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The actual not leaked Labour Party manifesto
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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
Reading through it now and I am really looking for something to really not like
Have to say I am finding trouble
It is actually really sensible..... there isn't anything in there I throughly oppose
.... my base line at the beginning was could I see myself voting for corbyn and my answer was no
Based on actual policy I can't now say that... so now it's the actual person |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
In principle it is full of good thinking but it cannot be done in one parliament.If ,say it was fund the national health,education and one nationalisation yes maybe,it is a 20 year programme which no government has the money for it is a dream.
It is a manifesto for national poverty,as many firms would leave the Uk because of the planned corporation tax rises. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
Well I suppose the £50 Billion being raised in taxation will go to servicing the interest payments on the national debt, and then that allows them to take out more loans.
The additional CT will push up inflation, as ultimately the consumer will pay.
There's some elements of the manifesto that I like.... The rail nationalization as franchises become available, starting national companies to compete in the energy market.
But what they've got to do is run them as if get were businesses, not as a bottomless pit to reduce unemployment, as used to be the case before privatisation.
And I'm not sure that Labour can do that.
"Hope over fear"....
The hope is that the country can afford it...
The fear is it can't. |
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By *immyXXMan
over a year ago
Pontypridd |
After skiming through it I'm finding it hard to find a negative,, yes there are arguments over taxes and business leaving? But for the normal I think the Labour Party have possibly got it about right,, after the remain debacle havnt the Tories realised that fighting an election on "but taxes will rise, business and banks blah blablah" doesn't mean a thing to normal people who have nothing to lose by financial argument,, because they havnt got any!!!! We actually hope your stocks and shares do go down!!!! |
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Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?"
What war is it we should fight? It's always been about living or surviving life. People want to be richer even if you have everythijng you need. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Its a vote winning manifesto.Its been received well by the media and public.I read today 400,000 new voters under 25 registered to vote in the last few weeks.  |
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?"
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it "
As has always been the way its "his story" not yours.History is often one sided and viewed through the lense of the present.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Let's hope shadow Chancellor John McDonnell can perform better than he did on Radio 4 this morning, when he announces the detailed costings in the next day or two!"
The electorate are mostly concerned with what they put on the side of the battle bus and sound bites you can take down the pub. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"as has always been the way its "his story" not yours.History is often one sided and viewed through the lense of the present. "
the current edition was revised and produced by Alt-Reich ltd  |
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"Let's hope shadow Chancellor John McDonnell can perform better than he did on Radio 4 this morning, when he announces the detailed costings in the next day or two!"
Maybe he will find the answers in Chairman Mao's little red book. |
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"as has always been the way its "his story" not yours.History is often one sided and viewed through the lense of the present.
the current edition was revised and produced by Alt-Reich ltd "
Or Erich Hoeniker. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Re-nationalisation of many industries is such a bad idea.
Where are they going to get the money to pay for it all?
The conservatives have been working on getting the deficit down for the last 7 years. Labours plans will increase the deficit immensely, meaning that the country will have to borrow higher and higher amounts in order to cover the shortfall. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Let's hope shadow Chancellor John McDonnell can perform better than he did on Radio 4 this morning, when he announces the detailed costings in the next day or two!The electorate are mostly concerned with what they put on the side of the battle bus and sound bites you can take down the pub. "
We all make mistakes along the way, but with Labour having to dig deep and scrap in this GE campaign, it just astounds me to see how badly briefed their senior polticians are at times. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Let's hope shadow Chancellor John McDonnell can perform better than he did on Radio 4 this morning, when he announces the detailed costings in the next day or two!The electorate are mostly concerned with what they put on the side of the battle bus and sound bites you can take down the pub.
We all make mistakes along the way, but with Labour having to dig deep and scrap in this GE campaign, it just astounds me to see how badly briefed their senior polticians are at times."
I dont doubt you are right. I find most politicians inept and bumbling and unqualified to be in positions of power. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Re-nationalisation of many industries is such a bad idea.
Where are they going to get the money to pay for it all?
The conservatives have been working on getting the deficit down for the last 7 years. Labours plans will increase the deficit immensely, meaning that the country will have to borrow higher and higher amounts in order to cover the shortfall."
Tried and failed.
Funnily enough other economies that tried stimulus instead of austerity are doing.... |
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May 2010 national debt £979.8 billion (65% of GDP)
May 2017 national debt £1731.4 billion (89% of GDP)
So there is and has been plenty of money to give away to big business and the super rich in the last 7 years of austerity but cuts have been the order of the day for the many...
