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Cognitive bias and Brexit
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
A cognitive bias is a mistake in reasoning, evaluating, remembering, or other cognitive process, often occurring as a result of holding onto one's preferences and beliefs regardless of contrary information. Psychologists study cognitive biases as they relate to memory, reasoning, and decision-making.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
This is actually very useful for making quick decisions with limited data. Vital in the hostile world we evolved in. Not so useful for making complex long-term strategic decisions.
EVERYBODY suffers from this so to make good decisions you have to actively question your own motivation and interests and see the other side of any argument.
So here's the exercise.
First list every NEGATIVE aspect about the Brexit argument which YOU SUPPORT.
Second list every POSITIVE argument of the argument that YOU OPPOSE.
That's it. No defence of your view or criticism of what you don't like. There's not even a debate to be bad in this thread. It's a test of yourself.
Let's see who's brave enough. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
This is what I think is objectively the case. Not pure speculation.
The EU is bad because:
In many ways it's financially wasteful.
Much of the upper echelons of its political leadership are taken from the most arrogant, entitled and corrupt aspects of the establishment.
There is a tendency for the Comission to act in a high handed Presidential style to which the UK is not aligned.
Decision making takes an eternity.
The UK is subject to rulings from the ECJ that may not suit government policy.
Free movement has created significant imbalances in income levels with temporary residents being willing to live in poor living conditions whilst sending money home.
The Euro has tied together widely different economies in an unstable
And inappropriate union.
The grand political project of greater union has been pushed despite lacklustre support from national populations.
Brexit could be positive because:
No contribution needs to be made to the EU budget.
The UK can pursue policies that are tailored to its needs.
Trade deals can be concluded without reference to anyone else.
UK tax policy can be modified to encourage increased levels of investment.
Labour market policies can be relaxed to make it easier to hire and fire.
Immigration can be fully controlled.
Government industrial subsidy can be increased to WTO rather than EU limits. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
Reasons for leaving
1 The Eu has become to large and cumbersome to be efficient.
2 Many of the newer countries are economically and socially backward compared to the likes of France,Belgium Germany,Britain etc.By dragging these countries along i t can be holding us back.
3 As nations we all have our own culture snd this is being slowly eroded by unification of laws etc.
4 The legal system takes away a countries individuality.
5 The word of our court should be final it has nothing to do woth otger nations.
6 The european bill of
human rights is fundimentally interfearing with our own valies that have evolved over many years.
7 Like any organisation the larger it becomes the more ineficent it becomes
8 TheEu is not democratic as it is run by self interested beaurocrats.
9 The growth east of the Eu is more to do with politics and trying to weaken the Soviet Union,the result of which has made the Soviets nervous and more agressive and increases the risk of war.
10 The cost of membership is higher than the benefits we recieve these days ad we prop up less advanced economies.
Reasons to stay
1 I do believe that the first couple ofyears after we leave could be rough but the long term benefits make it worthwhile.
2 Control of our own laws
3 The right of free trade with the rest of the world on our own terms.
4 To regain our own identity in this world
5 To use the money we do not pay to the Eu as we wish,ie NHS police etc.
We should of course remain close to the Eu for trade,fight againt terrorism etc.
Yes I truelly believe we should leave,also we democratically voted for this
|
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"Reasons for leaving
1 The Eu has become to large and cumbersome to be efficient.
2 Many of the newer countries are economically and socially backward compared to the likes of France,Belgium Germany,Britain etc.By dragging these countries along i t can be holding us back.
3 As nations we all have our own culture snd this is being slowly eroded by unification of laws etc.
4 The legal system takes away a countries individuality.
5 The word of our court should be final it has nothing to do woth otger nations.
6 The european bill of
human rights is fundimentally interfearing with our own valies that have evolved over many years.
7 Like any organisation the larger it becomes the more ineficent it becomes
8 TheEu is not democratic as it is run by self interested beaurocrats.
9 The growth east of the Eu is more to do with politics and trying to weaken the Soviet Union,the result of which has made the Soviets nervous and more agressive and increases the risk of war.
10 The cost of membership is higher than the benefits we recieve these days ad we prop up less advanced economies.
Reasons to stay
1 I do believe that the first couple ofyears after we leave could be rough but the long term benefits make it worthwhile.
2 Control of our own laws
3 The right of free trade with the rest of the world on our own terms.
4 To regain our own identity in this world
5 To use the money we do not pay to the Eu as we wish,ie NHS police etc.
We should of course remain close to the Eu for trade,fight againt terrorism etc.
Yes I truelly believe we should leave,also we democratically voted for this
"
I think you've missed the point of the thread. It's meant to be about questioning your own biases and believes, not confirming them. As a BREXITer on this thread you should be putting forward any positives you can think of for remaining and the negatives of leaving. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Reasons for leaving
1 The Eu has become to large and cumbersome to be efficient.
2 Many of the newer countries are economically and socially backward compared to the likes of France,Belgium Germany,Britain etc.By dragging these countries along i t can be holding us back.
3 As nations we all have our own culture snd this is being slowly eroded by unification of laws etc.
4 The legal system takes away a countries individuality.
5 The word of our court should be final it has nothing to do woth otger nations.
6 The european bill of
human rights is fundimentally interfearing with our own valies that have evolved over many years.
7 Like any organisation the larger it becomes the more ineficent it becomes
8 TheEu is not democratic as it is run by self interested beaurocrats.
9 The growth east of the Eu is more to do with politics and trying to weaken the Soviet Union,the result of which has made the Soviets nervous and more agressive and increases the risk of war.
10 The cost of membership is higher than the benefits we recieve these days ad we prop up less advanced economies.
Reasons to stay
1 I do believe that the first couple ofyears after we leave could be rough but the long term benefits make it worthwhile.
2 Control of our own laws
3 The right of free trade with the rest of the world on our own terms.
4 To regain our own identity in this world
5 To use the money we do not pay to the Eu as we wish,ie NHS police etc.
We should of course remain close to the Eu for trade,fight againt terrorism etc.
Yes I truelly believe we should leave,also we democratically voted for this
"
I'm afraid that this is pretty much THE definition of cognitive bias. You answered the question that you wanted to.
Please try again. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Reasons for leaving
1 The Eu has become to large and cumbersome to be efficient.
2 Many of the newer countries are economically and socially backward compared to the likes of France,Belgium Germany,Britain etc.By dragging these countries along i t can be holding us back.
3 As nations we all have our own culture snd this is being slowly eroded by unification of laws etc.
4 The legal system takes away a countries individuality.
5 The word of our court should be final it has nothing to do woth otger nations.
6 The european bill of
human rights is fundimentally interfearing with our own valies that have evolved over many years.
7 Like any organisation the larger it becomes the more ineficent it becomes
8 TheEu is not democratic as it is run by self interested beaurocrats.
9 The growth east of the Eu is more to do with politics and trying to weaken the Soviet Union,the result of which has made the Soviets nervous and more agressive and increases the risk of war.
10 The cost of membership is higher than the benefits we recieve these days ad we prop up less advanced economies.
Reasons to stay
1 I do believe that the first couple ofyears after we leave could be rough but the long term benefits make it worthwhile.
2 Control of our own laws
3 The right of free trade with the rest of the world on our own terms.
4 To regain our own identity in this world
5 To use the money we do not pay to the Eu as we wish,ie NHS police etc.
We should of course remain close to the Eu for trade,fight againt terrorism etc.
Yes I truelly believe we should leave,also we democratically voted for this
I think you've missed the point of the thread. It's meant to be about questioning your own biases and believes, not confirming them. As a BREXITer on this thread you should be putting forward any positives you can think of for remaining and the negatives of leaving."
True. This somewhat defines cognitive bias.
You have to play too though. Give me some pro-Brexit thoughts. |
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By *oubepoMan
over a year ago
Spain Portugal France |
"A cognitive bias is a mistake in reasoning, evaluating, remembering, or other cognitive process, often occurring as a result of holding onto one's preferences and beliefs regardless of contrary information. Psychologists study cognitive biases as they relate to memory, reasoning, and decision-making.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
This is actually very useful for making quick decisions with limited data. Vital in the hostile world we evolved in. Not so useful for making complex long-term strategic decisions.
