FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Greek austerity

Greek austerity

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Just to clear something up from a previous thread on the ambassador that was full before I could reply. In 2015 the Greeks voted in a referendum to reject austerity, 61%-39%.

7 days later the leader Tsipras had to ignore the result and said 'it is our national duty to keep our people alive and in the Eurozone. We the government thought we could convince them that a country in this mess could take a completely different path but it wasn't possible. We couldn't overcome the bankers and Northern European elite who have absolute power on this continent'

so yes, Too hot, the Greek people wanted an end to austerity and the Euro and the sooner that happens the better

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Just to clear something up from a previous thread on the ambassador that was full before I could reply. In 2015 the Greeks voted in a referendum to reject austerity, 61%-39%.

so yes, Too hot, the Greek people wanted an end to austerity and the Euro and the sooner that happens the better"

Yassoo Nafti

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The golden dawn is gaining popularity there.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"The golden dawn is gaining popularity there."

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Just to clear something up from a previous thread on the ambassador that was full before I could reply. In 2015 the Greeks voted in a referendum to reject austerity, 61%-39%.

so yes, Too hot, the Greek people wanted an end to austerity and the Euro and the sooner that happens the better"

Jean Claude Juncker made a speech in the EU parliament after the Greek referendum where he said the Greek result was not legitimate. Once again Juncker shows his contempt for democracy.

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

Does anyone really believe that the Greeks will ever get out of this situation?

Will the EU have to write off this debt, presumably after Merkel wins her upcoming election?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Does anyone really believe that the Greeks will ever get out of this situation?

Will the EU have to write off this debt, presumably after Merkel wins her upcoming election?"
.

No they won't because it's owed to social general, ubs and Deutsch bank.

Greece has lost 35% of their GDP in 4 years which is worse than the Nazis could inflict between 40 and 44

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Does anyone really believe that the Greeks will ever get out of this situation?

Will the EU have to write off this debt, presumably after Merkel wins her upcoming election?.

No they won't because it's owed to social general, ubs and Deutsch bank.

Greece has lost 35% of their GDP in 4 years which is worse than the Nazis could inflict between 40 and 44

yeah but if you think that is tough, Next sales are down 0.4% over Xmas!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Does anyone really believe that the Greeks will ever get out of this situation?

Will the EU have to write off this debt, presumably after Merkel wins her upcoming election?.

No they won't because it's owed to social general, ubs and Deutsch bank.

Greece has lost 35% of their GDP in 4 years which is worse than the Nazis could inflict between 40 and 44

yeah but if you think that is tough, Next sales are down 0.4% over Xmas! "
..

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Some people seem unable to tell the difference between EU policies and national policies. Its so convenient to blame everything on the EU isn't it. We have had 6-7 years of austerity in this country. Nothing to do with the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Some people seem unable to tell the difference between EU policies and national policies. Its so convenient to blame everything on the EU isn't it. We have had 6-7 years of austerity in this country. Nothing to do with the EU."

true, so what? Who was talking about this country?

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?"

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU."

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

true, so what? Who was talking about this country?"

Well you are blaming austerity on the EU, we are members of the EU. Are you accepting that the UK deserves a 28th of the blame?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?"

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

true, so what? Who was talking about this country?

Well you are blaming austerity on the EU, we are members of the EU. Are you accepting that the UK deserves a 28th of the blame? "

no, I am blaming the EU for the fuck up that is the Eurozone

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them? "

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer"

Right, of course they have. Well here you are again blaming the EU. So the UK therefore deserves some of the blame too, right? Or are you just blaming the Euro using countries? So blaming Greece, Spain, Malta, Italy etc?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?"

What about them ?

Each nation choose to join the Euro, there wasn't some gun toting EU official forcing them.

I know you hate the EU with a passion but like many EU haters it totally clouds your judgement for a balanced cohesive debate.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?"

The EU is a membership organisation. The decisions are made by the members.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them ?

Each nation choose to join the Euro, there wasn't some gun toting EU official forcing them.

