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Arms Sales ?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is it time for the UK to set an example and Ban all Arms Sales to other Countries ?
I would support this myself ."
God no it's time to step it up if anything all exports are good |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Is it time for the UK to set an example and Ban all Arms Sales to other Countries ?
I would support this myself .
God no it's time to step it up if anything all exports are good "
Exporting Death just because others do is good then ? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Is it time for the UK to set an example and Ban all Arms Sales to other Countries ?
I would support this myself ."
A noble thought. Just a couple of points:-
1. Where are you going to find the equivalent number of highly skilled jobs for the tens of thousands employed in the UK defence industry?
2. Without overseas sales to subsidise our products, said products for our own domestic market will soar in price. |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
oh and we as a govt dont export weapons several private companies do they would just move production elswhere and charge us more for them .plus any gap in the market would rapidly be filled by our competitors to the detriment of our econemy |
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I'd love this to be the case but assume that the arms sector has enormous power upon the government and the complications mean that no-one is brave enough to do the ethically correct thing, so remain a me-too, alongside the other countries selling arms overseas. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We arm some of the most brutal regimes on earth.Its a clear message to the downtrodden and the repressed in these countries we support these regimes.We are not neutrals.We are complicit and history will judge us to have the blood of these children and civilians on our hands.
We get all high and mighty on non proliferation of nuclear weapons,which ironically many here believe both sides need to prevent war.Yet a slow body count is preferred to a instant flash of a mushroom cloud. Just fucking beautiful logic |
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Yeah, I'd be for this. Sure it'd cause economic difficulties but we've shown as a country we're quite willing to risk that for the sake of getting out of the EU. Why can't we risk it for the sake of not being part of slaughtering people en mass? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Yeah, I'd be for this. Sure it'd cause economic difficulties but we've shown as a country we're quite willing to risk that for the sake of getting out of the EU. Why can't we risk it for the sake of not being part of slaughtering people en mass? "
But the people still end up dead!
Any agreement has to be multi-lateral. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"No, it's a terrible idea. "
How can it be terrible ?
2 wrongs don't make a Right !
Money isn't everything !
Ban all arms exports private of not from the Uk .
Ban all arms Imports to the UK .
Only use our own and make them the Best not the Cheapest !
Re open Tank factory's ect
More Skilled jobs .
No blood on Uk hands !
What's not to like even for the Lefties !!! |
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"Yeah, I'd be for this. Sure it'd cause economic difficulties but we've shown as a country we're quite willing to risk that for the sake of getting out of the EU. Why can't we risk it for the sake of not being part of slaughtering people en mass?
But the people still end up dead!
Any agreement has to be multi-lateral."
So there's nothing to be said for keeping our own hands clean? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"We arm some of the most brutal regimes on earth.Its a clear message to the downtrodden and the repressed in these countries we support these regimes.We are not neutrals.We are complicit and history will judge us to have the blood of these children and civilians on our hands.
We get all high and mighty on non proliferation of nuclear weapons,which ironically many here believe both sides need to prevent war.Yet a slow body count is preferred to a instant flash of a mushroom cloud. Just fucking beautiful logic"
?? |
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"Yeah, I'd be for this. Sure it'd cause economic difficulties but we've shown as a country we're quite willing to risk that for the sake of getting out of the EU. Why can't we risk it for the sake of not being part of slaughtering people en mass?
But the people still end up dead!
Any agreement has to be multi-lateral."
'Any agreement has to be multi-lateral.' 
That's a logical fallacy - many appropriate decisions are taken, for moral and other reasons, without needing universal agreement. The UK has control over its own laws but only has influence upon those in other countries: one way that it could increase its authority upon the world is to make morally good decisions and to act accordingly. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century."
Bugger !
Wish I'd thought of that annology .
Agreed ! |
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A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions.. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"142000 people work in the Defence industry and supply chain in the UK.
Of course, there is a difference between Defence and Offence ."
I am fairly confident my idea would Create more Jobs not less !
Let's make it clear , in my idea every Plane , Every Tank , Ship would have 100 per cent Parts made in the UK down to the last Nut , Bolt , Rivet .
Yes it would cost more !
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century. Bugger !
Wish I'd thought of that annology .
Agreed !"