EVERYBODY suffers from this so to make good decisions you have to actively question your own motivation and interests and see the other side of any argument.
So here's the exercise.
First list every NEGATIVE aspect about the Brexit argument which YOU SUPPORT.
Second list every POSITIVE argument of the argument that YOU OPPOSE.
That's it. No defence of your view or criticism of what you don't like. There's not even a debate to be bad in this thread. It's a test of yourself.
Let's see who's brave enough."
I would wager not one single winner in history has ever thought in those terms
|
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"A cognitive bias is a mistake in reasoning, evaluating, remembering, or other cognitive process, often occurring as a result of holding onto one's preferences and beliefs regardless of contrary information. Psychologists study cognitive biases as they relate to memory, reasoning, and decision-making.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
This is actually very useful for making quick decisions with limited data. Vital in the hostile world we evolved in. Not so useful for making complex long-term strategic decisions.
EVERYBODY suffers from this so to make good decisions you have to actively question your own motivation and interests and see the other side of any argument.
So here's the exercise.
First list every NEGATIVE aspect about the Brexit argument which YOU SUPPORT.
Second list every POSITIVE argument of the argument that YOU OPPOSE.
That's it. No defence of your view or criticism of what you don't like. There's not even a debate to be bad in this thread. It's a test of yourself.
Let's see who's brave enough.
I would wager not one single winner in history has ever thought in those terms
"
Really?
So you believe that no victorious general in a battle or campaign tried to think like his opponent and therefore out strategise them?
You think no deal was done by working out what your opposite number wanted so that both sides could get a good outcome?
Apparently so.
Still. Three responses and none of them even vaguely able to actually attempt to see the other side.
Well done  |
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"
True. This somewhat defines cognitive bias.
You have to play too though. Give me some pro-Brexit thoughts."
This probably proves your point better than anything else could have.
But hey, Ill play, I try and read opposition to my own positions enough to make sure I actually am informed and making the right choices. Im sure Centy will be making notes here for future use 
Reasons to oppose Remaining:
The EU is in need of reform but isnt moving in any meaningful way towards it.
Its barrelling to a destination without a clear discussion on the pros and cons and what options are available.
The EU can be slow and cumbersome.
Maintaining an area and population the size of the EU is difficult, particularly with the vast differences in area politics.
Reasons for Brexit:
A highly competent government and civil service could make use of the niche value in being one country alone in some areas.
If national identity is important to you this can bolster it into the future.
There are some areas in regulation that the UK would like to improve on but the EU have been slow to pick up on. |
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"Reasons for leaving
1 The Eu has become to large and cumbersome to be efficient.
2 Many of the newer countries are economically and socially backward compared to the likes of France,Belgium Germany,Britain etc.By dragging these countries along i t can be holding us back.
3 As nations we all have our own culture snd this is being slowly eroded by unification of laws etc.
4 The legal system takes away a countries individuality.
5 The word of our court should be final it has nothing to do woth otger nations.
6 The european bill of
human rights is fundimentally interfearing with our own valies that have evolved over many years.
7 Like any organisation the larger it becomes the more ineficent it becomes
8 TheEu is not democratic as it is run by self interested beaurocrats.
9 The growth east of the Eu is more to do with politics and trying to weaken the Soviet Union,the result of which has made the Soviets nervous and more agressive and increases the risk of war.
10 The cost of membership is higher than the benefits we recieve these days ad we prop up less advanced economies.
Reasons to stay
1 I do believe that the first couple ofyears after we leave could be rough but the long term benefits make it worthwhile.
2 Control of our own laws
3 The right of free trade with the rest of the world on our own terms.
4 To regain our own identity in this world
5 To use the money we do not pay to the Eu as we wish,ie NHS police etc.
We should of course remain close to the Eu for trade,fight againt terrorism etc.
Yes I truelly believe we should leave,also we democratically voted for this
I think you've missed the point of the thread. It's meant to be about questioning your own biases and believes, not confirming them. As a BREXITer on this thread you should be putting forward any positives you can think of for remaining and the negatives of leaving.
True. This somewhat defines cognitive bias.
You have to play too though. Give me some pro-Brexit thoughts."
I'm really struggling with this.  |
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Sorry, I've really tried but I can't think of any upside to BREXIT at all. I don't even agree with _xplicitlyrics comments on this.
Oh, hang on I've just thought of one. If BREXIT actually happens we might actually see the back of Nigel but I don't think that really counts.
The only down side i can think of to remaining is that the EU is constantly reforming and changing itself while heading towards its stated aim of ever closer cooperation and unity with in Europe. Sometimes, in its efforts to achieve this goal, it moves too quickly and rapidly for its constituent parts leading to instability and a feeling of a lack of control by some of its members. Examples of this would be the introduction of the EURO into Southern Europe and talk of a European Army. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I voted remain.There are many positives to leaving.It will force the EU to change for the better.
It will most likely finish the Tories.
It also means the end of UKIP.
Brexit also brought the worst out in people which allows me to see who they really are under the mask.Very refreshing.It made me realize who our friends really are.All positives.
 |
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Okay here goes ...
Reasons for exiting.
I believe in a kind of economics where by spreading the wealth isn’t beneficial
Where the EU spends money in the UK isn’t the best choice
At some point globalisation removes democracy as my views get diluted too much.
I believe sharing a passport with someone gives me more right to any distribution of their wealth. Or more kindly because my nearest and dearest have contributed to society I have first dibs on the spend of their taxes.
I believe the removal of GBP from circulation where others are sending it home is dangerous and offsets the financial benefit of them being here.
I trust the government to make better decisions on my behalf than the EU. Maybe because they feel more accountable to me. Or because the Eu people don’t want the same things as me. Eh my interpretation of human rights and holding governments accountable is very different to that of the Germans.
I believe the interests of our interests outside of the UK are different enough that any benefit of being in a larger pattybfor negotiations is offset by This dilution.
I believe that we can get better deals than then Eu can because of the above. Or because we once ruled them.
How did I do ?
Tbh the cognitive bias most prevalent today is confirmation bias. Where you only read the stats, headlines etc that suit your opinion. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I voted remain.There are many positives to leaving.It will force the EU to change for the better.
It will most likely finish the Tories.
It also means the end of UKIP.
Brexit also brought the worst out in people which allows me to see who they really are under the mask.Very refreshing.It made me realize who our friends really are.All positives.
"
That seemed a little half-hearted.
A bit like when you ask someone in an interview what their weaknesses are and they say that they're too much of a perfectionist.
I think you can do better... |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Okay here goes ...
Reasons for exiting.
I believe in a kind of economics where by spreading the wealth isn’t beneficial
Where the EU spends money in the UK isn’t the best choice
At some point globalisation removes democracy as my views get diluted too much.
I believe sharing a passport with someone gives me more right to any distribution of their wealth. Or more kindly because my nearest and dearest have contributed to society I have first dibs on the spend of their taxes.
I believe the removal of GBP from circulation where others are sending it home is dangerous and offsets the financial benefit of them being here.
I trust the government to make better decisions on my behalf than the EU. Maybe because they feel more accountable to me. Or because the Eu people don’t want the same things as me. Eh my interpretation of human rights and holding governments accountable is very different to that of the Germans.
I believe the interests of our interests outside of the UK are different enough that any benefit of being in a larger pattybfor negotiations is offset by This dilution.
I believe that we can get better deals than then Eu can because of the above. Or because we once ruled them.
How did I do ?
Tbh the cognitive bias most prevalent today is confirmation bias. Where you only read the stats, headlines etc that suit your opinion. "
Depends if you are a leaver or a remainder. What you wrote implies that your beliefs align with leave. If that's the case then you should be presenting the opposing case... |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty"
Are you sure that you read and understood the purpose of this post? |
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"Okay here goes ...
Reasons for exiting.
