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Genocide of Kurds
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"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? " They dont like referedums here or over there.The kurds are battle hardened and will not be slaughtered like cattle.The kurds have been betrayed once again.Its not unexpected.They are prepared to fight.  | |||
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"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? " Can you describe in a bit more detail about this systematic genocide, and provide your sources. I'm surprised to hear that the US is supplying weapons to ISIS. This would have to have been approved by the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls which is part of the US Department of State. The US has had an embargo on selling defence equipment to Syria since 29th October 1991. This can be found in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Section 126.1 | |||
"I think it's something to do with the Iraq Constitution maybe "You mean the constitution as of 2005.Created by a puppet goverment of uncle sam | |||
"I think it's something to do with the Iraq Constitution maybe You mean the constitution as of 2005.Created by a puppet goverment of uncle sam
". I was getting it in before him  | |||
"I think it's something to do with the Iraq Constitution maybe You mean the constitution as of 2005.Created by a puppet goverment of uncle sam
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I was getting it in before him "Not worth the paper its written on.ISIS controlled most of iraq up until the Kurds decimated them.What part of the constitution includes isis. | |||
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"There was a large battle recently with the Kurds in which a lot of US soldiers were killed but it has never been reported or acknowledged by the US or the west. Instead, it was reported they were killed in small groups of 2 or 3 throughout the world. The stories being reported by the West are being severely censored and biased with regard to Iran, Iraq and the Kurds. " But you have inside connections and know this to be true? | |||
"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? Can you describe in a bit more detail about this systematic genocide, and provide your sources. I'm surprised to hear that the US is supplying weapons to ISIS. This would have to have been approved by the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls which is part of the US Department of State. The US has had an embargo on selling defence equipment to Syria since 29th October 1991. This can be found in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Section 126.1" OP, care to answer these? What's your proof of genocide and how is the US selling weapons to ISIS if it's against US law? | |||
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"It comes from someone in an embedded position in the area." So not you personally then? Not someone that we can verify either? | |||
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"Actually, the US supply of arms to ISIS is quite well documented already. " Even though its against US law? And they are an enemy of the US. And the US are dropping bombs on them? Yeah, of course. P.S. please try to use the reply and quote button. | |||
"Even though its against US law? And they are an enemy of the US. And the US are dropping bombs on them? Yeah, of course. P.S. please try to use the reply and quote button." Not taking sides here as I have no idea if this is true or not. But does anyone remember one Col Olly North and the Iran Contra scandal? | |||
"Would you accept it if I said it was firsthand? The point of being embedded is that they stay that way. Simple. Time will tell on this." No, thats not the point of being embedded. Depending on whose side you are on, the point of an embed is to get close to the action/frontline/story, in relative safety and security. The other side would say that the point of the embed is so that the organisation that the journalist is with gets to control the story, and can show the world what it wants to be seen. | |||
"I think it's something to do with the Iraq Constitution maybe You mean the constitution as of 2005.Created by a puppet goverment of uncle sam
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I was getting it in before him Not worth the paper its written on.ISIS controlled most of iraq up until the Kurds decimated them.What part of the constitution includes isis. "I have to agree. The usa in my opinion, were using isis as a proxy army to oust assad. Now the kurds have outlasted their usefulness the usa have suddenly changed tune. The usa havent really explained where isis got all their new toyota usv's. | |||
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"That's a somewhat naive view of the US. I wasn't aware there was anyone else in the thread who wasn't aware an embedded source is never revealed. If there was dubiety about whom I was answering, I'd use quotes. If it helps you understand more easily, I will. "  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_journalism
Embeds are never secret. There maybe certain operational details that cannot be revealed, but if they were secret and didn't report anything, there would be no point in them being there. | |||
"Would you accept it if I said it was firsthand? The point of being embedded is that they stay that way. Simple. Time will tell on this." Now I am going to call that bullshit! Journalists (or for that matter anyone else) does not get embedded with special forces on covert operations. There are 2 reasons for that, firstly security. It is called 'need to know' and secondly unit operational efficiency. There is a reason special forces are called special, it is mainly about mental and physical endurance. No special forces unit on covert operations carries dead wood nor would they reveal their presence to anyone not authorised to know about their presence in an area (see one above). | |||
