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No sweetheart deal from Germany
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
We often hear from some forumites on here how Germany will be bending over backwards to do a deal with the UK and how important we are to them, well the latest polling might bring them a little closer to reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/germans-want-merkel-to-take-tough-line-with-uk-over-brexit-poll-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messaging
Here is the link, but as so many say they don't read links but continue to comment on threads I had better post some of the interesting and relevant passages below:
Fifty-eight percent of the German public think Berlin should not be open to compromise with Britain over its EU departure and instead think Merkel should take a firm negotiating position, the Körber Foundation poll found.
There was particular backing for Germany to take a hardline approach with the UK among supporters of Merkel’s own CDU party, with 65% of them saying she should not give way. Support for a compromise deal was strongest among the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and leftwing parties, the survey found.
Indeed, relations with the UK were regarded as a top German foreign policy priority by only 5% of those surveyed. Only 5% said they regarded the UK as Germany’s most important or second most important partner, with 60% citing France and the same number the US.
The survey, undertaken in October, also found that 67% of Germans believed the Brexit vote had reduced EU cohesion among remaining members of the EU, making them feel the bloc is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaking at the unveiling of the survey, Paolo Gentiloni, the Italian foreign minister, argued that Brexit represented a wake-up call for the whole of the EU. He emphasised that the EU’s position that the free movement of citizens is the price for access to the single market was non-negotiable.
The survey made clear the extent to which Germans see the EU in a different light from many Britons, with 79% of respondents saying they regarded the EU as a project for peace and 75% believing that it protected individual freedom. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We often hear from some forumites on here how Germany will be bending over backwards to do a deal with the UK and how important we are to them, well the latest polling might bring them a little closer to reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/germans-want-merkel-to-take-tough-line-with-uk-over-brexit-poll-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messaging
Here is the link, but as so many say they don't read links but continue to comment on threads I had better post some of the interesting and relevant passages below:
Fifty-eight percent of the German public think Berlin should not be open to compromise with Britain over its EU departure and instead think Merkel should take a firm negotiating position, the Körber Foundation poll found.
There was particular backing for Germany to take a hardline approach with the UK among supporters of Merkel’s own CDU party, with 65% of them saying she should not give way. Support for a compromise deal was strongest among the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and leftwing parties, the survey found.
Indeed, relations with the UK were regarded as a top German foreign policy priority by only 5% of those surveyed. Only 5% said they regarded the UK as Germany’s most important or second most important partner, with 60% citing France and the same number the US.
The survey, undertaken in October, also found that 67% of Germans believed the Brexit vote had reduced EU cohesion among remaining members of the EU, making them feel the bloc is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaking at the unveiling of the survey, Paolo Gentiloni, the Italian foreign minister, argued that Brexit represented a wake-up call for the whole of the EU. He emphasised that the EU’s position that the free movement of citizens is the price for access to the single market was non-negotiable.
The survey made clear the extent to which Germans see the EU in a different light from many Britons, with 79% of respondents saying they regarded the EU as a project for peace and 75% believing that it protected individual freedom."
and 50% think leather shorts look good on men.
What did the business leaders of Bavaria have to say? |
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"We often hear from some forumites on here how Germany will be bending over backwards to do a deal with the UK and how important we are to them, well the latest polling might bring them a little closer to reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/germans-want-merkel-to-take-tough-line-with-uk-over-brexit-poll-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messaging
Here is the link, but as so many say they don't read links but continue to comment on threads I had better post some of the interesting and relevant passages below:
Fifty-eight percent of the German public think Berlin should not be open to compromise with Britain over its EU departure and instead think Merkel should take a firm negotiating position, the Körber Foundation poll found.
There was particular backing for Germany to take a hardline approach with the UK among supporters of Merkel’s own CDU party, with 65% of them saying she should not give way. Support for a compromise deal was strongest among the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and leftwing parties, the survey found.
Indeed, relations with the UK were regarded as a top German foreign policy priority by only 5% of those surveyed. Only 5% said they regarded the UK as Germany’s most important or second most important partner, with 60% citing France and the same number the US.
