FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > ID needed to vote.
ID needed to vote.
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"If it's simply producing a utility bill as has been suggested by some sources then I don't see a problem with it, if it's a passport as has been suggested in some sources then it's going to be a problem for many....I'll wait and see the official government statement on the matter." Really? If its simply producing a utility bill... You see that producing a passport will be a problem for many, but not a utility bill? What about those who prepay their utility bills? They don't have utility bills. What about people who live in HMO's, hostels or temporary accommodation? What about the homeless? Seems to me that this new regulation is designed to disproportionately disenfranchise the poor, who are most lightly to be Labour voters. | |||
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"The problem with the changes that have been and are being made is they reduce the number of people able to vote. That cannot be good for representative government." How.....? By stopping those who are not eligible? If you are entitled to vote....then you have ID. You're argument is spurious nonsense! | |||
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"It's P R we really need !" We had a referendum on this during the previous parliament. Overwhelmingly rejected...but not relevant to this particular post. | |||
"If it's simply producing a utility bill as has been suggested by some sources then I don't see a problem with it, if it's a passport as has been suggested in some sources then it's going to be a problem for many....I'll wait and see the official government statement on the matter. Really? If its simply producing a utility bill... You see that producing a passport will be a problem for many, but not a utility bill? What about those who prepay their utility bills? They don't have utility bills. What about people who live in HMO's, hostels or temporary accommodation? What about the homeless? Seems to me that this new regulation is designed to disproportionately disenfranchise the poor, who are most lightly to be Labour voters." In the circumstances above you can be pretty sure you will have a letter from the council or the benefits people. This is simply designed to stop voter fraud. | |||
"The problem with the changes that have been and are being made is they reduce the number of people able to vote. That cannot be good for representative government. How.....? By stopping those who are not eligible? If you are entitled to vote....then you have ID. You're argument is spurious nonsense!" Although I think this may be a good idea and certainly worth thinking through, your statement about if you're entitled to vote then you have ID doesn't hold up. Plenty of 18 year olds would fall into this category, no driving licence, no utility bills, no passport. Plenty more older people too for the same reasons. | |||
"It's P R we really need ! We had a referendum on this during the previous parliament. Overwhelmingly rejected...but not relevant to this particular post." What was on offer, AV, is more of an ersatz PR - fools' gold, rightly rejected. There is no great appetite among the establishment political parties in this country for real reform and a fully functioning democracy - which is why they are losing support to the insurgents. UKIP's representation at Westminster, just one MP but 3.8 million votes, is an affront to the principles of democracy. Returning to the topic, electoral fraud is a serious issue in areas with significant numbers of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis; not that they are the sole culprits, but they are the worst. With control of a council comes power and patronage, the distribution of grants, the awarding of council contracts, allocation of expenditure. Turning a blind eye to such malpractice and criminality can never be acceptable. | |||
"Some people have been clearly taking the piss so it's about time!" Exactly. 
You need your ID card to vote in Germany and I'm pretty sure the same applies to most (if not all) other EU countries.
I wonder if the naysayers would still be as vociferous if this had come in the form of an EU directive. Hmmmmm.  | |||
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"The problem with the changes that have been and are being made is they reduce the number of people able to vote. That cannot be good for representative government. How.....? By stopping those who are not eligible? If you are entitled to vote....then you have ID. You're argument is spurious nonsense! Although I think this may be a good idea and certainly worth thinking through, your statement about if you're entitled to vote then you have ID doesn't hold up. Plenty of 18 year olds would fall into this category, no driving licence, no utility bills, no passport. Plenty more older people too for the same reasons." As my grandmother would have said. "You are putting the cart before the horse" Firstly the 2018 trial is exactly that. A trial. I'm pretty sure that potential problems like that will be either allowed for in the trial or ironed out before (or even if) it's rolled out nationally. Also, as my grandmother used to say. "Don't shout before you've been hurt" | |||
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"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? " I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost. | |||
"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost." And including being ineligible. | |||
"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost. And including being ineligible." Ineligible for ID? | |||
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"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost. And including being ineligible. Ineligible for ID?" Ineligible to vote. | |||
"But really I have to ask... is this actually a problem? Ie, is there really an issue with voter fraud in this country or are the govt just looking for an excuse to inconvenience people? -Matt" The judge in the Tower Hamlets voter fraud trial said the voting irregularities in the borough would embarrass a Banana Republic!? And all the result of Blair and his New Labour cronies and their Politically Correct unconditional voter-importing policies. | |||
"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost. And including being ineligible. Ineligible for ID? Ineligible to vote. " And what has that got to do with whether they have / have not got ID? | |||
"But really I have to ask... is this actually a problem? Ie, is there really an issue with voter fraud in this country or are the govt just looking for an excuse to inconvenience people? -Matt The judge in the Tower Hamlets voter fraud trial said the voting irregularities in the borough would embarrass a Banana Republic!? And all the result of Blair and his New Labour cronies and their Politically Correct unconditional voter-importing policies. " But wasn't it New Labour who wanted to introduce ID cards? | |||
"But really I have to ask... is this actually a problem? Ie, is there really an issue with voter fraud in this country or are the govt just looking for an excuse to inconvenience people? -Matt" I suspect that there is a problem with voter fraud that could be sorted with ID to vote. The question is how big a problem? I think that's the nub of it, are we using a sledgehammer to crack a nut? If we make it so we need ID we will certainly inconvenience some people, is thst incovenience necessary to reduce the problem of voter fraud (it cannot be eliminated, nothing like this can)? Then, of course, won't the voter fraud shift to postal ballots? What about proxy ballots? | |||
