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If the SNP don't win as many seats
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"only policy? i guess some people haven't bothered reading the snp manifesto summary then " Really ? So i take it subsidising uni places ,prescription charges free school meals for primary school kids ,the hated bedroom tax ,helping ppl who have been sanctioned with housing benefit so they arent evicted ,bus passes for the over 60s and many others out of their budget thats why the snp are so popular among scots voters they actually care about ordinary ppl and long may it continue | |||
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"the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases." For mental health?  | |||
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"the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases. For mental health? "explain | |||
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"the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases." Explain | |||
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"I thought they won all the seats except one last time ?" All except 3.... 1 Tory 1 lib dem 1 labour | |||
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"Isn't the use of brexit as justification for another referendum a bit moot? An independent Scotland wouldn't have been a member anyway and unless fudging of Greek proportions went on, they'd not fit the criteria either."  | |||
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"Gone a bit off topic. If the SNP lose a significant number of seats that's surely a sign to Nicola that we don't like what she's doing? " By winning 56 seats last time it obviously told her the majority do like what she is doing . Time will tell , but i honestly cant see snp losing many . Local elections on 4th will maybe give some indication on which way scotland will head. | |||
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"the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases. Explain " i'll say it slowly ... so you undertand .... the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases .... if you still don't understand i could say it again for you louder  | |||
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"It seems to me that the SNP have only one aim, Scotish independence at all costs. Sadly for the majority of Scots, should they acheive it, they will then have the veil of Scotish Nationalism lifted from their eyes and finally get to see what a mess the SNP have made of running their country to date. By then of course it will be too late but i do wish them luck as they are a great nation. " I'm sorry, but in what way do you see the SNP making a mess of running Scotland? I think you may be falling into the trap of believing everything you read in the pro-unionist press or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Unless you live and work in Scotland,(and I'm guessing you don't) the only way you can evaluate the success or failure of the Holyrood Government is from what you see and read in the media. Let me tell you that there are many hundreds of thousands of Scots happy with the way the SNP run things. Why else would we turn out in such large numbers and vote for them? Of course, there are many SNP supporters that want independence but there are also many who don't. The SNP is not just about independence despite what you may see and read. They're also about a fairer, more just and tolerant society. Don't believe everything that's put out by the pro-unionist press. | |||
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"It seems to me that the SNP have only one aim, Scotish independence at all costs. Sadly for the majority of Scots, should they acheive it, they will then have the veil of Scotish Nationalism lifted from their eyes and finally get to see what a mess the SNP have made of running their country to date. By then of course it will be too late but i do wish them luck as they are a great nation. I'm sorry, but in what way do you see the SNP making a mess of running Scotland? I think you may be falling into the trap of believing everything you read in the pro-unionist press or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Unless you live and work in Scotland,(and I'm guessing you don't) the only way you can evaluate the success or failure of the Holyrood Government is from what you see and read in the media. Let me tell you that there are many hundreds of thousands of Scots happy with the way the SNP run things. Why else would we turn out in such large numbers and vote for them? Of course, there are many SNP supporters that want independence but there are also many who don't. The SNP is not just about independence despite what you may see and read. They're also about a fairer, more just and tolerant society. Don't believe everything that's put out by the pro-unionist press. " well said | |||
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"I see this is the way the Tories have narrated this election - if SNP lose even one seat, that means we have to give up on independence problem is the SNP do have a mandate from the people who elected them on their 2015 and 2016 manifesto's why should they be ignored that is very undemocratic. Lets say the SNP do lose seats they will still end up with the majority of seats in Scotland i suppose people think that counts for bugger all now ? I dont see anyone saying if the Tories lose seats that brexit should be took off the table. Now what if SNP gain seats will people accept that indpendence cant be blocked ? " at the end of the day holyrood has already voted for indy ref 2 that wont change ...its westminster MPs that are changing not holyrood MPs ..so regardless how many or few snp MPs reside at westminster that vote result in holyrood still stands  | |||
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"the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases. Explain i'll say it slowly ... so you undertand .... the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases .... if you still don't understand i could say it again for you louder "Repeating your answer isn't giving us the facts though! Why do they need increasing? What mechanisms are in place to do it? | |||
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"I see this is the way the Tories have narrated this election - if SNP lose even one seat, that means we have to give up on independence problem is the SNP do have a mandate from the people who elected them on their 2015 and 2016 manifesto's why should they be ignored that is very undemocratic. Lets say the SNP do lose seats they will still end up with the majority of seats in Scotland i suppose people think that counts for bugger all now ? I dont see anyone saying if the Tories lose seats that brexit should be took off the table. Now what if SNP gain seats will people accept that indpendence cant be blocked ? at the end of the day holyrood has already voted for indy ref 2 that wont change ...its westminster MPs that are changing not holyrood MPs ..so regardless how many or few snp MPs reside at westminster that vote result in holyrood still stands "Yeah that is a very good point Holyrood had the vote on a section 30 order and passed thats a mandate for a new independence referendum. Its interesting on how the pro union side are trying to paint this Scottish council elections and this GE election that a vote for them and any seats lost for the SNP is killing independence off and trying to ignoring the Holyrood vote Also interesting to note for all the people in England the SNP manifesto for the council elections in May 2017 does not mention independence or a referendum once yet Scottish Labour and Scottish Tories have made it their main policy to hell with local services its all about trying to stop independence if i didnt know any better seems they are shite feart of a democratic vote from the people and the elected MSP'S in Holyrood | |||
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"What is unfair is that the SNP can have 54 seats with fewer votes than one seat in England! " I dont think that is Snp or any other parties fault. Boundary commission would be who you are looking at in regards to seats, and as far as im aware they arent linked to any political party. | |||
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"The had a vote to ask for one, the power to grant one resides at WM. Had you forgot about that?" Does NOT change the fact the SNP have a mandate and it did pass in Holyrood and that cant be changed or ignored or that will be seen as very undemocratic Its fucking sad the pro union side are going down this weak ass point of saying if SNP lose seats or the vote share goes down then that kills off independence as 1. the Holyrood still stands and 2. the SNP will still have a majority of MP's God loves a trier though as they fail to see the Tories may lose seats and their vote share could go down yet no one is calling to take brexit off the table if that were to happen. | |||
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"The had a vote to ask for one, the power to grant one resides at WM. Had you forgot about that?" Can i ask you a question just to see your views on it Are you ok with the Scottish parliament having a democratic vote on the section 30 order and it passing by 69-59 and the UK government trying to block a democratic vote ? I keep seeing on social media that the pro union side say that a no vote would win again with a bigger majority than 55% yet these same people say the UK government are right to block a democratically voted new independence referendum from happening to give Scotland voters a say on brexit. Now what i dont get about these people is they will still be able to go and cast their vote and vote no in a Scottish independence referendum no one will stop them from doing that. | |||
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"only policy? i guess some people haven't bothered reading the snp manifesto summary then Really ? So i take it subsidising uni places ,prescription charges free school meals for primary school kids ,the hated bedroom tax ,helping ppl who have been sanctioned with housing benefit so they arent evicted ,bus passes for the over 60s and many others out of their budget thats why the snp are so popular among scots voters they actually care about ordinary ppl and long may it continue " Ah.. If only jeremy corbyn was as firey as nichola sturgeon | |||
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"It seems to me that the SNP have only one aim, Scotish independence at all costs. Sadly for the majority of Scots, should they acheive it, they will then have the veil of Scotish Nationalism lifted from their eyes and finally get to see what a mess the SNP have made of running their country to date. By then of course it will be too late but i do wish them luck as they are a great nation. I'm sorry, but in what way do you see the SNP making a mess of running Scotland? I think you may be falling into the trap of believing everything you read in the pro-unionist press or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Unless you live and work in Scotland,(and I'm guessing you don't) the only way you can evaluate the success or failure of the Holyrood Government is from what you see and read in the media. Let me tell you that there are many hundreds of thousands of Scots happy with the way the SNP run things. Why else would we turn out in such large numbers and vote for them? Of course, there are many SNP supporters that want independence but there are also many who don't. The SNP is not just about independence despite what you may see and read. They're also about a fairer, more just and tolerant society. Don't believe everything that's put out by the pro-unionist press. " The Scottish Government's own statistics and their own statements on the economy show they are overspending and under performing. My point is that whilst many lovely Scots remain blinded by the flag of nationalism wrapped round their eyes they will not believe anything said that contradicts the SNP's spoutings on the utopia that awaits after independence. Your Nation are not alone in this. Hence the Trumpism ..."BBC! Fake News, all fake news, bad, so bad!"  | |||
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"Are you ok with the Scottish parliament having a democratic vote on the section 30 order and it passing by 69-59 and the UK government trying to block a democratic vote ? How has the UK government blocked the vote? No, the vote stands and the request was made. This is the relevant section here, "I am therefore writing to begin early discussions between our governments to agree an Order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 that would enable a referendum to be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament. I have, of course, noted and carefully considered your public position. However, it seems that we are in agreement on the essential matters. For example we agree that now is not the time for a referendum." It has not been granted (yet), therefore it has not been blocked as the request was made. The request itself was not blocked. The First Minister has REQUESTED a section 30 order, a section 30 order is reserved to Westminster. It is they who can grant or withhold this order. As the section above shows, both parliaments, in Sturgeons own words must "agree an order". You seem to have this naive assumption that the UK government must abide by Holyroods vote. It does not. What I am not OK with is the fact that a devolved administration (and you) thinks it can over rule the parliament of the UK on a non devolved constitutional matter. " Ah so you seem to be ok with the UK saying now is not the time to have a independence referendum when is the time then ? What it proves its there fuck all equal partnership and family of nations in the UK and the UK government think they can rule over other countries in the UK when we reject the Tories each time. The people of Scotland to voters voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto that if Scotland were to find itself voting to remain and being dragged out of the EU then Scotland should have the right to hold a referendum. Also a vote takes place in Holyrood and people think its ok for the UK government to say now is not the time to hold a referendum but when is the time then ? Its funny how when asked last year the PM said now is not the time for a GE election but then this year changes her mind and now is the time seems its when it suits pro union supporters if it doesnt the goal posts change. I.e look at the bullshit going on right now with people saying if SNP lose seats or lose the vote share then the case for independence dies even though the SNP will still get a majority in Scotland bullshit!!! Like i said where is all these same people coming out and saying if the Tories lose seats that brexit should be off the table if they go by there fucked up logic The goal posts keep changing for the pro union side and its all fucking bullshit and sad that they have to sink that low to try and keep unequal partnership in the UK I wonder how many people will be proud of there votes when the Tories end up with a big majority and Sctland once again rejects those right wing dickheads and your human rights and workers rights goes who will people blame then as the SNP cant be blamed for that as its not devolved to Scotland | |||
