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Ben Carsons suggests slaves were immigrants...
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Well he is strictly correct...
They were Africans who left Africa and went to America. That is the definition of a migrant. I understand that voluntarily migration and being enslaved are very different in nature but the act of movement from one place to another are the same. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And that is one guy who really ought to know better."
Just because he's black, doesn't stop him being an idiot.
Or, as has been suggested, a smoke screen. |
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"Well he is strictly correct...
They were Africans who left Africa and went to America. That is the definition of a migrant. I understand that voluntarily migration and being enslaved are very different in nature but the act of movement from one place to another are the same. "
That's like saying a burglar is a visitor or a ra@ist is a sexual partner or the victims of the holocaust were having a change of scenery and living an alternative life..
If it's enforced it's not the same as voluntary of even those fleeing conflict or persecution for other issues..
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
That’s what America is about,” Carson said. “A land of dreams and opportunity. There were other immigrants who came here in the bottom of slave ships, worked even longer, even harder for less. But they too had a dream that one day their sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, great grandsons, great granddaughters might pursue prosperity and happiness in this land.”
Samuel L Jackson's reply: OK!! Ben Carson....I can't! Immigrants ? In the bottom of SLAVE SHIPS??!! MUTHAFUKKA PLEASE!! |
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“A land of dreams and opportunity. There were other immigrants who came here in the bottom of slave ships, worked even longer, even harder for less"
How can you work longer and harder for less, than a slave? What a ridiculous comment. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The african holocaust is now immigration .I guess the 2 to 3 million slaves at the bottom of the atlantic had the wrong paper work (extreme vetting)The Jewish gas chambers are probably showers at a holiday camp.  |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"“A land of dreams and opportunity. There were other immigrants who came here in the bottom of slave ships, worked even longer, even harder for less"
How can you work longer and harder for less, than a slave? What a ridiculous comment."
Bootstrapping taken to the extreme. |
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"How can you work longer and harder for less, than a slave? What a ridiculous comment."
Really quite easily...
What your failing to realise is that for all that was wrong with slavery a slave was housed, fed and cared for within a community from enslavement to grave. I expect that there are many in the USA who would willingly sign away their freedom for that security today. |
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"How can you work longer and harder for less, than a slave? What a ridiculous comment.
Really quite easily...
What your failing to realise is that for all that was wrong with slavery a slave was housed, fed and cared for within a community from enslavement to grave. I expect that there are many in the USA who would willingly sign away their freedom for that security today."
Really? And whipped, hung, burnt for not working hard enough, no prospect for anything else until death?
I don't think so. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How can you work longer and harder for less, than a slave? What a ridiculous comment.
Really quite easily...
What your failing to realise is that for all that was wrong with slavery a slave was housed, fed and cared for within a community from enslavement to grave. I expect that there are many in the USA who would willingly sign away their freedom for that security today."
Yeah, they were really well cared for when the chains came out and the whipping started. How well they were looked after when the women were r@ped and the men were hobbled for trying to escape their life of luxury.
I'd love to sign my life away for that kind of security. NOT! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How can you work longer and harder for less, than a slave? What a ridiculous comment.
Really quite easily...
What your failing to realise is that for all that was wrong with slavery a slave was housed, fed and cared for within a community from enslavement to grave. I expect that there are many in the USA who would willingly sign away their freedom for that security today."
They were also beaten daily whipped and sexually assaulted at a whim and dehumanized.Had their children stolen from them and their language and culture purged from memory.Who wants to sign up for that.You're fucking absurd. |
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"Yeah, they were really well cared for when the chains came out and the whipping started. How well they were looked after when the women were r@ped and the men were hobbled for trying to escape their life of luxury.
I'd love to sign my life away for that kind of security. NOT!"
Not all slaves were treated badly. In fact according to much of what I have read most slaves were highly highly prised valuable assets that received good treatment and were very well looked after and cared for from cradle to grave. In fact according to the histories I have read the growth of the KKK came from the fact that most slave communities were better cared for than the free white share croppers who attempted to make a subsistence living off the poorer land owned by the big cotton estates.
I am not defending slavery, I always say we have to judge things by the worst they produce, but this does not mean we have to ignore the average and the best. |
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"They were also beaten daily whipped and sexually assaulted at a whim and dehumanized.Had their children stolen from them and their language and culture purged from memory.Who wants to sign up for that.You're fucking absurd."
Am I fucking absurd?
