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Mcguiness ?
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By *onyxptMan
over a year ago
st neots, living in Albufeira-Algarve-Portugal |
"Oh dear. Theres already been 2 threads closed and some bans handed out on this subject already today."
Oh ! I am aware there some over zealous Mods on here !
But that sounds a bit like censorship!
TBH I cant say ,as I didn't see see the actual threads you refer to, and while you and I are in dispute of ideas on the forum , I think you would agree that we don't dispute each others right to opinion !
So, care to share what was so serious about those "censored" threads without getting into trouble yourself ...of course!  |
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"Oh dear. Theres already been 2 threads closed and some bans handed out on this subject already today.
Oh ! I am aware there some over zealous Mods on here !
But that sounds a bit like censorship!
TBH I cant say ,as I didn't see see the actual threads you refer to, and while you and I are in dispute of ideas on the forum , I think you would agree that we don't dispute each others right to opinion !
So, care to share what was so serious about those "censored" threads without getting into trouble yourself ...of course! "
Both threads descended into name calling and alledgedly abusive pm's, some light sectarianism and what Ill politely call unproductive conversation. None of it helped by people holding on to anger over a period of decades and venting it here.
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Oh dear. Theres already been 2 threads closed and some bans handed out on this subject already today.
Oh ! I am aware there some over zealous Mods on here !
But that sounds a bit like censorship!
TBH I cant say ,as I didn't see see the actual threads you refer to, and while you and I are in dispute of ideas on the forum , I think you would agree that we don't dispute each others right to opinion !
So, care to share what was so serious about those "censored" threads without getting into trouble yourself ...of course!
Both threads descended into name calling and alledgedly abusive pm's, some light sectarianism and what Ill politely call unproductive conversation. None of it helped by people holding on to anger over a period of decades and venting it here.
"
So me posting links to Wolfe Tones songs on youtube won't be helpful then?
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't think he particuarly cared how people saw him. He fought for what he believed in and that is what he judged himself by.
I don't agree with what he stood for, but my judgement would be clouded. History may well judge him differently to how most see him. |
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One of the interesting things today was watching the stories change online. Sky and BBC both took a stronger focus on his paramilitary days in their initial obits and then changed them fairly quickly to turn the focus on to his political career.
I think thats a strong indication over where his legacy will be remembered. It will be for the peace process and subsequent time in Stormont. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't think that there is much you can say about the man without pissing someone off.
(Hopefully that wasn't too controversial a statement!) "
.
Thats about right.
However i dont send pm,s declaring people a simpleton for having a view on something.
It appears theres something quite Nazi like on here, where only certain people are allowed to say what the "truth" is?.
My opinion of MM is that i understand him and i understand what caused him to do what he did but i could never support him or what he did, one man's freedom fighter is often quoted on here to follow this to its natural conclusion you would have to say oh yes Isis, hacking people's heads off, perfectly fine, they have a genuine political cause!
For all the arguments put forward about the rights and wrongs on both sides nobody actually got back to me on my point that you dont have to go down the violence route, thats a personal choice and one proven by Gandhi that isnt necessary.
In my opinion the IRA worked on advancing their own position and status far more than helping any downtrodden ordinary person, but then in the end the reality was by the mid 60s it was only the extremists left in it, the ones who didnt believe in compromise like MM and GA, they were the Isis of jihadism, the very hardcore who were willing and ready to let countless die to get 100% what they want in life.
So yes i understand McGuiness and his fan club but i could never support him or them |
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By *onyxptMan
over a year ago
st neots, living in Albufeira-Algarve-Portugal |
"Oh dear. Theres already been 2 threads closed and some bans handed out on this subject already today.
Oh ! I am aware there some over zealous Mods on here !
But that sounds a bit like censorship!
TBH I cant say ,as I didn't see see the actual threads you refer to, and while you and I are in dispute of ideas on the forum , I think you would agree that we don't dispute each others right to opinion !
So, care to share what was so serious about those "censored" threads without getting into trouble yourself ...of course!
Both threads descended into name calling and alledgedly abusive pm's, some light sectarianism and what Ill politely call unproductive conversation. None of it helped by people holding on to anger over a period of decades and venting it here.
"
Thanks !  
So basically it was the old saying " One man´s freedom fighter is another man´s terrorist " .... descended into mayhem but on steroids and in flames !! |
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"
However i dont send pm,s declaring people a simpleton for having a view on something.
It appears theres something quite Nazi like on here, where only certain people are allowed to say what the "truth" is?."
Yeah but you thought that 9/11 happened before there was peace in Northern Ireland. Its not that only some people decide what the truth is. Its that only some people know what theyre talking about.
Facts arent subject to your feelings or opinions and shouldnt be based on that thing you thought you heard once.
In fact you claimed it was "a simple fact" that the IRA knew they had to pack it in after 9/11 and start the peace process.
"
My opinion of MM is that i understand him and i understand what caused him to do what he did but i could never support him or what he did, one man's freedom fighter is often quoted on here to follow this to its natural conclusion you would have to say oh yes Isis, hacking people's heads off, perfectly fine, they have a genuine political cause!
For all the arguments put forward about the rights and wrongs on both sides nobody actually got back to me on my point that you dont have to go down the violence route, thats a personal choice and one proven by Gandhi that isnt necessary.
In my opinion the IRA worked on advancing their own position and status far more than helping any downtrodden ordinary person, but then in the end the reality was by the mid 60s it was only the extremists left in it, the ones who didnt believe in compromise like MM and GA, they were the Isis of jihadism, the very hardcore who were willing and ready to let countless die to get 100% what they want in life.
So yes i understand McGuiness and his fan club but i could never support him or them"
*sighs*
Case in point.
There was a peaceful movement to try and get some basic fair treatment from the government for Catholics. The government ignored this and then shot a bunch of them. The reason it worked for Ghandi is because the British wanted out of the region anyway and didnt want to expend the capital to keep it. It wasnt because British governments are really quite reasonable if only you ask them politely. Peaceful protest was tried in Northern Ireland. It was ignored then they reacted violently towards it and lied to cover up the massacre of innocents.
And if you knew anything about MM he has been one of the leading voices for compromise and reconciliation for over 2 decades. He didnt sacrifice people until he got 100% of what he wanted. When the British and the Unionists were finally ready for an equitable solution he led from the front to make it happen (along with some equally important Unionists it must be said.) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
However i dont send pm,s declaring people a simpleton for having a view on something.
It appears theres something quite Nazi like on here, where only certain people are allowed to say what the "truth" is?.
Yeah but you thought that 9/11 happened before there was peace in Northern Ireland. Its not that only some people decide what the truth is. Its that only some people know what theyre talking about.
Facts arent subject to your feelings or opinions and shouldnt be based on that thing you thought you heard once.
In fact you claimed it was "a simple fact" that the IRA knew they had to pack it in after 9/11 and start the peace process.
My opinion of MM is that i understand him and i understand what caused him to do what he did but i could never support him or what he did, one man's freedom fighter is often quoted on here to follow this to its natural conclusion you would have to say oh yes Isis, hacking people's heads off, perfectly fine, they have a genuine political cause!
For all the arguments put forward about the rights and wrongs on both sides nobody actually got back to me on my point that you dont have to go down the violence route, thats a personal choice and one proven by Gandhi that isnt necessary.
In my opinion the IRA worked on advancing their own position and status far more than helping any downtrodden ordinary person, but then in the end the reality was by the mid 60s it was only the extremists left in it, the ones who didnt believe in compromise like MM and GA, they were the Isis of jihadism, the very hardcore who were willing and ready to let countless die to get 100% what they want in life.
So yes i understand McGuiness and his fan club but i could never support him or them
*sighs*
Case in point.
There was a peaceful movement to try and get some basic fair treatment from the government for Catholics. The government ignored this and then shot a bunch of them. The reason it worked for Ghandi is because the British wanted out of the region anyway and didnt want to expend the capital to keep it. It wasnt because British governments are really quite reasonable if only you ask them politely. Peaceful protest was tried in Northern Ireland. It was ignored then they reacted violently towards it and lied to cover up the massacre of innocents.
And if you knew anything about MM he has been one of the leading voices for compromise and reconciliation for over 2 decades. He didnt sacrifice people until he got 100% of what he wanted. When the British and the Unionists were finally ready for an equitable solution he led from the front to make it happen (along with some equally important Unionists it must be said.)"
.
I actually pointed out that the first couple of years of the peace agreement were not very good and i quote this from wiki.before being re-established in May 2000 as Provisional IRA decommissioning eventually began. Aside from the decommissioning issue, however, ongoing paramilitary activity (albeit relatively low-level compared to the past) by the Provisional Irish Republican Army—e.g., arms importations, smuggling, organised crime, "punishment beatings", intelligence-gathering and rioting—was also a stumbling block. The loyalist paramilitaries also continued similar activity although as they were not represented by a significant political party, their position was less central to political change..
So yes my opinion is that 911 was what actually galvanised them into forgetting that they could go back to what they had done for a hundred years and made them realise that times change and terrorism was no longer seen as tolerable under any circumstances! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It would have been better if MM had handed himself in for the crimes he and others had committed along with they're opposites on the other side and allowed people on both sides to get new fresh leaders who weren't covered in blood, the only reason neither side did that is because they knew the only way they were staying out of prison is to then come together in peace (ahhh thats sweet).
All this noble crap about doing it for the ordinary folk is just that, noble crap, all those leaders on both sides were in it for there own ends more than the noble cause,sinn fein split in the 20s and the extremists started shooting everybody who disagreed with the no compromise ideology from the outset. |
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"He held a gun for 30 years and only a white flag for 10 says a lot. "
Some would argue that it says a lot about the man. Some would argue it says a lot about the British that it took so long for them to give the Catholics equal rights.
There was no one who came off looking good in this conflict. Both sides murdered innocents. |
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"
However i dont send pm,s declaring people a simpleton for having a view on something.
It appears theres something quite Nazi like on here, where only certain people are allowed to say what the "truth" is?.
Yeah but you thought that 9/11 happened before there was peace in Northern Ireland. Its not that only some people decide what the truth is. Its that only some people know what theyre talking about.
Facts arent subject to your feelings or opinions and shouldnt be based on that thing you thought you heard once.
In fact you claimed it was "a simple fact" that the IRA knew they had to pack it in after 9/11 and start the peace process.
My opinion of MM is that i understand him and i understand what caused him to do what he did but i could never support him or what he did, one man's freedom fighter is often quoted on here to follow this to its natural conclusion you would have to say oh yes Isis, hacking people's heads off, perfectly fine, they have a genuine political cause!