"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? Can you describe in a bit more detail about this systematic genocide, and provide your sources. I'm surprised to hear that the US is supplying weapons to ISIS. This would have to have been approved by the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls which is part of the US Department of State. The US has had an embargo on selling defence equipment to Syria since 29th October 1991. This can be found in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Section 126.1 OP, care to answer these? What's your proof of genocide and how is the US selling weapons to ISIS if it's against US law? " You are delude and gullibe cclc if you dont know that the us is helping to arm isis its all to do with keeping wars going And making the big arms companies in business the same as the tory bastards selling arms to the saudis to keep murdering innocent yemems its all about war to thes murdering bastards | |||
"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? Can you describe in a bit more detail about this systematic genocide, and provide your sources. I'm surprised to hear that the US is supplying weapons to ISIS. This would have to have been approved by the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls which is part of the US Department of State. The US has had an embargo on selling defence equipment to Syria since 29th October 1991. This can be found in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Section 126.1 OP, care to answer these? What's your proof of genocide and how is the US selling weapons to ISIS if it's against US law? You are delude and gullibe cclc if you dont know that the us is helping to arm isis its all to do with keeping wars going And making the big arms companies in business the same as the tory bastards selling arms to the saudis to keep murdering innocent yemems its all about war to thes murdering bastards " So the US is giving weapons to ISIS, against US law, to shoot at their own special forces? Did the US arm the Taliban? The Russians? The NVA? | |||
"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? Can you describe in a bit more detail about this systematic genocide, and provide your sources. I'm surprised to hear that the US is supplying weapons to ISIS. This would have to have been approved by the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls which is part of the US Department of State. The US has had an embargo on selling defence equipment to Syria since 29th October 1991. This can be found in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Section 126.1 OP, care to answer these? What's your proof of genocide and how is the US selling weapons to ISIS if it's against US law? You are delude and gullibe cclc if you dont know that the us is helping to arm isis its all to do with keeping wars going And making the big arms companies in business the same as the tory bastards selling arms to the saudis to keep murdering innocent yemems its all about war to thes murdering bastards So the US is giving weapons to ISIS, against US law, to shoot at their own special forces? Did the US arm the Taliban? The Russians? The NVA? " Yes the us did arm the taliban the us actually created the taliban when Afghanistan were fighting the russians but hey you will dispute that too | |||
"Systematic genocide by Iraqi forces of Kurds- where's that in the news reports? Or the US selling arms to ISIS? Can you describe in a bit more detail about this systematic genocide, and provide your sources. I'm surprised to hear that the US is supplying weapons to ISIS. This would have to have been approved by the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls which is part of the US Department of State. The US has had an embargo on selling defence equipment to Syria since 29th October 1991. This can be found in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Section 126.1 OP, care to answer these? What's your proof of genocide and how is the US selling weapons to ISIS if it's against US law? You are delude and gullibe cclc if you dont know that the us is helping to arm isis its all to do with keeping wars going And making the big arms companies in business the same as the tory bastards selling arms to the saudis to keep murdering innocent yemems its all about war to thes murdering bastards So the US is giving weapons to ISIS, against US law, to shoot at their own special forces? Did the US arm the Taliban? The Russians? The NVA? Yes the us did arm the taliban the us actually created the taliban when Afghanistan were fighting the russians but hey you will dispute that too " Do you mean the Mujahideen? Or are you saying that post 9/11 the US were supplying the Taliban to fight against American soldiers? | |||
"Would you accept it if I said it was firsthand? The point of being embedded is that they stay that way. Simple. Time will tell on this. Now I am going to call that bullshit! Journalists (or for that matter anyone else) does not get embedded with special forces on covert operations. There are 2 reasons for that, firstly security. It is called 'need to know' and secondly unit operational efficiency. There is a reason special forces are called special, it is mainly about mental and physical endurance. No special forces unit on covert operations carries dead wood nor would they reveal their presence to anyone not authorised to know about their presence in an area (see one above)." Where did I say the source was either military or a journalist? | |||