I believe in a kind of economics where by spreading the wealth isn’t beneficial
Where the EU spends money in the UK isn’t the best choice
At some point globalisation removes democracy as my views get diluted too much.
I believe sharing a passport with someone gives me more right to any distribution of their wealth. Or more kindly because my nearest and dearest have contributed to society I have first dibs on the spend of their taxes.
I believe the removal of GBP from circulation where others are sending it home is dangerous and offsets the financial benefit of them being here.
I trust the government to make better decisions on my behalf than the EU. Maybe because they feel more accountable to me. Or because the Eu people don’t want the same things as me. Eh my interpretation of human rights and holding governments accountable is very different to that of the Germans.
I believe the interests of our interests outside of the UK are different enough that any benefit of being in a larger pattybfor negotiations is offset by This dilution.
I believe that we can get better deals than then Eu can because of the above. Or because we once ruled them.
How did I do ?
Tbh the cognitive bias most prevalent today is confirmation bias. Where you only read the stats, headlines etc that suit your opinion.
Depends if you are a leaver or a remainder. What you wrote implies that your beliefs align with leave. If that's the case then you should be presenting the opposing case..."
I’m remain. Will take that as a compliment ! Lil |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty"
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them  |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them "
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT. |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT. "
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise! |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT. "
the irony of you trying to pull someone up on here for misquoting
|
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise! "
Many newspapers reported on the £100 billion figure and stated that the £100 billion figure had come from EU source's.
Even people like you thought the final figure would be in excess of £50 billion as you were throwing around figures of £50 and £60 billion on here in the weeks and months leading upto last Fridays agreement. You must feel pretty stupid now the real official figure has been confirmed at between £35 and £39 billion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise!
Many newspapers reported on the £100 billion figure and stated that the £100 billion figure had come from EU source's.
Even people like you thought the final figure would be in excess of £50 billion as you were throwing around figures of £50 and £60 billion on here in the weeks and months leading upto last Fridays agreement. You must feel pretty stupid now the real official figure has been confirmed at between £35 and £39 billion. "
But you said we owe nothing? |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise!
Many newspapers reported on the £100 billion figure and stated that the £100 billion figure had come from EU source's.
Even people like you thought the final figure would be in excess of £50 billion as you were throwing around figures of £50 and £60 billion on here in the weeks and months leading upto last Fridays agreement. You must feel pretty stupid now the real official figure has been confirmed at between £35 and £39 billion. "
Actually the UKs estimate left out things like the bailout guarantee despite the UK agreeing to pay that. Its not the only thing they left out of their estimate but that alone puts them over €50bn.
I said all along the UK would find ways to bring down the final reported figure and hide the real figure and they did.
I pointed out that EU officials said that the UK were looking for help to report a lower figure than the real one and the EU said they didnt give a damn what figure the UK put out there because they got everything they wanted.
But if you want to try and argue who was right and who was wrong its very simple. Just answer this straightforward question: Did the UKs estimate include the cost of bailout guarantees (contingent liabilities) they agreed to or not?
This figure is €11.5bn on its own.
Not to mention their *estimate* is based on the pound staying historically weaker against the euro, it also assumes that EU projects will be cancelled at a far higher rate than usual to bring down the price and it also used a nonstandard discounting method (not used by either the EU or UK previously) to decrease their estimated costs on pensions.
I said the Tories would collapse and they did. I said the total bill would be €50bn+ and it is. I said the UK would hide the total as best it could for political purposes and they did. And we all knew you'd swallow it because it suits you and you did. |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise!
Many newspapers reported on the £100 billion figure and stated that the £100 billion figure had come from EU source's.
Even people like you thought the final figure would be in excess of £50 billion as you were throwing around figures of £50 and £60 billion on here in the weeks and months leading upto last Fridays agreement. You must feel pretty stupid now the real official figure has been confirmed at between £35 and £39 billion.
But you said we owe nothing?"
I said we'd pay nothing in the event of No deal and I still stand by that. In fact it was confirmed by Brexit secretary David Davis on the BBC Andrew Marr show last Sunday when he said the Divorce bill is only payable on condition the UK gets a free trade agreement with the EU. We leave without a deal then we don't pay it. Not only that the Prime Minister Theresa May added more clarity that would be the case when she made a statement on the agreement yesterday in The House of Commons where she said the divorce bill would only be paid if a free trade agreement is reached with the EU. I think it was the Labour MP Hillary Benn who specifically asked the prime minister yesterday if we leave without a deal do we still pay the divorce bill and the Prime minister said no we only pay the divorce bill upon reaching a free trade deal with the EU. No Deal then we don't pay a divorce bill. |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise!
Many newspapers reported on the £100 billion figure and stated that the £100 billion figure had come from EU source's.
Even people like you thought the final figure would be in excess of £50 billion as you were throwing around figures of £50 and £60 billion on here in the weeks and months leading upto last Fridays agreement. You must feel pretty stupid now the real official figure has been confirmed at between £35 and £39 billion.
Actually the UKs estimate left out things like the bailout guarantee despite the UK agreeing to pay that. Its not the only thing they left out of their estimate but that alone puts them over €50bn.
I said all along the UK would find ways to bring down the final reported figure and hide the real figure and they did.
I pointed out that EU officials said that the UK were looking for help to report a lower figure than the real one and the EU said they didnt give a damn what figure the UK put out there because they got everything they wanted.
But if you want to try and argue who was right and who was wrong its very simple. Just answer this straightforward question: Did the UKs estimate include the cost of bailout guarantees (contingent liabilities) they agreed to or not?
This figure is €11.5bn on its own.
Not to mention their *estimate* is based on the pound staying historically weaker against the euro, it also assumes that EU projects will be cancelled at a far higher rate than usual to bring down the price and it also used a nonstandard discounting method (not used by either the EU or UK previously) to decrease their estimated costs on pensions.
I said the Tories would collapse and they did. I said the total bill would be €50bn+ and it is. I said the UK would hide the total as best it could for political purposes and they did. And we all knew you'd swallow it because it suits you and you did."
The Facts have been reported about the agreement. The OFFICIAL divorce bill has been announced at between £35 and £39 billion pounds sterling. Stick your head in the sand and deny it all you like it won't change the facts. I said last Friday you'd be in denial about being proved wrong about this and I was right, you were wrong, and you are still in denial. |
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"
The Facts have been reported about the agreement. The OFFICIAL divorce bill has been announced at between £35 and £39 billion pounds sterling. Stick your head in the sand and deny it all you like it won't change the facts. I said last Friday you'd be in denial about being proved wrong about this and I was right, you were wrong, and you are still in denial. "
Centaur, you know why you've a reputation for being a dishonest spin merchant and I dont? Its because you routinely misrepresnt the situation and I dont.
There is no OFFICIAL divorce bill. The UK and EU have agreed that the UK will pay the full amount of everything that they owe as it falls due rather than a lump sum before Brexit. The UK gave their ESTIMATE of what theyd owe and asked the EU not to release their estimate because it would be much higher for the reasons I pointed out.
If its me sticking my head in the sand and not you then how come you avoided answering a simple direct question I asked you?
Did the UK agree €11.5bn in contigency liabilities and was this figure included in their eatimate?
Its a simple yes or no question. Either they did or didnt.
But then we all know you cant answer something directly and honestly and you'll go back to your spin instead in the vain hope someone other than Pat will be deluded enough to agree with you. |
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"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
David Davis confirmed that the EU never stated a figure to them in negotiations.
The EU never stated a figure publicly.
The FTs 100mn was their own estimate which they said in their piece.
The EU only presented a formula for working out what was owed and the UK eventually agreed with it fully.
You not taking part in the OPs little experiment Centaur? Quelle suprise!
Many newspapers reported on the £100 billion figure and stated that the £100 billion figure had come from EU source's.
Even people like you thought the final figure would be in excess of £50 billion as you were throwing around figures of £50 and £60 billion on here in the weeks and months leading upto last Fridays agreement. You must feel pretty stupid now the real official figure has been confirmed at between £35 and £39 billion.