For all the arguments put forward about the rights and wrongs on both sides nobody actually got back to me on my point that you dont have to go down the violence route, thats a personal choice and one proven by Gandhi that isnt necessary.
In my opinion the IRA worked on advancing their own position and status far more than helping any downtrodden ordinary person, but then in the end the reality was by the mid 60s it was only the extremists left in it, the ones who didnt believe in compromise like MM and GA, they were the Isis of jihadism, the very hardcore who were willing and ready to let countless die to get 100% what they want in life.
So yes i understand McGuiness and his fan club but i could never support him or them
*sighs*
Case in point.
There was a peaceful movement to try and get some basic fair treatment from the government for Catholics. The government ignored this and then shot a bunch of them. The reason it worked for Ghandi is because the British wanted out of the region anyway and didnt want to expend the capital to keep it. It wasnt because British governments are really quite reasonable if only you ask them politely. Peaceful protest was tried in Northern Ireland. It was ignored then they reacted violently towards it and lied to cover up the massacre of innocents.
And if you knew anything about MM he has been one of the leading voices for compromise and reconciliation for over 2 decades. He didnt sacrifice people until he got 100% of what he wanted. When the British and the Unionists were finally ready for an equitable solution he led from the front to make it happen (along with some equally important Unionists it must be said.).
I actually pointed out that the first couple of years of the peace agreement were not very good and i quote this from wiki.before being re-established in May 2000 as Provisional IRA decommissioning eventually began. Aside from the decommissioning issue, however, ongoing paramilitary activity (albeit relatively low-level compared to the past) by the Provisional Irish Republican Army—e.g., arms importations, smuggling, organised crime, "punishment beatings", intelligence-gathering and rioting—was also a stumbling block. The loyalist paramilitaries also continued similar activity although as they were not represented by a significant political party, their position was less central to political change..
So yes my opinion is that 911 was what actually galvanised them into forgetting that they could go back to what they had done for a hundred years and made them realise that times change and terrorism was no longer seen as tolerable under any circumstances!"
But a handful if the ex IRA are still doing those things so 9/11 didnt change anything. And of course the first few years were tough, there needed to be time to build up trust. |
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"It would have been better if MM had handed himself in for the crimes he and others had committed along with they're opposites on the other side and allowed people on both sides to get new fresh leaders who weren't covered in blood, the only reason neither side did that is because they knew the only way they were staying out of prison is to then come together in peace (ahhh thats sweet).
"
Except that Gerry Adams, president of Sinn Fein was arrested under the terrorism act as recently as 2014 which kinda negates that argument |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It would have been better if MM had handed himself in for the crimes he and others had committed along with they're opposites on the other side and allowed people on both sides to get new fresh leaders who weren't covered in blood, the only reason neither side did that is because they knew the only way they were staying out of prison is to then come together in peace (ahhh thats sweet).
Except that Gerry Adams, president of Sinn Fein was arrested under the terrorism act as recently as 2014 which kinda negates that argument"
.
Except hes not doing 25 years to life for crimes anybody else would be is he?.
That kinda agrees with my point in actuality |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"He held a gun for 30 years and only a white flag for 10 says a lot.
Some would argue that it says a lot about the man. Some would argue it says a lot about the British that it took so long for them to give the Catholics equal rights.
There was no one who came off looking good in this conflict. Both sides murdered innocents."
.
This we both can agree on.
Just as i can agree that British rule in Ireland wasnt the best outcome in life or India for that matter.
I think Gandhi showed that the world can be changed for the better without violence but it also showed that in reality when the occupying predominant force leaves or gets pushed then its not always the fact you get some utopia arrising from the ashes and that was my point about partition in Ireland, yes theres been violence and deaths but in reality its not been as bad as it could have been (look at India after British rule ended).
Hopefully with time people can put it behind them and live in a united Ireland or a partitioned Ireland but united in resolution to be more understanding of the other side |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Except hes not doing 25 years to life for crimes anybody else would be is he?.
That kinda agrees with my point in actuality
I'm sure he would be if they could have pinned it on him!"
.
Think of it like this.
Youve seen goodfellas the film havent you?.
Imagine if there was the same peace agreement between the new York mob bosses and the new York authorities to bring organised crime to an end.
It would be favourable as a mob boss once you realised your time had come to be at the forefront of any process therefore making you necessary and now unprosecutable.
Its not that you cant prove it just that it suits the other sides interest that your not?.
The goodfellas thought they were doing good, they had their "Clan" who thought they were doing good stuff for them, of course anybody who thought otherwise could be disposed of, these arent democratic outfits, there people who say there acting on the peoples behalf but like all gangsters and dictators any opposing voice is silenced, theres no accountability and above all else you have to stay in power or youll face the wrath of the crimes youve committed to others.
Its why i dont like this modern phenomenon of making out dictators as noble freedom fighters, you can see this in McGuiness or Fidel Castro or che guivara or Isis or Assad.
In the end there all people whove killed and murdered the way to the top and kept on doing it to keep at the top.
I will say this, poverty had as much to play in the troubles as anything else, Ireland was on its arse in the 60s and n Ireland was troublesome at best with sectarian divide, its the perfect time to be a gangster and make the most of the following you can make, obviously that goes for both sides, i was no fan of Paisley's either |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just watched David Attenborough on evolution.
The evolution of peace follows the same steps, it starts with men who hated each other, stopping the fight and trying to work together, differences are not resolved, past deeds not forgotten, but it's a start.
Those who fought the war, need to form the peace, but need to die off and be replaced by new generations with clean hands, in generations to come people will hopefully look back and be astonished that their ancestors could hate enough to kill. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's 24 years ago yesterday two young boys were killed by the Ira in Warrington. I don't believe the Ira were fighting for there rights, and equality for the catholic people when murdering those boys.
MM is lucky he got to live 66 years because of him those Warrington lads didn't get past their teens.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just watched David Attenborough on evolution.
The evolution of peace follows the same steps, it starts with men who hated each other, stopping the fight and trying to work together, differences are not resolved, past deeds not forgotten, but it's a start.
Those who fought the war, need to form the peace, but need to die off and be replaced by new generations with clean hands, in generations to come people will hopefully look back and be astonished that their ancestors could hate enough to kill."
.
I agree except this kinda annoys me, you see it paints a picture that its everybody from both sides, whereas the reality is its just them the small minority that needs to stop fighting, everybody else already was peaceful, the majority of people are more than willing to live in peace, the small minority like Paisley and McGuiness are the ones who play it for their own interests.
There no different to most politicians they like to shit stir to divide and conquer.
Tony Blair did it so very well, hes not much different than McGuiness except the orders come legally and you dont have to carry on being a dictator because your never going to face prosecution for any of your crimes as a democratically? elected leader because the establishment? is nearly always on your side.
My hope is that one day we'll have an actual fully accountable elected representatives and then maybe we wont follow the shit with more of the same shit |
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When the call for civil rights, equality and decent treatment is met by the brutal policing of an apartheid system, it is not surprising that, seeing peaceful methods fail, there are those who feel justified in upturning a rotten system by means of the last resort, armed struggle.
The provisional IRA was the creation of orange intransigence and oppression so, without condoning the atrocities perpetrated by the IRA (and the UDA), one can understand how the slide into anarchy came about.
Ireland has suffered centuries of hostility and aggression from England and then Britain, including the unfortunate invasion/settlement of the plantation Scots, so one can only hope that peace will become the norm and that unification will not take too long to come about. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How will he be Judged ? "
no better or no worse than many throughout history
some interesting reading going back to Henry VIII right through to Lloyd George then onto recent times
land and greed of men |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I sometimes wonder what drives people to try and defend and repaint a picture after the artist has finished it. The artist starts his own canvas and paints his picture. When he's finished he's made his own choices and must stand by them. Others can only look on and interpret how they want to view the painting. Some will buy it because it appeals to their inner being others will pass over with little thought, while most will look on with curiosity and perplexity and only perceived understanding and pretend they know.
He will be judged through history for what he did and how he did it. In 10 , 20, 50 years time more truth and light will come out, and history will rewrite the stories again. We can only judge someone with what we know. What we know can change and so does the judgement. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't know enough history about the mess in Northern Ireland but as to comment on the reasons behind everything but I do remember as a kid all the evening time news footage of riots, shootings and car bombs going off over there then over here too.
I can understand resistance against a viewed suppression in your homeland but the resistance should only be against the government who they view is suppressing them not innocent civilians.
Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
ISIS murdering women & children, IRA / PIRA murdering women & children, any other group that might have murdered women & children..... There's no difference. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't know enough history about the mess in Northern Ireland but as to comment on the reasons behind everything but I do remember as a kid all the evening time news footage of riots, shootings and car bombs going off over there then over here too.
I can understand resistance against a viewed suppression in your homeland but the resistance should only be against the government who they view is suppressing them not innocent civilians.
Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
ISIS murdering women & children, IRA / PIRA murdering women & children, any other group that might have murdered women & children..... There's no difference."
but sir with the greatest of respect that's exactly what British forces did on this island...ot is so frustrating for us to constantly have people be it on this or sky news to have the audacity,Cheek and outright hypocrisy to call us terrorists when this was inflicted upon us,every true republican just wants to be left alone,how ignorant Brits are to there colonialism,imperialism past is astounding...I like the vast majority of republicans regret the past but to seriously consider the British military's actions here as humane is border line psychotic.brits killed thousands of women and children on this island,don't lecture us on loss...but martin like Mandela was a great advocate for reconciliation and peace,a great Irish man and true republican.never to be forgotten. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
."
If I agree to that can you tell me who should not be forgiven for the women and children killed by British bombers in Syria? is it the Pilots? their commanding officers? the Prime Minister?, or you and me for allowing it to happen? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
.
If I agree to that can you tell me who should not be forgiven for the women and children killed by British bombers in Syria? is it the Pilots? their commanding officers? the Prime Minister?, or you and me for allowing it to happen?"
after reading your comments over, a few times, I have came to the conclusion its YOU.
not you and me, just you.
The finger points at YOU.
you did ask. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
.
If I agree to that can you tell me who should not be forgiven for the women and children killed by British bombers in Syria? is it the Pilots? their commanding officers? the Prime Minister?, or you and me for allowing it to happen?
after reading your comments over, a few times, I have came to the conclusion its YOU.
not you and me, just you.
The finger points at YOU.
you did ask."
Damn, I suspected as much  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He was a huge cricket fan,and even followed the England team!
Who knew!"