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"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost. And including being ineligible. Ineligible for ID? Ineligible to vote. And what has that got to do with whether they have / have not got ID?" If The reason they may be ineligible to vote...is because they shouldn't be here...then they won't have ID. | |||
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"I don't really see the problem with this if it's as being reported. Most people have bank accounts so can get a statement with their name on, or have some form of ID (passport/driving licence). Voting is probably the most powerfull tool we have as a population so we should all be concerned with finding the right balance. It can't be allowed to be too onerous as to disenfranchised people, but nor should it be so easy as to be open to fraud." I think you're underestimating the number of people, of various ages, who don't have bank accounts. We're sitting here with our bank accounts, driving licences, passports, utility bills. I bet most of us have all of those. There'll be very few on here without any of these. We should not allow this to blind us to people who don't have any of them. It is quite common in older people (although, yes, they will probably have a pension book or similar) where one person looks after all of this leaving the spouse with none. And if you're an 18 yr old with no wish (or money) to drive or travel, what do you have? Especially if you don't drink or smoke? To me it boils down to this... How big is the problem of voter fraud? Will requiring ID reduce it enough and how big of a different problem will that cause? | |||
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"It dose not cost much to I.D or how about ask the government to issue I.D cards oh wait people some people don't want that " There are plenty of people who can't afford the cost of ID that you are making sound trivial, are you suggesting that they shouldn't be able to vote? The issue of ID cards should, probably, be another thread!  | |||
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"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... " This and CLCC's point does make as much sense as, say, a utility bill! To improve on it you'd need to go photo ID. | |||
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"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... " because one person in a household could use all the cards? | |||
"What is the problem with people having ID ? If you want to be served in a pub you have to have ID buying tobacco or cigarettes you need ID so why not to vote ? I don't need ID to be served in a pub, I've never been IDd for that, or age related products in supermarkets, etc. Not once. The problem is that there are lots of people that don't have ID. So to make them go out and get some so that they can vote, well many simply won't, or can't, and then will be disenfanchised. Why do I say can't? A range of reasons starting with cost. And including being ineligible. Ineligible for ID? Ineligible to vote. And what has that got to do with whether they have / have not got ID?" Er. I thought that was what the thread was all about.  | |||
"Birth Certificate? social security card? NHS card? along with voting card? How expensive is that?" Well, I got a genuine copy from the register office people of my mum's birth certificate with no need for any input from her at all, so probably that wouldn't be much use since it appears that anyone can get a copy of anyone else's birth certificate! Just fill is an online form and pay for it then wait for it to arrive. What's a social security card? Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards?" True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? " Abolish the Labour party? | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards?" Because it doesn't have sex and DOB on it? Well neither does my electricity bill. | |||
"Birth Certificate? social security card? NHS card? along with voting card? How expensive is that? Well, I got a genuine copy from the register office people of my mum's birth certificate with no need for any input from her at all, so probably that wouldn't be much use since it appears that anyone can get a copy of anyone else's birth certificate! Just fill is an online form and pay for it then wait for it to arrive. What's a social security card? Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know." I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? Abolish the Labour party? "Naughty! | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? Abolish the Labour party? "fuck it, just allow white middle aged men to vote | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits?" I've checked, they don't get issued. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued." Hey, let's use our EHICs, they're free! Oh, wait, hang on... | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued." of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc" From NHS website: Note: medical cards are no longer issued in England. If you still have one it may have an old-style NHS Number made-up of both letters and numbers. However, in recent years this has been replaced for all patients with an NHS Number made containing only numbers (as shown in the example above). | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc" And from same page... Your NHS Number is unique to you. The number will appear on most official documents and letters you receive from the NHS, including prescriptions, test results or hospital appointment letters. You don't need to know your NHS Number to receive care, and you should not be denied care on the basis you do not know, or do not have, an NHS Number. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc" Are you thinking about pre-payment certificates? They cost money, I pay for mine because I am on regular medication and it works out cheaper. My wife isn’t and so just pays for prescriptions when she needs one, are you suggesting that she shouldn't be allowed to vote? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc" So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up!" and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc Are you thinking about pre-payment certificates? They cost money, I pay for mine because I am on regular medication and it works out cheaper. My wife isn’t and so just pays for prescriptions when she needs one, are you suggesting that she shouldn't be allowed to vote?" no, plastic NHS cards | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? " The suggestion is that postal voters will have to reapply every 3 years. | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? The suggestion is that postal voters will have to reapply every 3 years." But if people are saying that one person in the house will steal all the polling cards, what's to stop them from stealing the postal votes? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one" Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc Are you thinking about pre-payment certificates? They cost money, I pay for mine because I am on regular medication and it works out cheaper. My wife isn’t and so just pays for prescriptions when she needs one, are you suggesting that she shouldn't be allowed to vote? no, plastic NHS cards" That you have been told dont exist anymore? You think these cards magically update themselves to tell the person looking at them if the owner is currently claiming a benefit or has a medical condition that means they don't have to pay for prescriptions? Sounds a bit far fetched to me.  | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? The suggestion is that postal voters will have to reapply every 3 years. But if people are saying that one person in the house will steal all the polling cards, what's to stop them from stealing the postal votes? " Or simply, with no fraud or theft invloved since isn't part of this issue about people being told to give up their votes, getting a proxy vote for the people invloved and then turning up, getting half a dozen ballot papers and voting how they want? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. " Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions." Do you actually need it to claim them? When my kids were getting free ones all I did was sign the prescription at the pharmacy, no card needed. Have you got the card there? What's it called exactly? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions." Does every registered voter? | |||
