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As predicted, Brexit already hitting Universities
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"Applications from EU students for places at UK universities have dropped by more than 7% according to latest figures, a committee of MPs investigating the impact of Brexit on higher education has been told. It is the first decrease in applications from EU students to study in the UK after almost a decade of unbroken growth and will inevitably be blamed on last year’s vote to leave the EU. There has also been a nearly 5% fall in the number of applications from UK students and a 0.26% drop in international students, the provost of one of the UK’s most prestigious universities has told MPs. The figures, which relate to the January deadline for applications to the university admissions clearing house Ucas, were disclosed during a hearing of the Commons education select committee. Professor Michael Arthur, who is president and provost of University College London (UCL), told the committee that applications at his institution had held up well because of the continuing lure of central London, but said there would be huge variations across the country. UCL has among the largest number of EU students of any university, with 5,000 making up 12.5% of the entire student body. Prior to the referendum Arthur warned that a vote for Brexit could cost universities tens of millions of pounds in lost fees from EU students choosing to study elsewhere. He told the committee: “If we look at what’s actually happening at the moment, we’ve just had the 15 January deadline on applications. I’ve got the data for the whole sector and the data for UCL in front of me. “If we look at UK students, home students, there’s a 4.97% decrease nationally. If you look at EU, there’s a 7.43% decrease, and overseas, other non-EU international students are down 0.26%.” He added: “The respective numbers for UCL are quite different. We are up in UK by 5%, we are down in EU by just 0.8%, and we are up in overseas by 6.9%. So you begin to see the large variations that there will be across the country.” Nicola Dandridge, chief executive of Universities UK, which is the umbrella organisation representing the higher education sector, echoed Arthur’s concerns about what she described as the “fragility” in EU numbers and warned that the UK’s competitors were seeking to take advantage. “We are concerned about EU numbers,” she told the committee. “Bear in mind this is coinciding with our competitor countries, particularly in the EU, seeing this as a huge advantage for them. They are redoubling their marketing efforts and see Brexit as posing a good opportunity for them to recruit internationally-mobile EU students.” Ucas said it could not comment on the figures, which are due to be published next week, but universities will be looking closely to see the price they may have to pay for the referendum vote to the leave the EU. EU students have been a major growth area for UK universities in recent years as the number of 18-year-olds in the UK diminishes. EU applications went up by 5.9% between 2015 and 2016, and 7.4% the year before. The proportion of UK students applying to university has held up well until now, although the cohort has become smaller – last year the number of UK applicants fell by 0.3%. This year’s more dramatic fall in UK applications could be linked in part to the scrapping of bursaries for nursing and midwifery courses, where students now have to apply for loans. University leaders addressing Tuesday’s committee urged the government to provide clarity and reassurance to both EU students who might be thinking of applying to the UK in the future, and EU academics working in Britain in a climate of growing anxiety. MPs were told that many EU academics felt unwelcome and were planning to leave the UK to pursue their careers and raise their families elsewhere. Sally Hunt, general secretary of the University and College Union (UCU), said that too often higher education policy was being made in the Home Office rather than the Department for Education, with disastrous consequences. she urged the prime minister to act swiftly to reassure the thousands of EU staff working in UK universities that they will be able to remain in the country. “We are not alone in raising concerns about the damage being caused by Brexit and the type of rhetoric being used by politicians on immigration. It is naive to believe that those comments do not make their way around the world or have any impact on how we are viewed abroad. “The prime minister should act now and give EU staff the reassurance that they will be able to stay in the UK after we leave the EU. As well as being the right thing to do, with three-quarters of EU academics saying they are thinking of quitting the UK following the Brexit result, it is in our strategic interests to do so.”" The EU staff will have to be patient and wait until article 50 is triggered. Teresa May said in her Brexit speech last week she would like EU citizens already living and working in the UK to be given assurance that they can stay but the EU must also give the same assurance to UK citizens already living and working in the EU. The EU has said they will not agree to it or enter into any negotiations until article 50 is triggered, so it is the EU and not the UK who is at fault for the current uncertainty. The EU could agree to this now if they wanted to and put an end to the uncertainty. Further more if less foreign students are going to UK universities then that frees up more spaces for UK students at those universities. Remainers always complain we have skills shortages in this country, well if we have more UK students going to universities that can only benefit our country in filling the high skilled, high tech jobs for the future instead of relying on getting more immigrants into the country to fill those jobs vacancies. | |||
"I'm curious to see some numbers from recruitment agencies, mainly from tech. I know a few who were focused on bringing talent from overseas. It's a whole new game now..." It was Labour and Gordon Brown who first said "British jobs for British workers" during their 2010 general election campaign, and the lefties never questioned it or called him racist. Yet if a Tory or someone like Nigel Farage says the same phrase then they are racist to the bone and the devil incarnate.  | |||
"I'm curious to see some numbers from recruitment agencies, mainly from tech. I know a few who were focused on bringing talent from overseas. It's a whole new game now... It was Labour and Gordon Brown who first said "British jobs for British workers" during their 2010 general election campaign, and the lefties never questioned it or called him racist. Yet if a Tory or someone like Nigel Farage says the same phrase then they are racist to the bone and the devil incarnate. "Racist or not, there just aren't enough people in the UK to satisfy the needs of the growing tech industry. | |||
"I'm curious to see some numbers from recruitment agencies, mainly from tech. I know a few who were focused on bringing talent from overseas. It's a whole new game now... It was Labour and Gordon Brown who first said "British jobs for British workers" during their 2010 general election campaign, and the lefties never questioned it or called him racist. Yet if a Tory or someone like Nigel Farage says the same phrase then they are racist to the bone and the devil incarnate.
Racist or not, there just aren't enough people in the UK to satisfy the needs of the growing tech industry. "That's why I made the point in an earlier post, we need less foreign students at UK universities and more UK students at UK universities to fill the tech industry jobs of the future instead of relying on immigration to fill those skills gaps. | |||
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"I'm curious to see some numbers from recruitment agencies, mainly from tech. I know a few who were focused on bringing talent from overseas. It's a whole new game now... It was Labour and Gordon Brown who first said "British jobs for British workers" during their 2010 general election campaign, and the lefties never questioned it or called him racist. Yet if a Tory or someone like Nigel Farage says the same phrase then they are racist to the bone and the devil incarnate.
Racist or not, there just aren't enough people in the UK to satisfy the needs of the growing tech industry.
