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UK citizens have minimal confidence in Brexit
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Even conservatives now have a tiny minority who think Brexit is going well. Voters for other parties have even fewer people who think they're doing well. Within months it's feasible that less than 10% of conservatives will say it's positive -it's almost just an odd handful of people thinking that way.
Should the government be dissolved or change course? How surprised are you that the majority of people from all political persuasions aren't seeing it as positive? As an optimist, this will mean that things improve surely! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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the sinister ERG are pulling the strings of government ..... basically a falangist right wing extremist group disguised as a think tank and nefariously misusing tax payers money to pervert democracy from the back benches of the governments side of the house of commons |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"the sinister ERG are pulling the strings of government ..... basically a falangist right wing extremist group disguised as a think tank and nefariously misusing tax payers money to pervert democracy from the back benches of the governments side of the house of commons "
But they look so nice and friendly, and they are so in touch with the "common people" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I reckon we'll get brexit
But I reckon what the Mogganator has said is wrong 'less brexit, more corbyn to paraphase
To explain:
We crash out of the EU with not trade network to give us an saftey net. Prices go up and it co-incidess with the time period in the run up to the next GE
The part of tge brext mentality which was 'sod foreign workers, we can train our own to be nurses/social workers ect) suddenly realise there isnt a magic money tree - they either go for labour to increase the ability for migrant workers to get here, or to vote in further of heavier taxation.
The tory party goes from slitting its wrists publicly, to slitting its throat publicly, and nobody has confidence in them
Brexit will lead to corbyn getting more seats I reckon |
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"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now. "
Not sure the likes of Boris and gove want the responsibility and accountability that goes with leadership..
Bottled it once before..
As for mogg..  |
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Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The torture party are a bunch of bullshitters
Watch out Great Britain were here to shaft you all
you voted, you lost
get over it"
Ah I'll pass that on to any opposition shall I? Then you can live in your little authoritarian state.
Tell you what, there is a reason why Mogg (not that I like him as a politician) never spews shit like this, as he put it, " one day the tory party wont be in power and we will be in opposition. If this mentality of shut up we had a vote now deal with it continues, it opens it up for mainstream political action and reasoning which would lead to parliment being void."
He's right on this. You need to allow freedom of speech and expression of concerns and ideas to be passed into parliment. He even admits this must be done even if the implimentation of brexit becomes harder for it. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As I've said before if you put remainders in charge of britex ...guess what u get with there head in a different planet"
Remainders britex????
Proof read before posting otherwise it makes you look foolish.....
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"The torture party are a bunch of bullshitters
Watch out Great Britain were here to shaft you all
you voted, you lost
get over it"
I’m happy my friend it’s you that seem to get angry most days on here when you don’t like what people put I’ve heard the word bully used a lot about you why don’t you get over it
 |
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
"
I agree with you completely the only thing I don’t agree with what you say is the country is in a bit of a mess wrong
It’s in a crisis of a mess due to the torture party |
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
"
This..
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
"
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"W
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
"
Context is everything.
The common market evolved from an overwhelming desire to bind the warring countries of Europe economically, to reduce the risk of future conflict.
It developed during a Cold War, when Europe was split in half by opposing ideologies.
The capitalists "won" that conflict in the name of "freedom", i.e. freeing the people of eastern Europe from the controls of communism.
The Berlin Wall collapses and Germany wants to re-unify. France is terrified of an all-powerful and extracts a concession - to bind the economy of Germany to the rest in a single currency.
Strategically, when you consider the over-riding aims of the foundations - the coal and steel community treaties and the European Convention of Human Rights - it has evolved and adapted to meet those aims - to prevent the peoples of Europe from ever again waging indiscriminate slaughter.
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"W
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
Context is everything.
The common market evolved from an overwhelming desire to bind the warring countries of Europe economically, to reduce the risk of future conflict.
It developed during a Cold War, when Europe was split in half by opposing ideologies.
The capitalists "won" that conflict in the name of "freedom", i.e. freeing the people of eastern Europe from the controls of communism.
The Berlin Wall collapses and Germany wants to re-unify. France is terrified of an all-powerful and extracts a concession - to bind the economy of Germany to the rest in a single currency.
Strategically, when you consider the over-riding aims of the foundations - the coal and steel community treaties and the European Convention of Human Rights - it has evolved and adapted to meet those aims - to prevent the peoples of Europe from ever again waging indiscriminate slaughter.
"
It's not the Common Market anymore is what you mean then! |
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"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now. "
I've thought the same thing myself many times recently. The problem is is that I don't trust the democratic integrity of populists and I wouldn't put it past any of them to try to subvert our democracy even further.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
"
well said.  |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU."
Try reading the 'Confirmation bias' thread. At least some remainers tried. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now.
"
too dangerous a gamble when you take into account the tories long history of gerrymandering, voter disenfranchising and gagging orders for NGO's as tools to skew the democratic process in order to cling onto power for as long as they can ...they need to be completely expunged from politics as soon as possible |
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
"
But the Common Market already had the Customs Union and the Single Market is also just the Common Market actually working as originally intended when we joined. So, if the Common Market, with it's customs union and open market, were good or OK why are we leaving both when we could just leave the EU and remain in the EEA or EFTA. And, just to be clear, we were in EFTA along with Ireland, Denmark and Portugal before we joined the Common Market. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Are things changing?
Or will it be the same as always.
The post-war consensus has been built around pretty common ground - the middle ground, if you like (or middle England).
Whoever taps into the mood of the middle ground wins the election.
When people think the economy needs fixed, the middle ground moves a little to the right and ushers in the Conservatives.
When people want to see social progress, the middle ground moves a little to the left and ushers in Labour.
Does that still hold true?
In living memory, has anyone won an election from the far right or far left. No.
I think it still holds true - whoever wins the middle ground wins the election - but I'm less certain than I've ever been about the character of that patch.
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
But the Common Market already had the Customs Union and the Single Market is also just the Common Market actually working as originally intended when we joined. So, if the Common Market, with it's customs union and open market, were good or OK why are we leaving both when we could just leave the EU and remain in the EEA or EFTA. And, just to be clear, we were in EFTA along with Ireland, Denmark and Portugal before we joined the Common Market."
OK so a question.
As part of the Customs union and Single market back in the 70's when we joined, was a condition of free movement to all citizens part of it then? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I believe the expansion of the free market to include the free movement of people as well as trade evolved in the 1980s and was signed up to by the then Conservative government led by Margaret Thatcher. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I believe the expansion of the free market to include the free movement of people as well as trade evolved in the 1980s and was signed up to by the then Conservative government led by Margaret Thatcher."
it evolved hand in hand with the thatcherite ideology of the free movement of money across borders, leaving us in a position where any profit made from this countries economy is drained off abroad straight away rather than it being re-invested. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The United Kingdom itself is a union of nations.
Four different territories, with four very different histories, outlooks, cultures and ethnicities.
By comparison with the EU, power is far more centralised in the UK.
It is dominated by one ethnic group - those who identity as English/British.
Now, the logic of those arguing for the break-up of the European Union doesn't stop at the borders of the UK.