Actually the UKs estimate left out things like the bailout guarantee despite the UK agreeing to pay that. Its not the only thing they left out of their estimate but that alone puts them over €50bn.
I said all along the UK would find ways to bring down the final reported figure and hide the real figure and they did.
I pointed out that EU officials said that the UK were looking for help to report a lower figure than the real one and the EU said they didnt give a damn what figure the UK put out there because they got everything they wanted.
But if you want to try and argue who was right and who was wrong its very simple. Just answer this straightforward question: Did the UKs estimate include the cost of bailout guarantees (contingent liabilities) they agreed to or not?
This figure is €11.5bn on its own.
Not to mention their *estimate* is based on the pound staying historically weaker against the euro, it also assumes that EU projects will be cancelled at a far higher rate than usual to bring down the price and it also used a nonstandard discounting method (not used by either the EU or UK previously) to decrease their estimated costs on pensions.
I said the Tories would collapse and they did. I said the total bill would be €50bn+ and it is. I said the UK would hide the total as best it could for political purposes and they did. And we all knew you'd swallow it because it suits you and you did.
The Facts have been reported about the agreement. The OFFICIAL divorce bill has been announced at between £35 and £39 billion pounds sterling. Stick your head in the sand and deny it all you like it won't change the facts. I said last Friday you'd be in denial about being proved wrong about this and I was right, you were wrong, and you are still in denial. "
Your wrong fella do you honestly believe with all theese quotes about DAVID Davies on the Andrew marr show said this do you believe them if so it was said that on the children’s channel there’s a real Father Christmas I believe I guess you believe that get in the real world for gods sake
Your posts are the same old garbage day after day useless and full of lies and fantasy |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The confirmation bias in his thread is delicious. "
Quite.
Are any of you actually capable of reading and understanding the point of the post and actually doing what was requested?
All roaring like lions and all too cowardly to actually look at yourselves |
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"The confirmation bias in his thread is delicious.
Quite.
Are any of you actually capable of reading and understanding the point of the post and actually doing what was requested?
All roaring like lions and all too cowardly to actually look at yourselves "
Well I did, but I think getting the likes of Centaur to do it would be like convincing a pig to fly.
Most people dont want to think about the fact that what they think might be wrong because at this stage theyve internalised their views and to admit their opinions are flawed would be to admit they themselves are flawed.
Staying out of echo chambers is increasingly difficult, its why we see so many former brexiters just avoiding the politics forum altogether as the realitys keep hitting hard. Its become impossible to argue its a net benefit if your sticking to the facts so its better to avoid that altogether than admit you were wrong.
Its also the reason we see Pat disregard every single piece of information he disagrees with as "biased" and Centaur spinning everything beyond what even politicians would consider acceptable. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I would like people to be outraged at the 39 billion being agreed to be paid, whilst people are living on low wages and many chilsren living in poverty
Boris Johnston said the EU could whistle for it. He showed them
If you're going to quote someone then please use the full quote. Boris Johnson said the EU could go whistle for 'extortionate' amounts. I take it he was referring at the time to the £100 billion figure the EU first stated off circulating that was reported in newspapers like the FT.
the irony of you trying to pull someone up on here for misquoting
"
If you're on the thread, please play the game. Otherwise what's the point? |
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It's interesting how such a universally imposed cognitive restriction, once people are subjected to revealing how they are affected by it, subsequently resist such exposure.
It's almost as if admission of a blind spot - that all have - makes us feel too vulnerable to want to do it.
I think that many of our cognitive biases have been in very active deployment since before the vote until now. It's a sobering thought that each of us can get things remarkably wrong. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"It's interesting how such a universally imposed cognitive restriction, once people are subjected to revealing how they are affected by it, subsequently resist such exposure.
It's almost as if admission of a blind spot - that all have - makes us feel too vulnerable to want to do it.
I think that many of our cognitive biases have been in very active deployment since before the vote until now. It's a sobering thought that each of us can get things remarkably wrong. "
Which brings me to asking you to carry out the exercise too  |
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"...
First list every NEGATIVE aspect about the Brexit argument which YOU SUPPORT.
Second list every POSITIVE argument of the argument that YOU OPPOSE.
That's it. No defence of your view or criticism of what you don't like.
."
NEGATIVE -
1. There's a financial cost of being an EU member
2. People are angry about competition with other EU nationalities for jobs in the UK.
3. Racism and attacks have increased against EU visitors
POSITIVES
1. Some UK state costs may be reduced
I've tried to think of more but struggling. I also hope that I've interpreted the instructions right
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"This didn't go very far. Was it the guidance not to spin, argue etc that prevented some people? "
I've been wracking my brains wanting to answer, but honestly can't come up with much. I think my list would look something like yours.
I could probably right a longer list of negative aspects of the campaign I supported, and positives of the opposing campaign, but that is not quite the same thing, and I don't think would actually be that helpful.
-Matt |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"This didn't go very far. Was it the guidance not to spin, argue etc that prevented some people?
I've been wracking my brains wanting to answer, but honestly can't come up with much. I think my list would look something like yours.
I could probably right a longer list of negative aspects of the campaign I supported, and positives of the opposing campaign, but that is not quite the same thing, and I don't think would actually be that helpful.
-Matt"
Actually going through the exercise of writing it out is quite therapeutic  |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"This didn't go very far. Was it the guidance not to spin, argue etc that prevented some people? "
I'm definitely getting that impression.
No Leavers has actually succeeded so far. That's particularly disappointing  |
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"This didn't go very far. Was it the guidance not to spin, argue etc that prevented some people?
I'm definitely getting that impression.
No Leavers has actually succeeded so far. That's particularly disappointing "
Surely the leaver's most vociferous bunch haven't been able to resist spouting intelligent thought? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
If you voted leave your cognitive biases were confirmed by the referendum result.Now brexiters see it all unraveling they double down their biases .
Hence making it harder for leave to comment here.
Maybe some one will |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
I've been watching this thread with interest and am not in the slightest bit surprised that Brexiters have been unable to take part and understand the questions.
I'm sure most will be aware that I am pro-Remain, but in the spirit of the the thread, here are some things I dislike about the EU, or reasons why it's good we are leaving.
1. The data on who voted showed that it was lower educated people that tended to vote for Brexit, and these people came from socially economically deprived areas. These people and these areas are the ones who are going to be most effected by Brexit. In someways turkies who vote for Christmas deserve to get eaten. Maybe it will lead to greater political engagement.
2. Leaving the EU will give people one less excuse to use. They will still be able to blame foreigners and health and safety or PC gone mad, but at least they won't be able to blame the EU anymore.
3. Politicians will have to face greater scrutiny. If it's just our own MP setting farm subsidies or fishing quotas etc. Everyone will know who to blame, and the politicians won't be able to blame it on the EU.
4. Hopefully it will be the end of UKIP. They are a vicious party which spread hatred like a cancer through this country. With us out of the EU, they will have no MEPs, still no MPs, and hopefully will be consigned to the footnotes of history.
5. I think that many people voted for Brexit due to immigration (supported by the data). If we want the economy to grow, we will likely still need immigrants. I think it will be quite funny for those who voted for Brexit because of immigration to see white European Christians replaced by Asian and African Sikhs and Muslims. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"I've been watching this thread with interest and am not in the slightest bit surprised that Brexiters have been unable to take part and understand the questions.
I'm sure most will be aware that I am pro-Remain, but in the spirit of the the thread, here are some things I dislike about the EU, or reasons why it's good we are leaving.
1. The data on who voted showed that it was lower educated people that tended to vote for Brexit, and these people came from socially economically deprived areas. These people and these areas are the ones who are going to be most effected by Brexit. In someways turkies who vote for Christmas deserve to get eaten. Maybe it will lead to greater political engagement.
2. Leaving the EU will give people one less excuse to use. They will still be able to blame foreigners and health and safety or PC gone mad, but at least they won't be able to blame the EU anymore.
3. Politicians will have to face greater scrutiny. If it's just our own MP setting farm subsidies or fishing quotas etc. Everyone will know who to blame, and the politicians won't be able to blame it on the EU.