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"It seems to me that the SNP have only one aim, Scotish independence at all costs. Sadly for the majority of Scots, should they acheive it, they will then have the veil of Scotish Nationalism lifted from their eyes and finally get to see what a mess the SNP have made of running their country to date. By then of course it will be too late but i do wish them luck as they are a great nation. I'm sorry, but in what way do you see the SNP making a mess of running Scotland? I think you may be falling into the trap of believing everything you read in the pro-unionist press or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Unless you live and work in Scotland,(and I'm guessing you don't) the only way you can evaluate the success or failure of the Holyrood Government is from what you see and read in the media. Let me tell you that there are many hundreds of thousands of Scots happy with the way the SNP run things. Why else would we turn out in such large numbers and vote for them? Of course, there are many SNP supporters that want independence but there are also many who don't. The SNP is not just about independence despite what you may see and read. They're also about a fairer, more just and tolerant society. Don't believe everything that's put out by the pro-unionist press. The Scottish Government's own statistics and their own statements on the economy show they are overspending and under performing. My point is that whilst many lovely Scots remain blinded by the flag of nationalism wrapped round their eyes they will not believe anything said that contradicts the SNP's spoutings on the utopia that awaits after independence. Your Nation are not alone in this. Hence the Trumpism ..."BBC! Fake News, all fake news, bad, so bad!" "Overspending ? yet the Scottish government have an underspend and that carries on to the next year. Under performing ? Will that be the Scottish NHS that has tbe best record in the UK same with education ? So people that believe in independence its all about waving the St Andrews flag now ? Or could it be the right to self govern and vote for a party the Scottish voters vote for instead of having to suffer Tory cuts when Scotland rejects the Tories and their fucked up cuts ? Talking of fake news it was the BBC that said Scotland has the best NHS in the UK i suppose that is all bullshit then | |||
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"Independence is the raison d'etre of the SNP. Why would anyone think that they would abandon the very reason for their movement - the restoration of Scottish autonomy and freedom from the cruel indifference of the tory party?" So if labour was in power would they not have the same reason | |||
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"The best in what exactly?.......The education standards have not slipped as much as tumbled under the SNP....slower economic growth over 5yrs, NHS targets repeatedly missed, The debacle of the Transport system/Minister...Police Scotland another disaster, with the Transport police still to add to the mix of misguided amatuerish thinking Oh any new policies for us ?.......Noooo too busy trying to lead us over the independence cliff to bother with that kind of real govt. "If the SNP are really that bad as people say they are then why are the voters not voting any or parties to govern Scotland ? Must be doing something right if the voters are voting SNP. As for policies has anyone in Scotland seen the Tory leaflets for the council elections there is an eye opener. Its all about stopping a referendum and its all SNP bad Nicola bad and no policies and i mean no policies on how to help local services and they say the SNP cant stop talking about independence when the SNP leaflets say nothing on a referendum or independence. What people dont get and they are being hoodwinked by the media into this SNP bad shite is the SNP are giving the people of Scotland an option on independence its the yes side that is keeping the independence talk going also their was a democratic vote to hold a new independence referendum and people that are pro union will still get to vote no thats their right and no one is going to force people not to vote no again but what about people that have change their minds and now would vote for independence are people going to deny them a right to change their minds thats not democratic | |||
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" Under performing ? Will that be the Scottish NHS that has tbe best record in the UK same with education ? " Are you really going to make this claim about the Scottish NHS again after the last thread you made on here about it? That one didn't work out too well. The reality is far more complex than what you were claiming. https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/594453 | |||
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""If the SNP are really that bad as people say they are then why are the voters not voting any or parties to govern Scotland ? Must be doing something right if the voters are voting SNP." We shall see in the coming weeks if that is the case. "As for policies has anyone in Scotland seen the Tory leaflets for the council elections there is an eye opener. Its all about stopping a referendum and its all SNP bad Nicola bad and no policies and i mean no policies on how to help local services and they say the SNP cant stop talking about independence when the SNP leaflets say nothing on a referendum or independence." You dont do irony do you? Look in the mirror, all your posts are tory this, tory that. Tell me why snp council leaflets are about independence? What does independence mean for local services when the Scottish governments has slashed council spending in this years budget? Any vote for the snp will be taken as a vote for independence, after all in the 2015 GE, independence was not in manifesto yet every one of those MP,s core aim is independence. Its one aim is independence. Even people who voted remain in the EU ref, their vote has been hijacked as a vote for another independence referendum. Its all they are, its is their raison d'être, and to insist otherwise is simply misleading at best, or lying at worst. "What people dont get and they are being hoodwinked by the media into this SNP bad shite is the SNP are giving the people of Scotland an option on independence its the yes side that is keeping the independence talk going also their was a democratic vote to hold a new independence referendum and people that are pro union will still get to vote no thats their right and no one is going to force people not to vote no again but what about people that have change their minds and now would vote for independence are people going to deny them a right to change their minds thats not democratic There will be another referendum, the PM has said and sturgeon agrees, that now is not the time. Once Brexit negotiations are over then we will be given the chance to reject independence for the second time in a generation! By a larger margin than last time and put this nonsense to bed, if current polls suggest. Personally Id have one next week, because their is no appetite for it in Scotland. Support for independence is plummeting, its down to 37% according to recent polls. So I agree with you on one thing, people have changed their minds, they now support the union in greater numbers than ever before. And they do not want another referendum. As I said earlier, we shall see in the coming weeks." Yeah we shall see and am even willing to say SNP will end up with a majority in the UK election will the lose seats maybe will the gain seats maybe but what i do know is they will end up with the majority of Scottish MP seats in Westminster. Also i know the way pro union supporters are going to try and spin any lose in seats or lose in share votes for the SNP will be a case for independence to be killed off. Problem with that is the section 30 order vote took place in Holyrood and that vote passed and that is a democratic vote that should not be ignored or that is very undemocratic. Breaking news the SNP are a pro indy party and they did have a manifesto policy that if Scotland faced being dragged out of the EU then the Scottish parliement should have the right to hold a referendum and that was voted for by the people of Scotland and thats a mandate. Irony eh Scottish Labour in 2016 wanted to raise income tax they were rejected and the Scottish government said councils will have the power to raise tax if they wish to now seen as Labour hold the majority of councils for now they had their chance to raise tax and what did they do freeze the tax. There will be another one ? Have you heard Theresa say yes to having another referendum on Scottish independence ? Yeah Nicola did say she is not asking for one now but for one just before the final brexit deal have been signed off to allow the Scottish people to decide if we agree to brexit or Scottish independence. Offt so you think it puts it too bed ? So if it is another no vote you really think believe that believe independence are just going to give up ? Also if a party puts it in a manifesto to have a referendum and that party is elected then sorry but that is a mandate just as i would say if a pro union party won an election with the policy to put a Scottish independence referendum off the table for that term and they win that election then they have a mandate. Ah polls eh so what about the ones saying 45% 47% and 48% are they all lying now ? Do you just take the one poll thats says no to independence or do you accept all polls that show support for independence ? You say you agree with me that people have changed their minds on independence good to know you agree so will you agree that people have changed their minds and now would vote for independence ? I will yeah there could be yes voters now back a no vote Oh and you dont know people support the the union in a bigger majority just like i dont know about people supporting independence in a bigger majority as polls dont ask everyone. But at least am willing to let people decide instead of pro union supporters saying there should be another independence referendum i dont see the problem as they will all get to vote no again | |||
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""Yeah we shall see and am even willing to say SNP will end up with a majority in the UK election will the lose seats maybe will the gain seats maybe but what i do know is they will end up with the majority of Scottish MP seats in Westminster. Also i know the way pro union supporters are going to try and spin any lose in seats or lose in share votes for the SNP will be a case for independence to be killed off." When the snp,s vote share is down and lose seats, how would you describe it? No spin would be required. I would be a sure sign that their popularity is on the wane. To think otherwise would simply be delusional. "Problem with that is the section 30 order vote took place in Holyrood and that vote passed and that is a democratic vote that should not be ignored or that is very undemocratic." Both houses must agree on a section 30 order, Holyrood cannot force one as it is beyond its legal competancy to do so. You seem to be saying that a Holyrood should be used to compel the UK parliament. There are powers that are devolved and and reserved, this is reserved to the UK parliament and it is in its gift to grant one, NOT Holyrood. "Breaking news the SNP are a pro indy party and they did have a manifesto policy that if Scotland faced being dragged out of the EU then the Scottish parliament should have the right to hold a referendum and that was voted for by the people of Scotland and thats a mandate." But it wasnt voted for by the people of Scotland, more people voted for unionist parties than separatist ones. The current government are a MINORITY government. Oh I know that they are a one trick pony, Independence transcends all. Policies have came and went, many bandwagons have been jumped on and off. Only one remains independence, buy fair means or foul. "Irony eh Scottish Labour in 2016 wanted to raise income tax they were rejected and the Scottish government said councils will have the power to raise tax if they wish to now seen as Labour hold the majority of councils for now they had their chance to raise tax and what did they do freeze the tax" Irony indeed, it someone else fault as usual. The snp government has had its annual budget increased this year and it has slashed council budgets and then puts the responsibility on councils to raise tax. That is not government, that is passing the buck so if services are cut they can deny any responsibility. This is taking money from councils to give freebies away to the middle classes for gimmicks like free prescriptions, baby boxes and free Uni places to everyone in the EU except of course students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. "There will be another one ? Have you heard Theresa say yes to having another referendum on Scottish independence ?" She and Nicola agree now is not the time, that time will be after the Brexit negotiation are concluded. She never said no, did she? "Ah polls eh so what about the ones saying 45% 47% and 48% are they all lying now ? Do you just take the one poll thats says no to independence or do you accept all polls that show support for independence ?" The most recent one said 37%, I,m quite happy that are quoting polls of support for independence at 45% 47% or 48%, because every one of them shows a minority support it, not one has support for independence in the majority. There are no polls that show a majority support independence. "You say you agree with me that people have changed their minds on independence good to know you agree so will you agree that people have changed their minds and now would vote for independence ?" Polls would suggest people have changed their minds, unfortunately for you its from the yes side to the no. If I had the power to grant another referendum, I,d have it next week. It would be a damn sight higher than 55% to remain in this union." So do you agree with the spin then if the SNP lose seats and lose the vote share that kills off independence ? It changes nothing. Also whats your views if the SNP gain seats then is that a bigger case for independence by pro union logic ? To block the section 30 order would be very undemocratic correct ? in 2016 in the Scottish election the SNP managed over a million votes now you seem to be trying to add up all pro union votes but if you take them as each party vote they got nowhere near million votes. Yup a minority government that were two short of making it a majority again and look how 2007 SNP minority worked out as the 2011 election they got a majority vote in a parliament designed to stop an SNP majority. WTF so now baby boxes are not good now ? What have you got against giving fmailies and their baby's a good start in life that need help ? Theresa May said no such thing she did say now is not the time but she didnt say Scotland will have another independence referendum correct ? And its quite something you believe Theresa May when say said no to having a UK election now the u-turn on that. So you do agree their is polls showing 45 46 48 % and that is all without an official yes campaign even started and its near neck and neck for polls. So do you agree there is people out their that have changed their minds that now back independence ? I get their will be yes voters that may have changed to a no vote fair enough but no one will ever know until their is a referendum polls never tell a true figure Also its telling that pro union parties and some supporters think it will be another no vote but those pro union parties are trying to do everything they can to stop a democratic vote from the people and Holyrood. Thats your opinion. But a wee factor is in a new independence referendum 16 and 17 year olds and EU citizens will have a vote and am willing to say alot of them are pro indy and not happy with the way the UK government are treating them. Maybe thats why the UK government and the Scottish Tories want to stop a democratic vote on holding a referendum. | |||