I know you hate the EU with a passion but like many EU haters it totally clouds your judgement for a balanced cohesive debate."

yes and how they were duped into it I've no idea. But now that the experiment has failed why not simply abandon the Euro and revert to seperate currencies? Or at least 2 levels of currency for the north and south? Or would that mean the EU admitting that its major policy has been a disaster?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?

The EU is a membership organisation. The decisions are made by the members. "

jeez

The members have chosen to impose austerity measures on themselves have they? This is nothing to do with the EU, Germany or the banks?

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Does anyone really believe that the Greeks will ever get out of this situation?

Will the EU have to write off this debt, presumably after Merkel wins her upcoming election?"

I wouldn't bet the farm on that one.

Merkel didn't win a majority at the last election and had to cobble together a coalition of her CDU/CSU alliance with the SPD (A bit like a Tory Labour coalition in the UK)

That coalition is, at least, strained and it is more than possible that it will collapse even before the election later this year. There is even talk of a split between her CDU and their Bavarian sister party CSU. Although I doubt that would happen.

Both AFD and Die Linke are making big gains not only in opinion polls but also in local and state elections. Nationally they are polling at around 15% and 12% respectively but in some states AFD are polling as high as 21%. Even the Greens are making gains while both major parties are suffering big setbacks.

Merkel will not win the election. At best she will either have to find coalition partners from the smaller parties, or go into another "Grand Coalition" with SPD.

Neither scenario is a certainty.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU."
.

Thats a well versed, well used line but it's just bollocks, it's exactly the narrative used to confuse the average Joe who doesn't know the difference between your house finances and national finances!.

The main difference being in your house you don't own a printing press, where as nation states do or should I say Greece did until they went on the folly of currency union with the Germans.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?

The EU is a membership organisation. The decisions are made by the members.

jeez

The members have chosen to impose austerity measures on themselves have they? This is nothing to do with the EU, Germany or the banks?"

Say jeez all you want. If its not the fault of the members such as Britain who aren't users of the Euro, and it's not fault of members such as Italy, Spain and Greece who do use the Euro, then there is no one left to blame! That's all 28 members.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?

The EU is a membership organisation. The decisions are made by the members.

jeez

The members have chosen to impose austerity measures on themselves have they? This is nothing to do with the EU, Germany or the banks?

Collectively know as the EU.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?

The EU is a membership organisation. The decisions are made by the members.

jeez

The members have chosen to impose austerity measures on themselves have they? This is nothing to do with the EU, Germany or the banks?

Collectively know as the EU."

But CandM have said its NOT the fault of non-Euro using members, and NOT the fault of Euro using members, therefore it NOT the fault of any of the 28 members therefore NOT the fault of the EU.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

True. The Greeks got themselves into their mess.

Then the EU compounded it by lending them more money with the knowledge that it would plunge the country into decades of harsh austerity.

Do you think that the Greek people feel resentful?

The EU stopped Greece from going bankrupt, gave them a lifeline in return they had to get their house in fucking order.

The people who suffer have only their own government to blame, not the EU.

what about Spain, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Cypress and France?

What about them? What has the EU done to them?

imposed harsh austerity measures! which aren't working! It is just making the few asset owners at the top richer while making the majority poorer

how can you support something you know so little about?

The EU is a membership organisation. The decisions are made by the members.

jeez

The members have chosen to impose austerity measures on themselves have they? This is nothing to do with the EU, Germany or the banks?

Collectively know as the EU.

But CandM have said its NOT the fault of non-Euro using members, and NOT the fault of Euro using members, therefore it NOT the fault of any of the 28 members therefore NOT the fault of the EU. "

Nothing is the fault of the EU. The EU IS the fault.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

Hang on a second.....

The EU acting undemocratically in favour of the banks?

Is thos at the same time as it breing a Stalinist plot?