That's why I made the point in an earlier post, we need less foreign students at UK universities and more UK students at UK universities to fill the tech industry jobs of the future instead of relying on immigration to fill those skills gaps. "I think you're approaching it the wrong way. We should first make the UK universities better and more affordable so that the British can compete better for highly specialized jobs. Relying on immigration is not healthy, but it's necessary to maintain the growth of the UK industries. | |||
"This is about Universities, and it is about attracting the brightest and the best from around the world. Our Universities, like our Science is crucial to our economy of the future and we are one of the worlds leaders BECAUSE of our EU membership. Scientists and Universities are united and unequivocal about it, not being full members of the EU with its free movement and shared research, projects and funding will be disastrous. This was barely even on the Brexiters radar throughout the campign or since when the so called plan was being put together. If there is one thing that says Brexiters are arseholes to me, it is this. It was (and is) all about immigrants, who are actually good for the economy. Then it was supposedly about the sovereignty of Parliament and restoring the pre-eminence of our Courts. The economy barely featured. Science and Universities not even considered. " The vote Leave campaign clearly stated during the referendum that they would want the same level of science and university funding to continue after we leave the EU. The EU money paid to uk science and universities in subsidies is UK taxpayers money anyway. We pay that money to the EU then the EU gives it back to us and tells us how to spend it. Vote Leave said let's cut out the EU middle man and just have our own government pay that money to science and universities for direct payments which is a much more efficient way to do things and is what the government and Teresa May intends to do after we have left the EU. If you didn't know this it is becoming increasingly clear to me that you never actually bothered to read any of the vote leave campaign material or listen to statements the government have made on this subject since the referendum last June. Many of the leading figures of the Leave campaign have said we may chose to continue to pay into selected EU schemes we want to remain involved with such as Erasmus and Horizon 2020. | |||
"Centaur wants a second rate science and university sector." Never said that at all, the UK can still have a first class science and university sector outside of the EU. | |||
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" The vote Leave campaign clearly stated during the referendum that they would want the same level of science and university funding to continue after we leave the EU. The EU money paid to uk science and universities in subsidies is UK taxpayers money anyway. We pay that money to the EU then the EU gives it back to us and tells us how to spend it. Vote Leave said let's cut out the EU middle man and just have our own government pay that money to science and universities for direct payments which is a much more efficient way to do things and is what the government and Teresa May intends to do after we have left the EU. If you didn't know this it is becoming increasingly clear to me that you never actually bothered to read any of the vote leave campaign material or listen to statements the government have made on this subject since the referendum last June. Many of the leading figures of the Leave campaign have said we may chose to continue to pay into selected EU schemes we want to remain involved with such as Erasmus and Horizon 2020. " The same people who also said we 'could' chose to put £350m a week into the NHS and the very next day after the referendum then said they wouldn't. It's bullshit. We know they won't. It wasn't a concern then and it isn't a concern now. It's get the foreign speakers out and tax cuts to the rich that is it. | |||
"This is about Universities, and it is about attracting the brightest and the best from around the world. Our Universities, like our Science is crucial to our economy of the future and we are one of the worlds leaders BECAUSE of our EU membership. Scientists and Universities are united and unequivocal about it, not being full members of the EU with its free movement and shared research, projects and funding will be disastrous. This was barely even on the Brexiters radar throughout the campign or since when the so called plan was being put together. If there is one thing that says Brexiters are arseholes to me, it is this. It was (and is) all about immigrants, who are actually good for the economy. Then it was supposedly about the sovereignty of Parliament and restoring the pre-eminence of our Courts. The economy barely featured. Science and Universities not even considered. " And of course, before we joined the EU our universities were amongst the worst in the world. | |||
"UK universities are going to be hit hard by brexit. Foreign academics, both EU and otherwise, are looking to leave and student applications are dropping (as indicated in the OP). The dynamics of education funding make foreign students a desired necessity on university campuses. Everything is going to change now and I don't think it will benefit UK educational institutions or British students. I have a somewhat intimate knowledge of this field so it's something I have experience with. However, I don't think people who voted for brexit will really care. Nothing that's happening wasn't forecast before the vote - it's what the people wanted." Then you'll also know that English university graduates face the highest debts in the world, owing an average of £44,000 when they leave university! Clearly in many cases not a price worth paying! Smug politicians who have tried to milk the system are actually pricing us out of the market so undoubtedly many have decided work experience/apprenticeships are more valuable. And as I recall EU nationals get a university education in Sweden for free while post graduate law degrees in Maastricht (delivered in English) are about a third of the price here! | |||
"Further more if less foreign students are going to UK universities then that frees up more spaces for UK students at those universities. Remainers always complain we have skills shortages in this country, well if we have more UK students going to universities that can only benefit our country in filling the high skilled, high tech jobs for the future instead of relying on getting more immigrants into the country to fill those jobs vacancies. " Bullshit. You think that more UK students are not going to university because they are 'full'? Rubbish. One of the reasons universities are so keen to get foreign students in is that they get more money out of them. Which in turn contributes more towards what UK students get as well. And the point of EU collaboration in research is not just about money. It is about collaboration freely with other smart people. If the finance/legal side is easier then the collaborations are easier. -Matt | |||
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"Further more if less foreign students are going to UK universities then that frees up more spaces for UK students at those universities. Remainers always complain we have skills shortages in this country, well if we have more UK students going to universities that can only benefit our country in filling the high skilled, high tech jobs for the future instead of relying on getting more immigrants into the country to fill those jobs vacancies. Bullshit. You think that more UK students are not going to university because they are 'full'? Rubbish. One of the reasons universities are so keen to get foreign students in is that they get more money out of them. Which in turn contributes more towards what UK students get as well. And the point of EU collaboration in research is not just about money. It is about collaboration freely with other smart people. If the finance/legal side is easier then the collaborations are easier. -Matt" This  | |||
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" And of course, before we joined the EU our universities were amongst the worst in the world." Not among the worst, but only about average. That's not my opinion, but that of experts. | |||
" The vote Leave campaign clearly stated during the referendum that they would want the same level of science and university funding to continue after we leave the EU. The EU money paid to uk science and universities in subsidies is UK taxpayers money anyway. We pay that money to the EU then the EU gives it back to us and tells us how to spend it. Vote Leave said let's cut out the EU middle man and just have our own government pay that money to science and universities for direct payments which is a much more efficient way to do things and is what the government and Teresa May intends to do after we have left the EU. If you didn't know this it is becoming increasingly clear to me that you never actually bothered to read any of the vote leave campaign material or listen to statements the government have made on this subject since the referendum last June. Many of the leading figures of the Leave campaign have said we may chose to continue to pay into selected EU schemes we want to remain involved with such as Erasmus and Horizon 2020. The same people who also said we 'could' chose to put £350m a week into the NHS and the very next day after the referendum then said they wouldn't. It's bullshit. We know they won't. It wasn't a concern then and it isn't a concern now. It's get the foreign speakers out and tax cuts to the rich that is it." I don't think anyone, rich or poor, will end up getting tax cuts as a result of BREXIT. There simply will not be the money available. What we can expect is further austerity and cuts to services and massive unemployment. | |||
"Further more if less foreign students are going to UK universities then that frees up more spaces for UK students at those universities. Remainers always complain we have skills shortages in this country, well if we have more UK students going to universities that can only benefit our country in filling the high skilled, high tech jobs for the future instead of relying on getting more immigrants into the country to fill those jobs vacancies. Bullshit. You think that more UK students are not going to university because they are 'full'? Rubbish. One of the reasons universities are so keen to get foreign students in is that they get more money out of them. Which in turn contributes more towards what UK students get as well. And the point of EU collaboration in research is not just about money. It is about collaboration freely with other smart people. If the finance/legal side is easier then the collaborations are easier. -Matt" 
You just saved me the trouble of writing it myself. | |||
" And of course, before we joined the EU our universities were amongst the worst in the world. Not among the worst, but only about average. That's not my opinion, but that of experts. " Remind me again of how EU unis are in the top 20 | |||
" And of course, before we joined the EU our universities were amongst the worst in the world. Not among the worst, but only about average. That's not my opinion, but that of experts. " And we know how good the "experts" are don't we.  | |||
" And of course, before we joined the EU our universities were amongst the worst in the world. Not among the worst, but only about average. That's not my opinion, but that of experts. And we know how good the "experts" are don't we. "About as reliable as Michael Fish. | |||
