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Is Free Trade always good?
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
Not to answer your question... but to add... that I was, personally, against the TPP and I know a lot of people that were. Nothing to do with 'free trade', but to do with the vast vast legal implications and additional aspects of it, all of which were negotiated behind closed doors.
e.g. the TPP crossed over a lot into digital rights management and IP law. ie. by agreeing to the terms of the TPP several nations would have has to re-write a lot of their domestic policy on IP law and be subject to much more draconian laws from other countries.
Another small, but significant feature was that it would prohibit a country from adopting a law that mandates code review or release of source code for software. When you combine things like that with electronic voting you start to open up a whole can of worms.
So in short, be aware that many of these agreements cover so much more than just 'free trade'. And hence why they take so long to negotiate. If we go out to create a free trade deal with, say, India... it is not going to be a simple affair of 'you can trade this and that freely with no tariffs.'. It will have a whole load of other clauses and conditions attached to it. The TPP is something like 5,000 pages long... it is a biiiig document.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?"
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods"
Ok, so assuming you mean that it will be easier to sell our good due to tariffs and red tape on imports to, say, China being dropped... what is in it for them? Why would they agree to lose their import tariff income and control of incoming goods if not for some gain on their side? What, in your mind, would you see that gain to them being?
-Matt |
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods"
So why doesn't Trump see the benefits of selling American goods in their markets? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods
Ok, so assuming you mean that it will be easier to sell our good due to tariffs and red tape on imports to, say, China being dropped... what is in it for them? Why would they agree to lose their import tariff income and control of incoming goods if not for some gain on their side? What, in your mind, would you see that gain to them being?
-Matt"
because it would make it easier for them to invest in the UK and allow easier access for their banks, hey they might even create jobs here |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods
Ok, so assuming you mean that it will be easier to sell our good due to tariffs and red tape on imports to, say, China being dropped... what is in it for them? Why would they agree to lose their import tariff income and control of incoming goods if not for some gain on their side? What, in your mind, would you see that gain to them being?
-Matt
because it would make it easier for them to invest in the UK and allow easier access for their banks, hey they might even create jobs here"
OK, so how does it make it easier for them to invest in the UK?
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods
Ok, so assuming you mean that it will be easier to sell our good due to tariffs and red tape on imports to, say, China being dropped... what is in it for them? Why would they agree to lose their import tariff income and control of incoming goods if not for some gain on their side? What, in your mind, would you see that gain to them being?
-Matt
because it would make it easier for them to invest in the UK and allow easier access for their banks, hey they might even create jobs here
OK, so how does it make it easier for them to invest in the UK?
-Matt"
I don't know the intracacies but isn't that the whole point of FTA's? To make trade and investment easier? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Many say that the rise in popularism around the world is due, at least in part, to people feeling left behind in the globalised world.
Trump thinks the answer to this is to withdraw from free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, with South Korea etc.
Brexiters seem to be taking a different approach and saying that free trade with countries like India and China will be good for the UK.
Will this be good for the UK, or destroy our economy as cheap goods flood the market and jobs flow out?
cheap goods flood the market? Its been flooded with cheap goods for years. The difference is it will make it easier to sell our goods
Ok, so assuming you mean that it will be easier to sell our good due to tariffs and red tape on imports to, say, China being dropped... what is in it for them? Why would they agree to lose their import tariff income and control of incoming goods if not for some gain on their side? What, in your mind, would you see that gain to them being?
-Matt
because it would make it easier for them to invest in the UK and allow easier access for their banks, hey they might even create jobs here
OK, so how does it make it easier for them to invest in the UK?
-Matt
I don't know the intracacies but isn't that the whole point of FTA's? To make trade and investment easier?"
Well, yes, they are. But above you state that our market is already flooded with cheap goods. That implies that there doesn't need to be any incentive for more of those cheap goods to land on our shores. Either they are getting here just fine without any incentives, or we have enough of them and don't need any more. Either way, is seems that if that were the case then a FTA wouldn't benefit the other side. So what are we going to offer them in return from them allowing us to sell our goods easier to them?
