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next EU crisis

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

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By *obka3Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

As much as I dislike the headless rush to a superstate I'm not sure the collapse of the EU would be in our best interests, but if it did implode and then reformed as a common trading area,perhaps called the common market then maybe we could be part of it, membership restricted to financially prudent countries, it wouldnt need a parliament or loads of presidents

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"As much as I dislike the headless rush to a superstate I'm not sure the collapse of the EU would be in our best interests, but if it did implode and then reformed as a common trading area,perhaps called the common market then maybe we could be part of it, membership restricted to financially prudent countries, it wouldnt need a parliament or loads of presidents "

This.

A real six thumber.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Yes the polls are not looking good for Renzi. Should he lose (which is probable) the markets will take a hammering on Monday morning.

Then let's see what happens in France in the spring. It will almost certainly be a straight fight between Fillon (right wing Thatcherite) and Le Penn (right wing nationalist and eurosceptic) Hollande may not even get into the first round as many in his party are looking to ditch him before the vote. Either way, the socialists are fucked in France.

Then in September we will see how Mama Merkel gets on.

Her CDU/CSU alliance are haemorrhaging votes on a biblical scale to AFD. A party only around five years old who polled less than 5% last time, but are now polling in the low/mid 20's and even knocked Merkels party into third place in her home state a few months ago.

The current "grand coalition" of Merkels party with the centre left SPD is almost certain to collapse if Schulz gets the SPD leadership. They hate each other so it is unlikely that they will be able to govern together.

It is going to be a very interesting few months ahead.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

This.

A real six thumber."

you having a 3sum at this time of day?

but that sounds good to us too

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

[Removed by poster at 29/11/16 09:29:13]

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

With all the talk about Italy the Austrian presidential election this Sunday has dropped under the radar.

One of the main candidates has promised the Austrians an in/out referendum if he wins.

Sounds fun.

In March there is also a general election in Holland and it is neck and neck in the polls between Rutte's VVD and Wilders PVV.

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

I think all this is what Chairman May is praying for. A year of political unrest and change in the rest of Europe, coupled with stronger links with the USA, will certainly be to our advantage

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Yes I think there will be a lot of changes in the next months.

Like I said a few months ago when everyone was quoting what Merkel, Hollande, Renzi, Rutte, Schulz, et al were saying about Brexit. I pointed out that many of them will not even be involved in the negotiations.

Schulz has now jumped ship (before he was pushed) Hollande is political toast, Merkel and Rutte are, at least, on thin ice, and Renzi could be gone by Monday morning.

So much for all the posturing of the summer.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho.."

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. "

and the collapse of the EU would be whose fault?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face.

and the collapse of the EU would be whose fault?"

its a moot point about who's fault it is..

if it where to happen it would be a mess..

standing pointing a finger as the ship runs aground on some rocky outcrop and puts us all in a mess may satisfy some simplistic urge to gloat but only makes one look silly..

and you may miss the last liferaft too..

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. "

Good Lord - "I don't know how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse" - did you really just say that?!!!

For one that revels in any kind of downside to the UK economy, puts everything bad down to Brexit, anything good to 'Brexit hasn't happened yet', and is practically trying single-handed to will the UK economy into free-fall in order to say "I told you so" - relishing the thought of a wholesale collapse in the UK economy - Pot, Kettle and Black certainly springs to mind.

Mind you - if the EU did collapse it would certainly show it up to be the fucked-up institution you say it isn't, and prove the majority who voted leave not to be the stupid thickos you say they are....

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face.

and the collapse of the EU would be whose fault?

its a moot point about who's fault it is..

if it where to happen it would be a mess..

standing pointing a finger as the ship runs aground on some rocky outcrop and puts us all in a mess may satisfy some simplistic urge to gloat but only makes one look silly..

and you may miss the last liferaft too..

its not a moot point at all. The EU still has a chance to avoid the rocks, but will it? Will it admit its got things wrong and change? I doubt it

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face.

and the collapse of the EU would be whose fault?

its a moot point about who's fault it is..

if it where to happen it would be a mess..

standing pointing a finger as the ship runs aground on some rocky outcrop and puts us all in a mess may satisfy some simplistic urge to gloat but only makes one look silly..

and you may miss the last liferaft too..

its not a moot point at all. The EU still has a chance to avoid the rocks, but will it? Will it admit its got things wrong and change? I doubt it"

well its been said with whats coming possibly on the elections front that it may do so or be in a position where to not do so it does crash..

whether pragmatism and the reality kicks arses, who knows..

thought it was telling, even as a remainer that the reaction from the hierarchy in Europe on how we voted was one of surprise and shock with some..

said then that it looked like they were not being told the reality within different countries or knew and were a bit arrogant over the outcome..

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

I don't think even the most hard line Brexiter wants to see the total collapse of Europe. However something does need to change and it has to be a big change.

The EU has had too many chances to reform and it hasn't taken one of them. The only answer, time and time again, is more of the same.

Meanwhile Greece sinks lower and lower into poverty. The Italian economy and banking system is a complete shambles. Portugal is still in the shit and Spain is only just starting to see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel but still has unemployment levels that are unsustainable.

Corruption in the EU is endemic and waste is far too small a word to describe how much of our money is thrown away for nothing more than political ego massaging.

I could go on about CAP and the fisheries policy and on and on but they have been more than covered on here in the last months.

It has to stop but as long as people like Junker, Schulz and Tusk are in charge it never will. They have had their chance and well and truly blown it.

Thankfully Schulz has now jumped ship to run for the leadership of his party in Germany. Well that is his excuse, the reality is that he lost the support of the largest group in the EU parliament so he has jumped before he was pushed out in January.

So do I want the current version of the EU to collapse? Yes and hopefully something less corrupt, less wasteful, and much more democratic will emerge from the ashes.

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

"I don't think even the most hard line Brexiter wants to see the total collapse of Europe. However something does need to change and it has to be a big change.

The EU has had too many chances to reform and it hasn't taken one of them. The only answer, time and time again, is more of the same.

Corruption in the EU is endemic and waste is far too small a word to describe how much of our money is thrown away for nothing more than political ego massaging.

I could go on about CAP and the fisheries policy and on and on but they have been more than covered on here in the last months.

It has to stop but as long as people like Junker, Schulz and Tusk are in charge it never will. They have had their chance and well and truly blown it.

So do I want the current version of the EU to collapse? Yes and hopefully something less corrupt, less wasteful, and much more democratic will emerge from the ashes."

Great post and spot on!

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable."

No, you and your like are who support a shitty system that could put the welfare of the world at stake through a failed ideology! Don't you get it?

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Lovely how some humans love to gloat over other humans suffering

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Lovely how some humans love to gloat over other humans suffering

Isn't it the EU causing human suffering!? Without the EU people will suffer less ffs

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Do some of you people not understand that the reason the EU and the EURO could collapse is because of the human misery it has already caused?? Unbelievable

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable.

No, you and your like are who support a shitty system that could put the welfare of the world at stake through a failed ideology! Don't you get it?"

Yes. I get it because I know what the EU is and who the EU are. I have not been spoon fed lies for 20 years and unlike some on here, I will always look at contrary opinion so as best to get a full and true picture.

I suggest that you find out what the EU is and who they are. The United Kingdom is a far less democratic and failed ideology than the EU ever could be. You just need to be prepared to read the truth and make an informed opinion, but you can't do that if you refuse to look at anything that offers a contrary view of the picture of the world that you feel comfortable with.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Do some of you people not understand that the reason the EU and the EURO could collapse is because of the human misery it has already caused?? Unbelievable"

And your attitude is to kill it, everyone with it and gloat about it shouting "told you so, told you do, I was right and you were wrong."

Uhmm no. Do you know the reason why the United Kingdom has not been overthrown by revolution for a very long time? It is because a Union of nations is s union of people working together and when things go wrong, the people get. Their elected representatives to change it.

Running away and screaming nonsense at your friends because you don't like what "some of them" do is fairly immature, but that is the politics we have at the moment.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable.

No, you and your like are who support a shitty system that could put the welfare of the world at stake through a failed ideology! Don't you get it?

I have obviously looked at it more closely than you and spent a lot longer than you living on the continent and in the Eurozone which is where I get my views from and can make an informed opinion thanks

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable.

No, you and your like are who support a shitty system that could put the welfare of the world at stake through a failed ideology! Don't you get it?

Yet you refuse to look at links to websites that might offer a balance to your view in case it offends your version of the world.