I expect that the vast majority of the 1300 or so who starve to death in the USA each year may well swap their freedom for a cot and 3 hots daily.
After all many Americans are quite willing to swap their freedom for a prison cell for life because the life expectancy is longer on death row than in the projects...
Or maybe you don't think of life with hard labour in a penitentiary as slavery because its been judicially imposed? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yeah, they were really well cared for when the chains came out and the whipping started. How well they were looked after when the women were r@ped and the men were hobbled for trying to escape their life of luxury.
I'd love to sign my life away for that kind of security. NOT!
Not all slaves were treated badly. In fact according to much of what I have read most slaves were highly highly prised valuable assets that received good treatment and were very well looked after and cared for from cradle to grave. In fact according to the histories I have read the growth of the KKK came from the fact that most slave communities were better cared for than the free white share croppers who attempted to make a subsistence living off the poorer land owned by the big cotton estates.
I am not defending slavery, I always say we have to judge things by the worst they produce, but this does not mean we have to ignore the average and the best."
There is no best or good in slavery.Slaves were valuable like cattle is valuable.If you see good in humans being owned like cattle your a vile human.Sure there were house slaves and even little black boys and girls kept as toys for their childen to dress them up like dolls.Of course they were r#ped later on.You're an apoligist. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They were also beaten daily whipped and sexually assaulted at a whim and dehumanized.Had their children stolen from them and their language and culture purged from memory.Who wants to sign up for that.You're fucking absurd.
Am I fucking absurd?
I expect that the vast majority of the 1300 or so who starve to death in the USA each year may well swap their freedom for a cot and 3 hots daily.
After all many Americans are quite willing to swap their freedom for a prison cell for life because the life expectancy is longer on death row than in the projects...
Or maybe you don't think of life with hard labour in a penitentiary as slavery because its been judicially imposed? "
1300! jesus fucking christ are you comparing 1300 people starving and dying to 20 million slaves..Fuck me.. |
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"1300! jesus fucking christ are you comparing 1300 people starving and dying to 20 million slaves..Fuck me.."
I am not comparing anything.
I am saying that things are not as black and white as you paint them. I am not condoning the use of slaves by Europeans. But I am saying it was not as bad as you are saying it was and I can prove it! |
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"1300! jesus fucking christ are you comparing 1300 people starving and dying to 20 million slaves..Fuck me..
I am not comparing anything.
I am saying that things are not as black and white as you paint them. I am not condoning the use of slaves by Europeans. But I am saying it was not as bad as you are saying it was and I can prove it!"
Which bit of the 10-20 million dead during captivity and transport wasn't that bad?
Then explain why forced labour of an innocent person, brutality, removal of all rights and captivity isn't as bad as made out. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
Slavery in any form, be it modern or otherwise, has absolutely no place in society no matter what political fence that you sit on.
I cannot believe that this is still being debated today I really can't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"1300! jesus fucking christ are you comparing 1300 people starving and dying to 20 million slaves..Fuck me..
I am not comparing anything.
I am saying that things are not as black and white as you paint them. I am not condoning the use of slaves by Europeans. But I am saying it was not as bad as you are saying it was and I can prove it!"
Having travelled to Juffurhe, the home village of Kunta Kinte, and listened to the story of slavery from that region, I feel it's only fair to point out slavery was not the sole provenance of white Europeans. Black tribal leaders happily colluded and benefited from the slave trade just as much as the whites they traded the slaves with. Most black Africans that are familiar with that dark part of their history will agree that they, themselves, had a significant role to play in the slave trade.
This, in no way, condones what was a major crime against humanity, just highlights that there was a shared responsibility. Slavery was an evil business carried out by those seeking to enhance their wealth at the expense of those poor souls.
To suggest they were 'migrants' or were 'highly prized assets' or 'well cared for' is stretching credibility beyond breaking point. |
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Here are the simple facts about slavery.
firstly the slave trade has been controlled by the same people since the dawn of history. The Arabs.
When travelling the Arab world it is highly noticeable that there are no indigenous Africans in the Arab world. This is because the Arabs did not allow slave babies to live and killed all slaves who were no longer productive.
When Europeans discovered the Americas and needed labour to exploit the lands they approached the Arabs who set up coastal enclaves with slave markets where the Arabs guaranteed European safety in order for the Arabs to sell slaves.
During the time that Europeans were involved in the slave trade anyone taken slave went one of 2 ways. To the markets on the African coast or across the Sahara.
