brexit!!!! wow...... if you had seen anything economically in the last few day, when the ecomonic minister was announced, italy's credit rating fell 3 points.... and their government bonds were 1 level above "junk" status..... i think the fact you want to see people suffer actually says a lot....their pension pot would have run out within 3 months, and at the same time their public sector people would not have been paid! if you think the greek crisis was back... if italy goes tits up then it will be 10 times worse!" Fabio, the Euro is going to fail at some stage anyway even if Italy stay in it, this measure has just delayed the inevitable. As former governor of The Bank of England Mervyn King said before the EU referendum the Euro is doomed to failure. Just like when Catalonia were denied a government in Spain it ended up being counter productive and galvanised support for the separatists the exact same thing will now happen in Italy if there are new elections. I predict an even bigger majority for 5 star and the League next time. As for proving points it seems many remainers want Brexit to fail, and are looking to sabotage or frustrate the process to damage the UK just so they can prove a point and say 'I told you so'!!!!!! You see it all the time on here with Remainers gleefully jumping on any snippet of negativity. Even to the extent of doing damage to the UK, they'd rather support Brussels in these negotiations before their own country! Maybe take a look in the mirror before you start accusing other people of proving points! | |||
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? No one knows how it's working out as we havnt left yet !" Exactly why nobody else will take a leap of faith till we hit the ground | |||
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? No one knows how it's working out as we havnt left yet ! Exactly why nobody else will take a leap of faith till we hit the ground" But how is it looking so far? Is everything going our way? | |||
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"My good friends from Italy have had enough of the Germans ruling the eu ...they think another election will become a ...in or out referendum x" If they vote out, the Italians will learn the lessons that Greece did and change their minds because they are not stupid. Leaving the EU and presumably the Euro will mean: 1) An enormously devalued local currency created with economic strength of the junk economy. 2) A debt that will still be payable to the EU but from a massively devalued local currency. Italy has a large economy but its economic prosperity and stability is far better in the EU and Euro than outside it. There may be some dumb Italians (as there are dumb Brits) who think that they can walk away from the EU and their financial obligations but in a wider global context that just puts the country in the junk bond category. No one trusts a welcher. | |||
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"My good friends from Italy have had enough of the Germans ruling the eu ...they think another election will become a ...in or out referendum x If they vote out, the Italians will learn the lessons that Greece did and change their minds because they are not stupid. Leaving the EU and presumably the Euro will mean: 1) An enormously devalued local currency created with economic strength of the junk economy. 2) A debt that will still be payable to the EU but from a massively devalued local currency. Italy has a large economy but its economic prosperity and stability is far better in the EU and Euro than outside it. There may be some dumb Italians (as there are dumb Brits) who think that they can walk away from the EU and their financial obligations but in a wider global context that just puts the country in the junk bond category. No one trusts a welcher." I think you are jumping the gun a bit (nay a country mile) with that. Firstly neither 5 star nor the League have said anything about Italy leaving the EU. They haven't even said with any certainty that Italy will drop the Euro. Although to be fair they have dropped a few hints, their choice of finance minister probably being the biggest. The in/out of the EU/Euro debate (if there ever really was one) is well and truly on the back burner now. The Italians are furious and fully entitled to be so. They have had the result of their general election torn up and thrown in their faces by an unelected europhile president (no doubt on orders from Brussels and/or Berlin) To top it off they now have an EU stooge that has been foisted on them as interim PM. This is nothing more than the "democratic" EU using their usual party trick of if you vote for the wrong thing, keep voting until you get it right. This is no different to what they did in Greece and Ireland. Imagine if Labour win the next election and JC trundles off to Buck house thinking 'er Maj. will ask him to form a government. When he gets there the Queen tells him that she is asking some stooge from the house of lords to take over until a new election. Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. | |||
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"My good friends from Italy have had enough of the Germans ruling the eu ...they think another election will become a ...in or out referendum x If they vote out, the Italians will learn the lessons that Greece did and change their minds because they are not stupid. Leaving the EU and presumably the Euro will mean: 1) An enormously devalued local currency created with economic strength of the junk economy. 2) A debt that will still be payable to the EU but from a massively devalued local currency. Italy has a large economy but its economic prosperity and stability is far better in the EU and Euro than outside it. There may be some dumb Italians (as there are dumb Brits) who think that they can walk away from the EU and their financial obligations but in a wider global context that just puts the country in the junk bond category. No one trusts a welcher. I think you are jumping the gun a bit (nay a country mile) with that. Firstly neither 5 star nor the League have said anything about Italy leaving the EU. They haven't even said with any certainty that Italy will drop the Euro. Although to be fair they have dropped a few hints, their choice of finance minister probably being the biggest. The in/out of the EU/Euro debate (if there ever really was one) is well and truly on the back burner now. The Italians are furious and fully entitled to be so. They have had the result of their general election torn up and thrown in their faces by an unelected europhile president (no doubt on orders from Brussels and/or Berlin) To top it off they now have an EU stooge that has been foisted on them as interim PM. This is nothing more than the "democratic" EU using their usual party trick of if you vote for the wrong thing, keep voting until you get it right. This is no different to what they did in Greece and Ireland. Imagine if Labour win the next election and JC trundles off to Buck house thinking 'er Maj. will ask him to form a government. When he gets there the Queen tells him that she is asking some stooge from the house of lords to take over until a new election. Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. " So an internal, domestic election within Italy is in fact an EU coup? | |||
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"My good friends from Italy have had enough of the Germans ruling the eu ...they think another election will become a ...in or out referendum x If they vote out, the Italians will learn the lessons that Greece did and change their minds because they are not stupid. Leaving the EU and presumably the Euro will mean: 1) An enormously devalued local currency created with economic strength of the junk economy. 2) A debt that will still be payable to the EU but from a massively devalued local currency. Italy has a large economy but its economic prosperity and stability is far better in the EU and Euro than outside it. There may be some dumb Italians (as there are dumb Brits) who think that they can walk away from the EU and their financial obligations but in a wider global context that just puts the country in the junk bond category. No one trusts a welcher. I think you are jumping the gun a bit (nay a country mile) with that. Firstly neither 5 star nor the League have said anything about Italy leaving the EU. They haven't even said with any certainty that Italy will drop the Euro. Although to be fair they have dropped a few hints, their choice of finance minister probably being the biggest. The in/out of the EU/Euro debate (if there ever really was one) is well and truly on the back burner now. The Italians are furious and fully entitled to be so. They have had the result of their general election torn up and thrown in their faces by an unelected europhile president (no doubt on orders from Brussels and/or Berlin) To top it off they now have an EU stooge that has been foisted on them as interim PM. This is nothing more than the "democratic" EU using their usual party trick of if you vote for the wrong thing, keep voting until you get it right. This is no different to what they did in Greece and Ireland. Imagine if Labour win the next election and JC trundles off to Buck house thinking 'er Maj. will ask him to form a government. When he gets there the Queen tells him that she is asking some stooge from the house of lords to take over until a new election. Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. So an internal, domestic election within Italy is in fact an EU coup?" Of course not. But overturning the result most certainly is. Make no mistake that is what has happened there and Brussels grubby mits are all over it.. An unelected europhile president has parachuted an unelected europhile former IMF employee in to be PM against the wishes of the electorate. Not one Italian voted for the president, and not one Italian voted for their new PM. Democracy? My arse. | |||
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"italians are dancing in the streets with joy over the fact that the president had the balls to stand up to the Partito Nazionale Fascista and apply the constitution correctly .... the matter of the Partito Nazionale Fascista being too spineless to make an alternative selection and gutlessly collapsing the government like the snivelling shits that they are have shown that they are shower of useless shit who completely let the whole country down.... but that's standard for the fucking right wing as proven all over europe. go italy!! "Dancing in the streets? Where? Link please. | |||
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"Dancing in the streets? Where? Link please." once you've figured out how to google stuff, go look yourself instead of demanding that others spoonfeed you all the time | |||
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"Dancing in the streets? Where? Link please. once you've figured out how to google stuff, go look yourself instead of demanding that others spoonfeed you all the time" In other words there isn't one and it's just your usual foul mouthed bullshit. LOL. | |||
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"Dancing in the streets? Where? Link please. once you've figured out how to google stuff, go look yourself instead of demanding that others spoonfeed you all the time In other words there isn't one and it's just your usual foul mouthed bullshit. LOL. "there may be a silver surfers club near you that can help you understand how the internet works .... there's all kinds of things you can do with just some basic knowledge ... like searching for links that fab don't allow to be posted | |||
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" I can only imagine that the man and woman in the street is pretty cheesed off " yep .... you're imagining it | |||
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" I can only imagine that the man and woman in the street is pretty cheesed off yep .... you're imagining it "Yes, especially as recent polls in Italy show:- 82% of Italians don't trust Parliament. 82% of Italians aren't happy with the economic situation. 77% of Italians say that "elected officials don't care what people like me think" | |||
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" I can only imagine that the man and woman in the street is pretty cheesed off yep .... you're imagining it
Yes, especially as recent polls in Italy show:-
82% of Italians don't trust Parliament.