Yep, I bet you were listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday too, when they said that |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A murdering bastard terrorist
"
Am watching live TV now where at least one poor woman been killed and a police officer and others hurt.
Am really hoping the terrorist is dead burning in hell.
all terrorist are bastard's. |
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"To name but two incidents
Jean McConville
3 scots soldiers hands tied behind their backs and shot in the back of the head
Unjustifiable!"
We can swap lists of unjustifiable killings if you like? Martin McGuinness did a lot more for peace than most of the British killers on the list did though. |
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"How will he be Judged ? "
Hero..He was a Freedom Fighter for the nationalist community of Derry who suffered mass oppression and inequality despite making up the majority of Derrys population..He watched his people slaughtered at a civil rights protest on Bloody Sunday and all the other injustices that were visited upon his people by the british..Unfortunately the British only paid attention to armed struggle  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There's a few of you on here who really shouldn't be as your personalised comments closed the other 3 posts. This one is about politics. You can talk personal and mud sling on your own forums but please Let's keepthis political.
Thank you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How will he be Judged ?
Hero..He was a Freedom Fighter for the nationalist community of Derry who suffered mass oppression and inequality despite making up the majority of Derrys population..He watched his people slaughtered at a civil rights protest on Bloody Sunday and all the other injustices that were visited upon his people by the british..Unfortunately the British only paid attention to armed struggle "
He will be judged as is anyone by his deeds past and present. Some will choose to overlook certain aspects because it's uncomfortable for them or they want to spin a different light.
That is the way you choose to judge him...not necessarily how history will. Other as I've said will choose differently and history may be different again. One needs to be aware that history can change its judgement in time too as new information comes to light.
Someone mentioned Ghandi earlier..... apparently he wasn't such a peaceful man in the privacy of his home as new information has come to light by family members. Yes we see him as the epitome of a peaceful man. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't know enough history about the mess in Northern Ireland but as to comment on the reasons behind everything but I do remember as a kid all the evening time news footage of riots, shootings and car bombs going off over there then over here too.
I can understand resistance against a viewed suppression in your homeland but the resistance should only be against the government who they view is suppressing them not innocent civilians.
Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
ISIS murdering women & children, IRA / PIRA murdering women & children, any other group that might have murdered women & children..... There's no difference.but sir with the greatest of respect that's exactly what British forces did on this island...ot is so frustrating for us to constantly have people be it on this or sky news to have the audacity,Cheek and outright hypocrisy to call us terrorists when this was inflicted upon us,every true republican just wants to be left alone,how ignorant Brits are to there colonialism,imperialism past is astounding...I like the vast majority of republicans regret the past but to seriously consider the British military's actions here as humane is border line psychotic.brits killed thousands of women and children on this island,don't lecture us on loss...but martin like Mandela was a great advocate for reconciliation and peace,a great Irish man and true republican.never to be forgotten."
I never said anything about the British Military actions being humane throughout the last near 100 years "Troubles" and I'll happily admit I don't know about the British Military blowing up / murdering women and children in Ireland either, I'll look that up. |
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"I don't know enough history about the mess in Northern Ireland but as to comment on the reasons behind everything but I do remember as a kid all the evening time news footage of riots, shootings and car bombs going off over there then over here too.
I can understand resistance against a viewed suppression in your homeland but the resistance should only be against the government who they view is suppressing them not innocent civilians.
Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
ISIS murdering women & children, IRA / PIRA murdering women & children, any other group that might have murdered women & children..... There's no difference.but sir with the greatest of respect that's exactly what British forces did on this island...ot is so frustrating for us to constantly have people be it on this or sky news to have the audacity,Cheek and outright hypocrisy to call us terrorists when this was inflicted upon us,every true republican just wants to be left alone,how ignorant Brits are to there colonialism,imperialism past is astounding...I like the vast majority of republicans regret the past but to seriously consider the British military's actions here as humane is border line psychotic.brits killed thousands of women and children on this island,don't lecture us on loss...but martin like Mandela was a great advocate for reconciliation and peace,a great Irish man and true republican.never to be forgotten.
I never said anything about the British Military actions being humane throughout the last near 100 years "Troubles" and I'll happily admit I don't know about the British Military blowing up / murdering women and children in Ireland either, I'll look that up."
Bloody Sunday you'll presumably be aware of, and Ballymurphy was also the paras, a couple of weeks before Derry. Check out the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, the Miami showband, Brian Nelson, the Glenanne gang.. That should give you some insight into a side of the conflict that probably wasn't reported quite so well over there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"There's a few of you on here who really shouldn't be as your personalised comments closed the other 3 posts. This one is about politics. You can talk personal and mud sling on your own forums but please Let's keepthis political.
Thank you. "
.
Its not about debate its about enforcing the historical view.
History is written by the victors and very few nice words are wrote about Napoleon  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don't know enough history about the mess in Northern Ireland but as to comment on the reasons behind everything but I do remember as a kid all the evening time news footage of riots, shootings and car bombs going off over there then over here too.
I can understand resistance against a viewed suppression in your homeland but the resistance should only be against the government who they view is suppressing them not innocent civilians.
Blowing up innocent men, women & children can never and should never be forgiven no matter what the "cause"
ISIS murdering women & children, IRA / PIRA murdering women & children, any other group that might have murdered women & children..... There's no difference.but sir with the greatest of respect that's exactly what British forces did on this island...ot is so frustrating for us to constantly have people be it on this or sky news to have the audacity,Cheek and outright hypocrisy to call us terrorists when this was inflicted upon us,every true republican just wants to be left alone,how ignorant Brits are to there colonialism,imperialism past is astounding...I like the vast majority of republicans regret the past but to seriously consider the British military's actions here as humane is border line psychotic.brits killed thousands of women and children on this island,don't lecture us on loss...but martin like Mandela was a great advocate for reconciliation and peace,a great Irish man and true republican.never to be forgotten.
I never said anything about the British Military actions being humane throughout the last near 100 years "Troubles" and I'll happily admit I don't know about the British Military blowing up / murdering women and children in Ireland either, I'll look that up.
Bloody Sunday you'll presumably be aware of, and Ballymurphy was also the paras, a couple of weeks before Derry. Check out the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, the Miami showband, Brian Nelson, the Glenanne gang.. That should give you some insight into a side of the conflict that probably wasn't reported quite so well over there. "
so i take it that your a happy man today then after today's attack in London 4 dead. Or what about the bomb last night that nearly killed police officers ira bastard's |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"He put down the gun at the end of the day.He was a man of his time and place in history."
He was a murderer and bastard. Tell that to the families that have lost love one's to the bastard.
The ira tried to bomb a police station last night to remember the bastard by.
Today's terrorist is the same a bastard |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To name but two incidents
Jean McConville
3 scots soldiers hands tied behind their backs and shot in the back of the head
Unjustifiable!
We can swap lists of unjustifiable killings if you like? Martin McGuinness did a lot more for peace than most of the British killers on the list did though. "
The brits are no angels
There were wrongs in NI that the general population of England knew nothing about
It's not about swapping lists
I have nothing against the Irish , no grudges ,I was pointing out terrible crimes you have your view I mine
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"To name but two incidents
Jean McConville
3 scots soldiers hands tied behind their backs and shot in the back of the head
Unjustifiable!
We can swap lists of unjustifiable killings if you like? Martin McGuinness did a lot more for peace than most of the British killers on the list did though.
The brits are no angels
There were wrongs in NI that the general population of England knew nothing about
It's not about swapping lists
I have nothing against the Irish , no grudges ,I was pointing out terrible crimes you havev your view I mine
"
so what's your point on the fact that the bastard's nearly killed police officers on Tues night by bomb.
Then the same ira bastard's |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"so what's your point on the fact that the bastard's nearly killed police officers on Tues night by bomb.
Then the same ira bastard's"
I think you will find that was not the person under discussion, his alibi is pretty strong on Tuesday. |
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I have very conflicted views about NI and nationalism.
First I need to make a couple of declarations...
I am British, I served, I did 3 and a half (last cut short by redeployment to Falklands in 82) Op Banner tours of NI...
I am Catholic...
My Grandfather (of who I am very proud) was a member of the IRB, a founding member of the IRA and was part of the garrison in Boland's Mill during the Easter Rising in 1916.
I find myself being quite drawn to MM, he fought for his beliefs and when he felt he had achieved them he made peace with his enemies. He led from the front and did not compromise. I find these admirable qualities.
However I do not understand why any Irish person would want the border removed.
It is a boon to Ireland.
It provides jobs, 2 civil services (one would be redundant if the border was removed) and a whole load of 'cross border' opportunities to make money, as well as all the money that the UK mainland pumps into NI to subsidise it. It seems to me that provided that the gerrymandering of old has been removed and all have an equal share of power then it is in the interest of everyone in Ireland to maintain the status quo.
But it seems to me that just like the UK mainland there are those who don't care how much damage independence does, they demand total sovereignty (even if it is an illusion). |
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"To name but two incidents
Jean McConville
3 scots soldiers hands tied behind their backs and shot in the back of the head
Unjustifiable!
We can swap lists of unjustifiable killings if you like? Martin McGuinness did a lot more for peace than most of the British killers on the list did though.
The brits are no angels
There were wrongs in NI that the general population of England knew nothing about
It's not about swapping lists
I have nothing against the Irish , no grudges ,I was pointing out terrible crimes you have your view I mine
"
There are victims on both sides and victims who were on no dude at all. I just get annoyed when people appear to create a hierarchy among them to suggest that "the victims on our side were worse than on yours". Apologies if I misread your post but that's what it looked like to me. |
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"I have very conflicted views about NI and nationalism.
First I need to make a couple of declarations...
I am British, I served, I did 3 and a half (last cut short by redeployment to Falklands in 82) Op Banner tours of NI...
I am Catholic...
My Grandfather (of who I am very proud) was a member of the IRB, a founding member of the IRA and was part of the garrison in Boland's Mill during the Easter Rising in 1916.
I find myself being quite drawn to MM, he fought for his beliefs and when he felt he had achieved them he made peace with his enemies. He led from the front and did not compromise. I find these admirable qualities.
However I do not understand why any Irish person would want the border removed.
It is a boon to Ireland.
It provides jobs, 2 civil services (one would be redundant if the border was removed) and a whole load of 'cross border' opportunities to make money, as well as all the money that the UK mainland pumps into NI to subsidise it. It seems to me that provided that the gerrymandering of old has been removed and all have an equal share of power then it is in the interest of everyone in Ireland to maintain the status quo.
But it seems to me that just like the UK mainland there are those who don't care how much damage independence does, they demand total sovereignty (even if it is an illusion)."