The survey, undertaken in October, also found that 67% of Germans believed the Brexit vote had reduced EU cohesion among remaining members of the EU, making them feel the bloc is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaking at the unveiling of the survey, Paolo Gentiloni, the Italian foreign minister, argued that Brexit represented a wake-up call for the whole of the EU. He emphasised that the EU’s position that the free movement of citizens is the price for access to the single market was non-negotiable.
The survey made clear the extent to which Germans see the EU in a different light from many Britons, with 79% of respondents saying they regarded the EU as a project for peace and 75% believing that it protected individual freedom.
and 50% think leather shorts look good on men.
What did the business leaders of Bavaria have to say?"
Apparently socks look good with sandals too if you ask the average German.
On the business leaders it appears major German industry leaders such as BMW, Mercedes, Audi and VW are lobbying Merkel to give Britain a good Brexit deal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Op instead of trawling the internet for shite, why not listen to what someone like Ilse Aigner has to say on the matter? And post what she has to say? And consider that Bavaria has a bigger economy than 20 of the EU countries |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And so the negotiating positions begin.
And do you really have any faith left in polls?
73% of cat owners say ..."
(Of the 13 cat owners who were asked) |
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"I happened to see a poll in the daily mirror that said support for brexit hadn't changed despite the poll showing people thought we'd be worse off?.
"
Speaking personally for myself the more the establishment and the media, corrupt big business and bankers go against Brexit then the more it strengthens my resolve to push for Leave. I think the same can be said for many Leave voters as they see democracy being trashed before their eyes. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I happened to see a poll in the daily mirror that said support for brexit hadn't changed despite the poll showing people thought we'd be worse off?.
Speaking personally for myself the more the establishment and the media, corrupt big business and bankers go against Brexit then the more it strengthens my resolve to push for Leave. I think the same can be said for many Leave voters as they see democracy being trashed before their eyes. "
I personally think in the long run we'll be financially better off but you're right, for most it has gone beyond that now, money is not so important, people see a bigger issue here and they are angry |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And so the negotiating positions begin.
And do you really have any faith left in polls?
73% of cat owners say ...
(Of the 13 cat owners who were asked)"
Quite. I think we have had quite enough polls.
When did your cat last answer a poll? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And so the negotiating positions begin.
And do you really have any faith left in polls?
73% of cat owners say ...
(Of the 13 cat owners who were asked)
Quite. I think we have had quite enough polls.
When did your cat last answer a poll?"
just before the referendum.
.
well, he might as well have done  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And so the negotiating positions begin.
And do you really have any faith left in polls?
73% of cat owners say ...
(Of the 13 cat owners who were asked)"
Can't believe I'm saying this but I agree.
Polls are only useful if they are able to get an honest answer from a significant number of the population or whichever demographic is making a decision.
If the poll reached up to 70% of the population then fair enough, might be difficult. But then given businesses will lobby the German parliament it will come to the desire of the people vs the desire of business.
And how the German's decide between those, if they need to, will come down to next years elections. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And so the negotiating positions begin.
And do you really have any faith left in polls?
73% of cat owners say ...
(Of the 13 cat owners who were asked)
Can't believe I'm saying this but I agree.
Polls are only useful if they are able to get an honest answer from a significant number of the population or whichever demographic is making a decision.
If the poll reached up to 70% of the population then fair enough, might be difficult. But then given businesses will lobby the German parliament it will come to the desire of the people vs the desire of business.
And how the German's decide between those, if they need to, will come down to next years elections. "
.
Business always trumps people  .
Hence the brexit dilemma |
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"We often hear from some forumites on here how Germany will be bending over backwards to do a deal with the UK and how important we are to them, well the latest polling might bring them a little closer to reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/germans-want-merkel-to-take-tough-line-with-uk-over-brexit-poll-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messaging
Here is the link, but as so many say they don't read links but continue to comment on threads I had better post some of the interesting and relevant passages below:
Fifty-eight percent of the German public think Berlin should not be open to compromise with Britain over its EU departure and instead think Merkel should take a firm negotiating position, the Körber Foundation poll found.