-Matt |
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Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves |
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves "
Can you name one country in the world were the government collects import tariffs and gives it, as a grant, to private companies to cover their tariffs when exporting? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If the UK were to make free trade agreements with places like China and India with no tariffs if will simply wipe out most small manufacturing businesses here UK companies have to pay minimum wages and look after employees rights which in turn mean they will have to charge higher to make a profit places like China and India ..when you think it's cheaper for Fisher men in Scotland to catch there fish and export to China get it package and then import it back to Scotland than for for them to package it themselves you get the idea of what will happen |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"If the UK were to make free trade agreements with places like China and India with no tariffs if will simply wipe out most small manufacturing businesses here UK companies have to pay minimum wages and look after employees rights which in turn mean they will have to charge higher to make a profit places like China and India ..when you think it's cheaper for Fisher men in Scotland to catch there fish and export to China get it package and then import it back to Scotland than for for them to package it themselves you get the idea of what will happen "
Thanks for your post.....  |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves
Can you name one country in the world were the government collects import tariffs and gives it, as a grant, to private companies to cover their tariffs when exporting? "
Not withstanding the fact that other nations would penalise us for any such actions, the WTO would slaughter us. |
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"Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves
Can you name one country in the world were the government collects import tariffs and gives it, as a grant, to private companies to cover their tariffs when exporting? "
Did not say we should or would just pointing out that tariffs benefit us way more than other countries, ill put it another way nobody buys from uk based totally on price we are one of the most expensive producer of anything they buy because we are either the only place they can get something or they want the best so i say bring tariffs on they hurt us way less than some think |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves
Can you name one country in the world were the government collects import tariffs and gives it, as a grant, to private companies to cover their tariffs when exporting?
Did not say we should or would just pointing out that tariffs benefit us way more than other countries, ill put it another way nobody buys from uk based totally on price we are one of the most expensive producer of anything they buy because we are either the only place they can get something or they want the best so i say bring tariffs on they hurt us way less than some think"
I've often seen this comment on here and regularly ask the simple question 'what'? As in, what do we make that is either the only place it can be got or that is the best (or at least sufficiently better it's worth paying more for)?
The answer I always get is about diggers and Dyson products, most of which, it seems, aren't made here anyway.
So, your turn, what products are you thinking of?
My view (and no doubt I'll be slammed again for 'wanting to do Britain down'!) is that we do make great stuff. We make some world beating stuff that people really will want to pay more for. However, I don't see that there's enough of it that we can say 'bring on the tariffs'. |
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Given the end user is the ultimate payer of tariffs and given we are massively a net importer of goods I am glad you are taking this additional, unnecessary tax with good grace.
Let's hope the people struggling to manage take it with equally good grace. |
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"Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves
Can you name one country in the world were the government collects import tariffs and gives it, as a grant, to private companies to cover their tariffs when exporting?
Did not say we should or would just pointing out that tariffs benefit us way more than other countries, ill put it another way nobody buys from uk based totally on price we are one of the most expensive producer of anything they buy because we are either the only place they can get something or they want the best so i say bring tariffs on they hurt us way less than some think
I've often seen this comment on here and regularly ask the simple question 'what'? As in, what do we make that is either the only place it can be got or that is the best (or at least sufficiently better it's worth paying more for)?
The answer I always get is about diggers and Dyson products, most of which, it seems, aren't made here anyway.
So, your turn, what products are you thinking of?
My view (and no doubt I'll be slammed again for 'wanting to do Britain down'!) is that we do make great stuff. We make some world beating stuff that people really will want to pay more for. However, I don't see that there's enough of it that we can say 'bring on the tariffs'."
Well living in derby the first one is rolls royce aero enginesand then theres jcb and jaguar land rover and lots of scientific and precision engineering companies but i ask this if you can most of your shopping from aldi why would you choose to shop at fortnum and masons unless you thought it was worth the extra money |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Well we have had free trade within the eu for forty years and all it has achieved is its taken us from a trade surplus position to a trade deficit situation and a steady flow of jobs out of the country as more and more companies realised they could produce their goods cheaper elsewher ship them here and still make more money cadburys and ford to name just two with tariffs we could use the import duties to pay companies export duties and still have money left it is high time we stopped worrying so much about the rest of the world and worried more about ourselves
Can you name one country in the world were the government collects import tariffs and gives it, as a grant, to private companies to cover their tariffs when exporting?
