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Winston Churchill was a traitor
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http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html | |||
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"He said that but not for it not to include the UK. I thought that was common knowledge" Why shouldn't it contain Britain? | |||
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"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP" He was in the conservative party first  | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first "ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism "Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me. | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism "You're not wrong there - the main difference between the fascism of the Third Reich and the communism of the Soviet Union or Mao's China is the colour of the uniform. Otherwise, they are just psychotic abusers of their fellow man, infected with the very worst traits of humanity which are unparalleled in other life forms. In our own society, I have to smile at the irony of the fascists on the hard left who belong to the anti-fascist league. If those people had a sniff of power....infinitely worse than any "street activist" from their opponents. Or, for those who are close to power, the neo-liberal fascism of demagogues such as Gordon Brown, Tony "Messiah" Blair (666) and Peter Mandelson and, fortunately now removed from any proximity to power, the very illiberal and anti-democratic lib-dems. Ain't that right, Herr Farran? | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first "I could be wrong but I've a feeling he was a communist to start with . | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me. "Yet Churchill was the main force against Facism ! | |||
" Yet Churchill was the main force against Facism ! " He was a Liberal and then a Conservative and then NOT a Eurosceptic | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP" Did you really compare Churchill to Mosely? 
I assume you were making another point about Churchill's well known aversion to Eurpope which I missed... | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism "No it doesn't. | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
You're not wrong there - the main difference between the fascism of the Third Reich and the communism of the Soviet Union or Mao's China is the colour of the uniform. Otherwise, they are just psychotic abusers of their fellow man, infected with the very worst traits of humanity which are unparalleled in other life forms.
In our own society, I have to smile at the irony of the fascists on the hard left who belong to the anti-fascist league. If those people had a sniff of power....infinitely worse than any "street activist" from their opponents.
Or, for those who are close to power, the neo-liberal fascism of demagogues such as Gordon Brown, Tony "Messiah" Blair (666) and Peter Mandelson and, fortunately now removed from any proximity to power, the very illiberal and anti-democratic lib-dems.
Ain't that right, Herr Farran?"How would you describe Thatcher's reign? | |||
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"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me. ""As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation's economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence". Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry". The first quote is Hitler. The second quote is Karl Marx. | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP Did you really compare Churchill to Mosely?
I assume you were making another point about Churchill's well known aversion to Eurpope which I missed..."No, quite the opposite. One wanted to be a part of it the other simply wanted to be a sponsor and ally. Churchill wasn't averse to Europe but did not want to be a part of a federal Europe which I think is what you are suggesting from this post/thread | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me.
"As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation's economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence".
Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".
The first quote is Hitler.
The second quote is Karl Marx."Not seen those quoted before but they are quite enlightening , also bear in mind the nazis called themselves national socialists ! It almost doesn't bear thinking about but if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia they could have ended up as Allies ! Now that would have been Scary. ! | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me. "Tell that to Hitler (National Socialist) or Mussolini (who was a high ranking socialist in his early years) | |||
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"Going back to the original post. Churchill made those speeches while the horrors (and causes)of two world wars were still fresh in everybody's memory. However the world and Europe has moved on and what seemed reasonable in the late 40's/early 50's is pretty much irrelevant (and outdated) today. You can never judge the past through 21st century eyes." Do you really think that there is no more hatred anymore and therefore the threat of conflict is impossible? "It couldn't happen now" has been said in error in many places and many times through recent history. | |||
"Going back to the original post. Churchill made those speeches while the horrors (and causes)of two world wars were still fresh in everybody's memory. However the world and Europe has moved on and what seemed reasonable in the late 40's/early 50's is pretty much irrelevant (and outdated) today. You can never judge the past through 21st century eyes. Do you really think that there is no more hatred anymore and therefore the threat of conflict is impossible? "It couldn't happen now" has been said in error in many places and many times through recent history. " There is plenty of scope for conflict at the moment but I don't envisage Merkel's tanks charging through the Ardennes any time soon. With or without a USE. | |||
"He said that but not for it not to include the UK. I thought that was common knowledge" Yes another Churchill quote, "If Britain must chose between Europe and the open sea, she must always chose the open sea". | |||
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"He said that but not for it not to include the UK. I thought that was common knowledge Yes another Churchill quote, "If Britain must chose between Europe and the open sea, she must always chose the open sea". " You missed the end of the quote: "Every time I have to decide between you and Roosevelt, I will always choose Roosevelt." It was apparently said privately and in anger and aimed at de Gaulle as D-Day began. I could not find a reliable source to confirm the quote though. Please do so if you can. I have provided quotes from public, post-war speeches when Britain's relationship with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world was far clearer and when he wasn't shouting at someone that has annoyed the he'll our of him just before one of history's greatest military gambles. I do not think he was a European federalist by any stretch of the imagination, but as I said his views were nuanced but certainly not in any way Eurosceptic. All his post-war public engagement was of a similar tone. "Common knowledge" is not always based in fact. | |||
