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The northen ireland border
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Continue here, it is interesting to hear the different views, what kind of border do you reckon they will have? Or is ireland holding uk in ransom, so brexit wont happen?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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if Britain suffers economically from Brexit, that could actually benefit the EU. It would underline the negative consequences of leaving the organisation and undermine Eurosceptic parties across the continent. And jobs and tax revenues could migrate from Britain to the EU.
(From financial Times ) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Continue here, it is interesting to hear the different views, what kind of border do you reckon they will have? Or is ireland holding uk in ransom, so brexit wont happen? "
Simon Coveney has now cast doubt on the feasibility of this saying he's not sure the European Union will be able to support this, due to worries regarding safeguarding the integrity of the bloc's single market. Coveney told the BBC's Andrew Marr they were going to explore this..Mrs May says she accepts the UK's responsibility to keep a soft border
Is this pessimistic? Clearly we're at the start of a negotiating period for Britain to align with EU rules |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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May suggested a Canadian US style border today ,and this is the irish response ,
"That is definitely not a solution that we can possibly entertain," Mr Varadkar |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Continue here, it is interesting to hear the different views, what kind of border do you reckon they will have? Or is ireland holding uk in ransom, so brexit wont happen?
Simon Coveney has now cast doubt on the feasibility of this saying he's not sure the European Union will be able to support this, due to worries regarding safeguarding the integrity of the bloc's single market. Coveney told the BBC's Andrew Marr they were going to explore this..Mrs May says she accepts the UK's responsibility to keep a soft border
Is this pessimistic? Clearly we're at the start of a negotiating period for Britain to align with EU rules "
The idea of an open border will not and can not work, either for the uk as you can't take control of your borders . And won't for the EU as there is going to compromise the eu single market ,
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If we look at the reality of the situation the EU and UK are going to end up with regulatory alignment and no real borders at all. Its going to be Brexit in name only. Its the only chance of solving the border issue and saving financial services passporting rights. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If we look at the reality of the situation the EU and UK are going to end up with regulatory alignment and no real borders at all. Its going to be Brexit in name only. Its the only chance of solving the border issue and saving financial services passporting rights."
But the hardliners want out of customs union and be able to do there own deals ?? |
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The fact is hard-line eurosceptics are also hard-line unionists and see a hard border between the North and South as a positive (as it would reverse the UKs acceptance that if the majority of the people of NI want to reunite with the South then that should happen) and are willing to have the UK pay the cost of consequences that follow from breaking multiple international treaties. |
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" brexit and the Dup
Have done more to increase support for nationalism and reunification
Than they think "
You forget that the DUP are the only NI party that refused to sign the Good Friday Agreement. The DUP would be more than happy to restart the troubles and see the return of the military, VCP's, sangers and watchtowers along the border return. |
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The Canadian / USA border sso option that May is going to spend time investigating would have been better if she'd at least done a little research. It has armed guards and checks, requiring passport production etc,
Certainly not a soft border. She constantly demonstrates how incompetent they are |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" brexit and the Dup
Have done more to increase support for nationalism and reunification
Than they think
You forget that the DUP are the only NI party that refused to sign the Good Friday Agreement. The DUP would be more than happy to restart the troubles and see the return of the military, VCP's, sangers and watchtowers along the border return."
I think the vast majority of people in northern Ireland would rather a United ireland than that option |
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"The Canadian / USA border sso option that May is going to spend time investigating would have been better if she'd at least done a little research. It has armed guards and checks, requiring passport production etc,
Certainly not a soft border. She constantly demonstrates how incompetent they are "
She is not incompetent at all, she and her government know exactly what they are doing. They are transferring all the wealth held in trust by government for the nation to their financial backers while at the same time using brexit to totally divide the nation thus making sure that whatever is left after brexit will be theirs and the rest of us will have been returned to virtual serfdom. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Canadian / USA border sso option that May is going to spend time investigating would have been better if she'd at least done a little research. It has armed guards and checks, requiring passport production etc,
Certainly not a soft border. She constantly demonstrates how incompetent they are
She is not incompetent at all, she and her government know exactly what they are doing. They are transferring all the wealth held in trust by government for the nation to their financial backers while at the same time using brexit to totally divide the nation thus making sure that whatever is left after brexit will be theirs and the rest of us will have been returned to virtual serfdom."