"Would you accept it if I said it was firsthand? The point of being embedded is that they stay that way. Simple. Time will tell on this. Now I am going to call that bullshit! Journalists (or for that matter anyone else) does not get embedded with special forces on covert operations. There are 2 reasons for that, firstly security. It is called 'need to know' and secondly unit operational efficiency. There is a reason special forces are called special, it is mainly about mental and physical endurance. No special forces unit on covert operations carries dead wood nor would they reveal their presence to anyone not authorised to know about their presence in an area (see one above). Where did I say the source was either military or a journalist? " When you said that they were embedded. The only people who embed are journalists with militaries. | |||
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"To CLCC. The Mujahadeen simply morphed into the Taliban...so indirectly and historically they were armed by US....but NOT recently. I would also tend to call "bullshit" on the US supplying ISIS with arms. However they certainly singly did supply arms to other anti-Assad groups, many of which had/have rather dubious motives and some of those weapons have certainly made their way indirectly into ISIS hands. The situation in the area is stupidly complex. All sides have treated the Kurds like pawns." So if the mujihadeen became the Taliban, then who were the Taliban fighting?  | |||
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"Iraq has begun using artillery on the peshmerga ignoring the US request to stop.The peshmerga have destroyed iran backed militias advancing in American armoured vehicles.It looks the Iraqis are wanting a civil war with the backing of turkey and iran.My money is on the kurds for the win. "Bob, why are you smiling about a civil war? You are talking about people getting killed and maimed. About children who will be scared for life both physiologically and psychologically. Talking about families being split up, societies who have already faced years of war, facing even further hardships. You are talking about the decimation of support structures, civil society, law and order, education, health systems, economies. This is the true face of independence, and it's nothing to smile about, and nothing to cheer on. And at the end of it, what will have been achieved? Independence or not? Who knows. | |||
"Would you accept it if I said it was firsthand? The point of being embedded is that they stay that way. Simple. Time will tell on this. Now I am going to call that bullshit! Journalists (or for that matter anyone else) does not get embedded with special forces on covert operations. There are 2 reasons for that, firstly security. It is called 'need to know' and secondly unit operational efficiency. There is a reason special forces are called special, it is mainly about mental and physical endurance. No special forces unit on covert operations carries dead wood nor would they reveal their presence to anyone not authorised to know about their presence in an area (see one above). Where did I say the source was either military or a journalist? When you said that they were embedded. The only people who embed are journalists with militaries. " No, it's not. | |||
"Would you accept it if I said it was firsthand? The point of being embedded is that they stay that way. Simple. Time will tell on this. Now I am going to call that bullshit! Journalists (or for that matter anyone else) does not get embedded with special forces on covert operations. There are 2 reasons for that, firstly security. It is called 'need to know' and secondly unit operational efficiency. There is a reason special forces are called special, it is mainly about mental and physical endurance. No special forces unit on covert operations carries dead wood nor would they reveal their presence to anyone not authorised to know about their presence in an area (see one above). Where did I say the source was either military or a journalist? When you said that they were embedded. The only people who embed are journalists with militaries. No, it's not." So who else "embeds" other than journalists? | |||
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"Iraq has begun using artillery on the peshmerga ignoring the US request to stop.The peshmerga have destroyed iran backed militias advancing in American armoured vehicles.It looks the Iraqis are wanting a civil war with the backing of turkey and iran.My money is on the kurds for the win.
Bob, why are you smiling about a civil war? You are talking about people getting killed and maimed. About children who will be scared for life both physiologically and psychologically. Talking about families being split up, societies who have already faced years of war, facing even further hardships. You are talking about the decimation of support structures, civil society, law and order, education, health systems, economies.
This is the true face of independence, and it's nothing to smile about, and nothing to cheer on. And at the end of it, what will have been achieved? Independence or not? Who knows."Change can be very positive.You can compare the jewish desire for a state to the kurdish struggle. I'm happy for the kurds. | |||
"Iraq has begun using artillery on the peshmerga ignoring the US request to stop.The peshmerga have destroyed iran backed militias advancing in American armoured vehicles.It looks the Iraqis are wanting a civil war with the backing of turkey and iran.My money is on the kurds for the win.