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"The snp have a mandate in their last manifesto for another referendum if there was material change which brexit was ,they will do the same in this manifesto and if they are voted in it will show that the majority of scottish ppl back them and their manifesto no matter if they lose seats as long as the are voted in " That was for the Scottish parliament. This is a Westminster election....for MPs (not for MSPs). It's not the same thing. Nicola isn't an MP. There will be no change in the Scottish Parliament as they are not having an election. The call for a second referendum has already been passed in the Scottish Parliament.... but they need the permission of Westminster to hold one...and Theresa, she say no! | |||
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"The section 30 order has not been blocked, stop this nonsense. It is for the UK government to decide on the granting of it NOT Holyrood. There are more unionists in Scotland than separatists, the fact that they are split between three parties seems to be a mystery to you. Baby boxes are a gimmick full of Primark tat that has proven to be of no value when it come to the overall health of the child by themselves. As for there being no yes campaign, what a load of crap, the entire snp and its government are constantly promoting it. I see no evidence that people have changed their minds from no to yes.Do you? We had a vote, and over 2 million voted to remain. You seem to be denying their democratic voice. Come back when you have 2 million supporters. 16 & 17 year olds and EU citizens also had the vote in the last one, where does this latest figment of your imagination come from? " IF again if she was to block it it would be undemocratic and the vote passed in Holyrood. See there is problem you seem fine for a government Scotland rejects to decide when Scotland can hold a referendum and on what powers gets devolved to Scotland. Gimmick really ? So you dont want families that are struggling to be given baby boxes to help them out ?Also helps pervent child cot deaths Also ask the people in Finland how succesful baby boxes are. Right so hold on you say people have changed their minds from yes to no but you wont accept their is people that have changed their minds from no to yes ? And no one have the right to deny them that right to change their minds. Yes i have seen the evidence some of my family and friend were no voters and now back independence. Are you on about the 2014 referendum 2 million ? Yes thats right it was a no vote and has been respected but things have changed and people voted for a party that put in their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and that is democratic. Yes they did correct again but thing is the EU ciztizens have now seen what the UK government think of them and 16 and 17 years mostly backed independence in 2014 and their will be alot of new voters that are now legal age to vote in a future referendum. | |||
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"The section 30 order has not been blocked, stop this nonsense. It is for the UK government to decide on the granting of it NOT Holyrood. There are more unionists in Scotland than separatists, the fact that they are split between three parties seems to be a mystery to you. Baby boxes are a gimmick full of Primark tat that has proven to be of no value when it come to the overall health of the child by themselves. As for there being no yes campaign, what a load of crap, the entire snp and its government are constantly promoting it. I see no evidence that people have changed their minds from no to yes.Do you? We had a vote, and over 2 million voted to remain. You seem to be denying their democratic voice. Come back when you have 2 million supporters. 16 & 17 year olds and EU citizens also had the vote in the last one, where does this latest figment of your imagination come from? " Also what is your view on if the SNP gain seats in Westminster will that be an even bigger case for independence ? Since the pro union side seem to be going down this road that if SNP lose seats that kills off independence i know this is what people think but i've heard anyone on if the SNP gain seats only fair to see it both ways | |||
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"Gone a bit off topic. If the SNP lose a significant number of seats that's surely a sign to Nicola that we don't like what she's doing? " But it would have to a significant number because, let's face it, if you've got nearly every seat possible already, there is only one way the number of seats you have this time is likely to go, and that's down. If she looses 5 or less no change. | |||
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"the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases. Explain i'll say it slowly ... so you undertand .... the formula is hugely out of date for the 21st century ... the celtic nations allocated budgets are in dire need of massive increases .... if you still don't understand i could say it again for you louder "No need to say it louder or slower just tell us why you think the Celtic Nations require a massive increase in their share of the UK budget. | |||
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"The had a vote to ask for one, the power to grant one resides at WM. Had you forgot about that? Does NOT change the fact the SNP have a mandate and it did pass in Holyrood and that cant be changed or ignored or that will be seen as very undemocratic Its fucking sad the pro union side are going down this weak ass point of saying if SNP lose seats or the vote share goes down then that kills off independence as 1. the Holyrood still stands and 2. the SNP will still have a majority of MP's God loves a trier though as they fail to see the Tories may lose seats and their vote share could go down yet no one is calling to take brexit off the table if that were to happen. " I think you'll find that the argument will not be about, and currently is not about, whether there will be another indi ref, but on when. | |||
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"It seems to me that the SNP have only one aim, Scotish independence at all costs. Sadly for the majority of Scots, should they acheive it, they will then have the veil of Scotish Nationalism lifted from their eyes and finally get to see what a mess the SNP have made of running their country to date. By then of course it will be too late but i do wish them luck as they are a great nation. I'm sorry, but in what way do you see the SNP making a mess of running Scotland? I think you may be falling into the trap of believing everything you read in the pro-unionist press or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Unless you live and work in Scotland,(and I'm guessing you don't) the only way you can evaluate the success or failure of the Holyrood Government is from what you see and read in the media. Let me tell you that there are many hundreds of thousands of Scots happy with the way the SNP run things. Why else would we turn out in such large numbers and vote for them? Of course, there are many SNP supporters that want independence but there are also many who don't. The SNP is not just about independence despite what you may see and read. They're also about a fairer, more just and tolerant society. Don't believe everything that's put out by the pro-unionist press. The Scottish Government's own statistics and their own statements on the economy show they are overspending and under performing. My point is that whilst many lovely Scots remain blinded by the flag of nationalism wrapped round their eyes they will not believe anything said that contradicts the SNP's spoutings on the utopia that awaits after independence. Your Nation are not alone in this. Hence the Trumpism ..."BBC! Fake News, all fake news, bad, so bad!" "Seams like they're more similar to BREXITers than anything else then. | |||
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"The snp have a mandate in their last manifesto for another referendum if there was material change which brexit was ,they will do the same in this manifesto and if they are voted in it will show that the majority of scottish ppl back them and their manifesto no matter if they lose seats as long as the are voted in That was for the Scottish parliament. This is a Westminster election....for MPs (not for MSPs). It's not the same thing. Nicola isn't an MP. There will be no change in the Scottish Parliament as they are not having an election. The call for a second referendum has already been passed in the Scottish Parliament.... but they need the permission of Westminster to hold one...and Theresa, she say no!" Actually she said yes but not yet. | |||
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"When is the time ?................When a generation has passed, when our democratic vote of 2014 is respected not trashed by the myopic ,one policy protest party...... "Who gets to decide when a generation is then? Would it be the people living in Scotland? Those same people that elected the SNP on their manifesto to hold a independence referendum giving the SNP a mandate and then the section 30 order democratically passing in Holyrood those people ? In 2016 in the Scottish elections if the pro union parties put in their manifesto to take an independence referendum off the table for that term then that would that party a mandate from the people to take independence off the table. So why is it so hard for people to accept the SNP do have a mandate from the Scottish people and the section 30 order passing in Holyrood as democracy ? 2014 has been respected it was sadly a no vote i get that and so do many others but things have very much changed and people have changed their minds and you cannot deny anyone a right to change their minds or that is borderline dictatorship. | |||
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"Hypocritical from the Scottish government to ignore the votes that they lost as well, but independence transcends all. So just sweep that under the carpet, along with the two million Scots that voted no in the 2014 "once in a generation" referendum. " Ah but the votes that am talking about is the Football Act and Fracking yes the Scottish government lost in Holyrood but..... Problem is with the Football Act is not one of the parties that voted against it have brought forward a bill to say what they think is better and replace it with And with fracking yes the vote was against again but problem is right now there still is no fracking in Scotland because of the moratorium which cannot be challenged in court where as right now if the Scottish government ban it outright it can be challenged in court and since the UK government have given the green light for the UK to allow fracking then its more than likely the Scottish government would lose the court case. Right so who gets to decide when a generation is in your opinion ? Also what if the SNP gain seats in this election will that be sending a message that people do want a referendum on independence ? Seen as am seeing from the pro union side seem to be saying any seats lost for SNP is sending a message people dont want a referendum on independence ? That seems to be their logic | |||
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"A generation, I would say as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. Now I know Scotland does have a lower life expectancy than other parts of the UK, but and generation is a lot more than a couple of years. What your view of how long a generation is? I doubt you,ll answer. " So who gets to decide when a generation is then ? That is what am asking you and i didnt see you answer that to be fair. Is it the people living in Scotland that will decide that ? Same people that elected the SNP on their manifesto policy. The once in a generation crap was an opinion what does matter however is see when a party has a manfesto policy and they are elected that is the people giving that elected party a mandate Lets go and twist it the other way say if a pro union party had won the 2016 Scottish elections and say for example the voters elected Scottish Labour who in their manifesto had raising income tax they would have a mandate from the Scottish people to deliver on that policy to raise income tax correct ? | |||
