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Ex - EU Amabassador confirms it.
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"Is this the expert Ambassador who helped/advised Cameron in his reform negotiations with the EU? Got next to nothing so helped to lose the referendum for the people who are now saying how wonderful he is?"  | |||
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"Is this the expert Ambassador who helped/advised Cameron in his reform negotiations with the EU? Got next to nothing so helped to lose the referendum for the people who are now saying how wonderful he is?" Didn't Cameron get most of what he wanted in those negotiations? The bit about child support being sent home to children in another county got watered down from being stopped to being linked to cost of living in the country the child was in. But other than that I thought he got most of what he went for. In particular he got the exemption from 'an ever closer union'. -Matt | |||
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"Is this the expert Ambassador who helped/advised Cameron in his reform negotiations with the EU? Got next to nothing so helped to lose the referendum for the people who are now saying how wonderful he is?" . | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU?" Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt | |||
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"Like a pack of blood thirsty Hyenas waiting to pounce on any pickings you can find A bunch of fuckin sad twats searching desperately for any bad news so you can gloat and do your dance of victory And its always the same few and you know what I dont see anyone else on here coming to support you For such a serious subject your laughable My opinion like it or loathe it " Victory?! You call this victory?! This is a fucking catastrophe. I'm not sure why you take this so lightly. -Matt | |||
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"A catastrophe for people looking to stall/derail the Brexit process. Great news for the country and everyone else "I don't want to stall or derail the brexit process. I want it to go ahead as quickly and smoothly as possible and for us to get the best out of the situation we are now in. The process so far has caused enough damage. The resignation and admission that there is no plan by the senior person 'at the coalface' of the negotiations really doesn't inspire confidence that the 'trust us, it is all good' mantra of May is working out though. Why do you believe this is a great thing for our country? -Matt | |||
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"A catastrophe for people looking to stall/derail the Brexit process. Great news for the country and everyone else "It's Headline news on every news channel and newspaper. It is a fucking big deal. You have all said absolutely confidently that you have faith in May and her team that they have the situation in hand. Today that faith has been repaid in total humiliation. The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship has confirmed in his resignation speech today that despite the Brexit vote being seven months ago and the signing of A50 being just a couple of months away.... There is no plan There is no strategy There is no negotiating team It cannot be more humiliating. | |||
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he comes across as someone with a smacked arse who didn't want to negotiate with/upset his EU chums. The man is obviously not up to the job and should have left straight after the referendum. I can pretty much guarantee that apart from remainers the only people who are upset that he's gone are EU negotiators | |||
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" The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship has confirmed in his resignation speech today that despite ..." Er, no. The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis. I suspect that the Ambassador was sidelined due to his political inclinations. | |||
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"Top dog?
he comes across as someone with a smacked arse who didn't want to negotiate with/upset his EU chums. The man is obviously not up to the job and should have left straight after the referendum. I can pretty much guarantee that apart from remainers the only people who are upset that he's gone are EU negotiators"You are missing the point entirely. He has resigned. He is no longer going to be in that post. There is a vacancy that now needs filling. May has been assuring us that we have the capability to do these negotiations. The person who was in that role is now no longer. It doesn't matter what your personal views of him or his capabilities are. Lets just hope May can find a replacement promptly with the same level of experience as that which is leaving. -Matt | |||
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" The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship has confirmed in his resignation speech today that despite ... Er, no. The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis. I suspect that the Ambassador was sidelined due to his political inclinations." He quit because it's going to be a total cluster fuck and he wants nothing to do with it. He isn't the first and won't be the last. | |||
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"Top dog?
he comes across as someone with a smacked arse who didn't want to negotiate with/upset his EU chums. The man is obviously not up to the job and should have left straight after the referendum. I can pretty much guarantee that apart from remainers the only people who are upset that he's gone are EU negotiators"he served 4 prime ministers in his position so maybe he was fairly competent, maybe that was the best they were going to achieve then on our behalf? no doubt had the deal been all and more that we wanted he would still be in position and most of us (some who have become experts on his performance funnily enough) would never have heard of him.. but with that there would possibly still be displeasure amongst some.. its more evidence if it was needed that this is turning into a proper shambles.. | |||
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"Top dog?
he comes across as someone with a smacked arse who didn't want to negotiate with/upset his EU chums. The man is obviously not up to the job and should have left straight after the referendum. I can pretty much guarantee that apart from remainers the only people who are upset that he's gone are EU negotiators
You are missing the point entirely. He has resigned. He is no longer going to be in that post. There is a vacancy that now needs filling. May has been assuring us that we have the capability to do these negotiations. The person who was in that role is now no longer.
It doesn't matter what your personal views of him or his capabilities are. Lets just hope May can find a replacement promptly with the same level of experience as that which is leaving.
-Matt"level of experience? 3 years in the job? And regardless of my opinions of him, seeing as he was due to leave in October anyway it makes sense to go now | |||
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" The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship has confirmed in his resignation speech today that despite ... Er, no. The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis. I suspect that the Ambassador was sidelined due to his political inclinations." And Davis' most recent EU negotiating experience is what, a decade ago? Apart from that no-one else in the team has EU negotiating experience do they? We don't appoint civil servant and ambassadors for their political views, but for the competency and experience in getting the job done. Hey... maybe this is an opening for Farage? Seeing as he did so well in his tenure as MEP  ... hardly turning up. May wants someone who believes in Brexit...well he is the biggest believer of all. Well maybe... apart from wanting to fuck off over the pond when the going got rocky.
-Matt | |||
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"Reading the Brexiters responses is a bit like watching the Black Knight scene in the Holy Grail. " shh.. not allowed to mention that arterial bleeding is life threatening, better to go with the post truth version.. | |||
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"Top dog?
he comes across as someone with a smacked arse who didn't want to negotiate with/upset his EU chums. The man is obviously not up to the job and should have left straight after the referendum. I can pretty much guarantee that apart from remainers the only people who are upset that he's gone are EU negotiators
You are missing the point entirely. He has resigned. He is no longer going to be in that post. There is a vacancy that now needs filling. May has been assuring us that we have the capability to do these negotiations. The person who was in that role is now no longer.
It doesn't matter what your personal views of him or his capabilities are. Lets just hope May can find a replacement promptly with the same level of experience as that which is leaving.
-Matt
level of experience? 3 years in the job? And regardless of my opinions of him, seeing as he was due to leave in October anyway it makes sense to go now"Yes, 3 years of experience. 3 years of the most recent experience. As he stated he was due to leave later this year when his 4 years were 'up'. So I'm guessing it is a fixed term role. Looking at his predecessors, they have all mostly served 4 year terms it seems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Permanent_Representatives_of_the_United_Kingdom_to_the_European_Union The fact he decided to leave early is quite damning. -Matt | |||
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" We don't appoint civil servant and ambassadors for their political views, but for the competency and experience in getting the job done. " The goverment appoints ministers and ambassadors to advise and assist. If the government believes that the ambassador's convictions would colour that advice and assistance (and there are credible rumours that he was making noises) then a falling out is inevitable. It is certainly not within an ambassador's professional remit to make the sort of political statement that he has done. | |||
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"So, any way you look at this, for this guy to resign and go public has to be an issue. Surely this is blindingly obvious! Yet, somewhat (and sadly) predictably, none of the brexit lobby here show any concern whatsoever. The resposnses from 'yawn' (really, this is so trivial that you fall asleep over it?) to 'victory' (this in particular is worrying, it makes me wonder just what sort of Brexit people want since even a total rapid hard one needs some negotiation) show just where we stand. Oh dear!" not forgetting the classic one of 'fuck em lets just walk away now' then do deals with other nations on trade who wont mind or notice that we have just walked away without negotiating our exit from what is one of our largest and closest trading partners.. | |||
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"I like the idea David Davis is expert enough. On 26th May this year Mr Davis made a speech where he said “Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else,” He went on “Similar deals would be reached with other key EU nations. France would want to protect £3 billion of food and wine exports. Italy, its £1 billion fashion exports. Poland its £3 billion manufacturing exports.” Just think about that for a moment. Mr Davis appeared not to understand one of the most basic features of the European Union, namely that EU countries cannot negotiate individual Trade Deals. This is the level of expert Brexiters are comfortable with! It is worse than than fundamental lack of understanding of the EU though. Remember, this was less than a month before the EU Referendum and many months into a campaign in which one of the Brexiters most trumpeted gripes about the EU was that Britain could not negotiate it's own trade deals while it was part of the EU. So actually Mr Davis did not even understand his own position. Those of you disputing Sir Ivan Rogers assertion that there is muddled logic going on need look no further than that. The amazing thing is that it is still going on. " Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? Mr Rogers has clearly demonstrated his unsuitability for the job by breaching convention and revealing his political persuasion to the world. | |||
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" Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? " You did. 
'The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis.'
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" Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? You did.
'The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis.'
"Admittedly, that doesn't mean he has to be an expert. Or understand the basics of what he will be doing. Oh I feel better already. 
-Matt | |||
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" Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? You did.
'The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis.'
Admittedly, that doesn't mean he has to be an expert. Or understand the basics of what he will be doing.
Oh I feel better already.
