FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Indy 2 still on for Scotland
Indy 2 still on for Scotland
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao " Whats the point in talking about something that will not be happening for at least 2 years. I for one am sick of hearing about Indyref2 and Brexit lets just see what happens then talk about it. | |||
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"Independence was never an issue with me, I voted for it and will vote for it again. The thing that drew me away from the SNP was their pro EU stance and their determination to invite every foreigner they could get into Scotland other incompetence was also an issue, such as Raising Stamp Duty in Scotland, minimum alcohol pricing, tightened drink driving, I cant really blame them for poor school results as Scottish kids today simply do not want to learn. " You don't think tightening drink driving laws was a good idea?? 
I think you're the only person I've ever heard saying that.
I really don't see how anybody can say that drinking and driving is acceptable at any level. I'd have the level set at zero if I had my way. | |||
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"Now hopefully the pro union branch offices will get on with their day job instead of talking about Independence non stop. Also will be very interesting to hear what Ruth Davidson and her wee 13 Scottish Tory mp's will do to project Scotland's place in the single market remember Ruth Davidson was all for staying in the EU and single market at the expense of freedom of movement then u-turned meaning she got telt off her bosses to do as she is told. Also lets remember Ruth Davidson stood in Holyrood asking the Scottish government what they will do to protect Scotland's place in the single market. So either Ruth and her we 13 mp's will protect Scotland and stand up for Scotland or will the run and hide and get telt from their bosses in Westminster what stance to take. Interesting times. Like i said what is so wrong about letting the Scottish people a right to decide on the final brexit deal or independence considering Scotland's majority rejected brexit and the Tories. Its time they proved what they say that this is a family of nations and equal partnership in the UK or the UK will break up " It has never been an equal partnership, more of a takeover. If Westminster pays no attention to Scotland when it returns all but three MP's from a pro-independence party, it never will. When indyref 2 comes along, the SNP will need to up its game and not allow the unionists' lies and dirty tricks to prevail in the propaganda war. Which is difficult, given that the hostility to Scottish self-determination from the media is almost total, but the narrative is crucial. Admitting to past mistakes such as Police Scotland and promising a post-independence referendum on NATO and EC membership would be a good place to start. | |||
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"Now hopefully the pro union branch offices will get on with their day job instead of talking about Independence non stop. Also will be very interesting to hear what Ruth Davidson and her wee 13 Scottish Tory mp's will do to project Scotland's place in the single market remember Ruth Davidson was all for staying in the EU and single market at the expense of freedom of movement then u-turned meaning she got telt off her bosses to do as she is told. Also lets remember Ruth Davidson stood in Holyrood asking the Scottish government what they will do to protect Scotland's place in the single market. So either Ruth and her we 13 mp's will protect Scotland and stand up for Scotland or will the run and hide and get telt from their bosses in Westminster what stance to take. Interesting times. Like i said what is so wrong about letting the Scottish people a right to decide on the final brexit deal or independence considering Scotland's majority rejected brexit and the Tories. Its time they proved what they say that this is a family of nations and equal partnership in the UK or the UK will break up It has never been an equal partnership, more of a takeover. If Westminster pays no attention to Scotland when it returns all but three MP's from a pro-independence party, it never will. When indyref 2 comes along, the SNP will need to up its game and not allow the unionists' lies and dirty tricks to prevail in the propaganda war. Which is difficult, given that the hostility to Scottish self-determination from the media is almost total, but the narrative is crucial. Admitting to past mistakes such as Police Scotland and promising a post-independence referendum on NATO and EC membership would be a good place to start." I understand where you are coming from there and fully applaud your commitment to being reasonable. However... that would be a mistake. Do not - under any circumstances - accept any criticism of the SNP in a discussion on Independence. Not because the SNP can do no wrong, they clearly can and have, but simply because its irrelevant. Criticising the SNP will be exactly one of the dirty tricks that Unionists will pull out of the bag during the next indyref. Don't fall for it - its a strawman, and also easily countered by pointing out how eager the unionists are to discuss purely Scottish political matters .  | |||
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao Whats the point in talking about something that will not be happening for at least 2 years. I for one am sick of hearing about Indyref2 and Brexit lets just see what happens then talk about it."  | |||
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"Independence was never an issue with me, I voted for it and will vote for it again. The thing that drew me away from the SNP was their pro EU stance and their determination to invite every foreigner they could get into Scotland other incompetence was also an issue, such as Raising Stamp Duty in Scotland, minimum alcohol pricing, tightened drink driving, I cant really blame them for poor school results as Scottish kids today simply do not want to learn. You don't think tightening drink driving laws was a good idea??
I think you're the only person I've ever heard saying that.
I really don't see how anybody can say that drinking and driving is acceptable at any level. I'd have the level set at zero if I had my way." | |||
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"Independence was never an issue with me, I voted for it and will vote for it again. The thing that drew me away from the SNP was their pro EU stance and their determination to invite every foreigner they could get into Scotland other incompetence was also an issue, such as Raising Stamp Duty in Scotland, minimum alcohol pricing, tightened drink driving, I cant really blame them for poor school results as Scottish kids today simply do not want to learn. You don't think tightening drink driving laws was a good idea??
I think you're the only person I've ever heard saying that.
I really don't see how anybody can say that drinking and driving is acceptable at any level. I'd have the level set at zero if I had my way."I guess you don't get out enough if you don't think you have heard any other commenting on the above. The Law set in England is suffice to enable a glass of wine with a meal and I consider that acceptable I do not agree with Scotland's drink drive law, but it is the law and I abide with it. In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the legal alcohol limit for drivers is: •80 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of blood in your body •35 micrograms of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of breath •107 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of urine In Scotland, the legal alcohol limit for drivers is: •50 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of blood in your body •22 micrograms of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of breath •67 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of urine I note you have no comment on stamp duty, minimum price for alcohol and schooling, so I presume you agree with me on these items, as well as the EU | |||
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"Independence was never an issue with me, I voted for it and will vote for it again. The thing that drew me away from the SNP was their pro EU stance and their determination to invite every foreigner they could get into Scotland other incompetence was also an issue, such as Raising Stamp Duty in Scotland, minimum alcohol pricing, tightened drink driving, I cant really blame them for poor school results as Scottish kids today simply do not want to learn. You don't think tightening drink driving laws was a good idea??
I think you're the only person I've ever heard saying that.
I really don't see how anybody can say that drinking and driving is acceptable at any level. I'd have the level set at zero if I had my way.
I guess you don't get out enough if you don't think you have heard any other commenting on the above.
The Law set in England is suffice to enable a glass of wine with a meal and I consider that acceptable
I do not agree with Scotland's drink drive law, but it is the law and I abide with it.
In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the legal alcohol limit for drivers is:
•80 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of blood in your body
•35 micrograms of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of breath
•107 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of urine
In Scotland, the legal alcohol limit for drivers is:
•50 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of blood in your body
•22 micrograms of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of breath
•67 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of urine
I note you have no comment on stamp duty, minimum price for alcohol and schooling, so I presume you agree with me on these items, as well as the EU
"No, I don't agree with you. As I said, I'd like to see the alcohol level set at zero, I'm fully in favour of a minimum price for alcohol. Alcohol is every bit as damaging as tobacco and it's heavily taxed. Same should apply to alcohol. No idea about stamp duty so can't comment. On education, I fully agree that things can and should be better but I still believe that education in Scotland (and the NHS in Scotland) are in a far better place that these services are in England. | |||
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"but I still believe that education in Scotland (and the NHS in Scotland) are in a far better place that these services are in England." What are you basing this on exactly? Because I can assure you they aren't in a far better place than in England. | |||
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"The stunning hypocrisy of the SNP is shown up again today. They voted with Labour at Westminster to end the 1% pay cap and yet only last month in Hollyrood they voted against Labour so they could keep it in place. Incredible." And don't forget. The Scottish Government have certain devolved tax powers, so they could have easily raised the basic rate to pay for Public Sector pay increases. They chose not to. | |||
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"but I still believe that education in Scotland (and the NHS in Scotland) are in a far better place that these services are in England. What are you basing this on exactly? Because I can assure you they aren't in a far better place than in England." I guess you don't watch or read the news very much. Schools in England having to reach children wearing coats because they can't afford to heat the classrooms, parents having to hold jumble sales to raise money for text books, teachers leaders pointing out that education in England is in crisis. I'm not saying education in Scotland isn't in need of improvement but at least we're not at the stage of having to send children to school in thermals. | |||
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"The stunning hypocrisy of the SNP is shown up again today. They voted with Labour at Westminster to end the 1% pay cap and yet only last month in Hollyrood they voted against Labour so they could keep it in place. Incredible. And don't forget. The Scottish Government have certain devolved tax powers, so they could have easily raised the basic rate to pay for Public Sector pay increases. They chose not to." The simple fact of the matter was that an increase in the tax rate would have resulted in a lower tax income. Only an idiot would go for that. However, a similar tax hike across the UK as a whole would have the opposite result. That's why the SNP are in favour of a UK wide tax rise but not one in Scotland. | |||
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"The stunning hypocrisy of the SNP is shown up again today. They voted with Labour at Westminster to end the 1% pay cap and yet only last month in Hollyrood they voted against Labour so they could keep it in place. Incredible. And don't forget. The Scottish Government have certain devolved tax powers, so they could have easily raised the basic rate to pay for Public Sector pay increases. They chose not to. The simple fact of the matter was that an increase in the tax rate would have resulted in a lower tax income. Only an idiot would go for that. However, a similar tax hike across the UK as a whole would have the opposite result. That's why the SNP are in favour of a UK wide tax rise but not one in Scotland." I think that the SNP were worried that higher rate tax payers would make "alternative" arrangements, should they have increased that rate of tax. I find it hard to believe, that a rise of 1p on the basic rate of income tax, would have led to a drop in tax revenue. | |||
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"That's why the SNP are in favour of a UK wide tax rise but not one in Scotland." Are we too poor and too wee? Make the English pay more so Scotland can benefit from their increased taxes. No wonder we have a horrendous defecit. | |||