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"A generation is the time it takes for a newborn to grow to full adulthood and become parents themselves, but usually considered to be 30yrs for accounting purposes.....So the term we have "Respected the vote" is bullshit and typical of the deviousness shown by Mr and Mrs Murrell...Oh and you need to ask yourselves do i want my fellow Scots to be poorer so that you can shout "Freeeeedom and wave your flag...Trump supporting logic is all that i can see from you "Right thats your opinion of when a genteration is but what i am asking is WHO gets to decide when a generation is ? How many years ? WHO gets to decide how many years ? Will it be the people living in Scotland ? The same people that elected the SNP on their manifesto ? | |||
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"A generation, I would say as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. Now I know Scotland does have a lower life expectancy than other parts of the UK, but and generation is a lot more than a couple of years. What your view of how long a generation is? I doubt you,ll answer. " 2014 indy ref "once in a lifetime" 2015 This article is 1 year old Frances Perraudin @fperraudin Friday 16 October 2015 05.31 EDT Last modified on Friday 17 February 2017 07.56 EST A second Scottish independence referendum would be “probably unstoppable” if the UK voted to leave the European Union without the majority of voters in Scotland also voting to leave, Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has said. Speaking on the second day of the Scottish National party conference in Aberdeen, the party’s leader said that if Scotland was taken out of the EU against its “democratically expressed wishes”, it would undoubtedly spark demand for a second referendum. “I’m not saying [a referendum would be] automatic, but I do think that it’s highly likely,” she added. “The issue of EU membership was central to the referendum campaign,” Sturgeon told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Friday. “The no campaign – though it was nonsense – said the only way to protect our EU membership was to vote no.” If the majority of Scottish voters opted to stay in the EU but the UK as a whole voted to leave, “the demand for a second independence referendum would be probably unstoppable”, she said. 2015 election result- SNP wins all but three seats 2016 election result- Snps wins for the third time saying the same something material has to change such as Brexit. 2017 Brexit happens SNP calls for a second referendum. Looks like a party that actually delivers what they say. | |||
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"The once in a generation "crap" as you put it was not just an opinion, it was government policy, it was part of the white paper and the first and deputy first minister and many others constantly spouted it on TV and radio. To suggest it was just a rogue opinion is simply a lie. Whats your view on how long a generation is, will we get an answer? " Hold on you want me to answer your question but your not gonna answer mine ? Am asking you WHO gets to decide when a generation is ? Where in the Edinburgh agreement did it say it was a once in a generation ? Also am still waiting on an answer to my question what if the SNP gain seats in the elecion will that send a message that people do want independence referendum ? Seen as pro union supporters are saying if SNP lose seats its sending a message that people dont want a independence referendum | |||
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"The term i used for a "Generation " is defined by the dictionary.....I also stated that for statistical purposes in accounting it is also 30yrs...So it is not my opinion it is a definition... Obviously your SNP dictionary says 2 1/2 years.....But then your not interested in logic or common sense "Again thats your opinion But what i am asking is WHO gets to decide when a generation is ? | |||
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"“The issue of EU membership was central to the referendum campaign,” I,d love to see how she can demonstrate who an independent Scotland can join the EU. The issue of currency, central bank, deficit and independent tax system all remain unresolved. These must be addressed even before we can seek membership. The white paper with a currency union with the UK, would have made EU membership an impossibility. The whole independence and in the EU was a total lie. And people swallowed it. " Quote correct we did indeed swallow a lot of rubbish such as the only way of guaranteeing European membership was to vote no. Look how that turned out. | |||
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"You say it's the Scottish people that should decide. You, as a Scottish person, what is your personal opinion of a generation? Will you answer? " Cop out answer Again am asking you WHO do you think gets to decide when a generation is i see no answer from you ? That to me doesnt matter a jot as the Scottish people voted and elected a party that had a referendum in their manifesto and that is a mandate. Thats my opinion its the pro union side that is using this shit about once in a generation. My opinion is you elect a party and that party has a mandate Also what if SNP gain seats in the election would that mean people want a independence referendum ? | |||
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"Is it not interesting that having given the definition of a generation the half witted SNP supporter is still asking the same question.......Yes Trump Trump Trumpet "Halfwit ? What is with the name calling ? Come on we are adluts on a swinging site its all about having fun i dont mind debating with people that are pro union i have no problem with you or anyone that believes in the UK thats your right am here to have a friendly debate with people. So 30 years is that now a law ? SO it cant be 29 years ? or 31 ? or 15 , 16 , 17 25, 27 it has to be 30 years dead on ? Where is the law to say that ? | |||
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" Quote correct we did indeed swallow a lot of rubbish such as the only way of guaranteeing European membership was to vote no. Look how that turned out." Did the no campaign actually say that? Lets not forget that we would have been OUT of the EU last year if we were independent. The EU themselves said that treaties do not apply to third countries. Aos a new independent state, Scotland would be a third country in the EU,s eyes. A yes vote meant leaving BOTH the UK and the EU. | |||
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"Look it up............... "Look what up ? Where in the law it states that no referendum can now take place for 30 years ? That is a dictatorship | |||
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"Could the "adult" answer the question. In your view as one of the Scottish people, how long do you think a generation is? " It would be nice if as adults we could all answer questions am still waiting on two questions 1. Who gets to decide on when a generation is to hold a referendum again on indepndence ? 2. If SNP gain seats then is that the people sending a message saying they want an independence referendum? seen as the pro union siade are saying if SNP lose seats that is sending a message to say people dont want a independence referendum I have answered yours by saying it doesnt really matter to me as am not the one going on and on about the once in a generation. my answer to that for a 2nd time is that if you elect a party on their mnaifesto policies then that party has a mandate. PLease if you dont mind answerig mine to be fair | |||
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"Look it up...............
Look what up ? Where in the law it states that no referendum can now take place for 30 years ? That is a dictatorship"Are you the same poster that claimed there was a law stating the Scottish Govt had to publish the Gers figures? If so, which law is it? | |||
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"Look it up...............
Look what up ? Where in the law it states that no referendum can now take place for 30 years ? That is a dictatorship
Are you the same poster that claimed there was a law stating the Scottish Govt had to publish the Gers figures? If so, which law is it?
"Well seen as money is not devolved to Scotland right and the GERS was set up by the Tories so those figures the Scottish government have to go with as again money is not devolved. Also Kevin Hague confirmed on live radio that GERS figures is totally irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland. What it does clearly show is Westminster governments have shafted Scotland and their mis management of finances Hands up how many of you trust the Tories with finances? Seen as they are the party that is missing ALL targets and borrowing and adding to the UK debt ? | |||
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"A Generation is not a law...it is a definition, I understand your trolling it is not funny...........just rather sad "Right so the once in a genration is not a law so we have made that clear. Right so there is no set amount of years that a referendum on independence can not take place and the only way it can take place if a party puts a referendum on independence in a manifesto and that party is elected and then they will have a mandate fromt he people to deliver on their manifesto polices. Troll name calling again no need for it. Am here to debate as i enjoy debating and hearing people's views on things and debating with them. You have your views i have mine am not fall out with anyone on here thats sad if people fall out on a site thats suppose to be about having fun. We should all be bigger than that and respect people have different views and its ok to debate them. I will leave it at that and hope you have a lovely rest of the night even if its been a mixed night of sunny and cold and rain lol | |||
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"Ah, I see what your doing, avoiding answering a direct question under the dubious premise that it does not matter to you. In other words you don't want to answer as you well know, but you don't want to admit it that a generation is longer than a couple of years. You have been told before that there are reserved powers and devolved powers, the power to hold constitutional referendum is reserved. And if (big word), you get more vote and seats it does indeed strengthen the case for another referendum, conversely if you lose votes and lose seats, that would weaken the case for separation. Do you agree? I should have said it doesn't matter to me and avoided giving an answer, but this adult does not run away from giving answers to reasonable questions. " No i think you will see i did answer it by saying '' i think in my opinion a party elected on their manifesto gives them a mandate to deliver the polices in their manifesto'' am not the one going on about the generation thing. Right so you think if the SNP do gain seats in this election it send a message that people do want an referendum on independence ? Do i agree no as this election is fuck all to do with independence this is a UK election to elect MP's we had a vote in Holyrood and it passed that is the mandate and after 8th June that mandate we still be there. My point was that from the pro union side logic was if they are saying any seats lost in this election for the SNP then it send a message that people dont want a referendum so by their logic then they also must think if seats are gained by the SNP then that sends a message that people do want a referendum on independence. | |||
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"No she would rather die than give up I reckon,it is her mission to free Scotland and destroy England if she can I reckon. More dangerous than ISIS maybe" Emma Being pro independence does not equate to anti english. If you believe it does then by extension anyone who voted for Brexit wants to destroy Europe just like ISIS and despite the fact I disagree with people who voted for Brexit I do not for one minute suggest that they want to destroy Europe. | |||
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" Well seen as money is not devolved to Scotland right and the GERS was set up by the Tories so those figures the Scottish government have to go with as again money is not devolved. Also Kevin Hague confirmed on live radio that GERS figures is totally irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland. What it does clearly show is Westminster governments have shafted Scotland and their mis management of finances Hands up how many of you trust the Tories with finances? Seen as they are the party that is missing ALL targets and borrowing and adding to the UK debt ? " First of all, I only asked what law you claimed meant the Scottish Government had to publish Gers. If you don't know or realise now that there isn't one you could just have said so. Also, to address the above 1) Money IS devolved to Scotland. You may have noticed the Scottish budget that the Scottish parliament sets every year. 2) Gers figures have been completely revamped and refined by the SNP (much of the work done by their pet economists, the Cuthberts). They are, in the SNP's own words 'the definitive figures on Scotland's finances' 3) Gers are produced by Civil Servants in the Scottish Govt, not the UK Govt 4) Kevin Hague didn't say that at all. If you are interested in a real debate rather than trolling you should do some fact checking. He repeated what he has always said about Gers. 5) The Gers figures don't show the Westminster govt have shafted us, they show the exact opposite, i.e. we receive a huge fiscal transfer of over £9bn more than we raised last year. This is due to the barnett formula. 6) The Scottish parliament is responsible for the majority of the economy in Scotland. If anyone has mismanaged the economy it is them (and the figures show it's got much much worse under their leadership) 7) The Scottish govt's deficit is far higher than the UK govt as a whole. If you wish to talk about missing targets then they are failing badly in most areas. I'm happy to debate the Gers figures and finances in detail if you are but I get the feeling from your post that you either don't understand them, haven't actually looked at them in any detail, or rely on pro indy sites for others to tell you what you should believe about them. If you investigate them yourself I think your beliefs may be rather shaken. | |||
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"What GERS does show the starting point for independence. You must demonstrate what you would change, how would revenue be raised and how would you spent it. The case for independence is not being made by saying GERS is irrelevant as even the snp don't say this. GERS was in the economic case for independence in the white paper. They used it as a basis for independence. Tell us what you would change, give us a credible alternative. If not, you can't give one, what do you have? Nothing! " What GERS shows is a Scotland part of the UK is being shafted it does not show in anyway what an independent Scotland would look like. For example.. When Rep of Ireland gained independence from the UK, it negotiated an agreement which gave it none of the UK’s debt whatsoever correct ? So Why couldnt Scotland do the same ? | |||
