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Sky News - Divided Nation
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
Anyone else watch this? Chip shop worker stating adamantly that (in her opinion) there will be a civil war unless the UK leaves the EU.
I mean, I get it that people have strong feelings but to correlate a civil war with the EU?
My opinion is that the UK has had it far to cushy, for far too long and people really have no idea just what is worthy of a civil war and what is worthy of a debate. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"The divide between the haves and haves not has never been bigger, the haves need to accept that they need to give more"
What has that got to do with a woman saying on TV that she thinks there will be a civil war if Brexit doesn't happen? The have nots are going to have even less after Brexit so who exactly are the "haves" who are going to give more and why? Brexit will deliver a land of milk and honey, so we are told and so why should the "haves" get blamed if it doesn't and why should they then pay for the supposed informed decisions made by her? She voted Brexit thinking her life would get better, if it doesn't she has no one to blame but herself. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
The Remain vote was lost in the regions outside of London.
Our much needed bypass, that has been promised for years, is being built in instalments with a completion date of 2021! I notice that Crossrail wasn't built in instalments.
Rightly or wrongly, this is what us stupid northerners talk about when we walk down our desolate high streets. Dress it up as the politics of envy if you like, but it's the harsh reality. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"The Remain vote was lost in the regions outside of London.
Our much needed bypass, that has been promised for years, is being built in instalments with a completion date of 2021! I notice that Crossrail wasn't built in instalments.
Rightly or wrongly, this is what us stupid northerners talk about when we walk down our desolate high streets. Dress it up as the politics of envy if you like, but it's the harsh reality."
actually as a rail nut i can tell you crossrail has been completed in different stages, its just the most visable bit (the actually tunnel) is being done in one go....
but i digress....
remember its not just london that voted to remain.... scotland voted to remain, northern ireland voted to remain, i am glad that the city i lived in (newcastle) voted to remain even if the rest of the north east england didn't
i think there is interesting things going on... i think a lot of the 52% have become a lot more emboldened in that some of them with views which i would consider to be beyond the pale now feel like they can say them
racist incidents have gone up since then vote... people who came here, got jobs, paid taxes like the rest of us do feel a lot less secure, i know poeple who at work are exploring different options.... me personally, I am investigating getting an irish passport...
i think it is easy to ramp up the passion, but the leave side didn't have a plan... they just said, oh well your problem now!!!
in a way, and i will give her a tiny bit of credit because i think she has done a piss poor job of handling it so far.... teresa may is right in saying that leave process has to take into consideration as much the 48% who voted stay as much as the 52% who said leave.... because if it doesn't then this wound is never healing!!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This is the politics of austerity!.
Scotland voted in, it's also seen much much less immigration and is subsidised in tax terms so they've not seen austerity to the extent the English have, exactly the same for n Ireland, Wales is worse than them 2 but not quite as bad as England so they just voted out..
This is exactly what you'd expect with mass immigration squeezing services and infrastructure while under the guise of austerity.
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The simple solution should have been honesty, the wealthier will have to dig deep to pay extra for the short to intermediate range but for this they receive a stable country.
Or you can choose this path, the choice is yours. |
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It is quite funny and sad how many people recognise that the problem is caused by the economic divisions in this country. But rather than vote out the political party that introduced and extended the economic divide the people of this country have chosen to remove themselves from the organisation that has tried to lessen the impact of Tory policies. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"This is exactly what you'd expect with mass immigration squeezing services and infrastructure while under the guise of austerity."
Surely you mean austerity squeezing services under the guise of mass immigration?
Immigration has nothing to do with the budget cuts that the government has been putting on local and national services. Immigration has nothing to do with the lack of funding of infrastructure projects. Immigration certainly wasn't why Farage was stuck on the motorway that time.
And those decisions were certainly nothing to do with the EU. They were our own, elected, government's decisions.
I mean, EU net migration to UK is 189,000 people for 12 months to the end of June 2016. We have a population of 64 million. So that represents 0.3% growth per year... hardly going to put a squeeze on things. Especially when
To further put it in perspective, there were 695,233 births in the UK in 2015. And 529,655 deaths. That is a net growth of 165,578. So a similar order of magnitude as EU migration.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Austerity measures are all still to do with the fallout from the collapse of the financial system.......cuts have led to us all suffering with less services and with clever propaganda It all becomes the fault of someone else...in Scotland it is the Westminster govt mainly elsewhere it seems to be immigration....Meanwhile no fucking bankers are in jail...where they should be ...yes folks they are where the blame mainly lies...Oh and i was able to see such a lot of money disappearing abroad as the fan was being hit...let us be educated about where the blame really should be  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is exactly what you'd expect with mass immigration squeezing services and infrastructure while under the guise of austerity.