In simplistic terms... The border between England and Scotland is an ancient historic one that's been there for at least a couple of millenia although not always exactly in the dance place, and marks a distinction between the two peoples. The ancient and historic border between Ireland and Britain exists along our coastline and similarly marks the distinction between our peoples. The current border on our island did not reflect any ancient or historic division that has existed prior to its creation. It was based on a sectarian headcount with precise calculations made to ensure that one religion would have a permanent majority over another. In the process, large numbers of the new artificial majority were discarded on the other side of it and a significant minority of its population objected to its creation in the first place. These were the people who were destined to be its second class citizens who were denied the civil rights the people of Britain were used to until the civil rights movement came along. The only reason it was accepted by the people in the new free state was because it was implemented under threat of "immediate and terrible warfare" to quote Lloyd George.
Btw,the civil rights campaign was seeking no more than one man one vote, access to housing and access to employment, basically fair treatment. They were bludgeoned off the streets by the police force before your army arrived to calm things down. It turned out however that the army's version of calming things down was a bit perverse and so civil rights protesters were then being shot as well as battered. Check out bloody Sunday if you don't believe me. Anyway, for Irish republicans, removing the border is partly about righting what they view as a grevious wrong perpetrated on this island less than a hundred years ago. |
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For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain..."
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased. |
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"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain..."
Who are you referring to? The PIRA decommissioned it's weapons years ago and has since disbanded. Neither the dissident republican groups nor the unionist paramilitary groups decommissioned any weapons. |
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"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased. "
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress. "
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others. |
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"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others. "
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others.
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things. "
.
Using that logic we can follow it to its inevitable final destination.
There are no crimes just people whove had a bad life inflicted upon them, you could almost make out they were the victim?.
Everybody has choices, the ones who choose not to shoot people in the knees but go about their life even though its hindered are the real heroes, sadly they very rarely get recognition? as a martyr for it |
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"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others.
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things. .
Using that logic we can follow it to its inevitable final destination.
There are no crimes just people whove had a bad life inflicted upon them, you could almost make out they were the victim?.
Everybody has choices, the ones who choose not to shoot people in the knees but go about their life even though its hindered are the real heroes, sadly they very rarely get recognition? as a martyr for it"
That you would misinterpret something hardly surprises me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others.
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things. "
Man caused the conflict...and it wasn't one side like most are trying to blame. |
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"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others.
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things.
Man caused the conflict...and it wasn't one side like most are trying to blame."
What man caused the conflict? Martin McGuinness? You've either lost the plot or else you're completely ignorant of what happened in Ireland. Sweet Jesus, that's about the daftest comment I've seen here yet, and that's saying something. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others.
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things. .
Using that logic we can follow it to its inevitable final destination.
There are no crimes just people whove had a bad life inflicted upon them, you could almost make out they were the victim?.
Everybody has choices, the ones who choose not to shoot people in the knees but go about their life even though its hindered are the real heroes, sadly they very rarely get recognition? as a martyr for it"
They're not looking for it, not wanting it and so dont need it. That's the true hero.
M, I'm not demeaning your post or anyones. I merely pointed out what I can see whether you think its true or not that's how they came across. Others have pointed it out too.Thats now continued over here when the irish ones were prematurely closed. The Irish posts were closed for good reason. Most things are taken personally on there by a regular closed group who oppose alternative views. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For all the talk of a piece process, there's a lot of violence going on to this day...
Personally I find it difficult to respect a person/group that says release our fighters (criminals) and we will surrender our weapons, when that group fail to honour their side of the bargain...
This...
It can will need b able be 100% honoured. A wild animal was created. ..some aspects have changed but the inclusion of some certain uncontrollable elements will never change. ..its a way of life, identity and recognition for some who are seeking that who are used for extreme purposes. Terrorism will never go away. It can only be stemmed in places but will pop up in another place and with a new face but it is always the same. A disregard for life in the air of power and control.
Any life taken taints a cause and will always be a blot that can never be erased.
In 1969 the terrorists wore British uniforms. When you grasp that nettle we'll be making progress.
Too much hatred M. You been telling others to move forward yet there's venom in you posts the past few days. You've sunk to their level IMO. Unfortunately so many who are shouting that people should look to what he did in the peace process and how he finished are holding on themselves to what others have done to them in the past. Interesting how you conveniently omit that the other side has also been working towards a peace process. I understand where people are coming from but I'm not naive in blaming others.
No venom at all. I have no idea why you'd suggest that other than in an attempt to demean my post somewhat. My post was a statement of fact and that you misinterpreted that as some sort hate, when nothing could be further from the truth, speaks volumes. You have no possibility of even beginning to understand men like Martin McGuinness if you can't open yourself up to examining what caused the conflict in the north of Ireland. Hatred and venom aren't my things. .
Using that logic we can follow it to its inevitable final destination.
There are no crimes just people whove had a bad life inflicted upon them, you could almost make out they were the victim?.
Everybody has choices, the ones who choose not to shoot people in the knees but go about their life even though its hindered are the real heroes, sadly they very rarely get recognition? as a martyr for it
That you would misinterpret something hardly surprises me. "
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Which bit did i misinterpret?.
Your arguing that he had a reason for doing awful stuff, Im arguing he may have but that doesnt justify it to the majority of people.
Does the guy mowing people down on Westminster bridge have justification?.
Millions of other people went through exactly the same life experiences as McGuiness without falling back into the default, lets kill people solution |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You appear to think that the conflict was about a bit of discomfort? You appear to forget that the PIRA didn't even exist at the beginning of the conflict. "
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No nowhere did i say it was a bit of discomfort, there were hundreds of thousands of people who went through exactly what McGuiness did who didnt choose to start shooting people in the knees because of it!.
How do you suppose those people managed it? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You appear to think that the conflict was about a bit of discomfort? You appear to forget that the PIRA didn't even exist at the beginning of the conflict. .
No nowhere did i say it was a bit of discomfort, there were hundreds of thousands of people who went through exactly what McGuiness did who didnt choose to start shooting people in the knees because of it!.
How do you suppose those people managed it?"
The few took up armed struggle the many put their money in the collection tin as it went around the pubs of ireland. |
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"You appear to think that the conflict was about a bit of discomfort? You appear to forget that the PIRA didn't even exist at the beginning of the conflict. .
No nowhere did i say it was a bit of discomfort, there were hundreds of thousands of people who went through exactly what McGuiness did who didnt choose to start shooting people in the knees because of it!.
How do you suppose those people managed it?"
There were millions of people living in occupied France yet only a small number joined the resistance. Does that suggest that the rest were happy with it? Your knowledge of history is deplorable. Enjoy your day. I'm out of here for now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You appear to think that the conflict was about a bit of discomfort? You appear to forget that the PIRA didn't even exist at the beginning of the conflict. .
No nowhere did i say it was a bit of discomfort, there were hundreds of thousands of people who went through exactly what McGuiness did who didnt choose to start shooting people in the knees because of it!.
How do you suppose those people managed it?
There were millions of people living in occupied France yet only a small number joined the resistance. Does that suggest that the rest were happy with it? Your knowledge of history is deplorable. Enjoy your day. I'm out of here for now. "
.
So now the British was A Nazi invasion? Hell you think my knowledge of history is bad |
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"You appear to think that the conflict was about a bit of discomfort? You appear to forget that the PIRA didn't even exist at the beginning of the conflict. .
No nowhere did i say it was a bit of discomfort, there were hundreds of thousands of people who went through exactly what McGuiness did who didnt choose to start shooting people in the knees because of it!.
How do you suppose those people managed it?
There were millions of people living in occupied France yet only a small number joined the resistance. Does that suggest that the rest were happy with it? Your knowledge of history is deplorable. Enjoy your day. I'm out of here for now. .
So now the British was A Nazi invasion? Hell you think my knowledge of history is bad "
You're not doing much to advertise the standard of education over there if that's what you took from that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You appear to think that the conflict was about a bit of discomfort? You appear to forget that the PIRA didn't even exist at the beginning of the conflict. .
No nowhere did i say it was a bit of discomfort, there were hundreds of thousands of people who went through exactly what McGuiness did who didnt choose to start shooting people in the knees because of it!.
How do you suppose those people managed it?
There were millions of people living in occupied France yet only a small number joined the resistance. Does that suggest that the rest were happy with it? Your knowledge of history is deplorable. Enjoy your day. I'm out of here for now. .
So now the British was A Nazi invasion? Hell you think my knowledge of history is bad
You're not doing much to advertise the standard of education over there if that's what you took from that. "
.
You jump from one thing to the next with no rational link in your argument!.
What you seem to be saying is that McGuiness was a great guy doing the righteous noble cause against the oppressor. Is that a correct summary?.
Or is your argument that he was a right cunt that learned that being a cunt wasnt the ideal solution? |
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"In simplistic terms... The border between England and Scotland is an ancient historic one that's been there for at least a couple of millenia although not always exactly in the dance place, and marks a distinction between the two peoples. The ancient and historic border between Ireland and Britain exists along our coastline and similarly marks the distinction between our peoples. The current border on our island did not reflect any ancient or historic division that has existed prior to its creation. It was based on a sectarian headcount with precise calculations made to ensure that one religion would have a permanent majority over another. In the process, large numbers of the new artificial majority were discarded on the other side of it and a significant minority of its population objected to its creation in the first place. These were the people who were destined to be its second class citizens who were denied the civil rights the people of Britain were used to until the civil rights movement came along. The only reason it was accepted by the people in the new free state was because it was implemented under threat of "immediate and terrible warfare" to quote Lloyd George.
Btw,the civil rights campaign was seeking no more than one man one vote, access to housing and access to employment, basically fair treatment. They were bludgeoned off the streets by the police force before your army arrived to calm things down. It turned out however that the army's version of calming things down was a bit perverse and so civil rights protesters were then being shot as well as battered. Check out bloody Sunday if you don't believe me. Anyway, for Irish republicans, removing the border is partly about righting what they view as a grevious wrong perpetrated on this island less than a hundred years ago. "
I know the history, all the way back to Cromwell and the 'pale laws'. I am well aware of exactly how the 6 counties came into existence and badly the poor Catholic communities have been treated in NI. I am also painfully aware of just how anti 'taig' (forgive the use of that word) bigotry was present in HM forces in the late 70's and early 80's.
The point I was trying to make was that now that there is voting equality and with the Catholic birthrate outstripping the Protestant birthrate why not take as much as you can from the British establishment and as the Catholics become the dominant political force shape NI as you want it while taking back some of what has been taken from you over centuries.