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"but I still believe that education in Scotland (and the NHS in Scotland) are in a far better place that these services are in England. What are you basing this on exactly? Because I can assure you they aren't in a far better place than in England. I guess you don't watch or read the news very much. Schools in England having to reach children wearing coats because they can't afford to heat the classrooms, parents having to hold jumble sales to raise money for text books, teachers leaders pointing out that education in England is in crisis. I'm not saying education in Scotland isn't in need of improvement but at least we're not at the stage of having to send children to school in thermals." I thought Yes voters didn't believe the MSM? Also, if that is the level of information you are using to base your assertion that education and health are doing far better in Scotland than England then it's no wonder you're so wrong. On that note though, I'm surprised you never seen the news about a school in Swinney's constituency asking for help from parents to teach maths. However we'll use some real, internationally recognised, credible data to look at performance - the PISA scores. They measure maths, reading and science. If we take the 2006 to 2015 figures it gives us an idea of how Scotland has done while under the SNP. The mean scores for the 3 subjects for England was 516 and they've dropped to 512 in 2015. In Scotland they were 515 in 2006 and have dropped to 497 on 2015. So English schools are outperforming Scottish ones in these core subjects. Scotland also has it's own testing regime that shows performance but the SNP in their wisdom have scrapped it from this year as they didn't like the results. Let's not forget this poor performance is actually worse when you consider Scotland gets an extra 10% funding due to the barnett formula. With regards to the NHS I can post a fair amount of data (The Scottish Governments own) that shows areas it's doing poorly in and worse than in England. For now I'll leave it at something I posted on another thread on here about spending on health. This is from an IFS report. "So I've had a look at the IFS report on UK health spending and it confirms the following: "UK health and social care spending © Institute for Fiscal Studies 143 Health (DH) spending grew by 9.0% in real terms between 2009–10 and 2015–16. The increase in health spending in England is larger than that seen in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, where the respective devolved administrations made different decisions about health spending, resulting in real-terms growth between 2009–10 and 2014–15 of only 4.5% in Northern Ireland, and a real-terms freeze in health spending in Scotland and Wales over this period." So basically the Tories increased spending by a fair bit and the SNP froze it, despite getting extra funds. | |||
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"That's why the SNP are in favour of a UK wide tax rise but not one in Scotland. Are we too poor and too wee? Make the English pay more so Scotland can benefit from their increased taxes. No wonder we have a horrendous defecit. " Yes you are. I am sick of the skirt wearers bleating about being poor while the English support and defend you. Get a grip ginge | |||
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"Brexit wont happen." Ever the optimist, Shag. A number of Labour MPs voted on a motion to keep us in the single market. That included three shadow cabinet members who were then sacked on the spot, and very publicly. It is Labour policy to LEAVE the single market and the customs union (p29 of their manifesto). If both Labour and the Tories are insisting on these things....then from where does your logic come? (Don't say Sweden) | |||
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"Ah the old Scottish people are subsidy junkie theory that the Scottish people leech off the English Yet to hear good answer to why would Westminster be hell bent to keep Scotland then you since the Tories are in power and love cutting the shit out of things if Scottish people leech then why not cut Scotland off and save money oh wait the know the need Scotland How about this what get made in England and exported to Scotland ? " Money! | |||
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". Yes you are. I am sick of the skirt wearers bleating about being poor while the English support and defend you. Get a grip ginge" I see a lack of education reverts people to be abusive and insulting, is their any need for comments like this one above | |||
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"I totally agree with you why would the Scots or any other nation vote to be poorer, less educated, defended etc.. The SNP and there defenders sound so desperate, they know they are on the way down. The end is nigh for Nicola, she will retire as leader before 2021 i believe. She is not stupid enough to have a referendum that she will lose by at least 20% if it was held tomorrow...Hence the Bullshit she is spouting ..... "Again SNP is not independence and independence is not SNP The end is near ? Yet SNP in 10 years have won the 2007 , 2011 , 2015 , 2016 , 2017 Scottish and UK elections No one is asking for a independence referendum right now or tomorrow it was made very clear when the brexit deal is known to give Scottish people the right to decide if they agree with final brexit deal or not considering Scotland's majority vote rejected brexit to deny Scottish people the right to decide. Now its upto the shite branch offices of Labour , Tory and Lib Dem to shut the fuck up about independence and for them to get on with the day job but we all know thats never gonna happen why because thats all they have is to talk about independence and hoodwink people because they have fuck all policies to protect Scotland. Remember Ruth Davidson asking the Scottish government what will they do to protect being in the single market now the u-turn she doesnt give a fuck being telt from the bosses down south Remember Kezia Dugdale telling people Scottish Labour will support the SNP on trying to protect the single market and what did the Scottish Labour mp's do last night oh thats right they did what Labour do best they abstained so in all Labour and the Tories do NOT give a fuck about staying in the single market and you wonder why people in Scotland no NOT trust these fuckers in Labour and we all know never trust the Tories. In all unless these brexit talks come out in favor of staying in the single market and for Scotland's government to be there in the talks then yes Scotland will 100% have an independence referendum. Interesting times must have pissed alot of pro hardcore unionists off that Nicola didnt take a democratic triple lock mandate off the table lol | |||
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"I totally agree with you why would the Scots or any other nation vote to be poorer, less educated, defended etc.. The SNP and there defenders sound so desperate, they know they are on the way down. The end is nigh for Nicola, she will retire as leader before 2021 i believe. She is not stupid enough to have a referendum that she will lose by at least 20% if it was held tomorrow...Hence the Bullshit she is spouting .....
Again SNP is not independence and independence is not SNP
The end is near ? Yet SNP in 10 years have won the 2007 , 2011 , 2015 , 2016 , 2017 Scottish and UK elections
No one is asking for a independence referendum right now or tomorrow it was made very clear when the brexit deal is known to give Scottish people the right to decide if they agree with final brexit deal or not considering Scotland's majority vote rejected brexit to deny Scottish people the right to decide.
Now its upto the shite branch offices of Labour , Tory and Lib Dem to shut the fuck up about independence and for them to get on with the day job but we all know thats never gonna happen why because thats all they have is to talk about independence and hoodwink people because they have fuck all policies to protect Scotland.
Remember Ruth Davidson asking the Scottish government what will they do to protect being in the single market now the u-turn she doesnt give a fuck being telt from the bosses down south
Remember Kezia Dugdale telling people Scottish Labour will support the SNP on trying to protect the single market and what did the Scottish Labour mp's do last night oh thats right they did what Labour do best they abstained so in all
Labour and the Tories do NOT give a fuck about staying in the single market and you wonder why people in Scotland no NOT trust these fuckers in Labour and we all know never trust the Tories.
In all unless these brexit talks come out in favor of staying in the single market and for Scotland's government to be there in the talks then yes Scotland will 100% have an independence referendum.
Interesting times must have pissed alot of pro hardcore unionists off that Nicola didnt take a democratic triple lock mandate off the table lol "Well Said, and factual | |||
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"Fact...The EU referendum vote was for the UK to leave....Now as democrats we accept the result......But as myopic Scottish independence acolytes, you have no such compulsion..You just witter your SNP inspired guff...You like to boast about winning elections...which as democrats i accept however...... The EU referendum was not for any individual nation it was for the UK as a whole.......So i accept the result and move on.....Are you big enough to accept that sometimes the result does not go your way ...i suspect not "Who? exactly are you referring to? when you say "You" is it a "collective" you as in everyone or a specific person?????? | |||
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"Fact...The EU referendum vote was for the UK to leave....Now as democrats we accept the result......But as myopic Scottish independence acolytes, you have no such compulsion..You just witter your SNP inspired guff...You like to boast about winning elections...which as democrats i accept however...... The EU referendum was not for any individual nation it was for the UK as a whole.......So i accept the result and move on.....Are you big enough to accept that sometimes the result does not go your way ...i suspect not "Can i ask you honestly what is it you find so wrong about giving the Scottish people the right to decide on if they agree to brexit considering the Scottish majority rejected brexit ? In any future referendum on independence if you really dont agree with independence you will still be able to vote no again if thats what you believe but to deny people the right to change their minds is sooo damn wrong and very undemocratic surely you can see that and agree ? | |||
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"Well if that is your idea of democracy is to keep going till you get a result that you agree with......Then no i do not agree....I assume if the vote had been a Yes vote on independence you would be pissed at demands for a re run. You seem not to sense that with Labour moving leftwards , your being outflanked The Snp is terrified of a General election, support is draining as people realise they are only a protest party who have little idea of how to govern.....You and i both know no matter the outcome of the Brexit talks that Sturgeon will declare them unacceptable...It is her only card left to play...she is looking increasingly desperate and tired. "Right so what i can gather from that is you are happy to deny Scottish people the right to decide if they agree with brexit or want independence ? Also you ask if it had been a YES vote in 2014 would i have been pissed off if there was a referendum to rejoin the UK ? My answer to that is... See if Scotland were to become independent and say a party put it in a manifesto to have a referendum on rejoining and forming the UK again then i would respect that party has a mandate to deliver on that policy then its upto the people. Now what pro unionists seem to not respect is the SNP do have a triple lock mandate to hold a referendum on when the brexit deal is known to allow the Scottish people to decide on if they agree to brexit or not. Lmao yeah keep dreaming that the Scottish Labour branch have a chance of winning a UK election in Scotland. Lmao who have little idea of governing Scotland ? Really then how do you explain the last 10 years of SNP government in Scotland ? Must be doing something right if they have the trust of the Scottish voters correct ? Can i ask are you happy about being taken out of the single market ? or is it case you dont care and would just accept it anyway and watch 80,000 lost ? At least Nicola is giving the Scottish people a damn option where is the unionist branch leaders are pretty much not giving a flying fuck like said Ruth Davidson asked the Scottish government what they would do to protect the single market and guess what Ruth now has gave up and put party before country and as Kezia Dugdale remember she said Scottish Labour would support the SNP in fighting for the single market and when the vote took place in Holyrood they voted against it and last night the Scottish Labour MP's abstained on keeping the single market who is really lying eh ? | |||
