FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Bitcoin and an idiots guide to how markets work
Bitcoin and an idiots guide to how markets work
Jump to: Newest in thread
 | |||
| |||
"Someone in the last bitcoin thread said: "If enough people decided that bitcoin was worthless trash tomorrow the value of it would drop without anyone having to sell anything - which goes back to the original point" Of course this is completely wrong! How markets work.... Change in attitude + action to buy or sell = price change Change in attitude + no action to buy or sell = nothing happens "If you say so. | |||
"Someone in the last bitcoin thread said: "If enough people decided that bitcoin was worthless trash tomorrow the value of it would drop without anyone having to sell anything - which goes back to the original point" Of course this is completely wrong! How markets work.... Change in attitude + action to buy or sell = price change Change in attitude + no action to buy or sell = nothing happens "So imagine you have 100 bitcoins, and no one will buy them. How much as they worth? | |||
"Someone in the last bitcoin thread said: "If enough people decided that bitcoin was worthless trash tomorrow the value of it would drop without anyone having to sell anything - which goes back to the original point" Of course this is completely wrong! How markets work.... Change in attitude + action to buy or sell = price change Change in attitude + no action to buy or sell = nothing happens
So imagine you have 100 bitcoins, and no one will buy them. How much as they worth? "You could say that about anything. You could say that about property... one of the most 'tangible' investments there is. If I buy a house for £300,000 and then few years later it is discovered that, I dunno, say, the water board in a cost-cutting measure decide to take my local water supply from a polluted river instead of a clear lake and effectively make the area un-inhabitable. How much is my house worth? If no-one wants to buy it it is worth (next to) nothing. -Matt | |||
| |||
| |||
"All cryptocurrencies have the same flaw. They are solutions in search of a problem. So when this bubble bursts there are going to be a lot of people suddenly very upset that their magic beans aren't worth a damn, and then the whole fad will be over for good because there's no reason for anyone to give a shit about these currencies once they stop being a get rich quick scheme." No, that was my point. They are not all the same. Some have very specific use-cases to solve very specific problems. Read up on Ripple for example. They are working with banks to sort out cross-border payments. Currently if you want to make a payment from the UK to the US, then it goes via SWIFT and takes 4 days and costs you £10 to do so. With Ripple it costs thousanths of a cent and takes 4 seconds. And this is actually in production right now. If you make a payment right now from the US using AMEX FX services to a Santander UK bank then it will go via Ripple. And you won't even know it. -Matt | |||
| |||
"I know about ripple. Banks are using the block chain its built on. As a currency, it like all cryptocurrencies, it is worthless." In the same way you could say that these pieces of paper with a picture of the Queen on in my wallet are worthless, then yes. But that is a whole different story... 
-Matt | |||
| |||
"All cryptocurrencies have the same flaw. They are solutions in search of a problem. So when this bubble bursts there are going to be a lot of people suddenly very upset that their magic beans aren't worth a damn, and then the whole fad will be over for good because there's no reason for anyone to give a shit about these currencies once they stop being a get rich quick scheme." They are the perfect example of a pyramid scheme | |||
"I know about ripple. Banks are using the block chain its built on. As a currency, it like all cryptocurrencies, it is worthless. In the same way you could say that these pieces of paper with a picture of the Queen on in my wallet are worthless, then yes. But that is a whole different story...
-Matt"And there was me thinking that if I took my £5 note into the Bank of England they would give me £5 for it. With no deflation or inflation. Only the products that I can buy with my £5 note are worth less or more. The £5 note that I have in my hand isn't speculative. The notional value of a crypto-currency is or product is. Just saying lol. | |||
 | |||
| |||
"All cryptocurrencies have the same flaw. They are solutions in search of a problem. So when this bubble bursts there are going to be a lot of people suddenly very upset that their magic beans aren't worth a damn, and then the whole fad will be over for good because there's no reason for anyone to give a shit about these currencies once they stop being a get rich quick scheme. No, that was my point. They are not all the same. Some have very specific use-cases to solve very specific problems. Read up on Ripple for example. They are working with banks to sort out cross-border payments. Currently if you want to make a payment from the UK to the US, then it goes via SWIFT and takes 4 days and costs you £10 to do so. With Ripple it costs thousanths of a cent and takes 4 seconds. And this is actually in production right now. If you make a payment right now from the US using AMEX FX services to a Santander UK bank then it will go via Ripple. And you won't even know it. -Matt" So I recently made a payment to Spain using PayPal and it seemed pretty instantaneous - what is the advantage of crytocurrency then? | |||
"I know about ripple. Banks are using the block chain its built on. As a currency, it like all cryptocurrencies, it is worthless. In the same way you could say that these pieces of paper with a picture of the Queen on in my wallet are worthless, then yes. But that is a whole different story...
-Matt
And there was me thinking that if I took my £5 note into the Bank of England they would give me £5 for it. With no deflation or inflation.
Only the products that I can buy with my £5 note are worth less or more. The £5 note that I have in my hand isn't speculative. The notional value of a crypto-currency is or product is.
Just saying lol.
"If you took that bitcoin and transferred it to someone else it would be worth exactly 1 bitcoin (minus a transfer fee). No inflation or deflation either. The point being that you don't need a central authority (the Bank of England) to verify that the 1 bitcoin you gave me is worth 1 bitcoin. It is exactly that same. The only speculative nature of it is what is that 1 bitcoin's value relative to another currency, e.g. pound sterling. But that is no different to the speculative nature of the relative value of the US dollar to the Pound Sterling. Same thing. -Matt | |||
| |||
" So I recently made a payment to Spain using PayPal and it seemed pretty instantaneous - what is the advantage of crytocurrency then?" It's a bit like Apple - some people buy into the idea that they are better phones.  | |||
"I know about ripple. Banks are using the block chain its built on. As a currency, it like all cryptocurrencies, it is worthless. In the same way you could say that these pieces of paper with a picture of the Queen on in my wallet are worthless, then yes. But that is a whole different story...
-Matt
And there was me thinking that if I took my £5 note into the Bank of England they would give me £5 for it. With no deflation or inflation.
Only the products that I can buy with my £5 note are worth less or more. The £5 note that I have in my hand isn't speculative. The notional value of a crypto-currency is or product is.
Just saying lol.
