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2p or not 2p
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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
Seems likely that the last of our copper coinage could be phased out.
Spending habits have changed, with online and contactless taking over. The cost of handling the 1p and 2p coins is more than they are worth.
Should the UK follow other countries like Canada, and round prices up or down to allow for copper coinage to be withdrawn? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Seems likely that the last of our copper coinage could be phased out.
Spending habits have changed, with online and contactless taking over. The cost of handling the 1p and 2p coins is more than they are worth.
Should the UK follow other countries like Canada, and round prices up or down to allow for copper coinage to be withdrawn?"
After removing the coins from circulation I wonder which way prices will go ???
Up or down !!!!
I would imagine there will be a spike in inflation when they will be removed ! |
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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
"
I am not saying I would be adverse to these coins leaving circulation.
I banked £270 of change just after Xmas. This was mostly copper 5p and 20p coins.
So I don't really keep the small stuff in my pockets. |
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"In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
"
True, but when we abandoned the half penny the maximum inflation that could be incurred by that move was 100%. By abandoning both the penny and two penny coin at the same time the maximum inflation caused becomes 500%, that is a significant difference. The question that we should be asking is why now and why such a proposal when there is an obviously more prudent alternative of just abandoning the penny and keeping the maximum inflationary rise down to 100% like the last time we abandoned a coin? I suspect the answer is that this move will turn out to be another device to hide a rise in inflation and further cuts to welfare benefits caused by the economic policies of this government. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
True, but when we abandoned the half penny the maximum inflation that could be incurred by that move was 100%. By abandoning both the penny and two penny coin at the same time the maximum inflation caused becomes 500%, that is a significant difference. The question that we should be asking is why now and why such a proposal when there is an obviously more prudent alternative of just abandoning the penny and keeping the maximum inflationary rise down to 100% like the last time we abandoned a coin? I suspect the answer is that this move will turn out to be another device to hide a rise in inflation and further cuts to welfare benefits caused by the economic policies of this government."
How did you work out that getting rid of the 1p and 2p coins could cause prices to quintuple?
If an item is 99p, and goes up to £1, it has gone up by 1.01%. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
True, but when we abandoned the half penny the maximum inflation that could be incurred by that move was 100%. By abandoning both the penny and two penny coin at the same time the maximum inflation caused becomes 500%, that is a significant difference. The question that we should be asking is why now and why such a proposal when there is an obviously more prudent alternative of just abandoning the penny and keeping the maximum inflationary rise down to 100% like the last time we abandoned a coin? I suspect the answer is that this move will turn out to be another device to hide a rise in inflation and further cuts to welfare benefits caused by the economic policies of this government.
How did you work out that getting rid of the 1p and 2p coins could cause prices to quintuple?
If an item is 99p, and goes up to £1, it has gone up by 1.01%."
It's called willconomics...it all adds up - honest! |
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"How did you work out that getting rid of the 1p and 2p coins could cause prices to quintuple?
If an item is 99p, and goes up to £1, it has gone up by 1.01%."
It is really quite simple. Firstly I understand the difference between maximum and minimum. Clearly you don't. But I will male it really easy for you. I said the MAXIMUM inflationary rate would be 100% because a 1/2p coin was half the value of a 1p coin therefore an item that cost 1/2p before the 1/2p coin was taken out of circulation would then cost 1p. Therefore its price doubled, therefore 100% inflation. If the government removed the 1p coin leaving the 2p coin in circulation then the inflation ratio would be the same and 100%. However if both 1p and 2 p coins are removed from circulation at the same time then the smallest coin becomes the 5p coin. As a result an item that costs 1p would rise in price to 5p and that is an inflation rate of 500%.
And just to show how totally stupid your attempt to discredit me was rather than saying a 99p item going up to £1 would be what ever you could have said a £9.99, £99.99, £999.99, £9999.99 etc and just kept moving the decimal point on your inflation figure one place to the left each time you added an extra digit before the the decimal place.
Thaty is why I said MAXIMUM.