Your welcome.Money tends to blur perspective and skew the moral compass.If we stacked the corpses of children killed by our weapons down the mall 20ft deep then still only a few would be repulsed by our governments hypocrisy.
Comparing them to those in favour of slavery will not deter them from their view.
It's easy to see hiw crimes against humanity can be overlooked with ease .We will all sleep well tonight.  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century. Bugger !
Wish I'd thought of that annology .
Agreed !
Your welcome.Money tends to blur perspective and skew the moral compass.If we stacked the corpses of children killed by our weapons down the mall 20ft deep then still only a few would be repulsed by our governments hypocrisy.
Comparing them to those in favour of slavery will not deter them from their view.
It's easy to see hiw crimes against humanity can be overlooked with ease .We will all sleep well tonight. "
Agreed !
What gets me is that the Right excuse wrongs when it suits and so do the Left !
Why can't Wrong be just Wrong !
But I guess I'm been Simplistic ! |
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"A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions.. "
I don't think anyone here is being naive. The question of the topic is whether people would support the idea as morally the right thing to do, not whether or not it is likely to happen. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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What bugs me is not so much the arms sales to a brutal regime, but allowing the saudi government to spend a large sum of money (1 million? ) advertising on propaganda in London about how lovely the royal regime is (the one that beheads people in the street for being gay etc, including a 16 year old) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What bugs me is not so much the arms sales to a brutal regime, but allowing the saudi government to spend a large sum of money (1 million? ) advertising on propaganda in London about how lovely the royal regime is (the one that beheads people in the street for being gay etc, including a 16 year old) "
Both are Dusgusting !
I would prefer no Contact with Saudi ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What bugs me is not so much the arms sales to a brutal regime, but allowing the saudi government to spend a large sum of money (1 million? ) advertising on propaganda in London about how lovely the royal regime is (the one that beheads people in the street for being gay etc, including a 16 year old) Both are Dusgusting !
I would prefer no Contact with Saudi !"
Too right mate. Both equally so.
Like a shop selling a knife to someone thwy know fine well attacks people. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What bugs me is not so much the arms sales to a brutal regime, but allowing the saudi government to spend a large sum of money (1 million? ) advertising on propaganda in London about how lovely the royal regime is (the one that beheads people in the street for being gay etc, including a 16 year old) Both are Dusgusting !
I would prefer no Contact with Saudi !
Too right mate. Both equally so.
Like a shop selling a knife to someone thwy know fine well attacks people. "
yes ! |
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"A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions..
I don't think anyone here is being naive. The question of the topic is whether people would support the idea as morally the right thing to do, not whether or not it is likely to happen."
think we shall have to agree to disagree that anyone is being naive..
i know what the question is, my initial sentence does show that.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions..
I don't think anyone here is being naive. The question of the topic is whether people would support the idea as morally the right thing to do, not whether or not it is likely to happen.
think we shall have to agree to disagree that anyone is being naive..
i know what the question is, my initial sentence does show that.. "
How would you argue the case in Syria, regarding the criticism this government levels against assad? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria! "
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is it time for the UK to set an example and Ban all Arms Sales to other Countries ?
I would support this myself .
God no it's time to step it up if anything all exports are good Exporting Death just because others do is good then ?"
Now in all fairness take a look at the uk and it's former colonies , every where the uk has gone blood flowed (the butchers apron)
What's the change of heart why stop now ?? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this."
Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !"
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland "
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius! 
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
"
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples "
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland "
my personal wish would be 4 independent nations ! Let Northern Ireland rule itself ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia "
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
"
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !"
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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And the current government is trying to take as much control over devolved governments as they can out of brexit that's not a country that can say it's setting any examples |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , "
England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
"
The British government isnt going to set an example though! Because they are hypocrites, because they value money over morals, lives and anything decent by moral standards.
Btw Do you think it's a good idea for the uk to pull out of northern ireland just like that? Given the dangers of more armed violence?
As mentioned above, more autonomy and independent northern ireland would ne the way to go.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !"
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start"
We could let Ireland and the EU sort it out.Id wash my hands of all them crazies.They don't want peace.Their as bad as Shia and Sunni Muslims arguing over their imaginary friend. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start"
Why would you think there would be civil war ???
