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Brexit - Irish tea shop talks a lot of sense
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Leo Varadkar, recently elected Taoiseach, was in Ulster today and discussing the implications of brexit on the people of Ireland.
For my part, I believe that his analysis is the most realistic, pragmatic and sensible to have come from any European politician since the referendum.
No posturing, no vitriol, no hostility, no mischief-making. He puts all the other players in this tragicomedy to shame.
Perhaps Boris will respond by dropping his trousers, in best traditions of Whitehall farce. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Leo Varadkar, recently elected Taoiseach, was in Ulster today and discussing the implications of brexit on the people of Ireland.
For my part, I believe that his analysis is the most realistic, pragmatic and sensible to have come from any European politician since the referendum.
No posturing, no vitriol, no hostility, no mischief-making. He puts all the other players in this tragicomedy to shame.
Perhaps Boris will respond by dropping his trousers, in best traditions of Whitehall farce."
Old bean please.... hasnt Boris told him to whistle yet  |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
I have thought for a long time that the Irish question will define Brexit.
There can be no hard border and the only solution is for the UK to join EFTA, and put up with EU regulations, without having any say in formulating those rules.
I'd like to hear a Brexiter come up with any viable solution other than "we will have to wait and see."
Does TM and her Brexit team have even the slightest idea about how the Irish border question can be dealt with? If they do, they have kept it very quiet.
PS Tea Shop lol  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted |
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted"
Free movement of people UK and Ireland existed since 1926or 1922' they could put no tab in it. EUROPEAN community was always free trade. The UK wants out of free movement of people which it did by closing in Commonwealth free movement.of UK passport holders |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted"
Further simple Brexitology statement. No thought, no understanding of the issues at hand and no idea of the consequences of your suggestion. So many holes, I hardly know where to begin....
Who oversees product origination and quality control? Who sets the standards? Presumably it would sense to adhere to the existing CE kitemark? By what authority would any disputes be mediated? Normal practice is that the major partner dictates the jurisdiction so in this it would be European Courts. Still in favour of this free trade deal?
What actually will happen in order to have this (or any) free trade deal is that the UK will accept everything that we accept now but without the influence that we have now. And this begs the question... so what is the point?
Regarding your comment about freedom of movement of cheap labour, are you inferring that only low income jobs should be controlled? Do we still give scientists and engineers free movement, but not cleaners, service staff, farm workers and the like? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted"
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
Further simple Brexitology statement. No thought, no understanding of the issues at hand and no idea of the consequences of your suggestion. So many holes, I hardly know where to begin....
Who oversees product origination and quality control? Who sets the standards? Presumably it would sense to adhere to the existing CE kitemark? By what authority would any disputes be mediated? Normal practice is that the major partner dictates the jurisdiction so in this it would be European Courts. Still in favour of this free trade deal?
What actually will happen in order to have this (or any) free trade deal is that the UK will accept everything that we accept now but without the influence that we have now. And this begs the question... so what is the point?
Regarding your comment about freedom of movement of cheap labour, are you inferring that only low income jobs should be controlled? Do we still give scientists and engineers free movement, but not cleaners, service staff, farm workers and the like?"
Does the EU not have any free trade deals with anyone at the moment? Apparantly they are committed to free trade deals around the world according to Article, whatever number it is, of the Lisbon Treaty. And do you really think that it is beyond the wit of man to mediate unless you are a part of 'the club'? I am saying that all jobs should be controlled but free movement is an excuse for the movement and exploitation of cheap unskilled labour |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different? "
Because we aint fuckin Turkey |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey"
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?"
Population of UK: 65m
Population of Turkey: 79m
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks."
Hell will freeze over before this happens. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?"
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted"
Isn't that the simple "border in the sea" solution that has already been suggested? |
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By *vsnikkiTV/TS
over a year ago
Limavady |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
Isn't that the simple "border in the sea" solution that has already been suggested?"
And rejected by Veradker today, as unworkable. Perhaps more influential in Westminster, it's been rejected by the DUP amongst other NI parties. |
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
Isn't that the simple "border in the sea" solution that has already been suggested?"