There was particular backing for Germany to take a hardline approach with the UK among supporters of Merkel’s own CDU party, with 65% of them saying she should not give way. Support for a compromise deal was strongest among the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and leftwing parties, the survey found.
Indeed, relations with the UK were regarded as a top German foreign policy priority by only 5% of those surveyed. Only 5% said they regarded the UK as Germany’s most important or second most important partner, with 60% citing France and the same number the US.
The survey, undertaken in October, also found that 67% of Germans believed the Brexit vote had reduced EU cohesion among remaining members of the EU, making them feel the bloc is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaking at the unveiling of the survey, Paolo Gentiloni, the Italian foreign minister, argued that Brexit represented a wake-up call for the whole of the EU. He emphasised that the EU’s position that the free movement of citizens is the price for access to the single market was non-negotiable.
The survey made clear the extent to which Germans see the EU in a different light from many Britons, with 79% of respondents saying they regarded the EU as a project for peace and 75% believing that it protected individual freedom."
I suppose its a good job we wont be negotiating with the public then actually its looking likely we wont be dealing with merkel either and of course the germans love the eu its made them amongst the richest in europe |
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"We often hear from some forumites on here how Germany will be bending over backwards to do a deal with the UK and how important we are to them, well the latest polling might bring them a little closer to reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/germans-want-merkel-to-take-tough-line-with-uk-over-brexit-poll-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messaging
Here is the link, but as so many say they don't read links but continue to comment on threads I had better post some of the interesting and relevant passages below:
Fifty-eight percent of the German public think Berlin should not be open to compromise with Britain over its EU departure and instead think Merkel should take a firm negotiating position, the Körber Foundation poll found.
There was particular backing for Germany to take a hardline approach with the UK among supporters of Merkel’s own CDU party, with 65% of them saying she should not give way. Support for a compromise deal was strongest among the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and leftwing parties, the survey found.
Indeed, relations with the UK were regarded as a top German foreign policy priority by only 5% of those surveyed. Only 5% said they regarded the UK as Germany’s most important or second most important partner, with 60% citing France and the same number the US.
The survey, undertaken in October, also found that 67% of Germans believed the Brexit vote had reduced EU cohesion among remaining members of the EU, making them feel the bloc is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaking at the unveiling of the survey, Paolo Gentiloni, the Italian foreign minister, argued that Brexit represented a wake-up call for the whole of the EU. He emphasised that the EU’s position that the free movement of citizens is the price for access to the single market was non-negotiable.
The survey made clear the extent to which Germans see the EU in a different light from many Britons, with 79% of respondents saying they regarded the EU as a project for peace and 75% believing that it protected individual freedom."
Who did the survey and is there any reason to believe it is accurate. Surveys are becoming a farce .
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either. |
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
Oh so you guys don't like what the German people are saying and think we should listen to German Business instead?
How about the Federation of German Industry, the BDI?:
Markus Kerber, the director-general of the BDI, told the BBC Today programme on Thursday: “If British decision makers look very hard at what it is that they want, and what it will be that they get, then there is no other option than the hard Brexit.”
His comments come as divisions emerge in the British government over what sort of trade relations the UK should be seeking in the negotiations on the UK’s exit from the EU, with some ministers arguing it is critical to maintain access to the single market
However Mr Kerber said: “It is better to have a hard Brexit that works than to have a fudge in the middle that may have to be renegotiated and doesn’t politically work and you have uncertainty lingering on.”
Mr Kerber acknowledged the UK was a key market for German industry, taking 7.5 per cent of German exports. But he made clear the EU and Germany would not give the UK a preferential trade deal.
“Well 7.5 per cent is a big number but 92.5 per cent goes somewhere else. The vast majority goes to other European countries. So, as much as we would like to uphold our very good relations with British customers, it is extremely important for us not to alienate other European markets.”
He also warned that “the political ill will in Europe is much, much bigger than the economic rationality”, alluding to the anger felt in EU capitals that the UK is now quitting the bloc having been a champion of the single market project and one of the strongest supporters of enlarging EU membership.
https://www.ft.com/content/20ba2488-861e-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6
But this all comes back to a key question that no Brexiter on here has yet managed to answer.