But they seem peculiarly resistant to the concept of dissolving the union that binds the UK together?
Why?
Because in the union of the UK, they are dominant and in control. In the union of the EU, they are not and want out.
Pandoras box is open. |
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
But the Common Market already had the Customs Union and the Single Market is also just the Common Market actually working as originally intended when we joined. So, if the Common Market, with it's customs union and open market, were good or OK why are we leaving both when we could just leave the EU and remain in the EEA or EFTA. And, just to be clear, we were in EFTA along with Ireland, Denmark and Portugal before we joined the Common Market.
OK so a question.
As part of the Customs union and Single market back in the 70's when we joined, was a condition of free movement to all citizens part of it then?"
Well that is easily answered by just looking up the meaning of A Common Market, which is:-
A GROUP formed by countries within a geographical area to promote duty free trade and free movement of labour and capital among its members.
So the answer is quite simply and definitely YES.
Have you never watched "Alt Fiet A Sayen Pet"?
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"Whichever way you look at it, the country is in a bit of a mess.
We seem to have no clear vision of the future.
A bit of realism about the hand we've got to play is needed.
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Almost 50 per cent of our exports are to that bloc - about 8 per cent of theirs are to the UK.
So it is obvious who has the stronger hand to play.
That is our choice to leave.
But to achieve what?
It cannot be free trade with the EU bloc because we already have that.
It must be something else.
My concern is that this whole episode is driven by what we don't want, rather than what we do.
There is an opportunity for a leader with vision and a narrative that is consensual, unifying and co-operative rather than confrontational. I don't see any around.
If we were still just in the Common Market which I believe we joined in the first place I think we would not have left it.
However the EU is not that is it.
But the Common Market already had the Customs Union and the Single Market is also just the Common Market actually working as originally intended when we joined. So, if the Common Market, with it's customs union and open market, were good or OK why are we leaving both when we could just leave the EU and remain in the EEA or EFTA. And, just to be clear, we were in EFTA along with Ireland, Denmark and Portugal before we joined the Common Market.
OK so a question.
As part of the Customs union and Single market back in the 70's when we joined, was a condition of free movement to all citizens part of it then?
"
Well that is easily answered by just looking up the meaning of A Common Market, which is:-
A GROUP formed by countries within a geographical area to promote duty free trade and free movement of labour and capital among its members.
Free movement to all citizens is not a requirement of being in the Single Market and Customs Union now. Free movement of goods, capital, labour and services is the requirement.
So the answer is quite simply that the same requirements on free movement always existed and the only change is the free movement of services which is actually very much to Britain's advantage.
Have you never watched "Alt Fiet A Sayen Pet"?
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"the sinister ERG are pulling the strings of government ..... basically a falangist right wing extremist group disguised as a think tank and nefariously misusing tax payers money to pervert democracy from the back benches of the governments side of the house of commons
But they look so nice and friendly, and they are so in touch with the "common people" "
I would say the ERG lead by Mogg is representing the views of the 52% who voted to leave the EU. |
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"
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
"
Lolololol is that meant to be some sort of joke? The only continent that has slower growth than the EU is Antarctica. Most of southern Europe has sky high unemployment levels and as the EU takes away more and more sovereignty from countries to centralise power in Brussels and imposed Austerity on struggling countries like Greece it has lead to the rise of far right and far left parties all over Europe. Rather than being a success I'd say the EU is a complete shambles. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the sinister ERG are pulling the strings of government ..... basically a falangist right wing extremist group disguised as a think tank and nefariously misusing tax payers money to pervert democracy from the back benches of the governments side of the house of commons
But they look so nice and friendly, and they are so in touch with the "common people"
I would say the ERG lead by Mogg is representing the views of the 52% who voted to leave the EU. "
you would say that, but the absolute fact is that they are a dangerous rogue organisation of right wing extremists who are attempting to pervert democracy in this country |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now.
I've thought the same thing myself many times recently. The problem is is that I don't trust the democratic integrity of populists and I wouldn't put it past any of them to try to subvert our democracy even further.
"
In what way? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now.
I've thought the same thing myself many times recently. The problem is is that I don't trust the democratic integrity of populists and I wouldn't put it past any of them to try to subvert our democracy even further.
In what way?"
gerrymandering for a start
voter disebfranchising for seconds
gagging orders on NGO's
the list of tory populist democratic subversion tactics is huge |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU."
That's been done many times already |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
That's been done many times already "
would be more productive for the brextremists to post a coherent explaination as to why they think it's benefitial to leave the EU, without resorting to wild surmise and fantastical claims, all topped off with absolute scaremongering lies. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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That's the problem with Brexit.
While we are in the EU prior the Brexit bombshell we were performing / growing one the best in the EU and now one of the least.
Inflation was very low & now it's biting
Our biggest contributing sector services may not get a decent look in post Brexit
Everything Brexit is a maybe, could be & hopefully
We've gone from knowing what we have and building on that well to not having a fucking clue what we'll now end up with but one thing is guaranteed... it will not be better or even equal to what we have now with the EU. It's totaly counterproductive for the EU to give us a deal just as good.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
sky news are report looks like there has been a brexit impact accessment leaked, and north east england looks like it would take a 16% GDP hit in the case of a "no deal" scenario.....
which brings to mind 2 questions....
1) wonder if tory brexiteers are going to blame civil servants again....
2) just as well the tories don't have many seats to defend in the north east.....
looks like northern ireland would take a 12% GDP hit.... and Scotland would take a 8.5% GDP hit.....
so... how many of those hard tory brexiteers down south do you think will ever come north of the M62 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"sky news are report looks like there has been a brexit impact accessment leaked, and north east england looks like it would take a 16% GDP hit in the case of a "no deal" scenario.....
which brings to mind 2 questions....
1) wonder if tory brexiteers are going to blame civil servants again....
2) just as well the tories don't have many seats to defend in the north east.....
looks like northern ireland would take a 12% GDP hit.... and Scotland would take a 8.5% GDP hit.....
so... how many of those hard tory brexiteers down south do you think will ever come north of the M62 "
It should be pretty clear to everyone that the tories dont give a fck for anyone but themselves,all parties should give a vote of no confidence in the goverment get them out and have another referendum |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"sky news are report looks like there has been a brexit impact accessment leaked, and north east england looks like it would take a 16% GDP hit in the case of a "no deal" scenario.....
which brings to mind 2 questions....
1) wonder if tory brexiteers are going to blame civil servants again....
2) just as well the tories don't have many seats to defend in the north east.....
looks like northern ireland would take a 12% GDP hit.... and Scotland would take a 8.5% GDP hit.....
so... how many of those hard tory brexiteers down south do you think will ever come north of the M62
It should be pretty clear to everyone that the tories dont give a fck for anyone but themselves,all parties should give a vote of no confidence in the goverment get them out and have another referendum "
Doesn't quite work like that! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"sky news are report looks like there has been a brexit impact accessment leaked, and north east england looks like it would take a 16% GDP hit in the case of a "no deal" scenario.....
which brings to mind 2 questions....
1) wonder if tory brexiteers are going to blame civil servants again....