Tory wages policy, if you are a top earner you should be paid more, work less and be taxed less. If you are on minimum pay or a nurse you should be paid less and work more.
Funny how its always the same shite that gets spouted by voices...
Cant trust Labour with the economy, we cant afford to fund the NHS, cant afford to fund education, cant afford to fund social care, cant afford to build social housing, cant afford to have a nationalised rail network, cant afford to maintain the roads, cant afford full employment and decent wages for all. But we can afford to bail out the banks, and the bankers can afford their 6 and 7 figure bonuses, and we can afford to have other countries nationalised rail companies run parts of our rail network for profit thus subsidising foreign rail networks.
What we really cant afford is another 5 years of tory cuts for the many to make the few even richer. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it "
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history. |
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"this latest batch of economists are defective. we need to cull the lot and start to grow some new economists "
Funny that. When they were all telling us how bad Brexit would be the lefties thought they were masters of the universe.  |
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history."
And your take on the Soviet Union, East Germany, Cambodia, China, and most recently, Venezuela (among many others) is?
Hardly bastions of capitalism that lot. |
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"Re-nationalisation of many industries is such a bad idea.
Where are they going to get the money to pay for it all?
The conservatives have been working on getting the deficit down for the last 7 years. Labours plans will increase the deficit immensely, meaning that the country will have to borrow higher and higher amounts in order to cover the shortfall."
Really?
We pay 4 times as much in subsidies to the rail franchise operators today than we paid British Rail.
Labour will borrow...
Not the Tories tho...
Wait a minute...
May 2010 national debt £979.8 billion (65% of GDP)
May 2017 national debt £1731.4 billion (89% of GDP).
Ah I see now...
That was not borrowing and doubling the national debt to fund tax cuts for multinationals and the super rich, that was working on getting the deficit down. I would laugh normally, but your political logic just is not funny any more. |
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"Re-nationalisation of many industries is such a bad idea.
Where are they going to get the money to pay for it all?
The conservatives have been working on getting the deficit down for the last 7 years. Labours plans will increase the deficit immensely, meaning that the country will have to borrow higher and higher amounts in order to cover the shortfall.
Really?
We pay 4 times as much in subsidies to the rail franchise operators today than we paid British Rail.
Labour will borrow...
Not the Tories tho...
Wait a minute...
May 2010 national debt £979.8 billion (65% of GDP)
May 2017 national debt £1731.4 billion (89% of GDP).
Ah I see now...
That was not borrowing and doubling the national debt to fund tax cuts for multinationals and the super rich, that was working on getting the deficit down. I would laugh normally, but your political logic just is not funny any more."
On the face of it all good numbers.
However you forget one VERY important thing.
Unless the budget deficit is completely wiped out (then you'd really be bleating about austerity) the total national debt will always rise.
So make your mind up, what do you want?
More austerity and pay off the debt, less austerity but still run a deficit, or Corbyn's magic money tree? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
And your take on the Soviet Union, East Germany, Cambodia, China, and most recently, Venezuela (among many others) is?
Hardly bastions of capitalism that lot."
Already two Chileans killed for supporting Venezuela's government. |
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"And your take on the Soviet Union, East Germany, Cambodia, China, and most recently, Venezuela (among many others) is?
Hardly bastions of capitalism that lot."
And in that post you show either your complete lack of economic understanding or your total refusal to see the truth because of your adherence to a right wing political philosophy.
You see every country you named is and was a capitalist economy, you equate a command economy and state capitalism with communism, that completely wrong, the hint is in their names. Even the state ownership of assets does not equate to communism. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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now the kipturds have shrivelled up like a dog doo on a sunny day, the new one trick pony in town is the tory party who have completely downed tools on all the work that needs doing other than brexit and that's a big mistake |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
...On the face of it all good numbers.
However you forget one VERY important thing.
Unless the budget deficit is completely wiped out (then you'd really be bleating about austerity) the total national debt will always rise.
So make your mind up, what do you want?
More austerity and pay off the debt, less austerity but still run a deficit, or Corbyn's magic money tree?"
The other important thing (and I actually agree with re-nationalising the railways, water and injecting more money into the NHS) is can we trust Corbyn to negotiate a genuine Brexit!? And I think he would roll over and have his tummy tickled by Merkel and her new French toy boy. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
...On the face of it all good numbers.
However you forget one VERY important thing.
Unless the budget deficit is completely wiped out (then you'd really be bleating about austerity) the total national debt will always rise.
So make your mind up, what do you want?
More austerity and pay off the debt, less austerity but still run a deficit, or Corbyn's magic money tree?
