FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > UK opposes term 'pregnant women' as it excludes trans people
UK opposes term 'pregnant women' as it excludes trans people
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"A quick Google tells me the government denies requesting the change, so unless you want to go by the Fox news version it's case closed." Sorry - here's a link to the article https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/its-not-women-who-get-pregnant-its-people-w3mmzbgwh?CMP=Sprkr | |||
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"Ffs" Agreed | |||
"This has to be bolox! How else would you describe a pregnant woman other than as a pregnant woman without being totally insulting to the whole female population?"  | |||
"Non-paywall version of the story from the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/uk-lobbies-for-trans-rights-in-un-treaty-but-allows-contentious-pregnant-women-term It's just about giving the same rights to any transgender person who might be pregnant. " . How you define your "gender" is up to you but last time I looked, if your pregnant your a woman!.  | |||
"Non-paywall version of the story from the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/uk-lobbies-for-trans-rights-in-un-treaty-but-allows-contentious-pregnant-women-term It's just about giving the same rights to any transgender person who might be pregnant. . How you define your "gender" is up to you but last time I looked, if your pregnant your a woman!. "Sex and gender are two different things. | |||
"Non-paywall version of the story from the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/uk-lobbies-for-trans-rights-in-un-treaty-but-allows-contentious-pregnant-women-term It's just about giving the same rights to any transgender person who might be pregnant. . How you define your "gender" is up to you but last time I looked, if your pregnant your a woman!.
Sex and gender are two different things. "Absolutely A man born into a body with a womb who is pregnant , could need to be protected in law , which when pedantic lawyers are involved this could be the point a decision in a court could hinge upon However I may add I'm not entirely sure why a non pregnant person should have any less protections than a pregnant person ? However if a law in the future says a pregnant woman is due 50 pounds a month and a man born into a ladies body has spent years legally challenging his right to be legally called a man , he if pregnant could not be entitled to a pregnant woman's child allowance It really isn't difficult to understand why a conscientious society would want their law to articulatley and precisely cover many eventualities for all kinds of people and situations Of course those who think this as over the top pc nonsense are shallow minded and relatively insensitive to the subtle nature of the human condition and deserve little attention x | |||
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"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman "Even if you have a penis? | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman "Biologically you're a female. That's your sex. Your gender may be a woman or it may not be. | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman
Biologically you're a female. That's your sex. Your gender may be a woman or it may not be. "Although actually your sex may not be as simple as 'female' either. It's not always so clear cut. | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman
Even if you have a penis?". There's a guy down the chip shop swears he's princess Leia but I really don't see the point of renegotiating UN charters on his whims | |||
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"Non-paywall version of the story from the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/uk-lobbies-for-trans-rights-in-un-treaty-but-allows-contentious-pregnant-women-term It's just about giving the same rights to any transgender person who might be pregnant. . How you define your "gender" is up to you but last time I looked, if your pregnant your a woman!.
Sex and gender are two different things.
Absolutely
A man born into a body with a womb who is pregnant , could need to be protected in law , which when pedantic lawyers are involved this could be the point a decision in a court could hinge upon
However I may add I'm not entirely sure why a non pregnant person should have any less protections than a pregnant person ?
However if a law in the future says a pregnant woman is due 50 pounds a month and a man born into a ladies body has spent years legally challenging his right to be legally called a man , he if pregnant could not be entitled to a pregnant woman's child allowance
It really isn't difficult to understand why a conscientious society would want their law to articulatley and precisely cover many eventualities for all kinds of people and situations
Of course those who think this as over the top pc nonsense are shallow minded and relatively insensitive to the subtle nature of the human condition and deserve little attention x"I agree with and accept your point but I also think that such an individual if acting rationally would acknowledge the relative rarity of their circumstances and how they don't fit the etymology of the term. Framing it that way one could see that it isn't really a source of offense and more so just one of those things. You can say society is insensitive but equally you could say that individuals can be oversensitive. | |||
". You can say society is insensitive but equally you could say that individuals can be oversensitive. " Individuals who are outside the norm when it comes to sex or gender often suffer abuse, discrimination, or can simply feel ostracised/alienated by a society that is focused on 'normality'. As such I think a little 'over sensitivity' can be forgiven. | |||
". You can say society is insensitive but equally you could say that individuals can be oversensitive. Individuals who are outside the norm when it comes to sex or gender often suffer abuse, discrimination, or can simply feel ostracised/alienated by a society that is focused on 'normality'. As such I think a little 'over sensitivity' can be forgiven. " Why? Will modifying the text of a legal document really do anything to help if someone feels alienated? | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman
Even if you have a penis?.