-Matt"That was a worrying moment! We were on the verge of expecting the minister in charge of Brexit to know what he was on about. Dear gods, whatever next! | |||
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" Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? You did.
'The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis.'
"Where? I don't see any reference to the word "expert," do you? | |||
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" Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? You did.
'The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis.'
Where? I don't see any reference to the word "expert," do you?"Don't worry, panic over, we've cleared that one up! | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. " An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU? Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt" Hang on, so you say the EU ambassador was being kept in the dark by the government over our brexit plan, but other remainers on the thread are saying he resigned because we have no plan? Which is it then? Can't be both can it? If he's being kept in the dark then that suggests the government do have a plan which they have not let him know the details of. | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. " I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU? Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt Hang on, so you say the EU ambassador was being kept in the dark by the government over our brexit plan, but other remainers on the thread are saying he resigned because we have no plan? Which is it then? Can't be both can it? If he's being kept in the dark then that suggests the government do have a plan which they have not let him know the details of. " We do have a plan, according to the conservative MP for Berwick on BBC Radio Newcastle this morning. It goes something like this (I paraphrase, perhaps with bias): 1: Invoke Article 50 once we hear the Supreme Court judgement. 2: Er, that's it. But, even though I acknowledge my bias in that precis, it actually wasn't much more than that. So, the plan is, we trigger the process and then make it up as we go along. And we wonder why some of us are worried? I wonder why there are people on here who aren't worried! | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU? Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt Hang on, so you say the EU ambassador was being kept in the dark by the government over our brexit plan, but other remainers on the thread are saying he resigned because we have no plan? Which is it then? Can't be both can it? If he's being kept in the dark then that suggests the government do have a plan which they have not let him know the details of. " Surely you are splitting hairs now on the semantic difference between 'being kept in the dark' and 'there being no plan'. OK, I admit you could still be kept in the dark even if there was a plan. But there isn't a plan. So by default he is kept in the dark. Or if there *is* a plan, he has not seen it. So is kept in the dark. Either way, the point stands that you have someone who was tasked with the negotiations of the UK with the EU and yet they were not privvy to what was being considered by the government. -Matt | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU? Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt Hang on, so you say the EU ambassador was being kept in the dark by the government over our brexit plan, but other remainers on the thread are saying he resigned because we have no plan? Which is it then? Can't be both can it? If he's being kept in the dark then that suggests the government do have a plan which they have not let him know the details of. Surely you are splitting hairs now on the semantic difference between 'being kept in the dark' and 'there being no plan'. OK, I admit you could still be kept in the dark even if there was a plan. But there isn't a plan. So by default he is kept in the dark. Or if there *is* a plan, he has not seen it. So is kept in the dark. Either way, the point stands that you have someone who was tasked with the negotiations of the UK with the EU and yet they were not privvy to what was being considered by the government. -Matt" who says he was tasked? | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. " Ah, got you. The plan is positive thinking. A bit like a homeopathic approach to treating cancer then? | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. Ah, got you. The plan is positive thinking. A bit like a homeopathic approach to treating cancer then?" Now you're talking, why didn't we all think of this? So, the less substance there is in the plan, the more powerful the plan it is. And the most powerful plan of all is the one with zero content. Got it, now that makes sense! | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. Ah, got you. The plan is positive thinking. A bit like a homeopathic approach to treating cancer then? Now you're talking, why didn't we all think of this? So, the less substance there is in the plan, the more powerful the plan it is. And the most powerful plan of all is the one with zero content. Got it, now that makes sense!" Whats the EU plan? | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. Ah, got you. The plan is positive thinking. A bit like a homeopathic approach to treating cancer then? Now you're talking, why didn't we all think of this? So, the less substance there is in the plan, the more powerful the plan it is. And the most powerful plan of all is the one with zero content. Got it, now that makes sense! Whats the EU plan?" Er, what? What EU plan? The brexit plan, obviously, you know, the one that people talk about, the one that's (according to some it seems) fully there and being implemented. And according to others, non-existent! | |||
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"The eu don't AV a plan either it's new to us all but talking our own country down every day won't help will it the future can't be any worse than the recent past so let's see what happens " It can't be worse than the recent past? Really? Please elaborate... | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. Ah, got you. The plan is positive thinking. A bit like a homeopathic approach to treating cancer then? Now you're talking, why didn't we all think of this? So, the less substance there is in the plan, the more powerful the plan it is. And the most powerful plan of all is the one with zero content. Got it, now that makes sense! Whats the EU plan? Er, what? What EU plan? The brexit plan, obviously, you know, the one that people talk about, the one that's (according to some it seems) fully there and being implemented. And according to others, non-existent!" so is the EU plan there or non existant? | |||
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"Think it will be made up as they go along same as ours will be so it will give all the doom and gloomers something to moan about for a good few years yet lol" nah, the EU won't exist this time next year | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU? Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt Hang on, so you say the EU ambassador was being kept in the dark by the government over our brexit plan, but other remainers on the thread are saying he resigned because we have no plan? Which is it then? Can't be both can it? If he's being kept in the dark then that suggests the government do have a plan which they have not let him know the details of. Surely you are splitting hairs now on the semantic difference between 'being kept in the dark' and 'there being no plan'. OK, I admit you could still be kept in the dark even if there was a plan. But there isn't a plan. So by default he is kept in the dark. Or if there *is* a plan, he has not seen it. So is kept in the dark. Either way, the point stands that you have someone who was tasked with the negotiations of the UK with the EU and yet they were not privvy to what was being considered by the government. -Matt who says he was tasked? "What exactly do you see the role of "Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the European Union" then, if not representing and negotiating the affairs of the UK with the EU? -Matt | |||
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"So the job will be easy and just about sticking up for Britain? What are we not hearing cries for his Omnipotence Nige the Farage to take the role? It surely must be right up his street? Personally now I would like to see Prime Minister May groom Nigel Farage for this job to such a degree that the Press hound and harass him into finally admitting that he could not do the job even if it were offered and we can finally get the gobshite toad off our television screens offering sound byte solutions to complicated problems and stirring up the great unwashed in the process. Come on Mr Farage, do your duty for Queen and country. Stand up and be counted and prove that everything you have said in recent years reallydid lead us to this point. Your chance to make history or to be outed as nothing more than a troublesome shit stirrer." you are more of a reason why people voted to leave than Farage has ever been | |||
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"Why would we possibly want to keep a skilled negotiator with an intimate knowledge of and understanding of the EU? Because we've got plenty more negoti.... oh no, wait... we don't. The fact that our top negotiator with the EU was being kept in the dark by the government doesn't bode well for 'the plan'. -Matt Hang on, so you say the EU ambassador was being kept in the dark by the government over our brexit plan, but other remainers on the thread are saying he resigned because we have no plan? Which is it then? Can't be both can it? If he's being kept in the dark then that suggests the government do have a plan which they have not let him know the details of. We do have a plan, according to the conservative MP for Berwick on BBC Radio Newcastle this morning. It goes something like this (I paraphrase, perhaps with bias): 1: Invoke Article 50 once we hear the Supreme Court judgement. 2: Er, that's it. But, even though I acknowledge my bias in that precis, it actually wasn't much more than that. So, the plan is, we trigger the process and then make it up as we go along. And we wonder why some of us are worried? I wonder why there are people on here who aren't worried!" Ah, Ms Trevalyan. She would, of course, be a key party to the negotiations, in between her choral lessons. I am sure that she has May's ear. | |||
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"Ivan Rogers revealed no opinion until he resigned. He was a civil servant and have his advice in private. The opinion that he did reveal does not appear to be political. He did not favour any option but indicated a lack of leadership and ability to listen from those setting his objectives. An ambassador should not be seen to criticise his government even upon his resignation. I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. " What are you talking about? Do you have any idea how ridiculous your suggestion is? Would you seriously want 48% of the civil service to resign?  | |||
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" you are more of a reason why people voted to leave than Farage has ever been" .... Losing the argument and running out of ideas and answers? No problem, make it personal, it has become predictable. | |||
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"They also dont believe in human rights." Of course. No Brexiter could ever possibly have a belief in the value of human rights. It is just an impossible notion. All Brexiters want to hang and draw all those horrid foreigners and gay bisexual tranny folk. Come on, Shag, get a grip.  | |||
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"They also dont believe in human rights. Of course. No Brexiter could ever possibly have a belief in the value of human rights. It is just an impossible notion. All Brexiters want to hang and draw all those horrid foreigners and gay bisexual tranny folk. Come on, Shag, get a grip. "It is more the government that dont want it, not necessarily the people. | |||
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"I think this yet again shows the negative impact Leavers are willing to inflict upon the British constitution. They don't believe in parliamentary democracy. They don't believe in an independent judiciary. They don't believe in an independent monetary policy committee. They don't believe in civil servants giving advice to ministers. So many have allowed their visceral hatred of the EU to blind them to the damage they are willing to inflict upon this country." Absolutely correct but bizarrely I say - let them get on with it. Let's stop trying to stop them and instead encourage them on and on until the invitable happens and then we can all get back to living normally again. We all know they are deluded buit it is time to stop pointing it out and let lessons be learned. PS - Let's try to get the GBP down to parity with the USD by this time next year. Thanks. | |||
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"They also dont believe in human rights. Of course. No Brexiter could ever possibly have a belief in the value of human rights. It is just an impossible notion. All Brexiters want to hang and draw all those horrid foreigners and gay bisexual tranny folk. Come on, Shag, get a grip. "So you believe that the UK should remain under the jurisdiction of the ECHR? That the children of illegal immigrants do indeed deserve the right to an education? | |||
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"I think this yet again shows the negative impact Leavers are willing to inflict upon the British constitution. They don't believe in parliamentary democracy. They don't believe in an independent judiciary. They don't believe in an independent monetary policy committee. They don't believe in civil servants giving advice to ministers. So many have allowed their visceral hatred of the EU to blind them to the damage they are willing to inflict upon this country." And I think it shows your willingness to descend to silly generalisations. | |||
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"The eu don't AV a plan either it's new to us all but talking our own country down every day won't help will it the future can't be any worse than the recent past so let's see what happens " They might do. They have dinner without us now. They have consistently said no tariff free trade without free movement of people as per Norway or Switzerland (which would still honour the referendum result). They were much friendlier and more accommodating until our government started being rude to them... | |||
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"They also dont believe in human rights. Of course. No Brexiter could ever possibly have a belief in the value of human rights. It is just an impossible notion. All Brexiters want to hang and draw all those horrid foreigners and gay bisexual tranny folk. Come on, Shag, get a grip.