"So now the British was A Nazi invasion? Hell you think my knowledge of history is bad "
Actually that is pretty much exactly what the English have done. You may want to read about the Tudor 'pacification' of Ireland paying special attention to Elizabeth 1's use of 'scorched earth' tactics killing all (men, women and children) and starving the population into submission. Then when you have read about that piece of glorious English history you can come forward in time by 50 years and have a read about Oliver Cromwell's invasion of Ireland. Pay particular attention to the use of starvation as a weapon, the confiscation of Catholic land, the Penal Laws against Catholics and the use of Indentured Servitude (slavery by another name). I could continue, but I doubt you will be interested.
But I will say that describing the historical treatment of the Irish Catholic population by the English as being just like the Nazi treatment of Jews is not too far off the mark. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In simplistic terms... The border between England and Scotland is an ancient historic one that's been there for at least a couple of millenia although not always exactly in the dance place, and marks a distinction between the two peoples. The ancient and historic border between Ireland and Britain exists along our coastline and similarly marks the distinction between our peoples. The current border on our island did not reflect any ancient or historic division that has existed prior to its creation. It was based on a sectarian headcount with precise calculations made to ensure that one religion would have a permanent majority over another. In the process, large numbers of the new artificial majority were discarded on the other side of it and a significant minority of its population objected to its creation in the first place. These were the people who were destined to be its second class citizens who were denied the civil rights the people of Britain were used to until the civil rights movement came along. The only reason it was accepted by the people in the new free state was because it was implemented under threat of "immediate and terrible warfare" to quote Lloyd George.
Btw,the civil rights campaign was seeking no more than one man one vote, access to housing and access to employment, basically fair treatment. They were bludgeoned off the streets by the police force before your army arrived to calm things down. It turned out however that the army's version of calming things down was a bit perverse and so civil rights protesters were then being shot as well as battered. Check out bloody Sunday if you don't believe me. Anyway, for Irish republicans, removing the border is partly about righting what they view as a grevious wrong perpetrated on this island less than a hundred years ago.
I know the history, all the way back to Cromwell and the 'pale laws'. I am well aware of exactly how the 6 counties came into existence and badly the poor Catholic communities have been treated in NI. I am also painfully aware of just how anti 'taig' (forgive the use of that word) bigotry was present in HM forces in the late 70's and early 80's.
The point I was trying to make was that now that there is voting equality and with the Catholic birthrate outstripping the Protestant birthrate why not take as much as you can from the British establishment and as the Catholics become the dominant political force shape NI as you want it while taking back some of what has been taken from you over centuries.
So now the British was A Nazi invasion? Hell you think my knowledge of history is bad
Actually that is pretty much exactly what the English have done. You may want to read about the Tudor 'pacification' of Ireland paying special attention to Elizabeth 1's use of 'scorched earth' tactics killing all (men, women and children) and starving the population into submission. Then when you have read about that piece of glorious English history you can come forward in time by 50 years and have a read about Oliver Cromwell's invasion of Ireland. Pay particular attention to the use of starvation as a weapon, the confiscation of Catholic land, the Penal Laws against Catholics and the use of Indentured Servitude (slavery by another name). I could continue, but I doubt you will be interested.
But I will say that describing the historical treatment of the Irish Catholic population by the English as being just like the Nazi treatment of Jews is not too far off the mark."
.
Thats all very interesting history but perhaps it would be better in context, now Oliver Cromwell staving people that sounds and was awful, perhaps you could also tell us what wonderful things he was doing to English people while passing his hobby of just starving the Irish?.
Im presuming your point was that Oliver Cromwell was a fine man to everybody else except the Irish?.
I mean lets take the isle of man, inhabited for 6000 years and around 600ad suddenly they start speaking Gaelic? And then there culture becomes Gaelic, how do you think that happens?. Then there conquered and re conquered several times before becoming an oversees island of an empire, your going on about the 1500s as if that time was all rosie and pc and there was no such thing as the Spanish inquisition or religious wars, crown wars, famine, one half of the world was dominated by the ottoman empire the Spanish and the Portuguese were pushing trade routes from colonialism nearly everywhere.
Horrible times when we look back indeed but im afraid thats just how things were
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The 16th century was so terrible nearly every single person in the world could lay claim to justifiably knee capping and blowing up children in 1990!
My great great great great great great great great great great grandad was sold into slavery you know!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Wait one minute.
Now ive googled this Cromwell character it turns out he was massacring the Welsh in tenby, the Scots in Carlisle and the English nearly everywhere!.
Drinkers got it, anybody that didnt pray and anybody that preyed in the wrong way (Catholics).
In fact the wasnt many people he didnt kill which is really ironic as it says here on wiki that he was a very religious man?.
Ha how things change hey |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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In fact id go as far to say as this Cromwell geezer was a bit of a gangster in it for his own wheeze while claiming his religion(puritan) was being persecuted by the papal church(Catholics) all over Europe and therefore was in fact justified in his own persecution of Irish Catholics?.
Wait, i think that was your argument for McGuiness, so if Cromwell was a cunt and ill agree he was, what does that make McGuiness? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I saw his obituary and it stated that he left a widow. The man left hundreds of widows long before his death."
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Yeah but he had a just cause according to some on here, like Oliver Cromwell and kahlid masood they were fighting on the righteous side and will be Marty's with 509 Virgin's in heaven with the big bearded one.
Richard branson |
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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago
lytham st.annes |
"I saw his obituary and it stated that he left a widow. The man left hundreds of widows long before his death..
Yeah but he had a just cause according to some on here, like Oliver Cromwell and kahlid masood they were fighting on the righteous side and will be Marty's with 509 Virgin's in heaven with the big bearded one.
Richard branson "
Have you ever been to Carcassone in France,they have aCastle in the middle of the town,inside is a museum,you can see teal persecution by Roman Catholic in there |
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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago
lytham st.annes |
"I saw his obituary and it stated that he left a widow. The man left hundreds of widows long before his death..
Yeah but he had a just cause according to some on here, like Oliver Cromwell and kahlid masood they were fighting on the righteous side and will be Marty's with 509 Virgin's in heaven with the big bearded one.
Richard branson Have you ever been to Carcassone in France,they have aCastle in the middle of the town,inside is a museum,you can see teal persecution by Roman Catholic in there "
real not teal |
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"Wait one minute.
Now ive googled this Cromwell character it turns out he was massacring the Welsh in tenby, the Scots in Carlisle and the English nearly everywhere!.
Drinkers got it, anybody that didnt pray and anybody that preyed in the wrong way (Catholics).
In fact the wasnt many people he didnt kill... "
Hurrah, your catching on...
Question is have you made the link with the Nazi's yet?
They killed anyone who didn't do things the way they wanted too, German, French, Dutch, Poles, Russians...
But they reserved their most inhuman treatment for the Jews...
Like the English who reserved their most inhuman treatment for Catholics after the Reformation. So you carry on making my points for me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Wait one minute.
Now ive googled this Cromwell character it turns out he was massacring the Welsh in tenby, the Scots in Carlisle and the English nearly everywhere!.
Drinkers got it, anybody that didnt pray and anybody that preyed in the wrong way (Catholics).
In fact the wasnt many people he didnt kill...
Hurrah, your catching on...
Question is have you made the link with the Nazi's yet?
They killed anyone who didn't do things the way they wanted too, German, French, Dutch, Poles, Russians...
But they reserved their most inhuman treatment for the Jews...
Like the English who reserved their most inhuman treatment for Catholics after the Reformation. So you carry on making my points for me."
.
No i havent to be honest, first off you started trying to make out that only the poor Catholics of Ireland were being persecuted by Cromwell which somehow gave them justifying of later criminality in the 1960s but since ive pointed out he practically persecuted everybody your now saying, ahh but they had it worse, like being gassed as a Jew is somehow worse than being gassed as a gay?.
And youve flat out refused my other point about justification, if Catholics were justified by Cromwells actions was Cromwell justified by Catholics actions in Europe?.
Either way Im afraid its all very old history and in my eyes irrelevant to what went on in the 1960s.
So to confirm my argument, the British empire was a cunt as most others were of the day, and McGuiness was a cunt as most so called political martyrs were as well.
Two wrongs dont make a right, shooting people in the back of the head and knee capping people is never justified in those 1960s circumstances, whoever did it!! |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Wait one minute.
Now ive googled this Cromwell character it turns out he was massacring the Welsh in tenby, the Scots in Carlisle and the English nearly everywhere!.
Drinkers got it, anybody that didnt pray and anybody that preyed in the wrong way (Catholics).
In fact the wasnt many people he didnt kill...
Hurrah, your catching on...
Question is have you made the link with the Nazi's yet?
They killed anyone who didn't do things the way they wanted too, German, French, Dutch, Poles, Russians...
But they reserved their most inhuman treatment for the Jews...
Like the English who reserved their most inhuman treatment for Catholics after the Reformation. So you carry on making my points for me..
No i havent to be honest, first off you started trying to make out that only the poor Catholics of Ireland were being persecuted by Cromwell which somehow gave them justifying of later criminality in the 1960s but since ive pointed out he practically persecuted everybody your now saying, ahh but they had it worse, like being gassed as a Jew is somehow worse than being gassed as a gay?.
And youve flat out refused my other point about justification, if Catholics were justified by Cromwells actions was Cromwell justified by Catholics actions in Europe?.
Either way Im afraid its all very old history and in my eyes irrelevant to what went on in the 1960s.
So to confirm my argument, the British empire was a cunt as most others were of the day, and McGuiness was a cunt as most so called political martyrs were as well.
Two wrongs dont make a right, shooting people in the back of the head and knee capping people is never justified in those 1960s circumstances, whoever did it!!"
You've skipped quite a lot of history there, including some potato famines and I'm sure something happened in 1916.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Wait one minute.
Now ive googled this Cromwell character it turns out he was massacring the Welsh in tenby, the Scots in Carlisle and the English nearly everywhere!.
Drinkers got it, anybody that didnt pray and anybody that preyed in the wrong way (Catholics).
In fact the wasnt many people he didnt kill...
Hurrah, your catching on...
Question is have you made the link with the Nazi's yet?
They killed anyone who didn't do things the way they wanted too, German, French, Dutch, Poles, Russians...
But they reserved their most inhuman treatment for the Jews...
Like the English who reserved their most inhuman treatment for Catholics after the Reformation. So you carry on making my points for me..