It's upto the Uk and Rep of Ireland to sideline the EU on this particular sticking point and come to a bilateral uk-ireland agreement on the border issue. Rep of Ireland has always been a special case with the UK long before we joined the EU. And before any remainers say you can't sideline the EU on this we most certainly can because a bilateral agreement on border controls already exists between Britain and France called the Treaty of Le Touquet which has nothing to do with the EU. Of course Ireland and the uk will need to look at different issues to the ones in the Treaty of Le Touquet but it shows bilateral agreements can be made outside of the EU. I'd say free movement on the island of Ireland for all Irish and UK citizens can be achieved as it's a special case. Vehicle camera recognition technology on the Irish border for vehicles registered in Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland is one such example of where progress is being made and other inventive ways of making the border as open and free as possible will be looked at over the next 2 years of article 50 negotiations. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted"
spoken like someone who has no context of history..... and living in middle england!
so what in fact you are proposing is that to scrap the UK-Ireland agreement that allows people to freely travel between both countries without a passport.....
I quite like the fact i do decide i'd like a day/weekend in cork/dublin for example and just go without any thought.......
and putting proper border crossing on the border....and making everyone living there get passports everytime they wanted to go north/south for work or pleasure.....
cool!!!!!!!
I'd bet you'd suggest the same thing if scotland got independence!!!!!!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
spoken like someone who has no context of history..... and living in middle england!
so what in fact you are proposing is that to scrap the UK-Ireland agreement that allows people to freely travel between both countries without a passport.....
I quite like the fact i do decide i'd like a day/weekend in cork/dublin for example and just go without any thought.......
and putting proper border crossing on the border....and making everyone living there get passports everytime they wanted to go north/south for work or pleasure.....
cool!!!!!!!
I'd bet you'd suggest the same thing if scotland got independence!!!!!! "
You obviously haven't understood what I said |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall"
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
Isn't that the simple "border in the sea" solution that has already been suggested?
It's upto the Uk and Rep of Ireland to sideline the EU on this particular sticking point and come to a bilateral uk-ireland agreement on the border issue. Rep of Ireland has always been a special case with the UK long before we joined the EU. And before any remainers say you can't sideline the EU on this we most certainly can because a bilateral agreement on border controls already exists between Britain and France called the Treaty of Le Touquet which has nothing to do with the EU. Of course Ireland and the uk will need to look at different issues to the ones in the Treaty of Le Touquet but it shows bilateral agreements can be made outside of the EU. I'd say free movement on the island of Ireland for all Irish and UK citizens can be achieved as it's a special case. Vehicle camera recognition technology on the Irish border for vehicles registered in Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland is one such example of where progress is being made and other inventive ways of making the border as open and free as possible will be looked at over the next 2 years of article 50 negotiations. "
Why should Ireland sideline the EU? You are making suggestions that you think will work to achieve solely what you want. What about what Ireland wants and what about what the majority of people on the island of Ireland want? The UK and not Ireland and not the EU are making a unilateral decision to change the rules of the game and so it must be down to the UK to come up with a solution.
It is really typical of the whole Brexit ideology that Ireland and indeed Gibraltar are on issues in the greater scheme of things. They are in fact the big issues. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?"
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere |
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere"
. Well said  |
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
Isn't that the simple "border in the sea" solution that has already been suggested?
It's upto the Uk and Rep of Ireland to sideline the EU on this particular sticking point and come to a bilateral uk-ireland agreement on the border issue. Rep of Ireland has always been a special case with the UK long before we joined the EU. And before any remainers say you can't sideline the EU on this we most certainly can because a bilateral agreement on border controls already exists between Britain and France called the Treaty of Le Touquet which has nothing to do with the EU. Of course Ireland and the uk will need to look at different issues to the ones in the Treaty of Le Touquet but it shows bilateral agreements can be made outside of the EU. I'd say free movement on the island of Ireland for all Irish and UK citizens can be achieved as it's a special case. Vehicle camera recognition technology on the Irish border for vehicles registered in Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland is one such example of where progress is being made and other inventive ways of making the border as open and free as possible will be looked at over the next 2 years of article 50 negotiations.
Why should Ireland sideline the EU? You are making suggestions that you think will work to achieve solely what you want. What about what Ireland wants and what about what the majority of people on the island of Ireland want? The UK and not Ireland and not the EU are making a unilateral decision to change the rules of the game and so it must be down to the UK to come up with a solution.
It is really typical of the whole Brexit ideology that Ireland and indeed Gibraltar are on issues in the greater scheme of things. They are in fact the big issues."