So you believe that the UK should remain under the jurisdiction of the ECHR?
That the children of illegal immigrants do indeed deserve the right to an education? "I do, yes. Is that shocking? | |||
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" Which ever side you are on...surely it is best to have someone (anyone) in place for the whole negotiations...rather than someone who will jump ship part way Through? " Your point about consistency is very valid, but I'd disagree that having a rude, incompetent yes man in place for the entire negotiation would be helpful. A negotiation like this requires diplomacy. The value being placed on "plain speaking" is just a much an excuse for rudeness. Waiters spit in your soup if you're rude to them so EU negotiators can probably find an equivalent. This doesn't alter his concern about there being no objectives being set for anyone who does want to take the job. | |||
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"That the children of illegal immigrants do indeed deserve the right to an education? I do, yes. Is that shocking?" Doesn't this illustrate the problem? You know why you voted to leave and it didn't include giving up on the European Charter On Human Rights. This was very much part of leaving for some people given though we are signatories independently of EU membership) | |||
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"yawn" | |||
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"That the children of illegal immigrants do indeed deserve the right to an education? I do, yes. Is that shocking? Doesn't this illustrate the problem? You know why you voted to leave and it didn't include giving up on the European Charter On Human Rights. This was very much part of leaving for some people given though we are signatories independently of EU membership)" It illustrates the problem of making silly generalisations about Brexiters and Remainers, yes. You can never know why a voter voted (unless you ask them). So let us debate the point of the thread. | |||
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" You can never know why a voter voted (unless you ask them). So let us debate the point of the thread." Ah ha, there we have it. The whole mess we are in now is because the Leave campaign did not set out a clear plan for going forward. They didn't because they wanted to pretend everyone could get what they wanted. If they had been honest about whether that meant in or out of the single market they would have lost, which is why they tried to pretend brexit meant all things to all men. Now we have a cabinet who can't come up with a plan because they don't actually know what people want. We need another referendum. | |||
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" You can never know why a voter voted (unless you ask them). So let us debate the point of the thread. Ah ha, there we have it. The whole mess we are in now is because the Leave campaign did not set out a clear plan for going forward. They didn't because they wanted to pretend everyone could get what they wanted. If they had been honest about whether that meant in or out of the single market they would have lost, which is why they tried to pretend brexit meant all things to all men. Now we have a cabinet who can't come up with a plan because they don't actually know what people want. We need another referendum." | |||
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" You can never know why a voter voted (unless you ask them). So let us debate the point of the thread. Ah ha, there we have it. The whole mess we are in now is because the Leave campaign did not set out a clear plan for going forward. They didn't because they wanted to pretend everyone could get what they wanted. If they had been honest about whether that meant in or out of the single market they would have lost, which is why they tried to pretend brexit meant all things to all men. Now we have a cabinet who can't come up with a plan because they don't actually know what people want. We need another referendum." Can I swap the word "Leave" for "Remain?" | |||
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" Mr Rogers has clearly demonstrated his unsuitability for the job by breaching convention and revealing his political persuasion to the world." sorry.... that is rubbish.... have to call it out! the problem is that i am guessing that almost every single brexiter that is saying this now would not have said this before 48hrs ago.... and if as everyone is saying he was "cameron's man"... they why didn't may get rid of him? since i work for the civil service i am annoyed that people accuse of political shit because we serve the person who is at the top of our dept whatever that dept is whoever party that person represents.... i've had 3 people from different dept at the top of ours and we served them all the same way! so how dare people always have a go at civil servants... | |||
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" Mr Rogers has clearly demonstrated his unsuitability for the job by breaching convention and revealing his political persuasion to the world. sorry.... that is rubbish.... have to call it out! the problem is that i am guessing that almost every single brexiter that is saying this now would not have said this before 48hrs ago.... and if as everyone is saying he was "cameron's man"... they why didn't may get rid of him? since i work for the civil service i am annoyed that people accuse of political shit because we serve the person who is at the top of our dept whatever that dept is whoever party that person represents.... i've had 3 people from different dept at the top of ours and we served them all the same way! so how dare people always have a go at civil servants... " That would be because he breached the rules. Would you, Fabio, publicly criticise the government that you serve? | |||
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"That would be because he breached the rules. Would you, Fabio, publicly criticise the government that you serve?" no i wouldn't.... and the keyword you used was "serve"... present text he does not serve anymore.... he sent his resignation letter.... it was not him that made that resignation letter public!! that i think you'll find came from no.10 and the other reason we know about this today is because he sent a leaving e-mail to the staff in his dept.... again he was not the one who made those details public!!! he just happens to be an easy scapegoat for telling the cold hard truth........ | |||
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"That would be because he breached the rules. Would you, Fabio, publicly criticise the government that you serve? no i wouldn't.... and the keyword you used was "serve"... present text he does not serve anymore.... he sent his resignation letter.... it was not him that made that resignation letter public!! that i think you'll find came from no.10 and the other reason we know about this today is because he sent a leaving e-mail to the staff in his dept.... again he was not the one who made those details public!!! he just happens to be an easy scapegoat for telling the cold hard truth........" OK, Fabio, if you were to resign, would you criticise the government that you had served? If, for example, you had been an ambassador? | |||
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" you are more of a reason why people voted to leave than Farage has ever been.... Losing the argument and running out of ideas and answers? No problem, make it personal, it has become predictable. "I have plenty of arguments, yours simply revolve around calling people deluded, racist, little Englanders, unwashed etc simply because they hold a different opinion to yourself and you now wish them to suffer. A lot of people, often through no fault of their own have obviously not done as well as yourself over recent years and are tired of being ignored by the political elite, derided and dismissed by the rich as irrelevant and best ignored and have finally found a voice which is just as valid and important as yours. Things just can not carry on as they are and throughout history when people have said enough, things need to change, things work out for the better in the long run. You need to get used to it | |||
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" OK, Fabio, if you were to resign, would you criticise the government that you had served? If, for example, you had been an ambassador?" if i thought strongly enough they were going in the wrong direction... if i thought my hands were tied and i couldn't do a job to the best of my ability because of certain factors then i almost think i'd be doing them a favour but letting them know on the way out.... remember he didn'r release it for public consumption... i think its a bit rich of some to complain.... because when Iain Duncan Smith resigned from being the sec of state for the DWP... he absolutely let rip on what he thought of some of the policies and how his hands were being tied.... funny that......... | |||
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"FFS, no you can't. Remain was the current position. It wasn't beholden on them to set out plans for change, though they tried. It was quite difficult to argue against something as indefinite as scotch mist though. It's as stupid as when you argue the EU should have a plan for Brexit. The EU's plan will be 1. Wait until Article 50 is actually triggered. No point wasting too much time on something which genuinely might not happen. 2. Wait to see how the UK would like to continue in it's relationship with the EU and see if the 27 countries are broadly ok with it. 3. If so then thrash out the details with the 500 experienced negotiators versus the 25, sorry 24 negotiators the UK has. 4. If the UK want access to the Single Market AND restriction on free movement of labour, tell them to fuck off and pick one or the other. There you go, it's taken me two minutes and I'm further on than Davis, Fox, Bojo and May have got in 6 months. " I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? | |||
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" OK, Fabio, if you were to resign, would you criticise the government that you had served? If, for example, you had been an ambassador? if i thought strongly enough they were going in the wrong direction... if i thought my hands were tied and i couldn't do a job to the best of my ability because of certain factors then i almost think i'd be doing them a favour but letting them know on the way out.... remember he didn'r release it for public consumption... i think its a bit rich of some to complain.... because when Iain Duncan Smith resigned from being the sec of state for the DWP... he absolutely let rip on what he thought of some of the policies and how his hands were being tied.... funny that........." Perhaps it might have been better for the revered Ambassador not to have written a letter of resignation sniping at the government then? An "I resign" would have better suited his role and duties. | |||
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" OK, Fabio, if you were to resign, would you criticise the government that you had served? If, for example, you had been an ambassador? if i thought strongly enough they were going in the wrong direction... if i thought my hands were tied and i couldn't do a job to the best of my ability because of certain factors then i almost think i'd be doing them a favour but letting them know on the way out.... remember he didn'r release it for public consumption... i think its a bit rich of some to complain.... because when Iain Duncan Smith resigned from being the sec of state for the DWP... he absolutely let rip on what he thought of some of the policies and how his hands were being tied.... funny that......... Perhaps it might have been better for the revered Ambassador not to have written a letter of resignation sniping at the government then? An "I resign" would have better suited his role and duties." As opposed to giving TV interviews. | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures?" Tell us what these EU austerity measures are and we'll let you know. | |||
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"So the job will be easy and just about sticking up for Britain? What are we not hearing cries for his Omnipotence Nige the Farage to take the role? It surely must be right up his street? Personally now I would like to see Prime Minister May groom Nigel Farage for this job to such a degree that the Press hound and harass him into finally admitting that he could not do the job even if it were offered and we can finally get the gobshite toad off our television screens offering sound byte solutions to complicated problems and stirring up the great unwashed in the process. Come on Mr Farage, do your duty for Queen and country. Stand up and be counted and prove that everything you have said in recent years reallydid lead us to this point. Your chance to make history or to be outed as nothing more than a troublesome shit stirrer. you are more of a reason why people voted to leave than Farage has ever been" .. | |||
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" you are more of a reason why people voted to leave than Farage has ever been.... Losing the argument and running out of ideas and answers? No problem, make it personal, it has become predictable.
