FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > The Corporation Money Tax Tree
The Corporation Money Tax Tree
Jump to: Newest in thread
 |
By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
Labour's Jack Dromey was on Politics Today talking about financing Labour's Education Policy.
Plans are for Labour to raise Corporation Tax to 26% to finance this.
When the USA is planning to bring theirs down to 15%, and Ireland at 12.5%, then is this a good idea?
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
 |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
Theres little point in looking at what the US tax rate might be. Trump has to show that he can actually get it done before its actually a factor and its debateable if he will. And how much will the US tax rate effect British business? Probably not that much.
The competition will be with other EU countries. And if the UK wants to charge a premium thats fine as long as they can provide something worth while and a highly educated workforce is something that will drive UK business and encourage more investment in the UK. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
"
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Guess what would get the blame when lots of firms leave the UK  "
So you are happy that the likes of Starbucks get the benefit of taxpayer-funded services such as the fire service if one of their shops catches fire, get the benefit of taxpayer-funded healthcare for their staff, get the benefit of taxpayer-funded street cleaning, refuse collection, police (if they get robbed) etc, etc but those companies shouldn't be made to pay their fair share? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"Guess what would get the blame when lots of firms leave the UK
So you are happy that the likes of Starbucks get the benefit of taxpayer-funded services such as the fire service if one of their shops catches fire, get the benefit of taxpayer-funded healthcare for their staff, get the benefit of taxpayer-funded street cleaning, refuse collection, police (if they get robbed) etc, etc but those companies shouldn't be made to pay their fair share?"
These companies will pay business rates which will go towards street cleaning, refuse collection, police etc, much the same way that British companies operating overseas will. The same British companies that will be able to mitigate their tax bills overseas in the same way that Starbucks etc do here.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. "
.
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?"
Facebook's European HQ is in Dublin. How do you propose to ban them from the UK? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
"
On 1 January 1973 the UK joined the European Economic Community and as a consequence Purchase Tax was replaced by Value Added Tax on 1 April 1973.The Conservative Chancellor Lord Barber set a single VAT rate (10%) on most goods and services.
In July 1974, Labour Chancellor Denis Healey reduced the standard rate of VAT from 10% to 8% but introduced a new higher rate of 12.5% for petrol and some luxury goods. In November 1974, Healey doubled the higher rate of VAT to 25%. Healey reduced the higher rate back to 12.5% in April 1976
Under EU law, the standard rate of VAT in any EU state cannot be lower than 15%. Each state may have up to two reduced rates of at least 5% for a restricted list of goods and services. The European Council must approve any temporary reduction of VAT in the public interest.
If companies couldn't claim vat back, it would hit the consumer, I.e. you. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based."
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?"
Yes the world is vastly different to 1976, vastly better. The only people who want to go back to that are dinosaur ideologues.
Having corportation tax high creates perverse incentives and stock market bubbles. Given that a healthy stock market is in the interest of everyone with a pension, most of us then, the looney left should really understand the impact of high corporation tax.
There are two reasons anyone buys shares. Either they want to sell the share for a higher price (speculation) or they want dividends from future profits. In my opinion dividend yielding companies are far more appealing to our economy. But if companies pay 26% CT before dividends can be sent out, then the recipient's of dividends pay 40-50% tax on the income from the dividend then thats a very tax inefficient way of the company returning money to the shareholder. Which means they won't do it and people will just speculate on the short term value of shares that might rise. What could possibly go wrong  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Yes the world is vastly different to 1976, vastly better. The only people who want to go back to that are dinosaur ideologues.
Having corportation tax high creates perverse incentives and stock market bubbles. Given that a healthy stock market is in the interest of everyone with a pension, most of us then, the looney left should really understand the impact of high corporation tax.
There are two reasons anyone buys shares. Either they want to sell the share for a higher price (speculation) or they want dividends from future profits. In my opinion dividend yielding companies are far more appealing to our economy. But if companies pay 26% CT before dividends can be sent out, then the recipient's of dividends pay 40-50% tax on the income from the dividend then thats a very tax inefficient way of the company returning money to the shareholder. Which means they won't do it and people will just speculate on the short term value of shares that might rise. What could possibly go wrong "
Good post.  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK. "
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK. "
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
"
But we already have a transaction tax.
Last time I looked it was called VAT. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
"
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need. "
I agree with you. In addition there would be a surge in inflation as companies added the tax to their goods, which eventually would be passed on to the end consumer. Goods involved in long supply chains would be impacted by compound rises.
So what would happen to all the untaxed profits? No doubt they would be distributed to shareholders, so the poorer in society would bear the cost whilst the shareholders would benefit. And before any one jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not a socialist. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need.