Jesus lad that's sceptical , |
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"Jesus lad that's sceptical , "
That is the honest conclusion I have reached after coldly examining the actions of the Tories since the 80's in the same way as I would examine the actions of an enemy (which is what I think they are). Their actions have been consistent, gradual and designed to undermine and destroy all opposition while at the same time selling off national assets at massively discounted prices to their financial backers.
At the same time as they have been doing this they have had their backers use the media they own to pump out propaganda against any organisation that opposes them and also sew disinformation, confusion and distraction.
It has worked...
The UK is to all intents fucked, this has been done by the tories and by the time the whole country wakes up to what has been done to them it will be too late to reverse the damage. |
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"How about north south Korea style border ? "
You mean one where every few weeks the military in the north shoot someone in the south dead and if anyone from the south shoots back then the north shells the south? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How about north south Korea style border ?
You mean one where every few weeks the military in the north shoot someone in the south dead and if anyone from the south shoots back then the north shells the south?"
if they put check points back on the border that's where it's heading |
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"You mean one where every few weeks the military in the north shoot someone in the south dead and if anyone from the south shoots back then the north shells the south? if they put check points back on the border that's where it's heading"
I can see a return of the troubles. The only difference being the British armed forces have been so gutted that there will not be the capability of sending 30,000 troops to NI to stop the civil war from becoming an open conflict. After all we have less than 20,000 army infantry and about 7000 Royal Marines. And it should be remembered that during the troubles the normal 'Op Banner' deployment was for 4 months. So we would have to use at least 3000 reservists as well as our full regular infantry strength just to cover the first 4 months... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You mean one where every few weeks the military in the north shoot someone in the south dead and if anyone from the south shoots back then the north shells the south? if they put check points back on the border that's where it's heading
I can see a return of the troubles. The only difference being the British armed forces have been so gutted that there will not be the capability of sending 30,000 troops to NI to stop the civil war from becoming an open conflict. After all we have less than 20,000 army infantry and about 7000 Royal Marines. And it should be remembered that during the troubles the normal 'Op Banner' deployment was for 4 months. So we would have to use at least 3000 reservists as well as our full regular infantry strength just to cover the first 4 months..."
On the plus side at least we won't be poking our noses into other areas of the world! |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I agree re the Tory assessment.
One look at who funds the Tory Party, one look at the CVs of the Ministers, and you will deduce it is the political wing of the city of London.
People harp on about Labour and class war.
We are seeing exactly the same from the Tories - the redistribution of the wealth of the state through a reduction and elimination of spending on the poorest and weakest, and its transfer through tax cuts and tax breaks to corporations, financiers and their share-holders.
The outcome is widening inequality - the concentration of wealth among a relatively small cohort.
All of it done in pursuit of an ideology that has been shown time and time again to fail - that if you give rich people more money they will spend it to create new wealth. They don't. Poor people spend money. Rich people salt it away in tax havens.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I agree re the Tory assessment.
One look at who funds the Tory Party, one look at the CVs of the Ministers, and you will deduce it is the political wing of the city of London.
People harp on about Labour and class war.
We are seeing exactly the same from the Tories - the redistribution of the wealth of the state through a reduction and elimination of spending on the poorest and weakest, and its transfer through tax cuts and tax breaks to corporations, financiers and their share-holders.
The outcome is widening inequality - the concentration of wealth among a relatively small cohort.
All of it done in pursuit of an ideology that has been shown time and time again to fail - that if you give rich people more money they will spend it to create new wealth. They don't. Poor people spend money. Rich people salt it away in tax havens.
"
You would prefer to see a more socialist Britain emerge from brexit ?? |
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"May suggested a Canadian US style border today ,and this is the irish response ,
"That is definitely not a solution that we can possibly entertain," Mr Varadkar"
Nobody who has actually crossed a land border from Canada into the USA or vice versa would suggest it as a solution for the Irish border. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You mean one where every few weeks the military in the north shoot someone in the south dead and if anyone from the south shoots back then the north shells the south? if they put check points back on the border that's where it's heading
I can see a return of the troubles. The only difference being the British armed forces have been so gutted that there will not be the capability of sending 30,000 troops to NI to stop the civil war from becoming an open conflict. After all we have less than 20,000 army infantry and about 7000 Royal Marines. And it should be remembered that during the troubles the normal 'Op Banner' deployment was for 4 months. So we would have to use at least 3000 reservists as well as our full regular infantry strength just to cover the first 4 months..."