I have plenty of arguments, yours simply revolve around calling people deluded, racist, little Englanders, unwashed etc simply because they hold a different opinion to yourself and you now wish them to suffer. A lot of people, often through no fault of their own have obviously not done as well as yourself over recent years and are tired of being ignored by the political elite, derided and dismissed by the rich as irrelevant and best ignored and have finally found a voice which is just as valid and important as yours. Things just can not carry on as they are and throughout history when people have said enough, things need to change, things work out for the better in the long run. You need to get used to it"Ah ok so people voted to leave the EU not for any reasons to do with the EU but because of their own people who they no longer like because said have the good sense to try to get on in life and not get bogged down blaming others for perceived problems that are no more than figments of their own imagination? That sounds fairly typical of a Brexiters reason to leave the EU. By the way, i prepared for the lunatics to start running the asylum. Did you? | |||
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"So the job will be easy and just about sticking up for Britain? What are we not hearing cries for his Omnipotence Nige the Farage to take the role? It surely must be right up his street? Personally now I would like to see Prime Minister May groom Nigel Farage for this job to such a degree that the Press hound and harass him into finally admitting that he could not do the job even if it were offered and we can finally get the gobshite toad off our television screens offering sound byte solutions to complicated problems and stirring up the great unwashed in the process. Come on Mr Farage, do your duty for Queen and country. Stand up and be counted and prove that everything you have said in recent years reallydid lead us to this point. Your chance to make history or to be outed as nothing more than a troublesome shit stirrer." You and other remainers really need to make your minds up. When it was suggested Nigel Farage be UK ambassador to the USA at the request of Donald Trump, remainers were up in arms about it and dead set against it. Now you are saying you want him to be a UK ambassador????? | |||
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" you are more of a reason why people voted to leave than Farage has ever been.... Losing the argument and running out of ideas and answers? No problem, make it personal, it has become predictable.
I have plenty of arguments, yours simply revolve around calling people deluded, racist, little Englanders, unwashed etc simply because they hold a different opinion to yourself and you now wish them to suffer. A lot of people, often through no fault of their own have obviously not done as well as yourself over recent years and are tired of being ignored by the political elite, derided and dismissed by the rich as irrelevant and best ignored and have finally found a voice which is just as valid and important as yours. Things just can not carry on as they are and throughout history when people have said enough, things need to change, things work out for the better in the long run. You need to get used to it
Ah ok so people voted to leave the EU not for any reasons to do with the EU but because of their own people who they no longer like because said have the good sense to try to get on in life and not get bogged down blaming others for perceived problems that are no more than figments of their own imagination? That sounds fairly typical of a Brexiters reason to leave the EU.
By the way, i prepared for the lunatics to start running the asylum. Did you?"I doubt it. Your post was about the esteemed ambassador and not about silly generalisations. It seems to have degraded into the usual rant though. | |||
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"Brexit is an embarrassing, bumbling,shambolic mess.So very Boris." ...so is the European union. | |||
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" You can never know why a voter voted (unless you ask them). So let us debate the point of the thread. Ah ha, there we have it. The whole mess we are in now is because the Leave campaign did not set out a clear plan for going forward. They didn't because they wanted to pretend everyone could get what they wanted. If they had been honest about whether that meant in or out of the single market they would have lost, which is why they tried to pretend brexit meant all things to all men. Now we have a cabinet who can't come up with a plan because they don't actually know what people want. We need another referendum." That's complete and utter nonsense. The vote Leave organisations during the referendum campaign broadly set out the objectives they would want implemented if Leave won the vote. They were.... 1. Take back control of our borders and reduce immigration (to do this we must leave the single market, as free movement of people is a condition of being in the EU single market). All the leading figures of vote leave said we should leave the single market before the vote on June 23rd (Micheal Gove, Boris Johnson, Andrea Leadsome, David Davis, Iain Duncan Smith and Liam Fox). Leading figures of the Remain campaign also said a vote to leave means leaving the single market (the Prime minister at the time David Cameron and the Chancellor of the exchequer at the time George Osborne). 2. Take back control of our money (which means we stop payment of EU contribution fees). 3. Be free to Make our own trade deals around the world (in order to do this we must leave the customs union). 4. Take back our sovereignty and control of our laws (to do this we must leave the European Court of justice). The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. | |||
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" You and other remainers really need to make your minds up. When it was suggested Nigel Farage be UK ambassador to the USA at the request of Donald Trump, remainers were up in arms about it and dead set against it. Now you are saying you want him to be a UK ambassador????? " I absolutely totally 100% and absolutely would want his Omnipotence to be grommed for this job. In the greater scheme of Brexit there can be no-one at all more deserving of this particular role. If everything that farage has said through his UKIP career is even half serious, then surely this step must be for him the pinnacle of his career and all roads have led him to this point. I would take back everything that I have ever said about him just to see hiom take on this role. But not perhaps for the same reasons you might want him to. | |||
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"Brexit is an embarrassing, bumbling,shambolic mess.So very Boris....so is the European union. " I agree.We are all up shit creek with these feckless fuckwits.Its like an episode of dads army. | |||
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" You and other remainers really need to make your minds up. When it was suggested Nigel Farage be UK ambassador to the USA at the request of Donald Trump, remainers were up in arms about it and dead set against it. Now you are saying you want him to be a UK ambassador????? I absolutely totally 100% and absolutely would want his Omnipotence to be grommed for this job. In the greater scheme of Brexit there can be no-one at all more deserving of this particular role. If everything that farage has said through his UKIP career is even half serious, then surely this step must be for him the pinnacle of his career and all roads have led him to this point. I would take back everything that I have ever said about him just to see hiom take on this role. But not perhaps for the same reasons you might want him to." Carry On Ranting? | |||
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"Brexit is an embarrassing, bumbling,shambolic mess.So very Boris....so is the European union. I agree.We are all up shit creek with these feckless fuckwits.Its like an episode of dads army." Ditto. | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. " I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. | |||
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"What a shame, I was hoping for Nigel Farage, Ant and Dec, the Chuckle Brothers or Katie Price for the role. Damnit - they have gone for a career civil servant. " Crazy, what were they thinking of? | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. " Ah, but you were better educated and informed than all those silly uneducated Brexiters? | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. Ah, but you were better educated and informed than all those silly uneducated Brexiters?" Er what? Why are you dragging this down in this way? Where have I said or implied that? Get a grip! Find fault with what I've said by all means, but reduce to snide remarks? Pathetic! | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. " Maybe I give the British public more credit than you. We were all told this would be the most important vote in our lifetime's, so I think the public took it seriously and took time to research and look at the material in the leaflets that were posted through every letterbox in every house in the UK. On your assumption that people vote such and such because they've always voted for such and such that can't really be applied to the referendum can it, because there were MP's (and MEP's) and ex MP's from mostly all parties on both sides of the debate. It was a binary choice between Leave or Remain, it was not like voting for a political party because some Labour supported Remain and some Labour supported Leave, some Conservatives supported Remain and some Conservatives supported Leave. | |||
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"Brexit is an embarrassing, bumbling,shambolic mess.So very Boris....so is the European union. I agree.We are all up shit creek with these feckless fuckwits.Its like an episode of dads army." ...the problem with politicians is they and the party they represent have their own agendas...but now the public are fighting back and they are running around like headless chickens at the thought of implementing something that does not fit their agendas.. It's mass confusion all round for them having to listen and do. | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. Maybe I give the British public more credit than you. We were all told this would be the most important vote in our lifetime's, so I think the public took it seriously and took time to research and look at the material in the leaflets that were posted through every letterbox in every house in the UK. On your assumption that people vote such and such because they've always voted for such and such that can't really be applied to the referendum can it, because there were MP's (and MEP's) and ex MP's from mostly all parties on both sides of the debate. It was a binary choice between Leave or Remain, it was not like voting for a political party because some Labour supported Remain and some Labour supported Leave, some Conservatives supported Remain and some Conservatives supported Leave. " Actually, I think you do have a point here and that there would be more readers of the material than in an election. But I wouldn't accept that (and for both sides) it was anywhere near total. But, for once, I'm not going to research it or argue the point for long . | |||
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" Who on this thread has suggested that Mr Davis is an expert? You did.