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"The point of Nazism (National Socialism) was to promise all things to all people. Workers, capitalists, the military. A promise that could not be fulfilled but would deliver power. This required and external and internal enemy to unite against - the Jews. I will explicitly draw parallels to both Brexit and Trump and pretty much all nationalist movements everywhere. To be absolutely clear, voting for Trump or Brexit does NOT make anyone a Nazi or anything even vaguely similar. However, both movements have promised that everything would be wonderful once they were in power. Very vague plans for how it would be achieved. All problems are due to other people; Mexicans, Muslims or Europeans. History repeats itself and the UK is not immune to revolution and extremism. We've just been remarkably lucky so far. Merkel with Panzers is less likely than Trump with nukes at the moment. "May you live in interesting times." That is a Chinese curse "You completely misunderstand Brexit and Trump, it was nothing to do with what people were promised, people are fed up of promises. It was the chance for people to tell the political establishment thdt they are sick of broken promises and not being listened to. It was the people saying it is time for things to change and anyone who can't see that things do need to change is frankly part of the problem | |||
"He said that but not for it not to include the UK. I thought that was common knowledge Yes another Churchill quote, "If Britain must chose between Europe and the open sea, she must always chose the open sea". You missed the end of the quote: "Every time I have to decide between you and Roosevelt, I will always choose Roosevelt." It was apparently said privately and in anger and aimed at de Gaulle as D-Day began. I could not find a reliable source to confirm the quote though. Please do so if you can. I have provided quotes from public, post-war speeches when Britain's relationship with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world was far clearer and when he wasn't shouting at someone that has annoyed the he'll our of him just before one of history's greatest military gambles. I do not think he was a European federalist by any stretch of the imagination, but as I said his views were nuanced but certainly not in any way Eurosceptic. All his post-war public engagement was of a similar tone. "Common knowledge" is not always based in fact." The speech where he described a 'Kind of United States of Europe' was made in Berlin in 1946 - not that long after WW2. In the same year he also made a speech where he said "we are with Europe but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised". He also, as leader of the Conservative Party, in 1950, opposed the UK applying to join the ECSC, the pre-cursed to the EU. | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism "Nazism and Fascism, whilst similar are not the same ideology. It is no secret that Hitler borrowed ideas from Marx and socialist thinkers as well as others, such as Neitzche. Let us not forget that "National Socialism" had a very strong Nationalist element. Just because someone has cherry picked ideas from something, does not make them the same. By your reasoning, everyone who wanted an NHS would be a Communist. | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me.
"As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation's economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence".
Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".
The first quote is Hitler.
The second quote is Karl Marx."Oooo look, a lack of context... Marx wrote an entire volume on the emancipation of Jews (mostly from their subjugation by Prussia, but also talks of France too). In a nutshell, his argument was thus: That Jews (and you could apply this to any other group that doesn't follow the "state religion"), cannot be emancipated in a Christian state, because the very existence of Christianity as the state sponsored religion, by its nature, subjigates other religions. Therefore, the only state in which equality could be achieved is a secular one. | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me.
"As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation's economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence".
Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".
The first quote is Hitler.
The second quote is Karl Marx.
Oooo look, a lack of context...
Marx wrote an entire volume on the emancipation of Jews (mostly from their subjugation by Prussia, but also talks of France too). In a nutshell, his argument was thus: That Jews (and you could apply this to any other group that doesn't follow the "state religion"), cannot be emancipated in a Christian state, because the very existence of Christianity as the state sponsored religion, by its nature, subjigates other religions.
Therefore, the only state in which equality could be achieved is a secular one. "And is this what you believe? Although wasn't Mein Kampf along very similar lines? So basically what you're saying is that Marx, a socialist, dedicated a whole book to preaching intolerance in society...... | |||
"You completely misunderstand Brexit and Trump, it was nothing to do with what people were promised, people are fed up of promises. It was the chance for people to tell the political establishment thdt they are sick of broken promises and not being listened to. It was the people saying it is time for things to change and anyone who can't see that things do need to change is frankly part of the problem" So then they did not vote for anything that Trump has states he will do and possibly nobody actually voted to leave Europe. Both votes were actually against everything that currently exists? | |||
"I do not think he was a European federalist by any stretch of the imagination, but as I said his views were nuanced but certainly not in any way Eurosceptic. All his post-war public engagement was of a similar tone. "Common knowledge" is not always based in fact. The speech where he described a 'Kind of United States of Europe' was made in Berlin in 1946 - not that long after WW2. In the same year he also made a speech where he said "we are with Europe but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised". He also, as leader of the Conservative Party, in 1950, opposed the UK applying to join the ECSC, the pre-cursed to the EU." I'll leave the part where I say that his views were nuanced because the relationship is not as simple as the referendum question implies. I am not taking any single statement or position in isolation. They are all pertinent to their context at any given time and the deal available. My main point is that he was not a Eurosceptic and much of what he said would have led to outrage and condemnation from the Brexit side during the referendum campaign and now. Have a read through this article, with references, and see if his position was clearly for the UK to be outside any form of European Union: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-173/churchill-s-europe For the record the ECSC contained anti-trust and competition regulations that precluded subsidies pouring into the state owned British industries: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/Treaty%20constituting%20the%20European%20Coal%20and%20Steel%20Community.pdf | |||
"Oswald Moseley was all for a united states of Europe though, you know, the well known fascist and Labour MP He was in the conservative party first
ye then went round the bleedin twist, became a socialist and then a fascist, which as I've pointed out before is where fascism and fascists come from, socialism
Conservative to fascist seems like quite a natural progression to me.
