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The Tyranny of The Majority !!
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"So described John Major about the Brexit vote. And Blair has declared that we can stop it or at least slow it down till people change their minds. In the pub on eve of referendum one cynic quipped " they will keep having it till they get the answer they want. Prophetic words ???" It worked elsewhere. | |||
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"If Theresa May overcomes the legal challenges and if Article 50 gets invoked in Spring, we could technically be out of the thing we narrowly voted to leave, about three years after the referendum. Lot's can happen in three years and people quite rightly should have the opportunity to change their minds if circustances start to determine that maybe the wrong choice was made. It would be pretty stupid to continue down a particular pathway if it was littered with potholes, nails, mines and obstuctions and it was seemingly leading towards oblivion. The reality is that the economy post referendum and prior to us actually leaving will determine whether or not we leave. If as the Brexiters say all will be rosy and dandy, then no doubt Brexit will happen. On the other hand if the economy really does tank, inflation booms and investment and jobs start to dissappear then the country quite rightly might conclude that they should perhaps stay in the EU after all." And, as the Remainers say, staying in the EU is the panacea... Yawn. | |||
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"If Theresa May overcomes the legal challenges and if Article 50 gets invoked in Spring, we could technically be out of the thing we narrowly voted to leave, about three years after the referendum. Lot's can happen in three years and people quite rightly should have the opportunity to change their minds if circustances start to determine that maybe the wrong choice was made. It would be pretty stupid to continue down a particular pathway if it was littered with potholes, nails, mines and obstuctions and it was seemingly leading towards oblivion. The reality is that the economy post referendum and prior to us actually leaving will determine whether or not we leave. If as the Brexiters say all will be rosy and dandy, then no doubt Brexit will happen. On the other hand if the economy really does tank, inflation booms and investment and jobs start to dissappear then the country quite rightly might conclude that they should perhaps stay in the EU after all." | |||
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"If Theresa May overcomes the legal challenges and if Article 50 gets invoked in Spring, we could technically be out of the thing we narrowly voted to leave, about three years after the referendum. Lot's can happen in three years and people quite rightly should have the opportunity to change their minds if circustances start to determine that maybe the wrong choice was made. It would be pretty stupid to continue down a particular pathway if it was littered with potholes, nails, mines and obstuctions and it was seemingly leading towards oblivion. The reality is that the economy post referendum and prior to us actually leaving will determine whether or not we leave. If as the Brexiters say all will be rosy and dandy, then no doubt Brexit will happen. On the other hand if the economy really does tank, inflation booms and investment and jobs start to dissappear then the country quite rightly might conclude that they should perhaps stay in the EU after all." Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. | |||
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"Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. " It is interesting that you say it is a slim majority but if the votes had been counted the same way as they are for political elections it would have been a landslide victory in favour of brexit. That I would contend is the logic of the dictator and is a damming incitement on how we elect our political representatives. Further you allow for no changing of minds, nor do you acknowledge the deeply flawed (I am being kind, because I could say corrupt) brexit campaign that was being disavowed by its champions within hours of the polls closing. You may be favour of leaving the EU but if the referendum was to be rerun today do you really think that the result would be the same? Remember... No £350 million a week to NHS (or anywhere else for that matter) £ down by 20% (that is 20% of everyone's savings gone!) Inflation up! Cuts to living standards to continue past 2020! Cuts to public services to continue past 2020! And all the above is before triggering Article 50! If you believe that the British people would vote the same way again today you are delusional, and I find it very disturbing that so many are so wedded to an anti EU position that despite the slimness of the win that was gained on lies they refuse to accept that the British people have a right to change their mind. | |||
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"Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. It is interesting that you say it is a slim majority but if the votes had been counted the same way as they are for political elections it would have been a landslide victory in favour of brexit. That I would contend is the logic of the dictator and is a damming incitement on how we elect our political representatives. Further you allow for no changing of minds, nor do you acknowledge the deeply flawed (I am being kind, because I could say corrupt) brexit campaign that was being disavowed by its champions within hours of the polls closing. You may be favour of leaving the EU but if the referendum was to be rerun today do you really think that the result would be the same? Remember... No £350 million a week to NHS (or anywhere else for that matter) £ down by 20% (that is 20% of everyone's savings gone!) Inflation up! Cuts to living standards to continue past 2020! Cuts to public services to continue past 2020! And all the above is before triggering Article 50! If you believe that the British people would vote the same way again today you are delusional, and I find it very disturbing that so many are so wedded to an anti EU position that despite the slimness of the win that was gained on lies they refuse to accept that the British people have a right to change their mind." You are wasting your time with logic; Isaac Asimov got it ( quite some time ago) "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. It is interesting that you say it is a slim majority but if the votes had been counted the same way as they are for political elections it would have been a landslide victory in favour of brexit. That I would contend is the logic of the dictator and is a damming incitement on how we elect our political representatives. Further you allow for no changing of minds, nor do you acknowledge the deeply flawed (I am being kind, because I could say corrupt) brexit campaign that was being disavowed by its champions within hours of the polls closing. You may be favour of leaving the EU but if the referendum was to be rerun today do you really think that the result would be the same? Remember... No £350 million a week to NHS (or anywhere else for that matter) £ down by 20% (that is 20% of everyone's savings gone!) Inflation up! Cuts to living standards to continue past 2020! Cuts to public services to continue past 2020! And all the above is before triggering Article 50! If you believe that the British people would vote the same way again today you are delusional, and I find it very disturbing that so many are so wedded to an anti EU position that despite the slimness of the win that was gained on lies they refuse to accept that the British people have a right to change their mind." Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. It is interesting that you say it is a slim majority but if the votes had been counted the same way as they are for political elections it would have been a landslide victory in favour of brexit. That I would contend is the logic of the dictator and is a damming incitement on how we elect our political representatives. Further you allow for no changing of minds, nor do you acknowledge the deeply flawed (I am being kind, because I could say corrupt) brexit campaign that was being disavowed by its champions within hours of the polls closing. You may be favour of leaving the EU but if the referendum was to be rerun today do you really think that the result would be the same? Remember... No £350 million a week to NHS (or anywhere else for that matter) £ down by 20% (that is 20% of everyone's savings gone!) Inflation up! Cuts to living standards to continue past 2020! Cuts to public services to continue past 2020! And all the above is before triggering Article 50! If you believe that the British people would vote the same way again today you are delusional, and I find it very disturbing that so many are so wedded to an anti EU position that despite the slimness of the win that was gained on lies they refuse to accept that the British people have a right to change their mind. You are wasting your time with logic; Isaac Asimov got it ( quite some time ago) "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " "  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" You are wasting your time with logic; Isaac Asimov got it ( quite some time ago) "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " " Ah the good old "You dont agree with me so you must be thick argument" Perhaps if the great and good's argument was so good then they should have convinced the voters by the power of it instead of patronising them by saying we know best trust us, what did we get? Oh yes instant emergency budget,third world war every multinational company upping sticks and leaving | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" You are wasting your time with logic; Isaac Asimov got it ( quite some time ago) "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " Ah the good old "You dont agree with me so you must be thick argument" Perhaps if the great and good's argument was so good then they should have convinced the voters by the power of it instead of patronising them by saying we know best trust us, what did we get? Oh yes instant emergency budget,third world war every multinational company upping sticks and leaving" More good news in post Brexit Britain. 10 000 new jobs at Land Rover Exports up 0.7 % Businness investment up post Brexit The Bavarian economics minister called for a comprehensive trade deal with Britain. I am sinply going to ignore the merchants of doom and gloom. | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing." And the UK leaving will help those children by? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by?" How many children living in poverty in the UK? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. It is interesting that you say it is a slim majority but if the votes had been counted the same way as they are for political elections it would have been a landslide victory in favour of brexit. That I would contend is the logic of the dictator and is a damming incitement on how we elect our political representatives. Further you allow for no changing of minds, nor do you acknowledge the deeply flawed (I am being kind, because I could say corrupt) brexit campaign that was being disavowed by its champions within hours of the polls closing. You may be favour of leaving the EU but if the referendum was to be rerun today do you really think that the result would be the same? Remember... No £350 million a week to NHS (or anywhere else for that matter) £ down by 20% (that is 20% of everyone's savings gone!) Inflation up! Cuts to living standards to continue past 2020! Cuts to public services to continue past 2020! And all the above is before triggering Article 50! If you believe that the British people would vote the same way again today you are delusional, and I find it very disturbing that so many are so wedded to an anti EU position that despite the slimness of the win that was gained on lies they refuse to accept that the British people have a right to change their mind. Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind " Same here. A stongly performing stock exchange . However I am banned from stating that the stock exchange is performing well as the remainers all state that this due to exchange gains . They of course ignore the fact that not all conpanies are exporters and that exchange gains will already have been factored into the share price . It is a real dissappointment to some people that the economy is performing so well. It does not fit into their concept of project fear . If we assume that all the remainers are right we should sell all our investments now. I will be ignoring them and look forward to a bright future. | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK?" Too many under successive governments over the past few decades | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by?" so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades " I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help?" Personally I think we should open up our doors to some m ore refuges and economic migrants, but I doubt you would agree .... sadly, I see what many if these families have been through, so I couldn't say anything else because it is truly shocking. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help?" By staying in and actually playing a proper role which we've never done, that way we may even shape it to something better and improve the lot of all. Yes massive reform is needed and maybe we could have done that. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? " For some it only extends to their front door and for others it doesn't involve anyone not of their hue | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? For some it only extends to their front door and for others it doesn't involve anyone not of their hue " Strangely enough I'm just back from a week in Spain spent with my Spanish friends and I was broadly voicing their views. I'm not sure what their hue is though | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If Theresa May overcomes the legal challenges and if Article 50 gets invoked in Spring, we could technically be out of the thing we narrowly voted to leave, about three years after the referendum. Lot's can happen in three years and people quite rightly should have the opportunity to change their minds if circustances start to determine that maybe the wrong choice was made. It would be pretty stupid to continue down a particular pathway if it was littered with potholes, nails, mines and obstuctions and it was seemingly leading towards oblivion. The reality is that the economy post referendum and prior to us actually leaving will determine whether or not we leave. If as the Brexiters say all will be rosy and dandy, then no doubt Brexit will happen. On the other hand if the economy really does tank, inflation booms and investment and jobs start to dissappear then the country quite rightly might conclude that they should perhaps stay in the EU after all. Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. " ..well said | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind " I find it funny how it is the same arguement rolled out by brexiteers all the time... Yesterday (last week or whenever the figures are in their favour) the £ was up... As if being only 10% down on the pre-referendum levels is good. 