Bob, why are you smiling about a civil war? You are talking about people getting killed and maimed. About children who will be scared for life both physiologically and psychologically. Talking about families being split up, societies who have already faced years of war, facing even further hardships. You are talking about the decimation of support structures, civil society, law and order, education, health systems, economies.
This is the true face of independence, and it's nothing to smile about, and nothing to cheer on. And at the end of it, what will have been achieved? Independence or not? Who knows.
Change can be very positive.You can compare the jewish desire for a state to the kurdish struggle. I'm happy for the kurds. "Seriously? It took 6 million Jews being murdered to establish Israel, a state that has been at war for 70 years. How can you possibly think that is a good thing? You are a sick man bob if you think that's worthwhile. | |||
"Iraq has begun using artillery on the peshmerga ignoring the US request to stop.The peshmerga have destroyed iran backed militias advancing in American armoured vehicles.It looks the Iraqis are wanting a civil war with the backing of turkey and iran.My money is on the kurds for the win.
Bob, why are you smiling about a civil war? You are talking about people getting killed and maimed. About children who will be scared for life both physiologically and psychologically. Talking about families being split up, societies who have already faced years of war, facing even further hardships. You are talking about the decimation of support structures, civil society, law and order, education, health systems, economies.
This is the true face of independence, and it's nothing to smile about, and nothing to cheer on. And at the end of it, what will have been achieved? Independence or not? Who knows.
Change can be very positive.You can compare the jewish desire for a state to the kurdish struggle. I'm happy for the kurds.
Seriously? It took 6 million Jews being murdered to establish Israel, a state that has been at war for 70 years. How can you possibly think that is a good thing?
You are a sick man bob if you think that's worthwhile."A sick man would deny the jewish people a state. | |||
"Iraq has begun using artillery on the peshmerga ignoring the US request to stop.The peshmerga have destroyed iran backed militias advancing in American armoured vehicles.It looks the Iraqis are wanting a civil war with the backing of turkey and iran.My money is on the kurds for the win.
Bob, why are you smiling about a civil war? You are talking about people getting killed and maimed. About children who will be scared for life both physiologically and psychologically. Talking about families being split up, societies who have already faced years of war, facing even further hardships. You are talking about the decimation of support structures, civil society, law and order, education, health systems, economies.
This is the true face of independence, and it's nothing to smile about, and nothing to cheer on. And at the end of it, what will have been achieved? Independence or not? Who knows.
Change can be very positive.You can compare the jewish desire for a state to the kurdish struggle. I'm happy for the kurds.
Seriously? It took 6 million Jews being murdered to establish Israel, a state that has been at war for 70 years. How can you possibly think that is a good thing?
You are a sick man bob if you think that's worthwhile.
A sick man would deny the jewish people a state.
"Do you think the holocaust was a price worth paying for the state of Israel? | |||
"Iraq has begun using artillery on the peshmerga ignoring the US request to stop.The peshmerga have destroyed iran backed militias advancing in American armoured vehicles.It looks the Iraqis are wanting a civil war with the backing of turkey and iran.My money is on the kurds for the win.
Bob, why are you smiling about a civil war? You are talking about people getting killed and maimed. About children who will be scared for life both physiologically and psychologically. Talking about families being split up, societies who have already faced years of war, facing even further hardships. You are talking about the decimation of support structures, civil society, law and order, education, health systems, economies.
This is the true face of independence, and it's nothing to smile about, and nothing to cheer on. And at the end of it, what will have been achieved? Independence or not? Who knows.
Change can be very positive.You can compare the jewish desire for a state to the kurdish struggle. I'm happy for the kurds.
Seriously? It took 6 million Jews being murdered to establish Israel, a state that has been at war for 70 years. How can you possibly think that is a good thing?
You are a sick man bob if you think that's worthwhile.
A sick man would deny the jewish people a state.