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"You seem to have a problem realising that the Labour party is following the will of the people...The EU vote is to leave...Sturgeon is the one who is not respecting the democratic vote... Her triple lock is a last throw of the dice. Take a look at the shrinking majorities in an awful lot of seats. The next election will see them down size further. I realise your passionate in your will to be independent but i cannot feel the same when i think it is the work of snake oil politics..Where is the honesty in what will become of a newly "Free Scotland Not even an idea of the currency that we will use or lender of last resort...3 years later and we still do not know .... Defence ? a failing devolved education policy ? an economy which lags behind the rest of the country....The Barnett formula lost and no idea how to replace the lost income...I admire your optimism in the future, which is based on optimism and little if any real thought out policy. But please remember that voting to make you fellow Scots poorer does not make you a patriot" So you think Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale saying they will support the SNP on protecting the single market then in Holyrood voting against it and last night the Scottish Labour mp's abstaining on the single market is acceptable ? Nicola is fighting to remain in the single market which again needs point out Ruth and Kezia did say what was the Scottish government going to do to protect the single market and Kezia saying she will back the SNP then the Bain Principle kicked in heard of that before ? Last throw of the dice ? HOw is it you work that out when then already had a mandate from the 2016 Scottish election. So the Triple lock mandate adds to the existing mandate to hold an independence referendum where yes you can choose to vote no again but to deny people the right to change their minds is very wrong and a very dark path the UK is going in where it appears people are happy to say fuck off to a democratic vote to hold a referendum because they dont like the fact there could be one. Right you heard it from Mr unelected lord Darling said Scotland can use the pound correct ? Scottish education is the best in the UK 10 years of SNP government proves it or do people believe every election people vote SNP because of you know independence lol Economy ? How is the rest of the UK economy looking right now Trillions in debt is that now something to be proud of ? Talking of Barnett do you like the fact the Tories doing dirty deals with the DUP paying them off with a bribe of 1 billion but offer fuck all extra money to Scotland ? There is your equal union a bribe to keep the Tories in power. Wake up so you think Scotland is looking great in this fucked up UK union ? Is that what you really want is the Tories cutting Scotland's budget ? Thats making your fellow Scottish people poorer is Tory cuts then pro unionists have the cheek to call them SNP cuts when money is not devolved ? What is it you want the Scottish government to keep mitigating Tory cuts ? What i see is pro unionists moan about the SNP not spending enough then be ok with the SNP having to mitigate Tory polices say like the bedroom tax. How about this give Scotland real devolved powers of full and i mean FULL control not piss poor devolved powers where Westminster still have some power instead of the Scottish government having to mitigate Tory cuts and then there will be money to spend on the NHS and that Also remember this from 2014 the NHS unionist swore was safe in the UK now those same unionists claim the NHS is in chaos so now they safe its not safe in the UK great to have you on board So from 2014 we can see .. Ship yards Steel works EU NHS HMRC jobs Were not safe in the UK as promised but strange how unionists in Scotland dont seem to care about those lies as you will all know the SNP had to go and find buyers for the Steel works and Ship yards or alot of those workers would be out a job where the fuck was the thanks to the SNP for saving those workers jobs nope unionists cant bring themselves to say thanks to the SNP that promise in 2014 was unheld but none the less Better Together lied about those promises being safe in the UK not that people care its the UK union at any cost even if it makes breaking promises and NOT offering Scotland Home rule Lets see how Brexit turns out now that the pro union branch offices can now shit the fuck up about independence lets see them get on with the day job and protect and work for Scotland interests do it not and Scotland will 100% have a new independence referendum that will allow Scottish people to decide their own future. Interesting times ahead in all Independence is not dead and if the UK want it off the table then time to start proving the whole Family of nations and equal partnership this UK is suppose to be lol | |||
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" Scottish education is the best in the UK 10 years of SNP government proves it or do people believe every election people vote SNP because of you know independence " Not sure why you are resorting to posting lies again. See my post earlier in the thread about education. It's been a trainwreck under the SNP and we're doing worse than England in the internationally recognised standards (Pisa). | |||
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" Scottish education is the best in the UK 10 years of SNP government proves it or do people believe every election people vote SNP because of you know independence Not sure why you are resorting to posting lies again. See my post earlier in the thread about education. It's been a trainwreck under the SNP and we're doing worse than England in the internationally recognised standards (Pisa)." Ah well the problem you have with that clearly the voters dont think the same way as you they trust the SNP thats why they were voted in for a 3rd term and 10 years of SNP government in Scotland i mean what next are people gonna say the only reason people vote SNP is because of you know independence lol Do the Scottish need to improve in education yes just like anything there is always room for improvement but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free and before anyone moans about education and health care being free in Scotland do any of you that is so against it being free hand over your money to pay for your education or your kids or do you actually hand over your money for prescriptions even though they are free ? | |||
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" but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free " No that definitely isn't the fact. The facts were posted earlier, the PISA scores. Scottish education is being wrecked by the SNP and we're being outperformed by England. | |||
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" but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free No that definitely isn't the fact. The facts were posted earlier, the PISA scores. Scottish education is being wrecked by the SNP and we're being outperformed by England." Again the voters clearly dont agree with you they think the SNP is doing a good job. The anti SNP supporters can shout out everyone just cotes for SNP because of independence as people will vote for them for doing a good job in government and the voters clearly send a message to the branch offices they are not to be trusted to stand up for Scotland. I did notice you cherry picked education out of what i said but nothing else so am curious to know do you agree with everything i said above where you picked out the education part in my post ? | |||
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"It is a fact that under the SNP Scottish educational standards are falling. Your constant refrain of "People have elected the SNP for 10yrs" is also a fact. But they are being found out now, like all parties the well runs dry on new policy ideas.The SNP with 18months now of nothing to do but deliver good well run Govt are in trouble. The party is devoid of talent and without the financial means to run another election campaign .....So the "Freedom " cult is now reduced to wailing in the wind about Brexit talks that we all know they will find distasteful, because if they were to agree that good trade deals and rights had been secured....They would like the UKIP party fail to have a reason to exist." Being found out yet only less a month ago won yet another election in Scotland with a majority of seats yet the media would have you all believe the Tories won the election in Scotland with a mere 13 Scottish seats lol Again you need to get away from this whole idea that the pro indy support is just SNP because its not independence is far and i mean far bigger than any party. It was made clear that no one is asking for an independence referendum this year but when the brexit deal is known and then allow the Scottish people to decide on brexit or for independence seems a fair question considering the Scottish majority voted to remain and we all know how much the unionist side love majorities lol An independence referendum will only go away if the UK government play fair and allow the Scottish government to be involved in brexit talks and to keep full membership of the single market do it not and afraid sadly for the pro union side their will be another independence referendum as no matter what you cannot shout out that you are all for democracy then deny people the right to change their minds on independence that is called dictatorship | |||
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"Do you imagine that if the First minister was offered a seat at the Brexit talks she would accept? She would then be forced to accept that she held some responsibility for the outcome........It will not happen as the EU have indicated they are only dealing with the member state which is the UK. Besides she would be too busy with her grievance agenda to focus on what will be a lesson in tedium and political dogma.... "To answer your question i would say yes or she would sent Mike Russell to talk on the behalf of the Scottish government since he is the Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland's Place in Europe Yes i know the UK is member state but think is nothing is stopping the UK government bringing in the devolved parliaments / Assembly correct ? but the fact is the Tories seem to think they can do the talking for another countries that clearly send a message in the election that we reject the Tories Do you want the Tories doing the brexit talks on Scotland's behalf ? What makes you trust the Tories on brexit ? Do you not want Scotland to be involved in the talks? Not much of an equal partnership and family of nations is it now ? | |||
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"I think you have a massive chip on your shoulder re the Conservative and Labour parties......Labour held a sway in Scotland for a long time and rightly lost it, due to weak and ineffectual leaders going back nearly 20yrs. But the SNP are not a governing party they are a one trick pony..They talk left and act right. Hospital closures and the failure to address council cuts is being seen for what it is, a failure to protect the poorest in our society.......There are no policies to address austerity, they would rather give business rate cuts, cut flight taxes...yes all very right wing policies So rather than blame everyone else take a look at this cabal of malcontents and chancers....But the bell is tolling they are struggling to even appear competent anymore. Roll on the next general election or Holyrood whichever arrives first. Then this parcel of rogues will be swept back to protest part status " Nope no chip on my shoulder am glad we have a SNP goverment because its clear none of the unionist branch office give a shit about Scotland. Now as for council cuts who is it that is in charge of getting rid of teachers and staff ? That would be a council job correct ? Labour got rid of alot of teachers yet people blame SNP oh wait i get it blame the SNP for the cuts those cuts that really are Tory cuts being forced onto Scotlands budget as money is not devolved. | |||
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"The SNP have the ability to raise revenue...They choose not to, they are out of there depth, no idea which way to turn and are just an embarrassment to out country....I do love how you think that the other parties are "branch offices" while the central belt strip of Scotland is the total extent of the SNP world......Yup your sounding more desperate and shrill as time passes and you realise the cult is over....Maybe you could hold all hold hands and chant?.... "Ah the old raise tax line... so how would you stop people that have money moving down south to avoid paying more tax ? That is a loophole that needs closed They are branch offices dont believe me then have a look up on the Electoral Commission and you will NOT find the Scottish Labour party or the Scottish Tories or Scottish Lib Dim's why because none of them are actually registered as a party in Scotland its not hard to work out if they aint registered then they are a mere branch office to the UK party correct ? Once again lying to the people. If the so called Scottish Labour party were autonomous as the claim then why oh why did they abstain on not keeping the single market as Kezia the so called leader told everyone in Holyrood she will support the SNP on keeping the single market yet in Westminster the Scottish Labour mp's abstained on the issue of the single market thats what i call utter bullshit. Now if they were really autonomous as they claim then surely they would vote against the whip and do everything they can to keep the single market that they swore they would support the SNP on More of that Bain Principle coming into effect from the Scottish Labour branch lol | |||
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" but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free No that definitely isn't the fact. The facts were posted earlier, the PISA scores. Scottish education is being wrecked by the SNP and we're being outperformed by England. Again the voters clearly dont agree with you they think the SNP is doing a good job. The anti SNP supporters can shout out everyone just cotes for SNP because of independence as people will vote for them for doing a good job in government and the voters clearly send a message to the branch offices they are not to be trusted to stand up for Scotland. I did notice you cherry picked education out of what i said but nothing else so am curious to know do you agree with everything i said above where you picked out the education part in my post ? " I cherrypicked education as you try to avoid responding to specific points in the past so by posting one it would be difficult to stray from the topic. It was also something I'd posted about above. You've basically proven the point again though by failing to address it instead going on about people voting SNP (just over 1/3 of the electorate). Not sure why you somehow think some of the population voting SNP = Scotland has the best education system in the UK. Even a child wouldn't use that logic. | |||