Then there is my savings are still the same or have gone up argument...
Really? The £ is by your figures down by 10% therefore every pound you have is worth 10% less now than it was pre-referendum. Have your savings really risen by more than 10% in the last 5 months? and I have not taken into account the rise in inflation due to the referendum result.
As for the stock-market is up argument, well that is just as dishonest as the claim that was written on the side of the brexit battle-bus. There is nothing good about the stock market rising by an amount less than or equal to the drop in the £. Because it indicates foreign investors cashing in on the drop in the £ to buy up our businesses at knockdown prices.
So good luck with your savings and pension pot, and when you wake up to exactly how much poorer you are post brexit (that is once we have left) remember me and how glibly you dismissed hat I said. A bit like your brexit leaders said they did not need to listen to the experts. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? For some it only extends to their front door and for others it doesn't involve anyone not of their hue Strangely enough I'm just back from a week in Spain spent with my Spanish friends and I was broadly voicing their views. I'm not sure what their hue is though" Let's see what you suggest to help children living in poverty? In the UK or elsewhere? In your town or further afield, god forbid you should be responsible for anyone in Croydon, so don't worry about the children there .... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind I find it funny how it is the same arguement rolled out by brexiteers all the time... Yesterday (last week or whenever the figures are in their favour) the £ was up... As if being only 10% down on the pre-referendum levels is good.
Then there is my savings are still the same or have gone up argument...
Really? The £ is by your figures down by 10% therefore every pound you have is worth 10% less now than it was pre-referendum. Have your savings really risen by more than 10% in the last 5 months? and I have not taken into account the rise in inflation due to the referendum result.
As for the stock-market is up argument, well that is just as dishonest as the claim that was written on the side of the brexit battle-bus. There is nothing good about the stock market rising by an amount less than or equal to the drop in the £. Because it indicates foreign investors cashing in on the drop in the £ to buy up our businesses at knockdown prices.
So good luck with your savings and pension pot, and when you wake up to exactly how much poorer you are post brexit (that is once we have left) remember me and how glibly you dismissed hat I said. A bit like your brexit leaders said they did not need to listen to the experts."As it is generally acknowledged that the pound was over valued , it would have fallen regardless of Brexit. It is co incidental that it happened around Brexit , this was not the underlying cause . As stock and shares are generally vslued on furure earnings potential we can dimisss the effect of any one off currency gains . In any event not all uk companies are exporters . I subsribe to two weekly publications specialising in Stocks and Shares . They are not too concerned about Brexit. The future looks bright . | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help? By staying in and actually playing a proper role which we've never done, that way we may even shape it to something better and improve the lot of all. Yes massive reform is needed and maybe we could have done that. " The EU were asked to reform by Cameron they refused thinking we would not vote to leave how wrong they were. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind I find it funny how it is the same arguement rolled out by brexiteers all the time... Yesterday (last week or whenever the figures are in their favour) the £ was up... As if being only 10% down on the pre-referendum levels is good.
Then there is my savings are still the same or have gone up argument...
Really? The £ is by your figures down by 10% therefore every pound you have is worth 10% less now than it was pre-referendum. Have your savings really risen by more than 10% in the last 5 months? and I have not taken into account the rise in inflation due to the referendum result.
As for the stock-market is up argument, well that is just as dishonest as the claim that was written on the side of the brexit battle-bus. There is nothing good about the stock market rising by an amount less than or equal to the drop in the £. Because it indicates foreign investors cashing in on the drop in the £ to buy up our businesses at knockdown prices.
So good luck with your savings and pension pot, and when you wake up to exactly how much poorer you are post brexit (that is once we have left) remember me and how glibly you dismissed hat I said. A bit like your brexit leaders said they did not need to listen to the experts. As it is generally acknowledged that the pound was over valued , it would have fallen regardless of Brexit. It is co incidental that it happened around Brexit , this was not the underlying cause .
As stock and shares are generally vslued on furure earnings potential we can dimisss the effect of any one off currency gains .
In any event not all uk companies are exporters .
I subsribe to two weekly publications specialising in Stocks and Shares .
They are not too concerned about Brexit.
The future looks bright . "Gosh, some people have a knack of ignoring what is right in front of them ... do you look around you ever? | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? " Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. | |||
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"You're right Doggy. We could stand banging our heads against a brick for another 20 years while things continue to get worse for millions. They will not change course. Europhiles blame the individual governments for a countries and the continents ills, but that just deflects the blame from the top. The buck must stop there. When a countries' hands are tied by the EU what can they do? The whole project needs scrapping and starting again. Sometimes things have to be knocked down to be rebuilt and improved" Fully agree but I bet once the UK has left the EU they will reform things then to stop other countries leaving. | |||
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"Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind I find it funny how it is the same arguement rolled out by brexiteers all the time... Yesterday (last week or whenever the figures are in their favour) the £ was up... As if being only 10% down on the pre-referendum levels is good.
Then there is my savings are still the same or have gone up argument...
Really? The £ is by your figures down by 10% therefore every pound you have is worth 10% less now than it was pre-referendum. Have your savings really risen by more than 10% in the last 5 months? and I have not taken into account the rise in inflation due to the referendum result.
As for the stock-market is up argument, well that is just as dishonest as the claim that was written on the side of the brexit battle-bus. There is nothing good about the stock market rising by an amount less than or equal to the drop in the £. Because it indicates foreign investors cashing in on the drop in the £ to buy up our businesses at knockdown prices.
So good luck with your savings and pension pot, and when you wake up to exactly how much poorer you are post brexit (that is once we have left) remember me and how glibly you dismissed hat I said. A bit like your brexit leaders said they did not need to listen to the experts. As it is generally acknowledged that the pound was over valued , it would have fallen regardless of Brexit. It is co incidental that it happened around Brexit , this was not the underlying cause .
As stock and shares are generally vslued on furure earnings potential we can dimisss the effect of any one off currency gains .
In any event not all uk companies are exporters .
I subsribe to two weekly publications specialising in Stocks and Shares .
They are not too concerned about Brexit.
The future looks bright .
