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Is it just me?
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
Am I the only one who is fed up with seeing people talk about us having an unelected Prime Minister?
Are people really so uneducated that they don't know what they're voting for?
For clarification, people are supposed to vote for an MP in their area whose party policies best represent their needs/desires. The party who wins overall will become the Government and usually the leader of the party becomes Prime Minister.
If a Prime Minister leaves in between general elections, a new leader is voted in BY MEMBERS OF THAT PARTY.
The general public do NOT vote for a Prime Minister.... ever. Please stop mentioning unelected Prime Ministers in a pathetic attempt to discredit a party.
Also, many need to learn the difference between "debt" and "deficit". Then blithely stating that the Tories raised the national debt would be shown to be rubbish. The debt will rise until the deficit has gone. The deficit is big, it was massive. It could have been removed quickly, providing nobody wanted any government money for anything for a year..... funny but that wouldn't happen!
/rant
Sorry but I see these two ill-informed opinions so often that it's driving me mad.  |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
If a leader of a party doesn't get elected at a GE, then I'm not sure if they could take a peerage and then come from the Lords to the Commons?
I think this was more prevalent in Victorian times but not sure if the mechanism is still there.
12 out of the last 24 Prime Ministers spanning the last 100 years have taken office mid term. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Two points:
I've met god knows how many people who: A) Believe they are voting for the PM.
B) Vote for the party they want in's candidate in their area, regardless of that potential MP's interests and history. These are the people who then often complain about what is not/what is going wrong in their area.
Second point:
I have no issue with a PM who has inherited their position from a prior PM who resigned, especially when the last GE was such a short span of time away.
However, inheriting their post means inheriting the prior PM's manifesto. As such that PM must stick to that manifesto otherwise you have the ability for a party to avoid the democratic process and slip things through which they were not elected for.
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"Two points:
I've met god knows how many people who: A) Believe they are voting for the PM.
B) Vote for the party they want in's candidate in their area, regardless of that potential MP's interests and history. These are the people who then often complain about what is not/what is going wrong in their area.
Second point:
I have no issue with a PM who has inherited their position from a prior PM who resigned, especially when the last GE was such a short span of time away.
However, inheriting their post means inheriting the prior PM's manifesto. As such that PM must stick to that manifesto otherwise you have the ability for a party to avoid the democratic process and slip things through which they were not elected for.
"
No party sticks to the manifesto for the full term, things change problems arise which have to be dealt with, therefore manifestos and pledges have to change |
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"Am I the only one who is fed up with seeing people talk about us having an unelected Prime Minister?
Are people really so uneducated that they don't know what they're voting for?
For clarification, people are supposed to vote for an MP in their area whose party policies best represent their needs/desires. The party who wins overall will become the Government and usually the leader of the party becomes Prime Minister.
If a Prime Minister leaves in between general elections, a new leader is voted in BY MEMBERS OF THAT PARTY.
The general public do NOT vote for a Prime Minister.... ever. Please stop mentioning unelected Prime Ministers in a pathetic attempt to discredit a party.
Also, many need to learn the difference between "debt" and "deficit". Then blithely stating that the Tories raised the national debt would be shown to be rubbish. The debt will rise until the deficit has gone. The deficit is big, it was massive. It could have been removed quickly, providing nobody wanted any government money for anything for a year..... funny but that wouldn't happen!
/rant
Sorry but I see these two ill-informed opinions so often that it's driving me mad. "
Well said...  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Two points:
I've met god knows how many people who: A) Believe they are voting for the PM.
B) Vote for the party they want in's candidate in their area, regardless of that potential MP's interests and history. These are the people who then often complain about what is not/what is going wrong in their area.
Second point:
I have no issue with a PM who has inherited their position from a prior PM who resigned, especially when the last GE was such a short span of time away.
However, inheriting their post means inheriting the prior PM's manifesto. As such that PM must stick to that manifesto otherwise you have the ability for a party to avoid the democratic process and slip things through which they were not elected for.
No party sticks to the manifesto for the full term, things change problems arise which have to be dealt with, therefore manifestos and pledges have to change"
People vote for a party/their mp's based on party manifestos.
Yes things change.
However you cannot do something which flies in the face of your manifesto.
This is the issue with the current PM. She is frequently putting things forward which contradict the manifesto she inherited.
Brexit is not an excuse to ignore or overwrite the pledges her party made.
Many people would say this flies in the face of our democratic system.... |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
Although technically you are correct, that only the people in the constituency actually vote for the PM, I think you are ignoring the way that UK system works.
Do you think that a party would get as many votes if they went into a GE campaign without a leader, saying they will decide after the election? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Although technically you are correct, that only the people in the constituency actually vote for the PM, I think you are ignoring the way that UK system works.