The other important thing (and I actually agree with re-nationalising the railways, water and injecting more money into the NHS) is can we trust Corbyn to negotiate a genuine Brexit!? And I think he would roll over and have his tummy tickled by Merkel and her new French toy boy. "
Didn't he vote brexit? May voted remain? Who's interest is it to roll over? Don't think May will be strong and stable. Did you not see her interview and was asked whether she'd see brexit through. She kept stumbling her words. |
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"More austerity and pay off the debt, less austerity but still run a deficit, or Corbyn's magic money tree?"
And there we have it...
38 years of thatcherite, Keynesian free market economics and each year the gap between rich and poor widens. The debts increase. And government investment interventionism is now seen as being the realm of mad.
More cuts! More cuts! More cuts!
That's what we need! close the hospitals! Sack the doctors and nurses! Close the police and fire stations! Disband the military!
What we need are more minimum wage zero hours contracts, food banks and homelessness.
That way we can get rid of income tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax and the national debt. No need for infrastructure, the super rich will still be OK in their gated communities protected by their private police forces and able to get around in perfect safety their private and corporate helicopters. |
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"And your take on the Soviet Union, East Germany, Cambodia, China, and most recently, Venezuela (among many others) is?
Hardly bastions of capitalism that lot.
And in that post you show either your complete lack of economic understanding or your total refusal to see the truth because of your adherence to a right wing political philosophy.
You see every country you named is and was a capitalist economy, you equate a command economy and state capitalism with communism, that completely wrong, the hint is in their names. Even the state ownership of assets does not equate to communism."
Factually incorrect. |
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history."
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago? |
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it As has always been the way its "his story" not yours.History is often one sided and viewed through the lense of the present. "
You can put a slant on history one way or the other but every single economy that has collectively organised the vast majority of the means of production rather than privately has been poorer for it. The only country that still does it is north korea. Even cuba ditched it. China has the world's best growth record as soon as they ditched it. The soviet union collapsed because it wouldn't ditch it. All the countries that 'socialists' (whatever they are) point to and say "why can't we be more like them" are actually just high tax capitalist economies. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago? "
But people were tortured, killed and went missing. It was a dictatorship backed by capitalist funds to create a capitalist economy in Chile. Sounds a bit more barbaric than 250 years ago. |
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"Factually incorrect. "
???
Do explain, I'm all ears...
Maybe start by defining communism and capitalism in a couple of simple sentences. Maybe explain the roll money and property in the two systems.
Then maybe name a communist 'state'. I only really know of one and that is not a state but an organisation. |
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago?
But people were tortured, killed and went missing. It was a dictatorship backed by capitalist funds to create a capitalist economy in Chile. Sounds a bit more barbaric than 250 years ago. "
Chile isn't really a good example of capitalism though, capitalism can't work properly in a dictatorship. |
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"And your take on the Soviet Union, East Germany, Cambodia, China, and most recently, Venezuela (among many others) is?
Hardly bastions of capitalism that lot.
And in that post you show either your complete lack of economic understanding or your total refusal to see the truth because of your adherence to a right wing political philosophy.
You see every country you named is and was a capitalist economy, you equate a command economy and state capitalism with communism, that completely wrong, the hint is in their names. Even the state ownership of assets does not equate to communism.
Factually incorrect. "
What's new? |
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"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago?
But people were tortured, killed and went missing. It was a dictatorship backed by capitalist funds to create a capitalist economy in Chile. Sounds a bit more barbaric than 250 years ago. "
Maybe but tell that to a Venezuelan. Oh and that is happening TODAY.
Communism/Socialism (give it whatever name tag you like) KILLS. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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What happens when everyone working for the re-nationalised industries go on strike? As they would within weeks. Does Corbyn go along with the workers demands or become a 'boss'? Where and when does it end? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago?
But people were tortured, killed and went missing. It was a dictatorship backed by capitalist funds to create a capitalist economy in Chile. Sounds a bit more barbaric than 250 years ago.
Chile isn't really a good example of capitalism though, capitalism can't work properly in a dictatorship. "
Singapore is a dictatorship of sorts and capitalism flourishes. |
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"Factually incorrect.
???
Do explain, I'm all ears...
Maybe start by defining communism and capitalism in a couple of simple sentences. Maybe explain the roll money and property in the two systems.
Then maybe name a communist 'state'. I only really know of one and that is not a state but an organisation."
The Soviet Union was controlled by the Communist party for 70 (ish) years. Result? It went tits up.
Soviet sponsored (controlled) Communist party's ran East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and others for decades. Result? They all went tits up.