Gosh, some people have a knack of ignoring what is right in front of them ... do you look around you ever?"Probably every day and every hour of the week. I am using live real time information to make decisions , not opinions . I look around , analyse the data and make decisions . I plan things over a 30 to 40 year period or the rest of my life . | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. " Good post totally agreed. | |||
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"Firstly yes it was a slim majority that won the Brexit vote but they were the rules the referendum was conducted by. Secondly had the vote been conducted on the basis of constituencies,as in a general election the Brexiteers would have won massively. Thirdly it's reasonable to say maybe the electorate should be consulted on changing circumstances. But make no mistake....the likes of Blair and other entrenched europhiles with money don't give a shit about democracy. They are only interested in what they want and seek to impose it on the rest of us. It is interesting that you say it is a slim majority but if the votes had been counted the same way as they are for political elections it would have been a landslide victory in favour of brexit. That I would contend is the logic of the dictator and is a damming incitement on how we elect our political representatives. Further you allow for no changing of minds, nor do you acknowledge the deeply flawed (I am being kind, because I could say corrupt) brexit campaign that was being disavowed by its champions within hours of the polls closing. You may be favour of leaving the EU but if the referendum was to be rerun today do you really think that the result would be the same? Remember... No £350 million a week to NHS (or anywhere else for that matter) £ down by 20% (that is 20% of everyone's savings gone!) Inflation up! Cuts to living standards to continue past 2020! Cuts to public services to continue past 2020! And all the above is before triggering Article 50! If you believe that the British people would vote the same way again today you are delusional, and I find it very disturbing that so many are so wedded to an anti EU position that despite the slimness of the win that was gained on lies they refuse to accept that the British people have a right to change their mind. Its strange that in one point you say the 350 million for the nhs was a lie and yet the next point you say the pound is down 20% and everyones savings are down 20% both of which are lies. The pound yesterday closed 12cents down on its 22ndjune level that is 10%, against the dollar its is around15% . As for savings my bank accounts have more in today than on the 22nd june and my pension funds are higher too . Pot and kettle come to mind " Another lie Willwill69u threw in there "Inflation up". In fact official figures released a couple of weeks ago show inflation went down from September to October 2016. | |||
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"So described John Major about the Brexit vote. And Blair has declared that we can stop it or at least slow it down till people change their minds. In the pub on eve of referendum one cynic quipped " they will keep having it till they get the answer they want. Prophetic words ???" Toxic Blair and his unsavoury band of acolytes such as Peter Mandelson and Alistair Campbell look to be involving themselves again. This can only be a good thing for the Brexit cause. Blair is despised I would say by a good majority of the country and Mandelson is not far behind him in the toxicity stakes. The more they get involved the better the prospects are for Leave I'd say. Talking about John Major's skewed logic same can be said for the Liberal Democrats who should really change their party name to the Liberal anti-democrats. | |||
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"So described John Major about the Brexit vote. And Blair has declared that we can stop it or at least slow it down till people change their minds. In the pub on eve of referendum one cynic quipped " they will keep having it till they get the answer they want. Prophetic words ??? Toxic Blair and his unsavoury band of acolytes such as Peter Mandelson and Alistair Campbell look to be involving themselves again. This can only be a good thing for the Brexit cause. Blair is despised I would say by a good majority of the country and Mandelson is not far behind him in the toxicity stakes. The more they get involved the better the prospects are for Leave I'd say. Talking about John Major's skewed logic same can be said for the Liberal Democrats who should really change their party name to the Liberal anti-democrats. "
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"Another lie Willwill69u threw in there "Inflation up". In fact official figures released a couple of weeks ago show inflation went down from September to October 2016. " Would you like to justify that? Maybe explain to us mere mortals what the CPI is and how it differs from the RPI, the MGI and RMI? Maybe add a little about how the CPI is being continually 'tweaked' and how this beneficial or detrimental to the majority of us? I await your post with baited breath. | |||
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"Another lie Willwill69u threw in there "Inflation up". In fact official figures released a couple of weeks ago show inflation went down from September to October 2016. Would you like to justify that? Maybe explain to us mere mortals what the CPI is and how it differs from the RPI, the MGI and RMI? Maybe add a little about how the CPI is being continually 'tweaked' and how this beneficial or detrimental to the majority of us? I await your post with baited breath." Official figures show inflation went down from September to October. You said inflation was up! You lied. | |||
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"Official figures show inflation went down from September to October. You said inflation was up! You lied. " So that's a 'no' then... Maybe that is because you don't even know what I am talking about. But, hey, you don't need to know anything more than it is 'official figures' and we all know that 'official figures' are never manipulated by those issuing the figures to positively reinforce official positions and policy.  | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. " I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them .... | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them ...." I have meet lots of people who are poor throughout my life and in a variety of locations. The definition of poor is of course open to interpretation and in any event nothing is fair in life , you have to make the best of what you have However the reality is that we are not all equal in life . Some people are lucky to have good looks , others are not . As a broad generalistion it still stands true that everything you have in life has to be earned . Are you saying that we should be giving more money to the poor and if so at what sections .. | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them .... I have meet lots of people who are poor throughout my life and in a variety of locations. The definition of poor is of course open to interpretation and in any event nothing is fair in life , you have to make the best of what you have However the reality is that we are not all equal in life . Some people are lucky to have good looks , others are not . As a broad generalistion it still stands true that everything you have in life has to be earned . Are you saying that we should be giving more money to the poor and if so at what sections .." The definition of poor is defined legally. I am talking about the child poverty and deprivation. Are you saying that we should leave children in poverty and deprivation? Or send them out to work so they can earn their money? | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them .... I have meet lots of people who are poor throughout my life and in a variety of locations. The definition of poor is of course open to interpretation and in any event nothing is fair in life , you have to make the best of what you have However the reality is that we are not all equal in life . Some people are lucky to have good looks , others are not . As a broad generalistion it still stands true that everything you have in life has to be earned . Are you saying that we should be giving more money to the poor and if so at what sections .. The definition of poor is defined legally. I am talking about the child poverty and deprivation. Are you saying that we should leave children in poverty and deprivation? Or send them out to work so they can earn their money? " Neither. We probably need to examine the family structure of the children and why they are in poverty assuming that the definition of poverty is reasonable . If someone can afford tv and smoke I would never consider them to be in poverty. If we use more money in an attempt to eliminate the so called poverty we could end up just throwing money away. I accept that some people work hard for low pay. However nothing in life is fair . There would be no point in me complaining or for that manner anyone complaining about skills that we do not have . We have to concentrate on our strengths and build on them . Sadly the poor will always be with us and little can be done about it . | |||
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"The sad thing is that the people supporting the EU fail to see that the open door policy has led to the exploitation and abuse of many children, particularly female ones. But hey, who cares so long as you think you are doing good in your own mind and can pat yourself on the back" The really sad thing is that many of those who voted to leave the EU did so to stop immigration from Africa and Asia, and are now being told that because there will be no more immigration from Europe there will be even more from Africa and Asia.
But, hey, you don't want to hear that, after all England First, UKIP and the rest love Africans and Asians and will be happy to swap them for educated multilingual Europeans...  | |||
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"The sad thing is that the people supporting the EU fail to see that the open door policy has led to the exploitation and abuse of many children, particularly female ones. But hey, who cares so long as you think you are doing good in your own mind and can pat yourself on the back" Some of us are doing good and making a difference on a day by day basis. Don't let that stop you doing your bit | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them .... I have meet lots of people who are poor throughout my life and in a variety of locations. The definition of poor is of course open to interpretation and in any event nothing is fair in life , you have to make the best of what you have However the reality is that we are not all equal in life . Some people are lucky to have good looks , others are not . As a broad generalistion it still stands true that everything you have in life has to be earned . Are you saying that we should be giving more money to the poor and if so at what sections .. The definition of poor is defined legally. I am talking about the child poverty and deprivation. Are you saying that we should leave children in poverty and deprivation? Or send them out to work so they can earn their money? Neither. We probably need to examine the family structure of the children and why they are in poverty assuming that the definition of poverty is reasonable . If someone can afford tv and smoke I would never consider them to be in poverty. If we use more money in an attempt to eliminate the so called poverty we could end up just throwing money away. I accept that some people work hard for low pay. However nothing in life is fair . There would be no point in me complaining or for that manner anyone complaining about skills that we do not have . We have to concentrate on our strengths and build on them . Sadly the poor will always be with us and little can be done about it . " Examine the family structure? | |||
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"The sad thing is that the people supporting the EU fail to see that the open door policy has led to the exploitation and abuse of many children, particularly female ones. But hey, who cares so long as you think you are doing good in your own mind and can pat yourself on the back The really sad thing is that many of those who voted to leave the EU did so to stop immigration from Africa and Asia, and are now being told that because there will be no more immigration from Europe there will be even more from Africa and Asia.