I agree with you. In addition there would be a surge in inflation as companies added the tax to their goods, which eventually would be passed on to the end consumer. Goods involved in long supply chains would be impacted by compound rises.
So what would happen to all the untaxed profits? No doubt they would be distributed to shareholders, so the poorer in society would bear the cost whilst the shareholders would benefit. And before any one jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not a socialist."
I'm not a socialist either but i have a radical idea - make companies pay the fecking tax they owe now. It's really not that difficult you just need multi-national government cooperation. I know our politicians loath having to actually work with people outside their party but not every issue can be solved within the borders of our little island. The worlds second largest economy, soon to be first, doesn't have this problem. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Facebook's European HQ is in Dublin. How do you propose to ban them from the UK?"
.
Dunno how do they do it in China! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Also this bubble in the stock market caused by a high ct rate, could it be any fecking worse than this current one?.
The earnings ratio is collapsing while shares soar, were in the biggest bubble ever seen, corporation have had everything given to them on a plate for 40 years yet if somebody dares have the cheek to say they need to pay more!! Fuck.. Its the end of the world.
Nobody minds saying I have to pay more, nobody minds saying Vat has to go up, nobody minds saying national insurance has to go up... But heavens above don't mention corporations paying more!
Meet the new boss.. Same as the old boss |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Also this bubble in the stock market caused by a high ct rate, could it be any fecking worse than this current one?.
The earnings ratio is collapsing while shares soar, were in the biggest bubble ever seen, corporation have had everything given to them on a plate for 40 years yet if somebody dares have the cheek to say they need to pay more!! Fuck.. Its the end of the world.
Nobody minds saying I have to pay more, nobody minds saying Vat has to go up, nobody minds saying national insurance has to go up... But heavens above don't mention corporations paying more!
Meet the new boss.. Same as the old boss "
Yes it's considerably worse.
The current 'bubble' is in no small part thanks to those anemic interest rates thats you are so fond of and the ones that can't possibly go up to 5.5%.
If bonds are a waste of time buying and interest rates are nothing then it's not surprising it piles into shares.
Governments who borrowed money need to pay it back, interest rates need to rise and CT should be 15-20% but paid, not dodged. We just live in fiscal la la land at the moment with idiot politicians whose strategy is to pray that scientists can invent the money tree. I have to say that socrates predicted this would happen. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need. "
So you dismiss an idea rather than work it through?
The issue is how we deal with multinationals and if making their goods more expensive than locally produced, delivered and sold - is that such a bad thing?
Why would you object to a few pence more on an Amazon product or a Starbucks coffee if you knew it was going to the Treasury? They already make vast profits and don't pay CT so the argument that we shouldn't take a transaction tax off them because they make a large profit is illogical.
It is not beyond the means of HMRC to classify businesses according to their origination and domicility and prepare a tax schedule accordingly. Placing a transaction tax requirement on Companies that avoid paying CT through domiciliation or transfer pricing will make their products more expensive and less competitive and those that do continue to sell will have no option but to be contributing to the Treasury.
Saying that it won't work is just defeatist. If you want to take money if creative cunts, you have to be a better creative cunt then them. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need.
So you dismiss an idea rather than work it through?
The issue is how we deal with multinationals and if making their goods more expensive than locally produced, delivered and sold - is that such a bad thing?
Why would you object to a few pence more on an Amazon product or a Starbucks coffee if you knew it was going to the Treasury? They already make vast profits and don't pay CT so the argument that we shouldn't take a transaction tax off them because they make a large profit is illogical.
It is not beyond the means of HMRC to classify businesses according to their origination and domicility and prepare a tax schedule accordingly. Placing a transaction tax requirement on Companies that avoid paying CT through domiciliation or transfer pricing will make their products more expensive and less competitive and those that do continue to sell will have no option but to be contributing to the Treasury.
Saying that it won't work is just defeatist. If you want to take money if creative cunts, you have to be a better creative cunt then them."
No more defeatist than pretending we couldn't make the current system work. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Facebook's European HQ is in Dublin. How do you propose to ban them from the UK?.
Dunno how do they do it in China!"
Basically they have a meeting where it's politely explained to them that if you don't do what the government says then your company will not trade in china. Hence no google, no facebook, no YouTube and life goes on... |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need.
So you dismiss an idea rather than work it through?
The issue is how we deal with multinationals and if making their goods more expensive than locally produced, delivered and sold - is that such a bad thing?