'The main man, the top dog at the helm of the ship governing Brexit is David Davis.'
"Fucking hell, you can't even keep up with your own Brexit logic within half a thread! | |||
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"Brexit is an embarrassing, bumbling,shambolic mess.So very Boris....so is the European union. I agree.We are all up shit creek with these feckless fuckwits.Its like an episode of dads army....the problem with politicians is they and the party they represent have their own agendas...but now the public are fighting back and they are running around like headless chickens at the thought of implementing something that does not fit their agendas.. It's mass confusion all round for them having to listen and do." As much as i loathe most politicians the alternative is worse. | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field." However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field. However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . " .. | |||
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"Is this the expert Ambassador who helped/advised Cameron in his reform negotiations with the EU? Got next to nothing so helped to lose the referendum for the people who are now saying how wonderful he is?" Yep, the very same. Apart from he didn't get next to nothing... I think you'll find it was fuck all, but regarded by remain campaigners as a triumph of negotiation. | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field. However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . " Achieved nothing? Really? Ok, so playing devils advocate here. His replacement has been announced, Sir Tim Barrow. What has he achieved in his role in Russia / Ukraine? More or less than Ivan Rogers? I'd hazard, that, like me, you have no idea. As like me, and I'd wager most of the country, you'd probably never heard of either of these two men until today. -Matt | |||
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"However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . " Do you really think that the views of a senior diplomat, at the top of his game, are not worthy of consideration? Really? | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. Ah, but you were better educated and informed than all those silly uneducated Brexiters? Er what? Why are you dragging this down in this way? Where have I said or implied that? Get a grip! Find fault with what I've said by all means, but reduce to snide remarks? Pathetic!" I have found fault. Most of that is that you seem to devalue and generalise Brexiters as stupid. They have a different political view from you. That might or might not be a less or more evolved political view from that which you hold. It does not make either side stupid. They both just have different objectives and views of the future. Back, perhaps, to the behaviour of the Ambassador? | |||
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"Sir Tim barrow replaces sir Ivan Rodgers!..... It's all just sirs sirs sirs. Wheel out Bruce Forsythe. . . What do you mean he's a sir as well... Where's my guillotine "I liked the idea of Katie Price. That would bamboozle them! Dame Katie Price lol -Matt | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. Ah, but you were better educated and informed than all those silly uneducated Brexiters? Er what? Why are you dragging this down in this way? Where have I said or implied that? Get a grip! Find fault with what I've said by all means, but reduce to snide remarks? Pathetic! I have found fault. Most of that is that you seem to devalue and generalise Brexiters as stupid. They have a different political view from you. That might or might not be a less or more evolved political view from that which you hold. It does not make either side stupid. They both just have different objectives and views of the future. Back, perhaps, to the behaviour of the Ambassador?" No, my comments relate equally to both sides. It's not about brexiters being stupid, it is about those with entrenched views not reading the material. | |||
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"The referendum material is all there on record in the history books and what the leading figures said during the referendum campaigns is also on public record. People knew what they were voting for it was all on the vote leave campaign material (I was a volunteer for vote leave so I know). There were endless televised debates and television and radio appearances where all these points were made repeatedly. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is just complete nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is complete rubbish actually. Accepting as read your comments about the material available for now. I think that in every vote we have substantial numbers of people voting on what they 'feel', without actually researching the issue. You know the sort of thing, "I'll vote xxxx because I've always voted xxxx" or "my family's xxxx through and through" and so on. (Insert part of choice here) I'm not about to evidence this one, I will claim this as opinion rather than verifiable fact. I think the referendum was exactly the same. Many, many, people I believe had made up their minds about our membership of the EU ages ago and nothing the literature said would change it. I also believe that huge numbers didn't, therefore, bother to read any of it. On top of that, there was, and is, a widespread belief that much of the literature (on both side perhaps) contained stuff that was, shall we say, liberal with the truth. For example, the fabled £350m to the NHS. This was never, ever, feasible, was it? Even if we didn't have to pay that after we'd left, we'd not be able to spend it on the NHS would we - we need to spend it on lots of things previously funded by the EU. So for you to claim people knew (your statement implies most if not all) because of the literature etc is, frankly, wildly optimistic at best. Ah, but you were better educated and informed than all those silly uneducated Brexiters? Er what? Why are you dragging this down in this way? Where have I said or implied that? Get a grip! Find fault with what I've said by all means, but reduce to snide remarks? Pathetic! I have found fault. Most of that is that you seem to devalue and generalise Brexiters as stupid. They have a different political view from you. That might or might not be a less or more evolved political view from that which you hold. It does not make either side stupid. They both just have different objectives and views of the future. Back, perhaps, to the behaviour of the Ambassador? No, my comments relate equally to both sides. It's not about brexiters being stupid, it is about those with entrenched views not reading the material. " Read the posts and decide who has entrenched views. If you are able. | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field. However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . " One career civil servant has just replaced another. Like the incoming one, the outgoing one is a lifelong civil servant who had served his country magnificently but he felt that the direction being asked by Politicians was lacking clarity because there was no strategy, no real team in place and no plan. He has humiliated PM May and her team and if I were a Brexiter, I would be outraged that it has just been revealed that 7 months down the road PM May is still without direction. Brexiters are easily placated though, all is in fact well because he is guilty of the charge of being a Europhile and now he has gone. Therefore rather than an embarrassment it is a victory and just how easily we have the scapegoat and just how easily the Brexit mind is fooled. Let's forget about the lack of plan, strategy and team and let's ignore the wasted 7 months... we found a Europhile and we got him sacked | |||
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"What a shame, I was hoping for Nigel Farage, Ant and Dec, the Chuckle Brothers or Katie Price for the role. Damnit - they have gone for a career civil servant. Crazy, what were they thinking of?" Don't worry, he'll only last as long as he keeps telling them what they want to hear!! | |||
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"Sir Tim barrow replaces sir Ivan Rodgers!..... It's all just sirs sirs sirs. Wheel out Bruce Forsythe. . . What do you mean he's a sir as well... Where's my guillotine
I liked the idea of Katie Price. That would bamboozle them! Dame Katie Price lol
-Matt". Shit not her, I'm going to the shed... Not to sharpen the blade but to dull it a little | |||
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"Read the posts and decide who has entrenched views. If you are able." I read lots of posts on here, this forum is fun! And frankly, both side's views are entrenched! But as for your 'if you are able' remark, are you really so pathetic that you can't argue without ad hominem attacks? How childish and sad! | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field. However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . One career civil servant has just replaced another. Like the incoming one, the outgoing one is a lifelong civil servant who had served his country magnificently but he felt that the direction being asked by Politicians was lacking clarity because there was no strategy, no real team in place and no plan. He has humiliated PM May and her team and if I were a Brexiter, I would be outraged that it has just been revealed that 7 months down the road PM May is still without direction. Brexiters are easily placated though, all is in fact well because he is guilty of the charge of being a Europhile and now he has gone. Therefore rather than an embarrassment it is a victory and just how easily we have the scapegoat and just how easily the Brexit mind is fooled. Let's forget about the lack of plan, strategy and team and let's ignore the wasted 7 months... we found a Europhile and we got him sacked "Instead of concentrating on "How easily the Brexit mind is fooled," why not concentrate on changing the word "Brexit" to "Remain?" Our esteemed ambassador had an issue or two. His reaction was exremely unprofessional. I would prefer to debate the individual rather than the all Brexiters/Remainers are clever/silly bevcause they all believe/don't believe xyz. | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? Tell us what these EU austerity measures are and we'll let you know." please tell me that is a joke? | |||
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"I do business deals all the time, I have never yet told the other side what I want before I start" Right, lets talk this out, lets say you want to buy a photocopier, you are saying that you don't speak to the supplier and say "I want to buy a photocopier?" seriously, how do you ever get anything if you dont tell them what you want? | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? Tell us what these EU austerity measures are and we'll let you know. please tell me that is a joke?" You can tell us, don't be shy. | |||