No i havent to be honest, first off you started trying to make out that only the poor Catholics of Ireland were being persecuted by Cromwell which somehow gave them justifying of later criminality in the 1960s but since ive pointed out he practically persecuted everybody your now saying, ahh but they had it worse, like being gassed as a Jew is somehow worse than being gassed as a gay?.
And youve flat out refused my other point about justification, if Catholics were justified by Cromwells actions was Cromwell justified by Catholics actions in Europe?.
Either way Im afraid its all very old history and in my eyes irrelevant to what went on in the 1960s.
So to confirm my argument, the British empire was a cunt as most others were of the day, and McGuiness was a cunt as most so called political martyrs were as well.
Two wrongs dont make a right, shooting people in the back of the head and knee capping people is never justified in those 1960s circumstances, whoever did it!!
You've skipped quite a lot of history there, including some potato famines and I'm sure something happened in 1916...."
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I didnt skip any history,i was simply replying to others trying to justify McGuiness actions from a historical stand point, lots of things happend in Ireland from 1500 to 1960.
I also never mentioned that great growth period from 1780-1840 where Irelands population hit nearly 9 million and Dublin was regarded as the place to be, not just in Ireland or the empire but in all of Europe!, of course wealth in Ireland was always slightly divided between North and East and south and west.
1916 historically? was much more relevant to McGuiness actions IMO than the 1500s, but anyhow what do you think? |
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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago
lytham st.annes |
"I saw his obituary and it stated that he left a widow. The man left hundreds of widows long before his death..
Yeah but he had a just cause according to some on here, like Oliver Cromwell and kahlid masood they were fighting on the righteous side and will be Marty's with 509 Virgin's in heaven with the big bearded one.
Richard branson "
Have you ever been to Carcassone in France,they have aCastle in the middle of the town,inside is a museum,you can see teal persecution by Roman Catholic in there |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
Paramilitary activity on both sides became an excuse to make millions on the back of their 'religious cause'......little more than Mafia gangs who use protection rackets, drug dealing, money lending and prostitution to establish personal fortunes.
McGuiness saw this coming and turned to peace as a united Ireland slid into second place compared to the fortunes that could be made by these armed thugs.
His cause was hijacked, he realised that he would never see reunification as thuggery took over.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I saw his obituary and it stated that he left a widow. The man left hundreds of widows long before his death..
Yeah but he had a just cause according to some on here, like Oliver Cromwell and kahlid masood they were fighting on the righteous side and will be Marty's with 509 Virgin's in heaven with the big bearded one.
Richard branson Have you ever been to Carcassone in France,they have aCastle in the middle of the town,inside is a museum,you can see teal persecution by Roman Catholic in there "
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No it looks amazing though.
Ah yes the medieval inquisition a very nasty time indeed where the Catholic church basically persecuted everybody who wasnt Catholic. The conditions in there were truly appalling.
I found this letter written on there website.
… you have created a prison called “The Wall”, which would be better called “Hell”. In it you have constructed small cells to inflict pain and to mistreat people using various types of torture. Some prisoners remain in fetters … and are unable to move. They excrete and urinate where they are … Some are placed on the chevelet [an instrument of torture]; many of them have lost the use of their limbs because of the severity of the torture … Life for them is an agony, and death a relief. Under these constraints they affirm as true what is false, preferring to die once than to be thus tortured multiple times. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Of course the medieval inquisition was followed by the Spanish and Portuguese inquisition and for 600 years the papal dictatorship basically tortured everybody in Europe out of their religion and into Catholicism!.
Marvelous people, marvelous times i tell yer, cant understand what people like Cromwell had against them? Obviously im being cynical, that was the way we used to live back then, thank goodness we got past religious dogmatic conflicts hey |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Paramilitary activity on both sides became an excuse to make millions on the back of their 'religious cause'......little more than Mafia gangs who use protection rackets, drug dealing, money lending and prostitution to establish personal fortunes.
McGuiness saw this coming and turned to peace as a united Ireland slid into second place compared to the fortunes that could be made by these armed thugs.
His cause was hijacked, he realised that he would never see reunification as thuggery took over.
"
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You would hardly need to see it coming the IRA had been using criminality to fund the guerilla warfare since the 1800s. The whole thing is a complicated situation, sometimes you can be embroiled in something that you cant walk away from even if you wanted to, once these paramilitary things start to snowball they tend to have a life of their own a bit like alquida and Isis one comes out of the other and once highly regarded leaders are often found with a bullet in the head from their own side and then even if you did walk away you would of course have to face the authorities youve been fighting |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Sinn Fein MP Martin McGuinness admitted he was the IRA gunman who sparked Bloody Sunday with a single shot, according to an informer, the Saville inquiry was told yesterday.
Christopher Clarke QC, counsel for the inquiry into the 1972 killings, revealed three security force documents detailing an informer's claims on Mr McGuinness's role in Londonderry at the time, and pleaded with him to give evidence at the inquiry. He has so far refused to offer a statement.
Mr McGuinness, minister for education in the short-lived power-sharing executive at Stormont, yesterday labelled the informer's allegations "a pathetic fabrication", a British military ploy to divert attention from the Parachute Regiment's killing of 14 civilians.
Sinn Fein said Mr McGuinness would welcome the opportunity to give evidence, although only last week he said he wanted to wait and see if Lord Saville's inquiry was a genuine attempt to get at the truth. He said then: "I have never hidden my past from anyone."
Mr Clarke, on the eighth day of his opening statement, disclosed a confidential document on the debriefing on an IRA informer, code-named Infliction. It was dated April 6, 1984. The crucial passage read: "Martin McGuinness had admitted to Infliction that he personally fired the shot from a Thompson sub-machine gun from Rossville Flats that precipitated the Bloody Sunday episode."
A classified message of May 15, 1984, sent to the RUC, Northern Ireland Office and the British embassy in Dublin, read: "Speaking in confidence, a leading member of the Provisional IRA who no longer has access to the organisation commented that Martin McGuinness personally fired the shot (from a Thompson machine gun on 'single shot') from Rossville flats in Bogside that precipitated the Bloody Sunday episode."
Another document said: "At the time of Bloody Sunday 30 January 1972, McGuinness was a senior member if not OC (officer commanding) of Londonderry PIRA. Although we have no collateral for the above report (the Infliction claim) there is intelligence that McGuinness was actively inolved in PIRA attacks in the city shortly after Bloody Sunday."
Paratroopers shot dead 13 unarmed Catholics, seven of them teenagers, during an illegal anti-internment march in Derry on January 30, 1972. A man who was wounded died five months later. (From the Guardian in 2009)
And let's face it the IRA didn't want people signing up for civil rights and peaceful protest. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whoever invented the phrase "empty vessels make the most noise" was spot on. "
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Come on then, make some counter points instead of personal digs, thats how debates are meant to work? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The above story/theory would fit in with the radio/audio recordings of the day that have 3 types of fire in evidence.
Low velocity (for example a Thompson SMG) single shot
Distant high velocity and echos of high velocity (believed to be Royal Anglian Marksmen in elevated fire positions above a wall)
Close high velocity. (1 Para opening fire believing they have been fired at or had rounds pass close by)
Wasn't everyone shot of suspect age range? Didn't the Paras always claim they couldn't get to bodies and the crowd grabbed the fallen weapons.
I find it very hard to believe a whole company of soldiers could cover up opening fire indescriminay and for no reason. Also only 14 killed out of a crowd of over 2,000 people? Yeh ok |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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And just saying ; The IRA supported the Nazis in WW2
Sinn Fein / IRA, being hard leftists, like to call their opponents "fascists". And indeed there is some truth in it, as regards the hard-core loyalists at least. But SF-IRA are not the people to criticise.
The IRA supported the Nazis in WW2 (the real ones, not just rhetorical ones). They ran safe houses for Nazi spies, aided Nazi intelligence, and even helped Nazi bombers. They planned to bring about a Nazi German invasion of Ireland, and would no doubt have been installed as a quisling government had Germany occupied Ireland.
Introductory reading - secondary sources
Many people refuse to believe the information on this page. Here are some gentle introductions:
"Oh here's to Adolph Hitler"? The IRA and the Nazis, Brian Hanley, History Ireland, May/June 2005.
State within a state: the Nazis in neutral Ireland, David O'Donoghue, History Ireland, November/December 2006.
New evidence on IRA/Nazi links, David O'Donoghue, History Ireland, March/April 2011.
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"Whoever invented the phrase "empty vessels make the most noise" was spot on. .
Come on then, make some counter points instead of personal digs, thats how debates are meant to work? "
There is zero point in debating a complex topic with someone who hasn't even the foggiest notion of what was going on. That's you, by the way. Abraham Lincoln had a phrase to sum up some of your pronouncements.. "sometimes it's better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Now, I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to fab for getting personal but reading your nonsense is giving me a headache. Over the last couple of weeks I've read your Daily Mail informed comments that don't relate to actual historical fact.. One being the assertion that Martin McGuinness was somehow the cause of the conflict. Another is this myth that your glorious boys were the honest brokers caught between the warring factions. Nothing could be further from the truth as it happens. Then there's this thing you do where you quote posts and answer questions that aren't there. You've had me scratching my head so much that I've worn a bald patch on it. It amuses me more than anything but it also makes me wonder what's going on in your head that you know so little about your next door neighbour. You do seem to be enjoying talking to yourself there though so I'd hate to interrupt you with some facts. I tried that already but they seem to be somewhat over your head. Carry on there. I'll just go and read the Daily Mail instead as ironically, it seems to be better informed than your good self and it's not informed at all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Exclusive: Police told to drop investigation into Martin McGuinness's role in 'Bloody Monday'
It has now emerged, following the death of Mr McGuinness at the age of 66 on Monday night, that police officers were allegedly told to drop the investigation against the senior Sinn Fein leader and former IRA chief of staff over the 1972 Claudy bombing - because any prosecution would have been too “politically sensitive.”
Sources have told The Daily Telegraph that detectives with the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) believed by around 2007 that they had accumulated enough evidence against Mr McGuinness to question him over his role in what became known as ‘Bloody Monday’, when three-car bombs were set off in the town in one of the worst outrages of ‘the Troubles’.
The source said: “There was an appetite among a number of PSNI detectives to pursue the case against McGuinness over his role in the Claudy bombings.
“But when they approached senior officers they were told point blank: ‘We are not prosecuting Martin McGuinness.’ It was felt by the top brass of the PSNI that it would have been simply too damaging to the peace process.”
The Claudy bombing took place on 31 July 1972, when three car bombs were blown up on the town’s Main Street, killing nine people, including two teenagers and an eight-year-old girl, Kathryn Eakin.