Communist party's ran China, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Result? They all ditched it and now prosper, well at least by comparison to when they had it.
Bottom line is that not one NOT ONE Communist country is better off for it.
Even Cuba (often quoted as a shining example) may have a decent health service and an adequate education system but the vast majority of the population live in REAL poverty. Not the imagined poverty of western European lefties.
So go on tell me the one Communist/Socialist country that we should all copy and live happily ever after. BTW. Walt Disney is dead.
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"Factually incorrect.
???
Do explain, I'm all ears...
Maybe start by defining communism and capitalism in a couple of simple sentences. Maybe explain the roll money and property in the two systems.
Then maybe name a communist 'state'. I only really know of one and that is not a state but an organisation."
Ok, the means of production / property / land can either be privately owned or collectively owned. No capitalist has ever claimed 100% or an economy should be private or there isn't a role for government. But in a capitalist economy the rights of an individual to hold title to land and assets are protected and the state role is predominantly to regulate and provide emergency services and defence.
In a communist society the state holds all land and property. Private individuals have no right to hold it or trade it.
Money is simply an exchange mechanism and is the same in both cases. Economies can function without money, many do, money is just more convenient.
I can't say how it is today because i know it's changed recently but 5 years ago cuba was certaintly communist. A taxi driver would not own the taxi they drove, the state would. Nor would they own their home, again the state would. Britian is still capitalist (just) because if i purchase a taxi then the state has no right to seize it from me provided i stay within the law. Whilst the crown owns all the land my title to my home is tradable, valuable and again cannot be siezed arbitrarily by the state.
There is of course state capitalism which is what corbyn would like. Russia is a good example of that, the state is happy for the free market to operate, except when it isn't. The state may arbitrarily sieze property from individuals. It usually owns various companies outright whilst allowing others to operate privately for the time being.
In reality Corbyn and John McDonnell are self confessed communists and therefore i would assume they actually only want state capitalism as a stepping stone to communism.
Other than the last bit, which was opinion, none of what I've said is really contested in economic circles so which bit did you disagree with? |
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"What happens when everyone working for the re-nationalised industries go on strike? As they would within weeks. Does Corbyn go along with the workers demands or become a 'boss'? Where and when does it end? "
That is the question you will never get an answer to. |
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"Factually incorrect."
In answer to the above, I said:
???
Do explain, I'm all ears...
Maybe start by defining communism and capitalism in a couple of simple sentences. Maybe explain the roll money and property in the two systems.
Then maybe name a communist 'state'. I only really know of one and that is not a state but an organisation.
...
So you reply with this piece of nonsensical propaganda...
"The Soviet Union was controlled by the Communist party for 70 (ish) years. Result? It went tits up.
Soviet sponsored (controlled) Communist party's ran East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and others for decades. Result? They all went tits up.
Communist party's ran China, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Result? They all ditched it and now prosper, well at least by comparison to when they had it.
Bottom line is that not one NOT ONE Communist country is better off for it.
Even Cuba (often quoted as a shining example) may have a decent health service and an adequate education system but the vast majority of the population live in REAL poverty. Not the imagined poverty of western European lefties.
So go on tell me the one Communist/Socialist country that we should all copy and live happily ever after. BTW. Walt Disney is dead.
"
Now why don't you see if you can define capitalism in one simple sentence. Then do the same for communism.
I gave a big hint as to what the answer should be when I mentioned money and property, they should be front and centre in any correct and relevant answer.
By the way calling yourself a communist party does not make you communists in the same way as calling your country a democratic republic does not mean it is. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What happens when everyone working for the re-nationalised industries go on strike? As they would within weeks. Does Corbyn go along with the workers demands or become a 'boss'? Where and when does it end?
That is the question you will never get an answer to. "
Because no one is going to entertain your strawman hypothetical? |
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"Ok, the means of production / property / land can either be privately owned or collectively owned. No capitalist has ever claimed 100% or an economy should be private or there isn't a role for government. But in a capitalist economy the rights of an individual to hold title to land and assets are protected and the state role is predominantly to regulate and provide emergency services and defence.
In a communist society the state holds all land and property. Private individuals have no right to hold it or trade it.
Money is simply an exchange mechanism and is the same in both cases. Economies can function without money, many do, money is just more convenient.
I can't say how it is today because i know it's changed recently but 5 years ago cuba was certaintly communist. A taxi driver would not own the taxi they drove, the state would. Nor would they own their home, again the state would. Britian is still capitalist (just) because if i purchase a taxi then the state has no right to seize it from me provided i stay within the law. Whilst the crown owns all the land my title to my home is tradable, valuable and again cannot be siezed arbitrarily by the state.
