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EU - Japan trade deal
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Agreed today.
Lucky them
That will be another country that we lose a trade deal with when we leave the EU! "
What about Nissan, Toyota & Honda factories in UK? Zero trade tariffs for automotive apparently? |
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"Agreed today.
Lucky them
That will be another country that we lose a trade deal with when we leave the EU!
What about Nissan, Toyota & Honda factories in UK? Zero trade tariffs for automotive apparently? "
More from the none existing money ??? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Agreed today.
Lucky them
That will be another country that we lose a trade deal with when we leave the EU!
What about Nissan, Toyota & Honda factories in UK? Zero trade tariffs for automotive apparently? "
Remember that back under thatcher the japanese first started investing in auto plants here.
Why?
They wanted to sell to europe and avoid the tarriffs by keeping production in Europe. In britain we had the skills, infastructure, and access to europe they wanted.
We're going to have to come up with somethibg attractive to keep them here. If they arent planning on relocating, depending on the freedom of their eu trade deal. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
Has anyone told the Japanese how stupid they are?
Why bother taking 4-5 years negotiating a deal when WTO rules are so great? They just need a word with a Brexiter and I am sure they will see the error of their ways. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Agreed today.
Lucky them
That will be another country that we lose a trade deal with when we leave the EU!
What about Nissan, Toyota & Honda factories in UK? Zero trade tariffs for automotive apparently?
Remember that back under thatcher the japanese first started investing in auto plants here.
Why?
They wanted to sell to europe and avoid the tarriffs by keeping production in Europe. In britain we had the skills, infastructure, and access to europe they wanted.
We're going to have to come up with somethibg attractive to keep them here. If they arent planning on relocating, depending on the freedom of their eu trade deal."
These plants both Nissan and Honda had an awful lot of EU money as well to set up here |
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"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible? "
Luckily, because our goverrnment are so pathetic, we will have the 4 years + that it took to negotiate this deal with Japan. Happy days. When we leave the EU (in around 2025) all will be hunky dory |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible? "
What you do is agree common standards which will have an on-going administration cost for both parties and pay for an arbitration process in case of disputes.
Both parties surrender some sovereignty.
What neither side is particularly trying to do in this case is maintain peace and cooperation in a region that has been fought over in two world wars. It is not trying to help raise the standards of health and wealth of poorer states to create a bigger market.
It's not trying to coordinate research and development by efficiently pool I.g the efforts of a number of states that couldn't afford to do soon their own.
It's not trying to maintain a supranational representative democracy.
Is trade the only thing that is worth combining your effort to achieve? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible? "
Oh good grief. You been asleep through all these discussions? You not aware the EU had several dozen free trade deals with countries outside the EU? Japan and Canada being the two most recent examples.
-Matt |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible?
Oh good grief. You been asleep through all these discussions? You not aware the EU had several dozen free trade deals with countries outside the EU? Japan and Canada being the two most recent examples.
-Matt"
No. I think that the assumption is that Japan and the EU are doing a trade deal at zero cost, but the UK has to pay to be in the EU.
It somewhat misses the point of the EU. |
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"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible?
Oh good grief. You been asleep through all these discussions? You not aware the EU had several dozen free trade deals with countries outside the EU? Japan and Canada being the two most recent examples.
-Matt"
Well aware. Seems amazing Canada and Japan have FTAs but it will be 'impossible' for us to have an FTA with the eu.... ??? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible?
Oh good grief. You been asleep through all these discussions? You not aware the EU had several dozen free trade deals with countries outside the EU? Japan and Canada being the two most recent examples.
-Matt
No. I think that the assumption is that Japan and the EU are doing a trade deal at zero cost, but the UK has to pay to be in the EU.
It somewhat misses the point of the EU."
Zero cost?! Hahahaha. Even if you leave out any running costs and costs for things like arbitration, these things take years to negotiate. The cost of that alone must be phenomenal. The TTIP is rumoured to be thousands of pages long.