Northern Ireland ant decided on religious grounds its more loyalists and republican
So if you take away the crown influence that's a problem solved republicans won't be passed that there is uk involvement and loyalists have nothing to be loyal too |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start"
I think the offer of independence would bang thier heads together ! Shouldn't be any different to the last few years except neither side can blame us .
Duel passports might deal the deal ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start
Why would you think there would be civil war ???
Northern Ireland ant decided on religious grounds its more loyalists and republican
So if you take away the crown influence that's a problem solved republicans won't be passed that there is uk involvement and loyalists have nothing to be loyal too "
Loyalists are loyal to the monarchy, not the government. |
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"A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions..
I don't think anyone here is being naive. The question of the topic is whether people would support the idea as morally the right thing to do, not whether or not it is likely to happen.
think we shall have to agree to disagree that anyone is being naive..
i know what the question is, my initial sentence does show that..
How would you argue the case in Syria, regarding the criticism this government levels against assad? "
what case? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start
Why would you think there would be civil war ???
Northern Ireland ant decided on religious grounds its more loyalists and republican
So if you take away the crown influence that's a problem solved republicans won't be passed that there is uk involvement and loyalists have nothing to be loyal too "
The only real andwer is finding a common ground both parties can agree to. So far, power sharing and the good friday agreement has been sucessful.
(never thout in a million years that iain Paisley and martin mcguiness would be friendly)
It has to work coz i cant see how another path would work. Both parties habe to be treated with respect, otherwise all shit ckul start off agsin, and treating the Loyalists the way so mention would do just that
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions..
I don't think anyone here is being naive. The question of the topic is whether people would support the idea as morally the right thing to do, not whether or not it is likely to happen.
think we shall have to agree to disagree that anyone is being naive..
i know what the question is, my initial sentence does show that..
How would you argue the case in Syria, regarding the criticism this government levels against assad?
what case?"
Case of British government criticising the syrians and russians for civilisn casualties in one hand, while selling arms to the Saudis to kill yemen civilians in tbe other. |
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"A laudable idea but a bit naive given the intertwined politics/business/lobbying issue's that we are happy to accept as a society every time we do our democratic duty by ticking a box..
in a different climate globally and a different prosperous UK economic outlook perhaps a serious debate may take place but in the current times with the uncertainties of a post brexit UK it wont be anything more than an idea albeit with the right intentions..
I don't think anyone here is being naive. The question of the topic is whether people would support the idea as morally the right thing to do, not whether or not it is likely to happen.
think we shall have to agree to disagree that anyone is being naive..
i know what the question is, my initial sentence does show that..
How would you argue the case in Syria, regarding the criticism this government levels against assad?
what case?
Case of British government criticising the syrians and russians for civilisn casualties in one hand, while selling arms to the Saudis to kill yemen civilians in tbe other. "
standard political double speak..
same as when various governments have condemned regimes that torture people yet the same governments are ok with 'end user certificates' being part of the obfuscation and we didn't know cop out for devices such as cattle prods which end up in the hands of security services for use on people.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start
Why would you think there would be civil war ???
Northern Ireland ant decided on religious grounds its more loyalists and republican
So if you take away the crown influence that's a problem solved republicans won't be passed that there is uk involvement and loyalists have nothing to be loyal too
Loyalists are loyal to the monarchy, not the government. "
UK out = no monarchy = Nothing to be loyal to , |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why cant this government juzt say, it's fine for British made cluster bombs to be dropped on Yemen and blow kids n civilians, or does that then show the gross hypocrisy of this government by condemning whats going on Syria!
Because nobody wants to hold up their hands and say we are complicit in crimes against humanity. £5 billion in arms sales greases alot of palms.We are no better than any dictatorship or despot we supply.We deserve all that we will reap from this. Do we should set an Example and be the first to change things !
Want to set example ??
Pull out of northern Ireland
Then what?! Civil war?.. What Genius!
Putting back a border = war too
The majority of the people in Ireland don't want uk interface here , the majority of northern Ireland want to stay in eu , best option is england to pack up and go home ,
Any way your missing the point option asked about arms sales and suggested uk would be setting an examples
Firstly, if you think britain pulling out of northern Ireland will bring peace n harmony between catholics and protestants.. Fucking hell!! ,! your badly badly badly mistaken.