2) just as well the tories don't have many seats to defend in the north east.....
looks like northern ireland would take a 12% GDP hit.... and Scotland would take a 8.5% GDP hit.....
so... how many of those hard tory brexiteers down south do you think will ever come north of the M62
It should be pretty clear to everyone that the tories dont give a fck for anyone but themselves,all parties should give a vote of no confidence in the goverment get them out and have another referendum "
if the champion of democracy, Gina Miller, is successful in her challenge over the legality of cash bribes to fringe political parties by minority governments in exchange for votes, then a vote of no confidence before the next general election is increasingly likely |
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"The torture party are a bunch of bullshitters
Watch out Great Britain were here to shaft you all
you voted, you lost
get over it"
Your ignorant and ill informed,you have not put forward a single argument that hasn't been taken apart.
Repeatedly. |
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All of the conservative people have negative confidence ratings in the national poll - may, Johnson and mogg, plus Gove of course. An inept bunch of fairly stupid people.
I see the point of letting them fail but it is too dangerous. The government and public should get to vote on the acceptability of the Brexit offer. If unacceptable, we revert to staying in and the government decides what to do next. It should probably resign if this happens. The extreme right prefer others to carry the can but control the country which should be stopped, where it is clear that the public don't support their extremist views. |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU."
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop. |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"
So your reply to my post about hearing some positives about what will happen in the EU in the future is more of the same old project fear crap!
It with talk like this that people said I want to leave the EU. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
We're walking away from the most successful free-trade bloc of modern times.
Lolololol is that meant to be some sort of joke? The only continent that has slower growth than the EU is Antarctica. Most of southern Europe has sky high unemployment levels and as the EU takes away more and more sovereignty from countries to centralise power in Brussels and imposed Austerity on struggling countries like Greece it has lead to the rise of far right and far left parties all over Europe. Rather than being a success I'd say the EU is a complete shambles. "
Apples and pears.
What I meant is that I cannot think of another group of 28 different countries that have succeeded in removing all barriers between them.
How each take advantage of that, or not, is the nub of your response.
Society tends to make progress when barriers between people come down, not when they go up. |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
That's been done many times already
would be more productive for the brextremists to post a coherent explaination as to why they think it's benefitial to leave the EU. "
That's been done many times already. |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
That's been done many times already
would be more productive for the brextremists to post a coherent explaination as to why they think it's benefitial to leave the EU, without resorting to wild surmise and fantastical claims, all topped off with absolute scaremongering lies. "
I haven't seen one post from a remained to say where the EU will be in 10 to 20 years time.
What new laws rules will be in place.
What will change or anything like that.
It's either you just don't know or refuse to say.! |
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"sky news are report looks like there has been a brexit impact accessment leaked, and north east england looks like it would take a 16% GDP hit in the case of a "no deal" scenario.....
which brings to mind 2 questions....
1) wonder if tory brexiteers are going to blame civil servants again....
2) just as well the tories don't have many seats to defend in the north east.....
looks like northern ireland would take a 12% GDP hit.... and Scotland would take a 8.5% GDP hit.....
so... how many of those hard tory brexiteers down south do you think will ever come north of the M62
It should be pretty clear to everyone that the tories dont give a fck for anyone but themselves,all parties should give a vote of no confidence in the goverment get them out and have another referendum
if the champion of democracy, Gina Miller, is successful in her challenge over the legality of cash bribes to fringe political parties by minority governments in exchange for votes, then a vote of no confidence before the next general election is increasingly likely "
Champion of democracy Gina Miller???? Lol, the jokes just keep coming on this thread
Gina Miller is NOT a champion of democracy, she despises democracy! She was so against the biggest democratic vote this country has ever seen, which was the 17.4 million vote to leave the EU, she has now taken it upon herself to make it her own personal mission to reverse this democratic decision that the country has taken. She will do whatever it takes to sabotage this democratic decision to leave the EU. She took the government to the UK supreme court under the guise of 'democracy' so that Parliament could have a vote on triggering article 50, she won her case and got what she wanted, so Parliament had a vote on it, but she didn't really get what she wanted because Parliament still voted to trigger article 50 (she wanted them to vote against triggering it).
She gave the game away when she appeared on BBC question time recently when she said "I don't trust parliament to make the right decision, so now I want the people to have another vote". There it is the mask well and truly slipped, I'm sure she thought having won her case parliament wouldn't vote to trigger article 50, because Parliament didn't vote the way she wanted now she doesn't 'trust' Parliament anymore. She is an absolute disgrace and she has to be one of the most anti democratic individuals currently living in the UK. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
gina miller comprehensively schools the government on the subject of democracy ... and generoiusly educates them for free .... she certainly handed Dom Rabs arse to him repeatedly on question time recently .... but then he is an idiotic simpleton to be fair |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop."
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket. |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket. "
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll. |
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The numbers are a reflection of what a mess it is and the reality of what it means to the economy and people's lives as the hit comes to GDP..
As with those who voted to leave also now realising it was the wrong option..
The clamour to ditch the whole sorry idea or to have another vote when the final deal is known will become too loud and widespread for those elected to serve dare ignore..
|
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
I think you will find he’s talking about now not then latest polls are 60-40 to now remain
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll."
|
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll."
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively "
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Even conservatives now have a tiny minority who think Brexit is going well. Voters for other parties have even fewer people who think they're doing well. Within months it's feasible that less than 10% of conservatives will say it's positive -it's almost just an odd handful of people thinking that way.
Should the government be dissolved or change course? How surprised are you that the majority of people from all political persuasions aren't seeing it as positive? As an optimist, this will mean that things improve surely!"
I would prefer leaving the eu, but, ( and i thougjt this during the referendum ..) the government and politicians it comprises, just aren't up to scratch for the job against the eu as it is. |
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"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now.
I've thought the same thing myself many times recently. The problem is is that I don't trust the democratic integrity of populists and I wouldn't put it past any of them to try to subvert our democracy even further.
In what way?
gerrymandering for a start
voter disebfranchising for seconds
gagging orders on NGO's
the list of tory populist democratic subversion tactics is huge"
I know we don't see eye to eye on politics but it's not just Tory or right wing populists that are the problem. Anyone offering simplistic solutions to complex problems, whether from the right or left, is the problem. You're good at pointing out the faults on the right, many of which I agree with you, but you need to also open your eyes to the populist and simplistic solutions offered from the left.
|
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop."
It wasn't an overall majority it was a simply majority of those that voted. An overall majority would be 50% +1 of all those who could have voted. If you're going to claim something at least get it right. |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU."
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"We need a change in leadership. As horrible as it may seem the extreme right need to be in control now. Then IF it goes horribly wrong they pick up the tab. Otherwise they will only blame the weak leadership we have now.
I've thought the same thing myself many times recently. The problem is is that I don't trust the democratic integrity of populists and I wouldn't put it past any of them to try to subvert our democracy even further.