Do you think the holocaust was a price worth paying for the state of Israel?"Would Israel exist without the holocaust. ? Should israel exist ? | |||
"Would Israel exist without the holocaust. ? Should israel exist ?" Fair questions Bob. Here are my answers: No, I do not think that the WZO (World Zionist Organisation) would have been allowed to organise and oversea the mass migration of Jews to Palestine and the systematic displacement of Palestinians by use of terrorism on the part of the Stern Gangs in order to form the state of Israel. I would also add that there is a significant body of proof that the WZO refused to transplant Jews in Germany and Nazi controlled territories because they saw an opportunity to use European Jews subjugation as an excuse to expand their colonisation of Palestine, and therefore were complicit in the holocaust. As for the question should Israel exist I would say that is far more nuanced, but not where it is. My justification for this starts with my comments above regarding the WZO's willingness to sacrifice millions of Jewish lives for an opportunity to set up a Jewish State, but further takes into account the destabilising effect Israel has had on the region and world, and the subsequent loss of lives over the last 70 years (which I would suggest is now at least another 6 million). Having said that, there is no undoing the holocaust and there can be no denying that the Jewish people have a right to a homeland where they have self determination and an ability to defend themselves. And I expect that no matter where that homeland was set up then there would have been friction with the local population that was being displaced. So I accept that Israel is here to stay, but I watch in horror and dismay as I see the Jewish State do (in slow motion) to the Muslims caught within its borders what the Nazis did to the Jews prior to final solution. | |||
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"Do Mormons deserve their own country? How about Sikhs? Scientologists? " Do jews.? | |||
"Do Mormons deserve their own country? How about Sikhs? Scientologists? " No. But I would ask you a question: How do you justify comparing Mormons, Sikhs and Scientologists with Jews? Are you ignoring their respective histories to make a point? Or do you consider being required to obey the laws that apply to all in a country to add up to religious persecution if a persons religious tenets contradict those laws? | |||
"Do Mormons deserve their own country? How about Sikhs? Scientologists? No. But I would ask you a question: How do you justify comparing Mormons, Sikhs and Scientologists with Jews? Are you ignoring their respective histories to make a point? Or do you consider being required to obey the laws that apply to all in a country to add up to religious persecution if a persons religious tenets contradict those laws? " If they don't, then why do Jews? If you take the view that the Jews deserve their own country then it leads me to ask two questions. 1) was the holocaust a price worth paying for the creation of Israel? 2) would the jews living in Europe before and during WWII have been happy to stay there if they hadn't been persecuted? | |||
"Do Mormons deserve their own country? How about Sikhs? Scientologists? Do jews.? "That's my point Bob. | |||
" 1) was the holocaust a price worth paying for the creation of Israel? 2) would the jews living in Europe before and during WWII have been happy to stay there if they hadn't been persecuted?" Asked and answered. "If they don't, then why do Jews? If you take the view that the Jews deserve their own country then it leads me to ask two questions." Because there is a history dating back 1000 years of regular pogroms and systematic Jewish persecution by both Christians and Muslims. | |||
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"The kurds also have along history of persecution.Same as the jewish people. If the jews have a right to a homeland so should the kurds. "How about gypsies? LGBT? Catholics? | |||
"The kurds also have along history of persecution.Same as the jewish people. If the jews have a right to a homeland so should the kurds.
How about gypsies? LGBT? Catholics?"Do they a claim to an ancestral homeland.The kurds have lived in the mountainous area known as Kurdistan for more than 2 millennia. Exatcly where have the LGBT community been living for 2 millennia ?Gypsies by nature roam so thats a non starter.Catholics have their own state in the vatican.. | |||
"The kurds also have along history of persecution.Same as the jewish people. If the jews have a right to a homeland so should the kurds. "Agreed. | |||
"The kurds also have along history of persecution.Same as the jewish people. If the jews have a right to a homeland so should the kurds.
How about gypsies? LGBT? Catholics?
Do they a claim to an ancestral homeland.The kurds have lived in the mountainous area known as Kurdistan for more than 2 millennia. Exatcly where have the LGBT community been living for 2 millennia ?Gypsies by nature roam so thats a non starter.Catholics have their own state in the vatican.. "So as an Anglo Saxon, can I go and annex a bit of Germany as "ancestral homeland"? | |||
"So as an Anglo Saxon, can I go and annex a bit of Germany as "ancestral homeland"? " You can try, but I don't fancy your chances... | |||
"The kurds also have along history of persecution.Same as the jewish people. If the jews have a right to a homeland so should the kurds.