If you don't even know what the EU is and how it works and is structured you cannot really complain about it. Your throwaway lines and comments over the months suggest that your opinion on the EU is far from balanced and indeed fits in perfectly with the anti EU sentiment that is high on rhetoric and low on facts. Oddly enough, the very epitome of the post truth world that we now find ourselves living in.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable.

No, you and your like are who support a shitty system that could put the welfare of the world at stake through a failed ideology! Don't you get it?

Yet you refuse to look at links to websites that might offer a balance to your view in case it offends your version of the world.

Exactly, complete denial of facts from the number of members of the Single Market to Hitler being on the right of the political spectrum.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This.

A real six thumber."

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I didn't lik the IN/OUT referendum. It was too restrictive and narrow. It was pretty clear the EU needed to evolve, in my opinion we should have waited to see how France, the Netherlands, Italy and Germany go in their elections, because it would most liely force the EU to change, plus, regardless we'd know who we are working with across Europe.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"With all the talk about Italy the Austrian presidential election this Sunday has dropped under the radar.

One of the main candidates has promised the Austrians an in/out referendum if he wins.

Sounds fun.

In March there is also a general election in Holland and it is neck and neck in the polls between Rutte's VVD and Wilders PVV."

Which is the person in Austria promising and iN/OUT EU vote?

I thought their right/hard right option was not a fan of leaving the EU but wanted a serious discussion nationally and in the EU about the immigration policies.

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. "
All a collapse of the EU would do is strengthen our negotiating power.

We are one of the most important members of the EU and no one should forget that .The EU is more dependent on the UK than we are on the EU.

The German motor industry depends on us .

In any event countries still need our goods and services.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

You had better hope that people who care a damn site more about the welfare of the world than you do can prevent a wholesale collapse of the EU and Euro.

What a prospect to gloat over... unbelievable.

No, you and your like are who support a shitty system that could put the welfare of the world at stake through a failed ideology! Don't you get it?

Yet you refuse to look at links to websites that might offer a balance to your view in case it offends your version of the world.

Jeez, I have looked at plenty of websites and had an open mind for years. I was living in Italy and Spain when the EU was formed and Spain when the EURO was introduced and I can tell you when times were better.

Ever heard of a guy called Altiero Spinelli by the way? He'd be laughing his socks off at you

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

Agreed.

I have encountered a lot of people who voted out as a protest against Cameron and Osborne.

Even more who liked many ideas from the EU but just found that free movement of any form of labour was too much of a deal breaker.

Quite a few people who wanted out but a Norway or Swiss style association with the single market.

I'm a bit touchy on the first topic, but I can completely get the second and third point.

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

This is very true but assumes that people were really voting just to leave the EU. There was more to it than that. You are right though the referendum should never have happened and it will be Camerons legacy that his poor decision making resulted in a very badly divided society."
His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times .

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

I find it quite telling to read some of the posts here.

It is obvious that some do not so much want to leave the EU but to destroy it on the way out. This attitude strikes me a petty and vindictive. I wonder why this is so often the case when relationships break up? Why is it so often the one who is doing the leaving is also the one attempting to create extra carnage?

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

Fantasy.

The EU doesn't need the UK at all; and by and large will be better off without it.

And much of the EU is saying " thank god they are going ; hurry up and go as soon as possible "

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times . "

Not that he fucked the mouth of a dead pig?

Or that he made an eaton mess of the country and then fucked off as quickly as he could?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

This is very true but assumes that people were really voting just to leave the EU. There was more to it than that. You are right though the referendum should never have happened and it will be Camerons legacy that his poor decision making resulted in a very badly divided society. His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times . "

Come up here and say he was a man of the people to those who I serve at community help kitchens, who after their rent can't afford to put 3 meals of the table, or for those who now cannot access higher education if they want to due to their parents not having enough money to aid them...oh and the people up here who suffered through the floods and still have had minimal support given to their communities in terms of flood prevention. Sadly the army on standby can't actually stop towns from flooding.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I find it quite telling to read some of the posts here.

Agreed. Tearing something down quickly is just asking for long term problems.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

Fantasy.

The EU doesn't need the UK at all; and by and large will be better off without it.

And much of the EU is saying " thank god they are going ; hurry up and go as soon as possible " "

I don't agree with you fully or the person above fully.

But I think the EU knows the UK is a shambles atm.

Scotland and NI threatening independence or autonomy, a nearly 50/50 split society. Our centre left party in chaos, whilst our centre right party is quietly splitting over it's drift further right. Massive income inequality which polarises the nation.

Equally the EU is on thin ice, we know it, national leaders know it, many in the EU parliament and institutions know it.

It would be foolish for anyone in any nation atm to want to jump headlong into something.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

This is very true but assumes that people were really voting just to leave the EU. There was more to it than that. You are right though the referendum should never have happened and it will be Camerons legacy that his poor decision making resulted in a very badly divided society. His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times .

Those are the people that have the most to lose in Brexit

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need it? What do we need it for? Why can't there be a free trade area without political interference? Why do we need a seven hundred and odd member parliament that flits between two sites at massive cost?

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

All I hear from the remainers is how much it will cost to leave, which is also very much open to debate, but all I see is people putting selfish short term financial gain ahead of democracy and self determination.

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By *oyce69Man over a year ago

Driffield

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"With all the talk about Italy the Austrian presidential election this Sunday has dropped under the radar.

One of the main candidates has promised the Austrians an in/out referendum if he wins.

Sounds fun.

In March there is also a general election in Holland and it is neck and neck in the polls between Rutte's VVD and Wilders PVV."

The polls have the Greens neck and neck with the Austrian Freedom party as well. According to the polling formbook therefore that will be two more victories for the so far silent majority...especially after the Greens tried to rig the last Austrian election!

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

Some people like those things, the freedom to work in other countries, the ability to employ the best people from a pool of 500m rather than 65m.

Some people like the huge amount of economic prosperity that being in the EU has brought.

Some people like the fact that young healthy people coming from Europe to work here has actually subsidised the UKs public services as they put in more than they take out.

Some people like shared sovereignty, be that in the United kingdom (4 countries) or the EU, because they believe that the world is a better place when we work together.

It's not just about short term financial benefit, staying in the EU is good in the short, medium and long term financially.

There is democracy in the EU, it is very much a scaled up version of the Westminster system that we created.

Leaving the EU seems to be damaging our political system much more than the EU has ever done. PM trying to use royal prerogative powers to unilaterally repeal legislation against the will of parliament, high court judges called traitors and enemies of the people by applying British laws in British courts. Planned, then abandoned public demonstrations aimed at intimidating the Supreme Court.

Hate crimes increasing and a white supremacist murdering an MP.

Nearly £200bn of monetary and fiscal policy measures and the government's own SPADs saying that whatever deal we get, it will cost us more than 1% of GDP every single year after we leave.

My question is why the hell would anyone want that?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

It is good to see such enlightened and insightful thinking. I cant imagine why anyone would have ever thought that replacing the European nation state competitive model that proved so good for its population, with a fatally flawed model based on cooperation and ever closer political union.

Nope...

Something doesn't sound right there...

Ah yes, I've got it now...

Why would anyone be so shortsighted and blinkered as to want to destroy a system that has given us 70 years of peace and cooperation and replace it with the nation state model that gave us the Crimean War, WW1 and WW2?

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By *oyce69Man over a year ago

Driffield

"It is good to see such enlightened and insightful thinking. I cant imagine why anyone would have ever thought that replacing the European nation state competitive model that proved so good for its population, with a fatally flawed model based on cooperation and ever closer political union.

Nope...

Something doesn't sound right there...

Ah yes, I've got it now...

Maybe it's to do with the fact that in two of those wars millions of people died so we weren't ruled by Germany, much like it is in the EU.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

Nope...

Something doesn't sound right there...

Ah yes, I've got it now...

Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

The EU only came into being after the Maastricht treaty in 1992. Prior to that it had around 10 years as nothing more than a price fixing club for coal and steel and just over 30 years as a customs union.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Maybe it's to do with the fact that in two of those wars millions of people died so we weren't ruled by Germany, much like it is in the EU.

Can you name a single way in which you have been affected by Germany being in the EU? One law that they have passed that you don't like, one directive from a German commissioner? Anything, anything at all that has had even the slightest impact on your life, that you know specifically came from Germany or Germany politicians or bureaucrats?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Maybe it's to do with the fact that in two of those wars millions of people died so we weren't ruled by Germany, much like it is in the EU.