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"UK universities are going to be hit hard by brexit. Foreign academics, both EU and otherwise, are looking to leave and student applications are dropping (as indicated in the OP). The dynamics of education funding make foreign students a desired necessity on university campuses. Everything is going to change now and I don't think it will benefit UK educational institutions or British students. I have a somewhat intimate knowledge of this field so it's something I have experience with. However, I don't think people who voted for brexit will really care. Nothing that's happening wasn't forecast before the vote - it's what the people wanted. Then you'll also know that English university graduates face the highest debts in the world, owing an average of £44,000 when they leave university! Clearly in many cases not a price worth paying! Smug politicians who have tried to milk the system are actually pricing us out of the market so undoubtedly many have decided work experience/apprenticeships are more valuable. And as I recall EU nationals get a university education in Sweden for free while post graduate law degrees in Maastricht (delivered in English) are about a third of the price here! " The numbers for university debts are skewed. For example, you can graduate in the UK with a law degree from university while in America you'd have to go to four years of university with an extra 3 years of law school added on. Andd that's only one example. So simply comparing university debt is very misleading. Anyway, if you think the problems you're highlighting will be relieved with brexit then you will be disappointed. With the way things are headed, less foreign academics will want to work in the UK and less foreign students will want to learn here. Now, that isn't a problem for everyone, as I've already said, I don't believe that the people who voted for brexit see a problem with less foreigners in the university system. All I'm saying is that most academics have a problem with it for various reasons, including: the funding system is set up to rely heavily on tution from foreign students; academics with prestigious foreign grants are highly sought after; collaboration with EU and other foreign academics is desireable for the advancement of knowledge; etc. I don't understand why everyone feels the need to deny the problems that have come with brexit. I really don't get it. We should be accepting the problems, understanding them inside and out, and looking for ways to change the system to work with the new environment. I'll put it another way - If we are buildng a house and you choose one type of brick because it's strong in very hot environments and yet that brick turns out to be bad in wet weather conditions, it makes no sense to me to deny the brick's fault while it crumbles away in front of you. Instead you should be accepting the strength of the brick in some circumstances, while looking for ways to make the brick stronger when it rains. But no, let's just watch the brick disintegrate - that will show all those assholes who wanted the other type of brick!  | |||
"...All I'm saying is that most academics have a problem with it for various reasons, including: the funding system is set up to rely heavily on tution from foreign students; academics with prestigious foreign grants are highly sought after; collaboration with EU and other foreign academics is desireable for the advancement of knowledge; etc. I don't understand why everyone feels the need to deny the problems that have come with brexit. I really don't get it. We should be accepting the problems, understanding them inside and out, and looking for ways to change the system to work with the new environment. "No one's denying anything, especially as we're still in the EU! I'll be very surprised if you find much sympathy here or anywhere else regarding the funding system. Except of course from university vice-Chancellors who with salaries ranging from £272,432 to £462,000 p.a. might get off their fat arses and start to deal with the new reality...for the benefit of the people of Britain! | |||
"...All I'm saying is that most academics have a problem with it for various reasons, including: the funding system is set up to rely heavily on tution from foreign students; academics with prestigious foreign grants are highly sought after; collaboration with EU and other foreign academics is desireable for the advancement of knowledge; etc. I don't understand why everyone feels the need to deny the problems that have come with brexit. I really don't get it. We should be accepting the problems, understanding them inside and out, and looking for ways to change the system to work with the new environment.
No one's denying anything, especially as we're still in the EU!
I'll be very surprised if you find much sympathy here or anywhere else regarding the funding system. Except of course from university vice-Chancellors who with salaries ranging from £272,432 to £462,000 p.a. might get off their fat arses and start to deal with the new reality...for the benefit of the people of Britain! "Find sympathy? I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread. | |||
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"...I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread." Yeah, I read what you said. When you talked about 'assholes' who were you were you referring to...exactly? | |||
"...I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread. Yeah, I read what you said. When you talked about 'assholes' who were you were you referring to...exactly?" I was using it as a figure of speech. The people who wanted the brick that crumbled in wet weather (brexit voters) saying it about the people who are pointing out the crumbling brick to them (remain voters). Or we could substitute "assholes" for words I've actually heard used by people (both on this forum and elsewhere) such as "whiners" "whingers" "sore losers" "idiots" etc. Keep in mind that I couldn't vote in the referendum so I'm on neither side. I'm just a tad tired of seeing the people who voted for brexit reject the realities that came with their decision - or at least the bad ones, I've never seen them reject the good ones. | |||
"...I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread. Yeah, I read what you said. When you talked about 'assholes' who were you were you referring to...exactly? I was using it as a figure of speech. The people who wanted the brick that crumbled in wet weather (brexit voters) saying it about the people who are pointing out the crumbling brick to them (remain voters). Or we could substitute "assholes" for words I've actually heard used by people (both on this forum and elsewhere) such as "whiners" "whingers" "sore losers" "idiots" etc. Keep in mind that I couldn't vote in the referendum so I'm on neither side. I'm just a tad tired of seeing the people who voted for brexit reject the realities that came with their decision - or at least the bad ones, I've never seen them reject the good ones." what bad realities? You mean bad predictions? | |||
"...I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread. Yeah, I read what you said. When you talked about 'assholes' who were you were you referring to...exactly? I was using it as a figure of speech. The people who wanted the brick that crumbled in wet weather (brexit voters) saying it about the people who are pointing out the crumbling brick to them (remain voters). Or we could substitute "assholes" for words I've actually heard used by people (both on this forum and elsewhere) such as "whiners" "whingers" "sore losers" "idiots" etc. Keep in mind that I couldn't vote in the referendum so I'm on neither side. I'm just a tad tired of seeing the people who voted for brexit reject the realities that came with their decision - or at least the bad ones, I've never seen them reject the good ones. what bad realities? You mean bad predictions?" No, realities. I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. | |||
"... No, realities. I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. " Where are these academics going? | |||
"...I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread. Yeah, I read what you said. When you talked about 'assholes' who were you were you referring to...exactly? I was using it as a figure of speech. The people who wanted the brick that crumbled in wet weather (brexit voters) saying it about the people who are pointing out the crumbling brick to them (remain voters). Or we could substitute "assholes" for words I've actually heard used by people (both on this forum and elsewhere) such as "whiners" "whingers" "sore losers" "idiots" etc. Keep in mind that I couldn't vote in the referendum so I'm on neither side. I'm just a tad tired of seeing the people who voted for brexit reject the realities that came with their decision - or at least the bad ones, I've never seen them reject the good ones. what bad realities? You mean bad predictions? No, realities. I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. " well they won't be in EU grant proposals. Will they be in UK grant proposals? And the OP might have cited a decrease in foreign student enrollment but it's still an increase on 3 years ago isn't it? Was there a 'brexit' then? | |||
"... No, realities. I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. Where are these academics going?" Many of them are seeking jobs back in the EU. Ok, let's work with an example. You have a Spanish academic who is young and upcoming in his line of research. He has gotten 2 or 3 prestigious EU research grants and has built a team of academics. He gets hired by a UK university, he brings his team over and his grants. He hires more postdocs, often British, to work in his team now that he's in the UK. Now you have top talent working in the UK and bringing prestige and funding, along with research opportunities for young British researchers. Now the UK votes for brexit. This academic is in a precarious position now. He *may* have to pay a lot of money for a UK visa. Will he have to pay a fee as well? The thing is, he has no idea. He asks the university and they can't help since they don't know either. A new job cycle comes around and there are open positions in Spain, France, Germany. He applies. If he gets the job he just takes his prestige, grants, and postdoc opportunities with him to his next university. Because he is young and at the top of his field, chances are that finding work elsewhere won't be too difficult. It's happening. And it's UK students and research that loses when these people leave. | |||
"...I think you should read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I'm not looking for sympathy - recognising a fubding problem is not looking to sympathy. And yes, people are very much denying that brexit is a problem for universities (and various other things). I've read the thread. Yeah, I read what you said. When you talked about 'assholes' who were you were you referring to...exactly? I was using it as a figure of speech. The people who wanted the brick that crumbled in wet weather (brexit voters) saying it about the people who are pointing out the crumbling brick to them (remain voters). Or we could substitute "assholes" for words I've actually heard used by people (both on this forum and elsewhere) such as "whiners" "whingers" "sore losers" "idiots" etc. Keep in mind that I couldn't vote in the referendum so I'm on neither side. I'm just a tad tired of seeing the people who voted for brexit reject the realities that came with their decision - or at least the bad ones, I've never seen them reject the good ones. what bad realities? You mean bad predictions? No, realities. I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. well they won't be in EU grant proposals. Will they be in UK grant proposals? " I'm not sure if you're familiar with the structure of grant funding - either with UK specific funding or with EU funding. The UK gets a lot of funding from Horizon2020. Unless the government is going to make up the funding from the EU, which I doubt and I have yet to hear ANY plans about, there is going to be a lot of money that universities are left without that they previously had access to. And even more important than funding concerns, being excluded from horizon2020 will no doubt suppress international colaboration on grant proposals and limit knowledge exchange to the UK. Making it difficult for people to travel and work in various countries limits collaboration. I've worked with grant funding in the US, which is very introspective, and in the EU, which is collaborative - the difference is stark. "And the OP might have cited a decrease in foreign student enrollment but it's still an increase on 3 years ago isn't it? Was there a 'brexit' then?" Well, I believe talk of a referendum was indeed around 3 years ago. I don't know what effect that had on enrollment. What I know is that enrollment is down this year by quite a bit - and that's only with the prospect of brexit. We'll see what happens in future years, but this year's enrollment numbers are a signal, and the signal is grim. | |||