In what way?
gerrymandering for a start
voter disebfranchising for seconds
gagging orders on NGO's
the list of tory populist democratic subversion tactics is huge
I know we don't see eye to eye on politics but it's not just Tory or right wing populists that are the problem. Anyone offering simplistic solutions to complex problems, whether from the right or left, is the problem. You're good at pointing out the faults on the right, many of which I agree with you, but you need to also open your eyes to the populist and simplistic solutions offered from the left.
"
i don't need to do anything you attempt to dictate chap |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds."
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
easy to say ... but it's understandably impossible for decent, upstanding and level thinking people to get behind the incompetent rabble of idiot cockwombles that are the tory party, especially those in cabinet |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds.
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!"
how can anyone with any sense
We are all going to be worse off and it will get worse we have a government that’s clueless when would anyone in there right mind get behind the result I ask you |
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Has not affected our business in fact we on up and up so Happy days.......guess i can't wait for all these forecasts to kick in ..all negative doom and gloom we get out head down work hard and get on with it ..all talk no facts |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds.
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!"
I have never put my country down ever. It's the plastic patriots like you who are currently putting this country down just so you can wave your plastic flags and pretend that you actually care about the UK and wealth of its people. You've actually taken the best opportunity to make your country weaker, poorer and less influential than it had been for 70 years, voted for it and still support it even though you know it's going to make everyone worse off. Don't try and play the good patriot card it simply doesn't fit people like you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Has not affected our business in fact we on up and up so Happy days.......guess i can't wait for all these forecasts to kick in ..all negative doom and gloom we get out head down work hard and get on with it ..all talk no facts "
yep, you have provided anecdotal evidence (all talk) in the stead of facts .... come back to the thread when you have something concrete in the way of evidence |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
It's not just brexit but the effects of it. There is a massive amount of infrastructure to be put in place which takes a huge amount of time. We are ending one "system" and need to "close it down" and starting a "new system". Take customs/security a whole new system has got to be put in place, tried and tested and any glitches sorted. People have got to be recruited trained and of course any delays in processing vehicles will lead to traffic chaos at the ports so parking etc needs sorting. That's just one issue who knows how many more obstacles need overcoming? |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds.
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!
I have never put my country down ever. It's the plastic patriots like you who are currently putting this country down just so you can wave your plastic flags and pretend that you actually care about the UK and wealth of its people. You've actually taken the best opportunity to make your country weaker, poorer and less influential than it had been for 70 years, voted for it and still support it even though you know it's going to make everyone worse off. Don't try and play the good patriot card it simply doesn't fit people like you."
Again putting your country down.
You just can't help yourself can you.
Get behind the country and stop whinging that you didn't get your way! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
this country has gone to shit because of far right extremist ideology ... anyone with a modicum of a back bone is justified and to be applauded for ramming this fact down the throats of the dictatorial supporters of the far right who have frothed up in recent years |
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Why the fuck should anyone who thinks this is a bad decision get behind it?
swivel eyed loons and others on the leave side certainly didn't get behind it, before the referendum..
phrases like 'get behind it' are banal sound bites..
in case those of you who come out regularly with such pathetic cliches as the above have missed it or don't quite understand it the future prosperity of the country is shared by all on both sides..
there has never been anyone saying they do not want the country to do well, the difference and its not feckin rocket science is the direction of travel and how such a move to leave will impact that..
for the very hard of hearing or slow to uptake such things, no one wants the country to do badly..
continually saying it adds nothing and only indicates a lack of understanding of the fundamental opposing view or an arrogance to poo poo that view by stating such crap as 'get behind it' blah blah.. |
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Love the one view i must be right people on here sometimes ...no negative from me ....voted out find ya gonads....get on with it ...all the moaning won't change the vote now....ps that said i love some banter..but not the insults....love u all x |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds.
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!
I have never put my country down ever. It's the plastic patriots like you who are currently putting this country down just so you can wave your plastic flags and pretend that you actually care about the UK and wealth of its people. You've actually taken the best opportunity to make your country weaker, poorer and less influential than it had been for 70 years, voted for it and still support it even though you know it's going to make everyone worse off. Don't try and play the good patriot card it simply doesn't fit people like you.
Again putting your country down.
You just can't help yourself can you.
Get behind the country and stop whinging that you didn't get your way!"
When push comes to shove, all the leave lot can offer is jingoistic bolloxs |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll."
Keep up at the back!
The public is now significantly more informed now in terms of what the government forced by extremist right wing nutjobs is doing, or failing to do, alongside the likely Brexit offer that the EU and UK will negotiate. It's about intelligence and not about the ignorance.
A national representational analysis, weighted to show the very clear decisions that all political persuasions have upon the current status. It's about the sovereignty of the people and their political representatives in action.  |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds.
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!
I have never put my country down ever. It's the plastic patriots like you who are currently putting this country down just so you can wave your plastic flags and pretend that you actually care about the UK and wealth of its people. You've actually taken the best opportunity to make your country weaker, poorer and less influential than it had been for 70 years, voted for it and still support it even though you know it's going to make everyone worse off. Don't try and play the good patriot card it simply doesn't fit people like you.
Again putting your country down.
You just can't help yourself can you.
Get behind the country and stop whinging that you didn't get your way!"
Follow the majority of the population and reject any offer that is worse than staying put - be patriotic,, get behind your country for the best outcome for he UK. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. "
It's dependent upon exit terms which appear to clarify that the deal should probably be rejected - and it's not rocket science to work it out. There should be a vote on offer rejection or acceptance. We can't legislate against turkeys, which will vote for Christmas but at least we don't have to be rocket scientists |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. "
this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic. "
Some horses like being blinkered |
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"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU.
You are in a minority position now, where even conservative party supporters view it as dreadful and their top people have negative approval scores.
There was the past position for remaining but we're in a different place as a country today. We have no faith anywhere in the governments position and likely deal. There's just a handful of diee-hards wanting to continue doing the same things, without reflection, or intelligent scrutiny of their options from this precise moment into the future.
Most would say that an obstinate refusal to calibrate progress and determine the most successful plan is what would highlight stupidity.
We need to do what is right for the majority of the country, a suicidal mission should be halted.
"We need to do what is right for the majority of the country"
you are aware, the overall majority of the country voted to leave the EU
no ifs, no buts, no pissy panties
leave full stop.
You are aware that the majority of the country have decided that the Brexit is something that they have no confidence in.
We should do the right thing, as assessed at each point in our evolution. It's imbecilic to insist on doing something that is the wrong choice, even if your ideology binds you to it, like a straight jacket.
No a majority of the country voted to leave the EU. 17.4 million people to be precise. Your claim is based on a relatively small opinion poll.
Latest polls are 60-40 people want to remain turned round massively
Opinion polls can be wrong or manipulated.
Votes in the ballot box are what counts and in this instance 17.4 million votes were for leaving the EU.
19 months ago. We don't know for sure what people think now but the poles suggest that more than 2 in 50 have changed their minds.
Suggest only.
The referendum result is a fact.
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!
I have never put my country down ever. It's the plastic patriots like you who are currently putting this country down just so you can wave your plastic flags and pretend that you actually care about the UK and wealth of its people. You've actually taken the best opportunity to make your country weaker, poorer and less influential than it had been for 70 years, voted for it and still support it even though you know it's going to make everyone worse off. Don't try and play the good patriot card it simply doesn't fit people like you.