Pull up the draw bridge and leave them to it |
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"Looks like uk has to figure out the border"
To be honest I can see The Conservative and Unionist Party abandoning NI, but not before they ensure that the religious civil war has not only been reignited but has been intensified to the maximum, and then leaving the mess to be dealt with by the RoI and EU. After all it is what they have done everywhere in the world where they have been forced out as a result of their policies. |
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"You mean one where every few weeks the military in the north shoot someone in the south dead and if anyone from the south shoots back then the north shells the south? if they put check points back on the border that's where it's heading
I can see a return of the troubles. The only difference being the British armed forces have been so gutted that there will not be the capability of sending 30,000 troops to NI to stop the civil war from becoming an open conflict. After all we have less than 20,000 army infantry and about 7000 Royal Marines. And it should be remembered that during the troubles the normal 'Op Banner' deployment was for 4 months. So we would have to use at least 3000 reservists as well as our full regular infantry strength just to cover the first 4 months..."
It's really sad, the generally decent citizens being thrown to the wolves. Venture capitalists and others around the world able to go into the UK to scavenge from all of the taxpayer funded assets, for the benefit of the very few highly wealthy. On a grander scale, it's akin to those Romanian orphanages' children living lives deprived of almost everything they needed, scaled up to the population of the UK, being led along a path to devastation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Looks like uk has to figure out the border
To be honest I can see The Conservative and Unionist Party abandoning NI, but not before they ensure that the religious civil war has not only been reignited but has been intensified to the maximum, and then leaving the mess to be dealt with by the RoI and EU. After all it is what they have done everywhere in the world where they have been forced out as a result of their policies."
Honestly think they that fucked up ?? |
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By *vsnikkiTV/TS
over a year ago
Limavady |
" brexit and the Dup
Have done more to increase support for nationalism and reunification
Than they think
You forget that the DUP are the only NI party that refused to sign the Good Friday Agreement. The DUP would be more than happy to restart the troubles and see the return of the military, VCP's, sangers and watchtowers along the border return."
Not actually true. The green party, TUV and PBP didn't sign up to it either. DUP policy is pro a soft border. No party is even advocating a return to a hard border and even if they were, the army is not big enough to man it. |
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This aspect of brexit does highlight the complexity of the process and the limited regard that the conservatives have for the countries involved - not to mention the people. The conservatives are just in a complete mess internally, trying to save their skins and in some instances wanting to advance to leadership. Meanwhile the very limited time available for these important negotiations is squandered, as May time and again says nothing of consequence, whilst trying to calm her rabble. The EU are just left with a waiting game, trying to understand the stupidity of the UK. 
The NI border is likely to be a sticking point for some time, as the conservatives appear clueless, by virtue of the constant repetition of vague, unworkable ideas, rather than concrete, universally agreed plans, with the parties involved. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
A lot of talk about N Ireland and not much about Gibraltar. If N Ireland is capable of tripping up the march to Brexit, then Gibraltar is surely a land mine in comparison especially as Spain seemingly has an absolute veto over all things Gibraltar? |
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Think its an interesting aspect which seems to have been missing from the debate..