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"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??!" You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that" l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is." .. | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is." You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many......" and do you think that 'foreigners' really want to do this and that they are harder workers? | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many......" ..so what is the hourly rate for fruit picking.? | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... and do you think that 'foreigners' really want to do this and that they are harder workers?" They are hungrier......they also haven't been spoilt in their native countries. The 'safety net' of unemployment benefit in this country has become more of a lifestyle choice for many, there is also a fast growing untaxable black economy in this country that is spiralling out of control, which sees many Workshy Brits signing on and supplementing their JSA and ESA payments with incomes from eBay, Buy and Sell Facebook sites and boot sales. | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many........so what is the hourly rate for fruit picking.?" generally it's the NLW | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many......" ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them. | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many........so what is the hourly rate for fruit picking.? generally it's the NLW" Then the farmers are talking out of their arse or bullshitting about the pay. All the guy l see doing dirty jobs around here are British men. Like they always have been. | |||
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"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them." The problem is working in the warm cosy supermarket is very easy compared to picking veg in a wet/cold field | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many........so what is the hourly rate for fruit picking.? generally it's the NLW Then the farmers are talking out of their arse or bullshitting about the pay. All the guy l see doing dirty jobs around here are British men. Like they always have been." Possibly because you don't get many farms in Glasgow? | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them. The problem is working in the warm cosy supermarket is very easy compared to picking veg in a wet/cold field " I don't always agree with everything you say but absolutely spot on | |||
"Seasonal workers from within other EU countries who work British fields also benefit from not having the outgoings of native Brit field workers.....they often live in old mobile homes and caravans on the farms, benefitting from paying low if any rent, no council tax, no utility bills, they don't have transport costs......so it's not a level playing field, or even a level cabbage field." So essentially you've drifted from calling British people lazy to now claiming it's logistics and expense that prevents us. Eastern European are essentially taking advantage of settled British situations? | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them." The younger generation that we personally raised hasn't failed as they all Three attended university and all hold down very good jobs..... | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them. The problem is working in the warm cosy supermarket is very easy compared to picking veg in a wet/cold field " ls that a fact? You do know most of the year, the weather is decent and sometimes it's lovely? | |||
"Seasonal workers from within other EU countries who work British fields also benefit from not having the outgoings of native Brit field workers.....they often live in old mobile homes and caravans on the farms, benefitting from paying low if any rent, no council tax, no utility bills, they don't have transport costs......so it's not a level playing field, or even a level cabbage field. So essentially you've drifted from calling British people lazy to now claiming it's logistics and expense that prevents us. Eastern European are essentially taking advantage of settled British situations? " Essentially Brits are spoilt, many of the unemployed are workshy and spoilt, if lazy describes them then yes, lazy as well | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them. The younger generation that we personally raised hasn't failed as they all Three attended university and all hold down very good jobs....." Ahhhh so it's everyone else's fault. l see. The other British are raising their kids shittily. Glasgow doesn't have farms? Why do you think all of the people in Scotland live in the central belt? lt's the most fertile region of Scotland. l can stop taking anything you say now seriously. | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is." it wasn't just us Brits that won 2 world wars, in fact we didn't. Not on our own.. | |||
"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??! You won't get enough Brits doing it out of choice, the only way would be to force the workshy amongst our population to do it.... Good luck with that l can see why those people on benefits and the like don't feel bad about taking taxpayers money if this is how the average tax payer regards the native British. You are essentially a bigot : ascribing negative characteristics to a large group of people. lt's staggering how Brits won 2 world wars, conquered the globe, worked like hell and all of a sudden 2004, and we are suddenly lazy and feckless.....yet the whole world wants to come here.. Terrible place it is. You need to get out into the countryside a bit more and talk to a few arable farmers.....I know quite a few myself and they simply can't get enough 'Brits' to carry out field duties. if you have any doubts on this take a look at the NFU website and you can read for yourself the difficulties they find in finding native Brit staff. Over the last couple of decades Britain has become spoilt, and picking fruit and vegetables is deemed below many...... ls that so? lt amazing how ASDA is filled with Brits working for minimum wage and yet people won't work in a farmer's field? Are these farmers paying the minimum wage? Or are they ripping off Eastern Europeans by illegally paying them less? So l'm not buying it. And if the recent generation has declined (this has been said since forever) then your generation are responsible as you raised them. The problem is working in the warm cosy supermarket is very easy compared to picking veg in a wet/cold field ls that a fact? You do know most of the year, the weather is decent and sometimes it's lovely? " You can argue as much as you like......farmers can't get enough Brits to work in fields....that's a fact | |||
"Seasonal workers from within other EU countries who work British fields also benefit from not having the outgoings of native Brit field workers.....they often live in old mobile homes and caravans on the farms, benefitting from paying low if any rent, no council tax, no utility bills, they don't have transport costs......so it's not a level playing field, or even a level cabbage field. So essentially you've drifted from calling British people lazy to now claiming it's logistics and expense that prevents us. Eastern European are essentially taking advantage of settled British situations? Essentially Brits are spoilt, many of the unemployed are workshy and spoilt, if lazy describes them then yes, lazy as well" Now you've drifted back again. l'm not debating with you anymore. You're a troll. | |||
"Seasonal workers from within other EU countries who work British fields also benefit from not having the outgoings of native Brit field workers.....they often live in old mobile homes and caravans on the farms, benefitting from paying low if any rent, no council tax, no utility bills, they don't have transport costs......so it's not a level playing field, or even a level cabbage field. So essentially you've drifted from calling British people lazy to now claiming it's logistics and expense that prevents us. Eastern European are essentially taking advantage of settled British situations? " I know a few polish people who have come here as does K through her work,most will work long hours and do jobs that MANY brits wont, they share houses with other families to keep costs down,often they look after each other's kids while working shifts, some even hot bed, they tell me the cost of living in poland is higher than here and even professionals there will come here to do manual jobs and be better off, maybe in a couple of generations they will have the same attitude of SOME out of work/lazy brits | |||
"Seasonal workers from within other EU countries who work British fields also benefit from not having the outgoings of native Brit field workers.....they often live in old mobile homes and caravans on the farms, benefitting from paying low if any rent, no council tax, no utility bills, they don't have transport costs......so it's not a level playing field, or even a level cabbage field. So essentially you've drifted from calling British people lazy to now claiming it's logistics and expense that prevents us. Eastern European are essentially taking advantage of settled British situations? I know a few polish people who have come here as does K through her work,most will work long hours and do jobs that MANY brits wont, they share houses with other families to keep costs down,often they look after each other's kids while working shifts, some even hot bed, they tell me the cost of living in poland is higher than here and even professionals there will come here to do manual jobs and be better off, maybe in a couple of generations they will have the same attitude of SOME out of work/lazy brits " So now it's not because Brits are just lazy but because Poles are willing to live the way we did during the Victorian times with 7 to a room? The seething hate for the West and British people from other Westerners is sad. | |||
"Seasonal workers from within other EU countries who work British fields also benefit from not having the outgoings of native Brit field workers.....they often live in old mobile homes and caravans on the farms, benefitting from paying low if any rent, no council tax, no utility bills, they don't have transport costs......so it's not a level playing field, or even a level cabbage field. So essentially you've drifted from calling British people lazy to now claiming it's logistics and expense that prevents us. Eastern European are essentially taking advantage of settled British situations? I know a few polish people who have come here as does K through her work,most will work long hours and do jobs that MANY brits wont, they share houses with other families to keep costs down,often they look after each other's kids while working shifts, some even hot bed, they tell me the cost of living in poland is higher than here and even professionals there will come here to do manual jobs and be better off, maybe in a couple of generations they will have the same attitude of SOME out of work/lazy brits So now it's not because Brits are just lazy but because Poles are willing to live the way we did during the Victorian times with 7 to a room? The seething hate for the West and British people from other Westerners is sad. " There is no hate here from me to anyone, its a fact that SOME again SOME uk citizens want an easy life and many of the workers that come here want to earn a decent living by cutting costs, no one forces them to do it nd I for one wish them well but at the same time want us to make the workshy contribute to our society | |||
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"I'm curious to see some numbers from recruitment agencies, mainly from tech. I know a few who were focused on bringing talent from overseas. It's a whole new game now... It was Labour and Gordon Brown who first said "British jobs for British workers" during their 2010 general election campaign, and the lefties never questioned it or called him racist. Yet if a Tory or someone like Nigel Farage says the same phrase then they are racist to the bone and the devil incarnate.