"I'm guessing what is meant is that all currency at the very bottom is based upon sky hooks The 5 pounds you refer to is theoretically only based upon gold which the bearer would be promised to be paid in and in truth gold and bit coin are similar in real worth Gold has very little value although it does not corrode and is a good electrical conductor but that's not worth thousands an oz Bit coin is worth less but as a none traceable method of payment it had it's value | |||
"All cryptocurrencies have the same flaw. They are solutions in search of a problem. So when this bubble bursts there are going to be a lot of people suddenly very upset that their magic beans aren't worth a damn, and then the whole fad will be over for good because there's no reason for anyone to give a shit about these currencies once they stop being a get rich quick scheme. No, that was my point. They are not all the same. Some have very specific use-cases to solve very specific problems. Read up on Ripple for example. They are working with banks to sort out cross-border payments. Currently if you want to make a payment from the UK to the US, then it goes via SWIFT and takes 4 days and costs you £10 to do so. With Ripple it costs thousanths of a cent and takes 4 seconds. And this is actually in production right now. If you make a payment right now from the US using AMEX FX services to a Santander UK bank then it will go via Ripple. And you won't even know it. -Matt So I recently made a payment to Spain using PayPal and it seemed pretty instantaneous - what is the advantage of crytocurrency then?" In short, that payment was sent via a single central entity, Paypal. Paypal could if they wanted to seize that funds. They have done it to me before. I was organising an event and selling tickets via Paypal. They decided to put a ringfence on the funds and whilst I had been paid, I could not withdraw the money for 3 months. A pain in the arse when you have venues and catering to pay for. One of the main ideas behind cryptocurrencies is that there is no central authority you have to go through. If I were to send you payment, then it goes direct to you, not via any 3rd party. The record of that payment (that ensure we both know you have been paid, and that I can't then spend that money twice) is stored in a distributed ledger spread across a number of computers on the internet and digitally signed. -Matt | |||
| |||
| |||
" I'm guessing what is meant is that all currency at the very bottom is based upon sky hooks The 5 pounds you refer to is theoretically only based upon gold which the bearer would be promised to be paid in and in truth gold and bit coin are similar in real worth Gold has very little value although it does not corrode and is a good electrical conductor but that's not worth thousands an oz Bit coin is worth less but as a none traceable method of payment it had it's value " Well my £5 is still worth £5 at the Bank of England no matter how much they value their repository of gold. I hand £5 over I get £5 back. When I spend my £5 note in person nobody takes a cut in handling my purchase. So. It's still worth a full £5. I can also make an anonymous purchase by spending it over a counter in billions of shops and service outlets worldwide. | |||
"All cryptocurrencies have the same flaw. They are solutions in search of a problem. So when this bubble bursts there are going to be a lot of people suddenly very upset that their magic beans aren't worth a damn, and then the whole fad will be over for good because there's no reason for anyone to give a shit about these currencies once they stop being a get rich quick scheme. No, that was my point. They are not all the same. Some have very specific use-cases to solve very specific problems. Read up on Ripple for example. They are working with banks to sort out cross-border payments. Currently if you want to make a payment from the UK to the US, then it goes via SWIFT and takes 4 days and costs you £10 to do so. With Ripple it costs thousanths of a cent and takes 4 seconds. And this is actually in production right now. If you make a payment right now from the US using AMEX FX services to a Santander UK bank then it will go via Ripple. And you won't even know it. -Matt So I recently made a payment to Spain using PayPal and it seemed pretty instantaneous - what is the advantage of crytocurrency then? In short, that payment was sent via a single central entity, Paypal. Paypal could if they wanted to seize that funds. They have done it to me before. I was organising an event and selling tickets via Paypal. They decided to put a ringfence on the funds and whilst I had been paid, I could not withdraw the money for 3 months. A pain in the arse when you have venues and catering to pay for. One of the main ideas behind cryptocurrencies is that there is no central authority you have to go through. If I were to send you payment, then it goes direct to you, not via any 3rd party. The record of that payment (that ensure we both know you have been paid, and that I can't then spend that money twice) is stored in a distributed ledger spread across a number of computers on the internet and digitally signed. -Matt" A bit like cash then | |||
"All cryptocurrencies have the same flaw. They are solutions in search of a problem. So when this bubble bursts there are going to be a lot of people suddenly very upset that their magic beans aren't worth a damn, and then the whole fad will be over for good because there's no reason for anyone to give a shit about these currencies once they stop being a get rich quick scheme. No, that was my point. They are not all the same. Some have very specific use-cases to solve very specific problems. Read up on Ripple for example. They are working with banks to sort out cross-border payments. Currently if you want to make a payment from the UK to the US, then it goes via SWIFT and takes 4 days and costs you £10 to do so. With Ripple it costs thousanths of a cent and takes 4 seconds. And this is actually in production right now. If you make a payment right now from the US using AMEX FX services to a Santander UK bank then it will go via Ripple. And you won't even know it. -Matt So I recently made a payment to Spain using PayPal and it seemed pretty instantaneous - what is the advantage of crytocurrency then? In short, that payment was sent via a single central entity, Paypal. Paypal could if they wanted to seize that funds. They have done it to me before. I was organising an event and selling tickets via Paypal. They decided to put a ringfence on the funds and whilst I had been paid, I could not withdraw the money for 3 months. A pain in the arse when you have venues and catering to pay for. One of the main ideas behind cryptocurrencies is that there is no central authority you have to go through. If I were to send you payment, then it goes direct to you, not via any 3rd party. The record of that payment (that ensure we both know you have been paid, and that I can't then spend that money twice) is stored in a distributed ledger spread across a number of computers on the internet and digitally signed. -Matt A bit like cash then "No, not really. How can you use cash currently to make a payment to someone the other side of the planet? Other than get on a plane with a suitcase full of it. Which actually is faster than the current banking system's means of doing cross-border payments. -Matt | |||
" I'm guessing what is meant is that all currency at the very bottom is based upon sky hooks The 5 pounds you refer to is theoretically only based upon gold which the bearer would be promised to be paid in and in truth gold and bit coin are similar in real worth Gold has very little value although it does not corrode and is a good electrical conductor but that's not worth thousands an oz Bit coin is worth less but as a none traceable method of payment it had it's value Well my £5 is still worth £5 at the Bank of England no matter how much they value their repository of gold. I hand £5 over I get £5 back. When I spend my £5 note in person nobody takes a cut in handling my purchase. So. It's still worth a full £5. I can also make an anonymous purchase by spending it over a counter in billions of shops and service outlets worldwide. "If you were to use something slightly more convenient than cash, such as a debit card, then someone takes a cut. You might not notice it as the retailer might have built that into their prices so you don't see it. And your point about the Bank of England is exactly the point that some crypto-currencies are trying to solve. If I give you a £10 note, then you trust that that is worth £10. Why? Because you trust that the Bank of England issued it, and you know that that is 'hard' to do. I can't easily just draw a pic of Liz on a piece of paper and hand it to you and you think it is worth £10. So the only reason bank notes work is because we both trust a central issuing authority. The Bank of England. What if I gave you a £10 Argos voucher instead. Would you trust that? Probably. You might deem it to be worth the same as a £10 note (if you shop at Argos). You might deem it worth less (if you don't shop at Argos). But you've heard of Argos and know it is probably worth it. What if I give you a £10 voucher for 'Bob's Thongs and Dongs Emporium' would you trust that? No, probably not as you have no idea who that it, or if they would honor that £10 and give you £10 worth of thongs and dongs. The thing that, e.g. Bitcoin, solves is that I can transfer 1 bitcoin to you and you can be assured that it is worth exactly 1 bitcoin. And we can do that transaction without having to trust each other, or any central authority. -Matt | |||
"Which is one of the many problems with cryptocurrencies. Verifying the transfer takes a long time (comparatively) and there's also the problem of what to do when there's disagreement over the state of the ledger." Depends on the cryptocurrency. They are not all the same. XRP (Ripple) settles a transaction and comes to consensus in 4 seconds. -Matt | |||
"Someone in the last bitcoin thread said: "If enough people decided that bitcoin was worthless trash tomorrow the value of it would drop without anyone having to sell anything - which goes back to the original point" Of course this is completely wrong! How markets work.... Change in attitude + action to buy or sell = price change Change in attitude + no action to buy or sell = nothing happens
If you say so."Who am I to disagree with the fundamentals of supply and demand, we can't all be as smart as you. | |||
"Someone in the last bitcoin thread said: "If enough people decided that bitcoin was worthless trash tomorrow the value of it would drop without anyone having to sell anything - which goes back to the original point" Of course this is completely wrong! How markets work.... Change in attitude + action to buy or sell = price change Change in attitude + no action to buy or sell = nothing happens
If you say so.
Who am I to disagree with the fundamentals of supply and demand, we can't all be as smart as you. "No, but you can aspire to be. | |||
"Which is one of the many problems with cryptocurrencies. Verifying the transfer takes a long time (comparatively) and there's also the problem of what to do when there's disagreement over the state of the ledger. Depends on the cryptocurrency. They are not all the same. XRP (Ripple) settles a transaction and comes to consensus in 4 seconds. -Matt" Which, comparatively speaking, is very damn slow. But it is quick by the pace set by BTC. | |||
" So I recently made a payment to Spain using PayPal and it seemed pretty instantaneous - what is the advantage of crytocurrency then? It's a bit like Apple - some people buy into the idea that they are better phones. " | |||
" If you were to use something slightly more convenient than cash, such as a debit card, then someone takes a cut. You might not notice it as the retailer might have built that into their prices so you don't see it. And your point about the Bank of England is exactly the point that some crypto-currencies are trying to solve. If I give you a £10 note, then you trust that that is worth £10. Why? Because you trust that the Bank of England issued it, and you know that that is 'hard' to do. I can't easily just draw a pic of Liz on a piece of paper and hand it to you and you think it is worth £10. So the only reason bank notes work is because we both trust a central issuing authority. The Bank of England. What if I gave you a £10 Argos voucher instead. Would you trust that? Probably. You might deem it to be worth the same as a £10 note (if you shop at Argos). You might deem it worth less (if you don't shop at Argos). But you've heard of Argos and know it is probably worth it. What if I give you a £10 voucher for 'Bob's Thongs and Dongs Emporium' would you trust that? No, probably not as you have no idea who that it, or if they would honor that £10 and give you £10 worth of thongs and dongs. The thing that, e.g. Bitcoin, solves is that I can transfer 1 bitcoin to you and you can be assured that it is worth exactly 1 bitcoin. And we can do that transaction without having to trust each other, or any central authority. -Matt" But I'm NOT using something like a credit card I'm using my £5 note. So nobody does take a cut. I'm NOT using an Argos voucher either - I'm still using my £5 note. If you transfer 1 BitCoin to me I may trust that you gave it to me but I can't trust that its value hasn't decreased and also I know for sure that it just lost some value to me because I paid a transaction fee for it. Yet if you gave me a £5 note it's still a £5 note and when when I give it to the Bank of England they will exchange it for a £5 note. Still. It is ONLY the Goods or Services that I purchase with it that decrease or increase in value - the £5 note is still worth £5 - My point is that the bitcoin can intrinsically rise or fall in value - my £5 never can.