Again putting your country down.
You just can't help yourself can you.
Get behind the country and stop whinging that you didn't get your way!"
You're the one putting your country down mate. I'm the one backing a good, bright and prosperous future for it. I'm the one who's already behind my country and fighting for it. Your the one who's risking everyone's future on a few jingoistic phrased like 'take back control'. How can you possibly believe that having regularity alignment with the EU while at same time removing all control we currently have on what those regulations are that we've already agreed to be aligned to is possibly getting behind your country simply beggars belief.
'Take back Control'? What control? We've have already agreed to do as we're told by the EU and have no say what so ever.
You sold your peoples financial future down the river in June 2016 and then in December 2017 your hapless negotiators sold our sovereignty down the river to. Yea, you guys are really backing your country. Three cheers and horrah to you. With patriots like you around we won't have amy enemies in the world; you guys have done their job for them.
Or you could try actually backing your country rather than just saying your backing it. There's a thought. |
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"Well said "
Another idiot who seems to think that making everyone in their country poorer and giving control of our regulations to the EU while removing any control and sat we currently have over making them is some how 'backing their country'.
And yes, I'm calling you an idiot. Not because you backed BREXIT but because your backing the idiotic comments of the person above who seems to think that not wanting to see GDP decrease by 16% and not wanting to hand control of our regulations to the EU with out any future say in what those controls are is some how not backing our country.
|
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic. "
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome. "
It takes all sorts. The extremist caricature puppet Centaur that you describe doesn't seem to appear here, as everyone appears to present Cogent and reasoned argument based upon the current position and the governments negotiation outcome that is expected - and what that would mean for the UK.
Strawman arguments can be created but they are laughable and could be treated by many with the contempt that they'd feel they deserve. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome. "
I don't thing there's many if any remainers who are so committed to the EU that they'd say we should be in it regardless. You don't hear remainers saying things like 'it will be painful but worth it', 'it will be hard work but, in the end, we may be better off'. It's leavers and BREXITers who say that sort of stuff. Remainers believe that we're better of in the EU now, in the short term, medium term and long term. We're not saying anyone has to suffer now for some unknown gain in the furniture, only leavers and BREXITers talk like that. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome.
I don't thing there's many if any remainers who are so committed to the EU that they'd say we should be in it regardless. You don't hear remainers saying things like 'it will be painful but worth it', 'it will be hard work but, in the end, we may be better off'. It's leavers and BREXITers who say that sort of stuff. Remainers believe that we're better of in the EU now, in the short term, medium term and long term. We're not saying anyone has to suffer now for some unknown gain in the furniture, only leavers and BREXITers talk like that."
The status quo from the EU just simply isn't an option. It's extremely disingenuous of you or any other remainer to suggest we can keep the status quo. A leaked report from within the EU a couple of months ago showed the EU is set to add a number of Eastern European Balkan countries by the year 2025. Martin Shultz who has just done a deal with Merkel to form a coalition in Germany said recently that the EU should soon become a full blown Federal United States of Europe and any country that wants to be in the EU by 2025 should be forced to adopt the Euro as it's currency. The EU is always moving towards its goal of 'ever closer union' it is like a religion to the zealots in Brussels. The status quo is not an option and never has been. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome.
I don't thing there's many if any remainers who are so committed to the EU that they'd say we should be in it regardless. You don't hear remainers saying things like 'it will be painful but worth it', 'it will be hard work but, in the end, we may be better off'. It's leavers and BREXITers who say that sort of stuff. Remainers believe that we're better of in the EU now, in the short term, medium term and long term. We're not saying anyone has to suffer now for some unknown gain in the furniture, only leavers and BREXITers talk like that.
The status quo from the EU just simply isn't an option. It's extremely disingenuous of you or any other remainer to suggest we can keep the status quo. A leaked report from within the EU a couple of months ago showed the EU is set to add a number of Eastern European Balkan countries by the year 2025. Martin Shultz who has just done a deal with Merkel to form a coalition in Germany said recently that the EU should soon become a full blown Federal United States of Europe and any country that wants to be in the EU by 2025 should be forced to adopt the Euro as it's currency. The EU is always moving towards its goal of 'ever closer union' it is like a religion to the zealots in Brussels. The status quo is not an option and never has been. "
Lots of politicians have argued for a United States of Europe since 1945 but it hasn't happened yet and probably never will. More likely is that countries in the Euro Zone will continue to get ever closer and those outside it will continue pretty much as they are now. Personally I have no problem with other countries from the Balkans joining when they meet the democratic and economic requirements, provided adequate immigration controls are in place for the initial transition period but, if we didn't want them we could always veto their entry.
Today your saying that it's unrealistic to expect the EU to keep the same and maintain the Status quo but on other threads you argue that the EU is inflexible and can't change. Which is it? Is the EU inflexible and unable to change or not?
Finally you haven't addressed any of the points I've made with regard to non existent EU zealots and very real and present BREXIT zealots. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome.
I don't thing there's many if any remainers who are so committed to the EU that they'd say we should be in it regardless. You don't hear remainers saying things like 'it will be painful but worth it', 'it will be hard work but, in the end, we may be better off'. It's leavers and BREXITers who say that sort of stuff. Remainers believe that we're better of in the EU now, in the short term, medium term and long term. We're not saying anyone has to suffer now for some unknown gain in the furniture, only leavers and BREXITers talk like that.
The status quo from the EU just simply isn't an option. It's extremely disingenuous of you or any other remainer to suggest we can keep the status quo. A leaked report from within the EU a couple of months ago showed the EU is set to add a number of Eastern European Balkan countries by the year 2025. Martin Shultz who has just done a deal with Merkel to form a coalition in Germany said recently that the EU should soon become a full blown Federal United States of Europe and any country that wants to be in the EU by 2025 should be forced to adopt the Euro as it's currency. The EU is always moving towards its goal of 'ever closer union' it is like a religion to the zealots in Brussels. The status quo is not an option and never has been.
Lots of politicians have argued for a United States of Europe since 1945 but it hasn't happened yet and probably never will. More likely is that countries in the Euro Zone will continue to get ever closer and those outside it will continue pretty much as they are now. Personally I have no problem with other countries from the Balkans joining when they meet the democratic and economic requirements, provided adequate immigration controls are in place for the initial transition period but, if we didn't want them we could always veto their entry.
Today your saying that it's unrealistic to expect the EU to keep the same and maintain the Status quo but on other threads you argue that the EU is inflexible and can't change. Which is it? Is the EU inflexible and unable to change or not?