Racist or not, there just aren't enough people in the UK to satisfy the needs of the growing tech industry.
That's why I made the point in an earlier post, we need less foreign students at UK universities and more UK students at UK universities to fill the tech industry jobs of the future instead of relying on immigration to fill those skills gaps. "But isn't this where your problem is? Blair tried to enforce this... you cannot fill UK universities with UK students, it just does not work, there are kids who are not cut out for university...you have vocational colleges, put money in them... not every UK student needs to go university.  | |||
"To be honest with you, I think it's a calamity..... just found this about the problems that universities are facing with regards to science: "Chemists fear that there could be as few as six university chemistry departments left in 10 years' time. Recent high profile closures of chemistry departments include that of King's College London's department which was credited as having developed crucial techniques which led to the discovery of DNA. There are currently between 35 and 40 departments but the Royal Society of Chemistry is predicting that at best 20 will survive and at worst only six (those at Durham, Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Bristol and Oxford) will remain. Last week Swansea announced that it was closing its department as part of an extensive "restructuring" programme. Queen Mary's department is also under review. Sir Harry Kroto, the president of the Royal Society, said he was "seriously worried" about the situation. The society has launched a campaign for the chemical sciences. Neville Reed, director of communications, said: "[The campaign will] try to get people to understand the importance of chemistry to the UK. [Chemistry] is a major employer and we need a firm basis to keep companies investing in this part of the world." Undergraduate applications have dropped by a quarter in five years. The Institute of Physics is also warning that closures of physics departments are leaving areas of the country without a physics department of any kind. Sir John Enderby, vice president of the Royal Society, told the Telegraph newspaper: "Not only is there less choice for students but parts of the country are without the expertise provided by physicists." Mind you this was from 2004....... " It is all to do with funding... Irony is foreign universities are benefiting from Britain's loss... the number of British scientists doing really research in the US, Canada, Australia, to mention but a few is huge... | |||
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"... I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. " I don't couldn't care less if academics are leaving or if 'foreign students' aren't coming. And I find this example of EU-grovelling dependency like countless others quite nauseating. | |||
"It's high time that kids should be permitted from the age of 15 to divert to vocational courses instead of or alongside the mainstream curriculum. Not every child is destined for university and it's time we recognised this fact." What do you think of the 11 plus exams? | |||
"... I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. I don't couldn't care less if academics are leaving or if 'foreign students' aren't coming. And I find this example of EU-grovelling dependency like countless others quite nauseating. " But then you clearly don't care if the UK falls down the league of educated and scientifically capable nations: The " Brain drains" in the 1950s and 1970s decimated the U.K. Scientific and technical base; Since 2008, a new Brain drain has been growing; comparable to the 1970s; Around 1 in 10 highly skilled professionals, particularly scientists and technologists are leaving the UK, permanently, going to the US, Australia, Canada, Germany and France, predominately. UK currently has the highest " Brain drain" numbers of any of the " first world" countries. In the past, that was countered slightly by immigration of scientists and technologists from India and the Far East; however, they too, are moving to the US and Australasia mainly, or to China, where funding for science research is multiplying. | |||
"... I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. I don't couldn't care less if academics are leaving or if 'foreign students' aren't coming. And I find this example of EU-grovelling dependency like countless others quite nauseating. " I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. | |||
"... I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. I don't couldn't care less if academics are leaving or if 'foreign students' aren't coming. And I find this example of EU-grovelling dependency like countless others quite nauseating. I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. " if you take a a look at the data on who is coming here, you will reaslise that the vast vast vast majority are not doctors or nurses. lf we selected the cream of Europe, l doubt any Brexit voter would mind. Less total migration, more good migration. | |||
"... I know academics who are leaving the UK for jobs elsewhere. I also know of grants that UK academics are not being included in because of the brexit vote (no one knows where the UK will stand so they are avoiding including UK academics in EU Grant proposals). The OP sites figures showing a decrease in foreign student enrollement. It's no longer prediction - its fact. I don't couldn't care less if academics are leaving or if 'foreign students' aren't coming. And I find this example of EU-grovelling dependency like countless others quite nauseating. I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. if you take a a look at the data on who is coming here, you will reaslise that the vast vast vast majority are not doctors or nurses. lf we selected the cream of Europe, l doubt any Brexit voter would mind. Less total migration, more good migration." You've missed the point of this entire discussion, then. | |||
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"Courtney, I hope you take some comfort that it was only 27% of the country voted brexit, on an anti immigrant driven agenda. So the vast majority of those eligible to vote were not incited to become anti immigrant even despite years of misleading and repetitive scaremongering stories for many years from popular newspapers owned by tax dodging non residents (ironically). Furthermore the young are more tolerant and they are the future. And they are starting to find their voice again. " And that less than 25% believed the stench of the remain bullshit. | |||
"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. " Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct. | |||
"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct." Bingo! Doesn't take long for those words to creep in to justify lack of reasoned argument.  | |||
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"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement." Many many years ago, I dealt with a company in Austria. On a visit to their HQ, plush offices with top of the range German cars parked outside, I asked where their manufacturing was. It was ten miles over the border in Slovenia, and was a old warehouse staffed by Slovenian workers on a fraction of Austrian wages. Low pay zones have been around for years, they are not new concepts. | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement." The counter argument starts with the statement that the EU is not run by corporations; In reality, the EU is , of all organisations and also federations, probably the one that is the least influenced by corporations; indeed, that is part of the point if it; it is, together, large enough to be able to stand up to the greed of global corporations. The reason for expansion of the EZu is simple; The larger the trading block, the better financial influence it has world wide; it has already seen off an attempt by the US to make a deal which would benefit only the US, because the EU can negotiate from a position of power, that individual countries cannot. Gurthermire, the objective of expanding , especially into eastern Europe is a long term project, it gradually brings their governance, their economics they laws into line with the advanced world. It also protects them from once again being subsumed into Russia/ Eurasia and being exploited. Thatvusxsksivsgy, eventually, Tufkey must join; and though it will take time, they will be forced to change behaviour in order to do so: Turkey is key, strategically, to east/west relationships; and must be encouraged. It will, unfortunately take 15-20 years; but if it is permanently excluded from the " West" then it will succumb to control from Eurasia. Luckily, yheseceas enough foresight to keep it included in NATO, do it has a lifeline. The EU must ( and wil) survive; The YS hate it, because they wish to trade individually with nations ( Trump's statements on US are nothing new, he is just articulating loudly, and more forcibly, what the US has been doing for years) Russia wants to destabilise Europe for similar , but slightly different reasons. It fears ( for historical reasons) powerful neighbours. Hence Putin's meddling in America to bring about the current conditions; and Outibs meddling and funding if disruptive elements within EU countries, to destabilise Europe. | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement." This doesn't address the issue of high skilled labor....which is the topic of the thread (universities - both the students and the academics). A failure to differentiate and make policies that keep talent while cutting immigration is something that the UK is going to have to deal with eventually. Or pay the price for. | |||