Surely you mean austerity squeezing services under the guise of mass immigration?
Immigration has nothing to do with the budget cuts that the government has been putting on local and national services. Immigration has nothing to do with the lack of funding of infrastructure projects. Immigration certainly wasn't why Farage was stuck on the motorway that time.
And those decisions were certainly nothing to do with the EU. They were our own, elected, government's decisions.
I mean, EU net migration to UK is 189,000 people for 12 months to the end of June 2016. We have a population of 64 million. So that represents 0.3% growth per year... hardly going to put a squeeze on things. Especially when
To further put it in perspective, there were 695,233 births in the UK in 2015. And 529,655 deaths. That is a net growth of 165,578. So a similar order of magnitude as EU migration.
-Matt"
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I wouldn't argue your sentiment, however I would say Surrey was less burdened by immigration than say Sunderland or Lincolnshire.
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The politicans have made grave errors since the bank bailout and even before thinking that the status quo will go on forever... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anyone else watch this? Chip shop worker stating adamantly that (in her opinion) there will be a civil war unless the UK leaves the EU.
I mean, I get it that people have strong feelings but to correlate a civil war with the EU?
My opinion is that the UK has had it far to cushy, for far too long and people really have no idea just what is worthy of a civil war and what is worthy of a debate."
So a chip shop worker states that there will be a civil war?  |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Anyone else watch this? Chip shop worker stating adamantly that (in her opinion) there will be a civil war unless the UK leaves the EU.
I mean, I get it that people have strong feelings but to correlate a civil war with the EU?
My opinion is that the UK has had it far to cushy, for far too long and people really have no idea just what is worthy of a civil war and what is worthy of a debate.
So a chip shop worker states that there will be a civil war? "
As has also been said on here, for those with short memories. I was merely pointing out that Sky News had found a Brexit extremist in Burnley and she said her bit on national TV.
Sky News have now thankfully managed to find some slightly more erudite Burnley folk to interview. The 25 yr old woman who was on at lunch time was good (and kind of hot too  ) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anyone else watch this? Chip shop worker stating adamantly that (in her opinion) there will be a civil war unless the UK leaves the EU.
I mean, I get it that people have strong feelings but to correlate a civil war with the EU?
My opinion is that the UK has had it far to cushy, for far too long and people really have no idea just what is worthy of a civil war and what is worthy of a debate."
I can understand how people may feel if what they (were lead to believe) they were opting for by voting to leave doesn't actually happen.
There is growing discontent here and across the developed world at the way the powers that be have treated 'Joe Public'. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"The divide between the haves and haves not has never been bigger, the haves need to accept that they need to give more
What has that got to do with a woman saying on TV that she thinks there will be a civil war if Brexit doesn't happen? The have nots are going to have even less after Brexit so who exactly are the "haves" who are going to give more and why? Brexit will deliver a land of milk and honey, so we are told and so why should the "haves" get blamed if it doesn't and why should they then pay for the supposed informed decisions made by her? She voted Brexit thinking her life would get better, if it doesn't she has no one to blame but herself."
How do you know that she will be worse off so far most economic news since the vote has been good ? Those that feel they have lost out on the good things in life will vote for change and who can blame them |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
I've re-read above several times and can't see where it claims she will be worse off. All I see is the asserting what she voted for things to be better by leaving and that if that turns out to not be the case then she had no-one to blame but herself. Or do you think she she should look for someone else to blame if Brexit turns out to be a shambles? Who you you suggest? May?
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The divide between the haves and haves not has never been bigger, the haves need to accept that they need to give more
What has that got to do with a woman saying on TV that she thinks there will be a civil war if Brexit doesn't happen? The have nots are going to have even less after Brexit so who exactly are the "haves" who are going to give more and why? Brexit will deliver a land of milk and honey, so we are told and so why should the "haves" get blamed if it doesn't and why should they then pay for the supposed informed decisions made by her? She voted Brexit thinking her life would get better, if it doesn't she has no one to blame but herself.
How do you know that she will be worse off so far most economic news since the vote has been good ? Those that feel they have lost out on the good things in life will vote for change and who can blame them"
I am quite confident that the demand for chips will continue despite Brexit.  |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I've re-read above several times and can't see where it claims she will be worse off. All I see is the asserting what she voted for things to be better by leaving and that if that turns out to not be the case then she had no-one to blame but herself. Or do you think she she should look for someone else to blame if Brexit turns out to be a shambles? Who you you suggest? May?
-Matt"
The bit that says the have nots will have even less  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Do any brexiters honestly believe brexit will usher in an era of redistribution of wealth for the poorest in the country ?.I really can't see it having any effect on poverty. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
There are already serious problems in Boston, a town that has experienced more than its fair share of migration.
A town that had the highest percentage vote for Out.