But, hey, you don't want to hear that, after all England First, UKIP and the rest love Africans and Asians and will be happy to swap them for educated multilingual Europeans... "You are mistaken. There will still be immigration from Europe which is a good thing. The only difference is, we will have control over the numbers and not a mad free for all | |||
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"The sad thing is that the people supporting the EU fail to see that the open door policy has led to the exploitation and abuse of many children, particularly female ones. But hey, who cares so long as you think you are doing good in your own mind and can pat yourself on the back Some of us are doing good and making a difference on a day by day basis. Don't let that stop you doing your bit" I won't thanks. Which is why I voted for an end to exploitation of workers | |||
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"I won't thanks. Which is why I voted for an end to exploitation of workers" How did you come to the conclusion that voting out was a vote to stop worker exploitation? | |||
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"I won't thanks. Which is why I voted for an end to exploitation of workers How did you come to the conclusion that voting out was a vote to stop worker exploitation? " Or child exploitation? Or child poverty ... many people who vote dont also abdicate their responsibility for doing anything else. Are you saying that you vote and consider that is all you need to do to do your bit? Well, no wonder the country is in the state it is in ... | |||
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"The sad thing is that the people supporting the EU fail to see that the open door policy has led to the exploitation and abuse of many children, particularly female ones. But hey, who cares so long as you think you are doing good in your own mind and can pat yourself on the back The really sad thing is that many of those who voted to leave the EU did so to stop immigration from Africa and Asia, and are now being told that because there will be no more immigration from Europe there will be even more from Africa and Asia.
But, hey, you don't want to hear that, after all England First, UKIP and the rest love Africans and Asians and will be happy to swap them for educated multilingual Europeans... "This post does not make any sense . What people voted for was controlled immigration which is the case in most other countries . | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them .... I have meet lots of people who are poor throughout my life and in a variety of locations. The definition of poor is of course open to interpretation and in any event nothing is fair in life , you have to make the best of what you have However the reality is that we are not all equal in life . Some people are lucky to have good looks , others are not . As a broad generalistion it still stands true that everything you have in life has to be earned . Are you saying that we should be giving more money to the poor and if so at what sections .. The definition of poor is defined legally. I am talking about the child poverty and deprivation. Are you saying that we should leave children in poverty and deprivation? Or send them out to work so they can earn their money? Neither. We probably need to examine the family structure of the children and why they are in poverty assuming that the definition of poverty is reasonable . If someone can afford tv and smoke I would never consider them to be in poverty. If we use more money in an attempt to eliminate the so called poverty we could end up just throwing money away. I accept that some people work hard for low pay. However nothing in life is fair . There would be no point in me complaining or for that manner anyone complaining about skills that we do not have . We have to concentrate on our strengths and build on them . Sadly the poor will always be with us and little can be done about it . Examine the family structure?" Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? How many children living in poverty in the UK? Too many under successive governments over the past few decades I just find it interesting that in all the debates and point scoring, the humanity is lost. Where are some of these people living? Where is the compassion amongst the animosity? Maybe we should start by defining our definition of poverty. Some people appear to have very different definitions .Should society be expected to pick up the tab of those who have children that they cannot afford .? A lot of people sympathise with the so called poor. It is very easy to knock out such a statement on a keyboard and appear to be caring . The reality is that money given to poor is someone elses hard earned cash. Maybe we should analyse the underlying reasons as to why people are in poverty. Everything that you have in life has to be earned , not given to you on a plate. I am taking it you have never met the working poor with two or three low paid jobs and trying to survive, or those who have come to this country and are working hard to give their families a better life. Not everyone who is poor is lazy, that's not a newsflash for most people. Plus, so ...if the parents are lazy, why should the children suffer. In education, for example, you would just be continuing the cycle if you ignored the children who didn't get support at home .... isn't it better to offer these children more support to help them escape and, if you insist, become efficient cogs in our economic machine. Yours is a very simplistic view and one that doesn't encourage people to hell themselves, rather dismisses them .... I have meet lots of people who are poor throughout my life and in a variety of locations. The definition of poor is of course open to interpretation and in any event nothing is fair in life , you have to make the best of what you have However the reality is that we are not all equal in life . Some people are lucky to have good looks , others are not . As a broad generalistion it still stands true that everything you have in life has to be earned . Are you saying that we should be giving more money to the poor and if so at what sections .. The definition of poor is defined legally. I am talking about the child poverty and deprivation. Are you saying that we should leave children in poverty and deprivation? Or send them out to work so they can earn their money? Neither. We probably need to examine the family structure of the children and why they are in poverty assuming that the definition of poverty is reasonable . If someone can afford tv and smoke I would never consider them to be in poverty. If we use more money in an attempt to eliminate the so called poverty we could end up just throwing money away. I accept that some people work hard for low pay. However nothing in life is fair . There would be no point in me complaining or for that manner anyone complaining about skills that we do not have . We have to concentrate on our strengths and build on them . Sadly the poor will always be with us and little can be done about it . Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc" The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on | |||
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"Or child exploitation? Or child poverty ... many people who vote dont also abdicate their responsibility for doing anything else. Are you saying that you vote and consider that is all you need to do to do your bit? Well, no wonder the country is in the state it is in ..." More to the point considering that most of our anti exploitation and employment legislation (including safety legislation) has been driven by EU regulations and not by the UK government who have always tried to find ways to mitigate EU regulations in favour of big business. | |||
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"What people voted for was controlled immigration which is the case in most other countries . " Really? I think you are being delusional and if you reread the posts here (and most of the posters here are quite erudite so can disguise what they are saying rather well) and you will notice a theme of 'we voted out because of the German open border policy' (an oblique reference to German policy towards refugees). If after digestion of the not too well hidden meanings in many posts you still espouse the same position I will not be so charitable in my reply. Bottom line is, like it or not many voted out because they believed it would limit coloured immigration. They now find themselves being told that actually an out vote means more coloured immigration and find themselves in a position where admitting they were wrong to vote out means admitting that they are (semi secretly) colour prejudiced. Not many racists are willing to stand up and proudly declare their racism. | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on" . You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go. | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on. You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go." And when there aren't any tax payers left to support us all in our old age? | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on. You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go." How about 'paying' the children directly in the way of free school meals ... all infants have access to these and it least it means they have a hot dinner and something nutritious no matter what their parents choose to spend their money on. Used to be only certain groups got them. My kids would always bring forms back for me to fill in to claim them because I was a single parent, but I was earning too much to qualify so don't tar all single parents as either irresponsible or poor, its just not the case. some make a decision to leave an abusive relationship for the good of their children ( not aimed at the person I quoted, just a thought) | |||
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"Official figures show inflation went down from September to October. You said inflation was up! You lied. So that's a 'no' then... Maybe that is because you don't even know what I am talking about. But, hey, you don't need to know anything more than it is 'official figures' and we all know that 'official figures' are never manipulated by those issuing the figures to positively reinforce official positions and policy. "Would that be the official figures produced by all these experts you love  | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on. You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go. And when there aren't any tax payers left to support us all in our old age? " Maybe only make the first two children eligible for child benefit . | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on. You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go. How about 'paying' the children directly in the way of free school meals ... all infants have access to these and it least it means they have a hot dinner and something nutritious no matter what their parents choose to spend their money on. Used to be only certain groups got them. My kids would always bring forms back for me to fill in to claim them because I was a single parent, but I was earning too much to qualify so don't tar all single parents as either irresponsible or poor, its just not the case. some make a decision to leave an abusive relationship for the good of their children ( not aimed at the person I quoted, just a thought)" That would be a good idea but my memory of school diners was that they were horrible . | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on. You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go. How about 'paying' the children directly in the way of free school meals ... all infants have access to these and it least it means they have a hot dinner and something nutritious no matter what their parents choose to spend their money on. Used to be only certain groups got them. My kids would always bring forms back for me to fill in to claim them because I was a single parent, but I was earning too much to qualify so don't tar all single parents as either irresponsible or poor, its just not the case. some make a decision to leave an abusive relationship for the good of their children ( not aimed at the person I quoted, just a thought) That would be a good idea but my memory of school diners was that they were horrible . " They are very good these days ... | |||
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"What people voted for was controlled immigration which is the case in most other countries . Really? I think you are being delusional and if you reread the posts here (and most of the posters here are quite erudite so can disguise what they are saying rather well) and you will notice a theme of 'we voted out because of the German open border policy' (an oblique reference to German policy towards refugees). If after digestion of the not too well hidden meanings in many posts you still espouse the same position I will not be so charitable in my reply. Bottom line is, like it or not many voted out because they believed it would limit coloured immigration. They now find themselves being told that actually an out vote means more coloured immigration and find themselves in a position where admitting they were wrong to vote out means admitting that they are (semi secretly) colour prejudiced. Not many racists are willing to stand up and proudly declare their racism." It was an election about the EU , not world wide matters . One of the reasons many people voted to leave was concern at the open boder policy . This had nothing to do with the colour of anyones skin or racial origin. Any future immigration will be more tightly controlled as is the case in other countries. | |||
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" Examine the family structure? Single parents , divorce , broken marriages , age of parents etc The evidence is fairly clear cut, but what to do about it? Make single parents marry? Stop younger parents giving birth? How do you actually address those issues, I mean practically here and now, for the children living in these situations? support should be in place to help parents and families deal with their situation, but this doesn't necessarily mean money ... I have seen and helped people turn their lives around with training courses, education etc ... yes, it costs money, but given the wealth in our society concentrated in a few hands, tnere is no reason why everyone couldn't have enough to live on. You could make a start by reversing child benefit and paying people to NOT have children?. 15 quid a week? Err probably won't cut it, which means you'll have to cut the benefits for having children to the bare bones as well!. Eventually you might be able to cut the level of irresponsible parents to a minimum because in reality you'll have to earn good money to afford them, something I personally think might be a good way to go. How about 'paying' the children directly in the way of free school meals ... all infants have access to these and it least it means they have a hot dinner and something nutritious no matter what their parents choose to spend their money on. Used to be only certain groups got them. My kids would always bring forms back for me to fill in to claim them because I was a single parent, but I was earning too much to qualify so don't tar all single parents as either irresponsible or poor, its just not the case. some make a decision to leave an abusive relationship for the good of their children ( not aimed at the person I quoted, just a thought) That would be a good idea but my memory of school diners was that they were horrible . They are very good these days ..." That is good to hear . Glad things are improving . | |||