Given Gibralters massive majority to remain in the Eu, might there be an internal referendum for a special status to remain in the SM/CU and yet remain a British oversea's territory..? |
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By *amnlisaCouple
over a year ago
letterkenny |
The British border in Ireland after brexit has been well discussed in the media. Less so the border between Gibraltar and Spain. What will the border between England and France be like at places like Dover, Portsmouth etc. Have preparations been made for the customs checks etc? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The British border in Ireland after brexit has been well discussed in the media. Less so the border between Gibraltar and Spain. What will the border between England and France be like at places like Dover, Portsmouth etc. Have preparations been made for the customs checks etc? "
No. The UK position is that things will very much stay the same and if they don't stay the same, then it will be the fault of the EU for not letting the UK have cake and eat it. |
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My fella served in NI as an infantry soldier. He reckoned then and still holds to the view that massive military power is not the answer to what was and still could be again, a largely sectarian conflict with the army again caught in the middle of another mess. It would be the same old story with the paramilitaries unable to defeat the British army and the army unable to destroy the ability of the paramilitaries to operate where they would have the support of a large section of the community. Th result would be tragedy again with both communities torn apart again by sectarian hatred and fear. No right-minded person wants a return to those dark days.So to conclude, the border isn't the real issue, it's a side show, the real issue is maintaining peace regardless of the short-term political gains for any party. The DUP would obviously like to see a hard border and with the majority of the people of NI who voted to remain in the EU at odds with them, it's difficult to say which way it will go politically because the DUP are currently holding all the cards in Parliament by propping up Mrs May's government and all at the bargain basement price of £10 billion pounds; that's £1 billion for each of the ten DUP representatives whose constituents reside across the Irish sea. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"My fella served in NI as an infantry soldier. He reckoned then and still holds to the view that massive military power is not the answer to what was and still could be again, a largely sectarian conflict with the army again caught in the middle of another mess. It would be the same old story with the paramilitaries unable to defeat the British army and the army unable to destroy the ability of the paramilitaries to operate where they would have the support of a large section of the community. Th result would be tragedy again with both communities torn apart again by sectarian hatred and fear. No right-minded person wants a return to those dark days.So to conclude, the border isn't the real issue, it's a side show, the real issue is maintaining peace regardless of the short-term political gains for any party. The DUP would obviously like to see a hard border and with the majority of the people of NI who voted to remain in the EU at odds with them, it's difficult to say which way it will go politically because the DUP are currently holding all the cards in Parliament by propping up Mrs May's government and all at the bargain basement price of £10 billion pounds; that's £1 billion for each of the ten DUP representatives whose constituents reside across the Irish sea. "
The "deal" was £1 billion total, not £10 billion! |
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Really? I appreciate the correction-a much better bribe than I imagined then-and there was I thinking that we were paying too much of our money to maintain Mrs May's grip on power. That makes me feel so much better. |
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"A lot of talk about N Ireland and not much about Gibraltar. If N Ireland is capable of tripping up the march to Brexit, then Gibraltar is surely a land mine in comparison especially as Spain seemingly has an absolute veto over all things Gibraltar?"
The UK government haven't shown that they particularly care about Gibraltar's citizens, or UK citizens living in mainland Europe - the latter weren't really given the chance to influence the EU membership vote and who could potentially have been displaced from their country of residence, by the government's action to leave the EU.
The conservative government isn't really doing much apart from crawl along, have their people issue statements that are often contradictory and usually miss the points that have been raised by people and the EU beforehand, such as the NI border. Progress is about as slow as it could be, due partly to the inept bunch in power, the conservative party inner struggles about Europe and seemingly overlooking many things that are highly important, usually until the last minute. |
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"A lot of talk about N Ireland and not much about Gibraltar. If N Ireland is capable of tripping up the march to Brexit, then Gibraltar is surely a land mine in comparison especially as Spain seemingly has an absolute veto over all things Gibraltar?
The UK government haven't shown that they particularly care about Gibraltar's citizens, or UK citizens living in mainland Europe - the latter weren't really given the chance to influence the EU membership vote and who could potentially have been displaced from their country of residence, by the government's action to leave the EU.
The conservative government isn't really doing much apart from crawl along, have their people issue statements that are often contradictory and usually miss the points that have been raised by people and the EU beforehand, such as the NI border. Progress is about as slow as it could be, due partly to the inept bunch in power, the conservative party inner struggles about Europe and seemingly overlooking many things that are highly important, usually until the last minute. "
The way the EU does its business is always leaving decisions to the last minute. Specifically on the point of Gibraltar the UK and the EU announced today in their joint press statements that they both agree Gibraltar will leave the EU when the UK leaves in March 2019, and the transition period will be less than 2 years, precisely 21 months so the end of the transition period will be December 31st 2020. |
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