"Why isnt your polling card enough of an id ... after all youve had to register to get it .... Another cock up and waste of tax payers money ... because one person in a household could use all the cards? True. But what about postal votes and proxy votes? How do you stop the fraud in them? The suggestion is that postal voters will have to reapply every 3 years." I think you apply every year now don't you, on that electoral register form you get from the council annually? And then you can do so when the poll is announced, up to about a week before the poll or some such. Similarly for proxy votes. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Do you actually need it to claim them? When my kids were getting free ones all I did was sign the prescription at the pharmacy, no card needed. Have you got the card there? What's it called exactly? " Yes, I do need it. Without it, I would have to pay for prescriptions. It is called the NHS Medical Exemption Certificate. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Do you actually need it to claim them? When my kids were getting free ones all I did was sign the prescription at the pharmacy, no card needed. Have you got the card there? What's it called exactly? Yes, I do need it. Without it, I would have to pay for prescriptions. It is called the NHS Medical Exemption Certificate." Ah, so you hand that in each time? Do you have to or are you just being helpful? Thanks for info btw! | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? " Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme"But that's what I'm getting at mate, this card you refer to doesn't appear to exist! | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Do you actually need it to claim them? When my kids were getting free ones all I did was sign the prescription at the pharmacy, no card needed. Have you got the card there? What's it called exactly? Yes, I do need it. Without it, I would have to pay for prescriptions. It is called the NHS Medical Exemption Certificate. Ah, so you hand that in each time? Do you have to or are you just being helpful? Thanks for info btw! "As I said, if I cannot show my card to the pharmacy, I have to pay. So, no, I am not just being helpful. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
But that's what I'm getting at mate, this card you refer to doesn't appear to exist!"I'm not being contrary here, I'd love to know about this but I've been looking to find it to no avail. Google may be my fiend but it ain't helping on this one! | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Do you actually need it to claim them? When my kids were getting free ones all I did was sign the prescription at the pharmacy, no card needed. Have you got the card there? What's it called exactly? Yes, I do need it. Without it, I would have to pay for prescriptions. It is called the NHS Medical Exemption Certificate. Ah, so you hand that in each time? Do you have to or are you just being helpful? Thanks for info btw!
As I said, if I cannot show my card to the pharmacy, I have to pay.
So, no, I am not just being helpful."Go it, and you are being most helpful here, thanks! | |||
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"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
But that's what I'm getting at mate, this card you refer to doesn't appear to exist!
check again, it does"Give us a clue then, where have you found it? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme"You don't appear to get one if you're on Universal Credit... You can claim help with health costs in the same way as those getting other qualifying benefits, such as income-based Jobseeker's Allowance. You will need to sign the NHS form to say you do not have to pay. This could be a prescription form given to you by your doctor, or a dental treatment form given to you by your dentist's receptionist. If you claim exemption, the healthcare professional will ask to see your Universal Credit award notice to support your claim. This last sentence seems to imply no card. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
But that's what I'm getting at mate, this card you refer to doesn't appear to exist!
check again, it does
Give us a clue then, where have you found it?"try nhsbsa.nhs or just type tax credit exemption | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
You don't appear to get one if you're on Universal Credit...
You can claim help with health costs in the same way as those getting other qualifying benefits, such as income-based Jobseeker's Allowance. You will need to sign the NHS form to say you do not have to pay. This could be a prescription form given to you by your doctor, or a dental treatment form given to you by your dentist's receptionist.
If you claim exemption, the healthcare professional will ask to see your Universal Credit award notice to support your claim.
This last sentence seems to imply no card."it is a card | |||
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"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Do you actually need it to claim them? When my kids were getting free ones all I did was sign the prescription at the pharmacy, no card needed. Have you got the card there? What's it called exactly? Yes, I do need it. Without it, I would have to pay for prescriptions. It is called the NHS Medical Exemption Certificate. Ah, so you hand that in each time? Do you have to or are you just being helpful? Thanks for info btw!
As I said, if I cannot show my card to the pharmacy, I have to pay.
So, no, I am not just being helpful."OK, just catching up on this thread... so where are we up to? Are we suggesting that we give every eligible voter an NHS Medical Exemption Certificate?! One of the big issues with *any* ID system, is that you then need to enforce it and be able to tell what is and what isn't a valid ID. If we are making this as widely usable as possible with existing IDs then that means that people checking at the polling booths need to be able to tell a real from a forged certificate (assuming this is an issue of a magnitude enough to warrant an ID system anyway). I was born in Singapore, my birth certificate was issued by the British consulate over there. Do you know what it looks like? Is it genuine? Basically I think the whole idea is a folly. Unless we issue a specific state-mandated ID card to every citizen (and deal with all the cost and hassle that will involve) then I think this is a futile exercise. -Matt | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
You don't appear to get one if you're on Universal Credit...