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"Anyone took a look at the voting records in Holyrood on the public sector pay cap? This really should show you all how much you cannot trust Scottish Labour bunch of lying bastards willing to lie to the public must not be too bright to know we the public can keep an eye on how each MSP votes lol The Lab/SNP motion to scrap Pay Cap was passed on 10/5/2017. Now what is very insteresting is Anas Sarwar said the SNP voted against the motions strange as you will be able to look at the record of Nicola's vote and you with see Nicola voted FOR in both motions " This is going to sound pretty ironic given your comments about people lying to the public and relying on them not being bright but........you've clearly misunderstood this completely. I'm assuming you read this on a pro-indy site rather than checking yourself? Anwar put forward a motion to scrap the NHS pay cap, Shona Robertson (Health Secretary) then put forward an amendment that completely removed this point and replaced it with waffle about the pay review body, working in partnership with the NHS etc. When it came to the vote Anwar's original motion to remove the pay cap (motion no S5M-05479) wasn't voted on, instead the SNP used their majority to vote for Shona Robertson's amendment (motion no S5M-05479.3) which removed the line about the Scottish parliament 'believing' the pay cap should be scrapped. So I'm afraid you're completely wrong and have been hoodwinked by whoever told you this information. It's always best to get it direct from source, in this case the Scottish parliament website. http://www.parliament.scot/index.aspx Always happy to help | |||
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"Are you referring to the Labour motion to lift the NHS (not public sector) pay cap that the Tories and the SNP jointly voted aagainst on 10 May? https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/international-nurses-day-marked-row-over-pay-cap You wouldn't be making things up now would you?" Correct date Now if you look up the record of votes you will be able to see Nicola did vote FOR both motions and like i said Kezia voted against both motions but strange how no one wants to pick up on the fact Nicola voted for Sarwars motion and Kezia voted against Sarwars motion lol | |||
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" but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free No that definitely isn't the fact. The facts were posted earlier, the PISA scores. Scottish education is being wrecked by the SNP and we're being outperformed by England. Again the voters clearly dont agree with you they think the SNP is doing a good job. The anti SNP supporters can shout out everyone just cotes for SNP because of independence as people will vote for them for doing a good job in government and the voters clearly send a message to the branch offices they are not to be trusted to stand up for Scotland. I did notice you cherry picked education out of what i said but nothing else so am curious to know do you agree with everything i said above where you picked out the education part in my post ? I cherrypicked education as you try to avoid responding to specific points in the past so by posting one it would be difficult to stray from the topic. It was also something I'd posted about above. You've basically proven the point again though by failing to address it instead going on about people voting SNP (just over 1/3 of the electorate). Not sure why you somehow think some of the population voting SNP = Scotland has the best education system in the UK. Even a child wouldn't use that logic." I love debating with you but noticed again so do you agree with what i said above in that post you cherry picked education | |||
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"Stop people leaving this Utopia that Nicola rules over ?.....Surely your just talking us down, are you saying were not attractive enough ?......I am confused you seem to think all that is needed to be "Fighting for Scotland" is a HQ in Scotland....Like RBS ?... "Am curious to know to all those that say SNP should raise tax ok then tell me will you then force people to stay in Scotland ? With the loophole if tax is raised whats stopping someone with money thinking fuck that im moving south to avoid paying more tax ? Genuine question how would you stop them ? | |||
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" but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free No that definitely isn't the fact. The facts were posted earlier, the PISA scores. Scottish education is being wrecked by the SNP and we're being outperformed by England. Again the voters clearly dont agree with you they think the SNP is doing a good job. The anti SNP supporters can shout out everyone just cotes for SNP because of independence as people will vote for them for doing a good job in government and the voters clearly send a message to the branch offices they are not to be trusted to stand up for Scotland. I did notice you cherry picked education out of what i said but nothing else so am curious to know do you agree with everything i said above where you picked out the education part in my post ? I cherrypicked education as you try to avoid responding to specific points in the past so by posting one it would be difficult to stray from the topic. It was also something I'd posted about above. You've basically proven the point again though by failing to address it instead going on about people voting SNP (just over 1/3 of the electorate). Not sure why you somehow think some of the population voting SNP = Scotland has the best education system in the UK. Even a child wouldn't use that logic. I love debating with you but noticed again so do you agree with what i said above in that post you cherry picked education" I don't see you 'debating' with them. They're on a different level from you in this discussion. I'd throw in the towel if I were you. | |||
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" but fact remain Scotland has the best education system in the UK and is also free No that definitely isn't the fact. The facts were posted earlier, the PISA scores. Scottish education is being wrecked by the SNP and we're being outperformed by England. Again the voters clearly dont agree with you they think the SNP is doing a good job. The anti SNP supporters can shout out everyone just cotes for SNP because of independence as people will vote for them for doing a good job in government and the voters clearly send a message to the branch offices they are not to be trusted to stand up for Scotland. I did notice you cherry picked education out of what i said but nothing else so am curious to know do you agree with everything i said above where you picked out the education part in my post ? I cherrypicked education as you try to avoid responding to specific points in the past so by posting one it would be difficult to stray from the topic. It was also something I'd posted about above. You've basically proven the point again though by failing to address it instead going on about people voting SNP (just over 1/3 of the electorate). Not sure why you somehow think some of the population voting SNP = Scotland has the best education system in the UK. Even a child wouldn't use that logic. I love debating with you but noticed again so do you agree with what i said above in that post you cherry picked education I don't see you 'debating' with them. They're on a different level from you in this discussion. I'd throw in the towel if I were you." Thats your opinion So out of interest what is it you think am not right about ? | |||
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"Are you referring to the Labour motion to lift the NHS (not public sector) pay cap that the Tories and the SNP jointly voted aagainst on 10 May? https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/international-nurses-day-marked-row-over-pay-cap You wouldn't be making things up now would you? Correct date Now if you look up the record of votes you will be able to see Nicola did vote FOR both motions and like i said Kezia voted against both motions but strange how no one wants to pick up on the fact Nicola voted for Sarwars motion and Kezia voted against Sarwars motion lol " Why do you keep lying again and again on here when you know people can easily check the facts? Go and look at Dugdale's voting record on the Scottish parliament website and you'll find what you've typed above is nonsense. Stop believing everything you read on pro-indy sites and check the facts for yourself. | |||
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"Are you referring to the Labour motion to lift the NHS (not public sector) pay cap that the Tories and the SNP jointly voted aagainst on 10 May? https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/international-nurses-day-marked-row-over-pay-cap You wouldn't be making things up now would you? Correct date Now if you look up the record of votes you will be able to see Nicola did vote FOR both motions and like i said Kezia voted against both motions but strange how no one wants to pick up on the fact Nicola voted for Sarwars motion and Kezia voted against Sarwars motion lol Why do you keep lying again and again on here when you know people can easily check the facts? Go and look at Dugdale's voting record on the Scottish parliament website and you'll find what you've typed above is nonsense. Stop believing everything you read on pro-indy sites and check the facts for yourself." No am not lying 10/5/17 you will clearly see Kezia Dugdale voted against both Labour ( Sarwar) and SNP (Robison) motions Also Nicola Sturgeon voted For both SNP (Robison) and Labour (Sarwar) motions on the 10/5/17 So in all Kezia voted against scrapping it and this is why Labour in Scotland cannot be trusted they are a bunch of right wing Red Tories Did you not catch the Sky News interview where Kezia said for people in the Highlands and borders to go vote Tory to keep SNP out Scottish Labour cant see past their pure hatred of the SNP and they wonder why they are finishing 3rd allowing the Tories are free ride | |||
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"Now hopefully the pro union branch offices will get on with their day job instead of talking about Independence non stop. Also will be very interesting to hear what Ruth Davidson and her wee 13 Scottish Tory mp's will do to project Scotland's place in the single market remember Ruth Davidson was all for staying in the EU and single market at the expense of freedom of movement then u-turned meaning she got telt off her bosses to do as she is told. Also lets remember Ruth Davidson stood in Holyrood asking the Scottish government what they will do to protect Scotland's place in the single market. So either Ruth and her we 13 mp's will protect Scotland and stand up for Scotland or will the run and hide and get telt from their bosses in Westminster what stance to take. Interesting times. Like i said what is so wrong about letting the Scottish people a right to decide on the final brexit deal or independence considering Scotland's majority rejected brexit and the Tories. Its time they proved what they say that this is a family of nations and equal partnership in the UK or the UK will break up " Unlikely Ruth and her lickspittle buddies will stand up for Scotland against Westminster rule | |||
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"Are you referring to the Labour motion to lift the NHS (not public sector) pay cap that the Tories and the SNP jointly voted aagainst on 10 May? https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/international-nurses-day-marked-row-over-pay-cap You wouldn't be making things up now would you? Correct date Now if you look up the record of votes you will be able to see Nicola did vote FOR both motions and like i said Kezia voted against both motions but strange how no one wants to pick up on the fact Nicola voted for Sarwars motion and Kezia voted against Sarwars motion lol Why do you keep lying again and again on here when you know people can easily check the facts? Go and look at Dugdale's voting record on the Scottish parliament website and you'll find what you've typed above is nonsense. Stop believing everything you read on pro-indy sites and check the facts for yourself. No am not lying 10/5/17 you will clearly see Kezia Dugdale voted against both Labour ( Sarwar) and SNP (Robison) motions Also Nicola Sturgeon voted For both SNP (Robison) and Labour (Sarwar) motions on the 10/5/17 So in all Kezia voted against scrapping it and this is why Labour in Scotland cannot be trusted they are a bunch of right wing Red Tories Did you not catch the Sky News interview where Kezia said for people in the Highlands and borders to go vote Tory to keep SNP out Scottish Labour cant see past their pure hatred of the SNP and they wonder why they are finishing 3rd allowing the Tories are free ride" I'm afraid it's very easy to prove you're lying. I've just taken a screenshot of the voting record for Dugdale https://i.gyazo.com/fe610577ebbc982b52368dbc25127467.png And here's a link to the page itself http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/28925.aspx?m=1848 It's embarrassing that you're reduced to this. | |||
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"I hate doing this but here is Anas twitter feed go down to William Brown post where is clearly shows against https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/880326687724122112" Lol, so someone has gone to the trouble to photoshop a fake pic and post it on a twitter feed. That's pretty sad. That's why I've posted the link to the official Scottish parliament site which gives the real results, not the fake ones. | |||
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"I hate doing this but here is Anas twitter feed go down to William Brown post where is clearly shows against https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/880326687724122112" A twitter feed? Seriously
Check the post above for the genuine result of the vote.