82% of Italians aren't happy with the economic situation.
77% of Italians say that "elected officials don't care what people like me think"
"the fact is that nobody at all care's what you think | |||
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" Of course not. But overturning the result most certainly is. Make no mistake that is what has happened there and Brussels grubby mits are all over it.. An unelected europhile president has parachuted an unelected europhile former IMF employee in to be PM against the wishes of the electorate. Not one Italian voted for the president, and not one Italian voted for their new PM. Democracy? My arse." oooh... so many things here.... 1) you say the italian president is unelected.... thats not true, it is voted on by parliament and senate.....he actually won the election over a "five star" backed candidate... 2) you say not one italian voted for the new PM... thats right! but here is the kicker, not one italian voted for the person the Five star and the League put up to be PM either!!! he was a comprise both sides accepted after 90 days...... 3) the president accepted every nomination for every position except one.... just one! if your coalition is that fragile you can't find one compromise replacement... that doesn't say much about the stability of the government... this move suits five star, because they are all about protest rather than governing..... being the adults rather than the screaming children if they were to govern and drive italy off the cliff, they never get another chance!!! they never get forgiven | |||
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"italians are dancing in the streets with joy over the fact that the president had the balls to stand up to the Partito Nazionale Fascista and apply the constitution correctly .... the matter of the Partito Nazionale Fascista being too spineless to make an alternative selection and gutlessly collapsing the government like the snivelling shits that they are have shown that they are shower of useless shit who completely let the whole country down.... but that's standard for the fucking right wing as proven all over europe. go italy!! "Wrong again, as usual. The 5 star party are more left than right and they had a bigger majority than the right wing League party. Also it's funny how you harp on about democracy in Catalonia and when practically the same thing happens in Italy you don't give a shit about democracy. You have shown no consistency at all. | |||
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"italians are dancing in the streets with joy over the fact that the president had the balls to stand up to the Partito Nazionale Fascista and apply the constitution correctly .... the matter of the Partito Nazionale Fascista being too spineless to make an alternative selection and gutlessly collapsing the government like the snivelling shits that they are have shown that they are shower of useless shit who completely let the whole country down.... but that's standard for the fucking right wing as proven all over europe. go italy!!
Wrong again, as usual. The 5 star party are more left than right and they had a bigger majority than the right wing League party. Also it's funny how you harp on about democracy in Catalonia and when practically the same thing happens in Italy you don't give a shit about democracy. You have shown no consistency at all. "you've been told some time ago by the mods to ignore my posts going forward .... now be a good little boy and do as you were told | |||
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"I can guarantee dancing and much drinking as I'm off to Tuscany on Wednesday. " | |||
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"Dancing in the streets? Where? Link please. once you've figured out how to google stuff, go look yourself instead of demanding that others spoonfeed you all the time In other words there isn't one and it's just your usual foul mouthed bullshit. LOL.
there may be a silver surfers club near you that can help you understand how the internet works .... there's all kinds of things you can do with just some basic knowledge ... like searching for links that fab don't allow to be posted "Still no link? Thought not. Insults aplenty though. Same old bullshit different day. | |||
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"5 star and the league are now talking about working together to impeach the Undemocratic President. Let's hope they are successful and the undemocratic old fart has his cards handed to him along with his ass on a plate. The unelected IMF Brussels stooge who has been parachuted in won't last 5 minutes either, as his position has to be approved by the Italian parliament, never gonna happen while 5 star and the league hold a majority together. There will be new elections in Italy before the end of the year and this new election will be an unofficial referendum on Italy remaining in the Euro and the EU or possibly leaving. " Oh Centaur, you are funny! | |||
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"5 star and the league are now talking about working together to impeach the Undemocratic President. Let's hope they are successful and the undemocratic old fart has his cards handed to him along with his ass on a plate. The unelected IMF Brussels stooge who has been parachuted in won't last 5 minutes either, as his position has to be approved by the Italian parliament, never gonna happen while 5 star and the league hold a majority together. There will be new elections in Italy before the end of the year and this new election will be an unofficial referendum on Italy remaining in the Euro and the EU or possibly leaving. Oh Centaur, you are funny!" What do you find funny about it? Everything I just posted was reported on the news last night (both the BBC and sky news). | |||
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"It's going to depend upon how their economy goes from now until the election as well as if they get nut job politicians imo. " it's already gone to shit for the rightwing coalition clowns ... the footage tonight of demonstrations against the sniveling shits of the failed rightwing fudge by those who voted for them is telling the true story of what's happening on the ground .... the growing number of protesters calling for the scalps of Di Maio, Salvini etc for deliberately playing the electorate with their lies is escalating .... both the spineless right wing arseholes have shat their pants and gone into hiding while they dribble out a stream of incoherent rambling fascist diarrhoea via the fake news sites on the web .... it a real turn of events now | |||
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"It's going to depend upon how their economy goes from now until the election as well as if they get nut job politicians imo. it's already gone to shit for the rightwing coalition clowns ... the footage tonight of demonstrations against the sniveling shits of the failed rightwing fudge by those who voted for them is telling the true story of what's happening on the ground .... the growing number of protesters calling for the scalps of Di Maio, Salvini etc for deliberately playing the electorate with their lies is escalating .... both the spineless right wing arseholes have shat their pants and gone into hiding while they dribble out a stream of incoherent rambling fascist diarrhoea via the fake news sites on the web .... it a real turn of events now "Dear lord dude, take a breath and chillax! I was fully expecting the "N" word to be thrown in there somewhere!!  | |||
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"Italy will start the domino effect the EU will collapse in the next few years and all you remainers will be saying thank god we are out,you will see" I thought brexit was the start of the domino effect that would destroy the EU and bring about a 1000 year Reich of peace amongst the Anglo-Saxon peoples. Now your saying it's an Italian domino that gets things in motion.Whats wrong with Hungarian dominoes.? | |||
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"Italy will start the domino effect the EU will collapse in the next few years and all you remainers will be saying thank god we are out,you will see I thought brexit was the start of the domino effect that would destroy the EU and bring about a 1000 year Reich of peace amongst the Anglo-Saxon peoples. Now your saying it's an Italian domino that gets things in motion.Whats wrong with Hungarian dominoes.?" The reason you want to stay in that you do not understand English as written never mind we do have a poor education susem these days lol | |||
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"Italy will start the domino effect the EU will collapse in the next few years and all you remainers will be saying thank god we are out,you will see I thought brexit was the start of the domino effect that would destroy the EU and bring about a 1000 year Reich of peace amongst the Anglo-Saxon peoples. Now your saying it's an Italian domino that gets things in motion.Whats wrong with Hungarian dominoes.?The reason you want to stay in that you do not understand English as written never mind we do have a poor education susem these days lol" Like to add that I never ever said that we started any domino effect but have allways said the EU would collapse in the next 5 years and I stick by that | |||
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" "The markets will teach the Italians to vote for the right thing". EU Commissioner Gunther Oettinger" in theory the EU commissioner is right... you might not like the way he said it but he'd be correct! because the italians are going to need to sell government bonds to basically finance the country... and if their credit rating is shot, and their bond rating is 1 level off being "junk" then either no one will buy because they think they will never be paid back (which would be a fair assumption if the italians walk away from their eurozone debts) or the bond return rate they will have promise the markets to invest will be so high, it will cripple them down the road.... | |||
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"Italy will start the domino effect the EU will collapse in the next few years and all you remainers will be saying thank god we are out,you will see" oooh hot take!!!!! one problem... you know they are just talking about the Eurozone and not the entire EU don't you.... the UK are not part of the eurozone! | |||
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"In out in out ...italy will use the elections as a vote against German rule ....sounds familiar from the past" Even Europhile billionaire George Soros has publicly admitted now the EU and the Eurozone are facing an existential threat. He says that the EU needs to take drastic action to address migration concerns and problems with the Euro currency, what drastic action he thinks should be taken remains to be seen though? The tide of Eurosceptic Populism is turning against the EU and the Eurozone and I think we could soon reach a tipping point. The tipping point would be a point of no return where the EU and the Euro will disintegrate. The warning signs have been there for many years, the Greek debt crisis, the migration crisis and Brexit, but fanatical EU/Euro zealots in Brussels have carried on regardless. Italy could finally be the tipping point, let's see how the muppets in Brussels deal with it in the coming months. | |||