Make up your mind, willya?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

It might be some of the Euro using members faults that they are in the shit because they shouldn't have adopted it in the first place but the austerity measures are down to the EU. And that is just making things worse. Powerful EU states want to enjoy the advantages of a single currency so they can sell their shit more easily without having to pay the bills of their partners if they get into debt or the shit hits the fan as in the banking crash. The European Central Bank is not allowed to bail out states because that would mean to switch the debt burden from one state to another, a politically untenable proposition. This limits any possible alternatives to austerity. By imposing austerity as the only policy available the EU reduce the scope for national governments intervention and assure the coherence of the union.

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Hang on a second.....

The EU acting undemocratically in favour of the banks?

Is thos at the same time as it breing a Stalinist plot?

Make up your mind, willya?

when was Stalin against banks?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"It might be some of the Euro using members faults that they are in the shit because they shouldn't have adopted it in the first place but the austerity measures are down to the EU. And that is just making things worse. Powerful EU states want to enjoy the advantages of a single currency so they can sell their shit more easily without having to pay the bills of their partners if they get into debt or the shit hits the fan as in the banking crash. The European Central Bank is not allowed to bail out states because that would mean to switch the debt burden from one state to another, a politically untenable proposition. This limits any possible alternatives to austerity. By imposing austerity as the only policy available the EU reduce the scope for national governments intervention and assure the coherence of the union.

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped"

So it's the fault of the member states then?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?"

which are collectively known as?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?"

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The golden dawn is gaining popularity there.

Sadly as are similar parties right across Europe thanks to EU policies. This is what happens when people feel they are being ignored. These movements are becoming too big now to simply be dismissed and the EU need to accept that they've got things wrong and change or it will be the end for it. And soon"
That is right, this happens when things like the eu crisis happens with the flooding of migrants and as well, those leaders speak what the people want to hear and can relate to their problems. I can see history repeat itself, as I see it, the crisis could of been diverted if we had a stronger leader than merkel as the laws have to change with the times, why should europe take them all? There are lots of spaces in siberia where they can build temporary camps.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states? "

what?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?"

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

"Hang on a second.....

The EU acting undemocratically in favour of the banks?

Is thos at the same time as it breing a Stalinist plot?

Make up your mind, willya?

when was Stalin against banks?"

Since about 1930, policy wise (that is banks(s) as opposed to Gosbank, the), prior to that, I believe he'd robbed at least one.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it? "

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Hang on a second.....

The EU acting undemocratically in favour of the banks?

Is thos at the same time as it breing a Stalinist plot?

Make up your mind, willya?

when was Stalin against banks?

Since about 1930, policy wise (that is banks(s) as opposed to Gosbank, the), prior to that, I believe he'd robbed at least one. "

well I suppose you could substitute the SSSR for the ECB

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

[Removed by poster at 05/01/17 17:56:25]

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU"

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country? "

none as far as I know but being outside the EMU I don't suppose it gets involved in those decisions. Or you could say it is guilty by association for being a part of the EU. Fortunately not for much longer though

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy? "

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?"

The members

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members"

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?"

We don't use the Euro

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?

We don't use the Euro"

But you said the members brought it out. Are we not a member?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?

We don't use the Euro

But you said the members brought it out. Are we not a member?"

We are members, some members use the Euro, we dont.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?

We don't use the Euro

But you said the members brought it out. Are we not a member?

We are members, some members use the Euro, we dont. "

so the Euro is nothing to do with the EU then?

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By *oorland2Couple over a year ago

Stoke

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By *oorland2Couple over a year ago

Stoke

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Deep breaths and relax

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?

We don't use the Euro

But you said the members brought it out. Are we not a member?

We are members, some members use the Euro, we dont.

so the Euro is nothing to do with the EU then?"

Its a currency used by some EU member states. I'm surprised you don't know this.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So basically, the political project is more important than the people and part of the reason the EU should be scrapped

So it's the fault of the member states then?

which are collectively known as?

Well are you saying its a member of ALL member states or SOME member states?

what?