There's a guy down the chip shop swears he's princess Leia but I really don't see the point of renegotiating UN charters on his whims"Google Thomas Beatie. There are also several other examples out there, none of whom work in your local chippie. | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman
Biologically you're a female. That's your sex. Your gender may be a woman or it may not be.
Although actually your sex may not be as simple as 'female' either. It's not always so clear cut. "actually it is that clear cut if youre born a certain way thats what you are how you want to live your life and call yourself thats down to you just done expect the rest of the world to follow ....imagine if i was to say ive been born black but i feel chinese ..do you think the rest of the world should just acept that im chinese ? | |||
". You can say society is insensitive but equally you could say that individuals can be oversensitive. Individuals who are outside the norm when it comes to sex or gender often suffer abuse, discrimination, or can simply feel ostracised/alienated by a society that is focused on 'normality'. As such I think a little 'over sensitivity' can be forgiven. Why? Will modifying the text of a legal document really do anything to help if someone feels alienated? " Maybe? I don't know. Will it do any harm to anyone to do it just in case? | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman
Biologically you're a female. That's your sex. Your gender may be a woman or it may not be.
Although actually your sex may not be as simple as 'female' either. It's not always so clear cut. actually it is that clear cut if youre born a certain way thats what you are how you want to live your life and call yourself thats down to you just done expect the rest of the world to follow ....imagine if i was to say ive been born black but i feel chinese ..do you think the rest of the world should just acept that im chinese ? "Look up people who are intersex, for a start. It's really not as simple as you assume. | |||
"No it's really simple and doesn't need fancy lawyer talk!. If your pregnant, your a woman!. You might "feel" like your a man, you might feel like your neither, you might feel like your a walrus or an egg plant but biologically your a woman
Biologically you're a female. That's your sex. Your gender may be a woman or it may not be.
Although actually your sex may not be as simple as 'female' either. It's not always so clear cut. actually it is that clear cut if youre born a certain way thats what you are how you want to live your life and call yourself thats down to you just done expect the rest of the world to follow ....imagine if i was to say ive been born black but i feel chinese ..do you think the rest of the world should just acept that im chinese ? "Beep. Incorrect | |||
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"Caster semenya swears she's a woman...forget lawyers, even scientists argued against her. If this change is designed to future proof the law - fair enough. " . There's a case of a young boy raised by wolves out there, he thinks he's a wolf, he feels like a wolf, he likes living as a wolf... Scientists will still argue the case that technically he's not a wolf | |||
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"I don't want to infringe on his rights to feel like a wolf. However I don't think the entire world should pander to his feelings of being a wolf by changing everything they do to suit him" It's a good argument but to be fair being born in the wrong body (as opposed to the wrong species) is very much real. | |||
"I don't want to infringe on his rights to feel like a wolf. However I don't think the entire world should pander to his feelings of being a wolf by changing everything they do to suit him It's a good argument but to be fair being born in the wrong body (as opposed to the wrong species) is very much real. " . How dare you tell me I'm not a wolf.... I'm very offended | |||
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"I want the world to pander me too but I just can't get the propaganda angle quiet right yet. How can I appear more marginalised and downtrodden? " . The trouble with the left is there regressive by nature, hence why they end up no platforming people like Germaine Greer as bigoted. The other people I have with them is they nearly all work in teaching (a noble art) but then pass on their regressive attitude to children by stuff like absolutely insisting on utter shit like gender studies, hence why we have generation snowflake in the West! | |||
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"It gets confusing when snowflakes start calling their critics snowflakes. When will the madness stop? How will history judge this period of confusion? " . It's happened throughout history to every culture, once they solve the "big" problems in people's lives they regress to idiotic shit as "genuine" problems with assumption that masculinity is the main driver of problems because all cultures have always been dominated by masculine males | |||
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"A bit more serious here. I agree that we should do our best to accommodate all walks of life but equally if a real life pregnant man can't see the highly rare nature of his/her situation and accept it in good faith. There are courts and reasonable judges to be the arbiters of common sense anyway in the unlikely event that a pregnant man is missing out on a 50 quid tax rebate or something like that. " We're talking about lines of text in documents that can easily be changed. Not a large scale project that costs money or resources. As I asked above without getting an answer, what is the actual harm in being more inclusive in a case where it is so easy? And what does this have to do with global inequality? We can't look at any other issues, everyone everywhere has to be 100% focussed on a single issue at all times? | |||