"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct. Bingo! Doesn't take long for those words to creep in to justify lack of reasoned argument. "I was thinking the same. | |||
"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct. Bingo! Doesn't take long for those words to creep in to justify lack of reasoned argument. "this.. | |||
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"We really beed to bring back city & guilds apprenticeships over 5 years Get back to training bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers,sheet metal workers,welders,engineers, the list goes on. There are far to many kids going to uni doing faux degrees and partying for 3 years " | |||
"We really beed to bring back city & guilds apprenticeships over 5 years Get back to training bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers,sheet metal workers,welders,engineers, the list goes on. " totally agree.. | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement. The counter argument starts with the statement that the EU is not run by corporations; In reality, the EU is , of all organisations and also federations, probably the one that is the least influenced by corporations; indeed, that is part of the point if it; it is, together, large enough to be able to stand up to the greed of global corporations. The reason for expansion of the EZu is simple; The larger the trading block, the better financial influence it has world wide; it has already seen off an attempt by the US to make a deal which would benefit only the US, because the EU can negotiate from a position of power, that individual countries cannot. Gurthermire, the objective of expanding , especially into eastern Europe is a long term project, it gradually brings their governance, their economics they laws into line with the advanced world. It also protects them from once again being subsumed into Russia/ Eurasia and being exploited. Thatvusxsksivsgy, eventually, Tufkey must join; and though it will take time, they will be forced to change behaviour in order to do so: Turkey is key, strategically, to east/west relationships; and must be encouraged. It will, unfortunately take 15-20 years; but if it is permanently excluded from the " West" then it will succumb to control from Eurasia. Luckily, yheseceas enough foresight to keep it included in NATO, do it has a lifeline. The EU must ( and wil) survive; The YS hate it, because they wish to trade individually with nations ( Trump's statements on US are nothing new, he is just articulating loudly, and more forcibly, what the US has been doing for years) Russia wants to destabilise Europe for similar , but slightly different reasons. It fears ( for historical reasons) powerful neighbours. Hence Putin's meddling in America to bring about the current conditions; and Outibs meddling and funding if disruptive elements within EU countries, to destabilise Europe." It will take Turkey 15 to 20 years to join the EU? What happened to the 'never in our lifetime' or the 'not before the year 3000' that David Cameron and other remainers were assuring us during the referendum campaign? | |||
"We really beed to bring back city & guilds apprenticeships over 5 years Get back to training bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers,sheet metal workers,welders,engineers, the list goes on. totally agree.. "You will need to frogmarch the yoof down to the apprenticeships .... | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement. The counter argument starts with the statement that the EU is not run by corporations; In reality, the EU is , of all organisations and also federations, probably the one that is the least influenced by corporations; indeed, that is part of the point if it; it is, together, large enough to be able to stand up to the greed of global corporations. The reason for expansion of the EZu is simple; The larger the trading block, the better financial influence it has world wide; it has already seen off an attempt by the US to make a deal which would benefit only the US, because the EU can negotiate from a position of power, that individual countries cannot. Gurthermire, the objective of expanding , especially into eastern Europe is a long term project, it gradually brings their governance, their economics they laws into line with the advanced world. It also protects them from once again being subsumed into Russia/ Eurasia and being exploited. Thatvusxsksivsgy, eventually, Tufkey must join; and though it will take time, they will be forced to change behaviour in order to do so: Turkey is key, strategically, to east/west relationships; and must be encouraged. It will, unfortunately take 15-20 years; but if it is permanently excluded from the " West" then it will succumb to control from Eurasia. Luckily, yheseceas enough foresight to keep it included in NATO, do it has a lifeline. The EU must ( and wil) survive; The YS hate it, because they wish to trade individually with nations ( Trump's statements on US are nothing new, he is just articulating loudly, and more forcibly, what the US has been doing for years) Russia wants to destabilise Europe for similar , but slightly different reasons. It fears ( for historical reasons) powerful neighbours. Hence Putin's meddling in America to bring about the current conditions; and Outibs meddling and funding if disruptive elements within EU countries, to destabilise Europe. It will take Turkey 15 to 20 years to join the EU? What happened to the 'never in our lifetime' or the 'not before the year 3000' that David Cameron and other remainers were assuring us during the referendum campaign?" It will take as long as it takes; but as a dyed in the wool Europhile and " rejoiner" (not " remainer"), I would set a target to achieve it within 20-30 years. Cameron was a twat to dance to the anti immigration tune, and to the anti- Europe tune, when he should have been aggressively promoting the EU. | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement. The counter argument starts with the statement that the EU is not run by corporations; In reality, the EU is , of all organisations and also federations, probably the one that is the least influenced by corporations; indeed, that is part of the point if it; it is, together, large enough to be able to stand up to the greed of global corporations. The reason for expansion of the EZu is simple; The larger the trading block, the better financial influence it has world wide; it has already seen off an attempt by the US to make a deal which would benefit only the US, because the EU can negotiate from a position of power, that individual countries cannot. Gurthermire, the objective of expanding , especially into eastern Europe is a long term project, it gradually brings their governance, their economics they laws into line with the advanced world. It also protects them from once again being subsumed into Russia/ Eurasia and being exploited. Thatvusxsksivsgy, eventually, Tufkey must join; and though it will take time, they will be forced to change behaviour in order to do so: Turkey is key, strategically, to east/west relationships; and must be encouraged. It will, unfortunately take 15-20 years; but if it is permanently excluded from the " West" then it will succumb to control from Eurasia. Luckily, yheseceas enough foresight to keep it included in NATO, do it has a lifeline. The EU must ( and wil) survive; The YS hate it, because they wish to trade individually with nations ( Trump's statements on US are nothing new, he is just articulating loudly, and more forcibly, what the US has been doing for years) Russia wants to destabilise Europe for similar , but slightly different reasons. It fears ( for historical reasons) powerful neighbours. Hence Putin's meddling in America to bring about the current conditions; and Outibs meddling and funding if disruptive elements within EU countries, to destabilise Europe. It will take Turkey 15 to 20 years to join the EU? What happened to the 'never in our lifetime' or the 'not before the year 3000' that David Cameron and other remainers were assuring us during the referendum campaign? It will take as long as it takes; but as a dyed in the wool Europhile and " rejoiner" (not " remainer"), I would set a target to achieve it within 20-30 years. Cameron was a twat to dance to the anti immigration tune, and to the anti- Europe tune, when he should have been aggressively promoting the EU." So does that mean Cameron, and other remain campaigners, lied to try to get votes? | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement. The counter argument starts with the statement that the EU is not run by corporations; In reality, the EU is , of all organisations and also federations, probably the one that is the least influenced by corporations; indeed, that is part of the point if it; it is, together, large enough to be able to stand up to the greed of global corporations. The reason for expansion of the EZu is simple; The larger the trading block, the better financial influence it has world wide; it has already seen off an attempt by the US to make a deal which would benefit only the US, because the EU can negotiate from a position of power, that individual countries cannot. Gurthermire, the objective of expanding , especially into eastern Europe is a long term project, it gradually brings their governance, their economics they laws into line with the advanced world. It also protects them