Do you think that a party would get as many votes if they went into a GE campaign without a leader, saying they will decide after the election?"
There will be many voters swayed by the leader of a party either for or against for their vote irrespective of policies of the party. |
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
"Although technically you are correct, that only the people in the constituency actually vote for the PM, I think you are ignoring the way that UK system works.
Do you think that a party would get as many votes if they went into a GE campaign without a leader, saying they will decide after the election?"
I'm not ignoring it, just hate the fact that people keep saying we have an unelected Prime Minister. Not just this one but any of the previous ones. Those who try to use that statement to make them look less legitimate are simply spreading ignorance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I'm not ignoring it, just hate the fact that people keep saying we have an unelected Prime Minister. Not just this one but any of the previous ones. Those who try to use that statement to make them look less legitimate are simply spreading ignorance. "
I agree with you 100% and you'd most probably find the one's spouting off about unelected PM's didn't vote for that party either but would keep stum if it was their party of choice in government changing leader. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Am I the only one who is fed up with seeing people talk about us having an unelected Prime Minister?
Are people really so uneducated that they don't know what they're voting for?
For clarification, people are supposed to vote for an MP in their area whose party policies best represent their needs/desires. The party who wins overall will become the Government and usually the leader of the party becomes Prime Minister.
If a Prime Minister leaves in between general elections, a new leader is voted in BY MEMBERS OF THAT PARTY.
The general public do NOT vote for a Prime Minister.... ever. Please stop mentioning unelected Prime Ministers in a pathetic attempt to discredit a party.
Also, many need to learn the difference between "debt" and "deficit". Then blithely stating that the Tories raised the national debt would be shown to be rubbish. The debt will rise until the deficit has gone. The deficit is big, it was massive. It could have been removed quickly, providing nobody wanted any government money for anything for a year..... funny but that wouldn't happen!
/rant
Sorry but I see these two ill-informed opinions so often that it's driving me mad. "
You are 100% correct and I studied British politics,the others are wrong and your right. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Idk if anyone read what I put but I'm not contesting the whole unelected PM stuff. And yes, I'm well aware it has happened in the past with other parties/PM's.
However, it is a contradiction of democracy if a PM inherits her position and does not atleast try to keep to the manifesto their predecessors were elected on.
This can be clearly seen with what happened earlier this year with the N.I tax rise Hammond planned, when the manifesto they have inherited says specifically that was not an option. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
No party ever keeps to its manifesto.
I think the manifesto should be split into two parts- a legally binding "Will Do", and a non-legally binding "would like to do". Not sure how you would enforce it legally though, maybe massive fines or criminal proceedings against the cabinet accepting the responsibility of government?
But then there would have to be a caveat that the opposition cannot stop the legally binding part if a manifesto.
I also think that every manifesto should be independently analysed, costed and verified. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No party ever keeps to its manifesto.
I think the manifesto should be split into two parts- a legally binding "Will Do", and a non-legally binding "would like to do". Not sure how you would enforce it legally though, maybe massive fines or criminal proceedings against the cabinet accepting the responsibility of government?
But then there would have to be a caveat that the opposition cannot stop the legally binding part if a manifesto.
I also think that every manifesto should be independently analysed, costed and verified. "
Agreed on everything, except on the opposition not being able to oppose 'legally binding' pledges.
They should be able to oppose it, lets face it, if it's a good idea, it'll go through with minimal resistance.
On the how do you enforce the 'no breaking rule of will do pledges', if such an issue occurs, the ministers and leader involved could be taken to court. That way the count can decide whether it was a deliberate misleading of the public and abuse of power, or simply 'you didn't keep to it because circumstances changed and there was no option.'
If they are found guilty of abusing power, bar them from ever holding political power as a punishment and message. If it was unavoidable, fine them appropriately? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"No party ever keeps to its manifesto.
I think the manifesto should be split into two parts- a legally binding "Will Do", and a non-legally binding "would like to do". Not sure how you would enforce it legally though, maybe massive fines or criminal proceedings against the cabinet accepting the responsibility of government?
But then there would have to be a caveat that the opposition cannot stop the legally binding part if a manifesto.
I also think that every manifesto should be independently analysed, costed and verified.
Agreed on everything, except on the opposition not being able to oppose 'legally binding' pledges.
They should be able to oppose it, lets face it, if it's a good idea, it'll go through with minimal resistance.
On the how do you enforce the 'no breaking rule of will do pledges', if such an issue occurs, the ministers and leader involved could be taken to court. That way the count can decide whether it was a deliberate misleading of the public and abuse of power, or simply 'you didn't keep to it because circumstances changed and there was no option.'