How about gypsies? LGBT? Catholics?
Do they a claim to an ancestral homeland.The kurds have lived in the mountainous area known as Kurdistan for more than 2 millennia. Exatcly where have the LGBT community been living for 2 millennia ?Gypsies by nature roam so thats a non starter.Catholics have their own state in the vatican..
So as an Anglo Saxon, can I go and annex a bit of Germany as "ancestral homeland"? "A better question would be . Do the kurds and the jews have a legitimate claim to a homeland ? | |||
"You used it as per example 7. Which means you were talking about a journalist with the military. Or, OR you used the word incorrectly. " No....It doesn't mean just journalist or military. The source is embedded, the facts are correct- they can be further looked in to elsewhere, if you know where to look. The actual recent history of the region and the interventions of foreign governments in the story of the Kurdish land is nothing at all like popular press present. | |||
"You used it as per example 7. Which means you were talking about a journalist with the military. Or, OR you used the word incorrectly. No....It doesn't mean just journalist or military. The source is embedded, the facts are correct- they can be further looked in to elsewhere, if you know where to look. The actual recent history of the region and the interventions of foreign governments in the story of the Kurdish land is nothing at all like popular press present. " Yes, it does. I have given you the dictionary definition of what embed means. If you are not talking about a journalist embedded with the military, then you have used the wrong word. However, let's move past that, and tell us what you are talking about. | |||
"You used it as per example 7. Which means you were talking about a journalist with the military. Or, OR you used the word incorrectly. No....It doesn't mean just journalist or military. The source is embedded, the facts are correct- they can be further looked in to elsewhere, if you know where to look. The actual recent history of the region and the interventions of foreign governments in the story of the Kurdish land is nothing at all like popular press present. " Do you think the kurds should have their own homeland of Kurdistan. Much like the need for the creation of Israel there is a need for a kurdistan.The Iraqi goverment been proven to be incapable of protecting the kurds.Time for independence. | |||
"Do you think the kurds should have their own homeland of Kurdistan. Much like the need for the creation of Israel there is a need for a kurdistan.The Iraqi goverment been proven to be incapable of protecting the kurds.Time for independence. "I think your question is rather stupid. Clearly the Kurd's already have their own homeland, it is as you rightly pointed out called Kurdistan. The problem is that at present Kurdistan is divided between 5 countries, Turkey, Armenia, Iran, Iraq and Syria. And that within that area are massive oil reserves. No sovereign power is going to willingly surrender part of its sovereign territory, doubly so when it holds valuable mineral wealth. The idea that 5 sovereign powers will all give up territory is ludicrous, in fact it is much more likely that the 5 powers will set aside their differences to crush the Kurdish attempts to establish an independent Kurdish State. | |||
"It doesn't mean just journalist or military. The source is embedded, the facts are correct- they can be further looked in to elsewhere, if you know where to look. Yes, it does. I have given you the dictionary definition of what embed means. If you are not talking about a journalist embedded with the military, then you have used the wrong word." No, the source is neither military nor journalistic but is embedded. You'll just have to take it as read. I'm certainly not giving out information that compromises that. What I meant is exactly as I've written. The Iraqis are carrying out genocide on the Kurds but the west isn't interested, the US has armed ISIS because it suited them at the time because of the situation in Iran and on it goes...it's tribalism on a world stage. The US can't understand a country that doesn't run on Capitalism and feels the need to make it a mini-clone and fundimentalists of all persuasions will never bend nor be bribed, which is a hard-learned lesson. We can only hope it HAS been learned. | |||
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"I see the Turkish government has joined in. What a mess world politics is " 2 Posts up from yours 12 weeks ago I said this was the most likely outcome. I feel sorry for the Kurds, but as I said in the 8th post (13 weeks ago) on this thread the Kurd's only have themselves to blame for this. They had an opportunity to play a strategically clever roll and let their enemies deplete their reserves fighting ISIS or give their enemies the advantage by spending their own forces for temporary gains. They chose the short hand and now are going to pay the price. | |||
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"The awful thing is, it's not discriminate. It's slaughter. The Kurds see themselves as defending their homeland, not removing another population off the face of the earth. " Is nationalism worth dying for? | |||