Finally you haven't addressed any of the points I've made with regard to non existent EU zealots and very real and present BREXIT zealots. "
Of course the EU is always moving towards its goal of ever closer union you only have to look at what has happened over the last 40 years to see that. The EU has changed beyond all recognition to what we joined in the 1970's and not in a good way. If it had stayed a simple common market with a handful of countries basically a deal based solely on trade like what we joined in the 1970's then I don't think people would have a problem with it. The problem is it has morphed into this monstrous political union that we see today it has gone far beyond being a trade deal and people don't want the political side of the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I have to say it as a leaver I think brexit is getting too complicated think we should give up and stay sometimes it's better the devil you know and see if we can get a better deal staying in rather than leave x |
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"I have to say it as a leaver I think brexit is getting too complicated think we should give up and stay sometimes it's better the devil you know and see if we can get a better deal staying in rather than leave x"
That's a good point.
And if we were to reject the deal that the UK negotiates, it's not as if we don't have choice about what we do in future, as we retain the power.
Inside the EU we know our trading terms and have influence upon how the EU changes. We could leave at any point in the future too, if we don't like it.
The UK should progress tactically, taking the right steps one at a time, that are the best. It's more than England, as the keeping of the Good Friday agreement terms for any Brexit decisions show. I think the UK push was as if it had been just England and there wasn't anything complicated about it all, in the slightest. People now understand far better. We just have to do what is right, one step at a time. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I have to say it as a leaver I think brexit is getting too complicated think we should give up and stay sometimes it's better the devil you know and see if we can get a better deal staying in rather than leave x"
Its an arguement that I've come round to. We all have to do the best for our Country and staying in and fighting our corner is now the best option. And given the political turmoil in places in mainland Europe, we could and should have been a main player in the EU.
However, politicians have to identify and address the problems and thoughts that made over 17 million people want out. I kow that the less informed will just chuck the race card into the ring but problems went far wider and deeper than that. |
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Just read something that last year that food went rotting in farmers fields due to lack of EU workers and they lost thousands of pounds. If anyone thinks this is good for the British economy then they want there heads testing.
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome.
I don't thing there's many if any remainers who are so committed to the EU that they'd say we should be in it regardless. You don't hear remainers saying things like 'it will be painful but worth it', 'it will be hard work but, in the end, we may be better off'. It's leavers and BREXITers who say that sort of stuff. Remainers believe that we're better of in the EU now, in the short term, medium term and long term. We're not saying anyone has to suffer now for some unknown gain in the furniture, only leavers and BREXITers talk like that.
The status quo from the EU just simply isn't an option. It's extremely disingenuous of you or any other remainer to suggest we can keep the status quo. A leaked report from within the EU a couple of months ago showed the EU is set to add a number of Eastern European Balkan countries by the year 2025. Martin Shultz who has just done a deal with Merkel to form a coalition in Germany said recently that the EU should soon become a full blown Federal United States of Europe and any country that wants to be in the EU by 2025 should be forced to adopt the Euro as it's currency. The EU is always moving towards its goal of 'ever closer union' it is like a religion to the zealots in Brussels. The status quo is not an option and never has been.
Lots of politicians have argued for a United States of Europe since 1945 but it hasn't happened yet and probably never will. More likely is that countries in the Euro Zone will continue to get ever closer and those outside it will continue pretty much as they are now. Personally I have no problem with other countries from the Balkans joining when they meet the democratic and economic requirements, provided adequate immigration controls are in place for the initial transition period but, if we didn't want them we could always veto their entry.
Today your saying that it's unrealistic to expect the EU to keep the same and maintain the Status quo but on other threads you argue that the EU is inflexible and can't change. Which is it? Is the EU inflexible and unable to change or not?
Finally you haven't addressed any of the points I've made with regard to non existent EU zealots and very real and present BREXIT zealots.
Of course the EU is always moving towards its goal of ever closer union you only have to look at what has happened over the last 40 years to see that. The EU has changed beyond all recognition to what we joined in the 1970's and not in a good way. If it had stayed a simple common market with a handful of countries basically a deal based solely on trade like what we joined in the 1970's then I don't think people would have a problem with it. The problem is it has morphed into this monstrous political union that we see today it has gone far beyond being a trade deal and people don't want the political side of the EU. "
In 1973 we joined the European Common Market. According definitions accepted by the WTO a common market (as opposed to a free trade area) has a common external tariff and allows for labour mobility and common economic policies among the participating nations. A common market has the same features as a customs union, but, in addition, factors of production (labour, capital and technology) are mobile among members. Restrictions on immigration and cross-border investment are also abolished.
The European Common Market, as any common market, was always more than just a free trade area. It was always a customs union and an open and free moving trading area. To argue otherwise is simply to be in denial of the facts. |
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"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome. "
Anyone who says whatever the cost is either being hyperbolic or has a deep probablybnon economic reason ...
But I have never heard anyone say that about the EU. And none of what you described is even close to being on the table. Or ever was as part of the Vote. But the varying degrees of brexit area are.
However it’s increasingly sounding like your reasons for voting leave was not to leave the Eu as it stands today. But what it may become. |
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By *athy1Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome.
Anyone who says whatever the cost is either being hyperbolic or has a deep probablybnon economic reason ...
But I have never heard anyone say that about the EU. And none of what you described is even close to being on the table. Or ever was as part of the Vote. But the varying degrees of brexit area are.
However it’s increasingly sounding like your reasons for voting leave was not to leave the Eu as it stands today. But what it may become. "
It’s about opinions the same as it is with the goverment some want in some want out
The debate will go on for many years some will be happy some will be dissspointed and anoid
But all this crap about this is right and this is wrong no one no’s
So you have to respect peoples opions leavers or remainers
We voted remain and will stay that way whatever the result because that’s our choice and what we think will be best
But that’s just our view |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I voted to remain and still believe I made the right decision for me. However the vote said Leave and I absolutely totally accept that, but it was very close so the wrangling will go on ad infinitum, that's politics for you. If one day there is another referendum because the outcome is perceived to be so shit then I would welcome that but happy if there isn't. Just somebody get on with it and get some decisions done Please.......
The thing is people didn't vote for a wonderful Britain with 2% annual growth as a given, so the argument we'll be worse off is over ridden by peoples concern on immigration, they voted for control of our borders back which I can understand.
However I think that is a mirage. The closeness of the vote meant we voted for a fudge. If it had been more decisive we would be entitled to Leave with a bang not a whimper. So a fudge it is. Deal with it Britain. It's what we voted for. |
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By *athy1Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I voted to remain and still believe I made the right decision for me. However the vote said Leave and I absolutely totally accept that, but it was very close so the wrangling will go on ad infinitum, that's politics for you. If one day there is another referendum because the outcome is perceived to be so shit then I would welcome that but happy if there isn't. Just somebody get on with it and get some decisions done Please.......
The thing is people didn't vote for a wonderful Britain with 2% annual growth as a given, so the argument we'll be worse off is over ridden by peoples concern on immigration, they voted for control of our borders back which I can understand.
However I think that is a mirage. The closeness of the vote meant we voted for a fudge. If it had been more decisive we would be entitled to Leave with a bang not a whimper. So a fudge it is. Deal with it Britain. It's what we voted for."