If they are found guilty of abusing power, bar them from ever holding political power as a punishment and message. If it was unavoidable, fine them appropriately?"
But an opposition could try to oppose a legally binding manifesto to try to get ministers taken to court?
And surely, if a party is voted in to govern, then they have been voted in to put in place their legally binding part of the manifesto?
It's very difficult, but for as long as their is no recourse, or recourse is not seen to be able to be taken, then political parties and politicians will always be 'dishonest'. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No party ever keeps to its manifesto.
I think the manifesto should be split into two parts- a legally binding "Will Do", and a non-legally binding "would like to do". Not sure how you would enforce it legally though, maybe massive fines or criminal proceedings against the cabinet accepting the responsibility of government?
But then there would have to be a caveat that the opposition cannot stop the legally binding part if a manifesto.
I also think that every manifesto should be independently analysed, costed and verified.
Agreed on everything, except on the opposition not being able to oppose 'legally binding' pledges.
They should be able to oppose it, lets face it, if it's a good idea, it'll go through with minimal resistance.
On the how do you enforce the 'no breaking rule of will do pledges', if such an issue occurs, the ministers and leader involved could be taken to court. That way the count can decide whether it was a deliberate misleading of the public and abuse of power, or simply 'you didn't keep to it because circumstances changed and there was no option.'
If they are found guilty of abusing power, bar them from ever holding political power as a punishment and message. If it was unavoidable, fine them appropriately?
But an opposition could try to oppose a legally binding manifesto to try to get ministers taken to court?
And surely, if a party is voted in to govern, then they have been voted in to put in place their legally binding part of the manifesto?
It's very difficult, but for as long as their is no recourse, or recourse is not seen to be able to be taken, then political parties and politicians will always be 'dishonest'."
There could be a system by which if the governing party and opposition 'water down' one of the governing party's pledges, both sign a piece of legislation to say they both agree on the final result and that it is a success of cross party co-operation. That way it avoids being political ammo come election time? And the opposition agrees to legally acknoledge they forced a compromise?
Might result in mitigating the overspend-austerity cycles this country gets itself into? |
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"No party ever keeps to its manifesto.
I think the manifesto should be split into two parts- a legally binding "Will Do", and a non-legally binding "would like to do". Not sure how you would enforce it legally though, maybe massive fines or criminal proceedings against the cabinet accepting the responsibility of government?
But then there would have to be a caveat that the opposition cannot stop the legally binding part if a manifesto.
I also think that every manifesto should be independently analysed, costed and verified. "
What a dam good idea, I'd like this to be the norm for sure |
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
"
I'm not ignoring it, just hate the fact that people keep saying we have an unelected Prime Minister. Not just this one but any of the previous ones. Those who try to use that statement to make them look less legitimate are simply spreading ignorance.
I agree with you 100% and you'd most probably find the one's spouting off about unelected PM's didn't vote for that party either but would keep stum if it was their party of choice in government changing leader."
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
"
Do you honestly believe it would be any different roles reversed? |
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
"Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
"
I can only assume that was an attempt at a wind up, it having been clearly stated that no Prime Minister is elected.  |
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"Am I the only one who is fed up with seeing people talk about us having an unelected Prime Minister?
Are people really so uneducated that they don't know what they're voting for?
For clarification, people are supposed to vote for an MP in their area whose party policies best represent their needs/desires. The party who wins overall will become the Government and usually the leader of the party becomes Prime Minister.
If a Prime Minister leaves in between general elections, a new leader is voted in BY MEMBERS OF THAT PARTY.
The general public do NOT vote for a Prime Minister.... ever. Please stop mentioning unelected Prime Ministers in a pathetic attempt to discredit a party.
Also, many need to learn the difference between "debt" and "deficit". Then blithely stating that the Tories raised the national debt would be shown to be rubbish. The debt will rise until the deficit has gone. The deficit is big, it was massive. It could have been removed quickly, providing nobody wanted any government money for anything for a year..... funny but that wouldn't happen!
/rant
Sorry but I see these two ill-informed opinions so often that it's driving me mad. "
So you don't think that who leads a party and becomes PM if they win effects whether or not people will vote for that party? How many times do we see the statement on here that Corbyn makes Labour unelectable? And how can you say you're voting for a party's policies rather than their leader when we've just watched Brexit split both the country's 2 main parties in half? |
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
"Am I the only one who is fed up with seeing people talk about us having an unelected Prime Minister?
Are people really so uneducated that they don't know what they're voting for?
For clarification, people are supposed to vote for an MP in their area whose party policies best represent their needs/desires. The party who wins overall will become the Government and usually the leader of the party becomes Prime Minister.
If a Prime Minister leaves in between general elections, a new leader is voted in BY MEMBERS OF THAT PARTY.