As for answering the op. In a nutshell so you can understand, no we shouldn't be selling arms to anyone., only tbose who dont behave like saudi Arabia
Op said about setting examples ,
My point is a country with as much blood on its hands as england can't take the higher moral ground and talk about setting examples by not selling weapons to groups in the middle east , while at the same time occupying part of Ireland them selves , the idea of england talking about setting examples is a joke ,
I'm not saying we have in the Past but why not start now !
But it ant the past , england is still a country that's occupying parts of on nations , England unfortunately isn't independent yet !
If and when we get our independence I would love us to relinquish anything that isn't this island !
Fully sgree, but we can't just piss off out of northern ireland and let a civil wsr start
Why would you think there would be civil war ???
Northern Ireland ant decided on religious grounds its more loyalists and republican
So if you take away the crown influence that's a problem solved republicans won't be passed that there is uk involvement and loyalists have nothing to be loyal too
The only real andwer is finding a common ground both parties can agree to. So far, power sharing and the good friday agreement has been sucessful.
(never thout in a million years that iain Paisley and martin mcguiness would be friendly)
It has to work coz i cant see how another path would work. Both parties habe to be treated with respect, otherwise all shit ckul start off agsin, and treating the Loyalists the way so mention would do just that
"
So will return to a border as is what's suggested , |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Where have you ever seen peace in a country that's being occupied by another ?? If the uk leaves loyalists will not be happy , but it's with the uk it won't be happy with in there eyes they will be betrayed by the crown , not nationalists. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Is it time for the UK to set an example and Ban all Arms Sales to other Countries ?
I would support this myself ."
Absolutely not, daft idea and only looks good through rose tinted glasses |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century."
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Where have you ever seen peace in a country that's being occupied by another ??
"
Most recently, Ireland
"
If the uk leaves loyalists will not be happy , but it's with the uk it won't be happy with in there eyes they will be betrayed by the crown , not nationalists. "
Betrayed by the government, which they feel no allegiance to.
If you want a return to the "the troubles' i reckon your way is one way of starting it. I prefer the power sharing and devolution route rather than risk that happening again.
Which is why i want an open border, even at the expense of brexit |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Where have you ever seen peace in a country that's being occupied by another ??
Most recently, Ireland
If the uk leaves loyalists will not be happy , but it's with the uk it won't be happy with in there eyes they will be betrayed by the crown , not nationalists.
Betrayed by the government, which they feel no allegiance to.
If you want a return to the "the troubles' i reckon your way is one way of starting it. I prefer the power sharing and devolution route rather than risk that happening again.
Which is why i want an open border, even at the expense of brexit"
Can you not see a return to war is written all over this if there is anything that resembles the borders of the past it spells war ,as things stand and the changes happening in demographic there will be a vote for reunification it will happen soon or later , so why not move now |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century.
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings"
That's because you are in favour of supplying regimes that suppress other humans and the analogy sits uneasy with those in favour.The analogy was that those against the abolition of slavery proposed others would take their place and the slave trade would continue..Spin it how you like its a fair comparison. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century.
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings
That's because you are in favour of supplying regimes that suppress other humans and the analogy sits uneasy with those in favour.The analogy was that those against the abolition of slavery proposed others would take their place and the slave trade would continue..Spin it how you like its a fair comparison."
This government hypocritical.
Being critical of syria and Russia, to tow the line regarding america, yet selling arms to arabia, as the Americas do, and also isreal.
I have seen a report on America selling weapons to the Ukraine even.
All part of a grand game to get thrir hands on Syria, and put pressure on Russia.
|
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century.
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings
That's because you are in favour of supplying regimes that suppress other humans and the analogy sits uneasy with those in favour.The analogy was that those against the abolition of slavery proposed others would take their place and the slave trade would continue..Spin it how you like its a fair comparison.
This government hypocritical.
Being critical of syria and Russia, to tow the line regarding america, yet selling arms to arabia, as the Americas do, and also isreal.
I have seen a report on America selling weapons to the Ukraine even.
All part of a grand game to get thrir hands on Syria, and put pressure on Russia.
"
All Governments and Party's have double standards !
The point should be why do we have to ?
Would you Jump off a bridge if everyone Else Did ?
Let's be the First to stop Arms Sales ! |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century.