Yes you right couldent agree more
The main problem is the goverment who ferls safe under there control cause we don’t they have no idea half want one thing and the other half want the other it’s like the uk split from the top to the bottom |
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"I voted to remain and still believe I made the right decision for me. However the vote said Leave and I absolutely totally accept that, but it was very close so the wrangling will go on ad infinitum, that's politics for you. If one day there is another referendum because the outcome is perceived to be so shit then I would welcome that but happy if there isn't. Just somebody get on with it and get some decisions done Please.......
The thing is people didn't vote for a wonderful Britain with 2% annual growth as a given, so the argument we'll be worse off is over ridden by peoples concern on immigration, they voted for control of our borders back which I can understand.
However I think that is a mirage. The closeness of the vote meant we voted for a fudge. If it had been more decisive we would be entitled to Leave with a bang not a whimper. So a fudge it is. Deal with it Britain. It's what we voted for.
Yes you right couldent agree more
The main problem is the goverment who ferls safe under there control cause we don’t they have no idea half want one thing and the other half want the other it’s like the uk split from the top to the bottom "
i suspect very few people voted for a fudge. However the poorly constructed referendum rules, and the fast and loose campaigning, meant it will be difficult for even a competent government to create a balance. It’s a lot worse if those in control are pandering to the extreme views and incapable of creating a cooperative environement where negotiations actually happen ... |
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Whatever your own reasons for having voted one way, we are now in February 2018, with a job that should be being done and will result in a deal that the UK can accept or reject. Both yes or no are completely acceptable answers. What happens after that decision is up to the decision taken. Rejecting a deal that is bad for all of the UK, would of course be the only intelligent choice and vice versa.
There's little point calculating the permutations after that point, as just getting to finish a deal offered is a massive job and a half, based on current momentum.
We can guess what the deal may be but certain bits are fixed, including an open border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, which means some of the UK is still in the customs union. Every right minded person in your country can now just focus on putting the UK first, getting behind the country and rejecting or taking the deal to come. The past has gone and whilst not forgetting it, just focus on this decision only. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Post Brexit is no different from before the referendum.
Constant posts on here of project fear!
I would actually like to see the remainers post some positives about staying in the EU and what would happen in the next 10 to 20 years if still in the EU."
Actually, there's a whole thread where several remainers managed to contribute to.
All leavers failed.
Fancy giving it a go? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"The best outcome is that we stay in the EU.
Disagree. I see that as the absolute worst outcome. this suggests being out of the Eu is worth it whatever the cost. Which I can’t fathom. Sure, some people see some versions of bexit being better than being in, but it seems a bit absolute that of a scale of all possibilities being in the Eu is the most pessimistic.
Likewise some people want to remain in the EU whatever the cost, they would hand all of our sovereignty over on a plate to the EU if it meant they could stay in. They'd accept all EU rules, be willing to lose complete control of our borders and even join us upto the Euro if it meant they could stay in their precious union. Can you fathom that? Given the referendum result and how divisive the EU has become in this country staying in now would be the worst possible outcome.
I don't thing there's many if any remainers who are so committed to the EU that they'd say we should be in it regardless. You don't hear remainers saying things like 'it will be painful but worth it', 'it will be hard work but, in the end, we may be better off'. It's leavers and BREXITers who say that sort of stuff. Remainers believe that we're better of in the EU now, in the short term, medium term and long term. We're not saying anyone has to suffer now for some unknown gain in the furniture, only leavers and BREXITers talk like that.
The status quo from the EU just simply isn't an option. It's extremely disingenuous of you or any other remainer to suggest we can keep the status quo. A leaked report from within the EU a couple of months ago showed the EU is set to add a number of Eastern European Balkan countries by the year 2025. Martin Shultz who has just done a deal with Merkel to form a coalition in Germany said recently that the EU should soon become a full blown Federal United States of Europe and any country that wants to be in the EU by 2025 should be forced to adopt the Euro as it's currency. The EU is always moving towards its goal of 'ever closer union' it is like a religion to the zealots in Brussels. The status quo is not an option and never has been.
Lots of politicians have argued for a United States of Europe since 1945 but it hasn't happened yet and probably never will. More likely is that countries in the Euro Zone will continue to get ever closer and those outside it will continue pretty much as they are now. Personally I have no problem with other countries from the Balkans joining when they meet the democratic and economic requirements, provided adequate immigration controls are in place for the initial transition period but, if we didn't want them we could always veto their entry.
Today your saying that it's unrealistic to expect the EU to keep the same and maintain the Status quo but on other threads you argue that the EU is inflexible and can't change. Which is it? Is the EU inflexible and unable to change or not?
Finally you haven't addressed any of the points I've made with regard to non existent EU zealots and very real and present BREXIT zealots.
Of course the EU is always moving towards its goal of ever closer union you only have to look at what has happened over the last 40 years to see that. The EU has changed beyond all recognition to what we joined in the 1970's and not in a good way. If it had stayed a simple common market with a handful of countries basically a deal based solely on trade like what we joined in the 1970's then I don't think people would have a problem with it. The problem is it has morphed into this monstrous political union that we see today it has gone far beyond being a trade deal and people don't want the political side of the EU. "
Then what's wrong with EFTA?
You do know that any trade deal that we make will limit the next one don't you? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
Try getting behind the result and support your country instead of putting it down at any opportunity you can!"
I am perfectly able to accept and respect the fact that those who voted to leave believe that it was the best decision for the country and themselves.
However, this referendum result came after years of agitation.
Is it not possible for leavers to,respect the fact that remain voters also had the best interests of this country in mind and that they are equally entitled to continue to back their position? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Has not affected our business in fact we on up and up so Happy days.......guess i can't wait for all these forecasts to kick in ..all negative doom and gloom we get out head down work hard and get on with it ..all talk no facts "
There was an entire thread where Brexit supporters were denying that the price of food or holidays had risen since the vote based on what they or their relatives had experienced.
The reality for the country was and is very, very different.
There is an entire cognitive bias thread which leavers have been studiously ignoring.
Care to give it a go?
https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/706879 |
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"Every single year food goes up same as holidays utility's insurance everything goes up every year you can't blame every rise on brexit "
true. But CPI has gone up massively.
By the same thread, not everything can be blamed on the Eu. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The reason why confidence is low is probably due to the way the whole brexit negotiations are going.
It is clear the Cameron government didn't have a plan for leave. It's also clear leave didn't have a plan other than win the referendum.
Here we are with just over a year to leave and there is no plan agreed! Why is this so? "We don't want to show our hand" - the poker players state. Why? Ok we had no negotiators so it takes time to recruit. Why trigger A50 when we did - we didn't have a plan! A50 was written by a Brit and it wasn't written to help the leaving party - quite the opposite. So almost halfway through its a mess. If this is the first part God only knows what the 2nd part is going to be like? "Could organise a piss up in a brewery" |
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It's beyond a joke now that the UK aren't even saying what they want. So as the days whittle away, there's ever less time to realistically hit the targets to get an offer from the EU that we can reject or accept.
UK has until October to have the EU agree a deal amongst themselves. We've not even told them yet what we want!
UK then has until December to get UK government agreement.
We're currently in February and there's no clear decision on how the UK will keep the Good Friday Agreement valid |
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"It's beyond a joke now that the UK aren't even saying what they want. So as the days whittle away, there's ever less time to realistically hit the targets to get an offer from the EU that we can reject or accept.