And there we have it...

Millions died, do you have any idea how many millions?

Try 85 million in 45 years! All because of competition between nation states!

So because you have swallowed the fallacy that Germany runs the EU it 'lets have a bit more of that time!'

God help us all!

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Nobel_Peace_Prize

The 2012 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to the European Union (EU) "for over six decades [having] contributed to the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe" by a unanimous decision of the Norwegian Nobel Committee.

The decision highlighted the reconciliation of France and Germany, stating that "over a seventy-year period, Germany and France had fought three wars. Today war between Germany and France is unthinkable. This shows how, through well-aimed efforts and by building up mutual confidence, historical enemies can become close partners." The decision also highlighted the EU's contribution to the "introduction of democracy" in Greece, Spain and Portugal, the advancing of democracy and human rights in Turkey, the strengthening of democracy in Eastern Europe following the Revolutions of 1989 and overcoming of "the division between East and West" and ethnically based national conflicts, and finally the EU's contribution to the "process of reconciliation in the Balkans."[1]

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

Here is the first page of the Treaty of Paris (the original treaty that started the journey that culminated in the formation of the EU as we know it today:

Treaty constituting the European Coal and Steel Community

THE PRESIDENT OF THE GERMAN FEDERAL REPUBLIC, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE

PRINCE ROYAL OF BELGIUM, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE

PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND

DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,

CONSIDERING that world peace may be safeguarded only by creative efforts equal to the dangers

which menace it;

CONVINCED that the contribution which an organized and vital Europe can bring to civilization is

indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations;

CONSCIOUS of the fact that Europe can be built only by concrete actions which create a real

solidarity and by the establishment of common bases for economic development;

DESIROUS of assisting through the expansion of their basic production in raising the standard of

living and in furthering the works of peace;

RESOLVED to substitute for historic rivalries a fusion of their essential interests; to establish, by

creating an economic community, the foundation of a broad and independent community among

peoples long divided by bloody conflicts; and to lay the bases of institutions capable of giving

direction to their future common destiny;

Seems i am the one who knows what they are talking about while you are quite frankly spouting shite!

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

Here is the first page of the Treaty of Paris (the original treaty that started the journey that culminated in the formation of the EU as we know it today:

Treaty constituting the European Coal and Steel Community

THE PRESIDENT OF THE GERMAN FEDERAL REPUBLIC, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE

PRINCE ROYAL OF BELGIUM, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE

PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND

DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,

CONSIDERING that world peace may be safeguarded only by creative efforts equal to the dangers

which menace it;

CONVINCED that the contribution which an organized and vital Europe can bring to civilization is

indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations;

CONSCIOUS of the fact that Europe can be built only by concrete actions which create a real

solidarity and by the establishment of common bases for economic development;

DESIROUS of assisting through the expansion of their basic production in raising the standard of

living and in furthering the works of peace;

RESOLVED to substitute for historic rivalries a fusion of their essential interests; to establish, by

creating an economic community, the foundation of a broad and independent community among

peoples long divided by bloody conflicts; and to lay the bases of institutions capable of giving

direction to their future common destiny;

Seems i am the one who knows what they are talking about while you are quite frankly spouting shite!"

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Nobel_Peace_Prize

Ah yes the Nobel peace prize.

Isn't that the one they gave to Obama after a week or two in the job?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

I'll give that the thumbs up too. The EU really needs to drop all of this political union nonsense, it's becoming increasingly clear that the people of Europe don't want it. The EU should be a free trade agreement between members and nothing more. Return sovereignty to nation states, return law making to nation states and allow nation states to have their own immigration policy and control their own borders, it's not the job of the EU to be doing those things.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama."

None of them were anything to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Nobel_Peace_Prize

Ah yes the Nobel peace prize.

Isn't that the one they gave to Obama after a week or two in the job?"

No, this is the one they gave to the European Union.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

Here is the first page of the Treaty of Paris...

Seems i am the one who knows what they are talking about while you are quite frankly spouting shite!"

I beg to differ.

The initial aims and purposes put together by those who experienced and suffered the war were righteous and noble. Unfortunately it is now staffed by arrogant PC arseholes spouting shite...and supported by the very same.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

If Britain had voted Remain then it would have been business as usual for the EU. Brexit should have been the kick up the arse the EU needed to reform itself but no they still have the blinkers on. It'll take Renzi losing, maybe Le Pen winning and Merkel losing for them to really get it, the EU has to change if it is to have any kind of future. If the EU thinks it's business as usual then it will be consigned to the dust bin of history where it belongs.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"I beg to differ.

Now there is a class post.

Delete page 1 of the document that is the originator of the EU and clearly states the aims and reasons for the treaty.

Then contradict what it said.

A post worthy of the Ministry of Truth.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Maybe it's to do with the fact that in two of those wars millions of people died so we weren't ruled by Germany, much like it is in the EU.

And there we have it...

Millions died, do you have any idea how many millions?

Try 85 million in 45 years! All because of competition between nation states!

So because you have swallowed the fallacy that Germany runs the EU it 'lets have a bit more of that time!'

God help us all!"

Those brave British service men and women who died in ww1 and ww2 died so we could be a free, independent and sovereign country. They didn't pay the ultimate price with their lives so some chinless wonders like Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron could give away and hand that sovereignty over on a plate to the EU without ever asking the British people first. Arrogance and disrespect of the highest order. Let's not forget who started those wars either, Britain was never the aggressor.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Maybe it's to do with the fact that in two of those wars millions of people died so we weren't ruled by Germany, much like it is in the EU.

And there we have it...

Millions died, do you have any idea how many millions?

Try 85 million in 45 years! All because of competition between nation states!

So because you have swallowed the fallacy that Germany runs the EU it 'lets have a bit more of that time!'

God help us all!

In other forum threads I have mentioned about WWII veterans who served with the British who are currently sitting in refugee camps and there wasn't much call to open our doors to help them from you. Now you are calling on the memories of those who have Served to try and progress your little agenda.

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Nobel_Peace_Prize

Ah yes the Nobel peace prize.

Isn't that the one they gave to Obama after a week or two in the job?

No, this is the one they gave to the European Union."

The same EU that the humanitarian aid charity Medicins San Frontieres want nothing to do with and refuses to accept donations from on ethical and moral grounds.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

[Removed by poster at 29/11/16 17:52:33]

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By *oyce69Man over a year ago

Driffield

" In other forum threads I have mentioned about WWII veterans who served with the British who are currently sitting in refugee camps and there wasn't much call to open our doors to help them from you. Now you are calling on the memories of those who have Served to try and progress your little agenda.

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns. "

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps? "

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

This is very true but assumes that people were really voting just to leave the EU. There was more to it than that. You are right though the referendum should never have happened and it will be Camerons legacy that his poor decision making resulted in a very badly divided society. His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times . "

a 'true man of the people'..

how come?

was it his calamitous 'policy' on Libya..

the fact that the Tories have failed to do what they said economically when they got in in 2010..

borrowing under Osborne increased massively in excess of £550 billion since 2010..

National debt of nearly £1.8 trillion so no budget surplus by 2020 then..

in fact Cameron and Osbornes economic 'policy' is being ripped up by May and Hammond..

so, maybe he would be a man of the people if one were setting the standard of someone totally incompetent, inept and left this country in a worse state that when he took office..

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama.

None of them were anything to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations "

No but it was they, and they only, that kept the peace in Europe for 70 years not the fucking EU.

OK with a little help from Mrs T.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps?

In they're 90s mainly. Nice that you're laughing at them.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama.

None of them were anything to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations

No but it was they, and they only, that kept the peace in Europe for 70 years not the fucking EU.

OK with a little help from Mrs T.

No. It wasn't.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Firstly the EU hasn't given 70 years of peace. That is a complete myth.

By the time of its full formation the Berlin wall had been built and demolished and the Soviet Union had collapsed.

The 70 years of peace in Europe has been kept by the Americans and NATO. and trying to give credit for that to the EU is nothing short of insulting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Nobel_Peace_Prize

Ah yes the Nobel peace prize.

Isn't that the one they gave to Obama after a week or two in the job?

No, this is the one they gave to the European Union."

You mean (like Obama) because they couldn't think of anyone else to give it to.

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

Nope...

Something doesn't sound right there...

Ah yes, I've got it now...

Nice to know that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe since the end of WWII.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama.

None of them were anything to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations

No but it was they, and they only, that kept the peace in Europe for 70 years not the fucking EU.