A lot of these new migrants have gone on to set up businesses and work hard for themselves. These are becoming the new generation of "haves" and the indigenous population are now resenting this.
Demographics are changing. Other towns such as Rochdale have their share of different problems. If a local person who lives on a sink Estate, who is struggling to just get by and has to put their children in the worst schools, then sees a migrant drive by in a flash car, do you not think that some resentment will be in their mind?
It's not right but it's there. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"There are already serious problems in Boston, a town that has experienced more than its fair share of migration.
A town that had the highest percentage vote for Out.
A lot of these new migrants have gone on to set up businesses and work hard for themselves. These are becoming the new generation of "haves" and the indigenous population are now resenting this.
Demographics are changing. Other towns such as Rochdale have their share of different problems. If a local person who lives on a sink Estate, who is struggling to just get by and has to put their children in the worst schools, then sees a migrant drive by in a flash car, do you not think that some resentment will be in their mind?
It's not right but it's there."
What???
So now we have people resenting foreigners who have create businesses and jobs for others? Now we dont want immigrants who create jobs either - especially if god forbid they drive a nice car to boot?
And we are so supposed to understand and empathise with these self entitled people who give less to society than those who came here, worked hard and did the right thing for themselves and others??....
Uhmmm no.
That attitude is everything that is wrong with so many Britons and is fundamentally why we are so different to Americans. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Do any brexiters honestly believe brexit will usher in an era of redistribution of wealth for the poorest in the country ?.I really can't see it having any effect on poverty."
Of course it won't. Brexit will put the squeeze on the Treasury tax take and there will be less revenue to go out for those who need it most.
The "have nots" believed the lies peddled by those who have been sticking it to them for years and who got them to believe that their pain was all because of foreigners.
It is an undisputed fact that EU migration has benefitted Treasury receipts by a far greater margin than non EU migration and the local indiginous population, both who take out more than they pay in. As soon as EU migration is "curbed" the Revenue & Customs receipts will start to be affected. Add in a bit of inflation brought about by the currency devaluation and watch the have nots start to squeel and complain. Whose fault it will it be this time??? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"I've re-read above several times and can't see where it claims she will be worse off. All I see is the asserting what she voted for things to be better by leaving and that if that turns out to not be the case then she had no-one to blame but herself. Or do you think she she should look for someone else to blame if Brexit turns out to be a shambles? Who you you suggest? May?
-Matt
The bit that says the have nots will have even less "
Less workers coming in means less population growth, means less demand, means less tax receipts, means less available for the have nots and more austerity. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"There are already serious problems in Boston, a town that has experienced more than its fair share of migration.
A town that had the highest percentage vote for Out.
A lot of these new migrants have gone on to set up businesses and work hard for themselves. These are becoming the new generation of "haves" and the indigenous population are now resenting this.
Demographics are changing. Other towns such as Rochdale have their share of different problems. If a local person who lives on a sink Estate, who is struggling to just get by and has to put their children in the worst schools, then sees a migrant drive by in a flash car, do you not think that some resentment will be in their mind?
It's not right but it's there.
What???
So now we have people resenting foreigners who have create businesses and jobs for others? Now we dont want immigrants who create jobs either - especially if god forbid they drive a nice car to boot?
And we are so supposed to understand and empathise with these self entitled people who give less to society than those who came here, worked hard and did the right thing for themselves and others??....
Uhmmm no.
That attitude is everything that is wrong with so many Britons and is fundamentally why we are so different to Americans."
Captured nicely in Holly McNish's poem Mathematics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI
-Matt |
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"The divide between the haves and haves not has never been bigger, the haves need to accept that they need to give more"
Thatchers legacy. Predicted and has come to pass.
The wrong people have generally been blamed though. As if this is the fault of immigrants and a few benefits scroungers! |
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"Do any brexiters honestly believe brexit will usher in an era of redistribution of wealth for the poorest in the country ?.I really can't see it having any effect on poverty.
Of course it won't. Brexit will put the squeeze on the Treasury tax take and there will be less revenue to go out for those who need it most.
The "have nots" believed the lies peddled by those who have been sticking it to them for years and who got them to believe that their pain was all because of foreigners.
It is an undisputed fact that EU migration has benefitted Treasury receipts by a far greater margin than non EU migration and the local indiginous population, both who take out more than they pay in. As soon as EU migration is "curbed" the Revenue & Customs receipts will start to be affected. Add in a bit of inflation brought about by the currency devaluation and watch the have nots start to squeel and complain. Whose fault it will it be this time??? "
The have nots in society already had nothing to begin with. They have nothing to lose by voting for Brexit. The current system wasn't working for them so they have nothing to lose by trying a new system of doing things.