If its the EU's fault, then that means its the fault of all members, the UK included. However if you are just blaming a few member states, then it's not the fault of the EU is it?

we'll say it's the fault of all member states then shall we? Uk included for not fighting hard enough against the idea of the Euro. So in other words the EU

Right..... So by what mechanism has the UK proposed or supported any austerity measures in another country?

So only countries that use the Euro are imposing austerity measures then? Countries like Greece, and Spain and Italy?

stop trying to be clever.

So who brought out the Euro? The EU or the members?

The members

so what mechanism did the UK use to help introduce the Euro and how did they support it?

We don't use the Euro

But you said the members brought it out. Are we not a member?

We are members, some members use the Euro, we dont.

so the Euro is nothing to do with the EU then?

Its a currency used by some EU member states. I'm surprised you don't know this. "

so where did it come from?

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new."

Just trying to explain that the EU is not some existential "Other". It's a membership organisation. The members make the decision. CandM want to blame everything on the EU, as if the member states are poor innocent victims, when they aren't. Without its members, there would be no EU.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new."

well said, that was getting a bit tedious

I just kmow that the way things are within the monitary union they seem to be stuck with austerity measures which is doing nobody any good, the UK included

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new.

so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new.

so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?"

They can't. If you think they can, then tell us through what mechanism. Through a vote in the European parliament for example? Does Germany have more MEPs than all the other countries combined?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

Not directly related to this thread but quite an interesting titbit.

Since 2008 the average in real terms (buying power) wage in Greece has fallen by 10% while the rest of the industrialised worlds average wage has risen by between 4 and 10%, except for the UK where our average wages have also fallen by 10%. Of course the other thing that the UK and Greece have in common is that the richer you are the less tax you pay.

I wonder if the link is more than happenstance? Could the financial problems of both countries be that they refuse to tax multinational corporations and the rich while squeezing the majority thus reducing economic activity? Also could the rise in ultra right wing nationalism in both countries be because the news media is owned by a small cabal of super rich individuals who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo at all cost and are corruptly using their media power to pump out anti reform propaganda in order to continue to leach off these two countries?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?"

As far as I know Germany did NOT impose austerity on Greece. Germany refused to continue to support Greece unless Greece reformed it's taxation regime and got it's finances in order.

Greece chose to cut public services and public jobs (just like the UK) rather than force multinationals and the super rich to pay their taxes!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?

As far as I know Germany did NOT impose austerity on Greece. Germany refused to continue to support Greece unless Greece reformed it's taxation regime and got it's finances in order.

Greece chose to cut public services and public jobs (just like the UK) rather than force multinationals and the super rich to pay their taxes!

Am in agreement with you. I was going to ask why are there austerity measures in the first place. 2008 was the point it all changed. Between the time they joined the euro and the recession in 2008 they had growth. When a global recession hit their growth disappeared. It seems it hit them hard and could not recover. The data seems to point at the recession as the blame.

Although I know a few Greeks who blame the EU, but are the EU at fault or becoming the scapegoat.

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

So is it in the EU's plan to have a member state with a 35% poverty rate and 23% unemployment (60% in youth unemployment)

If it is, then we shouldn't be a part of it.

If it isn't, why isn't the EU trying to find a credible solution?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"So is it in the EU's plan to have a member state with a 35% poverty rate and 23% unemployment (60% in youth unemployment)

If it is, then we shouldn't be a part of it.

If it isn't, why isn't the EU trying to find a credible solution?"

No that is down to the Greek government who refused to collect taxes from the rich and powerful but instead cut wages and jobs of those working for the state and demonised the poor.

A bit like the Tories cutting public jobs, social benefits and labelling the sick, disabled and unemployed workshy scroungers while allowing the likes of amazon and Google to transfer billions of £'s of profits overseas without paying a penny of tax. Of course the real irony is nearly every penny paid out in benefits is immediately spent on things like food clothing heat light and everyday living most of which attracts vat so the sick disabled and unemployed contribute more to this country than any of the tax dodging multinationals. Whats the betting the same is true in Greece?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So is it in the EU's plan to have a member state with a 35% poverty rate and 23% unemployment (60% in youth unemployment)

If it is, then we shouldn't be a part of it.