| |||
| |||
" If you were to use something slightly more convenient than cash, such as a debit card, then someone takes a cut. You might not notice it as the retailer might have built that into their prices so you don't see it. And your point about the Bank of England is exactly the point that some crypto-currencies are trying to solve. If I give you a £10 note, then you trust that that is worth £10. Why? Because you trust that the Bank of England issued it, and you know that that is 'hard' to do. I can't easily just draw a pic of Liz on a piece of paper and hand it to you and you think it is worth £10. So the only reason bank notes work is because we both trust a central issuing authority. The Bank of England. What if I gave you a £10 Argos voucher instead. Would you trust that? Probably. You might deem it to be worth the same as a £10 note (if you shop at Argos). You might deem it worth less (if you don't shop at Argos). But you've heard of Argos and know it is probably worth it. What if I give you a £10 voucher for 'Bob's Thongs and Dongs Emporium' would you trust that? No, probably not as you have no idea who that it, or if they would honor that £10 and give you £10 worth of thongs and dongs. The thing that, e.g. Bitcoin, solves is that I can transfer 1 bitcoin to you and you can be assured that it is worth exactly 1 bitcoin. And we can do that transaction without having to trust each other, or any central authority. -Matt But I'm NOT using something like a credit card I'm using my £5 note. So nobody does take a cut. I'm NOT using an Argos voucher either - I'm still using my £5 note. If you transfer 1 BitCoin to me I may trust that you gave it to me but I can't trust that its value hasn't decreased and also I know for sure that it just lost some value to me because I paid a transaction fee for it. Yet if you gave me a £5 note it's still a £5 note and when when I give it to the Bank of England they will exchange it for a £5 note. Still. It is ONLY the Goods or Services that I purchase with it that decrease or increase in value - the £5 note is still worth £5 - My point is that the bitcoin can intrinsically rise or fall in value - my £5 never can.
"Surely that depends on what you use as your base 'currency'. If you use GBP as your base currency then you are correct, your £5 is always going to worth £5. If, as most of the FX trading world actually does, you use USD as your base currency then the value of your £5 is going to fluctuate in USD. It's the same for Bitcoin. 1 Bitcoin will always be worth 1 bitcoin, if you use Bitcoin as your base then it does not fluctuate, if use GBP, EUR, USD or even gold as your base then it probably does. The real problem I see with cryptocurrencies at the moment is that they are too volatile to actually be used for their main purpose, which is doing monetary transactions easily. For example, if I purchase something for $120 and the seller agrees to take payment in GBP at a rate of $1.20:£1.00. I pay him £100. Although the value of GBP may fluctuate in terms of GBP the seller knows that, by the time he has banked the money, he will still get about $120; it might be actually $121 or $119 but still about $120. The buyer also knows that, by the time he gets the goods, they will still be worth about £100, they may actually be worth £101 or £99 but still about £100. This can't be said the same for Bitcoin. Currently Bitcoin is going through a very rapid period of deflation which means that that if I don't spend my Bitcoin it will probably be worth more tomorrow than it id today. So why would I spend even a fraction of my Bitcoin buying something for $120 today when tomorrow I could buy it for an even smaller fraction of the same Bitcoin? Or am I missing something fundamental here? | |||
" If you were to use something slightly more convenient than cash, such as a debit card, then someone takes a cut. You might not notice it as the retailer might have built that into their prices so you don't see it. And your point about the Bank of England is exactly the point that some crypto-currencies are trying to solve. If I give you a £10 note, then you trust that that is worth £10. Why? Because you trust that the Bank of England issued it, and you know that that is 'hard' to do. I can't easily just draw a pic of Liz on a piece of paper and hand it to you and you think it is worth £10. So the only reason bank notes work is because we both trust a central issuing authority. The Bank of England. What if I gave you a £10 Argos voucher instead. Would you trust that? Probably. You might deem it to be worth the same as a £10 note (if you shop at Argos). You might deem it worth less (if you don't shop at Argos). But you've heard of Argos and know it is probably worth it. What if I give you a £10 voucher for 'Bob's Thongs and Dongs Emporium' would you trust that? No, probably not as you have no idea who that it, or if they would honor that £10 and give you £10 worth of thongs and dongs. The thing that, e.g. Bitcoin, solves is that I can transfer 1 bitcoin to you and you can be assured that it is worth exactly 1 bitcoin. And we can do that transaction without having to trust each other, or any central authority. -Matt But I'm NOT using something like a credit card I'm using my £5 note. So nobody does take a cut. I'm NOT using an Argos voucher either - I'm still using my £5 note. If you transfer 1 BitCoin to me I may trust that you gave it to me but I can't trust that its value hasn't decreased and also I know for sure that it just lost some value to me because I paid a transaction fee for it. Yet if you gave me a £5 note it's still a £5 note and when when I give it to the Bank of England they will exchange it for a £5 note. Still. It is ONLY the Goods or Services that I purchase with it that decrease or increase in value - the £5 note is still worth £5 - My point is that the bitcoin can intrinsically rise or fall in value - my £5 never can.
Surely that depends on what you use as your base 'currency'. If you use GBP as your base currency then you are correct, your £5 is always going to worth £5. If, as most of the FX trading world actually does, you use USD as your base currency then the value of your £5 is going to fluctuate in USD. It's the same for Bitcoin. 1 Bitcoin will always be worth 1 bitcoin, if you use Bitcoin as your base then it does not fluctuate, if use GBP, EUR, USD or even gold as your base then it probably does.
The real problem I see with cryptocurrencies at the moment is that they are too volatile to actually be used for their main purpose, which is doing monetary transactions easily.
For example, if I purchase something for $120 and the seller agrees to take payment in GBP at a rate of $1.20:£1.00. I pay him £100. Although the value of GBP may fluctuate in terms of GBP the seller knows that, by the time he has banked the money, he will still get about $120; it might be actually $121 or $119 but still about $120. The buyer also knows that, by the time he gets the goods, they will still be worth about £100, they may actually be worth £101 or £99 but still about £100. This can't be said the same for Bitcoin.
Currently Bitcoin is going through a very rapid period of deflation which means that that if I don't spend my Bitcoin it will probably be worth more tomorrow than it id today. So why would I spend even a fraction of my Bitcoin buying something for $120 today when tomorrow I could buy it for an even smaller fraction of the same Bitcoin? Or am I missing something fundamental here?"Exactly, One pound is one pound. One bitcoin is one bitcoin. They don't change in value with respect to themselves, only with respect to other currencies. Now you are correct about Bitcoin, in that you are better off holding it when it is appreciating in value rather than spending it. There are tales of '£100,000 pizzas' due to someone paying for a pizza with bitcoin several years ago that would now be worth £100,000 if they'd held on to it. This is where Bitcoin's own success in one way, has led to its failure in another. There is no way it would be used to pay for items now, as the transaction times and costs are so high, and you might as well hold on to it for investment instead. And you are right, the volatility combined with the transaction time create uncertainty of the value during a transaction. That is what Ripple solves by doing the transaction in 4 seconds. In fact, their main market it going after cross-border payments. So currently, if you make a payment from US to UK then it will take several days to get there. By that time the exchange rate may well have changed. Not to mention you have tied up that money in limbo in the process. If you are a large corporation that has to shift money around the globe constantly (to manufacturing plants, suppliers, etc), then think about how much money they must have 'in flight' at any one time? And think about how much reserve they must keep in nostro and vostro accounts such that they have the capability to pay at any time. With Ripple, you can do that cross-border payment in 4 seconds. So you no longer have to keep big pools of local currency in order to stay liquid. -Matt | |||
.