A bilateral agreement between the UK and Rep of Ireland on the border is a solution though and of course it's what I'd like to see because this is a forum thread where people give their own personal opinions. Everyone wants to see a solution because Brexit is happening and a solution needs to be found which everyone can be happy with. Remaining in the EU is simply not an option now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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we already have had an agreement for 100 years ... no need to start fannying about with border checks now, just keep the irish uk border as is .... simple |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted"
naive to say the least!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sortednaive to say the least! "
Why so? Because of politics above people? And your solution is? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"..... if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere"
Over the top? You said..,
"if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall"
I think you started the extreme scenario pitch.
And as for your further comment about the UK having the negotiating advantage, would that not indicate that the UK has the upper hand and that the EU desperately needs a deal with the UK? So why is it not happening? Why have the EU put the future trading relationship nehotiations as the last thing to discuss?
I don't really see anyone going over old arguments other than you with Brexitoligist inference that they need us more than we need them and that the UK has the upper hand. The fact hat you are still saying this whilst the negotiating progress is illustrating otherwise demonstrates just how deeply you are affected by Brexitology. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"we already have had an agreement for 100 years ... no need to start fannying about with border checks now, just keep the irish uk border as is .... simple"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
A bilateral agreement between the UK and Rep of Ireland on the border is a solution though and of course it's what I'd like to see because this is a forum thread where people give their own personal opinions. Everyone wants to see a solution because Brexit is happening and a solution needs to be found which everyone can be happy with. Remaining in the EU is simply not an option now. "
But your suggestion is about railroading the Irish into a solution that suits the UK but not Ireland, its people, or the EU.
Remaining in the EU will start to become an ever more viable option the bigger this clusterfuck gets. The vast majority voted for a simple solution as pitched by Farage. People did not vote to become poorer, to have more hassle in their lives and people did not vote to get problems in N Ireland sgain not for Brexit to go on and on and on and on. Our feckless politicians are unable to unite in their thoughts and ideas and so an ongoing Brexit becomes more likely with every passing week. Democracy is about the will of the people, I think that was the expression used, and so as this journey becomes more hassled, more expensive and seemingly more pointless - don't be surprised if people change their minds as they are perfectly entitled to do.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way."
perhaps you read my post again and you'll realise the idiocy of your response to it ... especially the wild supposition of your second paragraph |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way.
perhaps you read my post again and you'll realise the idiocy of your response to it ... especially the wild supposition of your second paragraph"
Idiocy is to expect an arrangement made at a time when neither country was in the Eu, but now both are and one wants to leave. The laws and rules have changed. Perhaps you don't understand that? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The simple solution for the UK is to check and share all products/people entering into northern Ireland at the airport/port.
The DUP does not want this, they think its insane to put checks between yourself and your biggest trade partner (northern ireland and the UK). This despite them voting to put checks between GB and its biggest trade partner the EU.
There is no workable way to put in place a "soft hard border", this is one where cameras scan the border. The reason for this is Ireland can not allow a non EU country to just drive in with a van full of god knows what. Once its in the EU Ireland could export it to the EU and create a smuggling route of products with no EU tax paid.
For example, all cars passing from switzerland to France get checked, as far as I know. The only possible way to avoid this is to do the electronic checks at the ports/border.
The fact is, Ireland has been the UKs greatest friend. They are nothing but a cash cow for the UK. They are more than willing to work to keep as many jobs in the UK as possible. They are more than willing to keep every contract with the UK they have in place. They have no appetite to move their business to France and Germany and Spain. They have also paid over 60% for some roads in northern Ireland and sent businesses to northern Ireland for jobs. Irish people died in tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands fighting for the UK in ww2, even though at the time they were fighting for their own freedom.
When you have a friend like that, where you have differences but at the end of the day back each other when it counts, then there is no need to force an issue.
Put checks on the ports and Ireland will force the EU to accept it without drawing up new agreements, or new travel areas.
The alternative of making an enemy of Ireland by forcing a hard border, and trying to force some free trade deal through will just make the Ireland move its trade to the EU and the EU try to pull out as many jobs from the UK as they can.
At the moment, the UK can open offices in Dublin, set up modest staff and continue as normal. In a hard exit they will have to move all employees to Dublin and germany and france etc. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
A bilateral agreement between the UK and Rep of Ireland on the border is a solution though and of course it's what I'd like to see because this is a forum thread where people give their own personal opinions. Everyone wants to see a solution because Brexit is happening and a solution needs to be found which everyone can be happy with. Remaining in the EU is simply not an option now.
But your suggestion is about railroading the Irish into a solution that suits the UK but not Ireland, its people, or the EU.