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"In out in out ...italy will use the elections as a vote against German rule ....sounds familiar from the past Even Europhile billionaire George Soros has publicly admitted now the EU and the Eurozone are facing an existential threat. He says that the EU needs to take drastic action to address migration concerns and problems with the Euro currency, what drastic action he thinks should be taken remains to be seen though? The tide of Eurosceptic Populism is turning against the EU and the Eurozone and I think we could soon reach a tipping point. The tipping point would be a point of no return where the EU and the Euro will disintegrate. The warning signs have been there for many years, the Greek debt crisis, the migration crisis and Brexit, but fanatical EU/Euro zealots in Brussels have carried on regardless. Italy could finally be the tipping point, let's see how the muppets in Brussels deal with it in the coming months. " More balderdash comments from the herring sorry kipper | |||
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"Just as I thought, new PM suggested was agreed by the President, which validates my point that politicians are all about power and themselves (as opposed to country) because neither of the 2 parties wanted to go back to the polls in case they lost altogether, hence why they negotiated *again* with each other to come up with new PM suggestion "It's the same Prime minister that was suggested before. The only change is the finance minister. | |||
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"Just as I thought, new PM suggested was agreed by the President, which validates my point that politicians are all about power and themselves (as opposed to country) because neither of the 2 parties wanted to go back to the polls in case they lost altogether, hence why they negotiated *again* with each other to come up with new PM suggestion
It's the same Prime minister that was suggested before. The only change is the finance minister. "Replace "PM" with "FM" in my post. The point remains. | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly?" Your getting far too technical now - it will be Macro Economics next! | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? Your getting far too technical now - it will be Macro Economics next!" Most people on here think Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes are the 2 founding fathers of Milton Keynes! | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly?" The new coalition government in Italy is between the populist 5 star party (who actually have many left leaning policies) and the right wing League party. Silvio Berlusconi is allied to the Forza party who are not part of the coalition and won't be part of the new government. That being said why are you trying to associate Berlusconi with the 5 star party (who are anti establishment and Berlusconi is very much an establishment figure) and the League? | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history?" . Fair competition... Or the usual bullshit globalisation one?. | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly?" I don't believe that they directly want to leave the euro. Its more of a case of implementing massive spending plans that, because of their indebtedness and the rules of euro membership, they won't be allowed to do. This will be a test for the ECB and Brussels. | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history?" I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU." Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? The new coalition government in Italy is between the populist 5 star party (who actually have many left leaning policies) and the right wing League party. Silvio Berlusconi is allied to the Forza party who are not part of the coalition and won't be part of the new government. That being said why are you trying to associate Berlusconi with the 5 star party (who are anti establishment and Berlusconi is very much an establishment figure) and the League? " I am not going to be too critical of your incorrect pronouncements this time because if you do not have much knowledge of Italian politics my reference to the right wing coalition could easily be misunderstood. The League, Forza and other right right wing groups campaigned together. The League promptly dumped their allies when the prospect of power was available just as they dumped their previous position of blaming the poor South for all of Italy's problems to blaming immigrants. I did not mention 5 star. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-23/berlusconi-says-league-plotting-government-with-five-starquote] I have have to admit that I didn't realised that the League had broken it's word. I had thought It was still working working with working with its working with its former chums. So, having failed to comprehend even the context of the first question how how about how about the next two? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? I'm also interested to know if the 5 star position on vaccination not being compulsory is good for Italy or the world in general? | |||
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" Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. " Maybe it's a good thing. Enraged confused idiots with a vote don't act in their own best interests. | |||
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" Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. Maybe it's a good thing. Enraged confused idiots with a vote don't act in their own best interests. " I object to characterising them as idiots. Desperation will lead perfectly rational people to do this. The point that is lost is that the EU is a convenient scapegoat to conceal the fact that populations have been screwed by their own venal and incompetent governments. | |||
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" Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. Maybe it's a good thing. Enraged confused idiots with a vote don't act in their own best interests. I object to characterising them as idiots. Desperation will lead perfectly rational people to do this. The point that is lost is that the EU is a convenient scapegoat to conceal the fact that populations have been screwed by their own venal and incompetent governments." this is why i do wonder about brexiteers in that who will they blame when we leave the EU, or will they still blame the EU because they didn't get everything they want...... | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? The new coalition government in Italy is between the populist 5 star party (who actually have many left leaning policies) and the right wing League party. Silvio Berlusconi is allied to the Forza party who are not part of the coalition and won't be part of the new government. That being said why are you trying to associate Berlusconi with the 5 star party (who are anti establishment and Berlusconi is very much an establishment figure) and the League? I am not going to be too critical of your incorrect pronouncements this time because if you do not have much knowledge of Italian politics my reference to the right wing coalition could easily be misunderstood. The League, Forza and other right right wing groups campaigned together. The League promptly dumped their allies when the prospect of power was available just as they dumped their previous position of blaming the poor South for all of Italy's problems to blaming immigrants. I did not mention 5 star. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-23/berlusconi-says-league-plotting-government-with-five-starquote] I have have to admit that I didn't realised that the League had broken it's word. I had thought It was still working working with working with its working with its former chums. So, having failed to comprehend even the context of the first question how how about how about the next two? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? I'm also interested to know if the 5 star position on vaccination not being compulsory is good for Italy or the world in general?" Incorrect pronouncements? What was incorrect about what I said? You basically just admitted (in your own usual long winded way) that Berlusconi is not part of the League party and is not part of 5 Star. Berlusconi is not part of the coalition and won't be part of the government. Berlusconi belongs to a completely separate party which is the Forza party, but you were clearly trying to associate Berlusconi with the new coalition government when you suggested he backed them. It won't wash here. It doesn't matter who campaigned with who, the result of the election has dictated who has formed the government. 5 star got the highest share of the vote and The League the 2nd highest so that determined who formed a coalition. 5 star wouldn't work with Berlusconi because he is an old establishment figure and 5 star are an anti establishment party. Anyway Berlusconi's Forza party just didn't get enough support. In the German elections the 2nd placed social party lead by former EU commissioner Martin Shultz said during the campaign they wouldn't form a coalition with Angela Merkel, then after the election they did form a coalition with Angela Merkel's party. Have you been as critical of the coalition in Germany as you now seem to be of this coalition in Italy, or don't you think criticism of pro-EU coalitions like the one in Germany is allowed? Is Martin Shultz social party breaking it's word acceptable to you as soon as the prospect of power was there, but you don't like it in Italy because it's the right wing anti Euro/EU league party? | |||