What crack are these people smoking?
-Matt |
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"
What neither side is particularly trying to do in this case is maintain peace and cooperation in a region that has been fought over in two world wars."
Good point, I forgot Japan wasn't involved in WW2. Glad you got that bit of history straightened out for everybody |
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"
Zero cost?! Hahahaha. Even if you leave out any running costs and costs for things like arbitration, these things take years to negotiate. The cost of that alone must be phenomenal. The TTIP is rumoured to be thousands of pages long.
What crack are these people smoking?
-Matt"
What are Japan and Canada paying.the eu? Or have they joined the eea?
Japan has it's own type of judicial sytem, they must be pissed off at recinding superiority to the ecj. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"How can you have a free trade agreement and not be a full member or pay in bilions of pounds? Surely that's impossible?
Oh good grief. You been asleep through all these discussions? You not aware the EU had several dozen free trade deals with countries outside the EU? Japan and Canada being the two most recent examples.
-Matt
Well aware. Seems amazing Canada and Japan have FTAs but it will be 'impossible' for us to have an FTA with the eu.... ???"
Why will it be impossible to have a FTA with the EU? Who has ever said that? Your regular statements like this just demonstrate your inability to grasp the differences between trade agreements, free trade agreements, trade blocs, customs unions and broad single markets. That said your idols don’t appear to know the difference either so it is hardly surprising really. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
Zero cost?! Hahahaha. Even if you leave out any running costs and costs for things like arbitration, these things take years to negotiate. The cost of that alone must be phenomenal. The TTIP is rumoured to be thousands of pages long.
What crack are these people smoking?
-Matt
What are Japan and Canada paying.the eu? Or have they joined the eea?
Japan has it's own type of judicial sytem, they must be pissed off at recinding superiority to the ecj."
Before embarrassing yourself further, you might want to read up a little on this arrangement and ask yourself how it squares with the Brexit Mantra of “ Out, out, out - Hard Brexit and WTO rules”
Why have the Japanese spent 5 years negotiating this deal with the EU and in the process (by necessity of any such deal) ceded some independence if WTO rules were so much better? |
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"
Before embarrassing yourself further, you might want to read up a little on this arrangement and ask yourself how it squares with the Brexit Mantra of “ Out, out, out - Hard Brexit and WTO rules”
Why have the Japanese spent 5 years negotiating this deal with the EU and in the process (by necessity of any such deal) ceded some independence if WTO rules were so much better?"
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
Before embarrassing yourself further, you might want to read up a little on this arrangement and ask yourself how it squares with the Brexit Mantra of “ Out, out, out - Hard Brexit and WTO rules”
Why have the Japanese spent 5 years negotiating this deal with the EU and in the process (by necessity of any such deal) ceded some independence if WTO rules were so much better?
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations."
Because the direction of preferred travel appears to be divergence and not convergence. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
What neither side is particularly trying to do in this case is maintain peace and cooperation in a region that has been fought over in two world wars.
Good point, I forgot Japan wasn't involved in WW2. Glad you got that bit of history straightened out for everybody "
European countries, neighbors, fought each other over the lands where their own populations lived for centuries.
One of the purposes of the European Union is to bind countries together such that this horror becomes unthinkable. That takes more than just trade.
Japan's involvement in WW2 is not really pertinent to this desire is it? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
Before embarrassing yourself further, you might want to read up a little on this arrangement and ask yourself how it squares with the Brexit Mantra of “ Out, out, out - Hard Brexit and WTO rules”
Why have the Japanese spent 5 years negotiating this deal with the EU and in the process (by necessity of any such deal) ceded some independence if WTO rules were so much better?
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations."