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally) | |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)"Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins.  | |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)
Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins. ". I've already put my forecast on where that's going on here five years ago. Mr too hot told me I should be stood outside old Trafford with my sandwich board,I can quote him "the world's a lovely place that will be just fine regardless of my nonsense climate change claims"..."c02 is just a trace gas"... The oceans are just fine, I was diving in Florida just the other week" !!!! Apparently since brexit, he's the Voice of reason and sanity .
I don't wanna talk about climate change anymore, I've done it to death for 25 years thanks, I've walked the talk, I've protested, I've lived like a hermit, I've tied myself to trees, aircraft runways, fracking rigs and froze my balls off in empty fields, it achieved Jack shit, what I actually learnt over those 25 years is A I wasted them and B nobody gives a shit, because the world is run by maniacs for maniacal objectives!.... This is a universal truth that when you grasp helps you see a little further down the road, so damocles can take his dagger from over my head and frankly.... Shove it up his arse | |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)
Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins. "Are bitcoins eco friendly? Or does all the electricity used in running the computers for mining make it worse than regular currency? | |||
| |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)
Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins.
Are bitcoins eco friendly? Or does all the electricity used in running the computers for mining make it worse than regular currency?"That's a good point | |||
"Does anyone on here actual mine bitcoin? " Doubt it, it is not really economical to do so now. The cost of the electricity required is greater than the value of the bitcoin you get as a reward for doing so. Hence why the majority of bitcoins are mined in China where they can get cheap electricity from the old coal stations. -Matt | |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)
Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins.
Are bitcoins eco friendly? Or does all the electricity used in running the computers for mining make it worse than regular currency?"No, it is not really. Various comparisons bandied about such as the entire Bitcoin mining system using as much electricity as Denmark... not checked the validity of these claims, but wouldn't surprise me. We used to run some mining rigs at work a few years back, but that was before the it became un-economical to do so. Again, not all cryptocurrencies use the same 'proof of work' mechanism to validate transactions. The ones based on 'proof of stake' or trusted validators use virtually no energy in comparison. -Matt | |||
"Does anyone on here actual mine bitcoin? Doubt it, it is not really economical to do so now. The cost of the electricity required is greater than the value of the bitcoin you get as a reward for doing so. Hence why the majority of bitcoins are mined in China where they can get cheap electricity from the old coal stations. -Matt" And does that sound like the currency of the future? | |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)
Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins. .
I've already put my forecast on where that's going on here five years ago.
Mr too hot told me I should be stood outside old Trafford with my sandwich board,I can quote him "the world's a lovely place that will be just fine regardless of my nonsense climate change claims"..."c02 is just a trace gas"... The oceans are just fine, I was diving in Florida just the other week" !!!!
Apparently since brexit, he's the Voice of reason and sanity .
I don't wanna talk about climate change anymore, I've done it to death for 25 years thanks, I've walked the talk, I've protested, I've lived like a hermit, I've tied myself to trees, aircraft runways, fracking rigs and froze my balls off in empty fields, it achieved Jack shit, what I actually learnt over those 25 years is A I wasted them and B nobody gives a shit, because the world is run by maniacs for maniacal objectives!.... This is a universal truth that when you grasp helps you see a little further down the road, so damocles can take his dagger from over my head and frankly.... Shove it up his arse "I doubt you've given up.You know one bitcoin transaction uses the equivalent to a US households weekly power use and there are 300,000 transactions a day. | |||
"Does anyone on here actual mine bitcoin? Doubt it, it is not really economical to do so now. The cost of the electricity required is greater than the value of the bitcoin you get as a reward for doing so. Hence why the majority of bitcoins are mined in China where they can get cheap electricity from the old coal stations. -Matt And does that sound like the currency of the future?" Nope. If you've been reading what I've been posting in this thread, it's probably quite clear I don't think Bitcoin is the future. -Matt | |||
"Does anyone on here actual mine bitcoin? Doubt it, it is not really economical to do so now. The cost of the electricity required is greater than the value of the bitcoin you get as a reward for doing so. Hence why the majority of bitcoins are mined in China where they can get cheap electricity from the old coal stations. -Matt And does that sound like the currency of the future?" It's not even a currency of the now. | |||
"Does anyone on here actual mine bitcoin? Doubt it, it is not really economical to do so now. The cost of the electricity required is greater than the value of the bitcoin you get as a reward for doing so. Hence why the majority of bitcoins are mined in China where they can get cheap electricity from the old coal stations. -Matt And does that sound like the currency of the future? It's not even a currency of the now." Oh, it had it's chance a few year's back... but it has become a victim of it's own success in a way. But it did pioneer an entire cryptocurrency world. -Matt | |||
| |||
"Don't waste your breath trying to argue with the luddites!... They've been giving me lessons on how worthless there gonna be at 1000 then 3000 then 5000 at 10k they told me I was an utter maniac and scoffed when I told them I'm selling at 50k .
There such economic geniuses that they have all day to spout economic nonsense (I've always said having a job at least keeps you occupied mentally)
Why would anyone concerned about climate change invest in bitcoins. .
I've already put my forecast on where that's going on here five years ago.
Mr too hot told me I should be stood outside old Trafford with my sandwich board,I can quote him "the world's a lovely place that will be just fine regardless of my nonsense climate change claims"..."c02 is just a trace gas"... The oceans are just fine, I was diving in Florida just the other week" !!!!
Apparently since brexit, he's the Voice of reason and sanity .