You can claim help with health costs in the same way as those getting other qualifying benefits, such as income-based Jobseeker's Allowance. You will need to sign the NHS form to say you do not have to pay. This could be a prescription form given to you by your doctor, or a dental treatment form given to you by your dentist's receptionist.
If you claim exemption, the healthcare professional will ask to see your Universal Credit award notice to support your claim.
This last sentence seems to imply no card."But LIS does have some form of certificate, who knows if it's a card... Depending on your circumstances, you can receive "full help" (HC2 certificate) or "partial help" (HC3 certificate). You will qualify for full help if your income is less than or equal to your requirements, or is greater than your requirements by no more than half the current English prescription charge. If your income exceeds this limit, you may be entitled to partial help. Your certificate will show how much you have to pay towards your health costs. | |||
"One of the big issues with *any* ID system, is that you then need to enforce it and be able to tell what is and what isn't a valid ID. If we are making this as widely usable as possible with existing IDs then that means that people checking at the polling booths need to be able to tell a real from a forged certificate (assuming this is an issue of a magnitude enough to warrant an ID system anyway)." In EE 'Doc' Smith's classic "Lensman" series this was the whole point of the plot, all IDs can be forged, the more important thing that you need ID for, the greater the imoetus to forge it. It is true today. Look at what happened when they made it so that to get a new vehicle registration plate you had to bring the registration document: the criminal fraternity simply broke into a Halfords or some such and nicked the equipment to make their own. And the tens of thousands of blank registration documents vanished so they had to change the style. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
You don't appear to get one if you're on Universal Credit...
You can claim help with health costs in the same way as those getting other qualifying benefits, such as income-based Jobseeker's Allowance. You will need to sign the NHS form to say you do not have to pay. This could be a prescription form given to you by your doctor, or a dental treatment form given to you by your dentist's receptionist.
If you claim exemption, the healthcare professional will ask to see your Universal Credit award notice to support your claim.
This last sentence seems to imply no card."Various cards are available. Mine I have explained. It was awarded to me as I have a long term condition (diabetes). People on a low income can apply for an HC card. Those in receipt of various benefits do not need a card but will be asked by the pharmacy to provide proof. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme"So now that we've thrashed that one out...! It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
So now that we've thrashed that one out...!
It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it."It is all about balance, isn't it? The trial is about trying to cut down on electoral fraud. Remember that London borough? I don't think that most people would have a problem producing some form of ID. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
So now that we've thrashed that one out...!
It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it."so who else wouldn't have some form of ID? something maybe with a NI number on at the address your voting card was sent to? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
So now that we've thrashed that one out...!
It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it.
so who else wouldn't have some form of ID? something maybe with a NI number on at the address your voting card was sent to?"OK, how about an 18 year old? Registered with GP so does exist but no need for medical services for years. Not wanting to drive. Doesn't drink or smoke so doesn't need ID for that. The point is, yes, he or she could get ID, but we're making it harder for them to vote. So, we could argue that fair enough, maybe it shouldn't be easy. But, I postulate that making ID compulsory will reduce voting so it has to be balanced against the level of voter fraud that is believed to exist. Also, I don't really see that any ID other than photo ID has any point to it here. Frankly, if I couldn't produce utility bills, letters from doctors, etc, that would pass muster in this context then I'd need to hang up my computer in shame! I mean, come on, it's not that hard is it? And there's no such thing as free photo ID is there? | |||
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"i think if this has been a country where showing ID is natural i would not have a problem with it.... however in countries where they don't have ID and you need ID to vote, they find that the poorest that don't have the ID... be that passport, or driving license ect....... maybe this would be an interesting start of a discussion as to whether we should have a national id card? but then where would that then leave postal voting?" Or proxy voting? Have people here forgotten about that? | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
So now that we've thrashed that one out...!
It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it.
so who else wouldn't have some form of ID? something maybe with a NI number on at the address your voting card was sent to?
OK, how about an 18 year old?
Registered with GP so does exist but no need for medical services for years. Not wanting to drive. Doesn't drink or smoke so doesn't need ID for that.
The point is, yes, he or she could get ID, but we're making it harder for them to vote.
So, we could argue that fair enough, maybe it shouldn't be easy.
But, I postulate that making ID compulsory will reduce voting so it has to be balanced against the level of voter fraud that is believed to exist.
Also, I don't really see that any ID other than photo ID has any point to it here. Frankly, if I couldn't produce utility bills, letters from doctors, etc, that would pass muster in this context then I'd need to hang up my computer in shame! I mean, come on, it's not that hard is it?
And there's no such thing as free photo ID is there?"Some people may slip through the net but I would think that realistically that would be a very small number. An 18 year old living at home will either be working (in which case most will have some evidence of their identity, unless employed by Dellboy) or will be in receipt of a benefit. On the whole, I think it is a good idea, but the point of a trial is to try. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
So now that we've thrashed that one out...!
It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it.
so who else wouldn't have some form of ID? something maybe with a NI number on at the address your voting card was sent to?
OK, how about an 18 year old?