The title of the forum was how will he be judged. Don't go crying just because people don't canonise the same people you do.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anyone else think that this thread has run its course?
I certainly do and my above post was me bowing out. Actually no, I suppose this one is. "
Good bye.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So in answer to how Martin mcguiness will be judged? Well he wasn't because the British government let justice slide in return for a fragile peace agreement. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anyone else think that this thread has run its course?
I certainly do and my above post was me bowing out. Actually no, I suppose this one is. "
.
Its a shame you had to bow out with more personal digs at me, to be honest, i cant find a single post ive wrote supporting the UKs position so i dont know where you got that from and if thats how its come across to you then i will apologize as my entire argument had actually been a counter to your assertion that McGuiness was somehow a justified revolutionary martyr.
My point is simply that he was a bit of a cunt who used the problems as a disguise for his own twisted vision of the "truth" no different than Khalid masood. |
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"The above story/theory would fit in with the radio/audio recordings of the day that have 3 types of fire in evidence.
Low velocity (for example a Thompson SMG) single shot
Distant high velocity and echos of high velocity (believed to be Royal Anglian Marksmen in elevated fire positions above a wall)
Close high velocity. (1 Para opening fire believing they have been fired at or had rounds pass close by)
Wasn't everyone shot of suspect age range? Didn't the Paras always claim they couldn't get to bodies and the crowd grabbed the fallen weapons.
I find it very hard to believe a whole company of soldiers could cover up opening fire indescriminay and for no reason. Also only 14 killed out of a crowd of over 2,000 people? Yeh ok"
Or it's another conspiracy?
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And still it boils down to the same basic argument...
We are right and you are wrong...
Anyone we kill or persecute deserves it because of what was done by others to us...
Anyone who kills for us is a hero defending our way of life and should be given honours in life and death...
Anyone you kill or persecute is a victim of your hatred and bigotry.
Anyone who kills for you is a criminal terrorist gangster who should be hunted down killed slowly and burn in hell.
It seems to me that there are only two ways to end the cycle of violence. First, is to completely break the will of one side to fight on. Second is to start fresh and stop using past wrongs to justify present and future wrongs and to stop demonising those on the other side because of their past.
As I have said already where Ireland is the issue I am deeply conflicted. |
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"He was a terrorist. Should have been caught, sentenced and hung.
End of."
But that is sort of my point...
His side would say it is their country and it is the English are the terrorists...
Either neither side is right, neither side is wrong, or both sides are right. You cant apply one set of standards to one side and a different set to the other. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He was a terrorist. Should have been caught, sentenced and hung.
End of.
But that is sort of my point...
His side would say it is their country and it is the English are the terrorists...
Either neither side is right, neither side is wrong, or both sides are right. You cant apply one set of standards to one side and a different set to the other."
Blah blah blah blah blah.
He was a terrorist and only changed his ways when finally realising a more successful process didn't involve blowing up innocent people.
The British did not act like terrorists. They tried to bring rule and stability to an area that didn't appreciate it. Big big difference. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"He was a terrorist. Should have been caught, sentenced and hung.
End of.
But that is sort of my point...
His side would say it is their country and it is the English are the terrorists...
Either neither side is right, neither side is wrong, or both sides are right. You cant apply one set of standards to one side and a different set to the other.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
He was a terrorist and only changed his ways when finally realising a more successful process didn't involve blowing up innocent people.
The British did not act like terrorists. They tried to bring rule and stability to an area that didn't appreciate it. Big big difference. "
Did they?
Please explain how you come to make that distinction.
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"Blah blah blah blah blah.
He was a terrorist and only changed his ways when finally realising a more successful process didn't involve blowing up innocent people.
The British did not act like terrorists. They tried to bring rule and stability to an area that didn't appreciate it. Big big difference. "
A question (or 3):
Did you serve in the Armed Forces?
Did you serve in NI?
Have you ever been part of a house search?
Now if like me you can answer yes to all the above and you did not see troops terrorising the poor sods in the houses they were tearing apart then you are either blind, a liar or were not there at height of the troubles.
Of course if you have not served I have an extra question for you:
What the fuck gives you the right to judge a man who grew up and lived all his life in NI when you don't have a fucking clue what his life was like?
And by the way people are not hung (unless like a horse) people are hanged. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He was a terrorist. Should have been caught, sentenced and hung.
End of.
But that is sort of my point...
His side would say it is their country and it is the English are the terrorists...
Either neither side is right, neither side is wrong, or both sides are right. You cant apply one set of standards to one side and a different set to the other.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
He was a terrorist and only changed his ways when finally realising a more successful process didn't involve blowing up innocent people.
The British did not act like terrorists. They tried to bring rule and stability to an area that didn't appreciate it. Big big difference. "
Ever heard of the UVF? UDA? RHD? LVF? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Are we still talking about the murdering ira bastard. He in a hole half way to hell.A wee quiz for you all.
(So when was the last time the ira tried to bomb someone ? ) Answer Oh let me see Tues night the bastard's tried to bomb a police station.
And Who all thinks the terrorist in London is a murdering bastard.
If one terrorist is a bastard then they all are. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Catholics, Protestants, certain sections of the British army / Government , from what I've delved into online, all murdering bastards.
It all had to stop somehow, and thankfully it mostly has. The blame game needs to stop otherwise all it does is fan the embers back into flames again. |
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"Catholics, Protestants, certain sections of the British army / Government , from what I've delved into online, all murdering bastards.
It all had to stop somehow, and thankfully it mostly has. The blame game needs to stop otherwise all it does is fan the embers back into flames again."
Agreed! |
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"He was a terrorist. Should have been caught, sentenced and hung.
End of.
But that is sort of my point...
His side would say it is their country and it is the English are the terrorists...
Either neither side is right, neither side is wrong, or both sides are right. You cant apply one set of standards to one side and a different set to the other.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
He was a terrorist and only changed his ways when finally realising a more successful process didn't involve blowing up innocent people.
The British did not act like terrorists. They tried to bring rule and stability to an area that didn't appreciate it. Big big difference. "
Opening fire on peaceful protesters is bringing rule and stability?
Murdering unarmed civilians in cold blood at a checkpoint isnt terrorism? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Killing my RUC uncle isn't terrorism then . And anyone who's in the streets in a middle of a roit deserves anything they got.peacefull so no petrol bombs stones shots were fired etc.
The point is he's a Bastard and the cunts on Tuesday night are bastard's . What so called peace you living in ? Oh big talking in Dublin come up and tell the families of the army and police dead that their dead are tarrorist.
Tell the families in London the same.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Killing my RUC uncle isn't terrorism then . And anyone who's in the streets in a middle of a roit deserves anything they got.peacefull so no petrol bombs stones shots were fired etc.
The point is he's a Bastard and the cunts on Tuesday night are bastard's . What so called peace you living in ? Oh big talking in Dublin come up and tell the families of the army and police dead that their dead are tarrorist.
Tell the families in London the same.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Catholics, Protestants, certain sections of the British army / Government , from what I've delved into online, all murdering bastards.
It all had to stop somehow, and thankfully it mostly has. The blame game needs to stop otherwise all it does is fan the embers back into flames again."
So who do you blame for Jan shooting of a police officer and last Tues bombing. it has not stopped . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So who do you blame for Jan shooting of a police officer and last Tues bombing. it has not stopped . "
Cindy you have asked the same question repeatedly. Martin McGuinness tried to move forward and find a way towards peace, while you remain full of hate.
There is no right in war, it's worse when that war is neighbor on neighbor.
British government armed the terrorists in Syria, then when they became IS the same government dropped bombs on them and the civilians around them.
You have a right to hate, so do many others, but until everyone puts down the hate, peace will be hard to find. |
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"Killing my RUC uncle isn't terrorism then . And anyone who's in the streets in a middle of a roit deserves anything they got.peacefull so no petrol bombs stones shots were fired etc.
The point is he's a Bastard and the cunts on Tuesday night are bastard's . What so called peace you living in ? Oh big talking in Dublin come up and tell the families of the army and police dead that their dead are tarrorist.
Tell the families in London the same.
"
Despite living in Dublin I seem to know more about what happened than you. And I have family in friends in the North as well including one whose father was killed.
The Troubles started in the late 60's long after the IRA had disbanded. The 3 starting points were the formation of the loyalist terrorist group the UVF, the attacks on Catholics during civil rights marches and the introduction of the British Army.
The British army was originally brought in to protect Catholics from the violence from the protestants. Catholics had peaceful protests against the bigotry and hatred and discrimination from the protestant community and government.
The UKs Cameron report found “unnecessary and ill-controlled force in the dispersal of the Catholic demonstrators” by the RUC. This led to the army being introduced.
After the army were introduced they were welcomed by Catholics as they were seen as a better option than the bigoted, violent RUC. But the army was even worse.
In response to the still peaceful civil rights march the UVF firebombed Catholic homes, businesses and even schools.
In the Spring of 69 the UVF bombed electrical and water stations in Belfast to try and blame the civil rights movement and the non-active IRA.
Hundreds and hundreds of peaceful protesters were assaulted at marches by Protestants and sometimes the RUC.
At this time the RUC broke into a house containing an entirely innocent family and beat the father to death and beat his two daughters. One of whom was bed ridden after a recent surgery.
The violence against the Catholics was so bad that the Republic set up field hospitals and shelter for fleeing Catholics from the murder, abuse and persecution.
The UKs Hunt Committee found the RUC to be abusive and recommended they be disarmed to prevent further murders.
The British shot dead 5 innocent Catholic civilians on the Falls Road in 1970 without justification.
Only now. At this point in 1971. After 4 years of murder and assault. After decades of abuse and discrimination. After state bodies like the RUC and British Army have beaten, murdered, assaulted, burned homes and businesses. Aftet the UVF operated with impunity and fire bombed schools and homes. Only now does the IRA begin pursuing offensive attacks against the British.
And why? So they could have jobs instead of being discriminated against. So that they could have the same voting rights as everyone else in the UK. So that they didnt have to be abused and murdered by the people meant to protect them.
People can say they dont agree with Martin McGuinness' methods. But put yourself in 1971, read what happened and tell me what other option would have brought an end to the bigotry and violence.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I remember the stories...
The killings...
The sadness...
Not understanding why catholics wanted protestants dead and vice versa, thankfully I still don't!
It never bothered me what religious beliefs of others..
I seen grown men (if that's what you could call them) spitting on children as they went to school on the Garvaghy road and I seen two little boys killed on mothers day...
Both sickened me...
I could name so much more instances but it only becomes repetitive and like the people who's trying to provoke with hatred biter remarks...I feel sorry for you that you have no forgiveness and just eaten away with hate and anger...