Those that went to the Arab world never had a chance to reproduce and were lost.
Those that went over the ocean, regardless of how bad their treatment was, regardless of the humiliations they suffered, regardless of the treatment, discrimination and humiliation their ancestors have suffered and are still suffering today. They got to reproduce, the African American community today is the living proof that compared to the alternative being a slave of a European was not that bad.
I am not condoning slavery, I most certainly am not claiming it is good. But it can be the lesser of 2 evils, and I am definitely saying that if it will extend your life most will choose it over death. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Slavery in any form, be it modern or otherwise, has absolutely no place in society no matter what political fence that you sit on.
I cannot believe that this is still being debated today I really can't. "
.
Its about context though, today yes slavery really shouldnt be in operation anywhere by anyone, however if we go back 300 years to a point in time where children working from the age of 4 was the norm, slavery was the norm and had been for thousands of years, the Egyptians were big slave uses 5000 years ago, the Barbary coast enslaved millions of white Europeans, the Europeans enslaved millions of black Africans, black Africans enslaved millions of other Africans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Indians the whole world and commerce general revolved around slavery of one form or another including most of the British navy who press ganged people into slavery.
Yes today the world has moved on and we no longer do things we did hundreds of years ago |
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"the British navy who press ganged people into slavery.
"
Actually that is a partial if not total myth. The Navy only pressed experienced seamen and all seamen had to registrar for call up in times of national emergency. The press was more like conscription. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the British navy who press ganged people into slavery.
Actually that is a partial if not total myth. The Navy only pressed experienced seamen and all seamen had to registrar for call up in times of national emergency. The press was more like conscription. "
.
Ben hur row well and live  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here are the simple facts about slavery.
firstly the slave trade has been controlled by the same people since the dawn of history. The Arabs.
When travelling the Arab world it is highly noticeable that there are no indigenous Africans in the Arab world. This is because the Arabs did not allow slave babies to live and killed all slaves who were no longer productive.
When Europeans discovered the Americas and needed labour to exploit the lands they approached the Arabs who set up coastal enclaves with slave markets where the Arabs guaranteed European safety in order for the Arabs to sell slaves.
During the time that Europeans were involved in the slave trade anyone taken slave went one of 2 ways. To the markets on the African coast or across the Sahara.
Those that went to the Arab world never had a chance to reproduce and were lost.
Those that went over the ocean, regardless of how bad their treatment was, regardless of the humiliations they suffered, regardless of the treatment, discrimination and humiliation their ancestors have suffered and are still suffering today. They got to reproduce, the African American community today is the living proof that compared to the alternative being a slave of a European was not that bad.
I am not condoning slavery, I most certainly am not claiming it is good. But it can be the lesser of 2 evils, and I am definitely saying that if it will extend your life most will choose it over death. "
I'm not quite sure where you get your weird view of anthropology from but the last time I looked, a fairly significant part of the Arab world was in Africa so I'm not sure how you deduce there are no indigenous Africans in the Arab world?
Whilst it is true that the Arabs played a large part in the slave trade it is simply not true that they controlled it in it's entirety.
There wouldn't have been a slave trade as we usually recognise it were it not for the needs of the Europeans that developed America.
Fort James island in The Gambia was the major point for the slave trade from central Africa and was developed and first built upon by the Portuguese, not Arabs. The UNESCO trained guides that show visitors around the site have, I think, a better understanding of this than either you or I, and I'm inclined to believe them when they told me of the culpability and involvement of their own race in the development and continuation of the slave trade. |
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"I'm not quite sure where you get your weird view of anthropology from but the last time I looked, a fairly significant part of the Arab world was in Africa so I'm not sure how you deduce there are no indigenous Africans in the Arab world?"
Maybe I should have been more biologically correct in terminology and said Negro when referring to Africans and pointed out that Arabs are Caucasian. My bad, sorry.
"Whilst it is true that the Arabs played a large part in the slave trade it is simply not true that they controlled it in it's entirety.
There wouldn't have been a slave trade as we usually recognise it were it not for the needs of the Europeans that developed America.