Registered with GP so does exist but no need for medical services for years. Not wanting to drive. Doesn't drink or smoke so doesn't need ID for that.
The point is, yes, he or she could get ID, but we're making it harder for them to vote.
So, we could argue that fair enough, maybe it shouldn't be easy.
But, I postulate that making ID compulsory will reduce voting so it has to be balanced against the level of voter fraud that is believed to exist.
Also, I don't really see that any ID other than photo ID has any point to it here. Frankly, if I couldn't produce utility bills, letters from doctors, etc, that would pass muster in this context then I'd need to hang up my computer in shame! I mean, come on, it's not that hard is it?
And there's no such thing as free photo ID is there?"Well said. Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt | |||
"OK, how about an 18 year old? Registered with GP so does exist but no need for medical services for years. Not wanting to drive. Doesn't drink or smoke so doesn't need ID for that. The point is, yes, he or she could get ID, but we're making it harder for them to vote. So, we could argue that fair enough, maybe it shouldn't be easy. But, I postulate that making ID compulsory will reduce voting so it has to be balanced against the level of voter fraud that is believed to exist. Also, I don't really see that any ID other than photo ID has any point to it here. Frankly, if I couldn't produce utility bills, letters from doctors, etc, that would pass muster in this context then I'd need to hang up my computer in shame! I mean, come on, it's not that hard is it? And there's no such thing as free photo ID is there? Some people may slip through the net but I would think that realistically that would be a very small number. An 18 year old living at home will either be working (in which case most will have some evidence of their identity, unless employed by Dellboy) or will be in receipt of a benefit. On the whole, I think it is a good idea, but the point of a trial is to try." The aforementioned 18 year old could be at school. | |||
"Do NHS cards still get issued? Haven't seen mine in years. My kids don't have them as far as I know. I'm sure you could ask for one and you'd get it free and don't you get an NHS card if you're on benefits or tax credits? I've checked, they don't get issued. of course they do thats how you get free dental treatment, prescriptions, eye tests etc So the answer to your point is you get said free treatments by.... turning up! and showing your NHS card. If you are entitled to benefits you will have one or can get one Which cards do you mean, I can't find reference to them? It's not your National Insurance number card. You have an NHS number if you've registered with a GP but (as I've quoted above) you don't need to know it to get treatment. Strange. I have an NHS card that entitles me to free prescriptions. Does every registered voter? Dunno why I bother
the point I was trying to make was that you can get that form of ID for free and you will get an NHS card every 6 months if you are on benefits or tax credits under the LIS - low income scheme
So now that we've thrashed that one out...!
It still doesn't cover all those who haven't got ID, and nor will it.
so who else wouldn't have some form of ID? something maybe with a NI number on at the address your voting card was sent to?
OK, how about an 18 year old?
Registered with GP so does exist but no need for medical services for years. Not wanting to drive. Doesn't drink or smoke so doesn't need ID for that.
The point is, yes, he or she could get ID, but we're making it harder for them to vote.
So, we could argue that fair enough, maybe it shouldn't be easy.
But, I postulate that making ID compulsory will reduce voting so it has to be balanced against the level of voter fraud that is believed to exist.
Also, I don't really see that any ID other than photo ID has any point to it here. Frankly, if I couldn't produce utility bills, letters from doctors, etc, that would pass muster in this context then I'd need to hang up my computer in shame! I mean, come on, it's not that hard is it?
And there's no such thing as free photo ID is there?
Well said.
Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access.
In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves.
-Matt"In reality, those most disadvantaged in society are most likely to be able to provide ID. | |||
"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt" In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! | |||
"In reality, those most disadvantaged in society are most likely to be able to provide ID." Not photo ID and, as I and others have suggested above, if it isn't then the ID is worthless for this purpose. | |||
"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! " And don't forget, it's all to tackle a fairly non-existent problem! | |||
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"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! And don't forget, it's all to tackle a fairly non-existent problem! " Slough, Peterborough, Birmingham? It is a problem that requires addressing. | |||
""But wasn't it New Labour who wanted to introduce ID cards?" As beneficiaries of electoral fraud (along with lib-dems), new labour's motivation in wanting to introduce ID cards was hardly out of any desire to clean up the voting system." Can you provide evidence of that, or alternatively, shut the f##k up? | |||
"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! And don't forget, it's all to tackle a fairly non-existent problem! Slough, Peterborough, Birmingham? It is a problem that requires addressing." No it is not. At least, not according to the Electoral Commission that 272 cases reported in 2014. 51% of which showed after investigation to have no fraud involved. I can't spot any of those location in their data, but tbh they may come under other Local Authorities, I don't know enough about those cities to tell. -Matt | |||
"Sorry by utility bills I meant anything that proves you are living at a particular address, that will correspond with the electoral roll.....I've had a heavy night out with friends and family and the vino has impacted upon me somewhat, lol." Firstly, what has been reported by the BBC and ITV. They both say utility bill or passport. Not local government letter, not DWP benefits letter, not photo licence. Therefore I am going to work on the principle that the proposal is for there to be 2 forms of acceptable ID, a utility bill (that's a gas, electric or water bill) or a passport. There can be no doubt that will disenfranchise many and disproportionately effect the poor. That so many seem to see this as a good thing being done for our benefit is really disturbing. Secondly, hotlove quotes omaha about people taking the piss and then says: "Exactly.