Remaining in the EU will start to become an ever more viable option the bigger this clusterfuck gets. The vast majority voted for a simple solution as pitched by Farage. People did not vote to become poorer, to have more hassle in their lives and people did not vote to get problems in N Ireland sgain not for Brexit to go on and on and on and on. Our feckless politicians are unable to unite in their thoughts and ideas and so an ongoing Brexit becomes more likely with every passing week. Democracy is about the will of the people, I think that was the expression used, and so as this journey becomes more hassled, more expensive and seemingly more pointless - don't be surprised if people change their minds as they are perfectly entitled to do.
"
Ahh, whatever happens it's what the "majority" voted for, let'em crack on, whatever happens will be worth it they say |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way.
perhaps you read my post again and you'll realise the idiocy of your response to it ... especially the wild supposition of your second paragraph
Idiocy is to expect an arrangement made at a time when neither country was in the Eu, but now both are and one wants to leave. The laws and rules have changed. Perhaps you don't understand that?"
i understand the implications far more than you do and that is absolutely clear |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere"
try going into a dealership or indeed any Tesco as a buyer and see if you can dictate anything |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way.
perhaps you read my post again and you'll realise the idiocy of your response to it ... especially the wild supposition of your second paragraph
Idiocy is to expect an arrangement made at a time when neither country was in the Eu, but now both are and one wants to leave. The laws and rules have changed. Perhaps you don't understand that?
i understand the implications far more than you do and that is absolutely clear"
This is what you said...
"we already have had an agreement for 100 years ... no need to start fannying about with border checks now, just keep the irish uk border as is .... simple"
And you stated that you understand the implications of Ireland being in the EU and the UK leaving.
Clearly you do not understand the implications at all. If you do, you can tell us how the UK, N. Ireland and Ireland can prevent tariff differential, cross border smuggling with a soft border and prevent a return to sectarianism with a hard border. |
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere try going into a dealership or indeed any Tesco as a buyer and see if you can dictate anything "
You've never heard of the term 'the customer is always right' then? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere try going into a dealership or indeed any Tesco as a buyer and see if you can dictate anything
You've never heard of the term 'the customer is always right' then? "
I can just see you now, wandering into Tesco. Picking up a 50" LCD TV, and chucking a £20 note on the till as you walk out. Being confronted by store security and saying "The customer is always right!".
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere try going into a dealership or indeed any Tesco as a buyer and see if you can dictate anything
You've never heard of the term 'the customer is always right' then?
I can just see you now, wandering into Tesco. Picking up a 50" LCD TV, and chucking a £20 note on the till as you walk out. Being confronted by store security and saying "The customer is always right!".
-Matt"
Hes so precious |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere try going into a dealership or indeed any Tesco as a buyer and see if you can dictate anything
You've never heard of the term 'the customer is always right' then?
I can just see you now, wandering into Tesco. Picking up a 50" LCD TV, and chucking a £20 note on the till as you walk out. Being confronted by store security and saying "The customer is always right!".
-Matt"
Why is Tesco so cheap? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way.
perhaps you read my post again and you'll realise the idiocy of your response to it ... especially the wild supposition of your second paragraph
Idiocy is to expect an arrangement made at a time when neither country was in the Eu, but now both are and one wants to leave. The laws and rules have changed. Perhaps you don't understand that?
i understand the implications far more than you do and that is absolutely clear
This is what you said...
"we already have had an agreement for 100 years ... no need to start fannying about with border checks now, just keep the irish uk border as is .... simple"
And you stated that you understand the implications of Ireland being in the EU and the UK leaving.
Clearly you do not understand the implications at all. If you do, you can tell us how the UK, N. Ireland and Ireland can prevent tariff differential, cross border smuggling with a soft border and prevent a return to sectarianism with a hard border."
smuggling? what the fuck are you talking about? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
Because Ireland is part of the EU and the UK wants out of the EU. The UK wants to change the rules and expects everyone to dance to their tune. Why should anyone change anything just because the UK has thrown their toys out of the pram?
Perhaps you still see Ireland as the close former colony who we can still bully? The Irish don't see it that way.
perhaps you read my post again and you'll realise the idiocy of your response to it ... especially the wild supposition of your second paragraph
Idiocy is to expect an arrangement made at a time when neither country was in the Eu, but now both are and one wants to leave. The laws and rules have changed. Perhaps you don't understand that?
i understand the implications far more than you do and that is absolutely clear
This is what you said...