4. Hopefully it will be the end of UKIP. They are a vicious party which spread hatred like a cancer through this country. With us out of the EU, they will have no MEPs, still no MPs, and hopefully will be consigned to the footnotes of history.
5. I think that many people voted for Brexit due to immigration (supported by the data). If we want the economy to grow, we will likely still need immigrants. I think it will be quite funny for those who voted for Brexit because of immigration to see white European Christians replaced by Asian and African Sikhs and Muslims."
You have little grasp of the concept either. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I've been watching this thread with interest and am not in the slightest bit surprised that Brexiters have been unable to take part and understand the questions.
I'm sure most will be aware that I am pro-Remain, but in the spirit of the the thread, here are some things I dislike about the EU, or reasons why it's good we are leaving.
1. The data on who voted showed that it was lower educated people that tended to vote for Brexit, and these people came from socially economically deprived areas. These people and these areas are the ones who are going to be most effected by Brexit. In someways turkies who vote for Christmas deserve to get eaten. Maybe it will lead to greater political engagement.
2. Leaving the EU will give people one less excuse to use. They will still be able to blame foreigners and health and safety or PC gone mad, but at least they won't be able to blame the EU anymore.
3. Politicians will have to face greater scrutiny. If it's just our own MP setting farm subsidies or fishing quotas etc. Everyone will know who to blame, and the politicians won't be able to blame it on the EU.
4. Hopefully it will be the end of UKIP. They are a vicious party which spread hatred like a cancer through this country. With us out of the EU, they will have no MEPs, still no MPs, and hopefully will be consigned to the footnotes of history.
5. I think that many people voted for Brexit due to immigration (supported by the data). If we want the economy to grow, we will likely still need immigrants. I think it will be quite funny for those who voted for Brexit because of immigration to see white European Christians replaced by Asian and African Sikhs and Muslims."
I think that was a bit of a fail.
Don't do it half heartedly... |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I've been watching this thread with interest and am not in the slightest bit surprised that Brexiters have been unable to take part and understand the questions.
I'm sure most will be aware that I am pro-Remain, but in the spirit of the the thread, here are some things I dislike about the EU, or reasons why it's good we are leaving.
1. The data on who voted showed that it was lower educated people that tended to vote for Brexit, and these people came from socially economically deprived areas. These people and these areas are the ones who are going to be most effected by Brexit. In someways turkies who vote for Christmas deserve to get eaten. Maybe it will lead to greater political engagement.
2. Leaving the EU will give people one less excuse to use. They will still be able to blame foreigners and health and safety or PC gone mad, but at least they won't be able to blame the EU anymore.
3. Politicians will have to face greater scrutiny. If it's just our own MP setting farm subsidies or fishing quotas etc. Everyone will know who to blame, and the politicians won't be able to blame it on the EU.
4. Hopefully it will be the end of UKIP. They are a vicious party which spread hatred like a cancer through this country. With us out of the EU, they will have no MEPs, still no MPs, and hopefully will be consigned to the footnotes of history.
5. I think that many people voted for Brexit due to immigration (supported by the data). If we want the economy to grow, we will likely still need immigrants. I think it will be quite funny for those who voted for Brexit because of immigration to see white European Christians replaced by Asian and African Sikhs and Muslims.
You have little grasp of the concept either."
Do you think that you're playing the game? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"I've been watching this thread with interest and am not in the slightest bit surprised that Brexiters have been unable to take part and understand the questions.
I'm sure most will be aware that I am pro-Remain, but in the spirit of the the thread, here are some things I dislike about the EU, or reasons why it's good we are leaving.
1. The data on who voted showed that it was lower educated people that tended to vote for Brexit, and these people came from socially economically deprived areas. These people and these areas are the ones who are going to be most effected by Brexit. In someways turkies who vote for Christmas deserve to get eaten. Maybe it will lead to greater political engagement.
2. Leaving the EU will give people one less excuse to use. They will still be able to blame foreigners and health and safety or PC gone mad, but at least they won't be able to blame the EU anymore.
3. Politicians will have to face greater scrutiny. If it's just our own MP setting farm subsidies or fishing quotas etc. Everyone will know who to blame, and the politicians won't be able to blame it on the EU.
4. Hopefully it will be the end of UKIP. They are a vicious party which spread hatred like a cancer through this country. With us out of the EU, they will have no MEPs, still no MPs, and hopefully will be consigned to the footnotes of history.
5. I think that many people voted for Brexit due to immigration (supported by the data). If we want the economy to grow, we will likely still need immigrants. I think it will be quite funny for those who voted for Brexit because of immigration to see white European Christians replaced by Asian and African Sikhs and Muslims.
I think that was a bit of a fail.
Don't do it half heartedly..."
What's half hearted about it? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I've been watching this thread with interest and am not in the slightest bit surprised that Brexiters have been unable to take part and understand the questions.
I'm sure most will be aware that I am pro-Remain, but in the spirit of the the thread, here are some things I dislike about the EU, or reasons why it's good we are leaving.
1. The data on who voted showed that it was lower educated people that tended to vote for Brexit, and these people came from socially economically deprived areas. These people and these areas are the ones who are going to be most effected by Brexit. In someways turkies who vote for Christmas deserve to get eaten. Maybe it will lead to greater political engagement.
2. Leaving the EU will give people one less excuse to use. They will still be able to blame foreigners and health and safety or PC gone mad, but at least they won't be able to blame the EU anymore.
3. Politicians will have to face greater scrutiny. If it's just our own MP setting farm subsidies or fishing quotas etc. Everyone will know who to blame, and the politicians won't be able to blame it on the EU.
4. Hopefully it will be the end of UKIP. They are a vicious party which spread hatred like a cancer through this country. With us out of the EU, they will have no MEPs, still no MPs, and hopefully will be consigned to the footnotes of history.
5. I think that many people voted for Brexit due to immigration (supported by the data). If we want the economy to grow, we will likely still need immigrants. I think it will be quite funny for those who voted for Brexit because of immigration to see white European Christians replaced by Asian and African Sikhs and Muslims.
I think that was a bit of a fail.
Don't do it half heartedly...
What's half hearted about it?"
If you read through each positive point that,you have made is written as a mitigation for something negative.
The idea is to try to put your own view of the situation to one side. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I thought this was about not criticising what people wrote?"
The thread is not intended to be an argument about Brexit.
However, the point is for everyone to try to look at the other side of the argument. If I don't think that's being done I will say otherwise nothing is learned. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Ok I'll have another go.
Brexiters are correct that the EU is a slow inefficient beast that moves to slow for the 21st century. It's also a gravy train for member states in terms of subsidies.The euro is not beneficial to all members of the EU only the industrial nations benfit.The EU states seem to be swinging further to the right than the UK.Austria and Germany are heading to the extreme right unlike the UK.Brexit will also save us money in time.Brexit won't end multiculturalism it will expand our diversity here.Many countries would like us to fail and carve up our collective wealth.This won't happen because we are one of the most innovative countries in the history of the world. |
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"Still no Brexiteers managing a meaningful post on here.
How can you have such a strong belief in something if you don't ever challenge it? Oh... "
They might be struggling to get their heads around the concept of them having cognitive fallibilities and the existential crisis that would arise from having made imperfect decisions. |
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I voted out... Because I am a Europhile...
Everything about brexit is a negative from the British standpoint, but until we all experience its reality we will never be able to fully embrace the EU. Therefore we have to endure the pain that is sneaking up on us and watch our economy crumble for the sake of the hubris of nationalism. Just like Germany and Japan were unable to stop fighting in 1944 when it was obvious they were doomed but were forced by fanaticism to continue inflicting great damage on themselves because their opinion makers believed themselves invincible.
There are many positives for Britain in remaining in the EU, but they are far outweighed by the positive for the EU in ditching the country that has opposed every step toward full integration, has demanded special treatment and opt-out with regular monotony since Thatcher said 'None, None, None'. The EU will prosper without us while we will slowly fade away to be a chapter in history like most failed empires.