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" Well seen as money is not devolved to Scotland right and the GERS was set up by the Tories so those figures the Scottish government have to go with as again money is not devolved. Also Kevin Hague confirmed on live radio that GERS figures is totally irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland. What it does clearly show is Westminster governments have shafted Scotland and their mis management of finances Hands up how many of you trust the Tories with finances? Seen as they are the party that is missing ALL targets and borrowing and adding to the UK debt ? First of all, I only asked what law you claimed meant the Scottish Government had to publish Gers. If you don't know or realise now that there isn't one you could just have said so. Also, to address the above 1) Money IS devolved to Scotland. You may have noticed the Scottish budget that the Scottish parliament sets every year. 2) Gers figures have been completely revamped and refined by the SNP (much of the work done by their pet economists, the Cuthberts). They are, in the SNP's own words 'the definitive figures on Scotland's finances' 3) Gers are produced by Civil Servants in the Scottish Govt, not the UK Govt 4) Kevin Hague didn't say that at all. If you are interested in a real debate rather than trolling you should do some fact checking. He repeated what he has always said about Gers. 5) The Gers figures don't show the Westminster govt have shafted us, they show the exact opposite, i.e. we receive a huge fiscal transfer of over £9bn more than we raised last year. This is due to the barnett formula. 6) The Scottish parliament is responsible for the majority of the economy in Scotland. If anyone has mismanaged the economy it is them (and the figures show it's got much much worse under their leadership) 7) The Scottish govt's deficit is far higher than the UK govt as a whole. If you wish to talk about missing targets then they are failing badly in most areas. I'm happy to debate the Gers figures and finances in detail if you are but I get the feeling from your post that you either don't understand them, haven't actually looked at them in any detail, or rely on pro indy sites for others to tell you what you should believe about them. If you investigate them yourself I think your beliefs may be rather shaken." money is not devolved to Scotland. Are you really saying any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland ? Or does it infact get send to Westminster ? The budget is set by Westmister through Barnett and the Scottish government then get to spent that budget on things like the NHS which yes is devolved and any money that is underspend carries on to the next year and does NOT get set to Westminster it did use to get Send back to Westminster by Labour governments in Scotland imagine that eh sending money that was underspend to Westminster how utter crazy is that ? Well at least you dont need to worry about that happening now. Yes he did say on radio that GERS does not show what an independent Scotland would look like finally he did admit it/ Scotland is in the UK so yes it does show you how Westminster shaft Scotland. | |||
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"Shafted? By giving it a £9bn fiscal transfer? For every £1 pound spent in the UK, the Barnett formula makes sure that Scotland gets £1.17, yet in England it's only 97p. Only Northern Ireland gets more, but we know in light of the recent troubles in the past that that is a special case. I've yet to see you give an alternative to GERS, in other words you don't, you have no credible alternative. Oh, and your example of the RoI is wrong. " I don't actually know the answer to this question so it may backfire on me
How is the England 97% influenced by London and the SE. What about the North or the west and areas with a more dilute population etc. How do they compare to Scotland? As I say I don't know the answer. | |||
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"It's done on an average per capita share, money spent divided by the population. Good question, it could also be asked of Scotland too, does the rural areas get more spent of them per capita than the denser populated cities and towns. That's the beauty of pooling and sharing of the UK, a standard is maintained wherever you live on these Isles. " I like the way you turned a possible negative into a positive :- However it could be said that London and the South East subsidise the rest of the UK. I think that will be just as valid as saying England subsidises Scotland. | |||
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"It matters not a jot whether a private firm or the government does the assessments, it's the criteria used and how it's applied that actually matters. " As i thought when the SNP do something good you cant even praise them | |||
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"What have they done other than change who does the sanctioning? If they change the criteria and how its applied then I will express my opinion on it. They have not expressed any changes to current assessments, only that private firm will not carry them out. Exactly what difference does it make if they retain the same rules and procedures? Absolutely nothing. Sorry I,m not jumping for joy on such a non story. " Non Story ? Tell that to the people that have suffered with those assessments and being told they are fit to work when clearly they arent just so people working for ATOS can get their wee shit commission. Also all those people that took their own life at least now with those firms being banned for doing assessments in Scotland people no longer have to suffer having to go in a prove they are unfit to work its fucking sick they way they are treated. | |||
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" Well seen as money is not devolved to Scotland right and the GERS was set up by the Tories so those figures the Scottish government have to go with as again money is not devolved. Also Kevin Hague confirmed on live radio that GERS figures is totally irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland. What it does clearly show is Westminster governments have shafted Scotland and their mis management of finances Hands up how many of you trust the Tories with finances? Seen as they are the party that is missing ALL targets and borrowing and adding to the UK debt ? First of all, I only asked what law you claimed meant the Scottish Government had to publish Gers. If you don't know or realise now that there isn't one you could just have said so. Also, to address the above 1) Money IS devolved to Scotland. You may have noticed the Scottish budget that the Scottish parliament sets every year. 2) Gers figures have been completely revamped and refined by the SNP (much of the work done by their pet economists, the Cuthberts). They are, in the SNP's own words 'the definitive figures on Scotland's finances' 3) Gers are produced by Civil Servants in the Scottish Govt, not the UK Govt 4) Kevin Hague didn't say that at all. If you are interested in a real debate rather than trolling you should do some fact checking. He repeated what he has always said about Gers. 5) The Gers figures don't show the Westminster govt have shafted us, they show the exact opposite, i.e. we receive a huge fiscal transfer of over £9bn more than we raised last year. This is due to the barnett formula. 6) The Scottish parliament is responsible for the majority of the economy in Scotland. If anyone has mismanaged the economy it is them (and the figures show it's got much much worse under their leadership) 7) The Scottish govt's deficit is far higher than the UK govt as a whole. If you wish to talk about missing targets then they are failing badly in most areas. I'm happy to debate the Gers figures and finances in detail if you are but I get the feeling from your post that you either don't understand them, haven't actually looked at them in any detail, or rely on pro indy sites for others to tell you what you should believe about them. If you investigate them yourself I think your beliefs may be rather shaken. money is not devolved to Scotland. Are you really saying any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland ? Or does it infact get send to Westminster ? The budget is set by Westmister through Barnett and the Scottish government then get to spent that budget on things like the NHS which yes is devolved and any money that is underspend carries on to the next year and does NOT get set to Westminster it did use to get Send back to Westminster by Labour governments in Scotland imagine that eh sending money that was underspend to Westminster how utter crazy is that ? Well at least you dont need to worry about that happening now. Yes he did say on radio that GERS does not show what an independent Scotland would look like finally he did admit it/ Scotland is in the UK so yes it does show you how Westminster shaft Scotland. " 1) You may want to check the definition of 'devolved'. It's clear you don't know what it means. 2) The Scottish Govt sets their budget, for example they can spend as much or as little as they want on the NHS 3) Kevin Hague has repeatedly (on many occasions) said the Gers figures show the starting point for an independent Scotland. It's up to the SNP to show how the figures would change post independence and so far they've been unable to do that. For example, if they say Scotland would raise more revenue then they have to show how they'd do that (and more importantly why they are doing it now with all the powers they have) 4) Your last comment comes accross as being childish. Repeating a statement continually doesn't make make it a fact. If you believe Gers show Westminster is shafting Scotland then tell us where exactly, is it on the Revenue side or the Expenditure side? Which pages of Gers point out this 'shafting'? And have you even read the Gers report? I'm numbering these replies to make them easy to address individually but I'm not sure you're interested in actual debate as you either can't or won't respond to each of them. You've completely ignored a lot of areas on this thread where you've been proven to be wrong. | |||
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"They would start with a deficit. No ones hiding that. Plenty countries all over the world have deficits, except a very fortunate few including Norway but they've got oil. Different ways of dealing with deficits, Tories prefer austerity, hitting the poorest hardest (as IDS admitted on Marr, scandalously, because "they don't vote for us" That's not the only way to deal with it though, borrowing to stimulate growth through increased infrastructure spending is part of a different solution. I don't think anyone is saying it would be a land of milk and honey, but surely the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" argument is finished. " It wouldn't just be a deficit, it would be a massive unsustainable deficit. It's far higher than any other EU country for example. You can't borrow your way out of such a huge deficit. The markets would be wary of lending (especially if there was a new currency) and if they did the rates and conditions would be so high that it could hamstring the country for many years to come. There's 2 ways to do it. Increased revenue through taxes (and it's too big for that) or cuts to public expenditure. It would need a combination of both but to give an example of what that would be like So let's look at raising taxes to see if it's possible to make up the £9bn (additional) deficit: Well, no. £9bn is 77% of Scotland's entire income tax take for a year so there's no amount of tax increases could make up this amount. There are only around 17,000 higher rate tax payers in Scotland according to HMRC (those who pay the 45p rate). At the last election the SNP refused to increase this to the 50p rate saying that doing so would reduce revenues by £30m (as people look at avoidance methods or moving their tax base to England etc). So let's look at cuts to public expenditure to reduce the deficit: The cuts would have to be in every single area, Benefits, Pensions, Housing, Local Authorities, Health, Education, Public Order etc etc. Every single one would see cuts on a scale never seen before. As a comparison, the cuts to public spending during the austerity years of 2009 - 2015 were 2.3% but this would require cuts of an eye watering 13% !!! | |||
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"It seems to me that the SNP have only one aim, Scotish independence at all costs. Sadly for the majority of Scots, should they acheive it, they will then have the veil of Scotish Nationalism lifted from their eyes and finally get to see what a mess the SNP have made of running their country to date. By then of course it will be too late but i do wish them luck as they are a great nation. I'm sorry, but in what way do you see the SNP making a mess of running Scotland? I think you may be falling into the trap of believing everything you read in the pro-unionist press or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Unless you live and work in Scotland,(and I'm guessing you don't) the only way you can evaluate the success or failure of the Holyrood Government is from what you see and read in the media. Let me tell you that there are many hundreds of thousands of Scots happy with the way the SNP run things. Why else would we turn out in such large numbers and vote for them? Of course, there are many SNP supporters that want independence but there are also many who don't. The SNP is not just about independence despite what you may see and read. They're also about a fairer, more just and tolerant society. Don't believe everything that's put out by the pro-unionist press. " I'd be all for their "fairer, more just" society... if they were paying with their own money... but they aint! Scotland (according to independent economists) would fall on its arse rather spectacularly if it were Independent now, they would have to cut costs and raise taxes in a manner that would make "austerity measures" look like Utopia!  | |||