You need your ID card to vote in Germany and I'm pretty sure the same applies to most (if not all) other EU countries.
I wonder if the naysayers would still be as vociferous if this had come in the form of an EU directive. Hmmmmm. "I note you fail to mention that everyone over the age of 16 has to carry a German ID card or passport at all times. Now I would describe not mentioning that as taking the piss! I have no problems with having ID cards, nor do I have a problem with having a national DNA data base with 100% registration. I do have a problem with a requirement that means some not all will have to produce ID to vote and that voters will have to either have credit accounts with utility companies or buy a passport in order to exercise their franchise. That so many here cant see the democratic problems these proposals will cause is very disquieting. | |||
"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! And don't forget, it's all to tackle a fairly non-existent problem! Slough, Peterborough, Birmingham? It is a problem that requires addressing. No it is not. At least, not according to the Electoral Commission that 272 cases reported in 2014. 51% of which showed after investigation to have no fraud involved. I can't spot any of those location in their data, but tbh they may come under other Local Authorities, I don't know enough about those cities to tell. -Matt" You don't recall the Birmingham case? Here ya go. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm | |||
"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! And don't forget, it's all to tackle a fairly non-existent problem! Slough, Peterborough, Birmingham? It is a problem that requires addressing. No it is not. At least, not according to the Electoral Commission that 272 cases reported in 2014. 51% of which showed after investigation to have no fraud involved. I can't spot any of those location in their data, but tbh they may come under other Local Authorities, I don't know enough about those cities to tell. -Matt You don't recall the Birmingham case? Here ya go. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm" Nope. I didn't see that. So how does all the talk of voter ID help with postal ballot fraud in the Birmingham case then? It looks like exactly as I said above, trying to implement voter ID would not solve the issue at hand. -Matt | |||
"Generally with security in general (physical, electronic, all the same) you have to weight up the cost vs the benefit. NOTHING is 100% secure. It is just a matter of time and cost. E.g. give me enough time and money and I will steal you the crown jewels. And often the act of attempting to secure something just moves the vulnerable area to somewhere else. E.g. it doesn't matter if you have a 1,000 character password to your phone if I can just hit you with a rubber hose until you give it to me. Or steal the backups from somewhere else easier to access. In this case we CAN make a much, much more secure voting system... but at what cost? Both in terms of financial cost and societal cost. As already pointed out several times before, those that are the most disadvantaged in society are going to be the most put out by these systems and so you naturally will skew the voter population towards the more well-off in society. Then their becomes additional incentives to skew the vote one way or another. And any half-arsed attempt at doing this would just result in inconvenience without actually securing anything. Alas the government has a track record in this stuff, just look at the IP Bill as the most recent example. All they are doing are inconveniencing the general public, but anyone with any true desire to communicate securely can easily side-step any of the measures to do so. And as a side effect all the govt are doing is amassing a large volume of personal data in one place, which just creates a much more valuable target for thieves. -Matt In essence, since any form of non-photo ID is pretty pointless for this and will only have the effect of slowing down and/or increasing the cost of the voting process (given the queues that appear to happen anyway we'd need to increase staff and their training = ££), then in order for it to be fair we'd have to have some form of free photo ID available to all, albeit maybe means tested. And that ID would have to be very non-discrimatory or people wouldn't use it, they'd prefer to give up right to vote so same effect. This really does sound like a great idea until you start to think it through! And don't forget, it's all to tackle a fairly non-existent problem! Slough, Peterborough, Birmingham? It is a problem that requires addressing. No it is not. At least, not according to the Electoral Commission that 272 cases reported in 2014. 51% of which showed after investigation to have no fraud involved. I can't spot any of those location in their data, but tbh they may come under other Local Authorities, I don't know enough about those cities to tell. -Matt You don't recall the Birmingham case? Here ya go. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm Nope. I didn't see that. So how does all the talk of voter ID help with postal ballot fraud in the Birmingham case then? It looks like exactly as I said above, trying to implement voter ID would not solve the issue at hand. -Matt" You are right there. But you might want to read the full Electoral Commission's report leading to the recommendations. The Commission does think it is an issue that needs addressing. http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/electoral-fraud/electoral-fraud-vulnerabilities-review?a=155335 | |||
"The Commission does think it is an issue that needs addressing." The problem is not addressing the issue. It is the method being proposed that is the problem. The fact is the Tories claim to be the party of all while everything they do divides the country, harms the majority, marginalises the poor while benefiting the rich and powerful. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled proposal to remove more people from the electoral roll. | |||
"The Commission does think it is an issue that needs addressing. The problem is not addressing the issue. It is the method being proposed that is the problem. The fact is the Tories claim to be the party of all while everything they do divides the country, harms the majority, marginalises the poor while benefiting the rich and powerful. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled proposal to remove more people from the electoral roll." How so? Do feel free to rant against the Tories. The Electoral Commission is independent. Folk on benefits will certainly be able to provide ID, won't they? Who will be excluded from voting? | |||