Guess in this case your test does not really apply to me OP as my position is a bit of a conundrum and contradiction on this issue. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I voted out... Because I am a Europhile...
Everything about brexit is a negative from the British standpoint, but until we all experience its reality we will never be able to fully embrace the EU. Therefore we have to endure the pain that is sneaking up on us and watch our economy crumble for the sake of the hubris of nationalism. Just like Germany and Japan were unable to stop fighting in 1944 when it was obvious they were doomed but were forced by fanaticism to continue inflicting great damage on themselves because their opinion makers believed themselves invincible.
There are many positives for Britain in remaining in the EU, but they are far outweighed by the positive for the EU in ditching the country that has opposed every step toward full integration, has demanded special treatment and opt-out with regular monotony since Thatcher said 'None, None, None'. The EU will prosper without us while we will slowly fade away to be a chapter in history like most failed empires.
Guess in this case your test does not really apply to me OP as my position is a bit of a conundrum and contradiction on this issue."
Not really. You voted leave, but you are a remainer.
What would be good about leaving and what would be bad about staying?
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I voted out, I stand by it.
If everything goes tits up so be it, I work in a job that will be the first to go tits up if the economy nose dives.
I'll take that if it means the next generation of my family doesn't have to suffer from eu bullshit like we do.
Thatcher the milk snatcher has fuck all on Brussels
|
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"I voted out, I stand by it.
If everything goes tits up so be it, I work in a job that will be the first to go tits up if the economy nose dives.
I'll take that if it means the next generation of my family doesn't have to suffer from eu bullshit like we do.
Thatcher the milk snatcher has fuck all on Brussels
"
At the risk of derailing a slowing down thread ...
What Eu bullshit in particular ? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I voted out, I stand by it.
If everything goes tits up so be it, I work in a job that will be the first to go tits up if the economy nose dives.
I'll take that if it means the next generation of my family doesn't have to suffer from eu bullshit like we do.
Thatcher the milk snatcher has fuck all on Brussels
"
Have you read the purpose of the thread?
Fancy trying?
Do you want change? Are you able to change? |
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"The mouthy lot kept quiet for once. "
Its actually hilarious that none of the usual Brexiters are even attempting this. Its almost as if they know theyre wrong but cant admit it because of their pride |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"The mouthy lot kept quiet for once.
Its actually hilarious that none of the usual Brexiters are even attempting this. Its almost as if they know theyre wrong but cant admit it because of their pride "
Disappointing though. It demonstrates the problem unfortunately  |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
Let's not make this a negative thread though.
Just please pass on the link to this thread as a challenge when there is a refusal to look at another perspective.
That goes for either side of any argument. |
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"Not really. You voted leave, but you are a remainer.
What would be good about leaving and what would be bad about staying?
"
As I said, leaving will force us to realise we no longer rule the world and our only positive future is by being a fully integrated part of the EU and at the forefront of the drive for greater integration and federalisation.
Again as I said, staying means that that we are protected from the realities of the modern world by our 'special' membership of the EU, and the very nature of our 'special' deal with it opt-outs means that we act as an anchor and break on EU integration and federalisation.
So as I said I think I may be an exception that proves a rule,. Because what I see as a positive for the UK many would consider a negative, and what i see as a negative many would see as a positive. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Not really. You voted leave, but you are a remainer.
What would be good about leaving and what would be bad about staying?
As I said, leaving will force us to realise we no longer rule the world and our only positive future is by being a fully integrated part of the EU and at the forefront of the drive for greater integration and federalisation.
Again as I said, staying means that that we are protected from the realities of the modern world by our 'special' membership of the EU, and the very nature of our 'special' deal with it opt-outs means that we act as an anchor and break on EU integration and federalisation.
So as I said I think I may be an exception that proves a rule,. Because what I see as a positive for the UK many would consider a negative, and what i see as a negative many would see as a positive."
I understand what you are saying, but my intention is for you to look at the other perspective. The actual Brexit view, not your takes on the pros and cons. Otherwise you aren't really embracing this. I think you know my intention
As a true red, white and blue Brexiteer, what of their hopes for the process could be positive?
What is wrong with the EU as it now exists and is heading? |
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"Not really. You voted leave, but you are a remainer.
What would be good about leaving and what would be bad about staying?
As I said, leaving will force us to realise we no longer rule the world and our only positive future is by being a fully integrated part of the EU and at the forefront of the drive for greater integration and federalisation.
Again as I said, staying means that that we are protected from the realities of the modern world by our 'special' membership of the EU, and the very nature of our 'special' deal with it opt-outs means that we act as an anchor and break on EU integration and federalisation.
So as I said I think I may be an exception that proves a rule,. Because what I see as a positive for the UK many would consider a negative, and what i see as a negative many would see as a positive."
Whilst I failed on this myself because I really couldn't see any advantage in BREXIT that I couldn't see more of a disadvantage I can point out how you could try.
For you the challenge would be to put forward the disadvantages of a Federal European Union and the advantages of staying as we were before the referendum. |
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"For you the challenge would be to put forward the disadvantages of a Federal European Union and the advantages of staying as we were before the referendum."
The only disadvantage in the formation of Federal European Union that I can see is that in its formation another more remote layer of government, Legislature, bureaucracy and Judiciary are required (and that is what the Council of Ministers, European Parliament, Brussels and the European Court are).
The advantages of an FEU are those of scale. Fact is while EU countries may be economically strong if the USA, China or even Russia decide to harm any individual country they can squash them. There is a reason for the saying that if the USA sneezes the UK catches a cold. Of course the is always the fact that the larger the political pool the more moderate the policies tend to be. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"For you the challenge would be to put forward the disadvantages of a Federal European Union and the advantages of staying as we were before the referendum.
The only disadvantage in the formation of Federal European Union that I can see is that in its formation another more remote layer of government, Legislature, bureaucracy and Judiciary are required (and that is what the Council of Ministers, European Parliament, Brussels and the European Court are).
The advantages of an FEU are those of scale. Fact is while EU countries may be economically strong if the USA, China or even Russia decide to harm any individual country they can squash them. There is a reason for the saying that if the USA sneezes the UK catches a cold. Of course the is always the fact that the larger the political pool the more moderate the policies tend to be."
That was a promising start...then you went and made your point, thus missing the point |
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It's very hard, when it's likely that we evolved to have these cognitive biases, with adaptive benefits - we're trying to undo and fight against that which can serve us well, or has in the past as a species.
Typically these biases will be active and at work for things that we can take quick decisions upon, rather than using involved elaborate thinking - much of the minutiae of our living, rather than the fewer political decisions we take. |
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"Question
...if 27 adults lived in your house ....but only 5 paid into the upkeep...bills etc....how long would u put up with it ..
Xxx"
Reveal your unconscious cognitive biases - your post makes absolutely no intelligent addition to the topic. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
I'm bumping this thread.
There are several new posters on the forum with strong opinions. Several existing ones also failed to post.
If you are unable to post on this thread as intended I will feel quite justified in calling your loud shouts as empty due to your inability to question your own thoughts and ideas.
I would ask nobody to respond to baiting or arguments on this thread. It's just the ability to respond with some honesty that is being requested.
The challenge is up. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"This is what I think is objectively the case. Not pure speculation.
The EU is bad because:
In many ways it's financially wasteful.
Much of the upper echelons of its political leadership are taken from the most arrogant, entitled and corrupt aspects of the establishment.
There is a tendency for the Comission to act in a high handed Presidential style to which the UK is not aligned.
Decision making takes an eternity.
The UK is subject to rulings from the ECJ that may not suit government policy.
Free movement has created significant imbalances in income levels with temporary residents being willing to live in poor living conditions whilst sending money home.
The Euro has tied together widely different economies in an unstable
And inappropriate union.
The grand political project of greater union has been pushed despite lacklustre support from national populations.
Brexit could be positive because:
No contribution needs to be made to the EU budget.
The UK can pursue policies that are tailored to its needs.
Trade deals can be concluded without reference to anyone else.
UK tax policy can be modified to encourage increased levels of investment.