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"One of the reasons many people voted to leave was concern at the open boder policy . This had nothing to do with the colour of anyones skin or racial origin. Any future immigration will be more tightly controlled as is the case in other countries. " Are you really that stupid? Or is it that you are just obtuse? Do you really believe what you have just said? Or are you so ashamed of the openly inflammatory racist poster of a line of BLACK silhouettes queuing to enter the EU (and UK by insinuation) that you are not even willing to admit that there was a barely concealed element to the leave campaign? No matter what your excuse you should be thoroughly ashamed of your dishonesty! If you are racist, have the courage to defend your beliefs, if you are not a racist have the decency to admit the out campaign played to the prejudices of the racists. | |||
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"So described John Major about the Brexit vote. And Blair has declared that we can stop it or at least slow it down till people change their minds. In the pub on eve of referendum one cynic quipped " they will keep having it till they get the answer they want. Prophetic words ??? It worked elsewhere." Indeed....it happened with votes in Ireland and Netherlands. The EU refused to accept the verdict so told them to vote again....that's the total lack of democracy that we recently voted to get the fuck out of! | |||
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"One of the reasons many people voted to leave was concern at the open boder policy . This had nothing to do with the colour of anyones skin or racial origin. Any future immigration will be more tightly controlled as is the case in other countries. Are you really that stupid? Or is it that you are just obtuse? Do you really believe what you have just said? Or are you so ashamed of the openly inflammatory racist poster of a line of BLACK silhouettes queuing to enter the EU (and UK by insinuation) that you are not even willing to admit that there was a barely concealed element to the leave campaign? No matter what your excuse you should be thoroughly ashamed of your dishonesty! If you are racist, have the courage to defend your beliefs, if you are not a racist have the decency to admit the out campaign played to the prejudices of the racists." What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, | |||
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"One of the reasons many people voted to leave was concern at the open boder policy . This had nothing to do with the colour of anyones skin or racial origin. Any future immigration will be more tightly controlled as is the case in other countries. Are you really that stupid? Or is it that you are just obtuse? Do you really believe what you have just said? Or are you so ashamed of the openly inflammatory racist poster of a line of BLACK silhouettes queuing to enter the EU (and UK by insinuation) that you are not even willing to admit that there was a barely concealed element to the leave campaign? No matter what your excuse you should be thoroughly ashamed of your dishonesty! If you are racist, have the courage to defend your beliefs, if you are not a racist have the decency to admit the out campaign played to the prejudices of the racists. What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, " I think it is more a matter of people not wanting Muslims in the country, from what I hear .... whereas in the parts of the country without ignorance and prejudice, the vote was quite different | |||
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"of the racists. What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, I think it is more a matter of people not wanting Muslims in the country, from what I hear .... whereas in the parts of the country without ignorance and prejudice, the vote was quite different" So the people that have been affected most by immigration wanted to stop it, why does make them racists or stupid ? | |||
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"of the racists. What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, I think it is more a matter of people not wanting Muslims in the country, from what I hear .... whereas in the parts of the country without ignorance and prejudice, the vote was quite different So the people that have been affected most by immigration wanted to stop it, why does make them racists or stupid ?" London has the most immigrants, so I would say they were most affected ... ignorance is not the same as stupidity .... | |||
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"One of the reasons many people voted to leave was concern at the open boder policy . This had nothing to do with the colour of anyones skin or racial origin. Any future immigration will be more tightly controlled as is the case in other countries. Are you really that stupid? Or is it that you are just obtuse? Do you really believe what you have just said? Or are you so ashamed of the openly inflammatory racist poster of a line of BLACK silhouettes queuing to enter the EU (and UK by insinuation) that you are not even willing to admit that there was a barely concealed element to the leave campaign? No matter what your excuse you should be thoroughly ashamed of your dishonesty! If you are racist, have the courage to defend your beliefs, if you are not a racist have the decency to admit the out campaign played to the prejudices of the racists." I did not even see the poster to which you refer though I think that it was mentioned in one newspaper. I can only reiterate that voting for tigher border control and being against an open border policy are policies that have nothing to do with the colour of ones skin. In any event I thought that we were voting on whether or not to leave the EU and their open border policy . I was unaware that the referendum had anything to do with issues outside the EU | |||
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"of the racists. What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, I think it is more a matter of people not wanting Muslims in the country, from what I hear .... whereas in the parts of the country without ignorance and prejudice, the vote was quite different So the people that have been affected most by immigration wanted to stop it, why does make them racists or stupid ? London has the most immigrants, so I would say they were most affected ... ignorance is not the same as stupidity .... " I said most affected, as in the competition for jobs, this according to city metric judged by % of employed is mainly in the north, again why does the desire to protect their families and futures make them racist ? That doesnt excuse the workshy from getting jobs tho | |||
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"of the racists. What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, I think it is more a matter of people not wanting Muslims in the country, from what I hear .... whereas in the parts of the country without ignorance and prejudice, the vote was quite different So the people that have been affected most by immigration wanted to stop it, why does make them racists or stupid ? London has the most immigrants, so I would say they were most affected ... ignorance is not the same as stupidity .... I said most affected, as in the competition for jobs, this according to city metric judged by % of employed is mainly in the north, again why does the desire to protect their families and futures make them racist ? That doesnt excuse the workshy from getting jobs tho" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. | |||
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"I did not even see the poster to which you refer though I think that it was mentioned in one newspaper. I can only reiterate that voting for tigher border control and being against an open border policy are policies that have nothing to do with the colour of ones skin. In any event I thought that we were voting on whether or not to leave the EU and their open border policy . I was unaware that the referendum had anything to do with issues outside the EU " Really? You did not see the poster that was all over the place, in papers, on 20ft high billboards across the country showing a queue 4/5/6 wide of black silhouettes on a red background snaking back to the horizon... You did not notice the subliminal messages in the colours of the poster... Red for stop and danger, black for what needs stopping... But you did get the message about the need for tighter border control... I smell BULLSHIT! And you are full of it! | |||
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"of the racists. What has the colour of the economic migrants have to do with wanting to stop uncontrolled numbers coming into the EU it is the remain side that is making it a race issue not the leave side, I think it is more a matter of people not wanting Muslims in the country, from what I hear .... whereas in the parts of the country without ignorance and prejudice, the vote was quite different So the people that have been affected most by immigration wanted to stop it, why does make them racists or stupid ? London has the most immigrants, so I would say they were most affected ... ignorance is not the same as stupidity .... " I voted to leave and I am not a racist I am not stupid and if we had another vote I would vote leave again and lots of other people would too. | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation." Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? | |||
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"I did not even see the poster to which you refer though I think that it was mentioned in one newspaper. I can only reiterate that voting for tigher border control and being against an open border policy are policies that have nothing to do with the colour of ones skin. In any event I thought that we were voting on whether or not to leave the EU and their open border policy . I was unaware that the referendum had anything to do with issues outside the EU Really? You did not see the poster that was all over the place, in papers, on 20ft high billboards across the country showing a queue 4/5/6 wide of black silhouettes on a red background snaking back to the horizon... You did not notice the subliminal messages in the colours of the poster... Red for stop and danger, black for what needs stopping... But you did get the message about the need for tighter border control... I smell BULLSHIT! And you are full of it!" You have a black silhouette as your avatar does,nt mean you have brown skin or are from another country does it.  | |||
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"I did not even see the poster to which you refer though I think that it was mentioned in one newspaper. I can only reiterate that voting for tigher border control and being against an open border policy are policies that have nothing to do with the colour of ones skin. In any event I thought that we were voting on whether or not to leave the EU and their open border policy . I was unaware that the referendum had anything to do with issues outside the EU Really? You did not see the poster that was all over the place, in papers, on 20ft high billboards across the country showing a queue 4/5/6 wide of black silhouettes on a red background snaking back to the horizon... You did not notice the subliminal messages in the colours of the poster... Red for stop and danger, black for what needs stopping... But you did get the message about the need for tighter border control... I smell BULLSHIT! And you are full of it!" Why does wanting to control immigration make anyone a racist ? | |||
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"I did not even see the poster to which you refer though I think that it was mentioned in one newspaper. I can only reiterate that voting for tigher border control and being against an open border policy are policies that have nothing to do with the colour of ones skin. In any event I thought that we were voting on whether or not to leave the EU and their open border policy . I was unaware that the referendum had anything to do with issues outside the EU Really? You did not see the poster that was all over the place, in papers, on 20ft high billboards across the country showing a queue 4/5/6 wide of black silhouettes on a red background snaking back to the horizon... You did not notice the subliminal messages in the colours of the poster... Red for stop and danger, black for what needs stopping... But you did get the message about the need for tighter border control... I smell BULLSHIT! And you are full of it!" Yes . I got the message about tighter border control from newspapers. The only communication which I glanced at was the one circulated by the remain canpaign and government funded . The poster to which you refer was never didtributed in any area that I visit and I travel widely . | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? " The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ..." Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question" I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? | |||
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"You have a black silhouette as your avatar does,nt mean you have brown skin or are from another country does it. "Is that the best you can come up with to justify the use of a subliminal racist message to promote the anti EU cause? "Why does wanting to control immigration make anyone a racist ? " Why did the leave campaign commission and use an advert that had such racist undertones? " Yes . I got the message about tighter border control from newspapers. The only communication which I glanced at was the one circulated by the remain canpaign and government funded . The poster to which you refer was never didtributed in any area that I visit and I travel widely . " Why if this is the case do you not condemn the advert and admit that the use of such tactics and the use of fallacies like leaving the EU will mean £350 million a week for the NHS makes the referendum result so questionable that there should be a second referendum prior to leaving the EU? Is the reason that the pro leavers are so intent on us leaving without any further scrutiny of the result is because you all know the out campaign was so flawed that it makes it invalid? | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now?" I dont believe the facts back your case | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? I dont believe the facts back your case" You only need to look at voting patterns and be on the ground here in London, including the poorest areas .... | |||
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"You have a black silhouette as your avatar does,nt mean you have brown skin or are from another country does it.