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao " Scottish people had there vote, remain won. Why keep having vote after vote till leave wins? What's the point of democracy? Nicola Sturgeon should resign as she failed, every day the backing for "independence" falls. Personally I think she should be tried for treason, there is enough grounds for it. She is also a one trick pony. As for brexit, when the Scots voted they knew, if brexit happens they wouldn't get a second vote. Scotland has been ruled by England for many years, it won't change for many more. As for letting all devolved governments have a say at brexit talks, well they shouldn't. Westminster is the main power and if it comes to hard brexit, so be it. I voted for remain but accept brexit is happening, I don't moan about it non stop like a little child, that doesn't get its own way. | |||
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao Scottish people had there vote, remain won. Why keep having vote after vote till leave wins? What's the point of democracy? Nicola Sturgeon should resign as she failed, every day the backing for "independence" falls. Personally I think she should be tried for treason, there is enough grounds for it. She is also a one trick pony. As for brexit, when the Scots voted they knew, if brexit happens they wouldn't get a second vote. Scotland has been ruled by England for many years, it won't change for many more. As for letting all devolved governments have a say at brexit talks, well they shouldn't. Westminster is the main power and if it comes to hard brexit, so be it. I voted for remain but accept brexit is happening, I don't moan about it non stop like a little child, that doesn't get its own way." why not visit Scotland and find out the true opinion rather than fantasize | |||
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao Scottish people had there vote, remain won. Why keep having vote after vote till leave wins? What's the point of democracy? Nicola Sturgeon should resign as she failed, every day the backing for "independence" falls. Personally I think she should be tried for treason, there is enough grounds for it. She is also a one trick pony. As for brexit, when the Scots voted they knew, if brexit happens they wouldn't get a second vote. Scotland has been ruled by England for many years, it won't change for many more. As for letting all devolved governments have a say at brexit talks, well they shouldn't. Westminster is the main power and if it comes to hard brexit, so be it. I voted for remain but accept brexit is happening, I don't moan about it non stop like a little child, that doesn't get its own way. why not visit Scotland and find out the true opinion rather than fantasize " Already have a fair few times in past months. Opinions aren't votes, if all Scottish people wanted to leave the UK, you would be, bad sadly for you it didn't turn out that way. In your fantasy, Scotland leaves UK and get accepted into the EU right away, everyone lives happy ever after. Reality is, you'll leave the UK and EU, have to reapply to be a member of EU. To which is a waiting list, have to meet certain targets. Even so, Scotland wouldn't join as Spain will veto every single time. Mainly as they have independence issues of there own and won't appear weak. Spain isn't the only country that will veto. Wake.up.from.your.dreams. | |||
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao Scottish people had there vote, remain won. Why keep having vote after vote till leave wins? What's the point of democracy? Nicola Sturgeon should resign as she failed, every day the backing for "independence" falls. Personally I think she should be tried for treason, there is enough grounds for it. She is also a one trick pony. As for brexit, when the Scots voted they knew, if brexit happens they wouldn't get a second vote. Scotland has been ruled by England for many years, it won't change for many more. As for letting all devolved governments have a say at brexit talks, well they shouldn't. Westminster is the main power and if it comes to hard brexit, so be it. I voted for remain but accept brexit is happening, I don't moan about it non stop like a little child, that doesn't get its own way. why not visit Scotland and find out the true opinion rather than fantasize Already have a fair few times in past months. Opinions aren't votes, if all Scottish people wanted to leave the UK, you would be, bad sadly for you it didn't turn out that way. In your fantasy, Scotland leaves UK and get accepted into the EU right away, everyone lives happy ever after. Reality is, you'll leave the UK and EU, have to reapply to be a member of EU. To which is a waiting list, have to meet certain targets. Even so, Scotland wouldn't join as Spain will veto every single time. Mainly as they have independence issues of there own and won't appear weak. Spain isn't the only country that will veto. Wake.up.from.your.dreams. " Oh god not the Spain veto shite again look it was debunked there is no Spain veto on an indpendent Scotland being in the EU the veto is on Gibralter | |||
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"I think your above reply is why we find it difficult to point out the flaws in your thinking.... "What one the fact people are fine to deny Scottish voters a right to decide on brexit remember Scotland was told the Uk is a family of nations and to lead the Uk Or is it the Spain veto myth ? That myth went quiet from unionists as soon as they found out its not a veto on an independent Scotland but it is a veto on Gibralter lol | |||
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"The media and the unionist parties dont get it they wont listen and peddle out pish hoping the public will buy into the lies The Scottish government are NOT asking for another independence referendum right now but when the brexit deal is known and allow the Scottish people to decide. Also if this is an equal partnership in the UK union and family of nations then Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland should ALL be in the brexit talks all this is doing is showing up that this is a fucked up UK union where Scotland voters rejected brexit and rejected the Tories. Imagine trying to ask party that won two elections on a manifesto policy and now have a triple lock mandate to take their policy off the table lmao Whats the point in talking about something that will not be happening for at least 2 years. I for one am sick of hearing about Indyref2 and Brexit lets just see what happens then talk about it." To be fair the only ones talking about it are the press and those opposed to it - as you say it's not even a reality yet but it's all they've got. It will happen. After the Brexit carnage. | |||
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"Brexit wont happen." I agree. Said so since day 1. | |||
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"I hate doing this but here is Anas twitter feed go down to William Brown post where is clearly shows against https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/880326687724122112 Lol, so someone has gone to the trouble to photoshop a fake pic and post it on a twitter feed. That's pretty sad. That's why I've posted the link to the official Scottish parliament site which gives the real results, not the fake ones. " Bumpity bump ?? | |||
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"So what do we gain from being out with the UK......Please say Oh and keep the flag waving self determination guff for the less enlightened "What do we gain ? How about the right to self govern and for the Scottish people to vote for a party to govern Scotland when did you see Scotland vote for the Tories ? Or how about this any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland. Why would you choose to want to give money that has been raised in Scotland down to Westminster for the Tories to give Scotland a set budget to work with then moan about the Scottish government not spending enough but seem happy for them to keep mitigating nasty polices from the Tories Can you imagine it Scotland will be Tory free and will not have to face Tory cuts and the big one will be equal partners and neighbours with England. Genuine question give me your reasons why you think Scotland is an equal partner in this UK union ? | |||
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"We are more than equal partners...we send more MPs than our population would entitle us to......We get more money spent per hard than both England and Wales...We benefit from open borders with our largest trading nation. We also have a lender of last resort, The defence industry spends billions and supplies jobs across Scotland. We have close cultural ties with the other nations, the arts, theatre, the BBC, most of us have relatives in other parts of the Uk as well. Our bonds are deeper than the petty bigotry that you display...The Tories who you despise had 3/4 of a million votes only a few weeks ago...So Scots who voted them are what ? " Am sorry did you honestly just say am a bigot for believing that Scotland should be independent ? That is not on 59 Scottish mp's to Westminster you think is equal to the 600 + English Mp's ? Again needs pointing out any money raised in Scotland gets send to Westminster where the Tories are the government same Tories that got rejected in Scotland and won a mere 13 Scottish seats thats not a majority of Scottish seats therefore they did not win the election in Scotland yet they will get money that is raised in Scotland to give Scotland some yes some of it back in a set budget that is being cut every year and yet people are happy to moan about the Scottish government not spending emough but seem happy for the Scottish government to keep on mitigating Tory polices is that not wasting money that could go on better things that having to mitigate the Tory cuts ? A defence trident Billions wasting on nuclear weapons that wont ever keep you safe many attacks as the UK sadly had yet those nuclear weapons seem to be doing some job at keeping us safe eh The BBC ? really the BBC that want to take £147 off people to watch them tell you lies lmao Yes i have English family and love to bits and guess what after Scotland becomes independent i will still love them to bits nothing changes. Now that the question you asked the Scots that voted them are what ? The answer in my opinion they are sadly being hoodwinked to think those Scottish Tory mp's are going to stick up for Scotland Now the reason i say that is David Mundell is on record saying any deal with the DUP for the 1billion extra money for N.Ireland that Scotland would also get extra money few days later and once again Mundell put party before country and is happy with the DUP deal and you can clearly tell he didnt fight for Scotland to get extra money. Also the vote on the single market took place a few nights ago and remember Ruth was all for the single market and asked what the Scottish government would do to protect the single market for Scotland and the UK and what did the Scottish Tories do they voted against the single market pretty much telling every Scottish person they dont care its party before country And before i hear its the same with the SNP no no you just saw Nicola say she wont press on with the legislation on the section 30 order right now even though there was no plans to hold a referendum right now but when the brexit deal was known | |||
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"So you just rubbish the job security offered to thousands of Scots to make a point. My understanding is that the next MOD budget is yet to be set so no contracts can be offered for tender. It would be a chance for St Nicola to win over some of us if she were to tell us how many ships she would build for the Scottish navy. Show us that she actually has a plan. I know as do you that we would have next to no ships and certainly no new frigates would ever be built...A great resource would wither and die on the Clyde....But hey we can wave our flags and .......well thats all actually "Hold on a minute is that a promise made back in 2014 from Better Together that 13 frigates will be build on the Clyde correct ? Why is that being brushed aside and not challenged ? Remember this promise from Better Together that if Scotland votes no Ship Yards will be safe in the UK ? Tell me which party in government had to go out and find a buyer to make sure no jobs were lost in the Ship Yards ? The answer would be the SNP found a buyer so if the SNP didnt do that then jobs in the Ship Yards would have been lost and it wouldnt be safe in the UK | |||
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"Well why does Nicola not tell us she will order 13 frigates after independence , safe guard thousands of jobs not a small yard , but two massive yards with hundreds of suppliers..Thank of the goodwill that she could generate it would cost a few pounds/euros/scots sponduliks.....Who knows she may even have an idea of how we could enlist some sailors as well to crew them "You are skipping over the fact it was Better Together camp that promised 13 frigates will be build on the Clyde with a no vote in 2014 then when the vote came in it was changed to 8 now its 3 frigates Can i ask and be honest are you not angry at the fact they are breaking their promise to build 13 frigates on the Clyde now its only 3 that make you angry considering you voted no ? All you doing it is passing the buck by asking what will Nicola do in an independent Scotland well at this very moment Scotland is not independent so again why not ask why the promise from the Better Together camp to build 13 frigates is kept ? | |||
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"Your sense of grievance is truly remarkable...You must be a fully paid up member of the SNP. So the contracts are for three frigates then further ships to follow...It takes years to build these vessels so why whine when the order book is filled for six years ahead... Political expedience? almost certainly, Luckily it wont be needed the SNP are a busted flush, credibility draining away week after week... "You didnt answer my question am very curious to hear from a no voter and be honest are you not angry that 13 frigates will not be build on the Clyde ? The contract is for 3 to be build and to discuss a further 5 after 2020 know if my math is correct that is only a possible 8 that will maybe be build but strange the promise was 13 frigates correct ? | |||