If it isn't, why isn't the EU trying to find a credible solution?

No that is down to the Greek government who refused to collect taxes from the rich and powerful but instead cut wages and jobs of those working for the state and demonised the poor.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?

As far as I know Germany did NOT impose austerity on Greece. Germany refused to continue to support Greece unless Greece reformed it's taxation regime and got it's finances in order.

Greece chose to cut public services and public jobs (just like the UK) rather than force multinationals and the super rich to pay their taxes!

ok Germany refused to support Greece. Support what? And what is reform its taxation regime etc if not insisting on austerity? Basically Germany (or the EU if you like) has taken away the Sovereignty of Greece. If a country cannot control its own monetary policy, what is it?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new.

so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?

They can't. If you think they can, then tell us through what mechanism. Through a vote in the European parliament for example? Does Germany have more MEPs than all the other countries combined? "

I don't think you understand what we're talking about

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Anyway, austerity is not the answer. So what is?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?

As far as I know Germany did NOT impose austerity on Greece. Germany refused to continue to support Greece unless Greece reformed it's taxation regime and got it's finances in order.

Greece chose to cut public services and public jobs (just like the UK) rather than force multinationals and the super rich to pay their taxes!

Although I know a few Greeks who blame the EU, but are the EU at fault or becoming the scapegoat. "

the fault. What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Instead of trying to catch each other out by trapping the other with a view to forum humiliation, why don't you both say what you do know and talk about it. You both might find out something new.

so why are Germany allowed to impose austerity measures on other members?

They can't. If you think they can, then tell us through what mechanism. Through a vote in the European parliament for example? Does Germany have more MEPs than all the other countries combined?

I don't think you understand what we're talking about"

You are saying that Germany can impose its will against 27 other member states. I'm telling you that is simply out and out wrong. If you think its right, you will be able to explain the mechanism by which Germany has more power.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?"

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

The rather sad conclusion reading the various threads directly and circumspectly about the EU is that some people think that the EU is some sort of mythical and unaccountable beast that is owned and controlled by no-one.

To think that we have had 40 years of Membership and most recently and still today masses of information about the subject, the ignorance about the subject is staggeringly amazing and quite frankly an insult to this great nation.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"The rather sad conclusion reading the various threads directly and circumspectly about the EU is that some people think that the EU is some sort of mythical and unaccountable beast that is owned and controlled by no-one.

Exactly the point I was making earlier in the thread.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

Those figures show the Italian economy has shrunk. You just proved the Euro has been bad for Italy.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

Those figures show the Italian economy has shrunk. You just proved the Euro has been bad for Italy. "

OK I'll bite...

Can you please explain to me how an economy that has 50% more fiscal activity when measured against a 3rd party currency can have shrunk?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

Those figures show the Italian economy has shrunk. You just proved the Euro has been bad for Italy.

OK I'll bite...

Can you please explain to me how an economy that has 50% more fiscal activity when measured against a 3rd party currency can have shrunk?"

CLCC just posted the figures. 1,814 is less than 1,200.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

Those figures show the Italian economy has shrunk. You just proved the Euro has been bad for Italy.

OK I'll bite...

Can you please explain to me how an economy that has 50% more fiscal activity when measured against a 3rd party currency can have shrunk?

CLCC just posted the figures. 1,814 is less than 1,200. "

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"CLCC just posted the figures. 1,814 is less than 1,200. "

You either need to step away from the keyboard until your sober or go back to school to learn basic arithmetic.

1814

-1200

=+614

I had not checked figures but I was expecting you to quote exchange rates or something similar to prove your point. But obviously it is simply that you cant add or subtract. Dont worry many Tory supporters have the same problem.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

CLCC just posted the figures. 1,814 is less than 1,200. "

Your logic / mathematics staggers me

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"So is it in the EU's plan to have a member state with a 35% poverty rate and 23% unemployment (60% in youth unemployment)

If it is, then we shouldn't be a part of it.