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"The Commission does think it is an issue that needs addressing. The problem is not addressing the issue. It is the method being proposed that is the problem. The fact is the Tories claim to be the party of all while everything they do divides the country, harms the majority, marginalises the poor while benefiting the rich and powerful. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled proposal to remove more people from the electoral roll. How so? Do feel free to rant against the Tories. The Electoral Commission is independent. Folk on benefits will certainly be able to provide ID, won't they? Who will be excluded from voting?" Well, as I've answered above, quite a few! | |||
"You are right there. But you might want to read the full Electoral Commission's report leading to the recommendations. The Commission does think it is an issue that needs addressing. http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/electoral-fraud/electoral-fraud-vulnerabilities-review?a=155335" Yes, it does, but it also acknowledges how small an issue it is and it refers to the very points we're making here about the methods used to solove it not causing people do be disenfranchised. | |||
"The Commission does think it is an issue that needs addressing. The problem is not addressing the issue. It is the method being proposed that is the problem. The fact is the Tories claim to be the party of all while everything they do divides the country, harms the majority, marginalises the poor while benefiting the rich and powerful. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled proposal to remove more people from the electoral roll. How so? Do feel free to rant against the Tories. The Electoral Commission is independent. Folk on benefits will certainly be able to provide ID, won't they? Who will be excluded from voting? Well, as I've answered above, quite a few!" Did you have a form of ID when you were 18? | |||
"Did you have a form of ID when you were 18?" I did have a driving licence, yes, but then my family was well enough off that I could afford that. My point, however, is that here on fab most of us will have a range of IDs. I have passport, driving licence, birth certificate (but see my comments above about how easy that is to get!), utility and council tax bills. So, by UK standards, I'm pretty well IDd to the max. I think that the vast majority of fabsters will have some of these as we're online. I think that also clouds our judgement as to other peoples' circumstances. We're in danger of not seeing how it is for them. It's very easy to see 18 year olds, living at home, still at school, not driving, not travelling, and therefore with none of the above IDs. It's also easy to see pensioners (although I do agree that presumably they have some sort of pension book or equivalent) in a similar boat. And not hard to see people living in HMOs etc as adults in the same situation. And these are the ones we can think of, you can be certain that there are others we haven't considered. There are, I believe, people out there who don't have the ID required to let them vote under these proposals. So what do we do about them? Say 'tough shit mate'? Require them to pay for some ID just for this? That would be akin to charging them to vote, which seems wrong to me. Voting is an important right and, I believe, duty. I have never missed a ballot in a range of things, including referendums (four) and elections for parish, district and county councillors as well as to Westminster and the European parliament. So important that we should be extremely careful that our response to (if Matt's figures are correct) an almost negligible level of electoral fraud does not create more problems than it solves. | |||
"Did you have a form of ID when you were 18? I did have a driving licence, yes, but then my family was well enough off that I could afford that. My point, however, is that here on fab most of us will have a range of IDs. I have passport, driving licence, birth certificate (but see my comments above about how easy that is to get!), utility and council tax bills. So, by UK standards, I'm pretty well IDd to the max. I think that the vast majority of fabsters will have some of these as we're online. I think that also clouds our judgement as to other peoples' circumstances. We're in danger of not seeing how it is for them. It's very easy to see 18 year olds, living at home, still at school, not driving, not travelling, and therefore with none of the above IDs. It's also easy to see pensioners (although I do agree that presumably they have some sort of pension book or equivalent) in a similar boat. And not hard to see people living in HMOs etc as adults in the same situation. And these are the ones we can think of, you can be certain that there are others we haven't considered. There are, I believe, people out there who don't have the ID required to let them vote under these proposals. So what do we do about them? Say 'tough shit mate'? Require them to pay for some ID just for this? That would be akin to charging them to vote, which seems wrong to me. Voting is an important right and, I believe, duty. I have never missed a ballot in a range of things, including referendums (four) and elections for parish, district and county councillors as well as to Westminster and the European parliament. So important that we should be extremely careful that our response to (if Matt's figures are correct) an almost negligible level of electoral fraud does not create more problems than it solves. " Your "negligible level" of fraud did lead to a major election in Birmingham being overturned. And I do think most 18 year olds have some form of ID these days. I think the trial (yes, trial) is a damned jolly idea. | |||
"And I do think most 18 year olds have some form of ID these days." Of course most of them do, but that's not the point is it? If we're only bothered about most people then fine, go right ahead, we're only disenfrachising a few people so that OK then! Really? Do you really think it's acceptable because 'most' 18 year olds have ID? And what about the others in society? | |||
"Your "negligible level" of fraud did lead to a major election in Birmingham being overturned." Hang on, didn't we just agree above that this was a postal ballot fraud? If not, OK, I accept the point (and I did say 'if the figures are correct') and maybe it's not negligible. But if it was postal ballot fraud then this ID business we're discussing is irrelevant. | |||
"And I do think most 18 year olds have some form of ID these days. Of course most of them do, but that's not the point is it? If we're only bothered about most people then fine, go right ahead, we're only disenfrachising a few people so that OK then! Really? Do you really think it's acceptable because 'most' 18 year olds have ID? And what about the others in society? " I find it inconceivable that folk would have no way of proving their ID. | |||