There is of course state capitalism which is what corbyn would like. Russia is a good example of that, the state is happy for the free market to operate, except when it isn't. The state may arbitrarily sieze property from individuals. It usually owns various companies outright whilst allowing others to operate privately for the time being.
In reality Corbyn and John McDonnell are self confessed communists and therefore i would assume they actually only want state capitalism as a stepping stone to communism.
Other than the last bit, which was opinion, none of what I've said is really contested in economic circles so which bit did you disagree with? "
What a pile of sanctimonious garbage.
Capitalism is an economic system based on the value of property, for a capitalist system to work efficiently it needs money. Therefore any system that has property (regardless of who controls it) and money is a capitalist system.
Communism is an economic system based on the idea that there is no property and therefore there is no need for money.
the only working communist system I know of in the world is that practised by the priesthood of a number of religion, the largest and most successful being the Roman Catholic Church. These are communist organisations because on entering all property becomes the churches and the church then looks after all needs equally regardless of rank within the priesthood. Of course in the past there have been communist cultures like many of the Polynesians and the Hawaiians in particular.
2 simple sentences, 2 systems explained. An extra sentence to show a working communist model. And a final one to show that it has been successful in the past.
Now here is my next question to you, why couldn't you actually define what capitalism and communism are? Is it because to do so proves that every country in the world operates some form of economic capitalism? |
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"Factually incorrect.
???
Do explain, I'm all ears...
Maybe start by defining communism and capitalism in a couple of simple sentences. Maybe explain the roll money and property in the two systems.
Then maybe name a communist 'state'. I only really know of one and that is not a state but an organisation.
The Soviet Union was controlled by the Communist party for 70 (ish) years. Result? It went tits up.
Soviet sponsored (controlled) Communist party's ran East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and others for decades. Result? They all went tits up.
Communist party's ran China, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Result? They all ditched it and now prosper, well at least by comparison to when they had it.
Bottom line is that not one NOT ONE Communist country is better off for it.
Even Cuba (often quoted as a shining example) may have a decent health service and an adequate education system but the vast majority of the population live in REAL poverty. Not the imagined poverty of western European lefties.
So go on tell me the one Communist/Socialist country that we should all copy and live happily ever after. BTW. Walt Disney is dead.
"
Actually comrade the WHO ranks cubas health system worse than america. American is the boogey man whenever we discuss reforming the NHS so hardly a shining example of communism in action. The real reason it does as well as it does is because cuba has a deal to trade doctors for oil with Venezuela. Lots of people train to be doctors so they can get posted to Venezuela and leg it for the border. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets. |
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"Ok, the means of production / property / land can either be privately owned or collectively owned. No capitalist has ever claimed 100% or an economy should be private or there isn't a role for government. But in a capitalist economy the rights of an individual to hold title to land and assets are protected and the state role is predominantly to regulate and provide emergency services and defence.
In a communist society the state holds all land and property. Private individuals have no right to hold it or trade it.
Money is simply an exchange mechanism and is the same in both cases. Economies can function without money, many do, money is just more convenient.
I can't say how it is today because i know it's changed recently but 5 years ago cuba was certaintly communist. A taxi driver would not own the taxi they drove, the state would. Nor would they own their home, again the state would. Britian is still capitalist (just) because if i purchase a taxi then the state has no right to seize it from me provided i stay within the law. Whilst the crown owns all the land my title to my home is tradable, valuable and again cannot be siezed arbitrarily by the state.
There is of course state capitalism which is what corbyn would like. Russia is a good example of that, the state is happy for the free market to operate, except when it isn't. The state may arbitrarily sieze property from individuals. It usually owns various companies outright whilst allowing others to operate privately for the time being.
In reality Corbyn and John McDonnell are self confessed communists and therefore i would assume they actually only want state capitalism as a stepping stone to communism.
Other than the last bit, which was opinion, none of what I've said is really contested in economic circles so which bit did you disagree with?
What a pile of sanctimonious garbage.
Capitalism is an economic system based on the value of property, for a capitalist system to work efficiently it needs money. Therefore any system that has property (regardless of who controls it) and money is a capitalist system.
Communism is an economic system based on the idea that there is no property and therefore there is no need for money.
the only working communist system I know of in the world is that practised by the priesthood of a number of religion, the largest and most successful being the Roman Catholic Church. These are communist organisations because on entering all property becomes the churches and the church then looks after all needs equally regardless of rank within the priesthood. Of course in the past there have been communist cultures like many of the Polynesians and the Hawaiians in particular.