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"So just a few questions: How honest is the right wing side of the coalition about changing the system when they are backed by Silvio "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? The new coalition government in Italy is between the populist 5 star party (who actually have many left leaning policies) and the right wing League party. Silvio Berlusconi is allied to the Forza party who are not part of the coalition and won't be part of the new government. That being said why are you trying to associate Berlusconi with the 5 star party (who are anti establishment and Berlusconi is very much an establishment figure) and the League? I am not going to be too critical of your incorrect pronouncements this time because if you do not have much knowledge of Italian politics my reference to the right wing coalition could easily be misunderstood. The League, Forza and other right right wing groups campaigned together. The League promptly dumped their allies when the prospect of power was available just as they dumped their previous position of blaming the poor South for all of Italy's problems to blaming immigrants. I did not mention 5 star. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-23/berlusconi-says-league-plotting-government-with-five-starquote] I have have to admit that I didn't realised that the League had broken it's word. I had thought It was still working working with working with its working with its former chums. So, having failed to comprehend even the context of the first question how how about how about the next two? How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? I'm also interested to know if the 5 star position on vaccination not being compulsory is good for Italy or the world in general? Incorrect pronouncements? What was incorrect about what I said? You basically just admitted (in your own usual long winded way) that Berlusconi is not part of the League party and is not part of 5 Star. Berlusconi is not part of the coalition and won't be part of the government. Berlusconi belongs to a completely separate party which is the Forza party, but you were clearly trying to associate Berlusconi with the new coalition government when you suggested he backed them. It won't wash here. It doesn't matter who campaigned with who, the result of the election has dictated who has formed the government. 5 star got the highest share of the vote and The League the 2nd highest so that determined who formed a coalition. 5 star wouldn't work with Berlusconi because he is an old establishment figure and 5 star are an anti establishment party. Anyway Berlusconi's Forza party just didn't get enough support. In the German elections the 2nd placed social party lead by former EU commissioner Martin Shultz said during the campaign they wouldn't form a coalition with Angela Merkel, then after the election they did form a coalition with Angela Merkel's party. Have you been as critical of the coalition in Germany as you now seem to be of this coalition in Italy, or don't you think criticism of pro-EU coalitions like the one in Germany is allowed? Is Martin Shultz social party breaking it's word acceptable to you as soon as the prospect of power was there, but you don't like it in Italy because it's the right wing anti Euro/EU league party? " I will try again because I do want to make an effort. Forza and the League campaigned together and agreed to help each other in Parliament. Agreed? Berlusconi the leader of Forza is famously corrupt. Agreed? The right wing half of Italy's government is the League. Agreed? So, how serious is the League about ending corruption? Also the other two questions I asked were: How will the new government fund the reduction in taxes and increase in benefits that they have promised? What actually is their policy on leaving the Euro or the EU? Has it changed regularly? Any ideas? | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. " I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens. | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens. "Nothing is an easy fix its all a lot more complex than we realise. If we look at the migrant crisis where are they all coming from? Middle East war torn countries and Africa. The only way we are going to stop it is to invest and create wealth in those countries. Corruption being rife how do we do it so that the average guy gets a chance? | |||
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" Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. Maybe it's a good thing. Enraged confused idiots with a vote don't act in their own best interests. I object to characterising them as idiots. Desperation will lead perfectly rational people to do this. The point that is lost is that the EU is a convenient scapegoat to conceal the fact that populations have been screwed by their own venal and incompetent governments." Rationalising (with the input of media manipulation) a bad decision doesn't make it a good one. You can't call people who make bad decisions wise. | |||
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" Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. Maybe it's a good thing. Enraged confused idiots with a vote don't act in their own best interests. I object to characterising them as idiots. Desperation will lead perfectly rational people to do this. The point that is lost is that the EU is a convenient scapegoat to conceal the fact that populations have been screwed by their own venal and incompetent governments. Rationalising (with the input of media manipulation) a bad decision doesn't make it a good one. You can't call people who make bad decisions wise. " Is it wise to make the same decision twice if the first time it didn’t work for you? | |||
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" Don't anyone tell me again that the EU is democratic. This is a coup pure and simple. Maybe it's a good thing. Enraged confused idiots with a vote don't act in their own best interests. I object to characterising them as idiots. Desperation will lead perfectly rational people to do this. The point that is lost is that the EU is a convenient scapegoat to conceal the fact that populations have been screwed by their own venal and incompetent governments. Rationalising (with the input of media manipulation) a bad decision doesn't make it a good one. You can't call people who make bad decisions wise. Is it wise to make the same decision twice if the first time it didn’t work for you?" As with all decisions.....it depends | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens. "It's interesting that you think Greece's economy has stagnated, yet you support Brexit. You know that the UK was the fastest growing in both the G20 and the EU before the vote, right? And now we are the slowest, right? So the "stagnant" Greek economy, is growing faster than the UK. | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens.
It's interesting that you think Greece's economy has stagnated, yet you support Brexit. You know that the UK was the fastest growing in both the G20 and the EU before the vote, right? And now we are the slowest, right? So the "stagnant" Greek economy, is growing faster than the UK. "Nice try, and technically you are correct. But you have conveniently left a few bits out. You left out that the Greek economy shrunk by (I can't find the exact figure, but from memory) around 20% during the crisis. From that low base and with the "benefit" of being in the Euro you would have expected it, nearly a decade on, to be booming by now. You also left out that although, on the last quarter, Britain was equal lowest the difference was hardly shocking. Britain at 0.1% wasn't exactly trailing in the wake of France 0.2, Germany 0.3, and the EU average 0.4, and when it comes to employment we are head and shoulders above the EU. Even Spain which like Greece is coming back from a low base could only manage 0.7 Listening to the doom mongers of remain you would have expected, 2 years on, Britain to be in recession and the rest of the EU charging ahead. It's not, and they are not. | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens.
It's interesting that you think Greece's economy has stagnated, yet you support Brexit. You know that the UK was the fastest growing in both the G20 and the EU before the vote, right? And now we are the slowest, right? So the "stagnant" Greek economy, is growing faster than the UK.
Nice try, and technically you are correct. But you have conveniently left a few bits out.
You left out that the Greek economy shrunk by (I can't find the exact figure, but from memory) around 20% during the crisis. From that low base and with the "benefit" of being in the Euro you would have expected it, nearly a decade on, to be booming by now.
You also left out that although, on the last quarter, Britain was equal lowest the difference was hardly shocking. Britain at 0.1% wasn't exactly trailing in the wake of France 0.2, Germany 0.3, and the EU average 0.4, and when it comes to employment we are head and shoulders above the EU. Even Spain which like Greece is coming back from a low base could only manage 0.7
Listening to the doom mongers of remain you would have expected, 2 years on, Britain to be in recession and the rest of the EU charging ahead.
It's not, and they are not. "But you don't explain why it's not. Try and explain a zero hour contract to a Frenchman, they look at you amazed! Why would anyone take a job like that? Britain is obsessed with all things cheap and labour on tap to suit at low wages may be a job - just like a Trabant is a car but who would buy one? | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens.
It's interesting that you think Greece's economy has stagnated, yet you support Brexit. You know that the UK was the fastest growing in both the G20 and the EU before the vote, right? And now we are the slowest, right? So the "stagnant" Greek economy, is growing faster than the UK.
Nice try, and technically you are correct. But you have conveniently left a few bits out.
You left out that the Greek economy shrunk by (I can't find the exact figure, but from memory) around 20% during the crisis. From that low base and with the "benefit" of being in the Euro you would have expected it, nearly a decade on, to be booming by now.
You also left out that although, on the last quarter, Britain was equal lowest the difference was hardly shocking. Britain at 0.1% wasn't exactly trailing in the wake of France 0.2, Germany 0.3, and the EU average 0.4, and when it comes to employment we are head and shoulders above the EU. Even Spain which like Greece is coming back from a low base could only manage 0.7
Listening to the doom mongers of remain you would have expected, 2 years on, Britain to be in recession and the rest of the EU charging ahead.
It's not, and they are not.
But you don't explain why it's not.
Try and explain a zero hour contract to a Frenchman, they look at you amazed! Why would anyone take a job like that?
Britain is obsessed with all things cheap and labour on tap to suit at low wages may be a job - just like a Trabant is a car but who would buy one?". I disagree with zero hours contracts but there are plenty of French people in the UK who have them. Maybe you should ask them why they took a job like that? | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens.
It's interesting that you think Greece's economy has stagnated, yet you support Brexit. You know that the UK was the fastest growing in both the G20 and the EU before the vote, right? And now we are the slowest, right? So the "stagnant" Greek economy, is growing faster than the UK.
Nice try, and technically you are correct. But you have conveniently left a few bits out.
You left out that the Greek economy shrunk by (I can't find the exact figure, but from memory) around 20% during the crisis. From that low base and with the "benefit" of being in the Euro you would have expected it, nearly a decade on, to be booming by now.
You also left out that although, on the last quarter, Britain was equal lowest the difference was hardly shocking. Britain at 0.1% wasn't exactly trailing in the wake of France 0.2, Germany 0.3, and the EU average 0.4, and when it comes to employment we are head and shoulders above the EU. Even Spain which like Greece is coming back from a low base could only manage 0.7
Listening to the doom mongers of remain you would have expected, 2 years on, Britain to be in recession and the rest of the EU charging ahead.
It's not, and they are not.
But you don't explain why it's not.
Try and explain a zero hour contract to a Frenchman, they look at you amazed! Why would anyone take a job like that?