from once again being subsumed into Russia/ Eurasia and being exploited. Thatvusxsksivsgy, eventually, Tufkey must join; and though it will take time, they will be forced to change behaviour in order to do so: Turkey is key, strategically, to east/west relationships; and must be encouraged. It will, unfortunately take 15-20 years; but if it is permanently excluded from the " West" then it will succumb to control from Eurasia. Luckily, yheseceas enough foresight to keep it included in NATO, do it has a lifeline. The EU must ( and wil) survive; The YS hate it, because they wish to trade individually with nations ( Trump's statements on US are nothing new, he is just articulating loudly, and more forcibly, what the US has been doing for years) Russia wants to destabilise Europe for similar , but slightly different reasons. It fears ( for historical reasons) powerful neighbours. Hence Putin's meddling in America to bring about the current conditions; and Outibs meddling and funding if disruptive elements within EU countries, to destabilise Europe. It will take Turkey 15 to 20 years to join the EU? What happened to the 'never in our lifetime' or the 'not before the year 3000' that David Cameron and other remainers were assuring us during the referendum campaign? It will take as long as it takes; but as a dyed in the wool Europhile and " rejoiner" (not " remainer"), I would set a target to achieve it within 20-30 years. Cameron was a twat to dance to the anti immigration tune, and to the anti- Europe tune, when he should have been aggressively promoting the EU. So does that mean Cameron, and other remain campaigners, lied to try to get votes? " Yes; and that Boris lied when he said that Turkey was on the Brink of joining, and that he would never let it happen( having not much earlier stated how keen he was for Turkey to join as soon as possible . But I was always suspicious that Cameron was deliberately sabotaging the remain vote. | |||
"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct. Bingo! Doesn't take long for those words to creep in to justify lack of reasoned argument.
I was thinking the same. "Oh, priceless 'analysis' from the academic contingent. Reminds me of the time Cameron and Osborne and the HM Treasury supplied us with quite a few 'facts' that their highly trained and educated researchers...made up...and were all proved to be...crap! But traitors and EU slaves will of course be praying that one day they will still be proved right...at the expense of the UK of course. | |||
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"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??!" They brits cant support itself, because the farmers take the immigrants over the brits because they are hard workers, this is the playstation generation. | |||
"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct. Bingo! Doesn't take long for those words to creep in to justify lack of reasoned argument.
I was thinking the same.
Oh, priceless 'analysis' from the academic contingent.
Reminds me of the time Cameron and Osborne and the HM Treasury supplied us with quite a few 'facts' that their highly trained and educated researchers...made up...and were all proved to be...crap!
But traitors and EU slaves will of course be praying that one day they will still be proved right...at the expense of the UK of course.
"
Traitors and EU slaves!
I'm not British, so I'm no traitor. I accept facts. If you're one ofthose who need to write facts as 'facts'then I can see why the discussion with you had been less than enlightening.
Like I said already, it's the UK that will have to deal with the repercussions of their own policies. You're only hurting yourselves. | |||
"... If you're one ofthose who need to write facts as 'facts'then I can see why the discussion with you had been less than enlightening..." And how you ever got a job in education will remain a complete mystery. | |||
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"How will we find people to pick our cabbages!! l mean in the 80-90s it used to be out of work British steel workers that would do it by the bus load. What will we do now!??!They brits cant support itself, because the farmers take the immigrants over the brits because they are hard workers, this is the playstation generation." playstations for youngsters Fabswingers for adults | |||
"... If you're one ofthose who need to write facts as 'facts'then I can see why the discussion with you had been less than enlightening... And how you ever got a job in education will remain a complete mystery. "
You're very good at ad hominem attacks and very poor at actually debating an issue. Doesn't seem you have much to contribute to the actual topic. | |||
"... If you're one ofthose who need to write facts as 'facts'then I can see why the discussion with you had been less than enlightening... And how you ever got a job in education will remain a complete mystery.
You're very good at ad hominem attacks and very poor at actually debating an issue. Doesn't seem you have much to contribute to the actual topic."This 'debate' as you call it is nothing other than the latest example of baseless post-Referendum hysteria from the EU-dependent. And tell me, what is the Latin translation for "The pot calling the kettle black"? | |||
"... If you're one ofthose who need to write facts as 'facts'then I can see why the discussion with you had been less than enlightening... And how you ever got a job in education will remain a complete mystery.
You're very good at ad hominem attacks and very poor at actually debating an issue. Doesn't seem you have much to contribute to the actual topic.
This 'debate' as you call it is nothing other than the latest example of baseless post-Referendum hysteria from the EU-dependent.
And tell me, what is the Latin translation for "The pot calling the kettle black"?
"Do you think it's a bad thing to know a bit of Latin? The anti-intellectualism is pretty obvious in your posts. I'm not ashamed of facts or knowledge. Anyway, your learned argumentation has completely convinced me. Let all those foreign academics and students and funding go back to Europe. No sweat off my back | |||
"... If you're one ofthose who need to write facts as 'facts'then I can see why the discussion with you had been less than enlightening... And how you ever got a job in education will remain a complete mystery.
You're very good at ad hominem attacks and very poor at actually debating an issue. Doesn't seem you have much to contribute to the actual topic.
This 'debate' as you call it is nothing other than the latest example of baseless post-Referendum hysteria from the EU-dependent.
And tell me, what is the Latin translation for "The pot calling the kettle black"?
"Do you want it in Ecclesiastical Latin or Classical Latin? Anyway, the Romans didn't use that phrase But Virgil and Horace are both recorded as using "Asinus asellum culpat" which has nearly the same meaning; | |||
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"... I said earlier up that I don't think the brexit voters cared that foreign talent was leaving UK universities. I understand that restricting the number of foreigners in the UK was part of why many people voted for brexit. That's completely up to them. I find the lack of facts exhibited by many posts in here nauseating. Me too. They're typically the preserve of the politically correct. Bingo! Doesn't take long for those words to creep in to justify lack of reasoned argument.
I was thinking the same.
Oh, priceless 'analysis' from the academic contingent.
Reminds me of the time Cameron and Osborne and the HM Treasury supplied us with quite a few 'facts' that their highly trained and educated researchers...made up...and were all proved to be...crap!
But traitors and EU slaves will of course be praying that one day they will still be proved right...at the expense of the UK of course.
"The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. | |||
"... The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. " As opposed to being members of that economic powerhouse the EU, now remind how their economies have done compared to us over the last 6/7 years  | |||
"... The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. As opposed to being members of that economic powerhouse the EU, now remind how their economies have done compared to us over the last 6/7 years "About the same as almost every other developed economy has done over the last 10 years, which is pretty badly. But more importantly is how well have we (the UK) done and the answer to that is we have consistently been one of the best performing economies in both the EU and the developed world not only over the last 10 years but over the last 20+ years. Let me ask you this simple question. How can making it harder for us to trade with our closest, richest and nearest trading partners ever possibly be considered patriotic because if being patriot involves voting to make friends, neighbours and relatives poorer then I want no part of that type of patriotism. | |||
"... The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. As opposed to being members of that economic powerhouse the EU, now remind how their economies have done compared to us over the last 6/7 years
About the same as almost every other developed economy has done over the last 10 years, which is pretty badly. But more importantly is how well have we (the UK) done and the answer to that is we have consistently been one of the best performing economies in both the EU and the developed world not only over the last 10 years but over the last 20+ years.