2 simple sentences, 2 systems explained. An extra sentence to show a working communist model. And a final one to show that it has been successful in the past.
Now here is my next question to you, why couldn't you actually define what capitalism and communism are? Is it because to do so proves that every country in the world operates some form of economic capitalism? "
I found that hillarious. Points for effort but honestly where on earth did you get that? Basically you just invented two definitions that don't have any widespread acceptance and then applied them to suit your arguement.
So basically everyone that called themself a communist wasn't really, that's your arguement in a nutshell. |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets. "
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning? |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning? "
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying. |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying. "
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist? |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?"
I'm rapidly regretting giving you any credit for intelligence.
|
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? "
It's a label he gave himself 
He said he is a marxist. I fail to see the difference between a marxist and a communist but feel free to educate me? |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?
I'm rapidly regretting giving you any credit for intelligence.
"
You could just explain the difference? I'm growing in conviction that far left beliefs can only be maintained by mainpulating the semantics past any constant definition. |
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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? "
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example... |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? "
it always boils down to name calling when they start losing, be calling you a mugwump next. |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? it always boils down to name calling when they start losing, be calling you a mugwump next."
It's not name calling to refer to someone by a label they assigned themself |
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"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? it always boils down to name calling when they start losing, be calling you a mugwump next.
It's not name calling to refer to someone by a label they assigned themself "
im sure May wont be foolish enough to call herself a dictator. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"This whole debate is rather spurious.
The current Labour manifesto is mildly left of centre - if they fulfilled all the promises in it, we would have a system like Some European countries and Scandinavia.
People who think that either Corbyn is a Communist are either idiots or saying it for the rection it gets.
He calls himself a marxist. One what planet is a marxist not a communist? Marx was the guy who wrote the communist fanifesto. Do all far left arguements involve twisting the semantics past any regognisable meaning?
I think you know that the two are not the same thing. I credit you with more intelligence than you are currently displaying.
Ok so the guy who wrote the communist manifesto wasn't a communist?
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels? it always boils down to name calling when they start losing, be calling you a mugwump next.
It's not name calling to refer to someone by a label they assigned themself im sure May wont be foolish enough to call herself a dictator."
But you are? |
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"Just a quick reminder.
The Tories are still 20% in front. "
No comrade, that's just a right wing conspiracy from 'the establishment' which is why I've bet my house on corbyn winning at 14-1 odds like all the other true believers on this thread. |
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"Just a quick reminder.
The Tories are still 20% in front.
No comrade, that's just a right wing conspiracy from 'the establishment' which is why I've bet my house on corbyn winning at 14-1 odds like all the other true believers on this thread. "
youll thank me jun 9 |
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I'm not a corbynite but it just makes sense.
It's just not working with all these cuts.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world and we can't even fix a pot hole.
About time to try something new. |
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now lets see all these communist countries that have state energy. now theres finland, norway, netherlands, texas, india, france etc hate to live in one of those communist countries.
how about all those commie countries that have state owned railways france, germany, italy, etc etc.
|
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"I'm not a corbynite but it just makes sense.
It's just not working with all these cuts.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world and we can't even fix a pot hole.
About time to try something new. "
There's nothing remotely new about these ideas. The pledges could be summarised as "let's reinvent the 70's". |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'm not a corbynite but it just makes sense.
It's just not working with all these cuts.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world and we can't even fix a pot hole.
About time to try something new.
There's nothing remotely new about these ideas. The pledges could be summarised as "let's reinvent the 70's". "
seeing as how the torys are taking us back to georgian/victorian times then the 70's would be fucking massive step up |
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"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels?
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example... "
I struggle with the concept of government company's competing with private businesses. Surely the answer is to actually give the regulator teeth as opposed to creating a hybrid business?
Equally I struggle with adding £2bn to care budgets and cutting studant loan costs by £12bn. If I chose one, it would be keep the loans and pay for care!
The Labour manifesto just isn't costed, it is a wish list, a hope list and an I hope I can con the electorate list...  |
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Seems like car crash interviews/speeches are turning into a bit of a motorway pile up for Labour.
Apparently McDonnell doesn't know the size of the deficit (sky remote anyone ) and Dianne Abbott (again) ridiculed by the police federation. She couldn't even walk off without getting lost. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago?
But people were tortured, killed and went missing. It was a dictatorship backed by capitalist funds to create a capitalist economy in Chile. Sounds a bit more barbaric than 250 years ago.