"we already have had an agreement for 100 years ... no need to start fannying about with border checks now, just keep the irish uk border as is .... simple"
And you stated that you understand the implications of Ireland being in the EU and the UK leaving.
Clearly you do not understand the implications at all. If you do, you can tell us how the UK, N. Ireland and Ireland can prevent tariff differential, cross border smuggling with a soft border and prevent a return to sectarianism with a hard border.
smuggling? what the fuck are you talking about? "
You know the Customs Union that the UK is threatening to leave along with the Single Market (that Ireland is staying in). It means that tariffs will be different on products in Northern Ireland and Eire. An open border with different tariffs on different products would result in criminal gangs running smuggling rackets. That is why there are normally hard customs borders between countries not aligned within s customs union.
You don't understand the implications at all do you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
You don't understand the implications at all do you."
i understand the implications perfectly and it's absolutely clear from your idiotic suppositions that you do not ... now stop wasting my time with your stalking |
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"You know the Customs Union that the UK is threatening to leave along with the Single Market (that Ireland is staying in). It means that tariffs will be different on products in Northern Ireland and Eire. An open border with different tariffs on different products would result in criminal gangs running smuggling rackets. That is why there are normally hard customs borders between countries not aligned within s customs union.
You don't understand the implications at all do you."
OMG!
You really have little or no idea how the 'border' worked prior to the 'troubles' and the EU.
The law was simple, if you carried or drove livestock over the border for profit it was a crime, if your livestock wandered over the border, no foul, no crime. So farmers would drive to 100 mtrs of the unload their livestock and leave them to 'wander' over the border where a 'friend' would load them into the conveniently waiting transport and take them to market. There was thriving trade over the border. There were even 'shopping trains' run between Dublin and Belfast and drivers would buy fuel on whichever side of the border it was cheapest. That was the price the UK had to accept for partitioning Ireland in 1922. The UK government really needs to understand that if they choose to renege on the partition treaties then there will be costs. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"You know the Customs Union that the UK is threatening to leave along with the Single Market (that Ireland is staying in). It means that tariffs will be different on products in Northern Ireland and Eire. An open border with different tariffs on different products would result in criminal gangs running smuggling rackets. That is why there are normally hard customs borders between countries not aligned within s customs union.
You don't understand the implications at all do you.
OMG!
You really have little or no idea how the 'border' worked prior to the 'troubles' and the EU.
The law was simple, if you carried or drove livestock over the border for profit it was a crime, if your livestock wandered over the border, no foul, no crime. So farmers would drive to 100 mtrs of the unload their livestock and leave them to 'wander' over the border where a 'friend' would load them into the conveniently waiting transport and take them to market. There was thriving trade over the border. There were even 'shopping trains' run between Dublin and Belfast and drivers would buy fuel on whichever side of the border it was cheapest. That was the price the UK had to accept for partitioning Ireland in 1922. The UK government really needs to understand that if they choose to renege on the partition treaties then there will be costs. "
Is that not what I am saying?
Do I have mental dyslexia or something because that is exactly what I understand to be the case. |
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"Is that not what I am saying?
Do I have mental dyslexia or something because that is exactly what I understand to be the case."
No you said it would result in criminal gangs running smuggling rackets.
What I said was it didn't before the troubles and EU so why would that happen now? If the border is open people will just go back to how it was up till the 70's. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Is that not what I am saying?
Do I have mental dyslexia or something because that is exactly what I understand to be the case.
No you said it would result in criminal gangs running smuggling rackets.
What I said was it didn't before the troubles and EU so why would that happen now? If the border is open people will just go back to how it was up till the 70's."
Which is smuggling? |
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"
You've never heard of the term 'the customer is always right' then? "
Thats in reference to marketing. The customer is always right when it comes to whats good marketing. Idiots heard the phrase and try to use it as a universal truth for everything. |
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By *vsnikkiTV/TS
over a year ago
Limavady |
"Is that not what I am saying?
Do I have mental dyslexia or something because that is exactly what I understand to be the case.
No you said it would result in criminal gangs running smuggling rackets.
What I said was it didn't before the troubles and EU so why would that happen now? If the border is open people will just go back to how it was up till the 70's."