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" Well seen as money is not devolved to Scotland right and the GERS was set up by the Tories so those figures the Scottish government have to go with as again money is not devolved. Also Kevin Hague confirmed on live radio that GERS figures is totally irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland. What it does clearly show is Westminster governments have shafted Scotland and their mis management of finances Hands up how many of you trust the Tories with finances? Seen as they are the party that is missing ALL targets and borrowing and adding to the UK debt ? First of all, I only asked what law you claimed meant the Scottish Government had to publish Gers. If you don't know or realise now that there isn't one you could just have said so. Also, to address the above 1) Money IS devolved to Scotland. You may have noticed the Scottish budget that the Scottish parliament sets every year. 2) Gers figures have been completely revamped and refined by the SNP (much of the work done by their pet economists, the Cuthberts). They are, in the SNP's own words 'the definitive figures on Scotland's finances' 3) Gers are produced by Civil Servants in the Scottish Govt, not the UK Govt 4) Kevin Hague didn't say that at all. If you are interested in a real debate rather than trolling you should do some fact checking. He repeated what he has always said about Gers. 5) The Gers figures don't show the Westminster govt have shafted us, they show the exact opposite, i.e. we receive a huge fiscal transfer of over £9bn more than we raised last year. This is due to the barnett formula. 6) The Scottish parliament is responsible for the majority of the economy in Scotland. If anyone has mismanaged the economy it is them (and the figures show it's got much much worse under their leadership) 7) The Scottish govt's deficit is far higher than the UK govt as a whole. If you wish to talk about missing targets then they are failing badly in most areas. I'm happy to debate the Gers figures and finances in detail if you are but I get the feeling from your post that you either don't understand them, haven't actually looked at them in any detail, or rely on pro indy sites for others to tell you what you should believe about them. If you investigate them yourself I think your beliefs may be rather shaken. money is not devolved to Scotland. Are you really saying any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland ? Or does it infact get send to Westminster ? The budget is set by Westmister through Barnett and the Scottish government then get to spent that budget on things like the NHS which yes is devolved and any money that is underspend carries on to the next year and does NOT get set to Westminster it did use to get Send back to Westminster by Labour governments in Scotland imagine that eh sending money that was underspend to Westminster how utter crazy is that ? Well at least you dont need to worry about that happening now. Yes he did say on radio that GERS does not show what an independent Scotland would look like finally he did admit it/ Scotland is in the UK so yes it does show you how Westminster shaft Scotland. 1) You may want to check the definition of 'devolved'. It's clear you don't know what it means. 2) The Scottish Govt sets their budget, for example they can spend as much or as little as they want on the NHS 3) Kevin Hague has repeatedly (on many occasions) said the Gers figures show the starting point for an independent Scotland. It's up to the SNP to show how the figures would change post independence and so far they've been unable to do that. For example, if they say Scotland would raise more revenue then they have to show how they'd do that (and more importantly why they are doing it now with all the powers they have) 4) Your last comment comes accross as being childish. Repeating a statement continually doesn't make make it a fact. If you believe Gers show Westminster is shafting Scotland then tell us where exactly, is it on the Revenue side or the Expenditure side? Which pages of Gers point out this 'shafting'? And have you even read the Gers report? I'm numbering these replies to make them easy to address individually but I'm not sure you're interested in actual debate as you either can't or won't respond to each of them. You've completely ignored a lot of areas on this thread where you've been proven to be wrong." So are you saying any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland ? Yes thats true as the NHS is devolved to Scotland then yes the Scottish government can spent on that and everything else that is devolved but the money is not devolved thats reserved to Westminster. Hell the Scottish Government even tried for FFA but that was rejected. Kevin Hague also quote this '' What the GERS figures do tell us is, historically, how do Scotland’s revenue and expenditure figures look as an integral part of the UK'' What what GERS shows us is that under the UK and its the mismanagement of Westminster governments Hands up how many pro union supporters trust the the Tories with the economy ? and the finances? Trillions in debt and only adding to that debt is nothing to be proud of and ts not a great selling point is it for staying in the union the Scottish voters rject the Tories and their cuts yet have to suffer the Tories racking up a debt and cuts Scotland rejects. Childish ? No its was point out fact. Tell me why it is so great to be in a union when Scotland rejects the Tories but has to suffer the Tories why do you want that ? When you can have an independent Scotland that the Scottish voters vote for the party they want to govern Scotland. And when i say that i mean have full control over everything not to be told by the Tories and unelected dickheads what powers Scotland should get. Where is Home Rule do none of you care about that promise now ? | |||
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"They would start with a deficit. No ones hiding that. Plenty countries all over the world have deficits, except a very fortunate few including Norway but they've got oil. Different ways of dealing with deficits, Tories prefer austerity, hitting the poorest hardest (as IDS admitted on Marr, scandalously, because "they don't vote for us" That's not the only way to deal with it though, borrowing to stimulate growth through increased infrastructure spending is part of a different solution. I don't think anyone is saying it would be a land of milk and honey, but surely the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" argument is finished. It wouldn't just be a deficit, it would be a massive unsustainable deficit. It's far higher than any other EU country for example. You can't borrow your way out of such a huge deficit. The markets would be wary of lending (especially if there was a new currency) and if they did the rates and conditions would be so high that it could hamstring the country for many years to come. There's 2 ways to do it. Increased revenue through taxes (and it's too big for that) or cuts to public expenditure. It would need a combination of both but to give an example of what that would be like So let's look at raising taxes to see if it's possible to make up the £9bn (additional) deficit: Well, no. £9bn is 77% of Scotland's entire income tax take for a year so there's no amount of tax increases could make up this amount. There are only around 17,000 higher rate tax payers in Scotland according to HMRC (those who pay the 45p rate). At the last election the SNP refused to increase this to the 50p rate saying that doing so would reduce revenues by £30m (as people look at avoidance methods or moving their tax base to England etc). So let's look at cuts to public expenditure to reduce the deficit: The cuts would have to be in every single area, Benefits, Pensions, Housing, Local Authorities, Health, Education, Public Order etc etc. Every single one would see cuts on a scale never seen before. As a comparison, the cuts to public spending during the austerity years of 2009 - 2015 were 2.3% but this would require cuts of an eye watering 13% !!!" You say a "massive, unsustainable deficit" It wouldn't be higher than the UK's was around seven years ago. Did we decide then that the country couldn't function? Did we call in the IMF or the World Bank? No. The Tories started to reduce it. They said they'd eliminate it by 2015, then by 2018, then 2020 and now won't say when.....but the point is it's coming down. Now parties on both sides of the spectrum can argue how best to reduce it, but the point stands...having a deficit shouldn't be a de facto case against being independent. And as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread and many others, if our economy is such a basket case...shouldn't we be taking over from the folk who run it? | |||
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" Well seen as money is not devolved to Scotland right and the GERS was set up by the Tories so those figures the Scottish government have to go with as again money is not devolved. Also Kevin Hague confirmed on live radio that GERS figures is totally irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland. What it does clearly show is Westminster governments have shafted Scotland and their mis management of finances Hands up how many of you trust the Tories with finances? Seen as they are the party that is missing ALL targets and borrowing and adding to the UK debt ? First of all, I only asked what law you claimed meant the Scottish Government had to publish Gers. If you don't know or realise now that there isn't one you could just have said so. Also, to address the above 1) Money IS devolved to Scotland. You may have noticed the Scottish budget that the Scottish parliament sets every year. 2) Gers figures have been completely revamped and refined by the SNP (much of the work done by their pet economists, the Cuthberts). They are, in the SNP's own words 'the definitive figures on Scotland's finances' 3) Gers are produced by Civil Servants in the Scottish Govt, not the UK Govt 4) Kevin Hague didn't say that at all. If you are interested in a real debate rather than trolling you should do some fact checking. He repeated what he has always said about Gers. 5) The Gers figures don't show the Westminster govt have shafted us, they show the exact opposite, i.e. we receive a huge fiscal transfer of over £9bn more than we raised last year. This is due to the barnett formula. 6) The Scottish parliament is responsible for the majority of the economy in Scotland. If anyone has mismanaged the economy it is them (and the figures show it's got much much worse under their leadership) 7) The Scottish govt's deficit is far higher than the UK govt as a whole. If you wish to talk about missing targets then they are failing badly in most areas. I'm happy to debate the Gers figures and finances in detail if you are but I get the feeling from your post that you either don't understand them, haven't actually looked at them in any detail, or rely on pro indy sites for others to tell you what you should believe about them. If you investigate them yourself I think your beliefs may be rather shaken. money is not devolved to Scotland. Are you really saying any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland ? Or does it infact get send to Westminster ? The budget is set by Westmister through Barnett and the Scottish government then get to spent that budget on things like the NHS which yes is devolved and any money that is underspend carries on to the next year and does NOT get set to Westminster it did use to get Send back to Westminster by Labour governments in Scotland imagine that eh sending money that was underspend to Westminster how utter crazy is that ? Well at least you dont need to worry about that happening now. Yes he did say on radio that GERS does not show what an independent Scotland would look like finally he did admit it/ Scotland is in the UK so yes it does show you how Westminster shaft Scotland. 1) You may want to check the definition of 'devolved'. It's clear you don't know what it means. 2) The Scottish Govt sets their budget, for example they can spend as much or as little as they want on the NHS 3) Kevin Hague has repeatedly (on many occasions) said the Gers figures show the starting point for an independent Scotland. It's up to the SNP to show how the figures would change post independence and so far they've been unable to do that. For example, if they say Scotland would raise more revenue then they have to show how they'd do that (and more importantly why they are doing it now with all the powers they have) 4) Your last comment comes accross as being childish. Repeating a statement continually doesn't make make it a fact. If you believe Gers show Westminster is shafting Scotland then tell us where exactly, is it on the Revenue side or the Expenditure side? Which pages of Gers point out this 'shafting'? And have you even read the Gers report? I'm numbering these replies to make them easy to address individually but I'm not sure you're interested in actual debate as you either can't or won't respond to each of them. You've completely ignored a lot of areas on this thread where you've been proven to be wrong. So are you saying any money raised in Scotland stays in Scotland ? Yes thats true as the NHS is devolved to Scotland then yes the Scottish government can spent on that and everything else that is devolved but the money is not devolved thats reserved to Westminster. Hell the Scottish Government even tried for FFA but that was rejected. Kevin Hague also quote this '' What the GERS figures do tell us is, historically, how do Scotland’s revenue and expenditure figures look as an integral part of the UK'' What what GERS shows us is that under the UK and its the mismanagement of Westminster governments Hands up how many pro union supporters trust the the Tories with the economy ? and the finances? Trillions in debt and only adding to that debt is nothing to be proud of and ts not a great selling point is it for staying in the union the Scottish voters rject the Tories and their cuts yet have to suffer the Tories racking up a debt and cuts Scotland rejects. Childish ? No its was point out fact. Tell me why it is so great to be in a union when Scotland rejects the Tories but has to suffer the Tories why do you want that ? When you can have an independent Scotland that the Scottish voters vote for the party they want to govern Scotland. And when i say that i mean have full control over everything not to be told by the Tories and unelected dickheads what powers Scotland should get. Where is Home Rule do none of you care about that promise now ? " You're continually going to ignore the Gers questions aren't you? Which pages in the Gers report back up your nonsensical claims? | |||