"The awful thing is, it's not discriminate. It's slaughter. The Kurds see themselves as defending their homeland, not removing another population off the face of the earth. Is nationalism worth dying for?" Freedom is always worth dying for.A fool puts his fate in the hands of others who would betray him. The Kurds know from history their extermination is a possibility.Same for Israel and most Israelis would die for freedom and many brave Jews and Kurds have died for freedom. | |||
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"The awful thing is, it's not discriminate. It's slaughter. The Kurds see themselves as defending their homeland, not removing another population off the face of the earth. Is nationalism worth dying for? Freedom is always worth dying for.A fool puts his fate in the hands of others who would betray him. The Kurds know from history their extermination is a possibility.Same for Israel and most Israelis would die for freedom and many brave Jews and Kurds have died for freedom." Freedom from what? | |||
"The awful thing is, it's not discriminate. It's slaughter. The Kurds see themselves as defending their homeland, not removing another population off the face of the earth. Is nationalism worth dying for? Freedom is always worth dying for.A fool puts his fate in the hands of others who would betray him. The Kurds know from history their extermination is a possibility.Same for Israel and most Israelis would die for freedom and many brave Jews and Kurds have died for freedom. Freedom from what?" Extermination, tyranny,oppression subjugation, domination, control, repression, suppression, persecution, exploitation, abuse. Take your pick. | |||
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"Willwill69u IIRC, you've served in the miltary? I'm guessing, because you seem to be pretty knowledgable, in Iraq? A question. Do you think it's feasible that the Saudis have provided arms to ISIS? The recurring theme here seems to be the clusterfuck that is ethnonationalism. The Jews created Israel because Europe was unsafe. The Kurds are under attack because they're an ethnic minority in all of the states where they are settled. These tensions tend to be pronounced in post-colonial countries, because their boundaries weren't drawn along ethnic lines. But rulers almost always tend to be of the same ethnic group, and they use nationalism as a way to cling to power (the "advantage" of nationalism is that political dissidents can be denounced as traitors), they can use ethnic minorities as a scapegoat. One of the most catastrophic examples was in Rwanda...the Belgian colonialists made the Tutsi minority the ruling elite, the majority Hutu took over after independence, after an economic crisis, Tutsi rebels fought a guerilla war (many of them having fled to Uganda), the Hutu Presidents of Rwanda and Burundi had their plane shot down from the air, which then sparked the Tutsi genocide, the Tutsi rebels then took control of Rwanda, and most of the Hutu fled to DRC. There may still be repercussions of this. Does this mean that different ethnicities can't co-exist in the same state? That's how the nationalist argument goes. But there's always some power disparity, and there's always some underlying fear of persecution, which the ruling class will do their best to exploit. So having a nation state for your ethnic group to control is a solution to a legitimate problem. But it was a problem that was created by nationalism in the first place. I hope I'm not derailing here, but I am trying to thread things together. Rightly or wrongly, Israel feels under attack, and that doesn't excuse it's treatment of Palestinians, but I think the tactics of Hamas, coupled with quite a lot of anti-semitism is a red rag to a bull. I see people holding Jews to standards that they don't hold others to (some people have told me that they're expected to denounce Israel, by people who wouldn't hold Muslims to the same standards re ISIS). I had this one conversation with a guy who said "well Israelis have forfeited their right to their own country, by keep voting in imperialists". And I'm like "well, you're from the US, how is voting out imperialists going for you?". He conceded I had a point. But also, anti-semitism is a common feature amongst conspiracy theorists (Jews are pulling all the strings, and you don't have to look that hard to find cartoons on the internet of Jewish puppetmasters that look like they're right out of Nazi propaganda. Those who support Israel's occupation of the West Bank use accusations of anti-semitism to deflect criticism, which I think is a distraction from the real anti-semitism, which is often very subtle, and conspiracy theories are a way of drawing people in." WhoreMona, where to begin?... Yes, I am former military. I did not serve in Iraq, in fact my last active service was in the Falklands from late April 82. Since then I have studied both military history and war studies, therefore I can, say yes I understand the subject. You pose a number of questions, some