Also more immigrants and increased tax revenues for the Treasury doesn't always translate to better quality of life for folk. The areas of the country which have experienced very high levels of mass uncontrolled immigration, quality of life has been reduced, reflected in more demand for public services like, increased congestion on roads, increasing waiting times for an appointment to see your GP, increased waiting times on longer waiting lists for operations at hospitals and increased waiting times in A and E departments, increased competition for limited available housing, (supply and demand issues usually means landlords charge higher rents), the more houses that are built on the green belt to accommodate more people further reduces quality of life in the destruction of the countryside, for land development, more people in an area usually adds more pollution and so on and so on. Yes austerity has had an impact on these things but high levels of immigration also plays a part. The levels of immigration in this country are far too high and need to be reduced. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do any brexiters honestly believe brexit will usher in an era of redistribution of wealth for the poorest in the country ?.I really can't see it having any effect on poverty.
Of course it won't. Brexit will put the squeeze on the Treasury tax take and there will be less revenue to go out for those who need it most.
The "have nots" believed the lies peddled by those who have been sticking it to them for years and who got them to believe that their pain was all because of foreigners.
It is an undisputed fact that EU migration has benefitted Treasury receipts by a far greater margin than non EU migration and the local indiginous population, both who take out more than they pay in. As soon as EU migration is "curbed" the Revenue & Customs receipts will start to be affected. Add in a bit of inflation brought about by the currency devaluation and watch the have nots start to squeel and complain. Whose fault it will it be this time???
The have nots in society already had nothing to begin with. They have nothing to lose by voting for Brexit. The current system wasn't working for them so they have nothing to lose by trying a new system of doing things.
Also more immigrants and increased tax revenues for the Treasury doesn't always translate to better quality of life for folk. The areas of the country which have experienced very high levels of mass uncontrolled immigration, quality of life has been reduced, reflected in more demand for public services like, increased congestion on roads, increasing waiting times for an appointment to see your GP, increased waiting times on longer waiting lists for operations at hospitals and increased waiting times in A and E departments, increased competition for limited available housing, (supply and demand issues usually means landlords charge higher rents), the more houses that are built on the green belt to accommodate more people further reduces quality of life in the destruction of the countryside, for land development, more people in an area usually adds more pollution and so on and so on. Yes austerity has had an impact on these things but high levels of immigration also plays a part. The levels of immigration in this country are far too high and need to be reduced. "
..well said.  |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
" increasing waiting times for an appointment to see your GP, increased waiting times on longer waiting lists for operations at hospitals and increased waiting times in A and E departments "
i am going to take out that bit of what centaur said in his long piece because that as such is not true.... to be point where i can't let that go unchallenged!
the increased waiting times as such are not based on more immigrants coming in, but a cut by successive government s in the amount of training places in teaching hospitals for both doctors and nurses....
even if you kept all the UK trained staff who are being poached by countries such as australia, new zealand, US, Canada and various parts of the middle east you would find there are less people being trained than there were
and the uncomfortable truth for a lot of the indiginous population, ever since the creation of the NHS, you have always been short of UK trained staff.... which is why since the early 50's for example you have to get nurses trained in the carribean to supplement the numbers....
now days, the best part of about 15% of the entire nhs are staff that have come in from overseas... and the likelyhood is that in a GP setting, A and E and Hospital setting you are way more likely to be treated by someone from overseas than you are to be sitting next to someone from overseas who needs to be treated..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
It is an undisputed fact that EU migration has benefitted Treasury receipts by a far greater margin than non EU migration and the local indiginous population, both who take out more than they pay in. As soon as EU migration is "curbed" the Revenue & Customs receipts will start to be affected. Add in a bit of inflation brought about by the currency devaluation and watch the have nots start to squeel and complain. Whose fault it will it be this time??? "
You are correct that most studies show a net benefit to the UK in terms of tax compared with payouts. How much is very hard to pinpoint due to the assumptions made, according to Oxford University.
Generally speaking, the older a population gets, the more it is likely to contribute less and take more.
It is not the case, however, that the "indigenous" population takes out more than it puts in. |
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"increased waiting times in A and E departments"
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention."
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially."
then if that was the assumption that centaur was using then it would be at best misleading because all waiting times would have gone up using the same level of population....
so at best again that would be misleading based on the evidence (less a&e facilities and less staff being trained).. at worst its a flat out lie used to suit a narrative...
so which would you like centaur to be accused of...... because i know which i am tempted to head in the direction towards.... |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention.
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially."
Or you could argue that the immigration we have had has helped supply a large number of the staff required to run our NHS and without them our NHS would have much less capacity.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention.
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially.
Or you could argue that the immigration we have had has helped supply a large number of the staff required to run our NHS and without them our NHS would have much less capacity.