If it isn't, why isn't the EU trying to find a credible solution?

No that is down to the Greek government who refused to collect taxes from the rich and powerful but instead cut wages and jobs of those working for the state and demonised the poor.

That is just plain wrong.

Firstly ask yourself why these tax dodging multi nationals were able to skip paying up in the first place?

Could it be anything to do with the fact that they can trade anywhere in the EU but pay their taxes in Luxembourg?

As for the Greek government "demonising the poor" what tosh. Admittedly tax evasion in Greece was on an industrial scale and a "brown envelope" could solve almost anything.

However this is a country where paying your fare to the state owned Athens underground (paid for by the EU and for the U read YOU) involved an "honesty box"

A country with a state owned railway that took 80 million in ticket sales but had a 500 million wage bill with an average salary of over 60 grand

A country where pastry chef's hairdressers and radio announcers were regarded as dangerous occupations enabling them to retire at 50 on 95% pensions.

A country where "ghost workers" flourished. State employees who would just stop turning up for work but still get paid for years and then set up a business while all the time still claiming their wages.

So that was all the fault of the Greeks? Well yes, but er no not all.

While the screw the government culture had been alive and well (at both ends of the social spectrum) for donkeys years it was the Greeks adopting the Euro that fuelled the flames of their eventual demise.

The Greek economy was always going to hit the buffers but had they kept the Drachma it would have been a lot sooner and a damn site less painfully.

Once the Greeks had been (wrongly) allowed to join after they cooked the books, and the EU and ECB knew it but ignored it, they went on a spending spree of biblical proportions racking up colossal debt that was obviously going to destroy them.

The EU and ECB knew it but for nothing else other than politics and keeping the "European dream" alive they ignored it. Until it was too late.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

I am talking from 1999 and if you factor in inflation, exchange ratep etc it has not moved. But if you have looked for these figures on the internet you will probably already know that. It is not something I have made up

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

quite right. The vote to leave should have been at least 95%

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By *ammskiMan over a year ago

lytham st.annes

Quite right too !!!

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

Just to put my mind at rest on the unaccountable beast part; when were the EU accounts audited last?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Just to put my mind at rest on the unaccountable beast part; when were the EU accounts audited last?

Every

Single

Year

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

I meant an audit that was signed off satisfactorily.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?"

for goodness sake look at the facts

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts"

These are the facts!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts

These are the facts!!!!! "
.

All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

It's like when we mislead about Greek debt, yes they borrowed to much, that's very true, but not unusual, they've been borrowing to much for decades that's why the drachma was valued so lowly just like the lira was.... The question really was how and why did they borrow so much

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts

These are the facts!!!!! .

All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

I've provided evidence to refute a claim made that there has been little or no growth in the economy.

If you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong with evidence of your own.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

I did a little digging last year on this exact subject for another thread on the referendum while we were still in the lounge.

From memory I believe that the corrected figures for the € zone was over 2% growth per year with Italy around 1.5% growth against the US$. while the UK failed to manage 1% growth against the US$ and showed negative growth against the €.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

I did a little digging last year on this exact subject for another thread on the referendum while we were still in the lounge.

So why haven't we all fucked off to the Eurozone?

those figures are skewed

the truth is the Eurozone economy is smaller now than before the crash in March 2008. Even after the Great Depression of the 30's it only took 4-5 years for the European economies to get back to pre crash figures. Honestly, you people need to do a little more research. The Eurozone is fucked

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

I did a little digging last year on this exact subject for another thread on the referendum while we were still in the lounge.

So why haven't we all fucked off to the Eurozone?

those figures are skewed

So prove it. Give us the EVIDENCE!

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"I meant an audit that was signed off satisfactorily. "

Every year.

We have been through this many times before on this forum.

If you choose to read Beitbart, Daily Mail, Express etc and take the word of his Omnipotence Lord Nige The farage as gospel - you would of course ask the question that you did.

On the other hand you could fact check things before regurgitating and you would find that the accounts have been signed off every year and the right wing press identify "errors" in the accounts and thereby suggest that the accounts are wrong.