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" And what does this have to do with global inequality? We can't look at any other issues, everyone everywhere has to be 100% focussed on a single issue at all times? " We were talking more generally about the politically correct atmosphere that got us here. It's not all bad or pointless - but most of it is a distraction from more pressing things. | |||
" And what does this have to do with global inequality? We can't look at any other issues, everyone everywhere has to be 100% focussed on a single issue at all times? We were talking more generally about the politically correct atmosphere that got us here. It's not all bad or pointless - but most of it is a distraction from more pressing things. " It's not a distraction though, is it? There's no big initiative, law change, idea, or movement being blocked. Literally no one with any political power in the world is saying 'I would do something about economic inequality but first I gotta sort these trans issues out, come back later please' | |||
" And what does this have to do with global inequality? We can't look at any other issues, everyone everywhere has to be 100% focussed on a single issue at all times? We were talking more generally about the politically correct atmosphere that got us here. It's not all bad or pointless - but most of it is a distraction from more pressing things. It's not a distraction though, is it? There's no big initiative, law change, idea, or movement being blocked. Literally no one with any political power in the world is saying 'I would do something about economic inequality but first I gotta sort these trans issues out, come back later please' " What about the hearts and minds of the public conscious (which influences political will) who are distracted with this stuff? | |||
"I don't want to infringe on his rights to feel like a wolf. However I don't think the entire world should pander to his feelings of being a wolf by changing everything they do to suit him It's a good argument but to be fair being born in the wrong body (as opposed to the wrong species) is very much real. " you cant be born into the wrong body thats bs youre born its up to you to either love or hate your body | |||
"I don't want to infringe on his rights to feel like a wolf. However I don't think the entire world should pander to his feelings of being a wolf by changing everything they do to suit him It's a good argument but to be fair being born in the wrong body (as opposed to the wrong species) is very much real. you cant be born into the wrong body thats bs youre born its up to you to either love or hate your body" Come off it - there are transexual people who clearly have a female brain in a male body or vice versa. | |||
" And what does this have to do with global inequality? We can't look at any other issues, everyone everywhere has to be 100% focussed on a single issue at all times? We were talking more generally about the politically correct atmosphere that got us here. It's not all bad or pointless - but most of it is a distraction from more pressing things. It's not a distraction though, is it? There's no big initiative, law change, idea, or movement being blocked. Literally no one with any political power in the world is saying 'I would do something about economic inequality but first I gotta sort these trans issues out, come back later please' What about the hearts and minds of the public conscious (which influences political will) who are distracted with this stuff? " Slightly more plausible, but I don't buy that the chorus of trans rights advocates is so powerful that politicians are blinded from doing anything else. Economic equality is not some self obviously virtuous issus that politicians will automatically work for if only they aren't distracted. Plenty of people don't give a shit about that. So I would suggest the best way to fight economic inequality would be to promote it, campaign for it, research how it can be brought about. If anything, spending time telling other people to be quiet about other issues is distracting you from working on inequality... | |||
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"I don't want to infringe on his rights to feel like a wolf. However I don't think the entire world should pander to his feelings of being a wolf by changing everything they do to suit him It's a good argument but to be fair being born in the wrong body (as opposed to the wrong species) is very much real. you cant be born into the wrong body thats bs youre born its up to you to either love or hate your body" . Personally I think this is where the vast majority of this stems from. The West has been obsessed with beauty,body consciousness, white teeth, bleaching arseholes, injecting lips, skin tone, spots, blackheads, shiny hair, thin hair, receding hair, eyebrows, eye liner face cream and fatness thinness for so long there just confused in general!. Our misery goes worse by the year despite all the gains and no amount of new gains can solve that misery. | |||
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"And finally before I shut up and attempt to do actually useful things with my day - Ranking issues in terms of importance isn't this simple. People can have global inequality as their number one - I'd say that climate change trumps it, in my opinion. It threatens the long term future of the planet and will actually lead to even more inequality. So we should all stop talking about the gross gap between the 1% and the rest of us, in case it distracts politicians from sorting out climate change? Obviously not, that's not how the world works. " True whats the point of equality if we have no place to live.climate change is the number one issue for humanity. | |||