-Matt"
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
I think we just have to accept that there are people who just can't stand foreigners and the Brexit vote has empowered them to stand tall and display their bigotry out loud.
On this thread alone we have seen and heard comments made purely to suggest that any and all incoming migrants are a burden and therefore not wanted. We have heard third party stories about resentment of successful and/or wealthy migrants and Sky News itself has broadcast comments from someone who feels compelled to correlate Brexit with civil war.
The Sky News survey is right, hatred and intolerance has increased and it is not because of the majority of fair minded, reasonable people in the country. It is the fault of those who present their post truth facts as an agenda to vilify migrants and to try turn others against them by distributing their propaganda on social media and elsewhere.
I feel ashamed to think that some people in my country are now so emboldened as to blame migrants as being the destroyers of the NHS, rather than the saviours that they are. Just how twisted a message can become when it is fuelled by hatred. |
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Badly. Like you care.
On the other hand the transfer payments back do absolute wonders for the general economy and therefore wealth and overall wellbeing of 3rd and second world countries.
We should bring in more immigrants and pay them a bit more and do less Foreign Aid as we rarely target that as well as the immigrants themselves do. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention.
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially.
Or you could argue that the immigration we have had has helped supply a large number of the staff required to run our NHS and without them our NHS would have much less capacity.
-Matt
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came?"
if that is the arguement you want to use, they many not need as many if a lot of uk trained doctors and nurse were not being actively recruited by other countries.... such as australia, new zealand, canada, the usa, a lot of middle east countries ects....
so maybe you should ask them? maybe you can guilt them into coming back...
do it for your country goddamnit!!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention.
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially.
Or you could argue that the immigration we have had has helped supply a large number of the staff required to run our NHS and without them our NHS would have much less capacity.
-Matt
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came?
if that is the arguement you want to use, they many not need as many if a lot of uk trained doctors and nurse were not being actively recruited by other countries.... such as australia, new zealand, canada, the usa, a lot of middle east countries ects....
so maybe you should ask them? maybe you can guilt them into coming back...
do it for your country goddamnit!!!"
so you mean the poorest countries lose out? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
The Sky News survey is right, hatred and intolerance has increased and it is not because of the majority of fair minded, reasonable people in the country. It is the fault of those who present their post truth facts as an agenda to vilify migrants."
Do you not think that your chip shop worker might have had rather extreme views before the referendum? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we just have to accept that there are people who just can't stand foreigners and the Brexit vote has empowered them to stand tall and display their bigotry out loud.
On this thread alone we have seen and heard comments made purely to suggest that any and all incoming migrants are a burden and therefore not wanted. We have heard third party stories about resentment of successful and/or wealthy migrants and Sky News itself has broadcast comments from someone who feels compelled to correlate Brexit with civil war.
The Sky News survey is right, hatred and intolerance has increased and it is not because of the majority of fair minded, reasonable people in the country. It is the fault of those who present their post truth facts as an agenda to vilify migrants and to try turn others against them by distributing their propaganda on social media and elsewhere.
I feel ashamed to think that some people in my country are now so emboldened as to blame migrants as being the destroyers of the NHS, rather than the saviours that they are. Just how twisted a message can become when it is fuelled by hatred."
I think you just clutch at straws and throw accusations around simply because you didn't get what you wanted. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do any brexiters honestly believe brexit will usher in an era of redistribution of wealth for the poorest in the country ?.I really can't see it having any effect on poverty."
A fanciful notion alright |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we just have to accept that there are people who just can't stand foreigners and the Brexit vote has empowered them to stand tall and display their bigotry out loud.
On this thread alone we have seen and heard comments made purely to suggest that any and all incoming migrants are a burden and therefore not wanted. We have heard third party stories about resentment of successful and/or wealthy migrants and Sky News itself has broadcast comments from someone who feels compelled to correlate Brexit with civil war.
The Sky News survey is right, hatred and intolerance has increased and it is not because of the majority of fair minded, reasonable people in the country. It is the fault of those who present their post truth facts as an agenda to vilify migrants and to try turn others against them by distributing their propaganda on social media and elsewhere.
I feel ashamed to think that some people in my country are now so emboldened as to blame migrants as being the destroyers of the NHS, rather than the saviours that they are. Just how twisted a message can become when it is fuelled by hatred.
I think you just clutch at straws and throw accusations around simply because you didn't get what you wanted. "
.. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention.
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially.
Or you could argue that the immigration we have had has helped supply a large number of the staff required to run our NHS and without them our NHS would have much less capacity.
-Matt
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came?"
It doesn't. Other than they are here and working. That is why I can't understand why so many people in this country have such an intolerance towards those born elsewhere. And at best, making them feel unwelcome, at worst preventing them from being able to work here is not going to help pressure on a service already facing significant cuts.