Did not say we should or would just pointing out that tariffs benefit us way more than other countries, ill put it another way nobody buys from uk based totally on price we are one of the most expensive producer of anything they buy because we are either the only place they can get something or they want the best so i say bring tariffs on they hurt us way less than some think
I've often seen this comment on here and regularly ask the simple question 'what'? As in, what do we make that is either the only place it can be got or that is the best (or at least sufficiently better it's worth paying more for)?
The answer I always get is about diggers and Dyson products, most of which, it seems, aren't made here anyway.
So, your turn, what products are you thinking of?
My view (and no doubt I'll be slammed again for 'wanting to do Britain down'!) is that we do make great stuff. We make some world beating stuff that people really will want to pay more for. However, I don't see that there's enough of it that we can say 'bring on the tariffs'.
Well living in derby the first one is rolls royce aero enginesand then theres jcb and jaguar land rover and lots of scientific and precision engineering companies but i ask this if you can most of your shopping from aldi why would you choose to shop at fortnum and masons unless you thought it was worth the extra money"
You're right about RR engines. And Jaguar Land Rover. Add in Aston Martin too by all means. These are the very things I referred to above, and there simply isn't enough of them. They are, by their nature, low volume products.
My point is that you need a lot of goods like this to make tariffs work in our favour. We just don't have enough.
Which is one of the reasons we were crazy to vote leave! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm an importer of food stuffs......and it absolutely is the end user who bares the brunt of tariffs.
What foodstuff do you import? If its a good chorizo or manchego who do you supply?"
Truly a man of taste! Add in an excellent Serrano ham and we're really talking! |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"You're right about RR engines. And Jaguar Land Rover. Add in Aston Martin too by all means. These are the very things I referred to above, and there simply isn't enough of them. They are, by their nature, low volume products.
My point is that you need a lot of goods like this to make tariffs work in our favour. We just don't have enough.
Which is one of the reasons we were crazy to vote leave! "
Well, partially correct. All of these countries are deeply enmeshed in the EU as their "domestic" supply chain. Almost every element on every one of their products is touched by specialist suppliers from outside the UK. The UK also generatwsronly a fraction of the engineering expertise that it needs to remain competitive. Extremely high propositions of the engineering staff are from the EU.
At best we will end up as a design and research centre (like Dyson). These will be well paid technical jobs, but skilled jobs in manufacturing and assembly will move.
Airbus flies wings(!) from the UK to France for assembly. That won't last.
Jaguar Land Rover are building a factory in the Czech Republic and assembling cars in Austria.
The only consistent Leave argument on the economy was for unilateral tariff removals which would mean everything in the UK would be cheaper. It appears that nothing would be manufactured here. |
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For free trade to work there has to be a level playing field. clearly there is not a level playing field world wide, therefore free trade only works in blocks like the EU that have established an internal level playing field.
Fact is that even inside trading blocks some if not all members play fast and loose with the rules in order to gain an advantage. If this is the case in close trading and political alliances it does not bode well for independent countries that are totally dependant on the good will of others.
Personally for all his faults I believe The Donald is correct when he says that countries need to use protectionist measures to stop dumping in markets. Of course trade barriers be they quotas or taxes do reduce global trade and increase prices and therefore restrict or contract economic growth. They have also led to economic wars and some of those have turned into real wars. So protectionism is not without it's risks. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"For free trade to work there has to be a level playing field. clearly there is not a level playing field world wide, therefore free trade only works in blocks like the EU that have established an internal level playing field.
Fact is that even inside trading blocks some if not all members play fast and loose with the rules in order to gain an advantage. If this is the case in close trading and political alliances it does not bode well for independent countries that are totally dependant on the good will of others.
Personally for all his faults I believe The Donald is correct when he says that countries need to use protectionist measures to stop dumping in markets. Of course trade barriers be they quotas or taxes do reduce global trade and increase prices and therefore restrict or contract economic growth. They have also led to economic wars and some of those have turned into real wars. So protectionism is not without it's risks."