"It's called willconomics...it all adds up - honest!"
You really should invest in a pair of reading glasses.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How did you work out that getting rid of the 1p and 2p coins could cause prices to quintuple?
If an item is 99p, and goes up to £1, it has gone up by 1.01%.
It is really quite simple. Firstly I understand the difference between maximum and minimum. Clearly you don't. But I will male it really easy for you. I said the MAXIMUM inflationary rate would be 100% because a 1/2p coin was half the value of a 1p coin therefore an item that cost 1/2p before the 1/2p coin was taken out of circulation would then cost 1p. Therefore its price doubled, therefore 100% inflation. If the government removed the 1p coin leaving the 2p coin in circulation then the inflation ratio would be the same and 100%. However if both 1p and 2 p coins are removed from circulation at the same time then the smallest coin becomes the 5p coin. As a result an item that costs 1p would rise in price to 5p and that is an inflation rate of 500%.
And just to show how totally stupid your attempt to discredit me was rather than saying a 99p item going up to £1 would be what ever you could have said a £9.99, £99.99, £999.99, £9999.99 etc and just kept moving the decimal point on your inflation figure one place to the left each time you added an extra digit before the the decimal place.
Thaty is why I said MAXIMUM.
It's called willconomics...it all adds up - honest!
You really should invest in a pair of reading glasses.
"
Thanks for the tip but I'd already noticed you had said 'maximum'. |
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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
You set a rounding up/down figure weighted on the down.
3p or less rounds down, over 3p it rounds up.
One loser could be charities. I spend my time on a Friday putting all my coppers into the charity bottle on the bar. I don't want them in my pocket, and they welcome them, so win/win there. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"How did you work out that getting rid of the 1p and 2p coins could cause prices to quintuple?
If an item is 99p, and goes up to £1, it has gone up by 1.01%.
It is really quite simple. Firstly I understand the difference between maximum and minimum. Clearly you don't. But I will male it really easy for you. I said the MAXIMUM inflationary rate would be 100% because a 1/2p coin was half the value of a 1p coin therefore an item that cost 1/2p before the 1/2p coin was taken out of circulation would then cost 1p. Therefore its price doubled, therefore 100% inflation. If the government removed the 1p coin leaving the 2p coin in circulation then the inflation ratio would be the same and 100%. However if both 1p and 2 p coins are removed from circulation at the same time then the smallest coin becomes the 5p coin. As a result an item that costs 1p would rise in price to 5p and that is an inflation rate of 500%.
And just to show how totally stupid your attempt to discredit me was rather than saying a 99p item going up to £1 would be what ever you could have said a £9.99, £99.99, £999.99, £9999.99 etc and just kept moving the decimal point on your inflation figure one place to the left each time you added an extra digit before the the decimal place.
Thaty is why I said MAXIMUM.
It's called willconomics...it all adds up - honest!
You really should invest in a pair of reading glasses.
"
Ok....
What's the MINIMUM inflation caused by getting rid of 1p and 2p coins.
And what's more likely? The maximum or minimum.
And apart from anything, pray tell us all how many things can be bought for 1p?
You sound like a remainer....spreading fear of 500% inflation if we get rid of 1p and 2p coins.
I don't need to accuse you of being stupid, or even try to belittle you; you're doing a perfectly good job of that yourself. |
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The whole point is if you are going to calculate the effect of any change you need to find a constant for any numbers to have meaning and when talking about withdrawing currency denominations the only constant is the lowest coin issued. Therefore the only meaningful inflation number is that generated by calculating the % difference those two coins.
That is the maximum possible % inflation, anything else is just word salad. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"The whole point is if you are going to calculate the effect of any change you need to find a constant for any numbers to have meaning and when talking about withdrawing currency denominations the only constant is the lowest coin issued. Therefore the only meaningful inflation number is that generated by calculating the % difference those two coins.
That is the maximum possible % inflation, anything else is just word salad."
Ha,ha...."word salad"...how ironic .....