A big difference now is that Ireland will be in EU whereas NI is in the UK. As EU may impose import restrictions, so there may be a "hard" border. |
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By *exmark12Man
over a year ago
Rathcoole/Roscommon/Mayo |
Glad to see discussion and some understanding of Irish UK relationship.Independence came in 1922.There was free movement for almost 400 years of occupation.U are right Brexit is a disaster for everybody.The arrogant Firage Gove Johnson got a free run from the half hearted no campaign
The Empire is no more its time those guys realise this. |
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By *vsnikkiTV/TS
over a year ago
Limavady |
"Why not hand it back and solve an allmost century of problems."
Why doesn't Poland hand back Gdansk to Germany or France hand back Calais to UK. The majority of people in Northern Ireland are not Irish and want to stay in a Union in the UK. It's a minority that want to force the majority to accept a political solution of a United Ireland. |
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"The majority of people in Northern Ireland are not Irish and want to stay in a Union in the UK. It's a minority that want to force the majority to accept a political solution of a United Ireland."
There are two points here, firstly although the majority in NI were the descendants of Scottish Presbyterians dispossessed in the highland clearances and then planted in Ireland by the very English who had dispossessed them to do the same to the native population of Ireland, I am not sure they can continue to claim to be the majority. In fact I am pretty certain that if parity has not been reached already it will be soon and shortly after that the protestants are going to find themselves in the minority. It is a very risky and dangerous strategy to use a marginal majority to impose sectarian rule on a minority that will soon be the majority because payback is generally harsh.
Secondly, to say it is a minority that want the reunification of Ireland is disingenuous because that has not been put to the test. However what is known is that over 55% of those that voted in the referendum voted to remain in the EU, and while the UK and the ROI remain in the EU NI and the ROI were effectively partially united and that this partial unification played a large part in bringing about the Good Friday agreement. Further, it could be argued that the only vote that has taken place in NI that reflects the will of the people with regard to unification is the brexit referendum and that therefore it is the unionist minority that is forcing the pro EU majority out of the EU and to remain a part of the UK.
I look forward to reading your reply. |
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"Why not hand it back and solve an allmost century of problems."
In other words, retain what has been Northern Ireland in the EU. Anyone there would gain Irish nationality and passports?
The hard right wing in the Conservatives are happy to screw over the UK with a no deal, which would be a bad finish and care little for the everyday people who voted for what they thought would be a solution geared towards them. No enforced repatriation to a different country, not the creation of a UK that wasn't ready for the huge complexity and costs of ongoing disagreement and negotiations with a partner with the upper hand. |
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"Very brief reply. At the last two election more people voted for parties in favour of a Union in UK than voted for parties that don't. "
So if and when the nationalists have more votes then you think N. Ireland and the Republic ahould be reunited? |
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The sooner the union is dissolved, the better.
Perhaps then the territorial, political and economic landscape will force the English establishment to lose their addiction to war and the projection of power and devote more resources to looking after the populace.
Not sure if modern Ireland is particularly enthusiastic about the practical implications of embracing orange intransigence and reactionary bloody-mindedness, however. |
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"The UK trade freely with the EU as they do at the moment and with no tariffs etc. but without being under the ECJ and without the freedom of movement of cheap labour bollocks. Passports of anyone travelling between Ireland and the mainland UK can be checked. It is hardly a problem. Sorted
The EU-Turkey trade deal is arbitrated by the ECJ, why would a UK deal be different?
Because we aint fuckin Turkey
But as a junior party in the deal it is absolute normal protocol to accept the senior sides choice of legal fallback. Are you suggesting that the EU would accept a free trade deal with a minority partner on terms dictated by the minority partner?
No, on terms agreed by both parties. And back to the subject of Ireland, if the EU doesn't agree to what the UK wants then an EU member, ie Ireland, goes to the wall
Is that the kind of post EU "deep" relationship that you think TM wants? You are really suggesting that a successful negotiating stance would be to say... "Give us what we want or we will make you starve."
Have heard of the potato famine?
Yes. But why do you have to go over the top about everything? And is the UK really a junior party in the negotiations? In business isn't it usually the buyer who dictates/has the biggest say on trading terms? Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK have a trade deficit with the EU? Or in other words we are more of a buyer than a supplier so we have the advantage. And once again I will repeat that I didn't vote for Brexit but now is the time to look for the positives and the solutions. Going over old arguments to justify the way you voted will get us nowhere"
Very much the junior partner.
Far more trade takes place within the EU than from external sources.
The UK produces nothing that can't be sourced internally in the EU.
The entire argument has changed from
"we'll flourish outside" to " it won't hurt that much ". |
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