Martin McGuinness ended a fight that started many yrs before he was born.
RIP...
 |
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"I remember the stories...
The killings...
The sadness...
Not understanding why catholics wanted protestants dead and vice versa, thankfully I still don't!
It never bothered me what religious beliefs of others..
I seen grown men (if that's what you could call them) spitting on children as they went to school on the Garvaghy road and I seen two little boys killed on mothers day...
Both sickened me...
I could name so much more instances but it only becomes repetitive and like the people who's trying to provoke with hatred biter remarks...I feel sorry for you that you have no forgiveness and just eaten away with hate and anger...
Martin McGuinness ended a fight that started many yrs before he was born.
RIP...
"
Ever now and then I read a post and think 'I wish I had posted that'.
This is one of those posts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Blah blah blah blah blah.
He was a terrorist and only changed his ways when finally realising a more successful process didn't involve blowing up innocent people.
The British did not act like terrorists. They tried to bring rule and stability to an area that didn't appreciate it. Big big difference.
A question (or 3):
Did you serve in the Armed Forces?
Did you serve in NI?
Have you ever been part of a house search?
Now if like me you can answer yes to all the above and you did not see troops terrorising the poor sods in the houses they were tearing apart then you are either blind, a liar or were not there at height of the troubles.
Of course if you have not served I have an extra question for you:
What the fuck gives you the right to judge a man who grew up and lived all his life in NI when you don't have a fucking clue what his life was like?
And by the way people are not hung (unless like a horse) people are hanged. "
I can answer yes and I can't tell you what I did. So what gives an insignificant individual like you the right to make a judgement against me. I know what I have heard and seen with my own eyes. So get off your moral high horse and learn a little respect for your superiors.
And why are you trying to explain to me the difference between hung and hanged? Care to share why? |
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"
I can answer yes and I can't tell you what I did. So what gives an insignificant individual like you the right to make a judgement against me. I know what I have heard and seen with my own eyes. So get off your moral high horse and learn a little respect for your superiors.
And why are you trying to explain to me the difference between hung and hanged? Care to share why?"
I have had to step away from the keyboard many times in the last 6 hours, but am now calm enough to answer you without loosing my cool...
My superior, you wish! LoL
I took a look at your profile, your 48. Your not old enough to have served in NI at the height of the troubles. In fact the earliest you could have served as a 'but fuck' private or 'piss ant' ensign is 87, and at that time you would have been supervised tying your boots! As for your dark 'I can't tell you what I did' hint at being in the special forces, MAWTC, 40 Coy, 92 Int and Sec NI, MI5 or special Branch, you are talking bollocks! By the time you would have had enough experience to join any of those units either they had been disbanded or the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement were so far advanced that the troubles were for all intents and purposes over. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I can answer yes and I can't tell you what I did. So what gives an insignificant individual like you the right to make a judgement against me. I know what I have heard and seen with my own eyes. So get off your moral high horse and learn a little respect for your superiors.
And why are you trying to explain to me the difference between hung and hanged? Care to share why?
I have had to step away from the keyboard many times in the last 6 hours, but am now calm enough to answer you without loosing my cool...
My superior, you wish! LoL
I took a look at your profile, your 48. Your not old enough to have served in NI at the height of the troubles. In fact the earliest you could have served as a 'but fuck' private or 'piss ant' ensign is 87, and at that time you would have been supervised tying your boots! As for your dark 'I can't tell you what I did' hint at being in the special forces, MAWTC, 40 Coy, 92 Int and Sec NI, MI5 or special Branch, you are talking bollocks! By the time you would have had enough experience to join any of those units either they had been disbanded or the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement were so far advanced that the troubles were for all intents and purposes over."
fair comment |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"
I can answer yes and I can't tell you what I did. So what gives an insignificant individual like you the right to make a judgement against me. I know what I have heard and seen with my own eyes. So get off your moral high horse and learn a little respect for your superiors.
And why are you trying to explain to me the difference between hung and hanged? Care to share why?
I have had to step away from the keyboard many times in the last 6 hours, but am now calm enough to answer you without loosing my cool...
My superior, you wish! LoL
I took a look at your profile, your 48. Your not old enough to have served in NI at the height of the troubles. In fact the earliest you could have served as a 'but fuck' private or 'piss ant' ensign is 87, and at that time you would have been supervised tying your boots! As for your dark 'I can't tell you what I did' hint at being in the special forces, MAWTC, 40 Coy, 92 Int and Sec NI, MI5 or special Branch, you are talking bollocks! By the time you would have had enough experience to join any of those units either they had been disbanded or the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement were so far advanced that the troubles were for all intents and purposes over.
Just proves you aren't very bright. You never answered my question either traitor boy."
Jesus! Would you put the bloody shovel down, man? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I can answer yes and I can't tell you what I did. So what gives an insignificant individual like you the right to make a judgement against me. I know what I have heard and seen with my own eyes. So get off your moral high horse and learn a little respect for your superiors.
And why are you trying to explain to me the difference between hung and hanged? Care to share why?
I have had to step away from the keyboard many times in the last 6 hours, but am now calm enough to answer you without loosing my cool...
My superior, you wish! LoL
I took a look at your profile, your 48. Your not old enough to have served in NI at the height of the troubles. In fact the earliest you could have served as a 'but fuck' private or 'piss ant' ensign is 87, and at that time you would have been supervised tying your boots! As for your dark 'I can't tell you what I did' hint at being in the special forces, MAWTC, 40 Coy, 92 Int and Sec NI, MI5 or special Branch, you are talking bollocks! By the time you would have had enough experience to join any of those units either they had been disbanded or the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement were so far advanced that the troubles were for all intents and purposes over.
Just proves you aren't very bright. You never answered my question either traitor boy.
Jesus! Would you put the bloody shovel down, man? "
Fair point. Stepping away from the thread  |
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"I can see why the other threads were closed .
Wish I hadn't started this one 
Apologies to all "
No need to apologise at all.
This thread has served a purpose, it dramatically shows how insidious hate is, and how quickly and easily those who are hating can turn on anyone who refuses to hate with them. It is a real shame, but this thread has quite accurately reflected the hate that has led to so many religious wars around the world. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I can see why the other threads were closed .
Wish I hadn't started this one
Apologies to all
No need to apologise at all.
This thread has served a purpose, it dramatically shows how insidious hate is, and how quickly and easily those who are hating can turn on anyone who refuses to hate with them. It is a real shame, but this thread has quite accurately reflected the hate that has led to so many religious wars around the world."
Thank you .
Tho if I had my way we wouldn't have any Religions !
But I guess that's a thread for another day |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can see why the other threads were closed .
Wish I hadn't started this one
Apologies to all
No need to apologise at all.
This thread has served a purpose, it dramatically shows how insidious hate is, and how quickly and easily those who are hating can turn on anyone who refuses to hate with them. It is a real shame, but this thread has quite accurately reflected the hate that has led to so many religious wars around the world."
Do you think the same about culture?
My family never let go of their culture. It's theirs to keep. However, we're inclusive. We made so many friends with our respect and made them part of the family. Made our food and drinks. Turned vegetarians into normal meat eating people .
But they in return included if into their culture. In time our values and rituals changed but in the end we are proud to be Chilean, they are proud to be British. We were patriotic and inclusive. So when friends say they cannot be patriotic because they're labeled as racist. I tell them not to be pathetic and be proud of who you are.
That's a different thread. Sorry. |
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"I can see why the other threads were closed .
Wish I hadn't started this one
Apologies to all
No need to apologise at all.
This thread has served a purpose, it dramatically shows how insidious hate is, and how quickly and easily those who are hating can turn on anyone who refuses to hate with them. It is a real shame, but this thread has quite accurately reflected the hate that has led to so many religious wars around the world."
this..
hate is such a negative, draining, time consuming and changing of the person who holds it like a mill stone..
it infects and distorts reality..
it sucks.. |
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"this..
hate is such a negative, draining, time consuming and changing of the person who holds it like a mill stone..
it infects and distorts reality..
it sucks.."
Truth is there are three groups of people in this world, haters who believe it is their right to kill anyone who does no subscribe to their whatever their view. Those who although they despise everything the haters stand for and challenge it at every opportunity would willingly die to protect the haters right to hate. And a final pathetic group of 'curtain twitchers' who look the other way and refuse to be dragged into any conflict that does not directly involve them.
I for one am proud to say I am part of the second group. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"this..
hate is such a negative, draining, time consuming and changing of the person who holds it like a mill stone..
it infects and distorts reality..
it sucks..
Truth is there are three groups of people in this world, haters who believe it is their right to kill anyone who does no subscribe to their whatever their view. Those who although they despise everything the haters stand for and challenge it at every opportunity would willingly die to protect the haters right to hate. And a final pathetic group of 'curtain twitchers' who look the other way and refuse to be dragged into any conflict that does not directly involve them.
I for one am proud to say I am part of the second group."
.
Im in group four!
Naw .
No honestly ive never really found anything that bothers me that much that i feel like killing people!
It could be me, maybe im just lazy |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"this..
hate is such a negative, draining, time consuming and changing of the person who holds it like a mill stone..
it infects and distorts reality..
it sucks..
Truth is there are three groups of people in this world, haters who believe it is their right to kill anyone who does no subscribe to their whatever their view. Those who although they despise everything the haters stand for and challenge it at every opportunity would willingly die to protect the haters right to hate. And a final pathetic group of 'curtain twitchers' who look the other way and refuse to be dragged into any conflict that does not directly involve them.
I for one am proud to say I am part of the second group..
Im in group four!
Naw .
No honestly ive never really found anything that bothers me that much that i feel like killing people!
It could be me, maybe im just lazy "
group one does appeal |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He'll be looked on positively. You only need to look at who attended his funeral to realise that. "
Thats no reflection tbh.... you didn't see who didn't attend.
Like most people he'll be looked on positively by those he fought for. Those outside see a wider picture. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He'll be looked on positively. You only need to look at who attended his funeral to realise that. "
He is a hero...
And deserves the respect he got...rip |
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"Don't think many people involved in killing innocent women and children are classed as hero's..."
That doesn't hold true. Many people above you here and on the other threads about the same topic appeared to view British soldiers who had killed innocent women and children as heroes. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Don't think many people involved in killing innocent women and children are classed as hero's..."
What are you talking about?
Churchill (somewhat inexplicably, IMO) is viewed as a hero by some, and I'm pretty sure that he was responsible for just that, or does he not count, because he went abroad to do it? |
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