Britain is obsessed with all things cheap and labour on tap to suit at low wages may be a job - just like a Trabant is a car but who would buy one?. I disagree with zero hours contracts but there are plenty of French people in the UK who have them. Maybe you should ask them why they took a job like that?"Not arguing your point, but unemployment figures alone do not reflect a true picture. What we want is good jobs, skilled jobs, well paid jobs and we should concentrate on manufacturing jobs. Germany has always been a manufacturing economy whereas we are a nation of "shopkeepers ". Maybe brexit will see a change in manufacturing? | |||
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"P.s. serious question, why are so many people leaving France?" are they? | |||
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"P.s. serious question, why are so many people leaving France? are they? " They do seem to be. I remember reading a while ago that by population the 6th largest "French" city was London. | |||
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"P.s. serious question, why are so many people leaving France? are they? They do seem to be. I remember reading a while ago that by population the 6th largest "French" city was London." Ah I mis understood - I thought it was lots of people are leaving France per say, hence my answer "are they"? Whilst I live and work in France I don't know - but I have now checked and the population in France is increasing and has increased every year for the last 5 years. So had there been a mass migration you would have thought it would have "dipped"? As far as London is concerned yes your quite right but there will be quite a few bankers in that - they may well be coming home? Another factor - France has one of the highest taxes in the World once everything has been taken into account - so high end earners will migrate to lower regimes! | |||
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"Why are so many people against countries working together, and for them competing or even worse against each other? Are they poor students of history? I don't think anyone is against countries working together. However it is a big jump from working together to full political union, which is, and has been from the beginning, the ultimate goal of the EU. Look at people on here, crying out for the Italian economy to blow itself apart, look at them leaping for joy when our closest allies are putting tariffs on each other. They want conflict. I actually think Trump is wrong on the tariffs. However something needed to be done against the Chinese who have been dumping cheap steel on the west for years. So for now I will (just) give him the benefit of the doubt until I see how it pans out in the next few weeks/months. The carrot and stick approach seems to be working with N Korea, so let's see. I don't think anyone on here really wants to see the Italian economy blow itself apart (I certainly don't) But again there is a serious problem in Italy that needs fixing and more Europe, more austerity, more unemployment, and yes (like it or not) more migrants, will not fix it, especially with no end in sight. They only have to cast their eyes over the water to Greece which, nearly a decade on, still has a pretty much stagnant economy (I suppose stagnant is a bit of a result compared to when it did blow apart) and unemployment is still running at around 20% They could also cast their eyes north to Iceland (to be fair a much smaller country and economy) which was bankrupt a decade ago yet without the constraints of Brussels and the Euro is doing quite nicely today. Of course there would be turmoil for a while should Italy drop out of the single currency but say five years on would they be any worse off than if they had stayed in. If in doubt take a straw poll on the streets of Athens.
It's interesting that you think Greece's economy has stagnated, yet you support Brexit. You know that the UK was the fastest growing in both the G20 and the EU before the vote, right? And now we are the slowest, right? So the "stagnant" Greek economy, is growing faster than the UK.
Nice try, and technically you are correct. But you have conveniently left a few bits out.
You left out that the Greek economy shrunk by (I can't find the exact figure, but from memory) around 20% during the crisis. From that low base and with the "benefit" of being in the Euro you would have expected it, nearly a decade on, to be booming by now.
You also left out that although, on the last quarter, Britain was equal lowest the difference was hardly shocking. Britain at 0.1% wasn't exactly trailing in the wake of France 0.2, Germany 0.3, and the EU average 0.4, and when it comes to employment we are head and shoulders above the EU. Even Spain which like Greece is coming back from a low base could only manage 0.7
Listening to the doom mongers of remain you would have expected, 2 years on, Britain to be in recession and the rest of the EU charging ahead.
It's not, and they are not.
But you don't explain why it's not.
Try and explain a zero hour contract to a Frenchman, they look at you amazed! Why would anyone take a job like that?
Britain is obsessed with all things cheap and labour on tap to suit at low wages may be a job - just like a Trabant is a car but who would buy one?. I disagree with zero hours contracts but there are plenty of French people in the UK who have them. Maybe you should ask them why they took a job like that?"Because they're here for a few years improving their English and being young and not trying to raise a family? Perhaps those are the only jobs available for them in our land of opportunity? | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. " Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? " . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence?" If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. " No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of?" So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. " Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy  | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy "So the UK has a say in single currency policy?  | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? ". Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks "No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy. | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy. "The EU. Full stop. Dear | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear "Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear
Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. ". I thought you had to be 18 to join this site? The EU introduced the Euro and somehow convinced the southern countries to join so that the richer northern countries could devalue their currencies and increase exports. As someone above said this led to competition between member states and the south couldn’t compete. When the crash came the policy of the EU/ECB was to call in the debts of the south and enforce austerity which has led to high unemployment and has solved nothing. The EU policy should have been to invest in education, r&d and manufacturing in its southern member states to create more of a level playing field but obviously some in the EU don’t want that | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks " When asked our opinion on the Euro we rightly said 'No Thanks!' to the EU. Incidentally it was people like Nick Clegg, Peter Mandelson, Neil Kinnock and Alistair Campbell who wanted the UK to join the Euro and said the UK would be left behind as a basket case economy if we didn't join. Thank fuck we never listened to the likes of them as not joining the Euro has been one of the best decisions the UK ever made. It's also these same Europhile loonies like Clegg, Mandelson, Kinnock, and Campbell who are now shouting loudest for the UK to stay in the EU, and they say the UK will be a basket case if we leave, based on track record does anyone believe them?
We didn't join the Euro but as member's of the EU we're still expected to bail out countries when the Euro goes tits up like it did in Greece. Time for the UK to get out of the EU now before the Euro goes tits up again, maybe in Italy this time.
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear
Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. . I thought you had to be 18 to join this site? The EU introduced the Euro and somehow convinced the southern countries to join so that the richer northern countries could devalue their currencies and increase exports. As someone above said this led to competition between member states and the south couldn’t compete. When the crash came the policy of the EU/ECB was to call in the debts of the south and enforce austerity which has led to high unemployment and has solved nothing. The EU policy should have been to invest in education, r&d and manufacturing in its southern member states to create more of a level playing field but obviously some in the EU don’t want that "But across the border in Bosnia the youth unemployment level is just below 40%. Is that the fault of the EU? No, because they are not members. In the UK, we have low unemployment, are you going to praise the EU for that situation? Or maybe, just maybe, you are daft enough to believe that everything good that happens in a country is because of the wise and wonderful national government, and everything bad that happens is the fault of the big bad Boogeyman from Brussels? | |||
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"Italian austerity along with high immigration levels is combining for a disastrous recipe. Single currency and monetary policy is designed so that states compete with one another, that means some states will fair worse than others, you only need to look to America to see this in action, it certainly isn't going and never was going to give you economic equity, unless the EU radically change the amount the wealthier countries pay in at (think trebling) it was always going to end in a fuck up" Can't say that Remainers weren't warned, as the former governor of The Bank of England Mervyn King said during the EU referendum campaign that the Euro and the Eurozone is doomed to failure. | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear
Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. . I thought you had to be 18 to join this site? The EU introduced the Euro and somehow convinced the southern countries to join so that the richer northern countries could devalue their currencies and increase exports. As someone above said this led to competition between member states and the south couldn’t compete. When the crash came the policy of the EU/ECB was to call in the debts of the south and enforce austerity which has led to high unemployment and has solved nothing. The EU policy should have been to invest in education, r&d and manufacturing in its southern member states to create more of a level playing field but obviously some in the EU don’t want that
But across the border in Bosnia the youth unemployment level is just below 40%. Is that the fault of the EU? No, because they are not members. In the UK, we have low unemployment, are you going to praise the EU for that situation? Or maybe, just maybe, you are daft enough to believe that everything good that happens in a country is because of the wise and wonderful national government, and everything bad that happens is the fault of the big bad Boogeyman from Brussels? "LOL, The UK has rejected the EU and employment in the UK has gone up around 600,000 since the vote to leave in 2016. Didn't your remain campaign say 500,000 jobs would be lost if the country voted to leave? | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear
Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. . I thought you had to be 18 to join this site? The EU introduced the Euro and somehow convinced the southern countries to join so that the richer northern countries could devalue their currencies and increase exports. As someone above said this led to competition between member states and the south couldn’t compete. When the crash came the policy of the EU/ECB was to call in the debts of the south and enforce austerity which has led to high unemployment and has solved nothing. The EU policy should have been to invest in education, r&d and manufacturing in its southern member states to create more of a level playing field but obviously some in the EU don’t want that
But across the border in Bosnia the youth unemployment level is just below 40%. Is that the fault of the EU? No, because they are not members. In the UK, we have low unemployment, are you going to praise the EU for that situation? Or maybe, just maybe, you are daft enough to believe that everything good that happens in a country is because of the wise and wonderful national government, and everything bad that happens is the fault of the big bad Boogeyman from Brussels? "You scoured the internet amd all you could come up with was Bosnia?