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"BAE Systems has been awarded a contract by the Ministry of Defence worth £3.7bn to manufacture the first three of the eight Type 26 Frigate fleet. Eight Type 23 Frigates are to be built, the contract for the second batch will be negotiated in the early 2020s. You are predicting now that this initial batch order to back claims that the order has been cut. That is incorrect. Ordering in batches is common for projects of this size around the world and was last seen with the Royal Navy for the Type 45 Destroyers and recent Offshore Patrol Vessels. The Type 45s first batch order was for three vessels. Steel is to be cut on the first ship in Glasgow in the coming weeks. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-type-26-frigate-not-cut-three-ships/ " I got one simply question for you back in 2014 in the Scottish referendum how many type 26 frigates did Better Together camp say will be build on the Clyde ? Was it 13 ? 8 ? or 3 ? Be honest now Back in 2014 Scottish Labour pro unionist branch office that joined to form Better Together put out a leaflet saying and i quote '' Within the UK Govan and Scotstoun WILL get the order for 13 Type 26 Frigates from the Royal Navy'' Am i lying about that leaflet from Scottish Labour ? So why is it ok to lie to the Scottish public eh ? Where is the 13 that was promised ? | |||
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"Maybe because Labour didn't win in Scotland local elections to make it happen and why didn't the snp didn't do it" You really going to say that is an excuse to break a promise of building 13 frigates on the Clyde wow just wow How about this all three Tory , Labour , Lib Dem formed Better Together and the leaflet was send out to Scottish people to say 13 Frigates will be build if people vote no then it changed to 8 now its 3 and thats ok just to accept that without challenge Now wonder the UK is fucked. Am a pro indy supporter i believe Scotland , Wales , England and N.Ireland should all be independent and here i am a pro indy supporter asking questions why the promise of 13 frigates being build on the Clyde from Better Together should be kept yet no voters dont seem to care about that promise being broke go figure eh | |||
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"Am i lying about that leaflet from Scottish Labour ? Are you? Do you have the leaflet to prove yourself? Heres a heads up for you, better together are not in government, and may I add, neither are Labour. One thing we do know is that an independent Scotland would not be building any warships for the Royal Navy. You would prefer no frigates to whatever number they eventually build. Typical nat grievance mongering. In reality, you have nothing to complain about yet you complain about nothing. ?? How many frigates would an independent Scotland build? " Ah right so thats the game answer a question with a question lol Type Scottish Labour frigate into google then go to images and you will find it there Yes i know that but here is think the three parties that formed Better Together Labour , Tory , Lib Dem campaigned in 2014 and told people if they were to vote no then 13 frigates will be build on the Clyde correct ? So because Labour arent in government thats ok then to break the promise of 13 frigates to be build on the Clyde you try telling people that was sold that lie then You just asked me what i prefer i will answer that i prefer the promise to build 13 frigates were to be kept Do you not care that 13 frigates were promised to be build on the Clyde ? my opinion the way it appears its like pro unionists do not give a fuck that they were lied to you know it was 13 frigates why the fuck would you not want to challenge that and tell them to keep to the promise ? Lmao this shit is unbelievable you are asking how many would an independent Scotland build but do not care that you were promised 13 were to be build if Scotland voted no lol I see that all over social media unionists seem to not care how many broken promises from the no camp you wont even challenge the fact they are outright lies that they were safe in the UK Lets try this can anyone that voted no in 2014 tell me what promises from the Better Together have been kept here is a list to help just say yes or no next to them 1. NHS - 2. EU 3 Shipyards - 4. Steel works- 5 HMRC - 6. Home Rule for Scotland - Anyone willing to be bold and say yes to any of those promises have been kept since 2014 ? | |||
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"So what do we gain from being out with the UK......Please say Oh and keep the flag waving self determination guff for the less enlightened "'If' the situation had been reversed. So The UK didn't exist. Scotland is indy and asked to join the UK now, given the history in how things have panned out over the years, especially the past 3 decades; would you want to ditch self determination to join this glorious United Kindgdom and 'family' of Nations? And please, keep the anti salmond/ Sturgeon/ too wee too poor/ we'd never make it/ you'd be nothing without oil guff for the less enlightened.  | |||
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" Pretty sure I recall that UK ships couldn't be built by a 'foreign' Scotland. Korea though...well, that's dinky doo. " You recollection is false. It's complex warships that are made here, fleet solid supply ships can be made abroad. These tankers and supply ships, when built, will then be customised to Navy standards in UK yards. The distinction between the two must be made. You either knew that and are deliberately misleading or you are simply ignorant. Which is it? | |||
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"BAE Systems has been awarded a contract by the Ministry of Defence worth £3.7bn to manufacture the first three of the eight Type 26 Frigate fleet. Eight Type 23 Frigates are to be built, the contract for the second batch will be negotiated in the early 2020s. You are predicting now that this initial batch order to back claims that the order has been cut. That is incorrect. Ordering in batches is common for projects of this size around the world and was last seen with the Royal Navy for the Type 45 Destroyers and recent Offshore Patrol Vessels. The Type 45s first batch order was for three vessels. Steel is to be cut on the first ship in Glasgow in the coming weeks. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-type-26-frigate-not-cut-three-ships/ I got one simply question for you back in 2014 in the Scottish referendum how many type 26 frigates did Better Together camp say will be build on the Clyde ? Was it 13 ? 8 ? or 3 ? Be honest now Back in 2014 Scottish Labour pro unionist branch office that joined to form Better Together put out a leaflet saying and i quote '' Within the UK Govan and Scotstoun WILL get the order for 13 Type 26 Frigates from the Royal Navy'' Am i lying about that leaflet from Scottish Labour ? So why is it ok to lie to the Scottish public eh ? Where is the 13 that was promised ? The number of ships has nothing to do with broken Indy promises. As time went by and the RN changed the spec ( which is common in defence contracts ) the price rose. As the defence budget is cut in real terms for all the armed services the number of ships was reduced and that is common as well. I serve on a ship built on the Mersey . The initial tender was for five vessels but only three were built. This is not a unionist plot it is cold hard affordability. " | |||
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"Stop people leaving this Utopia that Nicola rules over ?.....Surely your just talking us down, are you saying were not attractive enough ?......I am confused you seem to think all that is needed to be "Fighting for Scotland" is a HQ in Scotland....Like RBS ?...
Am curious to know to all those that say SNP should raise tax ok then tell me will you then force people to stay in Scotland ? With the loophole if tax is raised whats stopping someone with money thinking fuck that im moving south to avoid paying more tax ? Genuine question how would you stop them ?
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"Yes it is, as the voters of Barrow and Portsmouth will make their thoughts on the matter be heard, by asking questions like, why are you investing in a foreign country when the warships could be built here? Who said that "only" 8 are to be built? As far as I,m aware, 8 have been confirmed. More will, more than likely follow. And you forgot about the 5 OPV,s and the 5 type 31,s that are coming to the Clyde. Again, 8 + 5 + 5 =? How many would have been built if we were independent? " According to Scotland on Sunday (not the most Nat friendly journal) the figure is now only 3 type 26 confirmed. Down from 13, then to 8, with the further 5 (to bring us back to 8) not being discussed or negotiated until the early '20s (so round about the time that there's talk - and it's only talk - of another Indyref). That's pretty handy eh? | |||
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"So still no answer from the people that want SNP to raise tax but have no clue on how you would stop people that are well off moving south so they are not paying more tax than the rest of the UK That is loophole correct so question is how would stop people moving to pay less tax ? You going to force them " That's also a question you must ask yourself if independent, we all know that current spend in an independent Scotland would be unaffordable without Barnett. So what would you do, raise taxes or slash services, or a combination of both? You're actually undermining your own position by using that argument. I doubt very much that there would be a mass exodus if income tax was raised a penny. However if independent, to fill the black hole of a £15bn deficit would mean significantly higher taxes that would trigger the very thing you seem to be concerned about. We would suffer austerity beyond George Osbornes wet dreams, here the FM admitting as much. https://youtu.be/eVynXGj4eyA | |||
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"So still no answer from the people that want SNP to raise tax but have no clue on how you would stop people that are well off moving south so they are not paying more tax than the rest of the UK That is loophole correct so question is how would stop people moving to pay less tax ? You going to force them That's also a question you must ask yourself if independent, we all know that current spend in an independent Scotland would be unaffordable without Barnett. So what would you do, raise taxes or slash services, or a combination of both? You're actually undermining your own position by using that argument. I doubt very much that there would be a mass exodus if income tax was raised a penny. However if independent, to fill the black hole of a £15bn deficit would mean significantly higher taxes that would trigger the very thing you seem to be concerned about. We would suffer austerity beyond George Osbornes wet dreams, here the FM admitting as much. https://youtu.be/eVynXGj4eyA" So no answer then ? Like i said am asking a question to those that want the SNP to raise tax but cannot seem to answer how they will stop people leaving to avoid paying more tax thank you for proving the point. Also once again i see this pish come up again this 15 billion deficit you go on about is under the UK as Scotland is not independent and seen as money is not devolved this your Westminster governments fucking up and mismanaging the money also borrowing more and more and adding to the trillions in debt that UK is and thats now something to be very proud of ? But seems for some they would rather live under a UK government that Scotland rejected and that UK government have missed every target they set in 7 years and added to the UK debt great eh to be part of this so called UK lol | |||
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"...independence, transcends all. " So, it would seem, does hanging on to the coat-tails of the Union. | |||
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"Just ignore it in the hope that it will go away, stuck your fingers in you ears and shout la la la! We have an ongoing deficit, no serious politician denies this. You talk about Westminster mismanagement, yet what would you do to tackle this deficit? What changes would be made? This is one question that dwarfs every other. A £15bn deficit, think about that. You don't even accept its existence, or for you? What's your position on that? This delusion is what makes you look daft in the eyes of many. The Scottish governments own figures confirm it. Are you seriously telling us the Scottish government has no idea of how much they spend and how much they UK government spends on our behalf. The GERS figures were the basis of the economic argument in the white paper that you voted for, now when they look bad, you deny them. Typical inconsistent nats, but I can't expect any thing else, after all, independence, transcends all. And that includes honesty. " No no lets just keep to the UK issue as Scotland is not independent so lets deal with the UK as it is right now So as i was saying money is not devolved that is reversed to Westminster correct ? So that is Westminster governments that are fucking up the money correct By law the Scottish government have to go with those GERS figures also you heard it from Kevin Hague himself say the GERS figures does NOT show you what and independent Scotland would look like but it does show you what Scotland looks like under the UK P.S Who set up the GERS ? Would that have been the Tories ? | |||
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"...independence, transcends all. So, it would seem, does hanging on to the coat-tails of the Union." Pooling and sharing, that's the benefit of staying in the UK. | |||
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"...independence, transcends all. So, it would seem, does hanging on to the coat-tails of the Union. Pooling and sharing, that's the benefit of staying in the UK. " Lmao some joke you told there lol Pooling and sharing. Ok so this 1 billion bribe to N.Ireland to keep the Tories into power where is the extra money to Scotland ? Pooling and sharing my arse. You cant deny David Mundell said if there was a deal with the DUP to give N.Ireland extra money that Scotland would get extra money too and what happened Mundell lied to the country he is suppose to stand up for Never trust Tory | |||