If you are willing to sacrifice GDP for your principles, why do you imagine that Europe wont sacrifice GDP for theirs? |
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"Op instead of trawling the internet for shite, why not listen to what someone like Ilse Aigner has to say on the matter? And post what she has to say? And consider that Bavaria has a bigger economy than 20 of the EU countries"
Goodness only knows where NRW would rank then? |
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"
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either. "
I don't know where people keep getting this silly idea that German industry consists solely of 3 car manufacturers or that their continued trading is solely dependent on one export market? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh so you guys don't like what the German people are saying and think we should listen to German Business instead?
How about the Federation of German Industry, the BDI?:
Markus Kerber, the director-general of the BDI, told the BBC Today programme on Thursday: “If British decision makers look very hard at what it is that they want, and what it will be that they get, then there is no other option than the hard Brexit.”
His comments come as divisions emerge in the British government over what sort of trade relations the UK should be seeking in the negotiations on the UK’s exit from the EU, with some ministers arguing it is critical to maintain access to the single market
However Mr Kerber said: “It is better to have a hard Brexit that works than to have a fudge in the middle that may have to be renegotiated and doesn’t politically work and you have uncertainty lingering on.”
Mr Kerber acknowledged the UK was a key market for German industry, taking 7.5 per cent of German exports. But he made clear the EU and Germany would not give the UK a preferential trade deal.
“Well 7.5 per cent is a big number but 92.5 per cent goes somewhere else. The vast majority goes to other European countries. So, as much as we would like to uphold our very good relations with British customers, it is extremely important for us not to alienate other European markets.”
He also warned that “the political ill will in Europe is much, much bigger than the economic rationality”, alluding to the anger felt in EU capitals that the UK is now quitting the bloc having been a champion of the single market project and one of the strongest supporters of enlarging EU membership.
https://www.ft.com/content/20ba2488-861e-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6
But this all comes back to a key question that no Brexiter on here has yet managed to answer.
If you are willing to sacrifice GDP for your principles, why do you imagine that Europe wont sacrifice GDP for theirs? "
well apart from the fact that they don't have any, they can't afford to, politically, or with an unemployment rate twice that of the UK, economically |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either.
I don't know where people keep getting this silly idea that German industry consists solely of 3 car manufacturers or that their continued trading is solely dependent on one export market?"
Well there are at least 4 for a start but they don't, they are just a well known example |
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"
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either.
I don't know where people keep getting this silly idea that German industry consists solely of 3 car manufacturers or that their continued trading is solely dependent on one export market?
Well there are at least 4 for a start but they don't, they are just a well known example"
So when does being a well known example equate to being an entire trading block?, or do you think the boards of companies in banking (particularly banking) and insurance and pharmaceuticals and chemicals and FMCG and tech might sit down and not see an opportunity to knock out HSBC and AZ and Ineos and Sage and Bat and Aviva from their markets for the small sacrifice of a few beemer sales?, you could not see that playing out? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either.
I don't know where people keep getting this silly idea that German industry consists solely of 3 car manufacturers or that their continued trading is solely dependent on one export market?
Well there are at least 4 for a start but they don't, they are just a well known example
So when does being a well known example equate to being an entire trading block?, or do you think the boards of companies in banking (particularly banking) and insurance and pharmaceuticals and chemicals and FMCG and tech might sit down and not see an opportunity to knock out HSBC and AZ and Ineos and Sage and Bat and Aviva from their markets for the small sacrifice of a few beemer sales?, you could not see that playing out?"
No not at all. And neither can Ilse Aigner obviously |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"We often hear from some forumites on here how Germany will be bending over backwards to do a deal with the UK and how important we are to them, well the latest polling might bring them a little closer to reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/germans-want-merkel-to-take-tough-line-with-uk-over-brexit-poll-finds?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messaging
Here is the link, but as so many say they don't read links but continue to comment on threads I had better post some of the interesting and relevant passages below:
Fifty-eight percent of the German public think Berlin should not be open to compromise with Britain over its EU departure and instead think Merkel should take a firm negotiating position, the Körber Foundation poll found.