OK with a little help from Mrs T.

No. It wasn't. "

So pray tell me. Exactly what (apart from existing) have the EU done to keep the peace?

Did they stop the Berlin wall being built in 1961?

Did the EU put up an army (or Air Force or Navy) to keep the Soviet Union in check for 40 odd years?

No they did fuck all. Oh sorry I forgot. Yes they contributed to "world peace" by sending Verhofstadt and his cohorts to rabble rouse in Ukriane with the result that Russia annexed the Crimea and killed thousands including the passengers on Malaysian airliner.

WOW compared to peace lovers like the EU Hitler & Stalin were a pair of fucking pussycats.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama.

None of them were anything to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations

No but it was they, and they only, that kept the peace in Europe for 70 years not the fucking EU.

OK with a little help from Mrs T.

No. It wasn't.

So pray tell me. Exactly what (apart from existing) have the EU done to keep the peace?

Did they stop the Berlin wall being built in 1961?

Did the EU put up an army (or Air Force or Navy) to keep the Soviet Union in check for 40 odd years?

WOW compared to peace lovers like the EU Hitler & Stalin were a pair of fucking pussycats."

You forgot the role the EU played in Serbia/Kosovo and the Balkans in the 90's, but the EU did fuck all then too, and left it upto Nato and the UN to sort it out.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps?

In they're 90s mainly. Nice that you're laughing at them."

And which refugee camps are these 90 odd year olds living in? NAME ONE!

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Tell that to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, Bush Jnr or even (for his sins) Obama.

None of them were anything to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations

No but it was they, and they only, that kept the peace in Europe for 70 years not the fucking EU.

OK with a little help from Mrs T.

No. It wasn't.

So pray tell me. Exactly what (apart from existing) have the EU done to keep the peace?

Did they stop the Berlin wall being built in 1961?

Did the EU put up an army (or Air Force or Navy) to keep the Soviet Union in check for 40 odd years?

WOW compared to peace lovers like the EU Hitler & Stalin were a pair of fucking pussycats.

You forgot the role the EU played in Serbia/Kosovo and the Balkans in the 90's, but the EU did fuck all then too, and left it upto Nato and the UN to sort it out. "

Como Siempre. As always.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I really wonder why some people want to save the EU. As if it is some sort of necessity.

Why do we need 30 thousand plus bureaucrats in Brussels especially as we are told by the remainers that the EU doesn't interfere with much?

Why does living in a free trade zone mean that we have to have open borders and open healthcare and benefits to anyone who just turns up?

Last but not least. Why do we have to give billions (put your own figure in for the exact amount) just to be in this club?

Nope...

Something doesn't sound right there...

Ah yes, I've got it now...

Nice to know that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe since the end of WWII."

Nah!!! A couple of dozen pen pushers in Brussels waived their blotting paper and the Kremlin shit their pants.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps?

In they're 90s mainly. Nice that you're laughing at them.

And which refugee camps are these 90 odd year olds living in? NAME ONE!"

BTW. Correct English would be their not "they're.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its not the politicians you are have to look out for, its the banks. Renzi, Merkel et al weren't I power 10years ago and won't be in power in 10 years time. But some banking families have been in control of the global economy for centuries, they are the faceless, unelected unaccountables who make the decisions that affect us all.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Its not the politicians you are have to look out for, its the banks. Renzi, Merkel et al weren't I power 10years ago and won't be in power in 10 years time. But some banking families have been in control of the global economy for centuries, they are the faceless, unelected unaccountables who make the decisions that affect us all.

That would be the Rothschilds and the Bilderbergers, bunch of cunts that they are. Pricks like George Soros (Hillary Clintons bussom buddy) who is a front man for them and manipulates the markets to influence world events and governments. Soros had a hand in plunging the pound on the Brexit vote because we had the audacity to give him and the Rothschilds the finger and said we are not going along with their globalist agenda. I've got nothing but contempt for these people.

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

This is very true but assumes that people were really voting just to leave the EU. There was more to it than that. You are right though the referendum should never have happened and it will be Camerons legacy that his poor decision making resulted in a very badly divided society. His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times .

a 'true man of the people'..

how come?

was it his calamitous 'policy' on Libya..

the fact that the Tories have failed to do what they said economically when they got in in 2010..

borrowing under Osborne increased massively in excess of £550 billion since 2010..

National debt of nearly £1.8 trillion so no budget surplus by 2020 then..

in fact Cameron and Osbornes economic 'policy' is being ripped up by May and Hammond..

so, maybe he would be a man of the people if one were setting the standard of someone totally incompetent, inept and left this country in a worse state that when he took office..

"
He left office with the country having

1. Low rates of umemployment

2. A booming economy

3. The stock exchange near to an all time high

4. Steered the country through difficult times after the banking crisis.

5. Tackled problems within the NHS .

One only has to drive around the country and see the number of new coffee shops , restaurants and hotels .

It is hardly a country is crisis .

A new leader is of course entitled to take a different approach especially to borrowing .

Not only did David Cameron build a sound economy , he let everyone in the UK decide their future by having a referendum.

You can hardly get fairer than that.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps?

In they're 90s mainly. Nice that you're laughing at them.

And which refugee camps are these 90 odd year olds living in? NAME ONE!"

Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

This.

A real six thumber.

If it were put to a public vote I'd compromise and support that.

This is very true but assumes that people were really voting just to leave the EU. There was more to it than that. You are right though the referendum should never have happened and it will be Camerons legacy that his poor decision making resulted in a very badly divided society. His legacy will be that he believed in democracy and gave every citizen in the UK a vote on their future. You cannot get fairer than that . A true man of the people who did a great job leading the country through difficult times .

It is difficult to see why people could not afford food. ? Where is their benefit money going ? Do they smoke or are you referring to those in full time employment ?

Whilst I admire you for volunteering in soap kitchen , I fail to see how not bring able to afford food has any correlation to David Cameron.

I thought tbat household insurance covered the floods and that loans were available for education..

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

" He left office with the country having "

The caMoron legacy.

" 1. Low rates of umemployment"

Over a million people on zero hours contracts.

" 2. A booming economy"

Average wages 10% lower than 2007 and 1,084,604 three day food bags distributed in 2014/15

" 3. The stock exchange near to an all time high"

Used ideological austerity to fund continually cuts to income and corporation tax to further enrich the super rich.

" 4. Steered the country through difficult times after the banking crisis. "

Reversed Gordon Brown's economic policies that had saved the UK from recession in 2008 plunging us into a double dip recession verging on depression and using that as an excuse to force the most savage cuts on local government (including presiding over cutting serving police officers by 14%)

" 5. Tackled problems within the NHS ."

In 2009/10 the NHS (across the board) had an annual surplus of £1945 million (just under £2 billion). In 2014/15, having spent 5 years 'tackling' 'the problems' the NHS is running an annual deficit of £852 million.

" One only has to drive around the country and see the number of new coffee shops , restaurants and hotels ."

One only has to drive down any high street and look to either side of the flashy starbucks (that pays no tax) to see how your hero has turned the country into a wasteland for the majority so that the super rich can horde even more money that they will never spend!

" It is hardly a country is crisis ."

The crisis is so appalling and the evidence so stark that the majority of pig fucker fans refuse to see what is in front of their eyes!

" A new leader is of course entitled to take a different approach especially to borrowing ."

The new leader and her chancellor has effectively admitted that the past 6 years of tory policy has been a failure and adopted the investment policies of the 2010 Labour Party manifesto.

" Not only did David Cameron build a sound economy , he let everyone in the UK decide their future by having a referendum. "

Not only did the pig fucker stick his cock in a dead pigs face he totally fucked the economy and in order to get an extra few months in power has so divided the country it is lightly to cause Scotland to secede from the union. A great legacy for the leader of the 'One Briton' Conservative and Unionist Party!

" You can hardly get fairer than that.

You can hardly do worse than that!

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan over a year ago

Kent

To be fair though he did remember to go back to the pub and pick his kiddie up

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

People who have Served, and died for this country deserve better than to be used as political pawns.

Fuck me, how old are these WW2 vets that are sitting in refugee camps?

In they're 90s mainly. Nice that you're laughing at them.

And which refugee camps are these 90 odd year olds living in? NAME ONE!

Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three. "

Ah so that's where we are going with this one. OK not really on topic but I'll humour you for a moment

Precisely how many WW2 veterans who served in the British army are in the Burma Thailand refugee camps?

If there are any I would welcome them with open arms.