I know that national governments are often to blame for things that go wrong but we are talking about the policies of the EU that created the mess in Southern Europe and the lack of policy to help them get out of it. What do you think? Are they right to carry on with austerity measures or should they do something to help? After all, they are all supposed to be working together aren’t they? The Euro obviously hasn’t worked for some so now what do they do? Nothing? Let the people suffer? | |||
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"Just saw on the front page of The Times tomorrow on sky news press preview that Italy is splitting with EU opinion about sanctions on Russia. Italy wants the EU sanctions on Russia lifted. Yet another headache for Juncker and Co to deal with. I hope Junckers aspirin cupboard is well stocked. "1 out of 28 is not bad odds. I think his aspirin stash is safe  | |||
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" We didn't join the Euro but as member's of the EU we're still expected to bail out countries when the Euro goes tits up like it did in Greece. Time for the UK to get out of the EU now before the Euro goes tits up again, maybe in Italy this time. " Oh yet more "lies" or "misinformation" by Centy yet again trying to rewrite history to suit his personal "unfounded" hatred of the EU. 1:We never "EVER" sent any money to bail out Greece with no protection from none repayment. 2:All bailout money came from either the IMF which we contribute to & the EU. The IMF always get their money back "so as a result so do we" & money taken from the EU funds which we contribute to left the UK with no exposure to none repayment. So yes we were part of the bailout but with no risk to any form of loss. So I don't get what point you are trying to make. | |||
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"Just saw on the front page of The Times tomorrow on sky news press preview that Italy is splitting with EU opinion about sanctions on Russia. Italy wants the EU sanctions on Russia lifted. Yet another headache for Juncker and Co to deal with. I hope Junckers aspirin cupboard is well stocked. "In addition, have you watched Faisal Islam's report, straight after the Press Preview, regarding the warnings issued by the Dutch Government (and later by the EU) to their businesses to start avoiding buying British components and look for alternatives within other EU countries, in order to minimise problems with their manufacturing later and the panic that that sent to *our* companies here (ranging from small, family ones to very big ones) as for quite a few of them that's their largest market. Cross manufacturing, for anything from small components like safety valves to larger components like car parts, will suffer massively to put it mildy. But I'm sure all these companies will be able to happily sit and twiddle their thumbs for a few years until we get deals with cheaper Chinese alternatives instead. Or they'll just close down. Prosperity at its best! | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear
Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. . I thought you had to be 18 to join this site? The EU introduced the Euro and somehow convinced the southern countries to join so that the richer northern countries could devalue their currencies and increase exports. As someone above said this led to competition between member states and the south couldn’t compete. When the crash came the policy of the EU/ECB was to call in the debts of the south and enforce austerity which has led to high unemployment and has solved nothing. The EU policy should have been to invest in education, r&d and manufacturing in its southern member states to create more of a level playing field but obviously some in the EU don’t want that
But across the border in Bosnia the youth unemployment level is just below 40%. Is that the fault of the EU? No, because they are not members. In the UK, we have low unemployment, are you going to praise the EU for that situation? Or maybe, just maybe, you are daft enough to believe that everything good that happens in a country is because of the wise and wonderful national government, and everything bad that happens is the fault of the big bad Boogeyman from Brussels?
You scoured the internet amd all you could come up with was Bosnia?
I know that national governments are often to blame for things that go wrong but we are talking about the policies of the EU that created the mess in Southern Europe and the lack of policy to help them get out of it. What do you think? Are they right to carry on with austerity measures or should they do something to help? After all, they are all supposed to be working together aren’t they? The Euro obviously hasn’t worked for some so now what do they do? Nothing? Let the people suffer?"I picked Bosnia due to its geographical location and the fact that it's not in the EU. You are blaming unemployment in Greece and Italy on being in the EU, but you have Bosnia and Herzegovina in between those 2 which isn't in the EU, with an even worse problem. | |||
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"Hopefully yes . You have to feel for the Italian youth the last time I looked unemployment stood at 40% . Immigration again is rife . The EU have done a fantastic job is making a wonderful country catastrophic. Is the unemployment rate the result of EU, or national policies? If it was EU policies we would see similar rates across every member state, wouldn't we? . EU policies. We see similar rates right across the Southern Eurozone nations. Is that a coincidence? If it was EU policies, then you would see it in all EU countries, but we don't. We also see the same pattern in non-EU countries, so that shows that it's not a result of EU policies, but of national policies. No you wouldn’t. The Euro favours more industrialised exporting nations as found in the north but I am sure you know this, it’s basic knowledge. And which non-Eu countries are you thinking of? So which are we talking about? Before we were talking about the EU, now you seem to have switched to talking about the Euro, the two are not synonymous. Can you not read? I said Southern Eurozone countries. I haven’t switched anything. And I’ll let you into a secret, the Euro/single currency, is an EU policy
So the UK has a say in single currency policy? . Yes. Which was/is thanks but no thanks
No dear, that's opting out. Look, I'll break it down for you. Problems with unemployment in Italy is either a national problem, as you can see from recent events the Italian form of democracy is less than ideal, or the argument was that it was the fault of the EU. Now the EU is a group of 28 member states, you however seem to have got confused with the countries which use the Euro. So please be specific about which organisations and which policies you feel are the cause of unemployment in Italy.
The EU. Full stop. Dear
Right, well if it was the fault of the EU as a whole, then there would be high unemployment across the whole of the EU. There isn't, so that proves it's not the fault of the EU. . I thought you had to be 18 to join this site? The EU introduced the Euro and somehow convinced the southern countries to join so that the richer northern countries could devalue their currencies and increase exports. As someone above said this led to competition between member states and the south couldn’t compete. When the crash came the policy of the EU/ECB was to call in the debts of the south and enforce austerity which has led to high unemployment and has solved nothing. The EU policy should have been to invest in education, r&d and manufacturing in its southern member states to create more of a level playing field but obviously some in the EU don’t want that "I think that you have this a little wrong. The Euro was launched at a time of economic plenty. Most of the Southern states did not meet the criteria but lobbied hard to join the Euro. The EU in foolish over-exuberance agreed on the promise that national governments would modify their economic policies as appropriate. National governments have failed to do this. The EU does not favour industrial nations as by far the biggestpart of the budget Iis for agricultural subsidies. Poorer countries and regions benefit from EU funding. The EU does not initiate investment. It contributes to projects set up and initiated national governments. If national governments choose to build airports in the middle of nowhere rather than invest in universities or schools then that was their choice. The EU has certainly done many things poorly but national governments and their populations have made equally poor decisions. We already have our country as does Italy and have been doing great work in making our wonderful countries catastrophic. It is our own fault. Stop looking to blame others and a magical panacea to fix it all. | |||
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"Just saw on the front page of The Times tomorrow on sky news press preview that Italy is splitting with EU opinion about sanctions on Russia. Italy wants the EU sanctions on Russia lifted. Yet another headache for Juncker and Co to deal with. I hope Junckers aspirin cupboard is well stocked.
In addition, have you watched Faisal Islam's report, straight after the Press Preview, regarding the warnings issued by the Dutch Government (and later by the EU) to their businesses to start avoiding buying British components and look for alternatives within other EU countries, in order to minimise problems with their manufacturing later and the panic that that sent to *our* companies here (ranging from small, family ones to very big ones) as for quite a few of them that's their largest market. Cross manufacturing, for anything from small components like safety valves to larger components like car parts, will suffer massively to put it mildy.