I'm crapping my pants...we're going to get rid of the 1p and 2p and inflation is going to be 500%. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
In the US, retail prices are rounded to 5c eg ‘$9.95’. Is there also a chance that if we lose the ability to price something at £9.99 that retailers might actually go down to £9.95? Rather than round up to £10 and lose the feelgood factor?
-Matt |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"In the US, retail prices are rounded to 5c eg ‘$9.95’. Is there also a chance that if we lose the ability to price something at £9.99 that retailers might actually go down to £9.95? Rather than round up to £10 and lose the feelgood factor?
-Matt"
Undoubtedly there is! So this could mean inflation at 500%, or deflation at 400%, by Will's calculation. ....
Or, more likely, changes so minute that nobody will notice..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the US, retail prices are rounded to 5c eg ‘$9.95’. Is there also a chance that if we lose the ability to price something at £9.99 that retailers might actually go down to £9.95? Rather than round up to £10 and lose the feelgood factor?
-Matt
Undoubtedly there is! So this could mean inflation at 500%, or deflation at 400%, by Will's calculation. ....
Or, more likely, changes so minute that nobody will notice....."
Tsk...you didnt prefix inflation and deflation with 'maximum'.
Remember the first and second rules of Willconomics:
1. Always quote the worst case scenario to invoke fear, uncertainty and doubt.
2. Anything else is just word salad |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"In the US, retail prices are rounded to 5c eg ‘$9.95’. Is there also a chance that if we lose the ability to price something at £9.99 that retailers might actually go down to £9.95? Rather than round up to £10 and lose the feelgood factor?
-Matt
Undoubtedly there is! So this could mean inflation at 500%, or deflation at 400%, by Will's calculation. ....
Or, more likely, changes so minute that nobody will notice.....
Tsk...you didnt prefix inflation and deflation with 'maximum'.
Remember the first and second rules of Willconomics:
1. Always quote the worst case scenario to invoke fear, uncertainty and doubt.
2. Anything else is just word salad "
Only one real-world rule to remember
1....if it's not word salad it's 'talking bollocks'.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Beer will have to go up in 5p increments to."
it goes up in 30 pence increments anyway .... seems like it's a monthly thing too in some towns and cities
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There was no need to panic, anyway. Coin denominations have nothing to do with inflation.
When the smallest denomination coins get dropped, the prices of individual items don’t suddenly get rounded up or down by 5p the a time. The psychology of pricing something at £X.99 is far too important to sales and marketing to let it go.
So, what happens is that the total cost of an entire transaction is rounded up or down. You’ll do your weekly shop, and you’ll still buy items at 37p or 82p or whatever. It all gets run through the till and the final total is rounded; 1 and 2 get rounded down to 0, 3 and 4 get rounded up to 5. And the reality is that, to appeal to customers, most shops round down regardless. They can take a 4p hit and it does more than 4p good to their business. |
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Ireland did it and the total bill gets rounded up or down depending on if it ends in 1, 2, 3 or 4.
Pretty simple and I havent noticed. Id completely forgot we'd done it until this thread popped up. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
True, but when we abandoned the half penny the maximum inflation that could be incurred by that move was 100%. By abandoning both the penny and two penny coin at the same time the maximum inflation caused becomes 500%, that is a significant difference. The question that we should be asking is why now and why such a proposal when there is an obviously more prudent alternative of just abandoning the penny and keeping the maximum inflationary rise down to 100% like the last time we abandoned a coin? I suspect the answer is that this move will turn out to be another device to hide a rise in inflation and further cuts to welfare benefits caused by the economic policies of this government."
Yes everything will g up by a pence or two but this is not really a government thing and how will it cut benefits?You are crazy and deluded in your beliefs |
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"In fact, Australia, Brazil, Finland, Israel, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK have also abandoned small value coins.