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" You say a "massive, unsustainable deficit" It wouldn't be higher than the UK's was around seven years ago. Did we decide then that the country couldn't function? Did we call in the IMF or the World Bank? No. The Tories started to reduce it. They said they'd eliminate it by 2015, then by 2018, then 2020 and now won't say when.....but the point is it's coming down. Now parties on both sides of the spectrum can argue how best to reduce it, but the point stands...having a deficit shouldn't be a de facto case against being independent. And as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread and many others, if our economy is such a basket case...shouldn't we be taking over from the folk who run it?" The UK deficit was higher for one year only and tha was due to the shock of the financial crash. The same thing happened in many other countries at the same time. We're now out of that unprecedented (in our lifetime) period and yet Scoland's deficit is massive and is increasing rather than coming down. Everyone else is going in the opposite direction. This isn't due to a global recession. If you really believe there wouldn't be massive cuts to deal with the deficit then check out the leaked Swinney document from 2014 about how to address any drop in the oil price post independence. It gives a fair bit of detail about what would happen and basically involves.....cuts. Your final point about the economy being a basket case and taking over the economy from the folk who run it is a strange one. The Scottish govt run our economy. If it was the UK govt then you have to ask, why is the Scottish economy going in the opposite direction from the rest of the UK? What economic policies are the UK govt enacting in Scotland that are different from those in the rest of the UK and how are they able to do this? The simple answer is that the Scottish economy is run by the Scottish parliament. | |||
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"what do you think Nicola Sturgeon will do? The SNP are building their hopes on winning as many seats if not more at the next General Election. If Scotland doesn't return as many SNP MPs do you think Nicola will give up on the independence referendum? " Absolutely not and why should she? what is wrong with Scotland being an independent country, working side by side with England as two equals? | |||
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"No she would rather die than give up I reckon,it is her mission to free Scotland and destroy England if she can I reckon. More dangerous than ISIS maybe" We don't need Sturgeon to destroy England, Scotland or the UK. We've started the process in England and Wales all by ourselves by voting for BREXIT in the first place. | |||
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" Trade and financial companies will always go where the money is....It will not be in an independent Scotland." and it won't be a post brexit England either so no problem on that front. | |||
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"what do you think Nicola Sturgeon will do? The SNP are building their hopes on winning as many seats if not more at the next General Election. If Scotland doesn't return as many SNP MPs do you think Nicola will give up on the independence referendum? Absolutely not and why should she? what is wrong with Scotland being an independent country, working side by side with England as two equals?" I think that's a bit unrealistic, all most as unrealistic as BTEXITers that believe we're going to carry on trading with the EU after BREXIT just as we do now. I think the reality is is that both breakups (the UK from the EU and Scotland from the UK) will bring nothing of real benefit to anyone and leave a lot of bad feelings and animosity on all sides. When Ireland left the UK it took almost 50 years (and a lot of blood) before the Republic and the UK could sit down properly again and work together in their own best interests. Division is never good. But, whilst I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, some remarks by pro-union people, especially some of the English, are just ridiculous. When the English (not me personally) voted for BREXIT they knew they were also voting for another Scottish independence referendum, the possible reintroduction of a hard border in Ireland and/or the potential breakup of the UK but they voted for it anyway. Stop winging on about it's not democratic, you voted for it. All that being said I think a Scotland, outside the UK but in the EU would be economically worse off than a Scotland in the UK but outside the EU. But then can the English, who just voted against the their own best economic interests, really expect the Scots not to do the same and 'take back control' themselves? BREXITers have opened Pandora's Box and every single argument they used against the EU applies 10 times more for Scotland against the UK. Well done BREXITers, you voted to smash up the UK to. | |||
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"what do you think Nicola Sturgeon will do? The SNP are building their hopes on winning as many seats if not more at the next General Election. If Scotland doesn't return as many SNP MPs do you think Nicola will give up on the independence referendum? Absolutely not and why should she? what is wrong with Scotland being an independent country, working side by side with England as two equals? I think that's a bit unrealistic, all most as unrealistic as BTEXITers that believe we're going to carry on trading with the EU after BREXIT just as we do now. I think the reality is is that both breakups (the UK from the EU and Scotland from the UK) will bring nothing of real benefit to anyone and leave a lot of bad feelings and animosity on all sides. When Ireland left the UK it took almost 50 years (and a lot of blood) before the Republic and the UK could sit down properly again and work together in their own best interests. Division is never good. But, whilst I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, some remarks by pro-union people, especially some of the English, are just ridiculous. When the English (not me personally) voted for BREXIT they knew they were also voting for another Scottish independence referendum, the possible reintroduction of a hard border in Ireland and/or the potential breakup of the UK but they voted for it anyway. Stop winging on about it's not democratic, you voted for it. All that being said I think a Scotland, outside the UK but in the EU would be economically worse off than a Scotland in the UK but outside the EU. But then can the English, who just voted against the their own best economic interests, really expect the Scots not to do the same and 'take back control' themselves? BREXITers have opened Pandora's Box and every single argument they used against the EU applies 10 times more for Scotland against the UK. Well done BREXITers, you voted to smash up the UK to." Perhaps, in your estimates - 50 years for the Irish The people of Scotland are a very different breed, they will never accept what happened with the Highland Clearance's and continue to bare grudge to that today. the Clearances are probably the worst and the one that still engenders great bitterness down to this day. Whether it was economic necessity as described by some, or ethnic cleansing, as described by others, the nett result was that between 1783 and 1881 man's inhumanity to man resulted in a documented 170,571 Highlanders being ejected from their traditional lands. Records are very sparse and it's been estimated that the true total was very much greater than this. The people of Scotland will never forget, do you blame them for wishing to wash their hands of the English? | |||
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"What is unfair is that the SNP can have 54 seats with fewer votes than one seat in England! I dont think that is Snp or any other parties fault. Boundary commission would be who you are looking at in regards to seats, and as far as im aware they arent linked to any political party. " Also not a system of voting they support. | |||
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"Highland clearances is why some want independence ?.......God that is sad and so untrue i have yet to hear that brought up as a reason.......But clutching at straws is now becoming a Nationalist trademark....It will not be the total number of seats St Nicola wins but the popular vote that will determine the future xx" How many voted on Brexit because 'we won the war'? Don't agree present day voting should dwell on the past either but so much of Brexit was sold on past 'glories', and a bus. | |||
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" The people of Scotland are a very different breed, they will never accept what happened with the Highland Clearance's and continue to bare grudge to that today. the Clearances are probably the worst and the one that still engenders great bitterness down to this day. Whether it was economic necessity as described by some, or ethnic cleansing, as described by others, the nett result was that between 1783 and 1881 man's inhumanity to man resulted in a documented 170,571 Highlanders being ejected from their traditional lands. Records are very sparse and it's been estimated that the true total was very much greater than this. The people of Scotland will never forget, do you blame them for wishing to wash their hands of the English? " I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. Let me start by saying I'm in favour of independence but to suggest that the clearances are a possible argument for it is completely off the mark. The clearances, like so much of the mistreatment of the Scottish people was perpetrated, in the main, by Scottish land owners, not the English. Scots have suffered at the hands of the ruling elite for centuries, we've been exploited and betrayed by them usually because they, in turn, have held their position thanks to the English coin. They could have chosen to protect their people, some did, but most went with the prestige and the money. I'm a born Highlander and proud to call myself so and my father was a native Gail before me. Historically, the English exploited the Scots as they did with so many nations around the globe but they needed the complicity of the Scottish elite to make it work. | |||
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" The people of Scotland are a very different breed, they will never accept what happened with the Highland Clearance's and continue to bare grudge to that today. the Clearances are probably the worst and the one that still engenders great bitterness down to this day. Whether it was economic necessity as described by some, or ethnic cleansing, as described by others, the nett result was that between 1783 and 1881 man's inhumanity to man resulted in a documented 170,571 Highlanders being ejected from their traditional lands. Records are very sparse and it's been estimated that the true total was very much greater than this. The people of Scotland will never forget, do you blame them for wishing to wash their hands of the English? " The people of Scotland are holding a grudge about the Highland clearances? Are you serious you rocket lol, it's 2017 here. | |||
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" Historically, the English exploited the Scots as they did with so many nations around the globe but they needed the complicity of the Scottish elite to make it work. " What happened to the Scottish economy following the act of Union? | |||
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" The people of Scotland are a very different breed, they will never accept what happened with the Highland Clearance's and continue to bare grudge to that today. the Clearances are probably the worst and the one that still engenders great bitterness down to this day. Whether it was economic necessity as described by some, or ethnic cleansing, as described by others, the nett result was that between 1783 and 1881 man's inhumanity to man resulted in a documented 170,571 Highlanders being ejected from their traditional lands. Records are very sparse and it's been estimated that the true total was very much greater than this. The people of Scotland will never forget, do you blame them for wishing to wash their hands of the English? The people of Scotland are holding a grudge about the Highland clearances? Are you serious you rocket lol, it's 2017 here." And yet the Irish still sing songs,from 1690? Are they serious,you rocket lol. It's 2017 everywhere. | |||
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"Highland clearances is why some want independence ?.......God that is sad and so untrue i have yet to hear that brought up as a reason.......But clutching at straws is now becoming a Nationalist trademark....It will not be the total number of seats St Nicola wins but the popular vote that will determine the future xx" what part of this do you not understand I was replying to? When Ireland left the UK it took almost 50 years (and a lot of blood) before the Republic and the UK could sit down properly again and work together in their own best interests. Division is never good. | |||
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" Historically, the English exploited the Scots as they did with so many nations around the globe but they needed the complicity of the Scottish elite to make it work. What happened to the Scottish economy following the act of Union?" I am referring to life in the Highlands. It's hard to see any financial benefit when you don't actually have any finances and your entire life is dependent on the whims of the man that owns the house and land you live on. The Act of Union benefited the few, not the many. A bit like life under the Tories today. | |||
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"The English exploited the Scots ? what you really mean is the Landed gentry exploited the common man of all Uk nations.......Glasgow was not the second city of the Empire because we were forced to do all that nasty slave trading and fighting wars, by the nasty English... "You need to re read my post. I said exactly that. That it was the Scottish ruling elite (who were, in turn, in thrall to the English ruling elite) that were the main cause of the Highland clearances. It's the same principal that they used in all the other countries around the globe that Britain exploited. Get the ruling elite on side by promising power and wealth and get them to exploit their own subjects. All I was trying to say was that it was ridiculous to blame the English for the Highland clearances when all the dirty work was done by Scots to Scots. It's a class thing, not a race thing. | |||
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It shows that the indy vote is split in two parts, some want EU and don't.