But I'm sure all these companies will be able to happily sit and twiddle their thumbs for a few years until we get deals with cheaper Chinese alternatives instead. Or they'll just close down. Prosperity at its best! "No, I think that you will find that this is both defeatist and unpatriotic making you an elitist liberal snowflake divorced from reality and not understanding how normal people live. It is not a pragmatic viewon how most companies will make rational decisions about the future. Silly you | |||
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"Just saw on the front page of The Times tomorrow on sky a news press preview that Italy is splitting with EU opinion about sanctions on Russia. Italy wants the EU sanctions on Russia lifted. Yet another headache for Juncker and Co to deal with. I hope Junckers aspirin cupboard is well stocked. "Is that objectively good? You like Putin because he is "strong" I believe. Our own national government believes that that Russia is a hostile power and supports these sanctions. How do you feel about our foreign policy being undermined? The press, judiciary and political system not that free. You vocally "defend" these things apparently. How does this make you feel? Is anything that undermines the EU a good thing? Would a terrorist attack inflaming nationalistic anger be good too? | |||
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? " ask the average Italian what they think of the EU . most have hated it for years .they don't need to look at us,.the wall is crumbling . | |||
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? ask the average Italian what they think of the EU . most have hated it for years .they don't need to look at us,.the wall is crumbling ." Did any parties run on a manifesto with pledge of a referendum on EU membership? | |||
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"I’m looking to book a holiday in Italy I don’t know if swining hotels are a thing. When I look online everything is in Italian just wondered if there was anyone who speaks Italian or could help me find somewhere?" It' s possible that we can help you... What do you need to know? I speak Italian | |||
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"I know little about Italian politics, but I don't really think anyone is looking at the UK and thinking "wow, Brexit is working out great, we should do that too!". Do you? ask the average Italian what they think of the EU . most have hated it for years .they don't need to look at us,.the wall is crumbling ." Having lived there for the years the average Italian is indifferent about the EU. They dislike the Euro because proces spiked when it was in issued and never came down. That was actually down to Italians being greedy but the result was nevertheless negative. They quite like the control of inflation though. Just saying. | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? " Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force?" I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be? | |||
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"Lads if you are going to bicker about austerity please include Ireland in your analysis. We were totally fucked in 2008, our centre right government paid off the debt and now we are prospering, relative to socialist governments like Greece who defaulted. If you are going to build a grand theory about the EU and the effects of austerity stop cherry picking the countries that suit your agenda and try to make it explain the rebirth of the Celtic tiger too. Individual governments, geography and culture are mostly to blame for the problems you are highlighting. " That would imply that national governments enjoyed a great deal of sovereignty and had full control over their national destinies. That's not possible because everything is the fault of the EU
Of course, the responses in the Cognitive bias thread make it clear that leavers have thoroughly considered both sides of the argument | |||
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"Lads if you are going to bicker about austerity please include Ireland in your analysis. We were totally fucked in 2008, our centre right government paid off the debt and now we are prospering, relative to socialist governments like Greece who defaulted. If you are going to build a grand theory about the EU and the effects of austerity stop cherry picking the countries that suit your agenda and try to make it explain the rebirth of the Celtic tiger too. Individual governments, geography and culture are mostly to blame for the problems you are highlighting. " Celtic Tiger? Don’t make me laugh. Do you want to explain the property bubble and how long it will be before the crash? | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be?" That terminology was not a good thing but it came from one guy. If it further destabilises the EU then that is a good thing. Maybe they will then start to listen to the people who have been taken for granted for years | |||
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"Lads if you are going to bicker about austerity please include Ireland in your analysis. We were totally fucked in 2008, our centre right government paid off the debt and now we are prospering, relative to socialist governments like Greece who defaulted. If you are going to build a grand theory about the EU and the effects of austerity stop cherry picking the countries that suit your agenda and try to make it explain the rebirth of the Celtic tiger too. Individual governments, geography and culture are mostly to blame for the problems you are highlighting. Celtic Tiger? Don’t make me laugh. Do you want to explain the property bubble and how long it will be before the crash?" You know he didn't coin the phrase, right? | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be? That terminology was not a good thing but it came from one guy. If it further destabilises the EU then that is a good thing. Maybe they will then start to listen to the people who have been taken for granted for years " It was said by one guy but it is, and has always been, the League's attitude. In fact, it was only recently that they stopped blaming Southern Italians for the problems and started blaming the EU. They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. At least you are making it clear that any behaviour is justified if it destabilises the EU. Centaur v1 has never had the courage to spell that out. | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be? That terminology was not a good thing but it came from one guy. If it further destabilises the EU then that is a good thing. Maybe they will then start to listen to the people who have been taken for granted for years It was said by one guy but it is, and has always been, the League's attitude. In fact, it was only recently that they stopped blaming Southern Italians for the problems and started blaming the EU. They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. At least you are making it clear that any behaviour is justified if it destabilises the EU. Centaur v1 has never had the courage to spell that out." You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be? That terminology was not a good thing but it came from one guy. If it further destabilises the EU then that is a good thing. Maybe they will then start to listen to the people who have been taken for granted for years It was said by one guy but it is, and has always been, the League's attitude. In fact, it was only recently that they stopped blaming Southern Italians for the problems and started blaming the EU. They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. At least you are making it clear that any behaviour is justified if it destabilises the EU. Centaur v1 has never had the courage to spell that out. You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself " That is absolutely the most hysterical, melodramatic comment I've seen in some time
You are forgiving the victimisation of a minority in order to get what you want.
I agree that the EU is not set up to deal with crises. I've stated that before. However, the migrant crisis from outside the EU is driving the problem on the mainland, not internal immigration. That would still have happened with each country on their own to deal with it. How would it have been better? | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself " What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be? That terminology was not a good thing but it came from one guy. If it further destabilises the EU then that is a good thing. Maybe they will then start to listen to the people who have been taken for granted for years It was said by one guy but it is, and has always been, the League's attitude. In fact, it was only recently that they stopped blaming Southern Italians for the problems and started blaming the EU. They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. At least you are making it clear that any behaviour is justified if it destabilises the EU. Centaur v1 has never had the courage to spell that out. You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself That is absolutely the most hysterical, melodramatic comment I've seen in some time
You are forgiving the victimisation of a minority in order to get what you want.
I agree that the EU is not set up to deal with crises. I've stated that before. However, the migrant crisis from outside the EU is driving the problem on the mainland, not internal immigration. That would still have happened with each country on their own to deal with it. How would it have been better?"You are forgiving the victimisation and impoverishment of millions of EU citizens and can’t seem to or want to understand that the persecution of internal migrants is directly attributable to the policies of the EU, whether they be fiscal or relating to outside immigration. I don’t know why people keep making excuses for the EU. Fortunately it now seems that the majority are seeing the light | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality." So why is it doomed? | |||
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" So why is it doomed?" A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". | |||
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" So why is it doomed? A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". " Bonjour . . That’s ‘hello’ I don’t, I just enjoy politics and am joining in the debate | |||
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" So why is it doomed? A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". " Exactly. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality." You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority? | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?" wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. " Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?" Treaty change does require unanimous support from the heads of government. If I'm wrong, please point me towards an authoritative source which proves otherwise. | |||
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" So why is it doomed? A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". Bonjour . . That’s ‘hello’ I don’t, I just enjoy politics and am joining in the debate " If you don't believe that the EU is doomed then why would you beg the question as to why is the EU doomed? | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit." A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority? Treaty change does require unanimous support from the heads of government. If I'm wrong, please point me towards an authoritative source which proves otherwise. " You are entirely right. Furthermore, the method by which each member state ratifies the treaty is up to the individual member state. Most countries are sensible, and do it via their elected Parliament. Owing to a constitutional quirk and a broad high court ruling, Ireland must endure plebiscites. | |||
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"Proposed census specifically on Roma (gypsies) so that they can deport illegal immigrants. As a general policy that's fine, but why so specific? Why is also "unfortunate" according to Italy's interior minister that Italian born Roma would stay? I don't think that frustration with unemployment and corruption and inequality makes this OK. If it is not OK, then why is this government OK? Because the people elected them? Would you like to see them removed? By force? I'm not querying their legitimacy. Why make that implication? Many people on this thread feel that the election of thus government is a very good thing. However, for the record, Hitler was elected in a democratic vote. I'm not drawing a direct parallel, just underlining the fact that democracy does mot automatically provide a positive outcome. I am asking if you feel that this terminology and attitude is a good thing in absolute terms. You can cop out by claiming it's down to the Italians but that would be a very weak answer. If it further destabilises the EU does that make this attitude acceptable when otherwise it wouldn't be? That terminology was not a good thing but it came from one guy. If it further destabilises the EU then that is a good thing. Maybe they will then start to listen to the people who have been taken for granted for years It was said by one guy but it is, and has always been, the League's attitude. In fact, it was only recently that they stopped blaming Southern Italians for the problems and started blaming the EU. They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. At least you are making it clear that any behaviour is justified if it destabilises the EU. Centaur v1 has never had the courage to spell that out. You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself That is absolutely the most hysterical, melodramatic comment I've seen in some time
You are forgiving the victimisation of a minority in order to get what you want.