Is that the best you can come up with to justify the use of a subliminal racist message to promote the anti EU cause?
Why does wanting to control immigration make anyone a racist ?
Why did the leave campaign commission and use an advert that had such racist undertones?
Yes . I got the message about tighter border control from newspapers.
The only communication which I glanced at was the one circulated by the remain canpaign and government funded .
The poster to which you refer was never didtributed in any area that I visit and I travel widely .
Why if this is the case do you not condemn the advert and admit that the use of such tactics and the use of fallacies like leaving the EU will mean £350 million a week for the NHS makes the referendum result so questionable that there should be a second referendum prior to leaving the EU?
Is the reason that the pro leavers are so intent on us leaving without any further scrutiny of the result is because you all know the out campaign was so flawed that it makes it invalid?"The leave result is probably under stated because of Project Fear . Some remainers tried to imply there would be a financial melt down if we left . In addition the government spent £9 million on a leaflet drop. Not many people if any will have made their decision on NHS spending . | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? I dont believe the facts back your case You only need to look at voting patterns and be on the ground here in London, including the poorest areas ...." I have. And I know that you are wrong. But on a slightly different point, could you explain how newly arrived immigrants, from wherever, can find a place to live in London and afford it? | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? I dont believe the facts back your case You only need to look at voting patterns and be on the ground here in London, including the poorest areas .... I have. And I know that you are wrong. But on a slightly different point, could you explain how newly arrived immigrants, from wherever, can find a place to live in London and afford it?" Usually with family. I know I am not wrong, because I have studied the patterns | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? I dont believe the facts back your case You only need to look at voting patterns and be on the ground here in London, including the poorest areas .... I have. And I know that you are wrong. But on a slightly different point, could you explain how newly arrived immigrants, from wherever, can find a place to live in London and afford it?" When I was a newly arrived immigrant in London, I had a job to come to and I rented a house for myself and my three children. I have never claimed any benefits except child benefit which isn't means tested. | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? I dont believe the facts back your case You only need to look at voting patterns and be on the ground here in London, including the poorest areas .... I have. And I know that you are wrong. But on a slightly different point, could you explain how newly arrived immigrants, from wherever, can find a place to live in London and afford it? Usually with family. I know I am not wrong, because I have studied the patterns " usually with family? Well that must make up a large proportion of immigration eh | |||
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" Why wouldn't Londoners be most affected? How does it work differently? Why do you assume that keeping immigrants out protects ones family and future ... I just don't get the correlation. Jobs. if employment % levels are higher then immigration has less affect,in peoples minds at least london has been booming for years and of course those that have done well out of things dont want change, how did the poor areas of london where unemployment is higher vote ? The poorer areas with immigrants? Oh no, you mean the poorer areas without? Like I said, ignorance ... Assume you understand that post but to me you are just avoiding the question I understood the question but I am asking you if there are other factors at work here .... ie a dominance of white British voters, because where there is poverty and unemployment and higher levels of immigration, this is not how the vote went, so, its not about unemployment and poverty, its about being white .... and not understanding the advantages immigration can bring. Is that clear now? I dont believe the facts back your case You only need to look at voting patterns and be on the ground here in London, including the poorest areas .... I have. And I know that you are wrong. But on a slightly different point, could you explain how newly arrived immigrants, from wherever, can find a place to live in London and afford it? Usually with family. I know I am not wrong, because I have studied the patterns usually with family? Well that must make up a large proportion of immigration eh "Well, yet again I have to go from my personal experience of working with immigrant families over the last eight years, since I moved to the UK, the vast majority have moved with families until they have got sorted. Not the best conditions but ones they felt safest in | |||
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"You have a black silhouette as your avatar does,nt mean you have brown skin or are from another country does it.
Is that the best you can come up with to justify the use of a subliminal racist message to promote the anti EU cause?
Why does wanting to control immigration make anyone a racist ?
Why did the leave campaign commission and use an advert that had such racist undertones?
Yes . I got the message about tighter border control from newspapers.
The only communication which I glanced at was the one circulated by the remain canpaign and government funded .
The poster to which you refer was never didtributed in any area that I visit and I travel widely .
Why if this is the case do you not condemn the advert and admit that the use of such tactics and the use of fallacies like leaving the EU will mean £350 million a week for the NHS makes the referendum result so questionable that there should be a second referendum prior to leaving the EU?