What I would suspect however is that maybe a handful will have some tenuous link to the British army at that time and are now being used by the left as political pawns to try and shame Britain into taking a shed load of refugees from the region.

Nice try.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three. "

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

On a more serious point it is disgusting to read how glibly hotlove dismisses how the Karan (think I've spelt it right) tribesmen guided, and fought for the British and sheltered the sick and wounded. But considering how shabbily they were treated after the war I am not surprised.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

So because they helped the British army to help them by kicking the Japanese out of their country we owe them a living forever?

Many French, Dutch, Belgians, Greeks and others did the same.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

Or how Royce and CandM were laughing at them, nice isn't it. The people I am talking about were serving soldiers, Burma Star recipients, who fought in uniform with the British.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

Or how Royce and CandM were laughing at them, nice isn't it. The people I am talking about were serving soldiers, Burma Star recipients, who fought in uniform with the British."

I was laughing at you, as usual

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"So because they helped the British army to help them by kicking the Japanese out of their country we owe them a living forever?

Many French, Dutch, Belgians, Greeks and others did the same.

Actually they were recruited and trained by the British Army. They were promised independence after the war for their aid and then when we won we lived up to our reputation as 'Perfidious Albion' and reneged on all our promises.

By the way, we did not help them kick the Japs out. We were the colonial power prior to 1941, it was they helped us reclaim a territory of the British Empire that we subsequently handed to the people who had supported and fought for the Japanese!

Again your version of history and the historical facts are in conflict, but please don't let fact get in the way of your political bigotry.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

Or how Royce and CandM were laughing at them, nice isn't it. The people I am talking about were serving soldiers, Burma Star recipients, who fought in uniform with the British."

And how many served in uniform Burma Star recipients are in those camps? Very few if any I would guess.

I would agree than one is one too many but to try to use them (if they exist) as pawns to further a political agenda is the real disgrace.

Rather than aiming your vitriol at the British maybe you should take a look at the Burmese (or Myanmar as they like to call it these days) government.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"So because they helped the British army to help them by kicking the Japanese out of their country we owe them a living forever?

Many French, Dutch, Belgians, Greeks and others did the same.

Again your version of history and the historical facts are in conflict, but please don't let fact get in the way of your political bigotry."

Ah yes I wondered when the B word would surface. It usually turns up when arguments are wearing a bit thin.

As for the slant on history. You will find that the Burmese that helped the Japanese did so as a way of fighting British colonial rule. To many Burmese they were freedom fighters and fully entitled to take their share of power after independence.

As in many other countries the handover to independence wasn't handled particularly well by the British, but 70 years on they have had more than enough time to sort themselves out. It just isn't our problem any more.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

Or how Royce and CandM were laughing at them, nice isn't it. The people I am talking about were serving soldiers, Burma Star recipients, who fought in uniform with the British.

And how many served in uniform Burma Star recipients are in those camps? Very few if any I would guess.

I would agree than one is one too many but to try to use them (if they exist) as pawns to further a political agenda is the real disgrace.

Rather than aiming your vitriol at the British maybe you should take a look at the Burmese (or Myanmar as they like to call it these days) government."

About 100 still living in the camps. So you guess wasn't very good was it.

Which political party is using them as pawns?

I am British and am not aiming any vitriol at them. I just hate all the anti-refugee rhetoric on here and in the media, by people who know so little about refugees and don't even know that some of the people they are talking about Served for us.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Ah yes I wondered when the B word would surface. It usually turns up when arguments are wearing a bit thin.

Sorry, you are in no way bigoted.

You just say that the Burmese who fought for the Japanese against Briton did so to free Burma of British rule and the Karen people who fought for Briton against the Japanese didn't because they were actually fighting the Japanese for their freedom. And this justifies your anti EU anti immigration, pro nationalism political posture.

Yep your totally right! No political bigotry in you what so ever.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Mae La, Mae La Oon and Umpiem. That's three.

Can't even answer a simple question right...

He said name one! (To paraphrase one Sheldon Cooper).

Or how Royce and CandM were laughing at them, nice isn't it. The people I am talking about were serving soldiers, Burma Star recipients, who fought in uniform with the British.

And how many served in uniform Burma Star recipients are in those camps? Very few if any I would guess.

I would agree than one is one too many but to try to use them (if they exist) as pawns to further a political agenda is the real disgrace.

Rather than aiming your vitriol at the British maybe you should take a look at the Burmese (or Myanmar as they like to call it these days) government.

About 100 still living in the camps. So you guess wasn't very good was it.

Which political party is using them as pawns?

And as I said before, anyone who has served in the British armed forces is fully entitled to our help and support. I've always been a strong supporter of equal rights for the Gurkha's for example.

However the anti refugee rhetoric, as you call it, is nothing of the sort.

Genuine refugees must be helped, but that doesn't mean an open door for millions to come to the west for a new life.

Also the term "refugee" has taken on a much more sinister meaning in recent years. Not only is it being used by terrorists to infiltrate but it has been hijacked by economic migrants (mostly young men) from relatively safe countries to get to the west.

Most are being helped (at a price) by criminal gangs and many turn to crime as soon as they set foot in Europe. Some by choice and others by being forced into it to pay off their debt.

Supporting these "refugees" does a major disservice to the genuine ones that really need help, and the sooner certain sections of the left realise this the better.

Turning a blind eye while a 38 year old poses as a child helps no-one.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Ah yes I wondered when the B word would surface. It usually turns up when arguments are wearing a bit thin.

Sorry, you are in no way bigoted.

Yep your totally right! No political bigotry in you what so ever. "

I didn't hijack the thread BTW.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

OK back to the EU.

Is Junker a d*unker?

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Ah yes I wondered when the B word would surface. It usually turns up when arguments are wearing a bit thin.

Sorry, you are in no way bigoted.

Yep your totally right! No political bigotry in you what so ever. "

I don't use it to justify anything. I just railed at a thread drift by the usual suspects to do a bit of Britain bashing on a subject that has sod all to do with the EU or Brexit.

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. "

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Why is this a good thing? Why would anyone want to see financial chaos and hardship in the EU and why would make our lives any better?

Do you not think that this sounds a bit mean?

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Also, the result of the Italian referendum and any consequent fallout in the EU will have a significant impact on our lives in the UK. The Eurozone is a major trading partner now and would still remain a major one. Even if we don't want to be involved in the politics we still want to sell them loads of stuff and go there on holiday without riots and rubbish on the streets. I assume we also don't want the area twenty or so miles away to become a region of armed conflict as everyone just takes care of themselves...

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Why is this a good thing? Why would anyone want to see financial chaos and hardship in the EU and why would make our lives any better?

Do you not think that this sounds a bit mean?

maybe and I don't want to see hardship anywhere, unlike the EU who are looking to punish the people of the UK for having the nerve to leave their corrupt project

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Why is this a good thing? Why would anyone want to see financial chaos and hardship in the EU and why would make our lives any better?

Do you not think that this sounds a bit mean?

maybe and I don't want to see hardship anywhere, unlike the EU who are looking to punish the people of the UK for having the nerve to leave their corrupt project"

You could say that, or you could just say they will be tough negotiations.

Anyway, the leave campaign said it would be in the EUs interest to do a great trade deal. The idea of "punishment" was just scaremongering.

Right?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Comes on monday when pro EU Italian PM Renzi has lost his referendum on political reform. It will probably lead to the end of the Euro and the whole EU project.

Oh well, nevermind

Why is this a good thing? Why would anyone want to see financial chaos and hardship in the EU and why would make our lives any better?

Do you not think that this sounds a bit mean?

maybe and I don't want to see hardship anywhere, unlike the EU who are looking to punish the people of the UK for having the nerve to leave their corrupt project

You could say that, or you could just say they will be tough negotiations.

Anyway, the leave campaign said it would be in the EUs interest to do a great trade deal. The idea of "punishment" was just scaremongering.

Right?

probably, but then my post is just in retaliation to things like that and annoyance with the EU. Millions across Europe are already suffering hardship through EU policies and because of the Euro, it just isn't working, which is why we're having this conversation. For millions things need to change and until the Euro is scrapped there won't be any change, or not in any meaningful way. Once that does happen then hopefully we can see an end to the EU as it is and more powers returned to individual countries.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"For millions things need to change and until the Euro is scrapped there won't be any change, or not in any meaningful way. Once that does happen then hopefully we can see an end to the EU as it is and more powers returned to individual countries. "

Really?