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"The snp have been in power over ten years now and every year the GERS figures have changed their methodology and have been refined to reflect the changes in respect to revenue and expenditure due to the changes in devolved powers. Check out the Cuthberts criticisms and their acceptance that they have now been addressed. I see your paranoia got the better if you when you say the tories introduced them, that was 25 years ago. It may have escaped your notice but in that time we have had a Scottish Parliament, that's a bit of a game changer, is it not? We are no longer under the whim of a Scottish Secretary. We now have a devolved parliament that supposedly looks after our affairs. The fact you don't acknowledge that shows a lack of understanding of politics in Scotland and the significant impact that this parliament has had in our lives. So what would change in an independent Scotland? How could we maintain our current services and how would we pay for them? It's a simple question, if you can't answer that, is there any wonder that people will not buy what your selling. No doubt Trident will be mentioned, but that's nowhere near enough. It will cost £100bn over 40 years, that's £2.5bn per year to the UK, how much would Scotlands share be? At 8.9% of the population our share would be 0.225bn per year. Youve still got over £14.5bn to go. ? Good luck. ?? " Good to see you admit it was the Tories that set up GERS now can you tell us why they set up GERS ? Yes i know there is now a Scottish Parliament where just this year in a supreme court case that the UK government had pretty much showed everyone that the Scotland Act is a piece of shite some United Kingdom this is suppose to be where a devolved countries government is told they cant be there in the brexit talks and even that the Tories think they cant tell 2 countries that rejected brexit they are coming out whether they like it or not there is something you call that oh yes dicatorship Yup we have a devolved parliament but thing is do we have full control over welfare over money etc ? The fact is sad you would rather had the money raised in Scotland to the Tories says it all Also the Scottish government do look after the people living in Scotland which government was it that mitigated the bedroom tax again ? Yeah but some people are more than happy for the Scottish government to keep mitigating Tory polices then moan that the SNP are not spending enough strange your happy though to waste money on mitigating the Tory polices There you go again asking about an independent Scotland lets keep to UK issue as there is no independent Scotland right now and no talk of one until a brexit deal is known | |||
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"Never trust a tory you say, well you just did! I know how Barnett works, it didn't apply in this case. Of course this "grubby" deal was criticised by the snp, and what exactly do they want? Give us a share of this "grubby" deal. ?? I don't trust any of them, they all gild the lily, and that includes the snp. Remember their predictions for oil revenue, well they're just short of £8212m. And thats who you trust? ?? " Where did i say i trusted that dickhead Mundell ? All i said is he is the one telling people any deal with the DUP then Scotland would get extra money so that what a fucking lie i knew that dickhead would put party before county all Tories do but its sad that people believe the Tories Pooling and sharing eh ? So a bribe to keep the Tories in powerand no extra money coming to Scotland just shows you this is not an equal partnership in the UK | |||
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"And I,ll keep on asking about independence if it's OK with you. I want to know how an independent Scotland would be able to maintain the services we currently enjoy and how we would pay for them. This is your pitch and you are doing a terrible job of selling it. I,m not here to defend the tories, so why your constantly asking me to do so is a mystery. What I will do is contradict any propaganda and dishonesty that's posted here. I had a chuckle at your Brexit comment, the UK is the member state, not Scotland. In this matter the devolved parliaments have no say. They should be informed yes but not directly involved. And would you really want a devolved government involved in negotiations when that devolved government wishes to break up that very same state? " Yup there you go you said about brexit and the devolved parliaments have no say. Where is this family of nations and equal partnership i keeping hearing about ? Nothing stopping the Tories from bringing in the devolved parliaments/ assemblies is there to the talks ? Like i said the Tories think they can speak for Scotland funny that as they didnt win the election here in Scotland they were rejected. Also a latest poll said 61% of people across the UK think the Scottish Government should have a formal role in brexit talks Simple answer we wont give the Tories any money that is raised in Scotland that will stay in Scotland also take back full control of oil in Scottish waters | |||
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"The family of nations are represented in the UK parliament where UK issues are debated and legislation introduced. Where is the devolved parliament for the people of England? There isnt one. Again, the member state is the UK, not England, Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales, its a UK issue therefore the UK government has the right do negotiate on all our behalves. Thats a bold statement on oil, are you suggesting that Scotland nationalises the oil industry? Im sure BP and Shell and numerous other companies that have invested millions of pounds will be delighted with that news. When you take full control, will that include decommissioning costs? Projections have shown that decommissioning will cost as much as any revenues raised. I,d keep quiet on that one if I were you. Got a link to that poll? Id love to have a closer look at it." Ah right would that be the UK parliament that shot down every amendment from the Scottish mp's on brexit ? Is that not upto the people of England to fight for a devolved parliament of their own? which i would be all for Yes duh i know the UK is member state but as i asked you there is fuck all stopping the Tories from bring in the other countries devolved governments into the brexit talks ? Thats interesting you want the Tories doing the talking on behalf of Scotland when they were rejected in Scotland If Scotland were to become independent then any money raised in Scotland WILL stay in Scotland and this is the real reason the UK do not want Scotland to leave Remember David Cameron saying live on the Marr show that Norway a country of 4 million have as much oil as us and they do very well strange eh as Scotland a country of 5 million and pro unionists think we cant make it on our own go figure that eh. I dont post links but if am right i think the Daily Record had a print of the poll not sure but i think they did and you know how much unionists believe every word the Daily Record says eh. | |||
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"That will be the UK government that was elected by the voters of the UK, I know you dont like it but there are votes in Holyrood that I dont like, but that is their right to do so. Theres plenty to stop them from involving the governments of the devolved parliaments, namely that they do not have the interests of the whole of the UK at heart but only how it would effect the devolved administrations. Once again, why would the UK government wish to involve the snp when their only aim is to destroy the union and would, I have n doubt, undermine the UK government in any negotiations. And who could trust Sturgeon with any sensitive information, we all seen how she takes confidential conversations recently. Yet again youve gave me a chuckle, you say you never trust a tory and you supply a quote from David Cameron (who is a tory) on oil to support your argument. Did you trust him then? Was he telling the truth? We have seen that the projections from the white paper for oil revenue were out by a mere £8212m, that not an opinion, thats a demonstrable fact. Again, the chuckles dont stop, you mention a poll, a poll that you cant reproduce from a newspaper that you have a dig at for being a propaganda sheet for unionism and that makes it credible. Christ man, you are all over the place. "Not true Scotland rejected the Tories unless you think the Tories win the election in Scotland where a mere 13 mp's out of 59 do the math and you can tell that aint the majority lol Interesting you say there is Holyrood that I dont like, but that is their right to do so. So the vote to have a section 30 order passing democratically is the right to hold a referendum that they have a mandate for when the brexit deal is known ? Right so you are happy for the Tories to do the talking on the behalf of Scotland correct ? So what makes you trust the Tories on getting a good deal? I dont trust the Tories what am pointing out is David Cameron said on live tv Norway a country of 4 million does really well with oil and Scotland is a country of 5 million and unionists do not believe Scotland can make it on its own lol So remember back in 2014 Cameron saying the UK will have an oil boom question where the fuck is that ? Am not gonna post links go find them on your own i will stick with the rules on here thank you. Am not here to do your homework you are an adult that can go look for a poll yourself. | |||
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"https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/exclusive-poll-send-message-number-10727631.amp" probably wont believe the poll but happy to believe the polls that says no support for independence and the ones that show support for independence again they wont believe them
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""nteresting you say there is Holyrood that I dont like, but that is their right to do so. So the vote to have a section 30 order passing democratically is the right to hold a referendum that they have a mandate for when the brexit deal is known ?" Exactly, I dont like it but I do accept it. The circumstances of the the vote and the attitude of the duplicitous greens left a sour taste but it it what it is. Another thing that is what it is, is that the final say whether the section 30 order is granted or not is at the discretion of the Prime Minister, I wonder whether you will, accept her decision, as is her right? "Right so you are happy for the Tories to do the talking on the behalf of Scotland correct ? " No, not correct at all, happy is not the word I,d use but I do think that they will endeavour to get the best deal for the whole of the UK, not just Scotland. Brexit is bigger than just Scotland, this will effect people from the whole of the UK, stop being so bloody parochial. They were ALL wrong in the oil predictions, that includes John Swinney that predicted a £200bn oil boom , your not on his case are you? Or the white paper that combined the best case scenario assumptions from various forecasts into one fantasist figure to dupe people, that is out by £8212m. Youre keeping quiet on that one. I wonder why. Ask yourself, if we were stupid enough to vote for independence, how much shite would we be in right now. And who exactly would get the blame for the debacle we would have found ourself in. You couldnt blame the tories for that. There are no rules here prohibiting posting links, as long as they are credible sites that you are linking to. " Good to hear so you agree the Scottish government have a mandate and in Holyrood a democratic vote took place and passed to have a new independence referendum so that then means you think the UK government should not block an independence referendum for when its planned ? My opinion is like it always has been the Scottish government have a mandate to hold a referendum on independence why the fuck should that be blocked ? No i wont accept if she blocked one because that there is a fucking slap in the face of democracy when a government do have a mandate. Right so your not happy for the Tories to speak on behalf of Scotland ? But you trust the Tories to get a good deal in what way makes you think and trust the Tories on that issue ? See think is a know oil is not the only revenue Scotland has its a bonus I will still respect the site and not post links my choice but hey you will see above someone has posted it for but i know you wont believe it anyway | |||
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""Good to hear so you agree the Scottish government have a mandate and in Holyrood a democratic vote took place and passed to have a new independence referendum so that then means you think the UK government should not block an independence referendum for when its planned ?" Your first part is correct but typically for you, your conclusion part is not. Just as its the right of the Scottish government to ask for one, its the right of the UK Prime Minister to grant or refuse that permission. She may take the position that the question was asked and the answer given in 2014 and settled it for a generation. And I would support her on that. "My opinion is like it always has been the Scottish government have a mandate to hold a referendum on independence why the fuck should that be blocked ? No i wont accept if she blocked one because that there is a fucking slap in the face of democracy when a government do have a mandate." What exactly does that first sentence mean? Its a devolved parliament, some powers are devolved and some powers are reserved, the constitution of the UK is reserved to Westminster. Just that the UK government would not interfere in the powers that are reserved, a devolved administration should not interfere with powers that are reserved. Thats how it is, not how you want it to be. Personally speakng, as soon as it was voted for in Holyrood, I would have given consent immediatelly to it before Brexit negotiations started and called her bluff and how I would have love to see sturgeon have a shite hemorrhage. :Right so your not happy for the Tories to speak on behalf of Scotland ? But you trust the Tories to get a good deal in what way makes you think and trust the Tories on that issue ?" Are you incapable of reading what I post? Happy is not the word I,d use but I do think that they will enter into talks with the EU in the best interests of the UK, again stop being so parochial. This is the situation that we are in and they are the government in power, you either accept it and get on with it or you can snipe on the sidelines and do nothing constructive. I do trust our civil servants, it will be them that actually do the deal and it will be them that do the real negotiations, the politicians will just rubber stamp it. "See think is a know oil is not the only revenue Scotland has its a bonus" What the fuck is that ? You,ll need to translate that for me." Lol thing is since the 2014 question on independence the SNP have went onto win the 2015 , 2016 and 2017 elections and in those manifesto's they made it clear the Scottish government should have the right to call an independence referendum if Scotland faced being dragged out of the EU and the people elected SNP so that means the SNP do have a mandate infact a triple lock mandate now. So you would deny one on the reason Scotland has had one already but strange as no where in that Edinburgh Agreement says there wont ever be another one again and as i keep asking who get to make that decision when a generation is ? I know someone says 30 years but is it dead on 30 years or could it be 10 years 20 , 21, 15 , 7 , 31, 41 , who will decide eh will it be the people of Scotland same people that elected the SNP on their manifesto policy and the people gave them a mandate on ? Yeah you said it some powers so you are happy for the UK government that Scotland rejects to hold power over the will of the Scottish people to decide our future ? Ah right i get you so your ok with the UK government sticking their noses into Scottish matters but not when it involves our future can you remember the Scotland bill and Home Rule being promised to Scotland then they watered it down to where the unelected lords got to decide which extra powers Scotland would get ? Your quote I do think that they will enter into talks with the EU in the best interests of the UK Lol so best interests of the UK eh so when the PM came out and said she wont sign the Article 50 without the agreement of ALL devolved parliaments but went ahead with it anyway when she knew fine well she didnt have the agreement Right genuine question what happens if the Tories do not get a deal and it makes Scotland worse off then what will you just shrug your shoulders and say so what ? | |||