Is the reason that the pro leavers are so intent on us leaving without any further scrutiny of the result is because you all know the out campaign was so flawed that it makes it invalid?"Only in your opinion my opinion is different you see what you want to see and I see something different. | |||
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"Is the reason that the pro leavers are so intent on us leaving without any further scrutiny of the result is because you all know the out campaign was so flawed that it makes it invalid? The leave result is probably under stated because of Project Fear . Some remainers tried to imply there would be a financial melt down if we left . In addition the government spent £9 million on a leaflet drop. Not many people if any will have made their decision on NHS spending . " Really? I would point out we are still in the EU. We have not even triggered the leaving procedure. I agree that the project fear campaign run by the Tory pro EU campaign was toxic and probably caused many to vote out because of its negative nature. I also believe that many on the tory remain side where secretly hoping for the leave campaign to win. But I have to say that your assertion that not many made their decision based on promises of improved health spending to be laughable. However I understand why you would want to deny those particular lies, even their authors were denying them within hours of the polls closing. | |||
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"Only in your opinion my opinion is different you see what you want to see and I see something different. "Not quite... The leave campaign claim that there would be an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and the subsequent leadership withdrawal from that claim after the polls closed, is fact not opinion. That you are attempting to dismiss fact by labelling it opinion speaks volumes about your probity or lack of. In my opinion. | |||
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"Is the reason that the pro leavers are so intent on us leaving without any further scrutiny of the result is because you all know the out campaign was so flawed that it makes it invalid? The leave result is probably under stated because of Project Fear . Some remainers tried to imply there would be a financial melt down if we left . In addition the government spent £9 million on a leaflet drop. Not many people if any will have made their decision on NHS spending . Really? I would point out we are still in the EU. We have not even triggered the leaving procedure. I agree that the project fear campaign run by the Tory pro EU campaign was toxic and probably caused many to vote out because of its negative nature. I also believe that many on the tory remain side where secretly hoping for the leave campaign to win. But I have to say that your assertion that not many made their decision based on promises of improved health spending to be laughable. However I understand why you would want to deny those particular lies, even their authors were denying them within hours of the polls closing. " make your mind up. Earlier we all voted to leave because we're racists who won't admit it. Or are we all both? Thick/gullible racists? So what's the next insult you're going to come up with? (The way losers who get things wrong usually do) | |||
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"make your mind up. Earlier we all voted to leave because we're racists who won't admit it. Or are we all both? Thick/gullible racists? So what's the next insult you're going to come up with? (The way losers who get things wrong usually do)" I find it quite strange that you would get upset because I arrive at blatantly obvious conclusions that result from the replies you and other pro exit supporters give to reasonable posts. It is pointed out how subliminally racist parts of the out campaign was (it even led to a spike in xenophobic and racist attacks) and rather than accept that this is true and condemn it the pro leave lobby deny what is staring them in the face claiming not to have seen anything even hinting at a pro racist element in the leave campaign. It is pointed out that even the leaders of the out campaign have admitted that the claim written in 10 foot tall letters across their battle bus were lies and the reply is so what it made no difference, get over it we won and that is that. If you cant see how wrong that attitude is then I am afraid that the labels you claim I have hung round all leave supporter are well deserved. Maybe if I heard even a single one of you distance yourselves from the xenophobic toxicity and outright lies of the leave campaign then I would moderate my opinion of you as a group. The really sad thing is if a trader had used the same sort of posters and barefaced lies to promote and sell goods they would find themselves in court facing prosecution on multiple charges. But its OK when politicians use these divisive and toxic tactics to deceive a large enough proportion of the population to effect such an important change on the country. But you and your fellow brexit acolytes and zealots don't want to hear this, and when you eventually have to face the consequences of the out vote no doubt like all religious fanatics you will blame the nonbelievers because you cant be wrong. Because your profit Nige and his high priest Boris have promised you a land of milk and honey if you believe. Good luck with that... | |||
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"make your mind up. Earlier we all voted to leave because we're racists who won't admit it. Or are we all both? Thick/gullible racists? So what's the next insult you're going to come up with? (The way losers who get things wrong usually do) I find it quite strange that you would get upset because I arrive at blatantly obvious conclusions that result from the replies you and other pro exit supporters give to reasonable posts. It is pointed out how subliminally racist parts of the out campaign was (it even led to a spike in xenophobic and racist attacks) and rather than accept that this is true and condemn it the pro leave lobby deny what is staring them in the face claiming not to have seen anything even hinting at a pro racist element in the leave campaign. It is pointed out that even the leaders of the out campaign have admitted that the claim written in 10 foot tall letters across their battle bus were lies and the reply is so what it made no difference, get over it we won and that is that. If you cant see how wrong that attitude is then I am afraid that the labels you claim I have hung round all leave supporter are well deserved. Maybe if I heard even a single one of you distance yourselves from the xenophobic toxicity and outright lies of the leave campaign then I would moderate my opinion of you as a group. The really sad thing is if a trader had used the same sort of posters and barefaced lies to promote and sell goods they would find themselves in court facing prosecution on multiple charges. But its OK when politicians use these divisive and toxic tactics to deceive a large enough proportion of the population to effect such an important change on the country. But you and your fellow brexit acolytes and zealots don't want to hear this, and when you eventually have to face the consequences of the out vote no doubt like all religious fanatics you will blame the nonbelievers because you cant be wrong. Because your profit Nige and his high priest Boris have promised you a land of milk and honey if you believe. Good luck with that..." What is racist about a poster showing a line of virtually all young males waiting to get into europe, the point it is designed to make is that large volumes of young males not women and children are trying to gain access, have you not seen these young males using violence in Calais ? | |||
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"make your mind up. Earlier we all voted to leave because we're racists who won't admit it. Or are we all both? Thick/gullible racists? So what's the next insult you're going to come up with? (The way losers who get things wrong usually do) I find it quite strange that you would get upset because I arrive at blatantly obvious conclusions that result from the replies you and other pro exit supporters give to reasonable posts. It is pointed out how subliminally racist parts of the out campaign was (it even led to a spike in xenophobic and racist attacks) and rather than accept that this is true and condemn it the pro leave lobby deny what is staring them in the face claiming not to have seen anything even hinting at a pro racist element in the leave campaign. It is pointed out that even the leaders of the out campaign have admitted that the claim written in 10 foot tall letters across their battle bus were lies and the reply is so what it made no difference, get over it we won and that is that. If you cant see how wrong that attitude is then I am afraid that the labels you claim I have hung round all leave supporter are well deserved. Maybe if I heard even a single one of you distance yourselves from the xenophobic toxicity and outright lies of the leave campaign then I would moderate my opinion of you as a group. The really sad thing is if a trader had used the same sort of posters and barefaced lies to promote and sell goods they would find themselves in court facing prosecution on multiple charges. But its OK when politicians use these divisive and toxic tactics to deceive a large enough proportion of the population to effect such an important change on the country. But you and your fellow brexit acolytes and zealots don't want to hear this, and when you eventually have to face the consequences of the out vote no doubt like all religious fanatics you will blame the nonbelievers because you cant be wrong. Because your profit Nige and his high priest Boris have promised you a land of milk and honey if you believe. Good luck with that..." You fail to see the fault in your arguement. If people were swayed by what was written on the side of a bus or what Leave campaigners 'promised' then they would have been ten times more likely to have been swayed by the scare stories that eminated from most politicians and financial 'experts'. Just because you cannot understand why people voted the way that they did, and the majority did vote the other way to you let me remind you, doesn't mean they voted the wrong way. There will be a brighter future outside the EU, enjoy it | |||
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"What is racist about a poster showing a line of virtually all young males waiting to get into europe, the point it is designed to make is that large volumes of young males not women and children are trying to gain access, have you not seen these young males using violence in Calais ? " Ah right, thanks for putting me right. How could I fail to understand that making a poster showing a a line of mainly young BLACK males trying to force their way into the UK is in no way racist. 
"You fail to see the fault in your arguement. If people were swayed by what was written on the side of a bus or what Leave campaigners 'promised' then they would have been ten times more likely to have been swayed by the scare stories that eminated from most politicians and financial 'experts'. Just because you cannot understand why people voted the way that they did, and the majority did vote the other way to you let me remind you, doesn't mean they voted the wrong way. There will be a brighter future outside the EU, enjoy it" I think not, I believe you fail to understand that the Tory remain campaign was based on fear driven by appreciation of warnings supplied by intellectuals and experts and aimed at the better educated. While the out campaign deliberately disparaged experts and played to emotional fears and prejudices of the less well educated. Remember Gove... "People in this country have had enough of experts" | |||
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"make your mind up. Earlier we all voted to leave because we're racists who won't admit it. Or are we all both? Thick/gullible racists? So what's the next insult you're going to come up with? (The way losers who get things wrong usually do) I find it quite strange that you would get upset because I arrive at blatantly obvious conclusions that result from the replies you and other pro exit supporters give to reasonable posts. It is pointed out how subliminally racist parts of the out campaign was (it even led to a spike in xenophobic and racist attacks) and rather than accept that this is true and condemn it the pro leave lobby deny what is staring them in the face claiming not to have seen anything even hinting at a pro racist element in the leave campaign. It is pointed out that even the leaders of the out campaign have admitted that the claim written in 10 foot tall letters across their battle bus were lies and the reply is so what it made no difference, get over it we won and that is that. If you cant see how wrong that attitude is then I am afraid that the labels you claim I have hung round all leave supporter are well deserved. Maybe if I heard even a single one of you distance yourselves from the xenophobic toxicity and outright lies of the leave campaign then I would moderate my opinion of you as a group. The really sad thing is if a trader had used the same sort of posters and barefaced lies to promote and sell goods they would find themselves in court facing prosecution on multiple charges. But its OK when politicians use these divisive and toxic tactics to deceive a large enough proportion of the population to effect such an important change on the country. But you and your fellow brexit acolytes and zealots don't want to hear this, and when you eventually have to face the consequences of the out vote no doubt like all religious fanatics you will blame the nonbelievers because you cant be wrong. Because your profit Nige and his high priest Boris have promised you a land of milk and honey if you believe. Good luck with that..." I do not see many voters complaining about the information that they received during the campaign. Voters made their decision and voted . I do not think many voters made a detailed analysis of the campaign literature. Why would they? We already knew all the issues that we faced before the various campaigns started . | |||
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"What is racist about a poster showing a line of virtually all young males waiting to get into europe, the point it is designed to make is that large volumes of young males not women and children are trying to gain access, have you not seen these young males using violence in Calais ? Ah right, thanks for putting me right. How could I fail to understand that making a poster showing a a line of mainly young BLACK males trying to force their way into the UK is in no way racist. "Why is it racist? It shows a group of black people trying to force their way into the UK, would you rather the leave campaign photoshopped the picture to make them look white?. | |||
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"What is racist about a poster showing a line of virtually all young males waiting to get into europe, the point it is designed to make is that large volumes of young males not women and children are trying to gain access, have you not seen these young males using violence in Calais ? Ah right, thanks for putting me right. How could I fail to understand that making a poster showing a a line of mainly young BLACK males trying to force their way into the UK is in no way racist.