are quite complex other not so. Do I think the Saudis may be providing arms to ISIS? No, I do not think, I know that not only do the Saudis arm ISIS but that they bankroll, and control ISIS and (either directly or indirectly) every other Salafist jihadi terrorist organisation in the world. Your next point about ethno-nationalism is really a bit of a red herring. Ethno-nationalism is nothing more than nationalism wearing a coloured dress and nationalism is nothing more than a tool used by those with such obnoxious beliefs that to gain and hold power they need to divide reasonable people. The easiest way to divide people are in order, colour, language, religion, political affiliation and finally wealth. This has always been the way and can even be seen in action within the UK where gangsters use regional accent variations to identify targets and by use of negative propaganda seek to have the communities they prey on hide them because they provide protection from... You go on to talk about post colonial legacies and artificial borders and you use the Tutsi's and Hutu's as an example of maladministration by colonial powers. I take it you do not realise the Tutsi's are educated Hutu's. In reality they are the offspring of the Hutu's who were educated by the colonial power and employed as the locally sourced bureaucrats. I am not attempting to defend European colonialism, but the truth is that it gets a much worse press than it deserves and I believe that when it is examined through the lens of history in a couple of millennia it will be seen in the same light as the Roman Empire, expansionist, unbending, brutal at times, but on the whole a force that brought order and prosperity for the majority that came under its rule. You ask can people who are not the same live together in peace? Of course they can, but it is difficult. The truth is education is the key, not book learning, but genuine education. Until a population as a whole is taught to think critically and to ignore bias then then unscrupulous will use differences to sew doubt and hate for their personal advantage (and to destroy any who may be a threat to them and their ambitions). This has always been the way of things and while we live in a capitalist competitive world it will remain so. I am not going to go anywhere near the Israeli question because of how conflicted I am on that question beyond saying Israel is no longer the victim and its citizens should be thoroughly ashamed of how they treat the Palestinians because I can see little difference between Israel today and 30's Germany or the Nazi Brown Shirts treatment of Jews and the IDF treatment of Muslims. Sorry OP if I have now completed the hijacking of your thread. But there were just so many points that deserved a reply in WhoreMona's post. | |||
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"Not a problem. Interesting reading,thank you. " Thank you abcxyz, I appreciate your willingness to let the thread develop. If you or anyone else has any observations, counters or questions please share. I understand the subject but am sure there are many questions and issues that I have not even thought of or even worse dismissed because I have not considered and addressed them from the relevantly correct viewpoint. Have at it guys... Find weaknesses in my position and show me where I am wrong. | |||
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"There are so many issues with the Middle East and so many coalitions, pacts, politicing and factions fighting each other, some with old grievances, others new or for pure financial gain, that it's like unravelling a ball of fragile thread the size of the moon. Have to admit, when I heard the details and the complexity of who, where, why and what, it was horrifying. " truth be known the problems of the Middle East are not that complex. In fact they are really quite simple, but like most simple problems are far from easy to to solve. The fact is I debate Middle Eastern issues with Jews, Christians and Muslims mainly from Egypt, Israel and Lebanon on an international internet chess site I am a member of and I know I am close to correct in my analysis of the region because the Muslims say I am a Zionist, the Jews say I am antisemitic and the Christians claim I am an Islamist. Personally I think the intransigence, hostility and violence that is historically endemic in the region is directly attributable to the harsh climate and lack of water. I would further point out that those who live in similar climates in the USA share the same closed and violent attitudes and behaviours. Of course our refusal to accept what is so obvious and either find a way to solve, negate or quarantine the problems of deserts thus stopping them spreading means that over time those in other parts of the world will become infected and then we all have to live with the intolerance bread in deserts through lack of water. I now await the screams of protest from those who refuse to believe that humans can be so base that they would kill whole peoples on the basis that they are different in order to control a limited supply of water in a desert. | |||