Please explain how scrapping the € will help anyone?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Really?

Please explain how scrapping the € will help anyone?"

The economies of Europe are too diverse for one currency.

It will help the weaker economies of southern europe. They would have more control over monetary policy and have the ability to devalue their currencies to become more competitive if necessary. Austerity is not working for them and the Euro is only of benefit to the larger manufacturing/exporting economies of the north like Germany. But you will probably find fault with whatever I say so do your own research and see what others have to say. It will fail eventually anyway whether it's scrapped first or not

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By *obka3Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

Really?

Please explain how scrapping the € will help anyone?"

The euro has only really ever helped the strong(financially) countries the germans especially as the mark was so strong it was hurting their exports but I am sure you know that. The bigger the euro zone becomes the harder it is for it to balance the needs over more and more countries IE interest rates monetary policy etc

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The economies of Europe are too diverse for one currency.

Right...

Now considering that most of the weaker economies in southern Europe are mainly agricultural and tourist based with most of their customers being from other parts of the EU, explain to me how reverting from the € to national currencies and in doing so returning to a system where they have to pay currency exchange charges on all transactions will help anyone other than the banks and money changers?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The euro has only really ever helped the strong(financially) countries the germans especially as the mark was so strong it was hurting their exports but I am sure you know that. The bigger the euro zone becomes the harder it is for it to balance the needs over more and more countries IE interest rates monetary policy etc "

Really?

Can you explain to me how that works for the USA? You do know that the 50 states of the union do not all have advanced economies in fact some states are bankrupt while others are so rich they make Germany look poor.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Really?

it obviously doesn't work well for them then does it? Maybe thats why Trump got in. I aint arguing about this, go and see what the experts say

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By *obka3Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

Really?

But doesnt that prove the point, when you have large areas of land some parts of which are very wealthy (germany)and thus a good bet to pay off debts etc and therefore a strong currency and that makes it hard for poorer parts (greece) to attract more tourists and export more to help their economy,it really isnt rocket science

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"The economies of Europe are too diverse for one currency.

Right...

Yes (sadly) banks and money changers, as you call them, will profit.

But and it's a very big BUT.

Whether the economy is tourist, agricultural, or industrial the ability to devalue the currency has always been the way governments not only devalue their debt but make their tourism, agriculture, and industry more competitive in a world market.

At the moment, from a Greek point of view, they have a currency that is artificially high. However from a German point of view it is artificially low.

Greek exports and tourism are artificially expensive and German exports are artificially cheap.

The Germans know only too well what would happen to the remaining Eurozone countries if the weaker ones dropped out. The new Euro would rise in value which would crucify their exports, so better to keep the Greeks in poverty but also in the Euro than bump up the price of a Passat.

Ditto Spain Portugal and quite a few others.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face.

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?"

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Really?

it obviously doesn't work well for them then does it? Maybe thats why Trump got in. I aint arguing about this, go and see what the experts say"

Having the same currency across the US doesn't work for them?

"Maybe that's why Trump got in"

Is Trump planning on scrapping the dollar? This is news to me. Although as I type, I am thinking if any President was to return to the Gold standard, it probably would be Trump, he does love his bling bling.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Really?

it obviously doesn't work well for them then does it? Maybe thats why Trump got in. I aint arguing about this, go and see what the experts say

Having the same currency across the US doesn't work for them?

"Maybe that's why Trump got in"

as usual you're too thick to understand things. Rich states are paying for the poor states but thats ok, they are one country. Would you like the rich EU states to keep paying for the poorer EU states or would it be better if they had a monetary system in the EU where the poorer countries could more easily support themselves?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Really?

it obviously doesn't work well for them then does it? Maybe thats why Trump got in. I aint arguing about this, go and see what the experts say

Having the same currency across the US doesn't work for them?

"Maybe that's why Trump got in"

getting called thick by you!

Its not just political concepts that you struggle with, but you don't even understand the individual words that we are using!

But back to your post. You are staying that a currency union works well in one place, but not in another, even though you say their situations are the same. How does that work? Maybe I'm too thick to understand it myself!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ahh this is more like it...the lounge was getting far too lovey dovey and mundane

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. All a collapse of the EU would do is strengthen our negotiating power.

We are one of the most important members of the EU and no one should forget that .The EU is more dependent on the UK than we are on the EU.

The German motor industry depends on us .

In any event countries still need our goods and services. "

Show me the money Pat?

It sounds far fetched, one island nation with a continent dependent on it?

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you? "

No its not too subtle, you patronising little man.

You just coming gleefully skipping to snitch at the forum with every snippet of bad news you can find.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't care what the Eu dies or doesn't do !

It's what we do that matters !

Leave Now !

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Really?

it obviously doesn't work well for them then does it? Maybe thats why Trump got in. I aint arguing about this, go and see what the experts say

Having the same currency across the US doesn't work for them?

"Maybe that's why Trump got in"

getting called thick by you!

Its not just political concepts that you struggle with, but you don't even understand the individual words that we are using!

who said the situations are the same? Like I said, thick

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

this..

i don't understand how anyone can relish the thought of a wholesale collapse which will affect some here..

hey ho..

If the EU collapsed it would have a more chilling effect on the world economy than the banking crash of 2008.

The fact that people wish for this shows just how much they are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. All a collapse of the EU would do is strengthen our negotiating power.

We are one of the most important members of the EU and no one should forget that .The EU is more dependent on the UK than we are on the EU.

The German motor industry depends on us .

In any event countries still need our goods and services.

Show me the money Pat?

It sounds far fetched, one island nation with a continent dependent on it? "
Yes. We are the third largest member and pay more in than we take out .

Why do you think the EU is furious at us leaving ..

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you?

No its not too subtle, you patronising little man.

You just coming gleefully skipping to snitch at the forum with every snippet of bad news you can find."

Haha, how you've changed since coming on this forum

I don't want the UK to fail, but I'm not going to stay silent when I see the damage Brexit it causing.

Other people on here are hoping and wishing the EU to fail.

Two different things.

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you?

No its not too subtle, you patronising little man.

You just coming gleefully skipping to snitch at the forum with every snippet of bad news you can find.

Haha, how you've changed since coming on this forum

I don't want the UK to fail, but I'm not going to stay silent when I see the damage Brexit it causing.

Other people on here are hoping and wishing the EU to fail.

Two different things. "

Luckily for me, draining, negative, condescending people will never drag me to their level.

I enjoy discussing things with anybody but get really annoyed by people who believe they are superior to others , regardless of their opinion.

What saddens me is people with your attitude have done so much harm to otherwise good causes. Your attitude is the one that has driven people from mainstream parties to the gutter of the extremes. Well done.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you?

No its not too subtle, you patronising little man.

You just coming gleefully skipping to snitch at the forum with every snippet of bad news you can find.

Haha, how you've changed since coming on this forum

I don't want the UK to fail, but I'm not going to stay silent when I see the damage Brexit it causing.

Other people on here are hoping and wishing the EU to fail.

Two different things.

Luckily for me, draining, negative, condescending people will never drag me to their level.

I enjoy discussing things with anybody but get really annoyed by people who believe they are superior to others , regardless of their opinion.

You do make me laugh, I'm one of the only centrists on here!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you?

No its not too subtle, you patronising little man.

You just coming gleefully skipping to snitch at the forum with every snippet of bad news you can find.

Haha, how you've changed since coming on this forum

I don't want the UK to fail, but I'm not going to stay silent when I see the damage Brexit it causing.

Other people on here are hoping and wishing the EU to fail.

Two different things.

Luckily for me, draining, negative, condescending people will never drag me to their level.

I enjoy discussing things with anybody but get really annoyed by people who believe they are superior to others , regardless of their opinion.

You do make me laugh, I'm one of the only centrists on here! "

Perhaps slightly centre left

lol

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Perhaps slightly centre left

lol "

I wouldn't disagree with that

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

The Euro probably shouting extend over the state's that it does, but the weaker countries fought to be a part of it. Regardless, the situation is as it is, but the UK was never a part of it.

To be clear, the majority of northern European exports, partsimilarly German are price insensitive high technology and capital equipment. They are bought because there are a very limited number of companies that supply them. They will be bought regardless.

At this point in time instability in the Eurozone would be a huge international problem. So even if, for some inexplicable reason, the UK feels that the EU market is of no interest for us, the rest of the world sells an awful lot to them because it is a very wealthy market. If they stop buying the rest of the world sells less. If they sell less they'll not buy from us.