I don't wanna talk about climate change anymore, I've done it to death for 25 years thanks, I've walked the talk, I've protested, I've lived like a hermit, I've tied myself to trees, aircraft runways, fracking rigs and froze my balls off in empty fields, it achieved Jack shit, what I actually learnt over those 25 years is A I wasted them and B nobody gives a shit, because the world is run by maniacs for maniacal objectives!.... This is a universal truth that when you grasp helps you see a little further down the road, so damocles can take his dagger from over my head and frankly.... Shove it up his arse I doubt you've given up.You know one bitcoin transaction uses the equivalent to a US households weekly power use and there are 300,000 transactions a day."See that is the issue, Bitcoin is creaking under the load already and 300,000 transactions per day is not that many. I, alone, do about 50,000 foreign exchange transactions per day on Ripple. At a sum total cost of about 71 pence a day. Not per transaction. but total, for 50,000 transactions. If I tried to do that on Bitcoin, not only would it be costing millions of pounds a day, but I'd be using about the power of Bristol a day to do so. -Matt | |||
| |||
"So let me get this right.. Someone created a name and assigned a number to it, number 1.. they then said it was a new currency and if you want No.2, you can buy it off me but there is only two of them.. And then others wanted a number, so numbers 3 to 10,000 were created and people bought them.. So, what have they bought? There is no capital behind it, nothing of worth, just the word of someone on the Web? Sounds like that email "I am a Nigerian general, send me $500....." " Not quite. There is an argument for 'proof of work coins like Bitcoin that there is an intrinsic value of the energy costs to mine them. But that is currently something in the order of $200 a bitcoin. They are currently worth about £13,000. But as someone else pointed out, you could say that about diamonds. Yes there is a cost of mine them, but their sale value far exceeds that cost. The value of one bitcoin is one bitcoin. If I paid £13,000 for a bitcoin. What is that bitcoin worth? £13,000? Well that is what I am hoping, as if I now sold that coin, I'd want £13,000 back for it. I can only be assured that that bitcoin is worth £13,000 because there is a global consensus that that is what it is worth. But bitcoin has gone up incredibly in price recently, mainly due to good old fashioned supply and demand. But soon the bubble could pop. And when it does there could be the digital equivalent of a 'run on the banks'. When bitcoin was worth a few quid then an exchange would easily have the liquidity to give you a few quid in sterling back for a bitcoin. But now... if everyone with bitcoin wants there money out there is going to be a problem. -Matt | |||
"So let me get this right.. Someone created a name and assigned a number to it, number 1.. they then said it was a new currency and if you want No.2, you can buy it off me but there is only two of them.. And then others wanted a number, so numbers 3 to 10,000 were created and people bought them.. So, what have they bought? There is no capital behind it, nothing of worth, just the word of someone on the Web? Sounds like that email "I am a Nigerian general, send me $500....." " . ALL currency gets its value from belief in the people using it, I suspect you like many others may have paid thousands of pounds for diamonds and gold in engagement and wedding rings..... They use ten tonne bulldozers to shift diamonds around Wearhouses in Holland, there neither rare or useful, there manipulated in belief and scarcity to achieve "value"!. Fiat currency issued by the state is backed by nothing, it has 0 value, paper has a value but when you print or write on it, it becomes scrap paper with a value of scarp paper (ps modern notes aren't even paper there genuinely worthless bits of plastic). They derive there value from your "belief" in it being used as a method for labour transfer, currency only buys one thing, labour, somebody's time, the banking crises of 08 rocked the belief in state issued currency, this isn't new, plenty of people don't want to work for the Zimbabwean dollar, it holds no "belief" and it's no different than any other state issued currency, it's manufactured the same way with the same banking and the same "core" value!. Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... So what's the problem with state issued currency???. Well it's beginning to lose its magical belief because of global debt,52 trillion of trade and 352 trillion of debt, the numbers just don't work, which is why were in this very crazy world of 0% interest rates and worthless bonds passed between central banks. The worst thing I read is this notion that bitcoin is a "pyramid" scheme.... It just shows me straight off the bat that the person writing that has no concept of how state issued currency comes about! | |||
| |||
"Thing is, it is a pyramid scheme." . To create state issued currency you require debt, to pay the debt you require more currency to get more currency you need err more debt, every pound is created with 0.75% of debt attached to it which requires err more debt to pay the debt....... pyramid schemes are a way of life and they all require "belief" in them going on, when they end (and they all do) something new comes along! | |||
| |||
| |||
"Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... " No, it *was* designed as a transactional currency. That was it's entire point. Read the original paper by 'Satoshi Nakamoko' on their original vision for what Bitcoin was. It has only become a store of value due to it's rapid appreciation and its failings to live up to its original goals. That is there the majority of other digital currencies are coming in to fill the gap. -Matt | |||
"One of the defining characteristics of pyramid schemes is that they're reliant on people in the pyramid convincing other people to come on board because they can get hella rich. Of course, once enough people are in, you bail and the poor saps further down the pyramid get shafted. Or the saps on the same level as you who don't bail in time. Let's see how this plays out with BTC, shall we?" . What does state issued currency require, more and more people and more and more debt, it is the perfect pyramid scheme based on belief and it's very very very tall, to pay the old debt now requires trillions of new debt, if you cut the debt you kill the belief and the pack of cards crumbles. Bitcoin will die eventually but it's use was putting the blockchain into mainstream usage. | |||
"One of the defining characteristics of pyramid schemes is that they're reliant on people in the pyramid convincing other people to come on board because they can get hella rich. Of course, once enough people are in, you bail and the poor saps further down the pyramid get shafted. Or the saps on the same level as you who don't bail in time. Let's see how this plays out with BTC, shall we?" Oh, I think you are right in this case. I think there will be a big crash coming up and a lot of people will lose their shirts. There have been a couple of close calls recently where cabals of mining companies have attempted to disrupt it. The original concept of Bitcoin was that as long as no one entity controlled over 50% of the mining power, then it could never be subverted. But the big Chinese mining co's are breaking that original assumption. The interesting thing will be that there is now big institutional money flowing in. Futures trading has just started on the CBOE and next week on the CME. Both big traditional financial exchanges. These are 'cash settled' futures, so all they are doing is betting cash on the future value of bitcoin, be it up or down. So they don't have to get their hands dirty with any of the messy bits. Just put their bets on. But I'm wondering what will then happen when you get, e.g. a big institutional investor with a bet on the price will drop.
-Matt | |||
| |||
"Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... No, it *was* designed as a transactional currency. That was it's entire point. Read the original paper by 'Satoshi Nakamoko' on their original vision for what Bitcoin was. It has only become a store of value due to it's rapid appreciation and its failings to live up to its original goals. That is there the majority of other digital currencies are coming in to fill the gap. -Matt" . I don't actually know the fundamentals of it, it's a small cog in a big wheel,I bought 33 bitcoins in 2011 for the reasons I'm taking about, life isn't static and neither is digital currency or state issued currency. It's a birth and death progress like life | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme." . Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. | |||
"Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... No, it *was* designed as a transactional currency. That was it's entire point. Read the original paper by 'Satoshi Nakamoko' on their original vision for what Bitcoin was. It has only become a store of value due to it's rapid appreciation and its failings to live up to its original goals. That is there the majority of other digital currencies are coming in to fill the gap. -Matt. I don't actually know the fundamentals of it, it's a small cog in a big wheel,I bought 33 bitcoins in 2011 for the reasons I'm taking about, life isn't static and neither is digital currency or state issued currency. It's a birth and death progress like life" Still got them?
But as you said above... one of the big breakthroughs with bitcoin was to bring about the use of blockchain... now once we get past the 'blockchain all the things' phase and get some proper use of it, it will get very interesting indeed.
I don't have any bitcoin... did check some old hard drives, as it was something I looked at at the time, and knowing me I would have played around with a bit. But I'm now mainly invested in Ripple and trade in and out of other currencies.
-Matt | |||
"Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... No, it *was* designed as a transactional currency. That was it's entire point. Read the original paper by 'Satoshi Nakamoko' on their original vision for what Bitcoin was. It has only become a store of value due to it's rapid appreciation and its failings to live up to its original goals. That is there the majority of other digital currencies are coming in to fill the gap. -Matt. I don't actually know the fundamentals of it, it's a small cog in a big wheel,I bought 33 bitcoins in 2011 for the reasons I'm taking about, life isn't static and neither is digital currency or state issued currency. It's a birth and death progress like life Still got them?
But as you said above... one of the big breakthroughs with bitcoin was to bring about the use of blockchain... now once we get past the 'blockchain all the things' phase and get some proper use of it, it will get very interesting indeed.
I don't have any bitcoin... did check some old hard drives, as it was something I looked at at the time, and knowing me I would have played around with a bit. But I'm now mainly invested in Ripple and trade in and out of other currencies.
-Matt". Still got them, I bought them for investment with my last few grand, which was a gamble at the time like all others. I'm probably going to exchange them in the new year as I want to do something with the profit, I actually don't think the crash is anywhere near close, I think they may go as high as 70k maybe even a 100k and I suspect state issued currency may well crash before they do, Donald trump is currently ripping up the dollar debt the euro is a basket case and the yuan and yen is a devaluation case, nobody can put up interest rates so the search for profit by capital is very strong. As far as I'm concerned the sooner state issued currency dies a death the better, the world's been ruled by it for far too long  | |||
"Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... No, it *was* designed as a transactional currency. That was it's entire point. Read the original paper by 'Satoshi Nakamoko' on their original vision for what Bitcoin was. It has only become a store of value due to it's rapid appreciation and its failings to live up to its original goals. That is there the majority of other digital currencies are coming in to fill the gap. -Matt. I don't actually know the fundamentals of it, it's a small cog in a big wheel,I bought 33 bitcoins in 2011 for the reasons I'm taking about, life isn't static and neither is digital currency or state issued currency. It's a birth and death progress like life Still got them?
But as you said above... one of the big breakthroughs with bitcoin was to bring about the use of blockchain... now once we get past the 'blockchain all the things' phase and get some proper use of it, it will get very interesting indeed.
I don't have any bitcoin... did check some old hard drives, as it was something I looked at at the time, and knowing me I would have played around with a bit. But I'm now mainly invested in Ripple and trade in and out of other currencies.
-Matt.