Chile isn't really a good example of capitalism though, capitalism can't work properly in a dictatorship. "
Chile had a Marxist president. Nationalised the copper and taking away from the American companies. Had a good economy then. After the dictaroship, now Chile has the biggest economy in South America. Privatisation of the national resources but a big difference between poor and rich. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Communist class war bullshit.
To be honest anyone who supports this shit probably deserves a Corbynista government and then deal with (and suffer) the consequences for decades afterwards.
Do you lefties never learn?
They prefer to re-write history than learn from it
History shows that for capitalism to survive and prosper you need the oppression of the poor. Check out "Chicago Boys" in Chile. This isn't a left vs right. Its far bigger.
As a son of a lefty who was tortured for wanting education to be a necessity not a luxury. I think we have a lot to learn in history.
The oppression of the poor narrative is based on a zero sum fallacy. Would you seriously suggest the poor are worse off noe than they were 250 years ago?
But people were tortured, killed and went missing. It was a dictatorship backed by capitalist funds to create a capitalist economy in Chile. Sounds a bit more barbaric than 250 years ago.
Maybe but tell that to a Venezuelan. Oh and that is happening TODAY.
Communism/Socialism (give it whatever name tag you like) KILLS."
You're meant to say capitalism kills socialism. Don't blame murder on your ideology that got you killed. Stop blaming the victims. |
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"I'm not a corbynite but it just makes sense.
It's just not working with all these cuts.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world and we can't even fix a pot hole.
About time to try something new.
There's nothing remotely new about these ideas. The pledges could be summarised as "let's reinvent the 70's". "
You could say that if, like the Daily Mail, you have no grasp of what the manifesto actually says. |
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"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels?
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example...
I struggle with the concept of government company's competing with private businesses. Surely the answer is to actually give the regulator teeth as opposed to creating a hybrid business?
Equally I struggle with adding £2bn to care budgets and cutting studant loan costs by £12bn. If I chose one, it would be keep the loans and pay for care!
The Labour manifesto just isn't costed, it is a wish list, a hope list and an I hope I can con the electorate list... "
Not costed? Try reading the costing document that was published alongside the manifesto |
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"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels?
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example...
I struggle with the concept of government company's competing with private businesses. Surely the answer is to actually give the regulator teeth as opposed to creating a hybrid business?
Equally I struggle with adding £2bn to care budgets and cutting studant loan costs by £12bn. If I chose one, it would be keep the loans and pay for care!
The Labour manifesto just isn't costed, it is a wish list, a hope list and an I hope I can con the electorate list...
Not costed? Try reading the costing document that was published alongside the manifesto"
If McDonnell can't be arsed then why should anyone else? |
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"JMcD says he didn't have time to cost it all as the election is too soon... ffs  "
Maybe he's too busy reading his little red book? That is when he's not throwing it over the dispatch box in the house of commons. |
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"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels?
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example...
I struggle with the concept of government company's competing with private businesses. Surely the answer is to actually give the regulator teeth as opposed to creating a hybrid business?
Equally I struggle with adding £2bn to care budgets and cutting studant loan costs by £12bn. If I chose one, it would be keep the loans and pay for care!
The Labour manifesto just isn't costed, it is a wish list, a hope list and an I hope I can con the electorate list...
Not costed? Try reading the costing document that was published alongside the manifesto"
Would that be the one that wants to put up Corp tax? Rather than raise more money it would have the opposite effect and you would get the rich moving money overseas to avoid the tax hike. Also hitting people earning over £80,000 per year with more tax, that includes Doctors and head teachers at a time when the nhs and education need all the Doctors and teachers they can get so Labours proposals would give less incentive for more doctors and teachers to get into the profession. Labour really haven't thought the whole thing through, the Labour manifesto is just a pie in the sky wish list which they would not be able to deliver on. |
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"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels?
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example...
I struggle with the concept of government company's competing with private businesses. Surely the answer is to actually give the regulator teeth as opposed to creating a hybrid business?
Equally I struggle with adding £2bn to care budgets and cutting studant loan costs by £12bn. If I chose one, it would be keep the loans and pay for care!
The Labour manifesto just isn't costed, it is a wish list, a hope list and an I hope I can con the electorate list... "
There's nothing inherently wrong with state companies competing against private ones. Technically it's supposed to happen today in the form of a public-private sector comparative analysis whereby major project can only be awarded to private contractors where it's shown it would be cheaper than the government manging the project themselves. |
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When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out! |
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"When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out! "
Yep. Just like the 70's in hock to the IMF. Then history repeated itself again after Brown had flogged the gold to fund Saint Tony's spending spree, spent all the money the Tories had built up through the 80's and early 90's and then lumbered the next government with PFI.