Labour market policies can be relaxed to make it easier to hire and fire.
Immigration can be fully controlled.
Government industrial subsidy can be increased to WTO rather than EU limits."
 |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"This is what I think is objectively the case. Not pure speculation.
The EU is bad because:
In many ways it's financially wasteful.
Much of the upper echelons of its political leadership are taken from the most arrogant, entitled and corrupt aspects of the establishment.
There is a tendency for the Comission to act in a high handed Presidential style to which the UK is not aligned.
Decision making takes an eternity.
The UK is subject to rulings from the ECJ that may not suit government policy.
Free movement has created significant imbalances in income levels with temporary residents being willing to live in poor living conditions whilst sending money home.
The Euro has tied together widely different economies in an unstable
And inappropriate union.
The grand political project of greater union has been pushed despite lacklustre support from national populations.
Brexit could be positive because:
No contribution needs to be made to the EU budget.
The UK can pursue policies that are tailored to its needs.
Trade deals can be concluded without reference to anyone else.
UK tax policy can be modified to encourage increased levels of investment.
Labour market policies can be relaxed to make it easier to hire and fire.
Immigration can be fully controlled.
Government industrial subsidy can be increased to WTO rather than EU limits. "
Do you get the point of the thread?
You voted to leave so please give the case to remain. You've already got tis completely wrong once before... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"This is what I think is objectively the case. Not pure speculation.
The EU is bad because:
In many ways it's financially wasteful.
Much of the upper echelons of its political leadership are taken from the most arrogant, entitled and corrupt aspects of the establishment.
There is a tendency for the Comission to act in a high handed Presidential style to which the UK is not aligned.
Decision making takes an eternity.
The UK is subject to rulings from the ECJ that may not suit government policy.
Free movement has created significant imbalances in income levels with temporary residents being willing to live in poor living conditions whilst sending money home.
The Euro has tied together widely different economies in an unstable
And inappropriate union.
The grand political project of greater union has been pushed despite lacklustre support from national populations.
Brexit could be positive because:
No contribution needs to be made to the EU budget.
The UK can pursue policies that are tailored to its needs.
Trade deals can be concluded without reference to anyone else.
UK tax policy can be modified to encourage increased levels of investment.
Labour market policies can be relaxed to make it easier to hire and fire.
Immigration can be fully controlled.
Government industrial subsidy can be increased to WTO rather than EU limits.
Do you get the point of the thread?
You voted to leave so please give the case to remain. You've already got tis completely wrong once before..."
There isn’t one |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"This is what I think is objectively the case. Not pure speculation.
The EU is bad because:
In many ways it's financially wasteful.
Much of the upper echelons of its political leadership are taken from the most arrogant, entitled and corrupt aspects of the establishment.
There is a tendency for the Comission to act in a high handed Presidential style to which the UK is not aligned.
Decision making takes an eternity.
The UK is subject to rulings from the ECJ that may not suit government policy.
Free movement has created significant imbalances in income levels with temporary residents being willing to live in poor living conditions whilst sending money home.
The Euro has tied together widely different economies in an unstable
And inappropriate union.
The grand political project of greater union has been pushed despite lacklustre support from national populations.
Brexit could be positive because:
No contribution needs to be made to the EU budget.
The UK can pursue policies that are tailored to its needs.
Trade deals can be concluded without reference to anyone else.
UK tax policy can be modified to encourage increased levels of investment.
Labour market policies can be relaxed to make it easier to hire and fire.
Immigration can be fully controlled.
Government industrial subsidy can be increased to WTO rather than EU limits.
Do you get the point of the thread?
You voted to leave so please give the case to remain. You've already got tis completely wrong once before...
There isn’t one "
If you can't engage with a topic
don't post then Centaur v2.
Your failure has been noted with disappointment but not surprise. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"This is what I think is objectively the case. Not pure speculation.
The EU is bad because:
In many ways it's financially wasteful.
Much of the upper echelons of its political leadership are taken from the most arrogant, entitled and corrupt aspects of the establishment.
There is a tendency for the Comission to act in a high handed Presidential style to which the UK is not aligned.
Decision making takes an eternity.
The UK is subject to rulings from the ECJ that may not suit government policy.
Free movement has created significant imbalances in income levels with temporary residents being willing to live in poor living conditions whilst sending money home.
The Euro has tied together widely different economies in an unstable
And inappropriate union.
The grand political project of greater union has been pushed despite lacklustre support from national populations.
Brexit could be positive because:
No contribution needs to be made to the EU budget.
The UK can pursue policies that are tailored to its needs.
Trade deals can be concluded without reference to anyone else.
UK tax policy can be modified to encourage increased levels of investment.
Labour market policies can be relaxed to make it easier to hire and fire.
Immigration can be fully controlled.
Government industrial subsidy can be increased to WTO rather than EU limits.
Do you get the point of the thread?
You voted to leave so please give the case to remain. You've already got tis completely wrong once before...
There isn’t one
If you can't engage with a topic
don't post then Centaur v2.
Your failure has been noted with disappointment but not surprise."
I have engaged with the topic and in my opinion there isn’t one. If that disappoints you too bad. Would it make you feel better if I made something up? |
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"I'm bumping this thread.
There are several new posters on the forum with strong opinions. Several existing ones also failed to post.
If you are unable to post on this thread as intended I will feel quite justified in calling your loud shouts as empty due to your inability to question your own thoughts and ideas.
I would ask nobody to respond to baiting or arguments on this thread. It's just the ability to respond with some honesty that is being requested.
The challenge is up."
If you expect any of the Brexiteers to partake in that exercise, you're as optimistic about this as they are about Brexit.
As for remainers, no matter how good/well-thought/reasonable the argument/answer, the trolls are at the ready to ridicule/abuse.
So, no meaningful discussion can take place, as we've clearly seen on other threads multiple times.
As for the concept of the thread, yes, it's true. Do you really expect those guilty of it to admit it though? Even to themselves, let alone publicly? Why tear apart your own argument when you can just attack someone else's and, thus, deflect scrutiny away from your own? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
This thread reminds me of a guy spurned by his lover who is struggling with rejection and pleads with her to tell him that there must be/have been something that she loved about him and why can’t we just give it another go.
Never good |
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"This thread reminds me of a guy spurned by his lover who is struggling with rejection and pleads with her to tell him that there must be/have been something that she loved about him and why can’t we just give it another go.
Never good "
And uncovering your personal psychological profile ... ? Not a contributor? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ? "
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats "
how about we have greater certainty of where we will be in the future ....
Seriously though, the vote was close, so if you really are struggling to find to think of one reason why half the voters made a different decision to you is intriguing.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats how about we have greater certainty of where we will be in the future ....
Seriously though, the vote was close, so if you really are struggling to find to think of one reason why half the voters made a different decision to you is intriguing.
"
Where will we be in the future? A member of a federal state with even fewer powers to decide how we live our lives? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats how about we have greater certainty of where we will be in the future ....
Seriously though, the vote was close, so if you really are struggling to find to think of one reason why half the voters made a different decision to you is intriguing.
Where will we be in the future? A member of a federal state with even fewer powers to decide how we live our lives?"
You know this for certain ? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats how about we have greater certainty of where we will be in the future ....
Seriously though, the vote was close, so if you really are struggling to find to think of one reason why half the voters made a different decision to you is intriguing.
Where will we be in the future? A member of a federal state with even fewer powers to decide how we live our lives?"
Please don't debate this here. It's not the point of the thread.
If you don't have the ability to empathise or think outside your own experiences and perspectives then start a thread explaining to us how 48% of the population are simpletons whilst 52% have a unique insight into the "truth".
Well done for seeing the matrix. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats how about we have greater certainty of where we will be in the future ....
Seriously though, the vote was close, so if you really are struggling to find to think of one reason why half the voters made a different decision to you is intriguing.
Where will we be in the future? A member of a federal state with even fewer powers to decide how we live our lives?
You know this for certain ? "
No. But isn’t that what Juncker came out with in his last major speech?