True, but when we abandoned the half penny the maximum inflation that could be incurred by that move was 100%. By abandoning both the penny and two penny coin at the same time the maximum inflation caused becomes 500%, that is a significant difference. The question that we should be asking is why now and why such a proposal when there is an obviously more prudent alternative of just abandoning the penny and keeping the maximum inflationary rise down to 100% like the last time we abandoned a coin? I suspect the answer is that this move will turn out to be another device to hide a rise in inflation and further cuts to welfare benefits caused by the economic policies of this government.Yes everything will g up by a pence or two but this is not really a government thing and how will it cut benefits?You are crazy and deluded in your beliefs"
Yes, all prices and VAT charged on cash purchases will rise by a penny or maybe 4 (unless you pay by credit card thus helping in the move towards a physical money-less economy and the creeping state and bank control of all financial transactions that goes with that, except of course for state benefits which are almost guaranteed to be rounded down. And congratulations you have found the perfect way to dismiss, ignore and forget anything I say because you have decided I am deluded. Anyway since this cloud has been dispersed by the government dropping this proposal you still have your silver lining and will still be able to ignore anything i say you disagree with.
One question: I know it does not happen often, but when you and I are in agreement does that mean that you too are delusional or am I having a lucid moment? |
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"Ireland did it and the total bill gets rounded up or down depending on if it ends in 1, 2, 3 or 4.
Pretty simple and I havent noticed. Id completely forgot we'd done it until this thread popped up."
You are applying RoI political and economic values to the UK. You need to remember in the UK we have a Tory government that is on an ideological crusade to further impoverish the poor and middle classes to further enrich the rich. So what would be a reasonable and uncontroversial proposal in the RoI may conceal a malign policy move in the UK. |
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Will, please, stop. It’s embarrassing how wrong you’re getting this.
Trust me, I hate the Tories as much as you.
The coins in circulation have nothing to do with inflation. They have nothing to do with benefits.
It costs more than 1p to make a 1p coin. The cost to the economy of rounding up or down the amount somebody pays is pretty much zero. The saving from not producing and handling the coins is massive. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Will, please, stop. It’s embarrassing how wrong you’re getting this.
Trust me, I hate the Tories as much as you.
The coins in circulation have nothing to do with inflation. They have nothing to do with benefits.
It costs more than 1p to make a 1p coin. The cost to the economy of rounding up or down the amount somebody pays is pretty much zero. The saving from not producing and handling the coins is massive."
that 'reasoning' just sounds like a bunch of crap that newly graduated economists spout when they're all starry eyed and idealistic .... it's still just a bunch of crap though |
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Actually, it’s the reasoning of having lived in a country at a time that they had phased out their lowest denomination coins.
Unless you want to argue the fact that a 1p coin costs more than 1p to make because, really, I’d like to see that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Actually, it’s the reasoning of having lived in a country at a time that they had phased out their lowest denomination coins.
Unless you want to argue the fact that a 1p coin costs more than 1p to make because, really, I’d like to see that."
still sounds like a bunch economist crap no matter how you dress it up dude |
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No offence, chap, but reading your other posts in the thread, you don’t have the firmest grasp on the topic. Dismissing it as ‘economist crap’ is exactly what I’d expect in a thread full of ill-informed, alarmist “I reckons”. It’s pretty sad. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No offence, chap, but reading your other posts in the thread, you don’t have the firmest grasp on the topic. Dismissing it as ‘economist crap’ is exactly what I’d expect in a thread full of ill-informed, alarmist “I reckons”. It’s pretty sad."
it's utter economist crap ... which is why it's not happening in the real world ... because it's economist crap  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You realise this has actually happened in the actual real world? Not in the UK, but in several other countries. Jesus wept."
this is the real world butty boy ... wake up and smell the espresso chap ... it's not happening!!!! .... it was all just economist crap!!! .... you do understand that don't you ... i'll say it again just to make sure you get it ... it's not happening because it's just economist crap |
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I know that it’s not happening in the UK just now. However, it is a thing that has actually happened in other countries, and none of the alarmist shite spouted in here happened.
You’re not the brightest, are you? |
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I don't like consumer price rises because central banks withdraw currency - I've encountered it overseas, with retailers gaining but not the public.