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"I do business deals all the time, I have never yet told the other side what I want before I start" How about your own side? Do you not consult with them first to establish what it is you are going to aim for with negotiations? Ie what 'success' looks like for your negotiations? As it stands May doesn't even appear to know what she is aiming to negotiate for. All we have are vague statements like 'the best for the UK'. Which considering those that voted Brexit don't even have a coherent idea of what they want either it is a bit of a farce. -Matt | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures?" That's a really good question. I should say from the off I certainly don't think the EU is all sweetness and light. Like Corbyn I probably give it 7/10. I am also not in favour of Socialism over Capitalism. Communism, great in theory doesn’t work in practice due to it’s lack of incentive. Also the state is less adept than the market in catering for people’s needs in many area’s. Capitalism at the other extreme also doesn’t work. Some things the market is unsuitable for addressing. Capitalism with a huge dollop of socialism is the only solution that can give us what we need. There is a flaw in your question though. I don't disagree that there is an ever widening gap between the rich and poor and I am very much against this. However you seem to lay the responsibility at the door of the EU. Inequality has grown throughout the OECD, not just the EU. So to blame the EU as an institution for a worldwide phenomenom is mistaken. Inequality is worse in the US and those adopting a more Anglo Saxon economic approach in fact. So your premise is flawed. The problem goes back 40 years to Thatcher and Reagan. If inequality exists, indeed is worse, elsewhere, then the cause cannot be laid at the door of the EU. Globalisation has exacerbated the problem and it is true that International Companies have driven it. These companies have grown so large they can bully or outmaneuver individual governments, even of countries with an economy as large as ours. Robin Cook used to complain the CEO of BAE Systems must have had a private key to the back door of Number 10 the amount of times he saw him sneaking in and out. Phillip Green was given a fucking role in government FFS! Then there is Rupert Murdoch who openly brags that if he wants something to happen in the UK he just needs to pick up the phone. People who oppose him, such as John Major, Ed Milliband, Clegg, Corbyn, are attacked until destroyed. How dare they pull a face when eating a bacon sandwich or dare not to sing the national anthem. Murdoch was once asked why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.' So you see the UK can be bullied, the EU is too big to be bullied. If a company wants to tap into the EU Market it has to conform to its rules. The EU, despite what you might think as you swallowed 40 years of anti eu rhetoric from the Desmond, Murdoch and Paul Dacre, are pretty good at legislation. What they have done is ensure that products meet minimum standards. This means consumers are protected and a level playing field means unscrupulous, bad employers find it harder. Workers rights and health and safety standards are protected. That doesn’t just apply to workers in the EU but also to companies in other parts of the world. That in turn does its bit to raise standards of living around the globe. The UK doesn’t have the clout, nor the will. That is shown by the opposition we always put up to these sort of measures and the erosion of workers rights successive Tory governments have championed. So, I do not believe being outside the EU will help. I do agree we have the opportunity and more freedom to respond quicker if we Brexit. I do not believe we will take it, based on 40 years of evidence of our own governments. The question then is whether the EU appears more willing to tackle inequality. It’s greater clout says it is more able. Well, as I say it has already done a lot for consumers and a level playing field so that better employers are not undermined by shady companies as much. One of the other big problems is the way multinational companies use sharp business and accounting practices to avoid tax. This is a global problem. The Americans have finally woken up to this under Obama and started trying to do something about it. The problem is it takes a lot of concerted will globally to change things, to start shutting down tax havens and to take on a company as big as a Starbucks or Google requires vast resources. The UK doesn’t have sufficient. I watched quite a few of the select committee hearings where the CEO’s of Google and Philip Green and Ashley and the like were summoned to. The people on the Committee’s were obviously with their heart in the right place, but the only real power they have over these companies is to influence public opinion to hit them in sales. However with the EU it is more encouraging. Switzerland have been forced to be more transparent. Recently the EU have gone after Google and Eire for unfair competition breaches as a result of unfair tax rates. So does the EU seem to willing? I think so. Conversely the UK seem to have been becoming more of a tax haven itself. There are some good ways to tackle inequality. Investment in education and healthy populations are two. Investing in Science is another. In these fields, under Blair we made progress. Under every Tory government we have gone backward. The EU however does invest in Science and Educational programmes and it does put money into suffering regions. So I am more comfortable as a socialist that the EU on average will do more than the governments we are more likely to have. As for the unemployment and austerity measures in Greece, I do not profess to be any sort of expert in the underlying reasons for unemployment but it is certainly partly a result of lack of tax collections and too high pensions. These are not the fault of the EU. A bigger reason though is the increased personal debt the Greek people themselves got themselves into, which when the Financial Crash (Anglo Saxon economic principles caused, not pricinpally the EU) hit locked them into a downward spiral they are unable to repay. A lot of this debt was on luxury goods such as German cars. It is a complex problem to sort, but ultimately the EU will forgive much of the debt. The German finance minister has said as much I believe. Probably the best thing would be for either the Greeks or the Germans to leave the Eurozone. | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? Tell us what these EU austerity measures are and we'll let you know. please tell me that is a joke? You can tell us, don't be shy." simply google EU austerity, theres not enough room here to describe the problems | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times " But you said you don't tell them anything before, now you're saying you tell them you want 10 times more of the item than you really want. So which one is true and which is a lie? Your first post or your second? | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times " ...thank-you for confiding in your buying skills. | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? Tell us what these EU austerity measures are and we'll let you know. please tell me that is a joke? You can tell us, don't be shy. simply google EU austerity, theres not enough room here to describe the problems" Right, so basically you cant tell us then? I wonder what impact EU austerity measures have had on the UK. Was it the EU that scrapped our carriers? Was it the EU that sacked 7,000 prison officers? | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? That's a really good question. I should say from the off I certainly don't think the EU is all sweetness and light. Like Corbyn I probably give it 7/10. I am also not in favour of Socialism over Capitalism. Communism, great in theory doesn’t work in practice due to it’s lack of incentive. Also the state is less adept than the market in catering for people’s needs in many area’s. Capitalism at the other extreme also doesn’t work. Some things the market is unsuitable for addressing. Capitalism with a huge dollop of socialism is the only solution that can give us what we need. There is a flaw in your question though. I don't disagree that there is an ever widening gap between the rich and poor and I am very much against this. However you seem to lay the responsibility at the door of the EU. Inequality has grown throughout the OECD, not just the EU. So to blame the EU as an institution for a worldwide phenomenom is mistaken. Inequality is worse in the US and those adopting a more Anglo Saxon economic approach in fact. So your premise is flawed. The problem goes back 40 years to Thatcher and Reagan. If inequality exists, indeed is worse, elsewhere, then the cause cannot be laid at the door of the EU. Globalisation has exacerbated the problem and it is true that International Companies have driven it. These companies have grown so large they can bully or outmaneuver individual governments, even of countries with an economy as large as ours. Robin Cook used to complain the CEO of BAE Systems must have had a private key to the back door of Number 10 the amount of times he saw him sneaking in and out. Phillip Green was given a fucking role in government FFS! Then there is Rupert Murdoch who openly brags that if he wants something to happen in the UK he just needs to pick up the phone. People who oppose him, such as John Major, Ed Milliband, Clegg, Corbyn, are attacked until destroyed. How dare they pull a face when eating a bacon sandwich or dare not to sing the national anthem. Murdoch was once asked why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.' So you see the UK can be bullied, the EU is too big to be bullied. If a company wants to tap into the EU Market it has to conform to its rules. The EU, despite what you might think as you swallowed 40 years of anti eu rhetoric from the Desmond, Murdoch and Paul Dacre, are pretty good at legislation. What they have done is ensure that products meet minimum standards. This means consumers are protected and a level playing field means unscrupulous, bad employers find it harder. Workers rights and health and safety standards are protected. That doesn’t just apply to workers in the EU but also to companies in other parts of the world. That in turn does its bit to raise standards of living around the globe. The UK doesn’t have the clout, nor the will. That is shown by the opposition we always put up to these sort of measures and the erosion of workers rights successive Tory governments have championed. So, I do not believe being outside the EU will help. I do agree we have the opportunity and more freedom to respond quicker if we Brexit. I do not believe we will take it, based on 40 years of evidence of our own governments. The question then is whether the EU appears more willing to tackle inequality. It’s greater clout says it is more able. Well, as I say it has already done a lot for