Fort James island in The Gambia was the major point for the slave trade from central Africa and was developed and first built upon by the Portuguese, not Arabs. The UNESCO trained guides that show visitors around the site have, I think, a better understanding of this than either you or I, and I'm inclined to believe them when they told me of the culpability and involvement of their own race in the development and continuation of the slave trade. "
I take it that when you visited Fort James you also visited the Arab Slave market at Albadarr or any of the others that were brought down the river from the Arab Slave markets in the interior?(where the slaves were fist sold). Did you notice the Mosques? I wonder if you could hazard a guess as to how they got there? Could it be that they were originally built by the Arabs that controlled the African slave trade? |
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"The 'it could be worse / not as bad as US hunger today' type stuff is the jaw dropper."
but the point is it was worse for those shipped to the Arab world. And I never compared mass slavery to hunger in the US today. Others in their usual way chose not to read what I wrote but what they wanted to read. People are very good at that here.
What I suggested is that freedom to die of starvation is a tyranny every bit as bad if not worse than that of the tyranny of slavery and that the starving will gladly surrender their freedom for sustenance.
It is call the survival instinct.
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By *onyxptMan
over a year ago
st neots, living in Albufeira-Algarve-Portugal |
"I'm not quite sure where you get your weird view of anthropology from but the last time I looked, a fairly significant part of the Arab world was in Africa so I'm not sure how you deduce there are no indigenous Africans in the Arab world?
Maybe I should have been more biologically correct in terminology and said Negro when referring to Africans and pointed out that Arabs are Caucasian. My bad, sorry.
Whilst it is true that the Arabs played a large part in the slave trade it is simply not true that they controlled it in it's entirety.
There wouldn't have been a slave trade as we usually recognise it were it not for the needs of the Europeans that developed America.
Fort James island in The Gambia was the major point for the slave trade from central Africa and was developed and first built upon by the Portuguese, not Arabs. The UNESCO trained guides that show visitors around the site have, I think, a better understanding of this than either you or I, and I'm inclined to believe them when they told me of the culpability and involvement of their own race in the development and continuation of the slave trade.
I take it that when you visited Fort James you also visited the Arab Slave market at Albadarr or any of the others that were brought down the river from the Arab Slave markets in the interior?(where the slaves were fist sold). Did you notice the Mosques? I wonder if you could hazard a guess as to how they got there? Could it be that they were originally built by the Arabs that controlled the African slave trade?"
Its no use will !
Some on here prefer to their own beliefs and emotional outraged point of view to facts!
As the saying goes: "If we choose to ignore History we are condemned to repeat it ! "
Same can be said for distorting it !
Portuguese and other European who engaged in slave trading bought them from the Arabs , who in turn exploited the normal tribal rivalry to capture (harvest) their merchandise !
Does anybody know where the word "Kaffir", much associated with South Africa white regime came from ?  |
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By *onyxptMan
over a year ago
st neots, living in Albufeira-Algarve-Portugal |
"The 'it could be worse / not as bad as US hunger today' type stuff is the jaw dropper.
but the point is it was worse for those shipped to the Arab world. And I never compared mass slavery to hunger in the US today. Others in their usual way chose not to read what I wrote but what they wanted to read. People are very good at that here.
What I suggested is that freedom to die of starvation is a tyranny every bit as bad if not worse than that of the tyranny of slavery and that the starving will gladly surrender their freedom for sustenance.
It is call the survival instinct.
"
 |
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"The 'it could be worse / not as bad as US hunger today' type stuff is the jaw dropper.
but the point is it was worse for those shipped to the Arab world. And I never compared mass slavery to hunger in the US today. Others in their usual way chose not to read what I wrote but what they wanted to read. People are very good at that here.
What I suggested is that freedom to die of starvation is a tyranny every bit as bad if not worse than that of the tyranny of slavery and that the starving will gladly surrender their freedom for sustenance.
It is call the survival instinct.
"
Well, you directly compared hunger in the US to slavery and said the starving would choose slavery.
People will do all manner of things in a survival situation. That doesn't mean those things are acceptable in day-day planned society. |
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"Well, you directly compared hunger in the US to slavery and said the starving would choose slavery.
People will do all manner of things in a survival situation. That doesn't mean those things are acceptable in day-day planned society."
I never said slavery was acceptable, I said that I could understand how slavery could easily become a more welcome option to the alternative.
I still say that I think the 1300 or so who will starve to death in the USA this year would more than likely find slavery a more palatable alternative if offered the choice. And I notice that not a single remark has been passed on my comment about the 150,000 or so US state slaves serving life with hard labour. Seems that brand of slavery is OK. |
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"Well, you directly compared hunger in the US to slavery and said the starving would choose slavery.
People will do all manner of things in a survival situation. That doesn't mean those things are acceptable in day-day planned society.