It is possible to pretend that the world is not connected and we can do fine if we are "independent". We aren't independent though. Outside a major trading block the UK will have less influence over it's future. Going forward to the past isn't going to work.

I often hear that there will be some short term pain but then everything will be fine. Short term could be a decade or more. Fine might be no better than today. People often say that they'd pay more tax for better public services or pay more for British products. The reality is that they vote for tax cuts and buy cheap imports.

For good measure, the vast majority of low paid immigrant work is from British employers and these jobs only exist because wages are low so prices are kept low. If the immigrants go there is very little guarantee that these businesses remain viable and these jobs will be available for Brita to do if they want them or not.

Brexit is wasted energy and wasted money. Certainly no better spent than on the EU.

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Shouldn't*

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

Perhaps slightly centre left

lol

I wouldn't disagree with that

Your way to the right of me in many things, but I may well be way out past Attila The Hun and Genghis when it comes to defence.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Perhaps slightly centre left

lol

I wouldn't disagree with that

Your way to the right of me in many things, but I may well be way out past Attila The Hun and Genghis when it comes to defence.

The only things I have said about defence are we should have a continuous at sea nuclear deterrence. Something that has been repeatedly voted on and supported by labour and Tory governments for decades, so fairly centrist. The other things are only about bringing our defences back to the size they were in 2010, so again not a huge ask.

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

You do make me laugh, I'm one of the only centrists on here! "

Well there you are, you've failed to understand the concept. It isn't a matter of being left, right or centre. It's a matter of being dismissive of other peoples views. Very quickly, you pull out the 'stupid' or 'racist' card, in an attempt to silence those who disagree with you.

This is symptomatic of the methods used in recent years. It is that attitude that has driven people to extremes.

People like you have made the rise in UKIP and BNP easier. That's what makes me angry.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The only things I have said about defence are we should have a continuous at sea nuclear deterrence. Something that has been repeatedly voted on and supported by labour and Tory governments for decades, so fairly centrist. The other things are only about bringing our defences back to the size they were in 2010, so again not a huge ask. "

I was in no way having a dig at you, I think your politics are are a little on the wet (centrist as you say) side, me being quite a lot more socialist in most things. But where our armed forces are concerned although I would welcome a return to 2010 manning levels I don't think it goes anywhere near far enough. If as so many hope our leaving the EU triggers its breakup we will need our armed forces to be strong enough to withstand the attack that will come when the next pan European war starts. 2010 manning and equipment levels wont cut it, and the lead time required to rebuild our heavy industry and rearm is now so long that we will have lost the war before we build a single ship, plane, or tank! The brexiteers are so busy gloating over their 52/48% victory to even consider that giant elephant in the brexit, and destroy the EU at the same time room!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

blimey, WW3 again

something more likely with the EU than without it I'd say.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

You do make me laugh, I'm one of the only centrists on here!

This is symptomatic of the methods used in recent years. It is that attitude that has driven people to extremes.

People like you have made the rise in UKIP and BNP easier. That's what makes me angry."

And you and other people on here aren’t dismissive of other peoples views huh? Only one side in the Brexit debate has tried to silence the other, and that is the Leave side. People who voted remain are called traitors and Remoaners, enemies of the people etc.

I don’t try to silence people, I don’t close myself off and refuse to read things that people think are important, where as people on the other side of the debate won’t even look at something if they don’t think it supports their world view. I have repeatedly asked you for links that support your view, because I am genuinely interested in reading it, yet you are either unable or unwilling to provide any proof to support your arguments.

There are racist comments made on the forum. If someone makes a racist comment, I’m going to call them out on it. Unless challenged, people will think that it is acceptable to make these kind of comments. If people don’t make racist comments, I don’t call them racist.

There are smart people in the world, and there are not so smart people in the world. If that offends you, its not my fault.

I can’t see your point of view when it comes to UKIP and the BNP. You don’t blame them for joining those parties, instead you blame people who can’t stand those parties? To me, that makes no sense whatsoever.

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By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

There are smart people in the world, and there are not so smart people in the world. If that offends you, its not my fault.

Just remember: 50% of people are stupider than average

-Matt

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

I didn’t think that you were having a dig at me. I think its funny that there is this historic view that the Right are pro-defence or better for the military, and the left are the opposite, but I don’t really see that this holds water anymore. The Tories seem to decimate the military whenever they can, scrapping ISTAR assets, decommissioning aircraft carriers, slashing manning levels, selling off capable aircraft etc. every time they are in power.

That said, if Corbyn were ever to become PM, I would expect to see a huge amount of damage inflicted on the Armed Forces.

I think it is a really, really difficult time for the Armed Forces to decide on their strategic footing. We need to have the capability for both conventional, state on state warfare with similarly advanced militaries, and also the capability for what Rupert Smith would describe as “war amongst the people”, asymmetric warfare in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. These are two very different roles that require different skill sets and equipment and training etc. Apart from obviously the reduction in troop numbers, I do think that the Army 2020 structure is very well thought out with the Reactive, Adaptive and Forces Troop commands. This structure could easily be scaled up which is good.

At the moment the military is realigning itself back to the conventional state on state role of combined arms warfare, and I do worry organisationally we may forget the lessons we have learned fighting amongst the people.

I think the most important lesson we need to learn from the last 15 years of conflict though is in the political sphere. The importance of the politicians to set a clear strategic direction, and a clear aim that they want to achieve. This has been severely lacking and there needs to be far better understanding of the use of force amongst senior politicians of all parties.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You do make me laugh, I'm one of the only centrists on here!

This is symptomatic of the methods used in recent years. It is that attitude that has driven people to extremes.

People like you have made the rise in UKIP and BNP easier. That's what makes me angry.

There are smart people in the world, and there are not so smart people in the world. If that offends you, its not my fault.

I'd say you were the most racist person here. You have issues with white people. Maybe Thailand is a racist place?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

I'd say you were the most racist person here. You have issues with white people. Maybe Thailand is a racist place?"

Whenever I say something racist, call me out on it then. Thailand is quite racist, but I don't know what that has to do with anything though, unless you are trying to make assumptions about where my wife is from?

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

There are smart people in the world, and there are not so smart people in the world. If that offends you, its not my fault.

I don't dismiss peoples opinions. I listen and might disagree.

As far as lumping the 'sides' as one homogenous mass of opinion, is an example of the point I'm making.

I havn't tried to silence anybody (I posted my friends 'remain' postal ballot for him) , I've never called anybody a traitor, I have never used the term 'remoaner' , I've never called anybody an enemy of the people.

Lumping people together like that is called Prejudice. It is wrong in all of its forms.

As far as the extremism is concerned. The mainstream parties, particularly Labour and Lib-dem have been beset with this dismissive superior attitude for some time. It has left a well documented void in mainstream politics. This void will be taken up by dangerous, unpleasant alternatives. It needs fixing and quick.

Learn to listen to people who are trying to make reasonable points.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Lumping people together like that is called Prejudice. It is wrong in all of its forms.

Right, so saying things like "People like you have made the rise in UKIP and BNP easier" or "people with your attitude have done so much harm" would be examples of prejudiced lumping together of people would they?

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

Lumping people together like that is called Prejudice. It is wrong in all of its forms.

No, because it was based on comments you personally had made.

I have never used any of the terminology you attributed to me.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Lumping people together like that is called Prejudice. It is wrong in all of its forms.

No, because it was based on comments you personally had made.

I have never used any of the terminology you attributed to me."

Ok, so when I do it its prejudiced, but when you do it, its not. Right.

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

Lumping people together like that is called Prejudice. It is wrong in all of its forms.

No, because it was based on comments you personally had made.

I have never used any of the terminology you attributed to me.

Ok, so when I do it its prejudiced, but when you do it, its not. Right.

I don't make generalised statements about 50% of the population based on how they voted , no. So, I'm not making prejudiced statements about them .

The only comments I've made to people is on comments they have personally made.

You have made the comments I quoted. So I would say I'm addressing you personally, whereas you are making assumptions about me based on a prejudiced cover-all opinion.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Lumping people together like that is called Prejudice. It is wrong in all of its forms.

No, because it was based on comments you personally had made.

I have never used any of the terminology you attributed to me.

Ok, so when I do it its prejudiced, but when you do it, its not. Right.

I don't make generalised statements about 50% of the population based on how they voted , no. So, I'm not making prejudiced statements about them .

The only comments I've made to people is on comments they have personally made.