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings
That's because you are in favour of supplying regimes that suppress other humans and the analogy sits uneasy with those in favour.The analogy was that those against the abolition of slavery proposed others would take their place and the slave trade would continue..Spin it how you like its a fair comparison.
This government hypocritical.
Being critical of syria and Russia, to tow the line regarding america, yet selling arms to arabia, as the Americas do, and also isreal.
I have seen a report on America selling weapons to the Ukraine even.
All part of a grand game to get thrir hands on Syria, and put pressure on Russia.
All Governments and Party's have double standards !
The point should be why do we have to ?
Would you Jump off a bridge if everyone Else Did ?
Let's be the First to stop Arms Sales !"
Norway and Germany have already banned arms sales to any country involved in the Yemen conflict.
I'm not entirely sure of the values here but probably pretty small. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I am sure when abolitionist proposed ending Britain's part in the Atlantic slave trade,many said it was a terrible idea and others would take over and continue the trade wile we lost millions...Same bullshit different century.
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings
That's because you are in favour of supplying regimes that suppress other humans and the analogy sits uneasy with those in favour.The analogy was that those against the abolition of slavery proposed others would take their place and the slave trade would continue..Spin it how you like its a fair comparison.
This government hypocritical.
Being critical of syria and Russia, to tow the line regarding america, yet selling arms to arabia, as the Americas do, and also isreal.
I have seen a report on America selling weapons to the Ukraine even.
All part of a grand game to get thrir hands on Syria, and put pressure on Russia.
All Governments and Party's have double standards !
The point should be why do we have to ?
Would you Jump off a bridge if everyone Else Did ?
Let's be the First to stop Arms Sales !
Norway and Germany have already banned arms sales to any country involved in the Yemen conflict.
I'm not entirely sure of the values here but probably pretty small."
Good ! It's a Pity we Don't ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"BAE Systems is a major employer and the UK is one of the leading arms dealers on the planet-war is buisness"
they also bank roll 'rememberance day' for the british legion and the money raised by the charity is anually invested in the company for 5 years.... as a foot note, Lt Gen Kizley was forced to resign as president of the legion after he was rumbled for apparently taking payment for lobbying on behalf of arms companies, and this was apparently going on while he was meant to be in 'purdah' ..... the list of MP's with interests in the 'defence' industry makes for interesting reading .... everything around the 'defence' industry stinks of shite |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I should add that the "Defense Industry" is in fact The War Industry. "
Many items on everyday use are derived from products developed for the military.
Microwave oven, digital camera, GPS systems, Epi-pens, freeze drying, duct tape and the daddy of them all, the internet. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The problem being it employs a lot of people and earns a lot of income for the country. Without them a lot of communities would suffer. The nation would suffer as the gov't has less tax. Easy to spout about it but there are two sides to every story! |
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As well as afirer tax system where the burden is not on the shoulders of the 99%, just get amazon and the other big companies that have a sweetheart deal with HMRC to pay their fair share of taxes and we're all good. No? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The problem being it employs a lot of people and earns a lot of income for the country. Without them a lot of communities would suffer. The nation would suffer as the gov't has less tax. Easy to spout about it but there are two sides to every story! "
So did the coal mines, the steel works, the car plants and so on. What’s so fucking special about these jobs? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all. |
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all. "
What about the carbon footprint? |
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"The problem being it employs a lot of people and earns a lot of income for the country. Without them a lot of communities would suffer. The nation would suffer as the gov't has less tax. Easy to spout about it but there are two sides to every story!
So did the coal mines, the steel works, the car plants and so on. What’s so fucking special about these jobs?"
These are skilled English jobs were talking about. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all. "
Under my idea thier would be more Jobs not less !
As we wouldn't be buying any Arms from Abroad At All ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all.
What about the carbon footprint? "
The future is in space not putting civilians in body bags.Dead kids or starships the choice is yours...  |
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all.
What about the carbon footprint?
The future is in space not putting civilians in body bags.Dead kids or starships the choice is yours... "
Save the planet. |
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all. Under my idea thier would be more Jobs not less !
As we wouldn't be buying any Arms from Abroad At All !"
Who's paying for all the arms then? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all.
What about the carbon footprint?
The future is in space not putting civilians in body bags.Dead kids or starships the choice is yours...