consumers and a level playing field so that better employers are not undermined by shady companies as much. One of the other big problems is the way multinational companies use sharp business and accounting practices to avoid tax. This is a global problem. The Americans have finally woken up to this under Obama and started trying to do something about it. The problem is it takes a lot of concerted will globally to change things, to start shutting down tax havens and to take on a company as big as a Starbucks or Google requires vast resources. The UK doesn’t have sufficient. I watched quite a few of the select committee hearings where the CEO’s of Google and Philip Green and Ashley and the like were summoned to. The people on the Committee’s were obviously with their heart in the right place, but the only real power they have over these companies is to influence public opinion to hit them in sales. However with the EU it is more encouraging. Switzerland have been forced to be more transparent. Recently the EU have gone after Google and Eire for unfair competition breaches as a result of unfair tax rates. So does the EU seem to willing? I think so. Conversely the UK seem to have been becoming more of a tax haven itself. There are some good ways to tackle inequality. Investment in education and healthy populations are two. Investing in Science is another. In these fields, under Blair we made progress. Under every Tory government we have gone backward. The EU however does invest in Science and Educational programmes and it does put money into suffering regions. So I am more comfortable as a socialist that the EU on average will do more than the governments we are more likely to have. As for the unemployment and austerity measures in Greece, I do not profess to be any sort of expert in the underlying reasons for unemployment but it is certainly partly a result of lack of tax collections and too high pensions. These are not the fault of the EU. A bigger reason though is the increased personal debt the Greek people themselves got themselves into, which when the Financial Crash (Anglo Saxon economic principles caused, not pricinpally the EU) hit locked them into a downward spiral they are unable to repay. A lot of this debt was on luxury goods such as German cars. It is a complex problem to sort, but ultimately the EU will forgive much of the debt. The German finance minister has said as much I believe. Probably the best thing would be for either the Greeks or the Germans to leave the Eurozone. " I won't respond to it all I'd be here forever, just to the last point. It's not only the Greeks though is it, it's all the southern states. The Euro should be scrapped, its caused nothing but misery for them and then its architects need scrapping too before the whole of Europe becomes a continent of the poor | |||
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"I say good riddance to Ivan Rogers. The guy is an out and out Remainer, Pro EU, Europhile down to the bone. As a Remainer he should have resigned his position the day after the referendum vote. Remainers tend to have a pessimistic outlook on Brexit, we need someone in that job who supported Leave during the referendum, with an optimistic pro Brexit attitude. I'm just glad he's gone before article 50 is triggered. " Yep... What a thoughtful, articulate, educated and insightful post. The man obviously had to go and needs to be replaced by a hard-line brexiteer. After all when entering into what are going to be difficult negotiations with people who are in a position of power and have antipathy towards you and you have a choice of a negotiator who has been in post for years and is well liked and respected by those you will be negotiating with, or replace them with someone without that goodwill to draw on only a fool or lunatic would use the former when they could replace them. Something just does not seem right there. Ah, yes I have it now! Only the most rabid of lunatics totally driven by dogma would throw away any advantage they may have prior to entering negotiations. "That would be because he breached the rules. Would you, publicly criticise the government that you serve?" What rule did he breach? I for one had not heard of him briefing against the government until his resignation, in fact I still have not heard of him briefing against the government. Now to be clear he did not work for the government, he worked for the UK. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE UK. Now considering that he works for us, and he was supposed to be the person who would lead the negotiations prior to politicians stepping in at the end to claim the glory and sign the agreement. As he found himself in a position where he was being ignored, sidelined and unable to function. What was he supposed to do if he had come to the conclusion that the countries national interests were being put in jeopardy other than resign? Now if the issues are so compelling that a career diplomat finds they have no choice but to resign do you really think they should go quietly and allow things continue unchallenged? Or do you think that like high ranking military officers who have also resigned because they believe our government is imperilling our country that he needed to make his beliefs public? | |||
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"I didn't tell them I wanted just one" Let's hope Junker's not watching this or we're fucked. -Matt | |||
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" I don't really understand how you square things with your socialist views and your support of the EU and its ever widening gap between the rich and the poor and an organisation that has created so much unemployment. What are your views on EU austerity measures? Tell us what these EU austerity measures are and we'll let you know. please tell me that is a joke? You can tell us, don't be shy. simply google EU austerity, theres not enough room here to describe the problems Right, so basically you cant tell us then? I wonder what impact EU austerity measures have had on the UK. Was it the EU that scrapped our carriers? Was it the EU that sacked 7,000 prison officers? " no, that would be the UK. Was that a good thing? Well imagine it ten times worse in the Eurozone, insisted on by the EU against the poorest countries | |||
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" I won't respond to it all I'd be here forever, just to the last point. It's not only the Greeks though is it, it's all the southern states. The Euro should be scrapped, its caused nothing but misery for them and then its architects need scrapping too before the whole of Europe becomes a continent of the poor" You don't remember that the Greeks voted for more austerity in order to keep the Euro? | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times " Just out of interest, I presume that you go to a different copier supplier each time since this tactic would only work once? | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times Just out of interest, I presume that you go to a different copier supplier each time since this tactic would only work once?" No this time they reeeeeeeally mean it
-Matt | |||
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" I won't respond to it all I'd be here forever, just to the last point. It's not only the Greeks though is it, it's all the southern states. The Euro should be scrapped, its caused nothing but misery for them and then its architects need scrapping too before the whole of Europe becomes a continent of the poor You don't remember that the Greeks voted for more austerity in order to keep the Euro?" you think they had a choice? | |||
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"You maybe surprised how short a memory a large institution has, but there is always someone keen to do a deal in business " And, to be clear, you regard lying to copier suppliers like this a valid business approach? | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field. However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . One career civil servant has just replaced another. Like the incoming one, the outgoing one is a lifelong civil servant who had served his country magnificently but he felt that the direction being asked by Politicians was lacking clarity because there was no strategy, no real team in place and no plan. He has humiliated PM May and her team and if I were a Brexiter, I would be outraged that it has just been revealed that 7 months down the road PM May is still without direction. Brexiters are easily placated though, all is in fact well because he is guilty of the charge of being a Europhile and now he has gone. Therefore rather than an embarrassment it is a victory and just how easily we have the scapegoat and just how easily the Brexit mind is fooled. Let's forget about the lack of plan, strategy and team and let's ignore the wasted 7 months... we found a Europhile and we got him sacked
Instead of concentrating on "How easily the Brexit mind is fooled," why not concentrate on changing the word "Brexit" to "Remain?"
Our esteemed ambassador had an issue or two. His reaction was exremely unprofessional.
I would prefer to debate the individual rather than the all Brexiters/Remainers are clever/silly bevcause they all believe/don't believe xyz."Listen. You have heard today that PM May and her team are nowhere near being prepared to invoke A50 and that 7 months have been wasted. Why are you not furious? Every single right minded Brexiter should be raging mad at the time that has been wasted and the fact that this happens literally weeks before a lifetime event for everyone in this country. Why the fuck are we not better prepared? Every remainer has just been proven right when they have been saying for months that there is no plan, no strategy and no joined up thinking. How embarrassing!!!! The tribalism though is astonishing amongst Brexiters. Just the way in which the outrage that should absolutely be directed at May and Co is being deflected instead into a campaign of victory because a Europhile has been outed and sacked. It really is mind bogglingly incredible to me just how easy it is becoming to deflect people's anger by blaming a scapegoat and thereby avoid having to answer some pretty difficult questions. | |||
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"Achieved nothing? Really? Ok, so playing devils advocate here. His replacement has been announced, Sir Tim Barrow. What has he achieved in his role in Russia / Ukraine? More or less than Ivan Rogers? I'd hazard, that, like me, you have no idea. As like me, and I'd wager most of the country, you'd probably never heard of either of these two men until today. -Matt" Bingo.... thank you for saying this matt!!
there is a lot of "armchair quarterbacking" going on here.... and like i said, if sir ivan was the wrong man from the start....
A) teresa may has been pm for 6 months, which didn't she get rid of him?
B) you never heard 1 person on the leave side saying he had to go until he walked! why do you think that was?