Why would you object to a few pence more on an Amazon product or a Starbucks coffee if you knew it was going to the Treasury? They already make vast profits and don't pay CT so the argument that we shouldn't take a transaction tax off them because they make a large profit is illogical.
It is not beyond the means of HMRC to classify businesses according to their origination and domicility and prepare a tax schedule accordingly. Placing a transaction tax requirement on Companies that avoid paying CT through domiciliation or transfer pricing will make their products more expensive and less competitive and those that do continue to sell will have no option but to be contributing to the Treasury.
Saying that it won't work is just defeatist. If you want to take money if creative cunts, you have to be a better creative cunt then them.
No more defeatist than pretending we couldn't make the current system work. "
The definition of insanity is to try to change an outcome by doing the same thing and expecting something different.
The UK has the ability to act autonomously and independently TODAY and change its tax code to clobber the multi nationals. The UK also has the ability to continue working with the rest of the world to make CT more collectible and more transparent internationally. Once that happens, the UK has the ability to remove/adapt and further amend its tax codes.
I mean, they change every year anyway so it is not as if it would be hard. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Facebook's European HQ is in Dublin. How do you propose to ban them from the UK?.
Dunno how do they do it in China!
Basically they have a meeting where it's politely explained to them that if you don't do what the government says then your company will not trade in china. Hence no google, no facebook, no YouTube and life goes on... "
I'm a big fan of the Chinese economic model and approach to buisness .They lifted a billion humans out of poverty and this century belongs to them. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Of course Starbucks are not breaking the law and is it not their staff who pay for the services they use? What about employers NI contributions? Would you be happier if Starbucks were not in this country and all there employees were on the dole? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need.
So you dismiss an idea rather than work it through?
The issue is how we deal with multinationals and if making their goods more expensive than locally produced, delivered and sold - is that such a bad thing?
Why would you object to a few pence more on an Amazon product or a Starbucks coffee if you knew it was going to the Treasury? They already make vast profits and don't pay CT so the argument that we shouldn't take a transaction tax off them because they make a large profit is illogical.
It is not beyond the means of HMRC to classify businesses according to their origination and domicility and prepare a tax schedule accordingly. Placing a transaction tax requirement on Companies that avoid paying CT through domiciliation or transfer pricing will make their products more expensive and less competitive and those that do continue to sell will have no option but to be contributing to the Treasury.
Saying that it won't work is just defeatist. If you want to take money if creative cunts, you have to be a better creative cunt then them.
No more defeatist than pretending we couldn't make the current system work.
The definition of insanity is to try to change an outcome by doing the same thing and expecting something different.
The UK has the ability to act autonomously and independently TODAY and change its tax code to clobber the multi nationals. The UK also has the ability to continue working with the rest of the world to make CT more collectible and more transparent internationally. Once that happens, the UK has the ability to remove/adapt and further amend its tax codes.
I mean, they change every year anyway so it is not as if it would be hard."
In principle yes. Britain could up its tax rates and clobber the multinationals.
However it just won't work. The clue is in the name "multinational"
Of course an Irish registered company can trade in the UK and they will pay their VAT bill and all the dues and demands for employees and property in the UK. So to say that these company's pay no tax isn't quite true.
Tax on company profit is a completely different animal, and as it stands at the moment, is paid in the country of registration.
All that "clobering" the multinationals would do is to drive British registered company's that DO pay their corporation tax in the UK offshore.
As you said in your earlier post. Corporation tax is not fit for purpose in the 21st century. However your "transaction tax" is no more than a VAT increase. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Also this bubble in the stock market caused by a high ct rate, could it be any fecking worse than this current one?.
The earnings ratio is collapsing while shares soar, were in the biggest bubble ever seen, corporation have had everything given to them on a plate for 40 years yet if somebody dares have the cheek to say they need to pay more!! Fuck.. Its the end of the world.
Nobody minds saying I have to pay more, nobody minds saying Vat has to go up, nobody minds saying national insurance has to go up... But heavens above don't mention corporations paying more!
Meet the new boss.. Same as the old boss
Yes it's considerably worse.
The current 'bubble' is in no small part thanks to those anemic interest rates thats you are so fond of and the ones that can't possibly go up to 5.5%.
If bonds are a waste of time buying and interest rates are nothing then it's not surprising it piles into shares.
Governments who borrowed money need to pay it back, interest rates need to rise and CT should be 15-20% but paid, not dodged. We just live in fiscal la la land at the moment with idiot politicians whose strategy is to pray that scientists can invent the money tree. I have to say that socrates predicted this would happen. "
.