-Matt |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"I wonder how many Brexiteers Sky interviewed before they came across chip shop girl and her over the top 'newsworthy' remark? "
Which answer would you feel most comfortable with?
a) That this was the first person they interviewed at random and hence indicates that this might be a widespread view
or
b) That they interviewed 20 people until they found one with such extreme views and did that in order either fit the narrative they want their views to see, or that they know their viewers will ultimately pay for?
Neither makes me particularly proud to be British.
-Matt |
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"I wonder how many Brexiteers Sky interviewed before they came across chip shop girl and her over the top 'newsworthy' remark? "
Like when George Galloway made his debut speech at the Grassroots out campaign as a surprise guest. When Nigel Farage introduced Galloway on the stage, there were some boos, and a few people walked out but after delivering his speech he got a round of applause from the majority who stayed.
George Galloway appeared on the daily politics programme later the same week on the BBC and Andrew Neil only showed clips of people who booed and got up and stormed out in protest. George Galloway said how about showing the footage of all those who stayed behind and gave me a round of applause after my speech now then? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"increased waiting times in A and E departments
Just picked 1 of your list...
So you think immigration is responsible for increased waiting time in A&E departments. Would you like to explain that please?
(spoiler alert) When you have finished I'm going to point out that over 60 A&E departments have been closed or downgraded since 2010 and ask you to explain why that is not the reason for the increases.
I could do the same with the other things you mention.
Technically, you've just proved Centaur's statement to be completely correct. If A&E services have decreased since 2010 and immigration has increased, then it stands to reason that waiting times have increased. Just one immigrant being seen at A&E means that everyone after them in the queue waits a further (standard) 20 minutes. Factor in the actual figures, and that increases exponentially.
Or you could argue that the immigration we have had has helped supply a large number of the staff required to run our NHS and without them our NHS would have much less capacity.
-Matt
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came?
It doesn't. Other than they are here and working. That is why I can't understand why so many people in this country have such an intolerance towards those born elsewhere. And at best, making them feel unwelcome, at worst preventing them from being able to work here is not going to help pressure on a service already facing significant cuts.
-Matt"
it doesn't? So poorer countries pay to train them and then they leave. So who fills the vacancies in the poorest countries if there are shortages there? No matter, I'm all right Jack. And nobody is against them 'being here', that is a nonsense put about by people who wanted to remain in the EU. People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above |
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" increasing waiting times for an appointment to see your GP, increased waiting times on longer waiting lists for operations at hospitals and increased waiting times in A and E departments
i am going to take out that bit of what centaur said in his long piece because that as such is not true.... to be point where i can't let that go unchallenged!
the increased waiting times as such are not based on more immigrants coming in, but a cut by successive government s in the amount of training places in teaching hospitals for both doctors and nurses....
even if you kept all the UK trained staff who are being poached by countries such as australia, new zealand, US, Canada and various parts of the middle east you would find there are less people being trained than there were
and the uncomfortable truth for a lot of the indiginous population, ever since the creation of the NHS, you have always been short of UK trained staff.... which is why since the early 50's for example you have to get nurses trained in the carribean to supplement the numbers....
now days, the best part of about 15% of the entire nhs are staff that have come in from overseas... and the likelyhood is that in a GP setting, A and E and Hospital setting you are way more likely to be treated by someone from overseas than you are to be sitting next to someone from overseas who needs to be treated....."
If you actually read the whole of my post _abio instead of just selective bits of it, I did say that austerity had played a role in these things but immigration also played a big part in it. I accept and acknowledge that austerity plays a part in it, so there is no attempt at misleading anyone. If you refuse to acknowledge that immigration also plays a part in it I think you are burying your head in the sand to the reality of the situation in many parts of the country that have experienced high levels of immigration. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I wonder how many Brexiteers Sky interviewed before they came across chip shop girl and her over the top 'newsworthy' remark?
Which answer would you feel most comfortable with?
a) That this was the first person they interviewed at random and hence indicates that this might be a widespread view
or
b) That they interviewed 20 people...
-Matt"
Or
c) 10,000
Or
d) Sky located the chip shop worker via other means
Was this survey carried out methodically? How many people took part?
Or were Sky just trying to produce something sensationalist? Hmmm. I wonder... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above"
Do you expect wages here to go up after Brexit? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above
Do you expect wages here to go up after Brexit?"
For sure |
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"People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above
Do you expect wages here to go up after Brexit?"
The leader of the Britain stronger in (Remain) campaign, Stuart Rose said he thought British workers wages would rise if we leave the EU when he appeared before the House of Commons select committee during the referendum. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above
Do you expect wages here to go up after Brexit?
For sure"
OK.
So, you've said before that we'll be able to export to the rest of the world after Brexit and that countries will be keen to get their hands on our goods.