Oh, I’m sure we could get one. Just it took 4-5 years for the Japan-EU one. The Canadian one similar I think. So once we are out we can start negotiating one. And assuming Japan (for example) wants one then maybe in 4-5 years we’ll get one. Shame we couldn’t just remain part of the EU and be part of that one rather than starting over from scratch. And at the same time, maybe we can negotiate the dozens of others we will have lost, plus all these new ones with all the other countries we now want FTAs with. Not sure where we will find all the negotiators from. I seem to remember Australia offered to let us borrow some of theirs lol
-Matt |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
Before embarrassing yourself further, you might want to read up a little on this arrangement and ask yourself how it squares with the Brexit Mantra of “ Out, out, out - Hard Brexit and WTO rules”
Why have the Japanese spent 5 years negotiating this deal with the EU and in the process (by necessity of any such deal) ceded some independence if WTO rules were so much better?
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations."
You do understand that the situation with the EU has created a level of regulatory convergence that means that almost any activity (other than law) can be practised freely between any state?
Nearly every trade deal is to allow "stuff", physical things to be moved around. Even this requires common standards that must be agreed and modified as things change.
The UK makes most of it's money through services which are rarely included in most trade deals.
Japan and Canada, acting in their own interests, will look at the UK as a much smaller market so will want better terms for themselves than what they negotiated with the EU.
Does that make sense? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
Zero cost?! Hahahaha. Even if you leave out any running costs and costs for things like arbitration, these things take years to negotiate. The cost of that alone must be phenomenal. The TTIP is rumoured to be thousands of pages long.
What crack are these people smoking?
-Matt
What are Japan and Canada paying.the eu? Or have they joined the eea?
Japan has it's own type of judicial sytem, they must be pissed off at recinding superiority to the ecj."
I did state very clearly that the EU was more than just a trade association, so we ay for more than just a trade association.
The ECJ is a treaty court. It only rules on matters of treaty disagreement. How would you suggest such matters are resolved.
Any other trade agreement has to set up and pay for an equivalent arbitration system. That is will supersede any Japanese law in respect to this agreement. The same way that the WTO makes binding judgements in trade disputes. One of the big differences is that these judgements are often confidential, unlike the ECJ.
The European Court of Human Rights is a separate organization independent of the EU. We pay for that too. Also the UN and NATO and the WTO. |
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"
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations.
Oh, I’m sure we could get one. Just it took 4-5 years for the Japan-EU one. The Canadian one similar I think. So once we are out we can start negotiating one. And assuming Japan (for example) wants one then maybe in 4-5 years we’ll get one. Shame we couldn’t just remain part of the EU and be part of that one rather than starting over from scratch. And at the same time, maybe we can negotiate the dozens of others we will have lost, plus all these new ones with all the other countries we now want FTAs with. Not sure where we will find all the negotiators from. I seem to remember Australia offered to let us borrow some of theirs lol
-Matt"
Difference is, we have alignment of regulation and practice already. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations.
Oh, I’m sure we could get one. Just it took 4-5 years for the Japan-EU one. The Canadian one similar I think. So once we are out we can start negotiating one. And assuming Japan (for example) wants one then maybe in 4-5 years we’ll get one. Shame we couldn’t just remain part of the EU and be part of that one rather than starting over from scratch. And at the same time, maybe we can negotiate the dozens of others we will have lost, plus all these new ones with all the other countries we now want FTAs with. Not sure where we will find all the negotiators from. I seem to remember Australia offered to let us borrow some of theirs lol
-Matt
Difference is, we have alignment of regulation and practice already."
Except that we've said that we don't want to follow anyone else's stinking rules... |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
Slightly embarrassing ranty post. I don't persue an 'out out out hard brexit' ethos.
Just curious how so many people think negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal will be so difficult, when Canda and Japan have done it, and we are starting from a position of aligned regulations.