I actually agree with everything you just said. I'm no fan of nirp and zirp, its an incredibly stupid model to follow, my point was they will follow it because they have boxed themselves into a corner and have nowhere left to go! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Also this bubble in the stock market caused by a high ct rate, could it be any fecking worse than this current one?.
The earnings ratio is collapsing while shares soar, were in the biggest bubble ever seen, corporation have had everything given to them on a plate for 40 years yet if somebody dares have the cheek to say they need to pay more!! Fuck.. Its the end of the world.
Nobody minds saying I have to pay more, nobody minds saying Vat has to go up, nobody minds saying national insurance has to go up... But heavens above don't mention corporations paying more!
Meet the new boss.. Same as the old boss
Yes it's considerably worse.
The current 'bubble' is in no small part thanks to those anemic interest rates thats you are so fond of and the ones that can't possibly go up to 5.5%.
If bonds are a waste of time buying and interest rates are nothing then it's not surprising it piles into shares.
Governments who borrowed money need to pay it back, interest rates need to rise and CT should be 15-20% but paid, not dodged. We just live in fiscal la la land at the moment with idiot politicians whose strategy is to pray that scientists can invent the money tree. I have to say that socrates predicted this would happen. .
I actually agree with everything you just said. I'm no fan of nirp and zirp, its an incredibly stupid model to follow, my point was they will follow it because they have boxed themselves into a corner and have nowhere left to go!"
But what next? For all our austerity the national debt has gone up not down and interest rates literally cannot get lower. All the usual tools of managing the economy have been used (interest rates, QE, stimulus packages) and we still have a mountain of debt and tiny growth. Even the ability to have the next 9 years look like the last (not exactly a fun time) is predicated on the assumption interest rates won't rise significantly. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Of course Starbucks are not breaking the law and is it not their staff who pay for the services they use? What about employers NI contributions? Would you be happier if Starbucks were not in this country and all there employees were on the dole?"
Legal behaviour is not the same as moral behaviour |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Facebook's European HQ is in Dublin. How do you propose to ban them from the UK?.
Dunno how do they do it in China!
Basically they have a meeting where it's politely explained to them that if you don't do what the government says then your company will not trade in china. Hence no google, no facebook, no YouTube and life goes on... I'm a big fan of the Chinese economic model and approach to buisness .They lifted a billion humans out of poverty and this century belongs to them. "
There are lots of things i don't like about china and there's a reason i don't live there. But they don't have the same problems we do. They don't have problems that originate with spineless or stupid politicians. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Simple solution.
Corporation Tax is essentially unfit for purpose in the 21st Century and should be abolished forthwith and replaced with a transaction tax.
This would effectively collect tax from all people, companies and corporations that undertake business with a person or entity in the U.K. It would not even be difficult to organise
A general 2% transaction tax would be infinitely more collectible than on a tax based on declared profits of companies that are uk based.
A 2% transaction tax would increase the cost of most essential goods that are sold in low margin industries (e.g. food retailing) whilst increasing the profits of businesses with high profitability and low fixed costs (e.g. banking). Hardly what I'd want to promote for the UK.
So a Company pays Corporation Tax based on its annual accounts and the profit that it has made. This is great in a traditional market where a company and its consumers are located in the same jurisdiction.
The world is no longer like this. It would be far more beneficial and easier to collect if Corporation Tax was abolished and every transaction was subject to a much smaller tax at the point of sale and that tax was collected by the seller. That way every Amazon order, every Facebook ad, every Starbucks coffee sold etc would have at least some contribution to the Treasury.
I'm not disputing a transaction tax is easier to collect, it is. I'm point out that business models like supermarkets would suffer the most since their entire model is to rotate their stock as quickly as possible (i.e. make transactions) over a fixed shop floor space. Supermarkets only make 4-6% net margin anyway so a transaction tax would basically force them to push up prices.
It seems it would punish companies that actually have fixed assets, which are usually the ones producing something we really need.
So you dismiss an idea rather than work it through?
The issue is how we deal with multinationals and if making their goods more expensive than locally produced, delivered and sold - is that such a bad thing?
Why would you object to a few pence more on an Amazon product or a Starbucks coffee if you knew it was going to the Treasury? They already make vast profits and don't pay CT so the argument that we shouldn't take a transaction tax off them because they make a large profit is illogical.
It is not beyond the means of HMRC to classify businesses according to their origination and domicility and prepare a tax schedule accordingly. Placing a transaction tax requirement on Companies that avoid paying CT through domiciliation or transfer pricing will make their products more expensive and less competitive and those that do continue to sell will have no option but to be contributing to the Treasury.
Saying that it won't work is just defeatist. If you want to take money if creative cunts, you have to be a better creative cunt then them.