Since in every case that I know of, the cost of manufacturing something is massively affected by the cost of wages, your statement implies that our cost of goods will go up.
Why will people buy our goods when they cost more?
If you maintain that our goods are so good that people want them anyway, despite higher costs, how much more expensive do you think these overseas customers are prepared to pay?
And then, what about people here at home, are they prepared to pay more to buy our more expensive goods? Or should we just buy the cheaper imports?
Since Dyson and JCB, brexit supporters, have already farmed out much of their production overseas because the costs here are already too high, won't more businesses do the same?
Just wondering. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came?
It doesn't. Other than they are here and working. That is why I can't understand why so many people in this country have such an intolerance towards those born elsewhere. And at best, making them feel unwelcome, at worst preventing them from being able to work here is not going to help pressure on a service already facing significant cuts.
-Matt
it doesn't? So poorer countries pay to train them and then they leave. So who fills the vacancies in the poorest countries if there are shortages there? No matter, I'm all right Jack. And nobody is against them 'being here', that is a nonsense put about by people who wanted to remain in the EU. People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above"
How very magnanimous of you.
"Welcome to Britain, you are a skilled person? Oh a Doctor.. ohh sorry, yes I know you have come here to work in our NHS but you best go back to where you came from, I hear there are problems there you need to solve first.
Next!
Oh, Hello sir... welcome to Britain, you are a skilled person? Oh, you are not? Oh, you want to come and be a labourer here? Oh, I'm sorry, we only allow skilled people in. Sorry, you'll have to go back to where you came from. A job as a hospital porter or cleaner? No sorry, that's not skilled either. Sorry.".
Welcome to the future Little Britain!
-Matt |
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"Austerity measures are all still to do with the fallout from the collapse of the financial system.......cuts have led to us all suffering with less services and with clever propaganda It all becomes the fault of someone else...in Scotland it is the Westminster govt mainly elsewhere it seems to be immigration....Meanwhile no fucking bankers are in jail...where they should be ...yes folks they are where the blame mainly lies...Oh and i was able to see such a lot of money disappearing abroad as the fan was being hit...let us be educated about where the blame really should be "
Surely it is not the bankers who are to blame, it is the people or businnesses who borrowed money and defaulted on the debt .I fail to see how bankers can be blamed for that
. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Austerity measures are all still to do with the fallout from the collapse of the financial system.......cuts have led to us all suffering with less services and with clever propaganda It all becomes the fault of someone else...in Scotland it is the Westminster govt mainly elsewhere it seems to be immigration....Meanwhile no fucking bankers are in jail...where they should be ...yes folks they are where the blame mainly lies...Oh and i was able to see such a lot of money disappearing abroad as the fan was being hit...let us be educated about where the blame really should be Surely it is not the bankers who are to blame, it is the people or businnesses who borrowed money and defaulted on the debt .I fail to see how bankers can be blamed for that
. "
And, perhaps, of relaxation of regulations that allowed these bad debts to build up? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Austerity measures are all still to do with the fallout from the collapse of the financial system.......cuts have led to us all suffering with less services and with clever propaganda It all becomes the fault of someone else...in Scotland it is the Westminster govt mainly elsewhere it seems to be immigration....Meanwhile no fucking bankers are in jail...where they should be ...yes folks they are where the blame mainly lies...Oh and i was able to see such a lot of money disappearing abroad as the fan was being hit...let us be educated about where the blame really should be Surely it is not the bankers who are to blame, it is the people or businnesses who borrowed money and defaulted on the debt .I fail to see how bankers can be blamed for that
. "
But it was the bankers that a) lent to people who they knew would not be able to pay back and b) packaged that debt up to be sold in the way they did creating the sub-prime crisis in 2007 that kicked it all off.
-Matt |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Austerity measures are all still to do with the fallout from the collapse of the financial system.......cuts have led to us all suffering with less services and with clever propaganda It all becomes the fault of someone else...in Scotland it is the Westminster govt mainly elsewhere it seems to be immigration....Meanwhile no fucking bankers are in jail...where they should be ...yes folks they are where the blame mainly lies...Oh and i was able to see such a lot of money disappearing abroad as the fan was being hit...let us be educated about where the blame really should be Surely it is not the bankers who are to blame, it is the people or businnesses who borrowed money and defaulted on the debt .I fail to see how bankers can be blamed for that
. "
Criminal negligence?
You lend money at 120% LTV to people who can't pay at back and thereby undermine the very principles of financial responsibility. Package thousands of such loans up and then irresponsibly sell them on to other financial institutions as AA products and thereby negligently pass off shit as gold.
If you or I passed off anything and tried to sell something not as described, we would quite rightly be prosecuted. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Two wrongs don't make a right.... People accepting shit loans are just as bad as the people offering them
All the government deserves some blame for zero financial education |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
and how does it affect the health services from whence they came?