Save the planet. "
We need another planet.We use 1.5 planets a year.. |
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all.
What about the carbon footprint?
The future is in space not putting civilians in body bags.Dead kids or starships the choice is yours...
Save the planet. We need another planet.We use 1.5 planets a year.."
Maybe we could get an app for that? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all.
What about the carbon footprint?
The future is in space not putting civilians in body bags.Dead kids or starships the choice is yours...
Save the planet. We need another planet.We use 1.5 planets a year..
Maybe we could get an app for that? "
Yeah good idea!An app to show the resources an individual uses monthly.Like a ration card for the digital age.Very prophetic .. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I hear everyone saying but the arms industry employs thousands and makes billions.
Why not diversify.The obvious area to move into would be the space industry.We have the talent and the infrastructure.We need the government to invest.The skylon project is a good example of British engineering.We build satellites here also.We just need space port.In January we launched a British satellite on an Indian rocket!We could have our own rocket system.
People don't need to lose there jobs at all.
What about the carbon footprint?
The future is in space not putting civilians in body bags.Dead kids or starships the choice is yours...
Save the planet. We need another planet.We use 1.5 planets a year..
Maybe we could get an app for that? Yeah good idea!An app to show the resources an individual uses monthly.Like a ration card for the digital age.Very prophetic .. "
it is an individuals choice on how much resources they use each month and by doing so they contribute to the growth of the UK through tax & duty paid on the resources used.
.
You really think the treasury wants to stop this income |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
Should anybody be designing anything for the express purpose of killing other people?
No.
Will it happen anyway?
Yes.
So, is it economical to develop and deploy extremely sophisticated weapons systems without the prospect of selling them? Not really except for the USA, Russia and, now, China.
So would we then rely on one of those nations supplying us with weapons? The USA has been a very unreliable ally in the past.
So, as a nation we decide to maintain an independent arms industry, but it cannot be fully state funded. If we decide to sell weapons to make up the shortfall then they are likely to be used.
The defence industry also drives innovation and technology transfer into the civilian sphere.
Can we abandon the arms industry from the perspective of employment, technological growth and independence?
Probably not.
Can we do a better job of controlling to who we sell weapons?
Probably only a little bit.
It's one of those unenviable compromises that we can criticise someone else for making. Just as we criticise the fact that drugs are not provided to people at £1000k per to extend their lives by 6 months when the second money could be used in a myriad other ways to save lives. |
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I have a little bit of news for everyone here 'we' do not sell weapons or munitions to anyone. Thatcher privatised the arms industry, and American corporations have bought controlling interests in virtually every 'British' Arms manufacturer (a bit like they own BP), the few not american owned are owned by other foreign businesses. All our government can do is refuse export licences at which point manufacture of the weapons involved would be transferred out of the UK. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem being it employs a lot of people and earns a lot of income for the country. Without them a lot of communities would suffer. The nation would suffer as the gov't has less tax. Easy to spout about it but there are two sides to every story!
So did the coal mines, the steel works, the car plants and so on. What’s so fucking special about these jobs?"
They are just jobs like any other. They are special to those who's jobs that are though.
The coal, steel, car jobs are also important - but the old heavy industrial jobs disappeared because South Korea and the like could do it cheaper, faster and better. The same coud happen in the arms industry? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"The problem being it employs a lot of people and earns a lot of income for the country. Without them a lot of communities would suffer. The nation would suffer as the gov't has less tax. Easy to spout about it but there are two sides to every story!
So did the coal mines, the steel works, the car plants and so on. What’s so fucking special about these jobs?
They are just jobs like any other. They are special to those who's jobs that are though.
The coal, steel, car jobs are also important - but the old heavy industrial jobs disappeared because South Korea and the like could do it cheaper, faster and better. The same coud happen in the arms industry? "
Globalisation has allowed certain sectors to be spread worldwide but defence needs a good core base at home.
The UK has BAE systems, one of the world's largest defence contractors. To lose this sector would be folly. |
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"The UK has BAE systems, one of the world's largest defence contractors. To lose this sector would be folly."