I never said slavery was acceptable, I said that I could understand how slavery could easily become a more welcome option to the alternative.
I still say that I think the 1300 or so who will starve to death in the USA this year would more than likely find slavery a more palatable alternative if offered the choice. And I notice that not a single remark has been passed on my comment about the 150,000 or so US state slaves serving life with hard labour. Seems that brand of slavery is OK."
Fair enough, I agree you didn't say it was acceptable.
But it's a meaningless argument saying 1300 starving people might choose slavery instead. They might also choose all manner of vile alternatives - it's a pointless argument. |
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"Fair enough, I agree you didn't say it was acceptable.
But it's a meaningless argument saying 1300 starving people might choose slavery instead. They might also choose all manner of vile alternatives - it's a pointless argument."
Our heads work very differently...
I guess you believe democracy is always preferable to dictatorship. And I would further bet that most here would agree with you.
However I don't believe that.
I believe that a benign dictatorship (say like that of Bhutan until recently) is infinity more preferable to a malign democracy (say like the one in the USA where about a quarter of its population are denied medical care in the name of freedom to choose).
I suppose it is all about which way you choose to look at any issue, the sort of education you have and what personal experiences colour your views. |
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"Fair enough, I agree you didn't say it was acceptable.
But it's a meaningless argument saying 1300 starving people might choose slavery instead. They might also choose all manner of vile alternatives - it's a pointless argument.
Our heads work very differently...
I guess you believe democracy is always preferable to dictatorship. And I would further bet that most here would agree with you.
However I don't believe that.
I believe that a benign dictatorship (say like that of Bhutan until recently) is infinity more preferable to a malign democracy (say like the one in the USA where about a quarter of its population are denied medical care in the name of freedom to choose).
I suppose it is all about which way you choose to look at any issue, the sort of education you have and what personal experiences colour your views."
You'd guess wrong.
My point about meaningless comparisons stands. |
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By *onyxptMan
over a year ago
st neots, living in Albufeira-Algarve-Portugal |
"I liked Samuel L Jackson tweet in reply to the subject
I'll let you go find it 
"
Really Fabio !
So what does that say about you ?
When an ass like S. L. Jackson cant , wont, or doesn't know how to respond , e resorts to offensive name calling!  
How intelligent of him or those who support his reaction ! 
Fortunately Dr. Ben Carson isn't the kind of guy to back away from a statement !
If memory serves me right he never retracted his statement that "a muslim should not be president of the US " ( a statement I agree with by the way)
Something the media seemed to have resuscitated to try and prove some sort of anti Carson/trump point! |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Fair enough, I agree you didn't say it was acceptable.
But it's a meaningless argument saying 1300 starving people might choose slavery instead. They might also choose all manner of vile alternatives - it's a pointless argument.
Our heads work very differently...
I guess you believe democracy is always preferable to dictatorship. And I would further bet that most here would agree with you.
However I don't believe that.
I believe that a benign dictatorship (say like that of Bhutan until recently) is infinity more preferable to a malign democracy (say like the one in the USA where about a quarter of its population are denied medical care in the name of freedom to choose).
I suppose it is all about which way you choose to look at any issue, the sort of education you have and what personal experiences colour your views."
I kind of her your point.
Before slavery, much of American labour was made up of indentured labour. That was, pretty much, slavery. They signed their miserable lives away to work like dogs essentially in exchange for food and lodging and a small sum when they completed their time.
This was voluntary though.
I'm really not convinced that being forced into slavery, from even a miserable existence would be the same. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Slavery was horrible , but how come the arabs have never been made to compensate the Africans they enslaved ? "
.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade.
They got their arse kicked by Thomas Jefferson |
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"Fair enough, I agree you didn't say it was acceptable.
But it's a meaningless argument saying 1300 starving people might choose slavery instead. They might also choose all manner of vile alternatives - it's a pointless argument.
Our heads work very differently...
I guess you believe democracy is always preferable to dictatorship. And I would further bet that most here would agree with you.
However I don't believe that.
I believe that a benign dictatorship (say like that of Bhutan until recently) is infinity more preferable to a malign democracy (say like the one in the USA where about a quarter of its population are denied medical care in the name of freedom to choose).
I suppose it is all about which way you choose to look at any issue, the sort of education you have and what personal experiences colour your views."
With respect, that is a load of utter and complete tosh. Defending the indefensible...... |
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