It doesn't. Other than they are here and working. That is why I can't understand why so many people in this country have such an intolerance towards those born elsewhere. And at best, making them feel unwelcome, at worst preventing them from being able to work here is not going to help pressure on a service already facing significant cuts.
-Matt
it doesn't? So poorer countries pay to train them and then they leave. So who fills the vacancies in the poorest countries if there are shortages there? No matter, I'm all right Jack. And nobody is against them 'being here', that is a nonsense put about by people who wanted to remain in the EU. People with skills that are required will always be welcome, what people object to is unlimited cheap unskilled labour which leads to wage stagnation and exploitation of migrants and strains on housing and services etc as mentioned above
How very magnanimous of you.
"Welcome to Britain, you are a skilled person? Oh a Doctor.. ohh sorry, yes I know you have come here to work in our NHS but you best go back to where you came from, I hear there are problems there you need to solve first.
Next!
Oh, Hello sir... welcome to Britain, you are a skilled person? Oh, you are not? Oh, you want to come and be a labourer here? Oh, I'm sorry, we only allow skilled people in. Sorry, you'll have to go back to where you came from. A job as a hospital porter or cleaner? No sorry, that's not skilled either. Sorry.".
Welcome to the future Little Britain!
-Matt"
little Britain? Seems to work fine for the rest of the world |
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"Do any brexiters honestly believe brexit will usher in an era of redistribution of wealth for the poorest in the country ?.I really can't see it having any effect on poverty.
Of course it won't. Brexit will put the squeeze on the Treasury tax take and there will be less revenue to go out for those who need it most.
The "have nots" believed the lies peddled by those who have been sticking it to them for years and who got them to believe that their pain was all because of foreigners.
It is an undisputed fact that EU migration has benefitted Treasury receipts by a far greater margin than non EU migration and the local indiginous population, both who take out more than they pay in. As soon as EU migration is "curbed" the Revenue & Customs receipts will start to be affected. Add in a bit of inflation brought about by the currency devaluation and watch the have nots start to squeel and complain. Whose fault it will it be this time???
The have nots in society already had nothing to begin with. They have nothing to lose by voting for Brexit. The current system wasn't working for them so they have nothing to lose by trying a new system of doing things.
Also more immigrants and increased tax revenues for the Treasury doesn't always translate to better quality of life for folk. The areas of the country which have experienced very high levels of mass uncontrolled immigration, quality of life has been reduced, reflected in more demand for public services like, increased congestion on roads, increasing waiting times for an appointment to see your GP, increased waiting times on longer waiting lists for operations at hospitals and increased waiting times in A and E departments, increased competition for limited available housing, (supply and demand issues usually means landlords charge higher rents), the more houses that are built on the green belt to accommodate more people further reduces quality of life in the destruction of the countryside, for land development, more people in an area usually adds more pollution and so on and so on. Yes austerity has had an impact on these things but high levels of immigration also plays a part. The levels of immigration in this country are far too high and need to be reduced. "
An excellent post .
It is a pity that some of those who favour uncontrolled immigration did not visit some of the areas worst affected before making their comments . I can only assume that they are totally I different to the needs of certain areas .
Maybe they should visit towns like Boston in Lincs. It is hardly surprising that 70% of the voters there voted to leave . |
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Immigration is good for a country.
There should be only one control on immigration - have you got a job!
The people advocating the state can make better choices than the market are deliberately forgetting the lessons of the failure of communism v capitalism. Isn't that odd? These people are usually right wing economically, now they advocate state planning. By this fucking incompetent shower in government to boot!
Well, they are sort of right that state planning is required. They just get it arse about tit. We need young hard working driven people to boost us economically and make up for the ageing population. The pressures they can bring short term are failures of state planning. Failure to invest in infrastructure, communications and affordable housing. These are failures of ourselves not immigrants. We know we need them, we know they ALWAYS boost an economy. We should cater for them.
The idea beaurocrats can decide who we need better than the market is fanciful. Immigrants, skilled and unskilled are required. If they aren't they don't get a job. Currently we have low unemployment. It is often insecure employment but again that can be tackled with state legislation.
The state just needs to be on the ball with legislation for benefits to ensure it is not available to those newly arrived without a job. People who haven't paid in shouldn't be able to draw out. Which they can't by and large.
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
It seems to me that many voted out thinking it will provide jobs in there areas,I voted out but I am sure this will not provide extra jobs.
When people talk about revolution well it could happen in or out of Europe as the poverty in many areas is ignored by all governments labour or tory.
We are two separate countries in England never mind the rest of the UK,and Europe is irrevilent to this I feel,it is being used as an excuse |
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