Oh, I’m sure we could get one. Just it took 4-5 years for the Japan-EU one. The Canadian one similar I think. So once we are out we can start negotiating one. And assuming Japan (for example) wants one then maybe in 4-5 years we’ll get one. Shame we couldn’t just remain part of the EU and be part of that one rather than starting over from scratch. And at the same time, maybe we can negotiate the dozens of others we will have lost, plus all these new ones with all the other countries we now want FTAs with. Not sure where we will find all the negotiators from. I seem to remember Australia offered to let us borrow some of theirs lol
-Matt
Difference is, we have alignment of regulation and practice already.
Except that we've said that we don't want to follow anyone else's stinking rules..."
Exactly. If we want to stay aligned then just stay in the fucking EU. Or the EEA. If we supposedly want this elusive sovereignty that we supposedly don't have. And we supposedly want to be able to take back control of the borders we supposedly don't have control over. Or we want to supposedly stop Eurocrats from making the rules that we agree with 98% of the time... then sure. But don't then try and use that as a reason why things like trade deals will be easy.
Have you ever leased an office before? Or bought a house? Don't you get than sinking feeling that SURELY these checks have already been done before? I mean, ffs, why do I need to do a mining survey for my house? The last 3 owners didn't find any mines. And there sure-as-shit hasn't been any mining here in Bristol since.... yet every time you need to go through it. Same with every time you lease an office you have to renegotiate from scratch. The reason? Because the seller/landlord will always default back to their best position and you need to renegotiate back.
So you think that after 5 years of negotiation between Canada and the EU, if the UK come along and just go 'Hey, just give us what Canada has' that that would work?! No of course it wouldn't. The other side will default back to whatever the best position is for them, and you will have to negotiate all those things again. And maybe they won't give on the same points as before. Because maybe they realise you are a shit negotiator after your abysmal attempts at negotiating so far. Or because you've publicly stated you will renege on any terms negotiated anyway.
Do you know why? Because they are cunts? No, because they are looking after the best interests of their own people, and anything less than that would be a dereliction of their duty to their people.
-Matt |
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"
Difference is, we have alignment of regulation and practice already.
Except that we've said that we don't want to follow anyone else's stinking rules..."
Have 'we' ?
If you export to any market, you must be compliant with their regulations. As we are when we export to the USA or when China imports here. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
Difference is, we have alignment of regulation and practice already.
Except that we've said that we don't want to follow anyone else's stinking rules...
Have 'we' ?
If you export to any market, you must be compliant with their regulations. As we are when we export to the USA or when China imports here."
Yes, exactly. Like the CE mark on electric goods. Who was it on here a year ago that was bitching that due to the EU they had to purchase and install more expensive domestic boilers for people rather than cheaper Asian ones?
Wasn’t it Dyson that said he wanted to leave the EU because of all the ‘red tape’ he had to comply with? Despite it being pointed out her would still have to comply with that to export to Europe anyway. If we stick with ‘alignment’ then we still have to comply with that here. And if he didn’t like it then, he won’t like it now.
-Matt |
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Just in case anyones confused;
There is no problem with the UK seeking a Canada style deal. But that is a low access deal that will be a worse trading position than being a member of the EU.
The "FTA" agreement between Canada and the EU and Japan and the EU is in no way, shape or form equivalent to the market access available through either EEA or EU membership.
A Free Trade Agreement is not a universal agreement that means no tarriffs or customs checks on any products or services between two countries. It is a nice sounding name to a limited trading agreement.
The UK had a choice between aiming for a Canada style deal (low market access but better than average and large amounts of independence from the EU) or a Norway style deal (high market access but accepting a majority of EU regulations and directives).
With the agreement that there will be regulatory alignment between the EU and Northern Ireland and between Northern Ireland and the UK the Canada style deal is basically off the table now unless May can deal with the DUP problem. |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"
Difference is, we have alignment of regulation and practice already.
Except that we've said that we don't want to follow anyone else's stinking rules...
Have 'we' ?
If you export to any market, you must be compliant with their regulations. As we are when we export to the USA or when China imports here."
Have you had a go at my cognitive bias thread? Might be fun |
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