There was particular backing for Germany to take a hardline approach with the UK among supporters of Merkel’s own CDU party, with 65% of them saying she should not give way. Support for a compromise deal was strongest among the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and leftwing parties, the survey found.
Indeed, relations with the UK were regarded as a top German foreign policy priority by only 5% of those surveyed. Only 5% said they regarded the UK as Germany’s most important or second most important partner, with 60% citing France and the same number the US.
The survey, undertaken in October, also found that 67% of Germans believed the Brexit vote had reduced EU cohesion among remaining members of the EU, making them feel the bloc is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaking at the unveiling of the survey, Paolo Gentiloni, the Italian foreign minister, argued that Brexit represented a wake-up call for the whole of the EU. He emphasised that the EU’s position that the free movement of citizens is the price for access to the single market was non-negotiable.
The survey made clear the extent to which Germans see the EU in a different light from many Britons, with 79% of respondents saying they regarded the EU as a project for peace and 75% believing that it protected individual freedom."
REALLY SURPRISED YOU DIDN'T REPORT THIS, FROM YOUR FAVOURITE NEWSPAPER (THE GUARDIAN), ON 28.11.16
"Scepticism about a brexit apocalypse looks increasingly justified"
In the months leading up to the EU referendum in June, George Osborne predicted dire consequences for the UK economy in the event of a leave vote.
Osborne’s belief that voters would be swayed by fears of recession meant Christine Lagarde (IMF) and Angel Gurría (OECD) popped up regularly during the campaign to support Osborne's claims.
Those who voted to leave the EU appeared sceptical about the forecasts produced by the IMF, the OECD, the Treasury and the Bank of England.
That scepticism has looked increasingly justified in the months since the referendum.
The first prediction to go awry was that the economy would plunge into instant recession.
It didn’t.
When the economy showed signs of resilience, there was a second prediction: the unexpected strength was driven by consumer spending and a different picture would be painted when figures for investment came in. Figures for investment were published last week.
It was up in the third quarter.
The IMF and the OECD have been forced to revise up their growth forecasts for 2016.
The OECD should not be surprised if it is the target for the old joke: there are three sorts of economists – the ones who can count and the ones who can’t. |
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"
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either.
I don't know where people keep getting this silly idea that German industry consists solely of 3 car manufacturers or that their continued trading is solely dependent on one export market?
Well there are at least 4 for a start but they don't, they are just a well known example
So when does being a well known example equate to being an entire trading block?, or do you think the boards of companies in banking (particularly banking) and insurance and pharmaceuticals and chemicals and FMCG and tech might sit down and not see an opportunity to knock out HSBC and AZ and Ineos and Sage and Bat and Aviva from their markets for the small sacrifice of a few beemer sales?, you could not see that playing out?
No not at all. And neither can Ilse Aigner obviously"
You think a regional minister dictates EU policy? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
We are backing a winner. The German motor industry needs us and the French recognise that GCHQ at Cheltenham has an intelligence facility which helps protect the whole of Europe and is unmatched anywhere in the Continent.
Just ignore this poll and negotiate the best deal for the Uk. We will achieve closed borders and a frèe trade agreement and have no need to adhere to EU law either.
I don't know where people keep getting this silly idea that German industry consists solely of 3 car manufacturers or that their continued trading is solely dependent on one export market?
Well there are at least 4 for a start but they don't, they are just a well known example
So when does being a well known example equate to being an entire trading block?, or do you think the boards of companies in banking (particularly banking) and insurance and pharmaceuticals and chemicals and FMCG and tech might sit down and not see an opportunity to knock out HSBC and AZ and Ineos and Sage and Bat and Aviva from their markets for the small sacrifice of a few beemer sales?, you could not see that playing out?
No not at all. And neither can Ilse Aigner obviously
You think a regional minister dictates EU policy?"
no. I think she is a voice for business. Who do you think dictates EU policy? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
You think a regional minister dictates EU policy?
no. I think she is a voice for business. Who do you think dictates EU policy?
Do you think BDI is a voice for business? "
Let's have a poll on it.
Shall we include cats? We could have a pre-poll on that, too. |
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