No more defeatist than pretending we couldn't make the current system work.
The definition of insanity is to try to change an outcome by doing the same thing and expecting something different.
The UK has the ability to act autonomously and independently TODAY and change its tax code to clobber the multi nationals. The UK also has the ability to continue working with the rest of the world to make CT more collectible and more transparent internationally. Once that happens, the UK has the ability to remove/adapt and further amend its tax codes.
I mean, they change every year anyway so it is not as if it would be hard."
So could we abolish VAT then? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Yes the world is vastly different to 1976, vastly better. The only people who want to go back to that are dinosaur ideologues.
Having corportation tax high creates perverse incentives and stock market bubbles. Given that a healthy stock market is in the interest of everyone with a pension, most of us then, the looney left should really understand the impact of high corporation tax.
There are two reasons anyone buys shares. Either they want to sell the share for a higher price (speculation) or they want dividends from future profits. In my opinion dividend yielding companies are far more appealing to our economy. But if companies pay 26% CT before dividends can be sent out, then the recipient's of dividends pay 40-50% tax on the income from the dividend then thats a very tax inefficient way of the company returning money to the shareholder. Which means they won't do it and people will just speculate on the short term value of shares that might rise. What could possibly go wrong "
Well if they put the extra tax raised from increased corporation tax into state pensions wouldnt that solve your issue with it? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"1976 basic tax rate for me would have been 36 and believe it or not practically no vat!
Corporate tax rate 52%.
2017.
Basic tax rate 20%
Vat 20%
Corporate tax rate 19%.
I can't claim vat back
Companies can.
.
I wish I was in greenall Whitley land where beer was cold and tax was low except for companies that made a fucking fortune.
In 1976, there were two bands of VAT. Standard rate was 8% and Luxury goods were 25%.
The world has vastly changed since 1976 and major corporations are now global. If the UK imposed corporation tax rates of 52% again, the companies would simply base their operations elsewhere, such as the Republic of Ireland which has a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. .
Thats called having the bollocks to tell them to fuck off.
Facebook don't wanna pay 26% CT tell them to do one, no more Facebook in the UK.
Somebody else will fill the void, that's the very essence of capitalism! Don't you agree?
Yes the world is vastly different to 1976, vastly better. The only people who want to go back to that are dinosaur ideologues.
Having corportation tax high creates perverse incentives and stock market bubbles. Given that a healthy stock market is in the interest of everyone with a pension, most of us then, the looney left should really understand the impact of high corporation tax.
There are two reasons anyone buys shares. Either they want to sell the share for a higher price (speculation) or they want dividends from future profits. In my opinion dividend yielding companies are far more appealing to our economy. But if companies pay 26% CT before dividends can be sent out, then the recipient's of dividends pay 40-50% tax on the income from the dividend then thats a very tax inefficient way of the company returning money to the shareholder. Which means they won't do it and people will just speculate on the short term value of shares that might rise. What could possibly go wrong
Well if they put the extra tax raised from increased corporation tax into state pensions wouldnt that solve your issue with it?"
Not really, I'm talking about the propensity for bubbles and crashes. Ordinarily i wouldn't care about idiots losing their money but it's started to concern me since taxpayers started bailing them out for reasons that have never been fully explained. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Not really, I'm talking about the propensity for bubbles and crashes. Ordinarily i wouldn't care about idiots losing their money but it's started to concern me since taxpayers started bailing them out for reasons that have never been fully explained."
Because they bankroll election campaigns and wont do it unless they're looked after.
Easiest way to avoid bubbles and crashes is to put in a tax on every trade of a share. A relatively tiny 1% tax on the value of traded shares could raise £850m+ per year for the UK. And it would put a cost on the speculation that leads to bubbles and crashes. Once theres a cost to trading it will have to be a more considered decision. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Not really, I'm talking about the propensity for bubbles and crashes. Ordinarily i wouldn't care about idiots losing their money but it's started to concern me since taxpayers started bailing them out for reasons that have never been fully explained.
Because they bankroll election campaigns and wont do it unless they're looked after.
Easiest way to avoid bubbles and crashes is to put in a tax on every trade of a share. A relatively tiny 1% tax on the value of traded shares could raise £850m+ per year for the UK. And it would put a cost on the speculation that leads to bubbles and crashes. Once theres a cost to trading it will have to be a more considered decision."
But every trade already has a transaction cost so I'm not sure it would have the full effect you are saying but i did like the principle behind it. I do think too much short term instutitonal ownership of companies is toxic for capitalism. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
» Add a new message to this topic