Vote Labour? My arse. |
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"When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out! "
That was just a milder repeat of the 70's when inflation hit double digits, they had three day working weeks, energy blackouts and shit all over the streets. |
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"When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out!
Yep. Just like the 70's in hock to the IMF. Then history repeated itself again after Brown had flogged the gold to fund Saint Tony's spending spree, spent all the money the Tories had built up through the 80's and early 90's and then lumbered the next government with PFI.
Vote Labour? My arse. "
Snap
The problem with socialism is you always run out of other peoples money |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out!
Yep. Just like the 70's in hock to the IMF. Then history repeated itself again after Brown had flogged the gold to fund Saint Tony's spending spree, spent all the money the Tories had built up through the 80's and early 90's and then lumbered the next government with PFI.
Vote Labour? My arse.
Snap
The problem with socialism is you always run out of other peoples money"
Of course capitalism never runs out if money. |
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"When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out!
That was just a milder repeat of the 70's when inflation hit double digits, they had three day working weeks, energy blackouts and shit all over the streets. "
Dead bodies also piling up at morgues and cemeteries that were not being buried. I hope Corbyn's 1970's dream stays firmly in the past. |
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That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending. |
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"When the last Labour govt was leaving power, a note was left for the incoming treasury minister that sad basically "all the money is gone".
The Tories have had to make cuts, can you imagine what another spell of a Labour govt would do, especially the Corbyn economy effect, we' d be a third world economy going to the rest of the world to bail us out!
Yep. Just like the 70's in hock to the IMF. Then history repeated itself again after Brown had flogged the gold to fund Saint Tony's spending spree, spent all the money the Tories had built up through the 80's and early 90's and then lumbered the next government with PFI.
Vote Labour? My arse.
Snap
The problem with socialism is you always run out of other peoples moneyOf course capitalism never runs out if money. "
Capitalism sometimes does (but not very often) Socialism ALWAYS does. |
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"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending. "
What is the alternative to paying your debts? |
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"
I like how you ignore the point about this manifesto not being much different to what you'd get in Scandinavia, in order to focus on what Corbyn calls himself. Surely the policies matter more than labels?
I did notice there is a lot of slamming the man, but not so much slamming of the policies....
it is more "social democratic" than i thought it would be.... and in a way maybe for the sake of party unity the corbyn wing have been dragged not as far left...
for example... because most rail franchises at at most 5 to 7 years long, those that do expire can easily me absorved back into a national network...
state owned energy company competing against private companies works in germany for example... "
It's very difficult to prove a future event won't happen since we have limited knowledge of physics, neurobiology and even less knowledge of social sciences.
It is a fact that we have the largest peacetime national deficit since WW1. In my opinion all this manifesto really says is spend, spend, spend.
So i just don't think he can afford it and it will make our problems worse. If you look at our debt to GDP ratio, it's as high as it normally goes for this country, i simply don't think he'll collect the extra tax from 'the rich / the establishment / the little pot of gold at the end of mayfair'. If that happens then it'll be the third time labour screw up the economy and blame everyone else. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending. "
Fucking hell, are you Jeremy Corbyn |
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"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending.
What is the alternative to paying your debts? "
Paying them over a longer period of time. |
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"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending.
Fucking hell, are you Jeremy Corbyn "
I voted against Jeremy Corbyn twice. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending.
What is the alternative to paying your debts?
Paying them over a longer period of time. "
Makes sense.Fuck austerity. |
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"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending.
What is the alternative to paying your debts?
Paying them over a longer period of time. "
Which incurs more interest which is already the governments 5th biggest expenditure. |
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"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending.
What is the alternative to paying your debts?
Paying them over a longer period of time. "
That would be a long period of time then. The tories have found that the Labour manifesto has a £58 billion black hole in it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That bleeding note. I just wish he didn't leave that note. Right wing press been spouting on about that for years.
There was a global financial crash.
Global.
Not the labour governments fault.
Sub prime mortgages and banks.
And they got bailed out.
We're the 5th largest economy in the world.
Conservatives haven't met a deficit target.
Anyway 50billion deficit is nothing in real terms.
USA China Japan France and Germany all have more debt than us.
There is no need for this austerity. We should be spending.
What is the alternative to paying your debts?
Paying them over a longer period of time.
That would be a long period of time then. The tories have found that the Labour manifesto has a £58 billion black hole in it. "
Brexit has a similar black hole in it.Can we pay that back over 25 years or so please. |
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