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"When Scotland joined the union it was bankrupt from the Darien scheme, the failed colonisation of a swamp in Belize! We had no money. The "nobility" and the rich were compensated for this disaster by the Crown at the time, the price for this compensation was joining the union. This is where Burns phrase "parcel of rogues" came from. " Read my post - I mentioned NATIONAL debt. Scotland was NOT bankrupt. I made no mention of the failed investment of those individuals who gambled on Darien, precisely because that disaster was not state funded. The reason for rioting in the streets was the sell-out of our country by the establishment for personal gain; the betrayal of a nation and the majority of the unfranchised population by a few individual scoundrels. The better together rogues of their day. Mind you, the threat of English invasion was also intended to concentrate the minds of the parliamentarians in that shameful shotgun wedding, just in case there were not enough Toom Tabards to do the bidding of the English.... much like Brown & Darling centuries later. | |||
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" This £15bn that keeps getting banded about is small beer in the UK debt scale of things and if we had control of all income and spending - and borrowing - we could deal with any deficit (as most countries do) as we see fit. We also wouldn't be spending in the likes of the aforementioned aircraft carriers, trident, Hs2 and Heathrow expansion to name a few projects we will be footing the bill for. The latter alone is more than the magical £15bn deficit." £15bn is the deficit, not the debt. The two are different things and mixing them up muddies the waters. So with regards to the £15bn deficit, this is larger as a percentage of GDP than Greece had at it's worst. It's not something that can be hand waved away that's why the strategy post indy in 2014 was to try to cast doubt on the figures as addressing the deficit would be a very hard sell to the electorate (huge public spending cuts, tax rises etc) With regards to the projects above you mentioned being worth more than £15bn, how much is Scotland's annual share towards them? It's far far lower than the £11bn subsidy we receive for being in the UK, in fact it appears to be less than £0.5bn a year. And lets not forget that the SNP are delighted with the Heathrow expansion. | |||
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""Right genuine question what happens if the Tories do not get a deal and it makes Scotland worse off then what will you just shrug your shoulders and say so what ?" Ah so now were speculating on what might happen, fair enough. I would have to look around and see if there are any credible alternatives to try and get us back to being as well off as we are now. Can I throw the same question back at you but with a different slant, if the UK government get a deal that makes Scotland better off and with powers repatriated back from Brussels, then will you say well done and congratulate them and reject independence or will you continue to campaign for independence, even though we would be worse off because of it? I suspect I already know your answer but I,d like to see your reply. I,ve answered your hypothetical question as honestly as I could, would you do me the courtesy of answering mine? " Ok to answer your question if the UK government get a deal to keep full membership of the single market then yeah an independence referendum will be off the table for this parliament if they dont then 100% there will be an independence referendum where i will vote yes again. Very unlikely though for them to fight for the single market Also if they dont agree to bring in the Scottish government inro brexit talks it wont look good on the Tories | |||
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"Thanks for not answering the question, that "answer" says a lot about you. That was probably the most dishonest answer ever given to a straight question. Not only did you fail to answer the question asked, but you simply ignored it and made up an entirely different question to the one that was asked and answered it instead. I gave you a honest answer to your question, I asked for the same in return, it never came! This says a lot about your honesty and reaffirms what I have said earlier, independence transcends all, and that includes honesty. This shows how deluded you really are, if EU membership for the UK is so important to you, why did you vote to leave, both the UK and the EU in 2014? I do not expect an answer. " No that was an answer if the UK government to get a deal where Scotland has full membership of the single market then yeah an independence referendum will end up being off the table for this parliament. If they fail to get a deal on the single market then like i said there will be an independence referendum where the Scottish people will decide if they agree to it and where you will still be able to vote no Ah that shite of 2014 where you claim a yes vote meant leaving the EU thing is you do know there would have been 2 years of talks with the UK and EU. Its a different story now where even the EU are welcoming a independent Scotland hell they even told you all the Spain veto myth on Scottish independence is all bullshit but did pro unionists listen nope they were all caught up in believing the British media lol | |||
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"There will be no Indy2 the Snp will lose so many seats in the next elections at Holyrood and General election. It will not even be a question, there piss poor record in Govt the swing leftwards of Labour and peoples all round dissatisfaction will leave them struggling to get more than 30%......Oh and now we have another fiasco when the new economic figures are published tomorrow...They are to use the vernacular...Total shite "Do you accept the SNP do have a mandate to have one when the brexit deal is known ? Also what you so afraid of to have an independence referendum you do you no one would stop you voting no again ? Ah so you think people are going swing to Scottish Labour branch remember all of the Scottish Labour branch mp's barr one abstained on the amendment to keep the single market. Thats a big no no Also remember 2016 Scottish election where Kezia lead the Scottish Labour branch into 3rd place lmao | |||
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"Stop digging yourself in a deeper hole, you ignored my question, invented a new one and answered that instead. My question did not mention full membership of the single market, yet your answer did, I said a good deal and repatriation of powers from Brussels . I answered yours honestly, its a pity you could not reciprocate. An independent Scotland by definition would no longer be part of a member state therefore no longer be member of the EU. Do I need to show you the letter from the EU again, remember the one from V Reding the commissioner for citizenship to C McKelvie. https://www.parliament.scot/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf " No i answered it like i said if the UK government get a good deal which would be full membership on to keep single market then yes independence will end up coming off the table how much more clearly can i put that but if they fail to get that deal on full membership of the single market then there will be an independence referendum. What do you class as a good deal ? I take it you dont want full membership of the single market and risk 80,000 Scottish jobs being lost in Scotland. Again if there had been a yes vote in 2014 there would have been two years of talks with the Uk government and the EU are you saying you know how they would have went now ? Most important thing is the EU are very welcome to an independent Scotland being in the EU and said there would be no problem with Scotland being in the EU and no que as a que does not exist no matter how much you try and spin that shite you either meet it or you dont. Also there is no Spain veto on an independent Scotland lol | |||
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"You never answered my question, you made one up and answered it. You are simply dishonest and and digging yourself in a deeper hole. I answered YOUR question, you did not answer mine! Shall I repeat it for you to ignore it again? " Yes i did a good deal for me that will make sure Scotland is better off is being in the single market and thats full membership of the single market that would be a good deal if they dont get that deal then Scotland will have an independence referendum | |||
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"Who mentioned queues? You FFS. Your wee strawman tactic again, invent a position, attribute it to someone else, and argue against it. There are terms and conditions to joining the EU, at the moment we simply can't comply with them. " Come on you now saying pro unionists havent made that shit up before about there being a que to join the EU ? You either meet the criteria or you dont meet it and since Scotland is already in the EU as it stands yes not member state before you go on about that again i know that also the EU have said there would be no problem with an independent Scotland being in the EU and could fast track it. Good to see though pro unionists have finally accepted there is no veto on an independent Scotland being in the EU the real veto is on Gibraltar which anyone could have saw a mile coming all but the British media they were all pumped up for the veto on Scotland how they were made to look like right arses | |||
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"Of course their is a veto, all 27 existing members have a vote on any new members states joining it, and it must be unanimous. Why are you always wrong? " Right this is on both posts to what you said 1. You either meet the criteria to be in the EU or you dont there is no que to join 2. Right i see am going to have to be crystal clear on the veto myth Right the Spain veto has been debunked do you honestly believe Spain would veto an independent Scotland where a democratic yes vote made Scotland independent that would be fucking madness I agree all 27 countries do have a veto but the point am making it Spain will NOT veto an independent Scotland that voted YES in a referendum Lets say Scotland used the UDI then Spain may veto it and other countries could as well veto it as they might say they dont see it an independent there is the point am making to veto a country that that countries people democratically voted to become independent would be utter fucking madness | |||
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"I,ll ask you again, do we meet the criteria to join, do we comply with the acquis, specifically chapter 17? Yes or no? " Yes an independent Scotland would meet the criteria breaking news Scotland is already bloody in the EU yes you dont need to use your ''not member state'' I know the UK is member state but all for nations in the UK are in the EU at the moment so Scotland already meets the criteria and seen as there is no que that only made up shite from pro unionists and like i said EU chiefs already said there would be no problem for an independent Scotland being in the EU and could be fast tracked Do you agree with me that it would be madness for Spain or anyone else in the EU to veto an independent Scotland that democratically voted YES to become independent ? So in all the Spain veto on an independent Scotland is aload of shite but they do have a veto on Gibralter but then again pro unionists were well warned not to go with that shite about a veto from Spain on Scottish independence but once again they fell for it by the British media lol | |||
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""Scotland is already bloody in the EU yes you dont need to use your ''not member state'' I know the UK is member state but all for nations in the UK are in the EU at the moment " Scotland is part of a member state, it itself is not a member state why do you continue to post this outright lie. Do yourself a favour and go to the EU,s own website and find Scotland as a member of the EU. You,ll be some time doing so. I couldn't find it. ?? " Scotland , England , Wales , NI all in the EU and that means all of them meet the criteria or the UK wouldnt be member state in the EU | |||
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""Do you agree with me that it would be madness for Spain or anyone else in the EU to veto an independent Scotland that democratically voted YES to become independent ?" If was in their national interest to veto Scotland then they would be mad not to. Other countries have been vetoed before, why do you think we are exceptional? " Clearly you aint been listening to what the EU have been saying The EU have been very welcoming for an Independent Scotland being in the EU they also have been saying should Scotland ever vote to be an independent country then Scotland could be fast tracked into the EU oh look no que as some unionists were claiming Scotland would have to wait in a long que lol Also like i said if Scotland were to have a legal referendum on independence and the vote came back as a YES vote for Scotland to become independent and then talks on Scotland being in the EU started you really think Spain or that would veto a country that it's countries people democratically voted to become independent that would be mad Like i said i could see the point if Scotland used UDI and self declared independence and then asked the EU to join then i could see some countries may veto that and say they dont see Scotland as independent All in the Spain veto was a myth and you know it the EU made it very clear Spain have a veto on Gibraltar not Scotland see the EU know Scotland is in a different position than Catalonia dont believe me that see Spain MEP from Spain's own government But hey everyone was well warned there is no Spain veto on Scotland but no one listened they were lied to by the British media and this is why you cant trust those fuckers | |||
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