Still got them, I bought them for investment with my last few grand, which was a gamble at the time like all others.
I'm probably going to exchange them in the new year as I want to do something with the profit, I actually don't think the crash is anywhere near close, I think they may go as high as 70k maybe even a 100k and I suspect state issued currency may well crash before they do, Donald trump is currently ripping up the dollar debt the euro is a basket case and the yuan and yen is a devaluation case, nobody can put up interest rates so the search for profit by capital is very strong.
As far as I'm concerned the sooner state issued currency dies a death the better, the world's been ruled by it for far too long "Nice one I don't know your circumstances, but that is a tidy sum to buy a house or pay off the mortgage.
I agree with you to a degree about state-issued currency. I think in agree in principal, but don't see how in reality we will be doing away with it any time soon. I think the financial industry is going to change dramatically in 2018, as there are so many promising upcoming new digital banks and currencies and services that I think will really gain traction.
I needed to send some money to a crypto gateway this week, and I knew my high street bank would stiff me on the fees and rate. I tried to use a 3rd party currency transfer service. They blocked the transaction as they don't allow payments to crypto gateways for some reason. In the end I opened an account with Revolut. I downloaded the app, and had a fully fledged bank account in about 5 minutes, KYC checks completed in the background in about 15 minutes. I was then able to transfer funds from my high street bank to that account instantly via debit card, then convert it at inter-bank rate from GBP to EUR, then send a SEPA payment to the crypto gateway directly at no cost. So I went from not being a customer of theirs, to having a fully fledged account, funding it and making an international payment at interbank rates in under half an hour. The only slow bit was the SEPA payment as that is out of their hands. Revolut allow me to hold something like 35 different currencies in the same account and transfer at interbank rate between them. They also now support Bitcoin, Ethereum, and one other crypto currency... and going to be adding Ripple soon hopefully. Which actually does away with the Crypto gateway entirely.
This is leaving the high street banks in the dust.
-Matt | |||
"Bitcoin was never designed as a transaction currency, it was always a store of wealth no different than davincis painting that the Saudi Prince payed 500 million dollars for.... No, it *was* designed as a transactional currency. That was it's entire point. Read the original paper by 'Satoshi Nakamoko' on their original vision for what Bitcoin was. It has only become a store of value due to it's rapid appreciation and its failings to live up to its original goals. That is there the majority of other digital currencies are coming in to fill the gap. -Matt. I don't actually know the fundamentals of it, it's a small cog in a big wheel,I bought 33 bitcoins in 2011 for the reasons I'm taking about, life isn't static and neither is digital currency or state issued currency. It's a birth and death progress like life Still got them?
But as you said above... one of the big breakthroughs with bitcoin was to bring about the use of blockchain... now once we get past the 'blockchain all the things' phase and get some proper use of it, it will get very interesting indeed.
I don't have any bitcoin... did check some old hard drives, as it was something I looked at at the time, and knowing me I would have played around with a bit. But I'm now mainly invested in Ripple and trade in and out of other currencies.
-Matt.
Still got them, I bought them for investment with my last few grand, which was a gamble at the time like all others.
I'm probably going to exchange them in the new year as I want to do something with the profit, I actually don't think the crash is anywhere near close, I think they may go as high as 70k maybe even a 100k and I suspect state issued currency may well crash before they do, Donald trump is currently ripping up the dollar debt the euro is a basket case and the yuan and yen is a devaluation case, nobody can put up interest rates so the search for profit by capital is very strong.
As far as I'm concerned the sooner state issued currency dies a death the better, the world's been ruled by it for far too long
Nice one I don't know your circumstances, but that is a tidy sum to buy a house or pay off the mortgage.
I agree with you to a degree about state-issued currency. I think in agree in principal, but don't see how in reality we will be doing away with it any time soon. I think the financial industry is going to change dramatically in 2018, as there are so many promising upcoming new digital banks and currencies and services that I think will really gain traction.
I needed to send some money to a crypto gateway this week, and I knew my high street bank would stiff me on the fees and rate. I tried to use a 3rd party currency transfer service. They blocked the transaction as they don't allow payments to crypto gateways for some reason. In the end I opened an account with Revolut. I downloaded the app, and had a fully fledged bank account in about 5 minutes, KYC checks completed in the background in about 15 minutes. I was then able to transfer funds from my high street bank to that account instantly via debit card, then convert it at inter-bank rate from GBP to EUR, then send a SEPA payment to the crypto gateway directly at no cost. So I went from not being a customer of theirs, to having a fully fledged account, funding it and making an international payment at interbank rates in under half an hour. The only slow bit was the SEPA payment as that is out of their hands. Revolut allow me to hold something like 35 different currencies in the same account and transfer at interbank rate between them. They also now support Bitcoin, Ethereum, and one other crypto currency... and going to be adding Ripple soon hopefully. Which actually does away with the Crypto gateway entirely.
This is leaving the high street banks in the dust.
-Matt". The Iraq war was not about securing oil, it was about securing the us dollar in its role as the currency for petroleum, China didn't just dominate industry through cheap labour, cheap labours everywhere, it dominated it through its ability to devalue it's currency giving it huge advantages, the world for two thousand years is littered with empires manipulating their currency for the benefit of the empire, today is no different, in fact it's just got worse, the enemy is not capitalism but those who manipulate capitalism for their own gain and no greater manipulation is there than state issued currency | |||
| |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. " I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing | |||
 | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing" . Each tier of the pyramid requires more of to pay the top tier, that's the definition of pyramid scheme, in a finite world you can't keep finding more of anything so yes everything is a pyramid scheme and that very definition applies perfectly to state issued currency because to create state issued currency requires debt and each time you create the next tier it requires more debt to pay for the first tier creation and on and on it goes until you reach the point where you have more debt than trade can pay for and because it's given value only by your belief you can't wipe the debt and so your forced to reduce the cost of the debt to 0% or minus % in a desperate attempt to keep your pyramid scheme going ....
| |||
"The EU have announced they will clamp down on bitcoin platforms to stop money laundering ". The maniacs for maniacal objectives will say anything to keep the status quo, they seemed pretty happy to let HSBC launder hundreds of millions of state issued currency for Hezbollah or Deutsch bank to launder hundreds of millions for south American drug cartels.... The reality is it's about control and state issued currency gives them the ultimate control over everybody | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing. Each tier of the pyramid requires more of to pay the top tier, that's the definition of pyramid scheme, in a finite world you can't keep finding more of anything so yes everything is a pyramid scheme and that very definition applies perfectly to state issued currency because to create state issued currency requires debt and each time you create the next tier it requires more debt to pay for the first tier creation and on and on it goes until you reach the point where you have more debt than trade can pay for and because it's given value only by your belief you can't wipe the debt and so your forced to reduce the cost of the debt to 0% or minus % in a desperate attempt to keep your pyramid scheme going ....
"No. | |||
"The EU have announced they will clamp down on bitcoin platforms to stop money laundering "See, this was one of the original goals of Bitcoin -- to create a system of transferring value that can't be censored. No, of course the powers that be will say that is it used for 'bad things' and no doubt it is. But then so is fiat currency. You can't get any more untraceable than printing a bunch of banknotes and airdropping them in to a bunch of insurgents/terrorists/freedom-fighters. But the point is that if I want to send some funds to support a cause on the other side of the planet. With Bitcoin I can do that. Regardless of what any government thinks. So governments are doing the only thing the can do, and that is go after the exchanges and the points at which crypto-currencies touch fiat currencies. -Matt | |||
"The EU have announced they will clamp down on bitcoin platforms to stop money laundering
See, this was one of the original goals of Bitcoin -- to create a system of transferring value that can't be censored. No, of course the powers that be will say that is it used for 'bad things' and no doubt it is. But then so is fiat currency. You can't get any more untraceable than printing a bunch of banknotes and airdropping them in to a bunch of insurgents/terrorists/freedom-fighters.
But the point is that if I want to send some funds to support a cause on the other side of the planet. With Bitcoin I can do that. Regardless of what any government thinks.
So governments are doing the only thing the can do, and that is go after the exchanges and the points at which crypto-currencies touch fiat currencies.