"I don't want to infringe on his rights to feel like a wolf. However I don't think the entire world should pander to his feelings of being a wolf by changing everything they do to suit him" Semenya was born a female, considers herself female....runs against other females....she wants the world to accept she's female. They don't. Other athletes she runs with don't. Some doctors don't. There's a grey area...and more then wolf babies inhabit it. | |||
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"To be quite honest I don't think changing a word in a UN charter will protect anyone. After all when people are considering killing someone who is pregnant I do not think a ruling by the UN regarding their born or assigned gender is going to make any difference to the outcome. Therefore I would have to ask why is the UK government making such a fuss? What are they distracting attention away from?" Words taken on their own don't do much, but the thing is words are never on their own. The language used in a charter is a reflection of what the signees believe in, and what they consider to be acceptable, and in turn informs what is unacceptable. And these values will inform interactions, judgements and the use of force. So yes, the words themselves won't stop someone of a mind to kill a pregnant person, but it will give a good indication of what the consequences might be, and that knowledge will be enough to stay the hand of others who might otherwise want to follow through. | |||
"Words taken on their own don't do much, but the thing is words are never on their own. The language used in a charter is a reflection of what the signees believe in, and what they consider to be acceptable, and in turn informs what is unacceptable. And these values will inform interactions, judgements and the use of force. So yes, the words themselves won't stop someone of a mind to kill a pregnant person, but it will give a good indication of what the consequences might be, and that knowledge will be enough to stay the hand of others who might otherwise want to follow through." If what you say is true how come signatories to the Geneva Convention, the UN Convention on Human Rights and the UN Convention on The Rights of the Child without any meaningful sanctions being applied against them or any of those who are responsible for those acts being prosecuted? Prime example in point being Israels conduct in the occupied territories, Gaza Strip and treatment of the Palestinians in general, which systematically breaks all 3 conventions I sighted to which they are signatories. One could expand the argument to point out that international conventions are international laws and therefore have the similar status as other laws when it comes to criminality, the difference being domestic laws apply to individuals and groups in sovereign states where as international law applies to also to sovereign states there of. Patently it is clear that passing a law does not stop the act from occurring, and even the most severe of punishments fail act as a deterrent to all. If they did there would be no drug trafficking through countries with mandatory death penalties for those caught. As I said, the truth is when people are considering killing words on any paper have no weight. This is a shame, but this is the truth. | |||
"Words taken on their own don't do much, but the thing is words are never on their own. The language used in a charter is a reflection of what the signees believe in, and what they consider to be acceptable, and in turn informs what is unacceptable. And these values will inform interactions, judgements and the use of force. So yes, the words themselves won't stop someone of a mind to kill a pregnant person, but it will give a good indication of what the consequences might be, and that knowledge will be enough to stay the hand of others who might otherwise want to follow through. If what you say is true how come signatories to the Geneva Convention, the UN Convention on Human Rights and the UN Convention on The Rights of the Child without any meaningful sanctions being applied against them or any of those who are responsible for those acts being prosecuted? Prime example in point being Israels conduct in the occupied territories, Gaza Strip and treatment of the Palestinians in general, which systematically breaks all 3 conventions I sighted to which they are signatories. One could expand the argument to point out that international conventions are international laws and therefore have the similar status as other laws when it comes to criminality, the difference being domestic laws apply to individuals and groups in sovereign states where as international law applies to also to sovereign states there of. Patently it is clear that passing a law does not stop the act from occurring, and even the most severe of punishments fail act as a deterrent to all. If they did there would be no drug trafficking through countries with mandatory death penalties for those caught. As I said, the truth is when people are considering killing words on any paper have no weight. This is a shame, but this is the truth." Yes, we all know that passing a law does not stop an act from occurring, but then why do we pass laws? Laws, UN conventions and the like, are, among other things, aspirational. We know that murders will still happen if we pass a law against it, but we do it anyway because we aspire to be a society where murders don't happen. We know that people who sign laws against sexual assault may themselves turn out to commit sexual assault, but that doesn't stop us from doing it anyway, because we aspire to be a society where sexual assault doesn't happen. Same with these conventions, we known that there can be bad actors who are signees of the conventions they violate, but we aspire to a world with these rights for all so we don't let that we fall short dissuade us. | |||