I agree that the EU is not set up to deal with crises. I've stated that before. However, the migrant crisis from outside the EU is driving the problem on the mainland, not internal immigration. That would still have happened with each country on their own to deal with it. How would it have been better?
You are forgiving the victimisation and impoverishment of millions of EU citizens and can’t seem to or want to understand that the persecution of internal migrants is directly attributable to the policies of the EU, whether they be fiscal or relating to outside immigration. I don’t know why people keep making excuses for the EU. Fortunately it now seems that the majority are seeing the light "How have EU citizens been victimised and impoverished? Let's stay with Italy as that is the thread. Was the international financial crisis or the failures of national and local government of no consequence? Nobody was "waking up" to anything pre-recession. Are you saying that their is no history of victimising minorities in Italy? That the League specifically hasn't always had these attitudes? I am certainly not making excuses for the EU. It has got things wrong. It is also by no means the source of all problems or a conspiracy to impoverish and victimise its own people. That is a risible conspiracy theory. | |||
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" So why is it doomed? A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". Bonjour . . That’s ‘hello’ I don’t, I just enjoy politics and am joining in the debate If you don't believe that the EU is doomed then why would you beg the question as to why is the EU doomed? " I do believe it is doomed, I don’t want so badly to convince people it is doomed, it’s just an opinion. Au revoir . That’s ‘bye ‘ | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority? Treaty change does require unanimous support from the heads of government. If I'm wrong, please point me towards an authoritative source which proves otherwise. " I'm not disputing that. In another thread you were saying a minority voted for Brexit. Does this apply to the Irish referendum above? | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. " So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon? | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority? Treaty change does require unanimous support from the heads of government. If I'm wrong, please point me towards an authoritative source which proves otherwise. I'm not disputing that. In another thread you were saying a minority voted for Brexit. Does this apply to the Irish referendum above?" Right, so treaty change does indeed require unanimous support from the heads of government of all member States. I'm glad we got that all cleared up. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon?" Are you really so ignorant of the issue at hand regarding the treaty of Lisbon? How democracy was upheld? How the EU planned one course of action which required referendums be held in every member state, but that it was scrapped after the French rejected it? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Did it really confuse you when I asked why the UK hadn't held a referendum? We didn't, because there was no reason as the planned course of action was already dead in the water. Do you know what I'm talking about? | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon? Are you really so ignorant of the issue at hand regarding the treaty of Lisbon? How democracy was upheld? How the EU planned one course of action which required referendums be held in every member state, but that it was scrapped after the French rejected it? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Did it really confuse you when I asked why the UK hadn't held a referendum? We didn't, because there was no reason as the planned course of action was already dead in the water. Do you know what I'm talking about?" I'm not ignorant of the point at hand. You're conveniently ignoring the point I'm making about your claim in another thread (and now this one) that a minority voted Leave. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon? Are you really so ignorant of the issue at hand regarding the treaty of Lisbon? How democracy was upheld? How the EU planned one course of action which required referendums be held in every member state, but that it was scrapped after the French rejected it? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Did it really confuse you when I asked why the UK hadn't held a referendum? We didn't, because there was no reason as the planned course of action was already dead in the water. Do you know what I'm talking about? I'm not ignorant of the point at hand. You're conveniently ignoring the point I'm making about your claim in another thread (and now this one) that a minority voted Leave." Right, so you will know that the outcome of the Irish referendum was completely irrelevant because the thing they were voting on had already been killed off by the French referendum then | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon? Are you really so ignorant of the issue at hand regarding the treaty of Lisbon? How democracy was upheld? How the EU planned one course of action which required referendums be held in every member state, but that it was scrapped after the French rejected it? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Did it really confuse you when I asked why the UK hadn't held a referendum? We didn't, because there was no reason as the planned course of action was already dead in the water. Do you know what I'm talking about? I'm not ignorant of the point at hand. You're conveniently ignoring the point I'm making about your claim in another thread (and now this one) that a minority voted Leave." so this isn’t just a one v one thread ... where was This said ? | |||
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" So why is it doomed? A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". Bonjour . . That’s ‘hello’ I don’t, I just enjoy politics and am joining in the debate If you don't believe that the EU is doomed then why would you beg the question as to why is the EU doomed? I do believe it is doomed, I don’t want so badly to convince people it is doomed, it’s just an opinion. Au revoir . That’s ‘bye ‘" "It's just an opinion" is the catch cry of the coward when they're asked to account for their words. | |||
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" So why is it doomed? A more honest question might be "So why do I want so badly to convince people that it is doomed?". Bonjour . . That’s ‘hello’ I don’t, I just enjoy politics and am joining in the debate If you don't believe that the EU is doomed then why would you beg the question as to why is the EU doomed? I do believe it is doomed, I don’t want so badly to convince people it is doomed, it’s just an opinion. Au revoir . That’s ‘bye ‘ "It's just an opinion" is the catch cry of the coward when they're asked to account for their words." Centaur v1 and Centaur v2 (Ben) are remarkably similar in this regard. If they come back it will be to try and move to some other subject | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon? Are you really so ignorant of the issue at hand regarding the treaty of Lisbon? How democracy was upheld? How the EU planned one course of action which required referendums be held in every member state, but that it was scrapped after the French rejected it? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Did it really confuse you when I asked why the UK hadn't held a referendum? We didn't, because there was no reason as the planned course of action was already dead in the water. Do you know what I'm talking about? I'm not ignorant of the point at hand. You're conveniently ignoring the point I'm making about your claim in another thread (and now this one) that a minority voted Leave. Right, so you will know that the outcome of the Irish referendum was completely irrelevant because the thing they were voting on had already been killed off by the French referendum then "What are you on about? The Republic of Ireland was the only member state to hold a referendum to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. France ratified it on 14/02/2008. The Treaty of Lisbon was initially scheduled to be fully ratified by the end of 2008, thus entering into force on 1 January 2009. This plan failed however, primarily due to the initial rejection of the Treaty in 2008 by the Irish electorate in a referendum, a decision which was reversed in a second referendum on 2nd October 2009. | |||
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" You are an apologist for an organisation that has brought misery to millions. And the thing is, the EU needs no help in destabilisation, it is the cause of it and has brought all its problems upon itself What a load of Bullshit! The EU hasn't brought misery to millions, it has brought peace to a group of countries who had been at war with each other for centuries. It has enshrined human rights in countries that were military dictatorships within living memory. Laws are passed by a democratically elected parliament, and treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. This union has not been formed by military conquest, but by democracies working together and choosing to pool sovereignty for the greater benefits that it brings. To say this has brought misery to millions is total bollocks and not based in reality. You say any treaty change requires unanimous agreement of the government of each member state. Only 1.2m voted Yes out of a total population of 4.5m in the referendum on 2 October 2009 in Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. Was this a majority or minority?wasnt it a majority of voters ... same as most votes. Including brexit. Of course it was. But CLCC seems to think a minority voted for Brexit. A minority of the British public did, and a minority of the electorate did. That's why it's ridiculous to say that it's the "will of the people" when it's no such thing. So it wasn't the will of the people of Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon? Are you really so ignorant of the issue at hand regarding the treaty of Lisbon? How democracy was upheld? How the EU planned one course of action which required referendums be held in every member state, but that it was scrapped after the French rejected it? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Did it really confuse you when I asked why the UK hadn't held a referendum? We didn't, because there was no reason as the planned course of action was already dead in the water. Do you know what I'm talking about? I'm not ignorant of the point at hand. You're conveniently ignoring the point I'm making about your claim in another thread (and now this one) that a minority voted Leave.so this isn’t just a one v one thread ... where was This said ?" https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/766429 - "A minority like 17m out of 65m" This thread - "a minority of the electorate did" | |||
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" They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. " It's a massive flaw of human nature through the ages. People are scared of accepting personal or collective responsibility and rush to simple and wrong answers to complicated matters. If you are a lefty retard you will blame the straight white male or patriarchy for everything. If you are a right wing retard you will blame the immigrants and the EU. Small minds! | |||
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" They find a group to focus hate on. It's a tried and tested political strategy which comes into it's own in times of economic stress. You are being an apologist. It's a massive flaw of human nature through the ages. People are scared of accepting personal or collective responsibility and rush to simple and wrong answers to complicated matters. If you are a lefty retard you will blame the straight white male or patriarchy for everything. If you are a right wing retard you will blame the immigrants and the EU. Small minds! " And if you are a complete retard you blame democracy | |||
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