Try examing the NHS accounts (for example) and state that they are not signed off because of errors. It is a stupid and wholly incorrect assumption to state that because therwe are errors the accounts are not signed off.

Try the "Full Fact" website

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts

These are the facts!!!!! .

All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

I've provided evidence to refute a claim made that there has been little or no growth in the economy.

If you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong with evidence of your own. "
.

If it's just a case of facts then just narrow your criteria for growth from 2000-2017 to 2009-2017, the bulk of Italian growth came between 2002-2007 in the credit binge.

When looking at economics it's good to examine not just the facts but how it happened.

I wouldn't blame the EU perse for the eurozone problems but then to deny the eurozone has been an unmitigated disaster for southern Europe is just washing over problems, it's why we are where we are.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In 2001 the euro bought 90us cents in 2007 it bought 1.4 dollars...I think That's about a 65% gain?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts

These are the facts!!!!! .

All facts can be misleading.

For instance how much of that 65% growth is in the measuring.

I notice you have given the standard mode of dollar, however the euro has gone up against the dollar, so how much of the 65% is exchange rate growth?.

I've provided evidence to refute a claim made that there has been little or no growth in the economy.

If you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong with evidence of your own. .

If it's just a case of facts then just narrow your criteria for growth from 2000-2017 to 2009-2017, the bulk of Italian growth came between 2002-2007 in the credit binge.

When looking at economics it's good to examine not just the facts but how it happened.

I wouldn't blame the EU perse for the eurozone problems but then to deny the eurozone has been an unmitigated disaster for southern Europe is just washing over problems, it's why we are where we are."

Why change the dates? I am refuting what CandM said about Italy since joining the EU, they already changed the dates from when it actually started to be used, to when the Euro was first agreed to, and that made it even worse for them!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts

These are the facts!!!!! "

It is hard to debate when fact blindness is so rampant

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What about Italy? Their economy has not, or barely, grown since it joined the Eurozone. How come?

Italian economy 2002 (when the Euro was introduced) 1,200 bn USD

Italian economy 2016 1,814 bn USD

The Italian economy in 1999 was 1,100 bn USD. which is even less than the figure in 2002. So as you can see, it has grown, even though you said it hadn’t. (Source: Trading Economics)

That is a 65% increase.

Why have you factored in inflation when you say it hasn’t grown, or are you just stating your feelings?

for goodness sake look at the facts

These are the facts!!!!!

It is hard to debate when fact blindness is so rampant

"
.

That was my point before.... GDP is an idea for accounting whether you actually produced more, in reality it's just measuring how much your gross domestic product is worth in dollars, currency against currency then exchange rates should equal out... But they really don't when your in a currency union with other more successful countries like Germany and Holland...

So my question still stands, did Italy actually expand by 65% or did it's currency just make a 65% gain against the value of the currency it's being measured in, IE dollars?..

We've been giving pat a ribbing for saying the FTSE is reporting record profits by pointing out that the dollar just made large gains against the pound and most of that "extra" profit is exchange rate differences.

Does that not extend to Italian GDP measured in dollars??... I'm genuinely asking

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My next question would be if the Italian economy actually expanded by 65% in fifteen years, how the hell have 12% of its population ended up in poverty 22% in near poverty,11% unemployed and 30% of its youth unemployed?.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Or we could put it another way the Greeks have seen a 35% drop in its GDP measured in dollars at an exchange rate of 1 euro to 1.2 dollars.... Now let's imagine Greece runs its own euro, what do we think it's parity to the us dollar would be, still 1 to 1.2 ?.

Or something like the drachma which was around 250 to 1 in reverse.... How much GDP has Greece just lost in that scenario?...

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I won't post directly to websites but I would just suggest looking at 'why does Italy not grow' 'Market Watch' covers the subject, but probably the easiest to understand is on 'Battle of Ideas'

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By *anes HubbyCouple over a year ago

Babbacombe Torquay

The Greek middle and upper classes are renowned tax dodgers, the income tax and corporation tax take for Greece is pitifully low.....