Let me ask you this simple question. How can making it harder for us to trade with our closest, richest and nearest trading partners ever possibly be considered patriotic because if being patriot involves voting to make friends, neighbours and relatives poorer then I want no part of that type of patriotism."good, because you have no idea what you're talking about | |||
"... The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. As opposed to being members of that economic powerhouse the EU, now remind how their economies have done compared to us over the last 6/7 years
About the same as almost every other developed economy has done over the last 10 years, which is pretty badly. But more importantly is how well have we (the UK) done and the answer to that is we have consistently been one of the best performing economies in both the EU and the developed world not only over the last 10 years but over the last 20+ years.
Let me ask you this simple question. How can making it harder for us to trade with our closest, richest and nearest trading partners ever possibly be considered patriotic because if being patriot involves voting to make friends, neighbours and relatives poorer then I want no part of that type of patriotism.
good, because you have no idea what you're talking about"That's rather ripe coming from you who never answers any questions anyone asks you. But that's what we've come to expect from you and other BREXIers, a lot of bluster but, when pushed and cornered, no answers. | |||
"How is this for an argument? Why did the EU want to expand into Eastern Europe? Simple. The corporations that run the EU wanted to plunder their natural resources, ie cheap labour. Now these countries readily joined up thinking that that things would improve for them and believed the lies they were told by the EU but all that has happened is the people are now paying western prices, particularly for things like electricity, while living on similar wages that they had before. It comes to something when a lot believe they were better off living under communism than they are under the EU. The only option a lot can see is to move west to try and improve their lot which they can to an extent but are being worked to the bone to maintain the corporations' profits and to pay the pensions of the westerners. A lot now realise this and it has created more anti EU feeling. Basically rather than wealth spreading east, poverty has spread west and the EU area is becoming a low pay zone which is what the corporations wanted all along. Fair argument? I just wish people would take their rose tinted glasses off when talking about the EU and free movement." Some truth and also rather a lot of tosh. You seem to be blaming the EU for some of the biggest downsides of capitalism. Corporations aren't just exploiting the lower paid parts of the EU. They do it all over the world. Or have you never heard of China or India? It's a difficult thing for the EU to legislate on as they are trying to balance several freedoms and not strangle too much. What they do is impose standards so that every country inside the EU and who wants to trade with it has to adopt those standards. This does raise standards in the third world. It's slow but it is still effective. | |||
"... The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. As opposed to being members of that economic powerhouse the EU, now remind how their economies have done compared to us over the last 6/7 years "In statistical terms, about the same. Whilst the U.K. Boasts about it's growing economy, against comparable European economies, there is a major difference The UK economy has no foundation. In order to find its expansion ( or rather to maintain it) UK has reduced its reserves; it also now has, effectively a minimum ( or less than minimum ) manufacturing and agricultural base; and also is not self sufficient for energy by a very barge deficit. It relies on the service and financial industries. It's economy stands on very thin ice. On the contrary, the EU, whilst it " performs" in numbers terms marginally less well, has a solid base of manufacturing, agriculture, industry and energy. That is why the EU economies are far better than the UK; And participating in the EU allows those assets to be spread more easily, and risks to be shared. Of course, the UK never really got those benefits fully, but then the UK never really participated in the EU properly anyway. In the post Trump world, with the impending trade chaos between US, China, India, the Pacific and Australasia, the EU is a good haven for stability. The UK is now dangerously exposed. In the EU you are living in a house with good foundations; in the UK, you take a gamble of a slight possibility of being marginally richer whilst living in a house built on quicksand. | |||
"... ...That is why the EU economies are far better than the UK; In the EU you are living in a house with good foundations; in the UK, you take a gamble of a slight possibility of being marginally richer whilst living in a house built on quicksand. " I'm not keen on the service industry slant of the British economy but the ECB has been printing E80bn in QE since October 2014. In December last year it reduced it to..."€60 billion until the end of December 2017, or beyond, if necessary..." The ECB doesn't need to prop up Germany or the UK...only ALL the other member states! | |||
"... Do you want it in Ecclesiastical Latin or Classical Latin? Anyway, the Romans didn't use that phrase But Virgil and Horace are both recorded as using "Asinus asellum culpat" which has nearly the same meaning;" You mentioned "Bingo" in an earlier post can I have that in Latin as well...needless to say the Ecclesiastical version? | |||
"... ...That is why the EU economies are far better than the UK; In the EU you are living in a house with good foundations; in the UK, you take a gamble of a slight possibility of being marginally richer whilst living in a house built on quicksand. I'm not keen on the service industry slant of the British economy but the ECB has been printing E80bn in QE since October 2014. In December last year it reduced it to..."€60 billion until the end of December 2017, or beyond, if necessary..." The ECB doesn't need to prop up Germany or the UK...only ALL the other member states! " As opposed to £70bn in UK In 2016 alone..... 
Oh and by the way; do try to find out what QE actually is..... | |||
"... Do you want it in Ecclesiastical Latin or Classical Latin? Anyway, the Romans didn't use that phrase But Virgil and Horace are both recorded as using "Asinus asellum culpat" which has nearly the same meaning; You mentioned "Bingo" in an earlier post can I have that in Latin as well...needless to say the Ecclesiastical version?" Not my job to educate the ignorant, But it's Euge. | |||
"... The real traitors are the people like you who hate your country, and everything it has stood for since WWII, so much that you've sold us all down the river for a bunch of jingoists slogans and pointless flag waving. How you have the bear faces nerve to call anyone a traitor while your hell bent on dragging this country and all its people towards being a bankrupt, insignificant, back alley of a country simply beggars believe. As opposed to being members of that economic powerhouse the EU, now remind how their economies have done compared to us over the last 6/7 years
In statistical terms, about the same.
Whilst the U.K. Boasts about it's growing economy, against comparable European economies, there is a major difference
The UK economy has no foundation. In order to find its expansion ( or rather to maintain it) UK has reduced its reserves; it also now has, effectively a minimum ( or less than minimum ) manufacturing and agricultural base; and also is not self sufficient for energy by a very barge deficit.
It relies on the service and financial industries.
It's economy stands on very thin ice.
On the contrary, the EU, whilst it " performs" in numbers terms marginally less well, has a solid base of manufacturing, agriculture, industry and energy.
That is why the EU economies are far better than the UK;
And participating in the EU allows those assets to be spread more easily, and risks to be shared.
Of course, the UK never really got those benefits fully, but then the UK never really participated in the EU properly anyway.
In the post Trump world, with the impending trade chaos between US, China, India, the Pacific and Australasia, the EU is a good haven for stability. The UK is now dangerously exposed.
In the EU you are living in a house with good foundations; in the UK, you take a gamble of a slight possibility of being marginally richer whilst living in a house built on quicksand.
"Would that be the house built on greek,italian, spanish and portugeuse foundations and the irish ones are too stable either let alone many of the poorer eastern countries that have been sent billions of eu money to lift their economies, I wonder if there are more greek style accounting practicesto be discovered | |||
"there's a load of fuckin useless degrees on offer in universities and every other place has a uni...so if a few close, no big deal" Of course it's no big deal if a few universities close. Who gives a shit about the jobs that'll disappear with them, or the impact on the local economies? Who really gives a toss about the income generated that will be lost? Anyone with half a brain is the answer | |||
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