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"Just a couple of facts that may be of interest to some... There were 130 allegations of electoral fraud in the 2015 general election. That is 130 out of 54 million voters that is 0.0000002407% of the electorate... 29 Tory MP's are under police investigation for electoral expenses fraud in the same 2015 general election. That's 29 of 330 Tory MP's or 8.78% of all Tory MP's... Now which of these 2 problems do the Tories think requires electoral reform to correct and which have they been attempting to have the courts suppress investigation of? " That would be the overturned Birmingham election then? | |||
"And I do think most 18 year olds have some form of ID these days. Of course most of them do, but that's not the point is it? If we're only bothered about most people then fine, go right ahead, we're only disenfrachising a few people so that OK then! Really? Do you really think it's acceptable because 'most' 18 year olds have ID? And what about the others in society? I find it inconceivable that folk would have no way of proving their ID. " See my comments above about our need to see life how others actually face it! | |||
"Just a couple of facts that may be of interest to some... There were 130 allegations of electoral fraud in the 2015 general election. That is 130 out of 54 million voters that is 0.0000002407% of the electorate... 29 Tory MP's are under police investigation for electoral expenses fraud in the same 2015 general election. That's 29 of 330 Tory MP's or 8.78% of all Tory MP's... Now which of these 2 problems do the Tories think requires electoral reform to correct and which have they been attempting to have the courts suppress investigation of? That would be the overturned Birmingham election then?" Can you just confirm to us please, was the Birmingham one to which you refer a postal ballot fraud issue or not? | |||
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"Just a couple of facts that may be of interest to some... There were 130 allegations of electoral fraud in the 2015 general election. That is 130 out of 54 million voters that is 0.0000002407% of the electorate... 29 Tory MP's are under police investigation for electoral expenses fraud in the same 2015 general election. That's 29 of 330 Tory MP's or 8.78% of all Tory MP's... Now which of these 2 problems do the Tories think requires electoral reform to correct and which have they been attempting to have the courts suppress investigation of? That would be the overturned Birmingham election then? Can you just confirm to us please, was the Birmingham one to which you refer a postal ballot fraud issue or not?" Yes, it was. And, once more, the Electoral Comission has ... Jeez, how many more times. | |||
"Just a couple of facts that may be of interest to some... There were 130 allegations of electoral fraud in the 2015 general election. That is 130 out of 54 million voters that is 0.0000002407% of the electorate... 29 Tory MP's are under police investigation for electoral expenses fraud in the same 2015 general election. That's 29 of 330 Tory MP's or 8.78% of all Tory MP's... Now which of these 2 problems do the Tories think requires electoral reform to correct and which have they been attempting to have the courts suppress investigation of? That would be the overturned Birmingham election then? Can you just confirm to us please, was the Birmingham one to which you refer a postal ballot fraud issue or not? Yes, it was. And, once more, the Electoral Comission has ... Jeez, how many more times." OK, so if it is about postal ballot fraud, and this thread is about polling station ID requirements, what is the relevance of your comments about Birmingham? Jeez, how many more times? | |||
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" I won't even bother to bring up the issue of how that helps prevent postal vote fraud. -Matt Please do, I'm interested to know. Also interested in why presenting ID would not help ensure proper process..." How exactly do you propose to present this ID for a postal vote or proxy vote? Unless we have a state issued mandatory ID card and all the cost and hassle of that, then proposing using something like a utility bill for ID does diddly squat to prevent fraud. All it would do is add hassle to the process and disenfranchise voters. -Matt | |||
"The problem with the changes that have been and are being made is they reduce the number of people able to vote. That cannot be good for representative government." It's probably the majority of people who can't be arsed to vote that are complain Not about having to produce ID anyway. | |||
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"The problem with the changes that have been and are being made is they reduce the number of people able to vote. That cannot be good for representative government. It's probably the majority of people who can't be arsed to vote that are complain Not about having to produce ID anyway." . Most people can't be arsed voting because there all useless cunts.... It's come as a surprise to me that anybody is going to all these lengths to vote twice  | |||
"Most people can't be arsed voting because there all useless cunts..." And most of the cunts are in power because there are so many apathetic pricks who refuse to vote and remove them. | |||
"Most people can't be arsed voting because there all useless cunts... And most of the cunts are in power because there are so many apathetic pricks who refuse to vote and remove them." which useless cunt do you vote for? | |||
"which useless cunt do you vote for?" I'm an active member of the Labour Party so that is a non question for me. Really the question should be if you think they are all useless cunts what are you doing to change politics? Or do you expect those of us who do play an active roll in politics to pander to your wishes without you putting any effort in? | |||
"which useless cunt do you vote for? I'm an active member of the Labour Party so that is a non question for me. Really the question should be if you think they are all useless cunts what are you doing to change politics? Or do you expect those of us who do play an active roll in politics to pander to your wishes without you putting any effort in?" Thats made me laugh
An active member of the Labour party and a non question? I take it you don't actually vote for anyone then? | |||
"which useless cunt do you vote for? I'm an active member of the Labour Party so that is a non question for me. Really the question should be if you think they are all useless cunts what are you doing to change politics? Or do you expect those of us who do play an active roll in politics to pander to your wishes without you putting any effort in?" The Labour Party are doing something to change politics. Currently by making themselves totally unelectable and giving us a one party state for the foreseeable...... but this thread is about if we should show ID to vote. It is required in most democracies and the international bodies that oversee elections have said that without that our system is wide open to corruption....as proved conclusively in Tower Hamlets. | |||