The Black economies of many Southern European nations also place their national tax income in a terrible position, so many work 'invisibly' in tourism and agriculture it should be no surprise that these economies are historically troublesome.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"The Greek middle and upper classes are renowned tax dodgers, the income tax and corporation tax take for Greece is pitifully low.....

so why have a single currency? Or allow them to join a single currency?

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"The Greek middle and upper classes are renowned tax dodgers, the income tax and corporation tax take for Greece is pitifully low.....

And the socialist Greek governments in the past were more than happy to spend EU (YOUR) money buying the votes of the working class to stay in power.

What I quoted above was just a small sample of their corruption, and it was all done right under the noses of the EU and ECB.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Greek middle and upper classes are renowned tax dodgers, the income tax and corporation tax take for Greece is pitifully low.....

so why have a single currency? Or allow them to join a single currency?"
.

Because that was Germanies plan all along, by dragging in weak countries it drags it's currency weaker allowing it to export heavily, if you took Italy, Portugal, Spain,Greece and Ireland out of the euro it would be trading at at least twice it's value, that would mean BMWs would be very very expensive, I mean they always have been in the past BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Audi were never high volume producers because of their cost under the old mark.... However under the weak euro they've become the world leaders..... Japan had the exact same problem in the 80s the only difference being they couldn't or weren't in a position to manipulate the yen low to keep exports cheep.... So they moved production out of Japan into cheaper currencies.

Given the fact that Germany had massively benefited from having these weaker countries it's currency union, given the fact that these countries manageed to borrow shit loads more because they were in and given the fact that loads of that borrowed money went into buying German products... You'd have thought the least the Germans could do is help with the problem they've caused and benefited from.... But no, they instead instill austerity on them as a punishment which is dragging their country's to the abyss.

It's in nobodys interests to see the euro fall apart, it will be an unmitigated disaster

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm in the EU. I cannot afford a BMW. I cannot afford any car really. We're taxed heavily. So we fall to public transport which is really good.

But maybe the Dutch have increased their import quota of German cars since joining the euro.

But does the German government get any money from this?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm in the EU. I cannot afford a BMW. I cannot afford any car really. We're taxed heavily. So we fall to public transport which is really good.

But maybe the Dutch have increased their import quota of German cars since joining the euro.

But does the German government get any money from this? "
.

It's complicated but yes, they make a fortune of it, and that's in no way a blame thing, good luck to them they do really well for themselves.

But when your a net exporter and through that have a surplus budget that you manage well and spend correctly with.... Your hard to compete against!... You get spare money to invest in other countries utilities like eon and npower.

You install the right price controls on housing limiting inflationary pressures, it all works out good for you.

Not necessarily good for countries though, if your running a surplus, somebody has to run a deficit, that's just a fact of life

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I'm in the EU. I cannot afford a BMW. I cannot afford any car really. We're taxed heavily. So we fall to public transport which is really good.

But maybe the Dutch have increased their import quota of German cars since joining the euro.

But does the German government get any money from this? "

While the answer above is correct, to put it in its simplest form.

Exports = manufacturing = jobs = wages =taxation.

So yes the German government earn shit loads from it.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Some people seem to believe the only thing that the EU makes and the UK buys are BMWs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Some people seem to believe the only thing that the EU makes and the UK buys are BMWs

"
....I'm sure they don't...but you will just assume they do.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Some people seem to believe the only thing that the EU makes and the UK buys are BMWs

Not at all. You forgot Mercedes, Audi, VW, and Porsche. Not forgetting that the UK is the biggest export market in the world for Champagne and French wines in general.

I can see an awful lot of pissed off French farmers when we slap them with a reciprocal tariff. And you know how quiet and peace loving French farmers are LOL.

That is of course if you believe all the threats.

Anyway, nice to see you back. I hope you've cleaned up behind the sofa.

Maybe I will finally get a response on the other thread.

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