Scotland, constitutional pref:
Independent & in the EU: 41%
Independent & out the EU: 10%
In the UK & out the EU: 48%
(Panelbase 18-21/04)
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"Where is this poll that gives 51% go independence? Is it the one where you aggregate the answer from two different questions from Panelbase? And you believe it?
It shows that the indy vote is split in two parts, some want EU and don't.
Scotland, constitutional pref:
Independent & in the EU: 41%
Independent & out the EU: 10%
In the UK & out the EU: 48%
(Panelbase 18-21/04)
"Do i believe it ? I dont really care about polls as they will never ever give the true figure now giving people in Scotland the question in a referendum will but we all know the pro union side is shite feart to allow that. Does not change the fact 51% want independence. I told you why is it when support shows in favor of independence the pro union side dont like it but when its in favor of the union they love quoting polls. I dont really care about polls but what i do find interesting is the ones that do love quoting them and as soon as it doesnt go in their way they go in a huff. | |||
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"Lets go to the source of this, the Panalbase/Times poll. Heres a link to the dataset tables and breakdowns, here: http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls/W7181w11tablesforpublication210417.pdf And how would you vote in response to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country (Likely voter) YES 43% NO 52% DK 5% Once again your interpretation skills are sadly lacking, thats the straight answer to a straight question. ?? " I took part in that Panelbase/Times Poll I voted NO I Lied | |||
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"Do you often lie? Admitting that you did makes you look dishonest and untrustworthy. " I am often dishonest in polls such as the above as well as YOUGOV and others, it appears I am not the only one Look over the past few years how accurate polls are. You may consider me as dishonest and untrustworthy, but then you are not a true friend, so you will never know. I take it, you keep your lies secret  | |||
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"Gone a bit off topic. If the SNP lose a significant number of seats that's surely a sign to Nicola that we don't like what she's doing? By winning 56 seats last time it obviously told her the majority do like what she is doing . Time will tell , but i honestly cant see snp losing many . Local elections on 4th will maybe give some indication on which way scotland will head." The key thing might not be number of seats won, but rather vote share, in 2015 the SNP got 50% of votes in Scotland. | |||
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" The people of Scotland are a very different breed, they will never accept what happened with the Highland Clearance's and continue to bare grudge to that today. the Clearances are probably the worst and the one that still engenders great bitterness down to this day. Whether it was economic necessity as described by some, or ethnic cleansing, as described by others, the nett result was that between 1783 and 1881 man's inhumanity to man resulted in a documented 170,571 Highlanders being ejected from their traditional lands. Records are very sparse and it's been estimated that the true total was very much greater than this. The people of Scotland will never forget, do you blame them for wishing to wash their hands of the English? The people of Scotland are holding a grudge about the Highland clearances? Are you serious you rocket lol, it's 2017 here. And yet the Irish still sing songs,from 1690? Are they serious,you rocket lol. It's 2017 everywhere. "What does that have to do with Scottish independence and the oocasional nut going on about the clearances? | |||
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"This will be the day Scotland's voters will send the Tories a message saying we reject them yet again. Also, can anyone name a policy from the Tories in this council election? We all know they we hell bend on stopping a democratic vote on an independence referendum but can anyone honestly name a policy on what the Scottish Tories will do to help local council services? " Bit of an epic fail with that prediction. | |||
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"This will be the day Scotland's voters will send the Tories a message saying we reject them yet again. Also, can anyone name a policy from the Tories in this council election? We all know they we hell bend on stopping a democratic vote on an independence referendum but can anyone honestly name a policy on what the Scottish Tories will do to help local council services? Bit of an epic fail with that prediction." Why is it a fail ? SNP 431 seats and the Tories 276 which party won the council elections ? So yes Scotland send the Tories a message by the SNP winning yet again. Can you honestly name one policy the Tories said they will do to help local councils ? | |||
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"It's hardly saying we reject them once again when they have won more than double the seats they did last time. That should be obvious." Erm yes it is. Scottish voters have once again rejected the Tories So what the Tories gained seats they didnt win the election they came 2nd and all because Labour voters jumped ship and voted Tory. Have you seen the way the BBC have tried to spin this pish claiming the SNP have lost 7 seats then its 30 seats how fucking embarrassing they really are and down right fucking liars Take a a wee swatch and the last Scottish council elections in 2012 the SNP got 425 and in 2017 SNP get 431 now anyone like to tell me how in the hell does that sound like the SNP lost seats ? More like the gained 7 seats Thats the great BBC at work fucking lying to you and yet paying will still give them £147 anfor them to lie. | |||
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"It's hardly saying we reject them once again when they have won more than double the seats they did last time. That should be obvious. Erm yes it is. Scottish voters have once again rejected the Tories So what the Tories gained seats they didnt win the election they came 2nd and all because Labour voters jumped ship and voted Tory. Have you seen the way the BBC have tried to spin this pish claiming the SNP have lost 7 seats then its 30 seats how fucking embarrassing they really are and down right fucking liars Take a a wee swatch and the last Scottish council elections in 2012 the SNP got 425 and in 2017 SNP get 431 now anyone like to tell me how in the hell does that sound like the SNP lost seats ? More like the gained 7 seats Thats the great BBC at work fucking lying to you and yet paying will still give them £147 anfor them to lie. " It's local council elections, no party 'wins' it unless you break it down to parties who have gained a clear majority in individual councils, something no party has managed. You seem like an angry little man but I'll help out with the BBC. As ever your rant is probably based on something you've read on a pro-indy site and you haven't looked for yourself but if you check the BBC site and how they've calculated the figures based on the boundary changes since 2012 you'll find the clear answer. It's not difficult... | |||
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"It's hardly saying we reject them once again when they have won more than double the seats they did last time. That should be obvious. Erm yes it is. Scottish voters have once again rejected the Tories So what the Tories gained seats they didnt win the election they came 2nd and all because Labour voters jumped ship and voted Tory. Have you seen the way the BBC have tried to spin this pish claiming the SNP have lost 7 seats then its 30 seats how fucking embarrassing they really are and down right fucking liars Take a a wee swatch and the last Scottish council elections in 2012 the SNP got 425 and in 2017 SNP get 431 now anyone like to tell me how in the hell does that sound like the SNP lost seats ? More like the gained 7 seats Thats the great BBC at work fucking lying to you and yet paying will still give them £147 anfor them to lie. It's local council elections, no party 'wins' it unless you break it down to parties who have gained a clear majority in individual councils, something no party has managed. You seem like an angry little man but I'll help out with the BBC. As ever your rant is probably based on something you've read on a pro-indy site and you haven't looked for yourself but if you check the BBC site and how they've calculated the figures based on the boundary changes since 2012 you'll find the clear answer. It's not difficult..." Nope am happy the Tories once again have been told to fuck off Are you honestly happy to see Tory gains in Scotland ? No no its pretty easy for people to work out the BBC are lying 425 in 2012 and 431 in 2017 is SNP gaining seats not hard to work out. | |||
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Honestly, it's a very simple explanation and indeed the methodology was explained a month ago. | |||
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"So, using Kinky's much heralded figures, the SNP gained 1.04% in these elections!" Don't know if this figure is correct or not but what many people aren't taking into account is that this is based on the previous results in 2012 and the SNP had a large surge in support after this around the time of the indy referendum n 2014. So if their share of the vote is only up 1.04% on 2012 then that means it's likely down a fair bit on the level they peaked at in 2014 or 2015. Of course we'll get a better idea of this at the General Election but almost everyone is expecting their share of the vote to drop. | |||
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" The people of Scotland are a very different breed, they will never accept what happened with the Highland Clearance's and continue to bare grudge to that today. the Clearances are probably the worst and the one that still engenders great bitterness down to this day. Whether it was economic necessity as described by some, or ethnic cleansing, as described by others, the nett result was that between 1783 and 1881 man's inhumanity to man resulted in a documented 170,571 Highlanders being ejected from their traditional lands. Records are very sparse and it's been estimated that the true total was very much greater than this. The people of Scotland will never forget, do you blame them for wishing to wash their hands of the English? The people of Scotland are holding a grudge about the Highland clearances? Are you serious you rocket lol, it's 2017 here. And yet the Irish still sing songs,from 1690? Are they serious,you rocket lol. It's 2017 everywhere.
What does that have to do with Scottish independence and the oocasional nut going on about the clearances? "I was agreeing with you. That was just an example, To show it's not only the Scots, Who are sad enough, to be influenced,and driven by, events of the past. Your right,Ffs Let it go, It's 2017. | |||
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"So, using Kinky's much heralded figures, the SNP gained 1.04% in these elections! Don't know if this figure is correct or not but what many people aren't taking into account is that this is based on the previous results in 2012 and the SNP had a large surge in support after this around the time of the indy referendum n 2014. So if their share of the vote is only up 1.04% on 2012 then that means it's likely down a fair bit on the level they peaked at in 2014 or 2015. Of course we'll get a better idea of this at the General Election but almost everyone is expecting their share of the vote to drop." They also lost seats at the 2016 Holyrood elections. I can understand the jubilation of the SNp supporters but they do seem to lose sight of the bigger picture. | |||
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