Less than half of all BAE jobs are based in the UK.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/our-company/about-us/where-we-operate
Do you really think that a global corporation mainly owned by US investment funds would not close down all UK operations in a heartbeat if the British government refused to grant it export licences?
http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-overview.html?t=BA. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have a little bit of news for everyone here 'we' do not sell weapons or munitions to anyone. Thatcher privatised the arms industry, and American corporations have bought controlling interests in virtually every 'British' Arms manufacturer (a bit like they own BP), the few not american owned are owned by other foreign businesses. All our government can do is refuse export licences at which point manufacture of the weapons involved would be transferred out of the UK. "
so what was ca-morons beano all about six months after getting his sticky paws on power then? it sure wasn't a humanitarian aid mission..... then there's the time when that puffy, sweaty liam fox was off doing the double glazing salesman pitch for the arms companies, only he got rumbled for taking one of his bum-chums with him on full expenses and un-cleared full security access .... there's many more examples of politicians 'not involved since thatcher privatised the arms industry' .... it's bollox |
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"so what was ca-morons beano all about six months after getting his sticky paws on power then? it sure wasn't a humanitarian aid mission..... then there's the time when that puffy, sweaty liam fox was off doing the double glazing salesman pitch for the arms companies, only he got rumbled for taking one of his bum-chums with him on full expenses and un-cleared full security access .... there's many more examples of politicians 'not involved since thatcher privatised the arms industry' .... it's bollox"
I did not say our politicians are not involved in the arms business (they make great salesmen after all they dont even have to be properly paid just a little donation to party funds...), I said we do not own any of the arms industry. In fact i even provided links so you could check for yourself. Seems you either decided to ignore those or are incapable of understanding what they show. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I honestly don't think military equipment sales can be compared / likened to the market of capturing and enslavement of other human beings
That's because you are in favour of supplying regimes that suppress other humans and the analogy sits uneasy with those in favour.The analogy was that those against the abolition of slavery proposed others would take their place and the slave trade would continue..Spin it how you like its a fair comparison."
Nope, totally incorrect.
The entire slave trade and unavoidable detrimental impact affected the slaves and their families directly , arms sales to other countries do not have an instant direct impact by the sale alone. How and when the equipment is used is another matter.
The 2 cannot be compared at all, and your comparison does not sit uneasy with me either, it's just not a comparable comparison. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Under my idea thier would be more Jobs not less !
As we wouldn't be buying any Arms from Abroad At All !"
If you want a slice of toast for your breakfast do you go and plant your wheat, grow it, mill it, create yeast, mix it all and bake a loaf , or do you nip to a shop and buy a ready made loaf ?
You cannot design and produce much in this Country that will only be supplied to this country. It's just pie in the sky thinking that we can. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"so what was ca-morons beano all about six months after getting his sticky paws on power then? it sure wasn't a humanitarian aid mission..... then there's the time when that puffy, sweaty liam fox was off doing the double glazing salesman pitch for the arms companies, only he got rumbled for taking one of his bum-chums with him on full expenses and un-cleared full security access .... there's many more examples of politicians 'not involved since thatcher privatised the arms industry' .... it's bollox
I did not say our politicians are not involved in the arms business (they make great salesmen after all they dont even have to be properly paid just a little donation to party funds...), I said we do not own any of the arms industry. In fact i even provided links so you could check for yourself. Seems you either decided to ignore those or are incapable of understanding what they show."
the list of politicians with interests in arms companies makes for interesting reading ... it's bollox |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Under my idea thier would be more Jobs not less !
As we wouldn't be buying any Arms from Abroad At All !
If you want a slice of toast for your breakfast do you go and plant your wheat, grow it, mill it, create yeast, mix it all and bake a loaf , or do you nip to a shop and buy a ready made loaf ?
You cannot design and produce much in this Country that will only be supplied to this country. It's just pie in the sky thinking that we can."
I never said it would be easy or over night
But it would be a nice pie if we could !
Also I like the bread idea I'm going to have a go at making my own ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I never said it would be easy or over night
But it would be a nice pie if we could !
Also I like the bread idea I'm going to have a go at making my own !"
To design and produce expensive items requires enough sales to make it possible. Home market only would not make it possible without huge loss. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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" I never said it would be easy or over night
But it would be a nice pie if we could !
Also I like the bread idea I'm going to have a go at making my own !
To design and produce expensive items requires enough sales to make it possible. Home market only would not make it possible without huge loss."