The general public do NOT vote for a Prime Minister.... ever. Please stop mentioning unelected Prime Ministers in a pathetic attempt to discredit a party.
Also, many need to learn the difference between "debt" and "deficit". Then blithely stating that the Tories raised the national debt would be shown to be rubbish. The debt will rise until the deficit has gone. The deficit is big, it was massive. It could have been removed quickly, providing nobody wanted any government money for anything for a year..... funny but that wouldn't happen!
/rant
Sorry but I see these two ill-informed opinions so often that it's driving me mad.
So you don't think that who leads a party and becomes PM if they win effects whether or not people will vote for that party? How many times do we see the statement on here that Corbyn makes Labour unelectable? And how can you say you're voting for a party's policies rather than their leader when we've just watched Brexit split both the country's 2 main parties in half? "
It may well have an effect on how people vote but they are not electing a Prime Minister, just his or her party.
Corbyn would definitely not be my choice of leader and does put people off of voting Labour, me included as it happens. But we're not voting for him either unless we live in his constituency.
Offering a referendum on remaining in the EU was a Tory party manifesto pledge which they honoured. I'm not getting into the whole right or wrong thing as it's been argued to death. It was not a Labour manifesto pledge. The people were asked to vote and did so. MPs had their own views which caused the splits. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
I can only assume that was an attempt at a wind up, it having been clearly stated that no Prime Minister is elected. "
Ok so what manifesto does Theresa May stand on then ?
Hopefully you will agree the Tory 2015 manifesto was under David Cameron's leadership ?
Fact is no one elected Theresa May manifesto ash she doesnt have one of her own
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
"Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
I can only assume that was an attempt at a wind up, it having been clearly stated that no Prime Minister is elected.
Ok so what manifesto does Theresa May stand on then ?
Hopefully you will agree the Tory 2015 manifesto was under David Cameron's leadership ?
Fact is no one elected Theresa May manifesto ash she doesnt have one of her own
"
The Conservative manifesto. It's a party document not just a Prime Ministers promise sheet. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
I can only assume that was an attempt at a wind up, it having been clearly stated that no Prime Minister is elected.
Ok so what manifesto does Theresa May stand on then ?
Hopefully you will agree the Tory 2015 manifesto was under David Cameron's leadership ?
Fact is no one elected Theresa May manifesto ash she doesnt have one of her own
The Conservative manifesto. It's a party document not just a Prime Ministers promise sheet. "
That party document was under David Cameron's leadership not Theresa May's
for example the Tory 2015 manifesto pledge was to keep the single market now Theresa thinks she can take the UK out of the single market when people elected the Tories on that promise to keep the single market if she had any baws then she would have a snap election and give people the chance to vote on her manifesto
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I like how nobody is willing to pluck up and give give their honest opinion and tackle the issue that each party creates a manifesto to be elected on as a whole.
Mrs May as inherited her position and manifesto - I have no issue with that.
But she has to stick to those pledges. She didnt get the memo with that on the tory N.I tax contribution rise attempt did she? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Problem is Theresa May doesnt stand on any manifesto of her own the Tory 2015 manifesto was under Camerons leadership so she is unelected
Remember this is the same woman that had a go at Gordon Brown not being elected as he didnt stand on manifesto it was under Blairs manifesto double standards but hey what do you expect from a Tory
I can only assume that was an attempt at a wind up, it having been clearly stated that no Prime Minister is elected.
Ok so what manifesto does Theresa May stand on then ?
Hopefully you will agree the Tory 2015 manifesto was under David Cameron's leadership ?
Fact is no one elected Theresa May manifesto ash she doesnt have one of her own
The Conservative manifesto. It's a party document not just a Prime Ministers promise sheet.
That party document was under David Cameron's leadership not Theresa May's
for example the Tory 2015 manifesto pledge was to keep the single market now Theresa thinks she can take the UK out of the single market when people elected the Tories on that promise to keep the single market if she had any baws then she would have a snap election and give people the chance to vote on her manifesto
"
I believe she can't call a snap election, as we are now under fixed term parliaments.
The Fixed-Terms Parliament Act, introduced by the coalition Government in 2011, created a mandatory five-year gap between general elections.
This means that the next election is not due to take place until May 2020.
Under the act, a least two thirds of MPs need to back a motion for an early election in order to bring the date forward.
Alternatively there could be an early election if there is a motion of no confidence in the Government or MPs vote to repeal the act.
So the decision to hold a 'snap election' is not Theses May's to make. |
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By *VBeth OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Chester |
I should also point out a manifesto states intentions but is not an absolute guarantee of what will happen. I've always considered it a guideline, I avoid disappointment in every single government that way. |
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