To maybe understand the way I feel, I don’t know the links, or even if they are allowed, but google ‘the EU was never meant to be a democracy ‘. There are some interesting articles, particularly the first written by the author Frederick Forsyth |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Brexit is like losing a leg to gangerene,and then finding a shoe and its the wrong shoe and someones done a shite in it lol "
It would be good if you could giving the self-test in this thread a go andrather resist the temptation to respond togoading.
As you voted remain you probably will, meaning still no leavers able to question themselves. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Brexit is like losing a leg to gangerene,and then finding a shoe and its the wrong shoe and someones done a shite in it lol
It would be good if you could giving the self-test in this thread a go andrather resist the temptation to respond togoading.
As you voted remain you probably will, meaning still no leavers able to question themselves."
That was the positive lol |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Brexit is like losing a leg to gangerene,and then finding a shoe and its the wrong shoe and someones done a shite in it lol
It would be good if you could giving the self-test in this thread a go andrather resist the temptation to respond togoading.
As you voted remain you probably will, meaning still no leavers able to question themselves.
That was the positive lol"
Give it a go. It's a useful thing to do. Not just about this Brexit nonesense. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Brexit is like losing a leg to gangerene,and then finding a shoe and its the wrong shoe and someones done a shite in it lol
It would be good if you could giving the self-test in this thread a go andrather resist the temptation to respond togoading.
As you voted remain you probably will, meaning still no leavers able to question themselves.
That was the positive lol
Give it a go. It's a useful thing to do. Not just about this Brexit nonesense."
I honestly dont see any positives from bexit, oh yea the breakup of the uk when scotland becomes independent and Ireland unites thats about it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
As I said earlier if, on a subject which has split the nation, you really can’t see any positives (aka reasons why every second person has a opposite POV) then you really aren’t thinking hard enough. Which is kinda the point of this thread. Confirmation bias. |
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"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats "
It's potentially highly significant that one would be unable to position one's mind to even produce a single contemplated strength or benefit from a major alternative position to one's own. At least the commenter added how their thinking has been.
|
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Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum? 
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY! "
Good post
.
For a change |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY! "
One side of the cabinet must be bored shitkess given there are no positives of the EU.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY!
One side of the cabinet must be bored shitkess given there are no positives of the EU.
"
Ooh another good post |
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"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY!
Good post
.
For a change "
Stop trolling. For a change. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY!
Good post
.
For a change
Stop trolling. For a change."
What makes my posts trolling? Because I’m not part of the echo chamber? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY!
Good post
.
For a change
Stop trolling. For a change.
What makes my posts trolling? Because I’m not part of the echo chamber?"
You are trolling because you are being deliberately insulting to someone and in no way contributing to the thread. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY!
Good post
.
For a change
Stop trolling. For a change.
What makes my posts trolling? Because I’m not part of the echo chamber?
You are trolling because you are being deliberately insulting to someone and in no way contributing to the thread."
Banter is dead everyone. Reagan was right, fascism will return in the guise of liberalism |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Ben. Are you saying absoultely every outcome of brexit will be better than staying in the EU ?
We don’t know what the full outcome will be yet, I just couldn’t think of a reason to remain or one good thing to say about the EU. It’s supporters are just pawns of the plutocrats how about we have greater certainty of where we will be in the future ....
Seriously though, the vote was close, so if you really are struggling to find to think of one reason why half the voters made a different decision to you is intriguing.
Where will we be in the future? A member of a federal state with even fewer powers to decide how we live our lives?"
Autralia is federal, the US is federal, Germany is federal, what's wrong with federal? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Shit! I've just realised! Isn't that what Theresa asked her two warring sides of cabinet to do?! Is Easyuk really Theresa in disguise or is Theresa reading this forum?
THERESA IF YOU'RE READING THIS...SORT IT OUT ALREADY!
Good post
.
For a change
Stop trolling. For a change.
What makes my posts trolling? Because I’m not part of the echo chamber?
You are trolling because you are being deliberately insulting to someone and in no way contributing to the thread.
Banter is dead everyone. Reagan was right, fascism will return in the guise of liberalism "
He said IF it returns.
Also. Worse banter than PMQ. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I was on the fence but would have remained. Why? I gained from it personally. Being selfish there. I had one currency when visiting family in Europe. I can freely move from Netherlands and the UK to see my daughter. Also living in a liberal conservative country in the EU I gain great employment laws and benefits for working.
Negative of remain: Not all countries are the same. We seem united in some aspects but the sovereign governments in the other countries allowed each one to govern it to the ground. The ideology of each country cannot be compatable.
Positive of Brexit: Protest against the EU. Not to destroy it but reform it. We can stop blaming the EU for the failures of the government.
Wait is this a simple Pro and con exercise.
I am more concerned about the split. I think we all need to be empathetic to eachother. Understand why we voted that way. Why there is anger, fear, frustration. As you said on another thread it's more based on emotion. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I was on the fence but would have remained. Why? I gained from it personally. Being selfish there. I had one currency when visiting family in Europe. I can freely move from Netherlands and the UK to see my daughter. Also living in a liberal conservative country in the EU I gain great employment laws and benefits for working.
Negative of remain: Not all countries are the same. We seem united in some aspects but the sovereign governments in the other countries allowed each one to govern it to the ground. The ideology of each country cannot be compatable.
Positive of Brexit: Protest against the EU. Not to destroy it but reform it. We can stop blaming the EU for the failures of the government.
Wait is this a simple Pro and con exercise.
I am more concerned about the split. I think we all need to be empathetic to eachother. Understand why we voted that way. Why there is anger, fear, frustration. As you said on another thread it's more based on emotion. "
Actually it's purely pro the other side andof anti your own.
The intention is to be able to try to understand why half the population voted the other way.
Personally I only think about 20% really care very much at all. Even so, the country will remain devided until both points of view can be accommodated in someway. Until then what ever benefits do or do not materialise will never be fully realised.
Apparently some aren't interested. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Interestingly one of the faces of brexit (bojo) did a similar exercise (or at least write a pro stay and pro leave article) before declaring. Whether both took him the same time is up for debate but he did take the steps to come to a critiqued position .... |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Interestingly one of the faces of brexit (bojo) did a similar exercise (or at least write a pro stay and pro leave article) before declaring. Whether both took him the same time is up for debate but he did take the steps to come to a critiqued position ...."
Was that to try and address cognitive bias though? Or more likely to present whichever viewpoint on the day would get him closer to being PM?
-Matt |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Interestingly one of the faces of brexit (bojo) did a similar exercise (or at least write a pro stay and pro leave article) before declaring. Whether both took him the same time is up for debate but he did take the steps to come to a critiqued position ....
Was that to try and address cognitive bias though? Or more likely to present whichever viewpoint on the day would get him closer to being PM?
-Matt"
A bit of both.
He has learned how to debate even though he has chosen bluster as his preferred technique.
You can't debate or negotiate successfully unless you can understand the opposite perspective. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Interestingly one of the faces of brexit (bojo) did a similar exercise (or at least write a pro stay and pro leave article) before declaring. Whether both took him the same time is up for debate but he did take the steps to come to a critiqued position ....
Was that to try and address cognitive bias though? Or more likely to present whichever viewpoint on the day would get him closer to being PM?
-Matt
A bit of both.
He has learned how to debate even though he has chosen bluster as his preferred technique.
You can't debate or negotiate successfully unless you can understand the opposite perspective."
So why did you start a football thread? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"Interestingly one of the faces of brexit (bojo) did a similar exercise (or at least write a pro stay and pro leave article) before declaring. Whether both took him the same time is up for debate but he did take the steps to come to a critiqued position ....
Was that to try and address cognitive bias though? Or more likely to present whichever viewpoint on the day would get him closer to being PM?
-Matt
A bit of both.
He has learned how to debate even though he has chosen bluster as his preferred technique.
You can't debate or negotiate successfully unless you can understand the opposite perspective.
So why did you start a football thread?"
Nothing to do with this thread.
That's why it's...a different thread.
You seem easily confused but I guess as you will never look at yourself critically you will never find that out |
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