"As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation's economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence".
Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".
The first quote is Hitler.
The second quote is Karl Marx.
Oooo look, a lack of context...
Marx wrote an entire volume on the emancipation of Jews (mostly from their subjugation by Prussia, but also talks of France too). In a nutshell, his argument was thus: That Jews (and you could apply this to any other group that doesn't follow the "state religion"), cannot be emancipated in a Christian state, because the very existence of Christianity as the state sponsored religion, by its nature, subjigates other religions.
Therefore, the only state in which equality could be achieved is a secular one.
And is this what you believe?
Although wasn't Mein Kampf along very similar lines?
So basically what you're saying is that Marx, a socialist, dedicated a whole book to preaching intolerance in society......"No. Marx (of Jewish ancestry) wrote an entire volume on state persecution of Jews. His conclusion was that only a secular state would not inherently favour one religion. On that last sentence, I agree. He went on to say that all religion leads to persecution of others, to true emancipation lies in the casting aside of religious belief. Hitler favoured Catholicism as the state religion. | |||
"You completely misunderstand Brexit and Trump, it was nothing to do with what people were promised, people are fed up of promises. It was the chance for people to tell the political establishment thdt they are sick of broken promises and not being listened to. It was the people saying it is time for things to change and anyone who can't see that things do need to change is frankly part of the problem So then they did not vote for anything that Trump has states he will do and possibly nobody actually voted to leave Europe. Both votes were actually against everything that currently exists? "pretty much yes. If Clinton couldn't beat Trump she wouldn't have beaten Homer Simpson. It was a vote for anybody but the establishment. And nobody has voted to leave Europe, it was a vote to kick the people in the teeth who do not listen and think they know best | |||
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" pretty much yes. If Clinton couldn't beat Trump she wouldn't have beaten Homer Simpson. It was a vote for anybody but the establishment. And nobody has voted to leave Europe, it was a vote to kick the people in the teeth who do not listen and think they know best" So if the result of this is increasing intolerance of "the other" and economic hardship in the short to medium term, then what's the benefit? | |||
"The EU is not Europe and never will be" OK. What does that mean? | |||
" pretty much yes. If Clinton couldn't beat Trump she wouldn't have beaten Homer Simpson. It was a vote for anybody but the establishment. And nobody has voted to leave Europe, it was a vote to kick the people in the teeth who do not listen and think they know best So if the result of this is increasing intolerance of "the other" and economic hardship in the short to medium term, then what's the benefit?" what do you mean, in the short to medium term? A lot of people have been living with economic hardship for years and things just continue to get worse. What world are you living in? The benefit is that governments and businesses will hopefully now start to look at the way things are run, try to improve peoples lives and address the imbalance in earnings and in society. | |||
"The EU is not Europe and never will be OK. What does that mean?" It means that Europe is a continent of wonderful, beautiful individual countries rich in history and traditions that should be celebrated and preserved. The EU is a cabal of idiots | |||
" So if the result of this is increasing intolerance of "the other" and economic hardship in the short to medium term, then what's the benefit? what do you mean, in the short to medium term? A lot of people have been living with economic hardship for years and things just continue to get worse. What world are you living in? The benefit is that governments and businesses will hopefully now start to look at the way things are run, try to improve peoples lives and address the imbalance in earnings and in society." You didn't say if the willingness to "say what you think" about people who are different is a good thing. Less acceptance of the other. Blaming them for problems that have been created at our own hands. I accept that there are minority groups who are closed minded and intolerant but the that doesn't mean that it alright to generalise. The world I live in is still one of the wealthiest and safest on the planet and the history of humanity. This is objectively true. I understand people want more and better. I understand that the distribution of wealth is grossly unfair. Leaving the EU will not improve this situation. From what you've written you don't think so either. You just hope that "something" changes. What's the mechanism? There are 10 years of Brexit negotiations. Everything else that you hope for, that we all hope for, is just going to be a distraction from that. What's responsible for the disparities in wealth? The huge power of globalised companies exploitating the differences between companies to minimise their contribution to them. This is everything from oil to technology. Controlling this requires international cooperation and coordination of tax and enforcement. We are stepping away from that. We are joining the race to reduce our corporation tax and give large companies sweetheart deals to invest here. This country becomes more corrupt than the EU, not better than them. How could we be a more prosperous country? Education more than anything else. Investing in infrastructure and affordable housing. We've been free to do this forever and failed as a country. Has that changed? Will it? If you have an idea as to the mechanism that will improve the situation other than hope then please share. | |||