I'm talking every nut and bolt !
How much if the 2 carriers were made here with British made Parts ?
Imagine if they were ?
Also our Nuclear Deterent , Fighters ?
rifles ?
I know it couldn't happen overnight mind . |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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" Trouble is, we'd need skilled workers, not people with degrees in sending Email, or creating interesting graphs. "
Now someone is catching on !
Wow we start training Apprentices in Engineering , Electronics ect x
Oh no !
We could end up with a skilled work force that might make other things and we might end up self sufficient in other areas and with a highly skilled well Paid Work Force !
Oh No !!! How Terrible !!! |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"The UK has BAE systems, one of the world's largest defence contractors. To lose this sector would be folly.
Less than half of all BAE jobs are based in the UK.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/our-company/about-us/where-we-operate
Do you really think that a global corporation mainly owned by US investment funds would not close down all UK operations in a heartbeat if the British government refused to grant it export licences?
http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-overview.html?t=BA."
Good point.
Take Cadbury as a recent reference.
Bought by Nestle with promises not to shut down their Bristol factory.
Gates shut within months.
Foreign owned companies will shut down the place which is not in the country where the Board lives.
Now think about Vauxhall. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
" Trouble is, we'd need skilled workers, not people with degrees in sending Email, or creating interesting graphs. Now someone is catching on !
Wow we start training Apprentices in Engineering , Electronics ect x
Oh no !
We could end up with a skilled work force that might make other things and we might end up self sufficient in other areas and with a highly skilled well Paid Work Force !
Oh No !!! How Terrible !!!"
You first require a workforce motivated to be engineers.
The UK provides terrible prestige and relatively poor pay compared to other professions which is why we import so many.
Technical grades better paid bit still under supply. Not lack of training. Lack of candidates.
Also, at the top end of the technology scale, where we have to be, the R&D investment requires sales that cannot be sustained domestically. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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" Trouble is, we'd need skilled workers, not people with degrees in sending Email, or creating interesting graphs. Now someone is catching on !
Wow we start training Apprentices in Engineering , Electronics ect x
Oh no !
We could end up with a skilled work force that might make other things and we might end up self sufficient in other areas and with a highly skilled well Paid Work Force !
Oh No !!! How Terrible !!!
You first require a workforce motivated to be engineers.
The UK provides terrible prestige and relatively poor pay compared to other professions which is why we import so many.
Technical grades better paid bit still under supply. Not lack of training. Lack of candidates.
Also, at the top end of the technology scale, where we have to be, the R&D investment requires sales that cannot be sustained domestically."
Maybe not overnight but wouldn't it be good if we worked torwards this ! |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
" Trouble is, we'd need skilled workers, not people with degrees in sending Email, or creating interesting graphs. Now someone is catching on !
Wow we start training Apprentices in Engineering , Electronics ect x
Oh no !
We could end up with a skilled work force that might make other things and we might end up self sufficient in other areas and with a highly skilled well Paid Work Force !
Oh No !!! How Terrible !!!
You first require a workforce motivated to be engineers.
The UK provides terrible prestige and relatively poor pay compared to other professions which is why we import so many.
Technical grades better paid bit still under supply. Not lack of training. Lack of candidates.
Also, at the top end of the technology scale, where we have to be, the R&D investment requires sales that cannot be sustained domestically. Maybe not overnight but wouldn't it be good if we worked torwards this !"
I don't disagree with the sentiment. The economics don't support it.
The USA and China can afford to do these things as nation states. Russia can't afford to but does it anyway.
We can't except in partnership or commercially. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I never said it would be easy or over night
But it would be a nice pie if we could !
Also I like the bread idea I'm going to have a go at making my own !
To design and produce expensive items requires enough sales to make it possible. Home market only would not make it possible without huge loss. I'm talking every nut and bolt !
How much if the 2 carriers were made here with British made Parts ?
Imagine if they were ?
Also our Nuclear Deterent , Fighters ?
rifles ?
I know it couldn't happen overnight mind ."
I know you're talking every nut & bolt, it cannot be done in our Country without massive massive tax rises
Companies could not do it, they would go bust before the 1st product got off the production line.
The only other body that could do what you want is the Government but they don't have the capital to support your dream either without tax rises like never seen before.
It cannot be done. |
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