Poorer people including the elderly rely on cash, the last people who should lose out. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I know that it’s not happening in the UK just now. However, it is a thing that has actually happened in other countries, and none of the alarmist shite spouted in here happened.
You’re not the brightest, are you?"
no need for your vituperation mucker ... face it ... it ain't happening because it is just economist crap ... just accept that fact |
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At the risk of repeating myself, it is a thing that has happened elsewhere before. It’s not a mythical beast, it’s not invented. It is a thing that countries actually do when low denomination coins have so little value that they are not worth having. The OP even provided a list of countries where it has happened and, guess what, it worked. Maybe go and read about it. You might learn something. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"At the risk of repeating myself, it is a thing that has happened elsewhere before. It’s not a mythical beast, it’s not invented. It is a thing that countries actually do when low denomination coins have so little value that they are not worth having. The OP even provided a list of countries where it has happened and, guess what, it worked. Maybe go and read about it. You might learn something."
it's not happening sonny boy ... it's made up economist crap ... i don't how much you fight it ... it' NOT HAPPENING!!!!! because it's economist crap!!! .... and that's a fact kiddo |
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No. I know it’s not ‘economist crap’ because I’ve experienced it. I lived in the Netherlands when they didn’t have 1 and 2 cent coins. Just because they’ve decided not to do it here (for now) does not make it some non-existent concept, just because you can’t get your head around it.
I’m wasting my time with you, though. You’re too busy banging your drum about what you reckon to bother learning something. I genuinely pity you. |
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Look everyone we all know that money looses value over time and points are reached where coins are withdrawn, it happens everywhere. That was never the issue with this withdrawn (for the moment) proposal.
The issue is that in the normal course of events the lowest denomination of currency is withdrawn and the second lowest coin which is worth double the value of the first replaces it. At the same time there is a restructuring of coinage so that there is another coin worth double the value of the lowest denomination of coin is introduced. In this way the maximum rise in any price will be no more that 100% and because of the relatively little value of the coin being withdrawn the effect is marginal if anything. This time the proposal was not to follow this standard modal but to accelerate the process withdrawing 2 coins and magnify the effects and therefore we cannot glibly believe the results will be the same as before, macro economics do not work like that.
As for the equally glib the idea has been binned so nothing to worry about, I seem to remember a 2017 Tory Election Manifesto pledge to replace free school dinners with free school breakfasts. That was withdrawn within days of the manifesto being published. Anyone know the exact date when 1,000,000 children loose their free school dinner? Anyone heard of any plans to give those MILLION children a free breakfast to replace what may is taking from them? (I haven't.) And expanding on May's past record on issues like this and civil liberty when she was Home Secretary would anyone be really surprised to find this plicy reintroduced as a 'fait au complet' but expanded to make the smallest denomination of coin a 10p piece? After all she is not nicknamed the submarine in parliament for no reason. |
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"Good girl Theresa, keep up the good work
When Irish men are cheering on Tory PM's the British people should start closely following and examining actions of their government. "
Really, I thought Maggie was a great woman as well. I’m sure there’s loads of Irish men( and women) who cheer on Labour at the moment, each to their own I judge governments on what they do for me not on how other nationalities view them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No. I know it’s not ‘economist crap’ because I’ve experienced it. I lived in the Netherlands when they didn’t have 1 and 2 cent coins. Just because they’ve decided not to do it here (for now) does not make it some non-existent concept, just because you can’t get your head around it.
I’m wasting my time with you, though. You’re too busy banging your drum about what you reckon to bother learning something. I genuinely pity you."
piling on the ad hominem doesn't alter the fact that it's not happening because it's economist crap .... the irrelevance of your life in holland is just that, irrelevant .... the concept is still economist crap ... accept that fact and move on in your life. |
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"The issue is that in the normal course of events the lowest denomination of currency is withdrawn and the second lowest coin which is worth double the value of the first replaces it."
That’s not correct.
"In this way the maximum rise in any price will be no more that 100%"
Thats not correct, either. |
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