complete bunch of hypocritical BS going on here..... | |||
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"Do you not understand how business works in the real world? " Very much so, I never felt it necessary to lie to my suppliers! And I would have been deeply suspicious of customers who lied to me. And, hell would have frozen over before I sold them goods at the 10 price break for only 1 if they'd lied to me like that. Now, properl honest negotiating may have got them somewhere, but an outright lie? Forget it. | |||
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" I won't respond to it all I'd be here forever, just to the last point. It's not only the Greeks though is it, it's all the southern states. The Euro should be scrapped, its caused nothing but misery for them and then its architects need scrapping too before the whole of Europe becomes a continent of the poor You don't remember that the Greeks voted for more austerity in order to keep the Euro? you think they had a choice?" You allege that The Euro should be scrapped to benefit the southern states (including Greece) but they recently voted for more austerity because they wanted to keep the Euro. Scrapping the Euro would not magic away the Greek debt and unlike some, most Greeks (as well as Spanish and Italians) know this. So I wonder why they were so keen to stay in the Euro when some non Greeks think that it should be scrapped for the benefit of the poor southern states (like Greece). | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times Just out of interest, I presume that you go to a different copier supplier each time since this tactic would only work once?" It might just be that the supplier was happy to get the business in the first instance . With margins being high on these items , common sense would suggest that you negotiate the best possible deal for yourself and establish the best base price . After all , the supplier is not compelled to supply anyone .. | |||
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"If you read back I never told them I wanted 10, just that I may do. " Did you manage to fit the photocopier into your Reliant Regal? | |||
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"If you read back I never told them I wanted 10, just that I may do. " Right, but ethically dubious business practices aside... You have decided you need a photocopier and you have told them that it is a photocopier you are interested in. And you've already agreed with your office that it is a photocopier that you need. Our office (the UK) still hasn't decided if it is a photocopier, shredder, or new chairs that we are looking to procure. The only mandate we have is that we need 'something'. And the staff in this office all have different ideas as to what we need. The person in charge of procurement has said 'Don't worry, we'll be fine'... but we don't know what they are planning on getting and they still don't know if they are going to the photocopier shop or the furniture shop. But whatever they come back with... a good deal of the staff are going to be pissed off as they have been told that they will be getting whatever it was they thought they wanted. -Matt | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times Just out of interest, I presume that you go to a different copier supplier each time since this tactic would only work once? It might just be that the supplier was happy to get the business in the first instance . With margins being high on these items , common sense would suggest that you negotiate the best possible deal for yourself and establish the best base price . After all , the supplier is not compelled to supply anyone .." Well said! This is exactly the issue. The supplier (the EU) is not compelled to supply to anyone... yet we are demanding they meet our demands. -Matt | |||
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"If you read back I never told them I wanted 10, just that I may do. Right, but ethically dubious business practices aside... You have decided you need a photocopier and you have told them that it is a photocopier you are interested in. And you've already agreed with your office that it is a photocopier that you need. Our office (the UK) still hasn't decided if it is a photocopier, shredder, or new chairs that we are looking to procure. The only mandate we have is that we need 'something'. And the staff in this office all have different ideas as to what we need. The person in charge of procurement has said 'Don't worry, we'll be fine'... but we don't know what they are planning on getting and they still don't know if they are going to the photocopier shop or the furniture shop. But whatever they come back with... a good deal of the staff are going to be pissed off as they have been told that they will be getting whatever it was they thought they wanted. -Matt" An excellent analogy! To extend it slightly... And the staff who got what they wanted will be (a) astonished that the pissed off staff are pissed off and (b) angry at them for daring to be pissed off! | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times " Actually that is a pretty lane tactic that can only work once - if at all. They key in any type of negotiation is to know your oppositions strong points and their weak points and to know how they will pitch you. Knowing your opposition is the single most crucial element in a negotiation. The loss of this Ambassador as our chief negotiator is important because like a good General, he knew where the opposition thrust would come from because he knows all about their strengths and their weaknesses. Effective negotiation a two way street and it is not blunderbussing your way through a series of demands and certainly not in the case of us leaving the EU. Time is on the side of the EU, not us. We want to leave and economically we have to make some pretty effective negotiations quickly and we just lost the best guy in the room to do that. | |||
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"The ambassador was the worst man to have there doing anything, they will know how he works" Exactly, they'd never know how Katie Price works... see... I keep telling you... send her in! -Matt | |||
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"You mislead them to start with by suggesting you may want 10 photocopiers, get the lowest price then just buy one, done it many times Just out of interest, I presume that you go to a different copier supplier each time since this tactic would only work once? It might just be that the supplier was happy to get the business in the first instance . With margins being high on these items , common sense would suggest that you negotiate the best possible deal for yourself and establish the best base price . After all , the supplier is not compelled to supply anyone .. Well said! This is exactly the issue. The supplier (the EU) is not compelled to supply to anyone... yet we are demanding they meet our demands. -Matt" I thought it was the other way round .We pay a lot of money into the EU and they will not want to lose out contribution. In addition the German motor industry want to work with us. As a net contributor , we hold the trump cards , not the EU. In addition the EU is in danger of breaking up in any event so we have nothing to lose . The only losers will be the overpaid EU bureaucrats . | |||
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"The ambassador was the worst man to have there doing anything, they will know how he works" The worst man? Blimey, I must say I thought until you said that that I would be pretty shit in the role, not to mention quite a few other blokes I know! Turns out I was wrong! I'll ring Boris tomorrow and offer my serives.
By the way, don't women factor into this? | |||
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" I thought it was the other way round .We pay a lot of money into the EU and they will not want to lose out contribution. In addition the German motor industry want to work with us. As a net contributor , we hold the trump cards , not the EU. In addition the EU is in danger of breaking up in any event so we have nothing to lose . The only losers will be the overpaid EU bureaucrats ." But, Pat, we're only a net contributor when we're paying our £350m per week. After that goes we won't be will we? So they've already lost that as, surely, no one can imagine we'll negotiate a way to keep paying it will we? So having lost our trump cards, what do we negotiate with? | |||
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"The ambassador was the worst man to have there doing anything, they will know how he works The worst man? Blimey, I must say I thought until you said that that I would be pretty shit in the role, not to mention quite a few other blokes I know! Turns out I was wrong! I'll ring Boris tomorrow and offer my serives.
By the way, don't women factor into this?"Pretty sure Ivan Rogers was in fact a man. Or do you think he was a woman? | |||
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" I thought it was the other way round .We pay a lot of money into the EU and they will not want to lose out contribution. In addition the German motor industry want to work with us. As a net contributor , we hold the trump cards , not the EU. In addition the EU is in danger of breaking up in any event so we have nothing to lose . The only losers will be the overpaid EU bureaucrats . But, Pat, we're only a net contributor when we're paying our £350m per week. After that goes we won't be will we? So they've already lost that as, surely, no one can imagine we'll negotiate a way to keep paying it will we? So having lost our trump cards, what do we negotiate with?" Our industries and services . The German motor industry is dependent on the UK. 8 out of 11 formula one racing teams are based in the UK because of our engineering excellence . The EU has a lot more to lose than we have. | |||
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"The ambassador was the worst man to have there doing anything, they will know how he works The worst man? Blimey, I must say I thought until you said that that I would be pretty shit in the role, not to mention quite a few other blokes I know! Turns out I was wrong! I'll ring Boris tomorrow and offer my serives.
By the way, don't women factor into this?
Pretty sure Ivan Rogers was in fact a man. Or do you think he was a woman? "Can you cite a source for that statement? | |||
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"But, Pat, we're only a net contributor when we're paying our £350m per week. After that goes we won't be will we? So they've already lost that as, surely, no one can imagine we'll negotiate a way to keep paying it will we? So having lost our trump cards, what do we negotiate with? Our industries and services . The German motor industry is dependent on the UK. 8 out of 11 formula one racing teams are based in the UK because of our engineering excellence . The EU has a lot more to lose than we have." We've been over this loads of times. Yes, we have engineering excellence, which is why JCB, for instance, designs stuff here. But then they make the darn things in India or some such. I don't think the German automotive industry is 'dependent' on us is it? As in the industry will fail if they lose the UK market? But your earlier point was about us being a net contributor to the EU and therefore holding trump cards, and now you're shifting back the the old (and unsubstantiated) claim that people will want to buy our stuff because it's the best in the world. | |||
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"That there is no Brexit objective, there is no plan, there is no team. No shit!!! Many of us already knew this. We didn't need your 1400 word resignation letter to tell us - but thanks for confirming it anyway. Meanwhile, Nigel Farage and other serial expert haters suggest that all of the deep thinking, studious and thoughtful team of UK Ambassadors like Ivan Rogers should be cleared out for being too expert in his field. However why would anyone care what a disgruntled Ambassador said in his resignation letter . I prefer to pay attention to those in a role who have objectives to achieve , not a disgruntled ambassador who achieved nothing . His resignation is excellent news for anyone who believes in a successfull uk. No one is irreplacable and he will be quickly replaced with someone more capable of doing the role . His resignation is great news for everyone . One career civil servant has just replaced another. Like the incoming one, the outgoing one is a lifelong civil servant who had served his country magnificently but he felt that the direction being asked by Politicians was lacking clarity because there was no strategy, no real team in place and no plan. He has humiliated PM May and her team and if I were a Brexiter, I would be outraged that it has just been revealed that 7 months down the road PM May is still without direction. Brexiters are easily placated though, all is in fact well because he is guilty of the charge of being a Europhile and now he has gone. Therefore rather than an embarrassment it is a victory and just how easily we have the scapegoat and just how easily the Brexit mind is fooled. Let's forget about the lack of plan, strategy and team and let's ignore the wasted 7 months... we found a Europhile and we got him sacked
Instead of concentrating on "How easily the Brexit mind is fooled," why not concentrate on changing the word "Brexit" to "Remain?"
Our esteemed ambassador had an issue or two. His reaction was exremely unprofessional.
I would prefer to debate the individual rather than the all Brexiters/Remainers are clever/silly bevcause they all believe/don't believe xyz.
Listen. You have heard today that PM May and her team are nowhere near being prepared to invoke A50 and that 7 months have been wasted. Why are you not furious? Every single right minded Brexiter should be raging mad at the time that has been wasted and the fact that this happens literally weeks before a lifetime event for everyone in this country. Why the fuck are we not better prepared? Every remainer has just been proven right when they have been saying for months that there is no plan, no strategy and no joined up thinking. How embarrassing!!!!
The tribalism though is astonishing amongst Brexiters. Just the way in which the outrage that should absolutely be directed at May and Co is being deflected instead into a campaign of victory because a Europhile has been outed and sacked.
It really is mind bogglingly incredible to me just how easy it is becoming to deflect people's anger by blaming a scapegoat and thereby avoid having to answer some pretty difficult questions."Well someone in Whitehall or the government can't be trusted. Ivan Rogers resignation email was leaked to the press in a very short space of time. Resignation letters are supposed to remain private. My money is on a Remainer who leaked it, unless the whole thing was an elaborate pre conceived plan by Ivan Rogers and pro EU remainers to do maximum damage to Teresa May and the government. Turns out it backfired though as most Brexiters are happy to see the back of Ivan Rogers. There have been a number of other government leaks in recent months. Maybe Teresa May knows she has a mole in the cabinet or a senior civil servant is doing these leaks, and that is why she is keeping her brexit plan very close to her chest until article 50 is triggered. | |||
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