Absolutely spot on and this is the very reason that no one at all has any faith that PrimeMinister May and her motley crew have any idea what they are doing when they declare that the UK will be the free trade champion of the word. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"In the vast majority of cases, "free trade" actually means freedom for the huge trans-national corporations."
Indeed. And that was the criticism of the TPP. It included amongst its 5,000 pages the 'freedom' for personal data of citizens in one country to be sent to other countries. It included the 'freedom' for companies to sell proprietary products in security-sensitive areas with no ability for inspection of validation. It included the 'freedom' for companies to go after citizens of another country with harsh fines for alleged intellectual property infringements. And all of it negotiated in secret without any public scrutiny.
And yet, brexiteers believe that a country might want to tack something like 'freedom of movement' onto a free trade deal is absurd.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For free trade to work there has to be a level playing field. clearly there is not a level playing field world wide, therefore free trade only works in blocks like the EU that have established an internal level playing field.
"
Is it a level playing field. Different members, for instance, pay varying amounts into the EU, so you could say that it is not truly tariff free.
Whether free trade agreements elsewhere would be a good thing depends on many factors. For what it is worth (and I don't think it is worth a lot), the majority view of economists does seem to be that free trade deals would be beneficial to our economy. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
Is it a level playing field. Different members, for instance, pay varying amounts into the EU, so you could say that it is not truly tariff free.
Whether free trade agreements elsewhere would be a good thing depends on many factors. For what it is worth (and I don't think it is worth a lot), the majority view of economists does seem to be that free trade deals would be beneficial to our economy."
A national government paying for the membership of the EU is not a tariff. A tariff is levied on business activity.
From the perspective of a small country whose volume of trade is low the membership fee is relatively high if that is your only measure. For a large country with a large volume of trade the benefit is larger and not borne directly by individual companies.
You could argue that this means that the population is subsidising companies trade through general taxation, but if there's more work and more money as a result... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Is it a level playing field. Different members, for instance, pay varying amounts into the EU, so you could say that it is not truly tariff free.
Whether free trade agreements elsewhere would be a good thing depends on many factors. For what it is worth (and I don't think it is worth a lot), the majority view of economists does seem to be that free trade deals would be beneficial to our economy.
A national government paying for the membership of the EU is not a tariff. A tariff is levied on business activity.
From the perspective of a small country whose volume of trade is low the membership fee is relatively high if that is your only measure. For a large country with a large volume of trade the benefit is larger and not borne directly by individual companies.
You could argue that this means that the population is subsidising companies trade through general taxation, but if there's more work and more money as a result..."
But however you argue it, it is not a level playing field. Some countries pay more in than they get back. Some get back more than they pay in. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As in the UK gets a shitload more out than we pay in, you mean?"
As with most statistics, they are all up for grabs and it depends on the factors you take into account.
It is often accepted that we are a net contributor but how is that calculated? What are benefits and what are costs? How far do you go in calculating each of those? |
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The real problem with the EU as far as many are concerned is that the rich countries in the north and west pay more than the poor countries in the south and east. You know, like the system we have here where the richer you are the less you pay in. Works great here, how dare the EU try and impose a little social justice on the UK when with a little manipulation by the media the money being paid to the EU can be trousered by the super rich and multinational corporations...  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"As with most statistics, they are all up for grabs and it depends on the factors you take into account.
It is often accepted that we are a net contributor but how is that calculated? What are benefits and what are costs? How far do you go in calculating each of those?"
This is not a zero sum game. Poorer individuals and nations spend more of their income. This is increased liquidity, so transferring cash from rich to poor means more spending. More investment to feed supply. More tax to transfer. The poorer can buy more and better. They start investing in making things too. Increase in the money supply. The cake gets bigger. That is measured crudely as GDP and the benefit to individuals as GDP per head.
The membership fee to the EU is balanced against this, which does not have a number attached to it. You can't directly attribute growth in GDP resulting purely from trade so there is a fixation on the contribution which is easy to bemoan. |
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You said you import food. Food is meat and cheese. Everything else is what my food eats. 