-Matt"And they should. | |||
 | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing. Each tier of the pyramid requires more of to pay the top tier, that's the definition of pyramid scheme, in a finite world you can't keep finding more of anything so yes everything is a pyramid scheme and that very definition applies perfectly to state issued currency because to create state issued currency requires debt and each time you create the next tier it requires more debt to pay for the first tier creation and on and on it goes until you reach the point where you have more debt than trade can pay for and because it's given value only by your belief you can't wipe the debt and so your forced to reduce the cost of the debt to 0% or minus % in a desperate attempt to keep your pyramid scheme going ....
No.". Haha yea... You sound like one of those Zimbabweans pushing round a wheelbarrow full of dollars saying.... It's real I tell yer, why won't you accept it | |||
| |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. " Yup, not surprising. It really is very wasteful on energy. I imagine, just like porn brought faster internet, bitcoin will help produce more energy efficient processors. But still.. it is a horrific waste of energy -Matt | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing. Each tier of the pyramid requires more of to pay the top tier, that's the definition of pyramid scheme, in a finite world you can't keep finding more of anything so yes everything is a pyramid scheme and that very definition applies perfectly to state issued currency because to create state issued currency requires debt and each time you create the next tier it requires more debt to pay for the first tier creation and on and on it goes until you reach the point where you have more debt than trade can pay for and because it's given value only by your belief you can't wipe the debt and so your forced to reduce the cost of the debt to 0% or minus % in a desperate attempt to keep your pyramid scheme going ....
No..
Haha yea... You sound like one of those Zimbabweans pushing round a wheelbarrow full of dollars saying.... It's real I tell yer, why won't you accept it "Well, I could join in and call everything a pyramid scheme run by maniacs, but it's a bit too much of a simplistic tale that only exists simply to soothe ones ego for me. | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing. Each tier of the pyramid requires more of to pay the top tier, that's the definition of pyramid scheme, in a finite world you can't keep finding more of anything so yes everything is a pyramid scheme and that very definition applies perfectly to state issued currency because to create state issued currency requires debt and each time you create the next tier it requires more debt to pay for the first tier creation and on and on it goes until you reach the point where you have more debt than trade can pay for and because it's given value only by your belief you can't wipe the debt and so your forced to reduce the cost of the debt to 0% or minus % in a desperate attempt to keep your pyramid scheme going ....
No..
Haha yea... You sound like one of those Zimbabweans pushing round a wheelbarrow full of dollars saying.... It's real I tell yer, why won't you accept it
Well, I could join in and call everything a pyramid scheme run by maniacs, but it's a bit too much of a simplistic tale that only exists simply to soothe ones ego for me."To be fair psychopaths rise to the top. | |||
"That's not really how fiat works, but even if it did, your argument isn't that it's not a pyramid scheme, but rather that it is a pyramid scheme, but c'est la vie. Which, fair enough, if that's how you want to spin it, but it doesn't line up with previous claims that bitcoin ISN'T a pyramid scheme.. Everything is a pyramid scheme! It's a finite planet and I'm afraid that's exactly how state issued currency works, if it didn't we wouldn't have had the mess of 08. I mean, if you con yourself into thinking that everything is a pyramid scheme, and the world is "run by maniacs", then sure, I guess this makes sense. But if you're not a subscriber to such a simplistic and wrong worldview, then it is less convincing. Each tier of the pyramid requires more of to pay the top tier, that's the definition of pyramid scheme, in a finite world you can't keep finding more of anything so yes everything is a pyramid scheme and that very definition applies perfectly to state issued currency because to create state issued currency requires debt and each time you create the next tier it requires more debt to pay for the first tier creation and on and on it goes until you reach the point where you have more debt than trade can pay for and because it's given value only by your belief you can't wipe the debt and so your forced to reduce the cost of the debt to 0% or minus % in a desperate attempt to keep your pyramid scheme going ....
No..
Haha yea... You sound like one of those Zimbabweans pushing round a wheelbarrow full of dollars saying.... It's real I tell yer, why won't you accept it
Well, I could join in and call everything a pyramid scheme run by maniacs, but it's a bit too much of a simplistic tale that only exists simply to soothe ones ego for me. To be fair psychopaths rise to the top. ". Bingo | |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. " . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous | |||
| |||
| |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous "I wish I could get £2 flights! | |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous
I wish I could get £2 flights! ". That was sarcasm! Are you fucking serious, of all the environmental problems you need to publish an article on bitcoins electrical usage!!!!. FFS I could run you through the next 500 more serious concerns of your really that bothered but I doubt in reality you are | |||
| |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous
I wish I could get £2 flights! .
That was sarcasm!
Are you fucking serious, of all the environmental problems you need to publish an article on bitcoins electrical usage!!!!.
FFS I could run you through the next 500 more serious concerns of your really that bothered but I doubt in reality you are"
Firstly, I don't publish the telegraph. I simply have the telegraph app on my phone, and it happened to push an article to my phone about how bitcoin is killing the planet. In light of this thread, and my previous question about its green credentials, I thought it was pertinent.
I never said it was the most important environmental problem out there (I think we all agree that it's overly high wattage microwaves). | |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous
I wish I could get £2 flights! .
That was sarcasm!
Are you fucking serious, of all the environmental problems you need to publish an article on bitcoins electrical usage!!!!.
FFS I could run you through the next 500 more serious concerns of your really that bothered but I doubt in reality you are
Firstly, I don't publish the telegraph. I simply have the telegraph app on my phone, and it happened to push an article to my phone about how bitcoin is killing the planet. In light of this thread, and my previous question about its green credentials, I thought it was pertinent.
I never said it was the most important environmental problem out there (I think we all agree that it's overly high wattage microwaves).". Killing the planet????. Get fucked we've been doing that for the last 2000 years, what that article your refering to is attempting to do is blur the bullshit of control. Like I said if you feel that strongly about it stop flying and driving and immigration from Eastern Europe | |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous
I wish I could get £2 flights! .
That was sarcasm!
Are you fucking serious, of all the environmental problems you need to publish an article on bitcoins electrical usage!!!!.
FFS I could run you through the next 500 more serious concerns of your really that bothered but I doubt in reality you are
Firstly, I don't publish the telegraph. I simply have the telegraph app on my phone, and it happened to push an article to my phone about how bitcoin is killing the planet. In light of this thread, and my previous question about its green credentials, I thought it was pertinent.
I never said it was the most important environmental problem out there (I think we all agree that it's overly high wattage microwaves)..
Killing the planet????.
Get fucked we've been doing that for the last 2000 years, what that article your refering to is attempting to do is blur the bullshit of control.
Like I said if you feel that strongly about it stop flying and driving and immigration from Eastern Europe"How mining bitcoin is 'killing the planet' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/16/virtual-bitcoin-production-killing-planet/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_Ap4LWjMXpcnp It's their article, their title, if you dont like it, take it up with them! | |||
"The Telegraph has just published an article about how bitcoin is "killing the planet" due to the ammount of electricity is used to create it. . Yeah and you cunts flying around on £2 trips to Spain are just tree huggers... . It's outrageous
I wish I could get £2 flights! .
That was sarcasm!
Are you fucking serious, of all the environmental problems you need to publish an article on bitcoins electrical usage!!!!.
FFS I could run you through the next 500 more serious concerns of your really that bothered but I doubt in reality you are
Firstly, I don't publish the telegraph. I simply have the telegraph app on my phone, and it happened to push an article to my phone about how bitcoin is killing the planet. In light of this thread, and my previous question about its green credentials, I thought it was pertinent.
I never said it was the most important environmental problem out there (I think we all agree that it's overly high wattage microwaves)..
Killing the planet????.
Get fucked we've been doing that for the last 2000 years, what that article your refering to is attempting to do is blur the bullshit of control.