UK has until October to have the EU agree a deal amongst themselves. We've not even told them yet what we want!
UK then has until December to get UK government agreement.
We're currently in February and there's no clear decision on how the UK will keep the Good Friday Agreement valid "
a combination of arrogance, incompetence and or a 'leader' trying to herd cats where some want to go one way, some another way and the rest don't know..
fudge of the highest order and all meant to be in the Nation's best interests..
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It should be obvious to anyone that the May government has no idea what theyre doing. Even if the cover story of not showing their hand in phase 1 was true (it wasnt) then the results of the first phase (Tory capitulation) should show that it isnt effective and needs to be changed for phase 2.
But the Tories are doing the exact same thing and are going to get the exact same result. The EU will get their way on what matters to them, they might throw a few crumbs Mays way and that will be that. |
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"It should be obvious to anyone that the May government has no idea what theyre doing. Even if the cover story of not showing their hand in phase 1 was true (it wasnt) then the results of the first phase (Tory capitulation) should show that it isnt effective and needs to be changed for phase 2.
But the Tories are doing the exact same thing and are going to get the exact same result. The EU will get their way on what matters to them, they might throw a few crumbs Mays way and that will be that."
I really feel that May's government is so obsessed with itself, as well as incompetent, that they are not particularly aware of how appalling that they are.
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
I not optimistic about Brexit, I do not believe 27 countries will sign in positive consensus. I do not believe Parliament will agree to any final deal as it will never be good enough. Just as May is being pushed by Johnson, Barnier is being pushed by Junker. What we saw early on was an absolute reaction by EU officials that we were to be punished, this softened when Merkel and a few other heads put economies on the table. Harder lines and punishment rhetoric has then slowly increased as; they believe they can afford the financial hit, they have contingency plans (Fankfurt stock exchange), they will get good negotiating terms or Brexit will be voted out.
I voted remain and understood the consequences to my vote. What I am seeing though are media reports on election races when there are no elections, votes of no confidence that gain no traction, no ministers willing to say that coming out of customs and single market weren't part of policy from the start.
I can only see one of three things happening. We crash out to WTO, we get a lesser deal and parliament approves it or it is that bad the deal goes to referendum. I do not see us staying in the EU as the referendum has been upheld in courts so many times.
Re. Brexit and Labour, in my honest opinion, it's just a straw man atm. There's clear positions on domestic policy but none on Brexit. There is a woeful lack of clarity about it and what is wanted from it. I could not tell you who will be on Corbyn's front bench from one week to the next, and those that are on it present like they are in a school debate team. Much as they are in opposition, the real opposition to the Tories come from within and those who'd vote with Labour.
What is being missed is the EU 27 have and apparent 'one voice' through Barnier and whether Barnier speaks for the full 27 or not, this is the impression we get. Merkel, the most powerful political in the world, after making massive concessions has just been able to form a Govt after 3 months being out. Yet the Tories are "split", in one of the most important decisions to face the country, continent possibly the globe? You'd think eh? |
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"Whatever happens we’re fucked soft hard squidgy
Brexit the torture party is split the labour goverment is chaos
And most important the country is split
Non repairable "
There's one of the.options -
The deal offered is rejected by parliament. The government gets the public to confirm their acceptance of the rejection. The UK rejects the offer, after both internal rejections and notifies EUof intention to remain.
It keeps all options open for future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Even conservatives now have a tiny minority who think Brexit is going well. Voters for other parties have even fewer people who think they're doing well. Within months it's feasible that less than 10% of conservatives will say it's positive -it's almost just an odd handful of people thinking that way.
Your wrong. It's going and soon we will be gone
Should the government be dissolved or change course? How surprised are you that the majority of people from all political persuasions aren't seeing it as positive? As an optimist, this will mean that things improve surely!"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now ! |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now !"
I just don’t understand this standpoint.
“I want out, I don’t care about negotiation”.
Just makes no sense.
So if we were out tomorrow, but a condition of that was, hypothetically, that your income was reduced by 50%, that would be ok with you? You don’t want negotiation, you just want out still?
-Matt |
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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago
Wiltshire and London |
"I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now !"
So you think it's not going well because there's negotiation (for want of a better word)? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now !
I just don’t understand this standpoint.
“I want out, I don’t care about negotiation”.
Just makes no sense.
So if we were out tomorrow, but a condition of that was, hypothetically, that your income was reduced by 50%, that would be ok with you? You don’t want negotiation, you just want out still?
-Matt"
I wouldn't like it !
But it's a small price for independence !
Many country's have to go to war to get Freedom !
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now !
So you think it's not going well because there's negotiation (for want of a better word)?"
Correct ! |
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"I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now !"
Were you just thinking that a vote would happen and that suddenly everything would be different, with a land flowing with milk and honey? That customs would suddenly start, people having been recruited by miracle, customs tariffs would be the best ever but only for the UK, planes would still be able to fly through Europe/you'd be fine with air traffic halted, the Northern Ireland/Irish Republic border situation would become something that could be forgotten about ... no customs or other issues there ... not to mention immigration checks that would just not happen etc etc?
The UK decided to have an advisory referendum, the PM resigned and a new one issued Article 50 prior to having much clue of a plan to exit. Not to mention that a lot of UK legislation has to be passed by the UK lower and upper houses (there's been next to no laws passed still, even though the UK is just a few weeks away) to enable Brexit.
The fairy couldn't just wave a magic wand and the clock would be turned back several decades, to a time when the UK was the mythical best thing since sliced bread, outside of the EU.
Negotiations are all, if any country wishes to interact with others - and especially so, if it wants to have terms that are agreed by all sides. It's the way of the world. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"I voted out because I wanted out !
I wasn't fussed about negotiation !
I suspect I'm not alone !
So no it isn't going well !
We are still in !
But we are been led by a leader who voted remain !
Even Cameron admitted that was an untenable Position !
Priti Patel Now !
Were you just thinking that a vote would happen and that suddenly everything would be different, with a land flowing with milk and honey? That customs would suddenly start, people having been recruited by miracle, customs tariffs would be the best ever but only for the UK, planes would still be able to fly through Europe/you'd be fine with air traffic halted, the Northern Ireland/Irish Republic border situation would become something that could be forgotten about ... no customs or other issues there ... not to mention immigration checks that would just not happen etc etc?
The UK decided to have an advisory referendum, the PM resigned and a new one issued Article 50 prior to having much clue of a plan to exit. Not to mention that a lot of UK legislation has to be passed by the UK lower and upper houses (there's been next to no laws passed still, even though the UK is just a few weeks away) to enable Brexit.
The fairy couldn't just wave a magic wand and the clock would be turned back several decades, to a time when the UK was the mythical best thing since sliced bread, outside of the EU.
Negotiations are all, if any country wishes to interact with others - and especially so, if it wants to have terms that are agreed by all sides. It's the way of the world. "
Pssst.... just don't burst his bubble and tell him that trade deals involve "negotiations" too
-Matt |
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