You have made the comments I quoted. So I would say I'm addressing you personally, whereas you are making assumptions about me based on a prejudiced cover-all opinion."

Ok, so you've personally met all "people like [me]" and all "people with [my] attitude" right, I get it. You know your posts are coming across as a little superior, but I thought you hated people like that?

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

You have made the comments I quoted. So I would say I'm addressing you personally, whereas you are making assumptions about me based on a prejudiced cover-all opinion.

If I'd said 'Labour have your attitude' or 'Lib-dems patronise people' , then your statement would be true. But I haven't said that.

I said 'people with your attitude ' . By definition, those people have the same attitude.

Therefore it is not prejudiced. I'm not clumping people together based on something else.

Your comment to me was:

"And you and other people on here aren’t dismissive of other peoples views huh? Only one side in the Brexit debate has tried to silence the other, and that is the Leave side. People who voted remain are called traitors and Remoaners, enemies of the people etc."

You've heard some people say those things, and then you attribute them to me and 50% of the population. That, in my opinion is prejudiced.

I know I'm banging my head against the wall, because in the time I've been here, I've never seen you once adjust any aspect of your opinions, so there's not much point me explaining to you anyway.

Hopefully, you might inwardly take note of some of it.

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

I guess it's not so interesting responding to any points pertinent to the OPs original post.

Enjoy

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

There are three threads running with the only activity is individuals having a go at CCLC and CCLC responding.

Pointless

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"There are three threads running with the only activity is individuals having a go at CCLC and CCLC responding.

Pointless "

Sorry, I'll try to cut back on my posts.

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By *unandbuckCouple over a year ago

Sheffield

"There are three threads running with the only activity is individuals having a go at CCLC and CCLC responding.

Pointless "

AKA CLCC having a go at individuals and the individuals responding.

AKA people disagreeing in a politics forum

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

"There are three threads running with the only activity is individuals having a go at CCLC and CCLC responding.

Pointless

Sorry, I'll try to cut back on my posts.

"
Hi..We all enjoy your posts and they are always informative and interesting so no need to cut back.

Thanks for all the effort which you put in.

The forum would not be the same without you posts .

I regard you as one of the most imtelligent and informed posters.

We might never agree but what is important is freedom of speech.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Hmmm strange how you post gloating about any uk bad news that you can pin to Brexit. Maybe take heed of your own words?

I dont want the UK to fail. Many on here want the EU to fail.

Is that difference too subtle for you?

No its not too subtle, you patronising little man.

You just coming gleefully skipping to snitch at the forum with every snippet of bad news you can find.

Haha, how you've changed since coming on this forum

I don't want the UK to fail, but I'm not going to stay silent when I see the damage Brexit it causing.

Other people on here are hoping and wishing the EU to fail.

Two different things.

Luckily for me, draining, negative, condescending people will never drag me to their level.

I enjoy discussing things with anybody but get really annoyed by people who believe they are superior to others , regardless of their opinion.

You do make me laugh, I'm one of the only centrists on here! "

Don't forget Too Hot and myself.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"The Euro probably shouting extend over the state's that it does, but the weaker countries fought to be a part of it. Regardless, the situation is as it is, but the UK was never a part of it.

Brexit is wasted energy and wasted money. Certainly no better spent than on the EU."

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

Don't forget Too Hot and myself."

Who you calling centrist??? You come on here labelling people like you know them - just who do you think you are

Judean Peoples Front here I will have you know.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Yes I think there will be a lot of changes in the next months.

Schulz has now jumped ship (before he was pushed) Hollande is political toast, Merkel and Rutte are, at least, on thin ice, and Renzi could be gone by Monday morning.

So much for all the posturing of the summer.

Going down like flies now.

Schulz..... Gone.

Hollande....Gone.

Renzi.......Next?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Don't forget Too Hot and myself.

Who you calling centrist??? You come on here labelling people like you know them - just who do you think you are

Judean Peoples Front here I will have you know."

There are a few centrists left on here, but politics, seemingly globally, appears to heading to the edges of the spectrum rather than towards the middle.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The next one is for germany when alternative for germany wins next year

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Austria far-right candidate Norbert Hofer defeated in presidential poll - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38202669

Guess no crisis in Austria.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Yes I think there will be a lot of changes in the next months.

Schulz has now jumped ship (before he was pushed) Hollande is political toast, Merkel and Rutte are, at least, on thin ice, and Renzi could be gone by Monday morning.

So much for all the posturing of the summer.

Going down like flies now.

Schulz..... Gone.

Hollande....Gone.

Renzi.......Next?"

OOPS!

Another one bites the dust.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Austria far-right candidate Norbert Hofer defeated in presidential poll - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38202669

Guess no crisis in Austria."

Yes. he got about the same percentage as Remain.

Another vote?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't believe in revotes.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I don't believe in revotes. "

I'll hold you to that.

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By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Do people genuinely believe that a swing to right wing parties and a disintegration of the EU and the Euro will be a good thing?

I know a lot of people think that some "short term" pain is fine,except that nobody can specify the duration of the short term (20 years?) or what the benefit will be at the end.

Incidentally in Italy the referendum was NOT about Europe or the Euro. It was about constitutional reform. So the electorate chose change their political system by not changing anything. So what does that actually tell anyone?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Do people genuinely believe that a swing to right wing parties and a disintegration of the EU and the Euro will be a good thing?

I know a lot of people think that some "short term" pain is fine,except that nobody can specify the duration of the short term (20 years?) or what the benefit will be at the end.

The Italian referendum became about the EU and the Euro the moment Renzi said he would resign if he didn't win. Renzi is pro EU and pro Euro. The anti EU 5 star movement party in Italy that wants to take Italy out of the Euro ran their campaign against Renzi on an anti EU/anti Euro ticket and it seems they gained a lot of support because Renzi lost by quite a big margin.

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

"Do people genuinely believe that a swing to right wing parties and a disintegration of the EU and the Euro will be a good thing?

I know a lot of people think that some "short term" pain is fine,except that nobody can specify the duration of the short term (20 years?) or what the benefit will be at the end.

It didn't become an EU referendum; it wasn't when it started; it wasn't when it finished;

It was all about Renzi trying to put through changes to the Italian Parliament. And that's what the man in the street voted about.

5 star like to put out the position that it is: as does the Northern League Neo Nazi party.

This misinformation. Reinforced by the lines of LePen and Farage and that ilk trying to "big up" the anti euro, hard right agenda. The Northern League, plus Beppi''s 5star clowns just simply wanted to disrupt the government.

However; what actually brought the defeat was the Left and centre voting against the changes;

Renzi's reforms were a step far too far; trying to remove too much power from the Italian Senate; a more moderate proposal would have sailed through.

The Anti-EU fanatics are trying to convince themselves ( and everyone else) that the whole of the EU is turning on itself;

In Italy; the truth is that there is no public inclination for an EU referendum , there is a very small consideration of whether to leave the Euro; ( driven by the money traders who would make a killing , and the banks; who don't like the Euro trying to make them behave).

The misunderstanding us not helped by the overwhelmingly right wing, anti -EU UK press, deliberately misreporting the events.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Do people genuinely believe that a swing to right wing parties and a disintegration of the EU and the Euro will be a good thing?

I know a lot of people think that some "short term" pain is fine,except that nobody can specify the duration of the short term (20 years?) or what the benefit will be at the end.

Yes, apart from Renzi's resignation and no change to the Italian constitution the referendum itself does nothing more.

However it is the longer term implications that are scaring the shit out of Brussels.

The Italian banking system is well and truly in the shit and needs a cash injection from somewhere. The Qatari royal family, along with some US hedge funds, had agreed to bail out Italy's biggest bank but it was dependant on Renzi winning the referendum.

Italy has already tried the "bail in" formula (a la Cyprus) which did nothing other than to rob thousands of ordinary Italians out of their life savings.

There is an EU ban on Eurozone governments bailing out their banks so the last resort would be the ECB itself. Draghi also made it clear that any ECB bailout would also be dependant on Renzi winning the referendum. He didn't so all bets are off.

Where will Italy go now? That is very much open to debate.

The president could either try to persuade Renzi to stay on, appoint a caretaker (placeman) Prime Minister, or call an election.

Should he call an election it would look likely that the Five Star Movement, probably in coalition with the Northern League, would be able to form a government. Both party's are committed to an in/out EU/Eurozone referendum.

Whichever way it goes an election is due in 2018, Renzi is a busted flush and any placeman PM will be toxic, so putting it off for a year or so will only delay the inevitable.