Like I said if you feel that strongly about it stop flying and driving and immigration from Eastern Europe
How mining bitcoin is 'killing the planet'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/16/virtual-bitcoin-production-killing-planet/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_Ap4LWjMXpcnp
It's their article, their title, if you dont like it, take it up with them! ". Scab | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"The head of Singapore's finacial watchdog has said that bitcoin has no intrinsic value and the current speculation will likely end in tears, but what does she know? "I think she is likely to be right. Singapore is a massive trade hub. The PM recently re-asserted their goal to become a ‘smart nation’ and as part f that work on digitising money flow. One of the reasons why Ripple have based their APAC office there. Standard Chartered have recently started doing real-time payments to Axis Bank in India. The growth of decentralised digital currencies is going to be massive over the next couple of years. -Matt | |||
| |||
"Nobody else notice the bitcoin crash today.It’s now down 33 percent for the week, and 41 percent for the month." But, but, but, it's going to the moooooooon! | |||
| |||
| |||
"Been sort of reading this thread and either I have totally misunderstood bitcoin or most if not all people here misunderstand it. As I understand it there is only one way to make bitcoin and that is by mining. Mining being solving increasingly difficult computational problems by writing computer code that is then used to produce more complicated apps. And rather than being paid in a national currency you receive bitcoins and those bitcoins have real value because the apps produced by the code have real world values. People who who invest in bitcoin are buying shares in the accumulated value of the code and apps that have been spawned by mining bitcoin. So in effect dealing in bitcoin is just like dealing in stocks and shares without the banks and stockbrokers taking their cuts for every transaction. If anyone here truly understands bitcoin can they confirm that I have understood the concept correctly please. " No, the problems that are solved dont have any real world value, they are not decoding the human genome for example. The "mining" is a race to see who can update the continuous running ledger with the latest transaction. As the ledger gets bigger and bigger, the problems get more and more complicated. If you are the first person to update the ledger, you get rewarded with freshly created bitcoins. Over time the ammount you get decreases, and will decrease to 0 by 2140. You also get a 'tip' from the people making the transaction, so from 2140 onwards, the plan is people will continue to keep this ledger upto date just for tips. | |||
"Nobody else notice the bitcoin crash today.It’s now down 33 percent for the week, and 41 percent for the month. But, but, but, it's going to the moooooooon!" . It's called short term speculative volatility, the more money you can make the bigger the volatility!. If your seriously looking for a longer term price you need to try to factor in alot of presumptions and relationships to other currencies. If your a bit daft just stick with Canadian dollars, they'll work out around a 70% loss over your lifetime but you'll at least have something to show for it | |||
"Been sort of reading this thread and either I have totally misunderstood bitcoin or most if not all people here misunderstand it. As I understand it there is only one way to make bitcoin and that is by mining. Mining being solving increasingly difficult computational problems by writing computer code that is then used to produce more complicated apps. And rather than being paid in a national currency you receive bitcoins and those bitcoins have real value because the apps produced by the code have real world values. People who who invest in bitcoin are buying shares in the accumulated value of the code and apps that have been spawned by mining bitcoin. So in effect dealing in bitcoin is just like dealing in stocks and shares without the banks and stockbrokers taking their cuts for every transaction. If anyone here truly understands bitcoin can they confirm that I have understood the concept correctly please. " There is nothing to do with apps on Bitcoin. As stated above, Bitcoin is generated by a 'mining' process of solving a computationally hard problem. The only reason Bitcoin has a value (above that of the electricity used in the computation for each bitcoin, something like $200) is because everyone can agree at any one instant in time what it is worth. Now, of course, that value changes over time... quite rapidly in the case of bitcoin. The whole 'problem' that bitcoint as a digital currency solved was something called the 'double spend' problem. That is, if a 'coin' is just a sequence of numbers, then how do we prevent me from 'spending' that same coin twice? I could literally copy and paste it and send the same 'coin' to multiple people. How does a bank solve this problem with your debit card? By having a central database (ledger) of transactions. When you go spend £20 on your card at Boots a central database at your bank is updated and £20 is deducted from your balance. So you can't spend that same £20 twice. The problem is that relies on a central database. A one true canonical answer to 'how much money do I have?'. That requires a trusted party (the bank). Boots only trust that you have £20 to spend because they trust the bank to tell them if you don't. You trust the bank to keep a faithful record of your transactions. But what if you didn't want to have to trust a single entity (the bank)? What if I want to buy some hardcore porn that my bank thinks I shouldn't and blocks the transaction because Theresa says I can't? What if we fastforward a few years (or look east), and it's not hardcore porn we are worried about me buying, but a newspaper that dares speak again the government? What if we want a way such that I can pay you some money for something and *no-one* else has to be trusted or consulted? That no-one else could censor that transaction? And that you could guarentee that when I say "I paid you X" that you really did receive X, despite you and I never meeting, not trusting each other necessarily, and being on other sides of the planet. That is the problem that Bitcoin (and the underlying technology, blockchains) allow us to solve. There is a globally distributed 'ledger' of transactions called the blockchain. And if I say 'I sent this person X funds', that it is recorded in this ledger, and it is irrefutable. The way in which that is done, is that a number of transactions are batched up into a 'block' and that block is then digitally signed including the signature of the previous block to form a chain. You can't modify any of the historical transactions in the chain as that would invalidate the signature on all subsequent blocks and be detectable. The way in which they are signed, involves a load of 'miners' around the internet all trying to race to solve a 'hard' problem. Once solved that block is included in the chain. The fact it is 'hard' makes it difficult to be forged by others once done. Something called 'proof of work'. So, that is how Bitcoin works, and the problem it was trying to solve. There have been many derivatives that work in a similar fashion. However currently, due to popularity, the transaction fees, and the time taken for the miners to confirm a block means that a single transaction costs tens of dollars and can take hours to confirm. This means that you can't be using Bitcoin to pay for your morning coffee at Costa. Although other derivatives have solved this problem in various ways. So Bitcoin itself is mainly traded as an investment, and with demand and popularity it's price has gone up. Purely because there is a finite number of them, and the demand is greater than supply. So to get to your question, dealing in bitcoin is a bit like dealing in stocks and shares, without the banks and stockbrokers, but there is a fee to the network as a whole (the miners) that confirm the transactions. The 'apps' you are talking about might be related to another cryptocurrency called Ethereum, which allows for what are called 'smart contracts' to run on the blockchain. These contracts allow you to do more complex transactions. ie. Only transfer the money from me to you, once this date has passed, and Bob says it is OK, and the moon is full. A stupid example, but you can build a lot of complex financial instruments on these primitives.... ...or you can invent CryptoKitties, as an which is like the old style 'tamagotchi' digital pets, but their logic is contained in these smart contracts, and they live 'one the blockchain' and can be traded like a currency (or any collectable, football cards, etc) can. I, personally, am very fond of Ripple, which is another cryptocurrency, which unlike Bitcoin doesn't use 'proof of work' but has a consensus protocol built on a number of validators. Think of it like verifications on here, if enough people say you are legit, then we can conclude you are legit. Ripple, though, has a very specific goal, and that is to solve the problem with cross-border payments. ie. currently if you want to stream a video over the internet from Australia to the UK, you can do instantly. If you wan to make a payment from an Australian company in AUD to a UK company in GBP, then it will take 4 days. You are literally quicker packing a suitcase full of cash and getting on a plane. Ripple are solving this by using a distributed ledger (similar to Bitcoin's blockchain) to allow banks in different countries to send payments between each other in mere seconds. So whilst Bitcoin is very much 'anti-bank'. Ripple realise that banks (in some form or another) are here to stay and instead are working alongside them to make them better and to allow different banks to send payments back and forth much quicker and cheaper. Hope that explains things! -Matt | |||
"Hope that explains things! -Matt" Thanks Mat, CLCC and Gary. | |||
| |||
"I got interested in bitcoin but its rising very slowly Some cryptos are trading at .00002 usd So if you buy at that rate and it goes to 0.002 you have doubled your money" Indeed, the psychology of many people investing in cryptos is a bit backwards. Too many people are saying ‘Bitcoin is worth tens of thousands, I must invest in that!’ As opposed to looking for undervalued coins. Similarly too many people look at the list of cryptocurrencies and buy the green ones and sell the reds. If they are red, that is the time to buy them as they are down. -Matt | |||
"Similarly too many people look at the list of cryptocurrencies and buy the green ones and sell the reds. If they are red, that is the time to buy them as they are down. -Matt" But that is the herd mentality that drives all speculative markets and allows some to make killings by shorting. | |||
| |||