You fail to see the fault in your arguement. If people were swayed by what was written on the side of a bus or what Leave campaigners 'promised' then they would have been ten times more likely to have been swayed by the scare stories that eminated from most politicians and financial 'experts'. Just because you cannot understand why people voted the way that they did, and the majority did vote the other way to you let me remind you, doesn't mean they voted the wrong way. There will be a brighter future outside the EU, enjoy it
I think not, I believe you fail to understand that the Tory remain campaign was based on fear driven by appreciation of warnings supplied by intellectuals and experts and aimed at the better educated. While the out campaign deliberately disparaged experts and played to emotional fears and prejudices of the less well educated. Remember Gove... "People in this country have had enough of experts" "What is your definition of better educated.? | |||
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"What is racist about a poster showing a line of virtually all young males waiting to get into europe, the point it is designed to make is that large volumes of young males not women and children are trying to gain access, have you not seen these young males using violence in Calais ? Ah right, thanks for putting me right. How could I fail to understand that making a poster showing a a line of mainly young BLACK males trying to force their way into the UK is in no way racist.
You fail to see the fault in your arguement. If people were swayed by what was written on the side of a bus or what Leave campaigners 'promised' then they would have been ten times more likely to have been swayed by the scare stories that eminated from most politicians and financial 'experts'. Just because you cannot understand why people voted the way that they did, and the majority did vote the other way to you let me remind you, doesn't mean they voted the wrong way. There will be a brighter future outside the EU, enjoy it
I think not, I believe you fail to understand that the Tory remain campaign was based on fear driven by appreciation of warnings supplied by intellectuals and experts and aimed at the better educated. While the out campaign deliberately disparaged experts and played to emotional fears and prejudices of the less well educated. Remember Gove... "People in this country have had enough of experts" "Kind of hung with your own petard there. Who was right? The intellectuals and experts or Gove? And as it has turned out so far, who has the most intelligence, the people who ignored the experts or the 'better educated'? | |||
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" Why is it racist? It shows a group of black people trying to force their way into the UK, would you rather the leave campaign photoshopped the picture to make them look white?. " Why is it racist? Really! Try this for size, black migrants attempting to enter the UK illegally is and was a non issue. No matter the result of the referendum or our remaining in or leaving the EU that problem would remain (and there is a risk that leaving the EU will precipitate Frances withdrawal from the bi-lateral agreement that allows us place our border controls in Calais thus moving the problem to the UK mainland). Does that explain why those posters were racist? As for what I would have liked, well that is quite simple really, I would have liked the leave campaign to have just not used the poster and instead distanced itself from such a toxic issue. | |||
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"I don't care if it's anti-democratic, I just want every trick in the book used to prevent us exiting the EU. Reading the Fab politics folder in any given day will show you that most people shouldn't be allowed a vote on who governs a school fete, let alone the cultural and economic direction of our country. Committing national suicide because one set of crooks have managed to lead a fractionally larger percentage of fools by the nose to tick a box than another set of crooks were able to manage makes no sense at all." Just the kind of attitude that means we are right to leave the EU and why it will be a success | |||
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"I don't care if it's anti-democratic, I just want every trick in the book used to prevent us exiting the EU. Reading the Fab politics folder in any given day will show you that most people shouldn't be allowed a vote on who governs a school fete, let alone the cultural and economic direction of our country. Committing national suicide because one set of crooks have managed to lead a fractionally larger percentage of fools by the nose to tick a box than another set of crooks were able to manage makes no sense at all." I assume you do not believe on democracy then or for that matter a fair and just society where everyone is treated equally. Your remark on school fetes is probably all that we need to know .. | |||
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"I don't care if it's anti-democratic, I just want every trick in the book used to prevent us exiting the EU. Reading the Fab politics folder in any given day will show you that most people shouldn't be allowed a vote on who governs a school fete, let alone the cultural and economic direction of our country. Committing national suicide because one set of crooks have managed to lead a fractionally larger percentage of fools by the nose to tick a box than another set of crooks were able to manage makes no sense at all." Why stop there? Just run the country as YOU see fit. No need to take account of any other fools. Seems fine. | |||
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"I don't care if it's anti-democratic, I just want every trick in the book used to prevent us exiting the EU. Reading the Fab politics folder in any given day will show you that most people shouldn't be allowed a vote on who governs a school fete, let alone the cultural and economic direction of our country. Committing national suicide because one set of crooks have managed to lead a fractionally larger percentage of fools by the nose to tick a box than another set of crooks were able to manage makes no sense at all. Why stop there? Just run the country as YOU see fit. No need to take account of any other fools. Seems fine." That would be perfect! | |||
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"Toxic Blair has got some front showing his ugly mug here again after the findings of the Chilcot report. Blair is about as unpopular as a turd in a swimming pool. He should crawl back under the rock from where he came. " At least that's something everyone can agree on. | |||
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"I don't care if it's anti-democratic, I just want every trick in the book used to prevent us exiting the EU. Reading the Fab politics folder in any given day will show you that most people shouldn't be allowed a vote on who governs a school fete, let alone the cultural and economic direction of our country. Committing national suicide because one set of crooks have managed to lead a fractionally larger percentage of fools by the nose to tick a box than another set of crooks were able to manage makes no sense at all. Why stop there? Just run the country as YOU see fit. No need to take account of any other fools. Seems fine. That would be perfect! "It has been tried previously, although I've not checked how it panned out..... | |||
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"Toxic Blair has got some front showing his ugly mug here again after the findings of the Chilcot report. Blair is about as unpopular as a turd in a swimming pool. He should crawl back under the rock from where he came. At least that's something everyone can agree on." Appears not on another thread right now CLCC is defending Blair. | |||
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"Only in your opinion my opinion is different you see what you want to see and I see something different.
Not quite...
The leave campaign claim that there would be an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and the subsequent leadership withdrawal from that claim after the polls closed, is fact not opinion.
That you are attempting to dismiss fact by labelling it opinion speaks volumes about your probity or lack of. In my opinion. "350 million a week COULD be not WOULD be there is a difference that you are blind to see like I said you ONLY see what you want to see. | |||
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"Only in your opinion my opinion is different you see what you want to see and I see something different.
Not quite...
The leave campaign claim that there would be an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and the subsequent leadership withdrawal from that claim after the polls closed, is fact not opinion.
That you are attempting to dismiss fact by labelling it opinion speaks volumes about your probity or lack of. In my opinion.
350 million a week COULD be not WOULD be there is a difference that you are blind to see like I said you ONLY see what you want to see."But it COULDN'T be spent on the NHS. Or anything else. Because it is a fictional number. -Matt | |||
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"OK, so lets step back a bit. The leavers that are trying to distance themselves from the xenophobia claim that all they want are border controls and the right to say yay or nay on who comes into this country from the EU to live and work. So. What does that look like? Who do we let in? Who do we not let in? I'm guessing most people would allow a Spanish nurse in to work in our NHS? What about a Romanian cleaner? For those that want to control who comes in, what are your criteria on who we let in and why? -Matt" An excellent argument Will any leavers dare to answer it? I'm not xenophobic BUT..... | |||
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"OK, so lets step back a bit. The leavers that are trying to distance themselves from the xenophobia claim that all they want are border controls and the right to say yay or nay on who comes into this country from the EU to live and work. So. What does that look like? Who do we let in? Who do we not let in? I'm guessing most people would allow a Spanish nurse in to work in our NHS? What about a Romanian cleaner? For those that want to control who comes in, what are your criteria on who we let in and why? -Matt An excellent argument Will any leavers dare to answer it? I'm not xenophobic BUT..... " No, that is a shit argument. How can anyone without a crystal ball possibly answer that? | |||
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" Why is it racist? It shows a group of black people trying to force their way into the UK, would you rather the leave campaign photoshopped the picture to make them look white?. Why is it racist? Really! Try this for size, black migrants attempting to enter the UK illegally is and was a non issue. No matter the result of the referendum or our remaining in or leaving the EU that problem would remain (and there is a risk that leaving the EU will precipitate Frances withdrawal from the bi-lateral agreement that allows us place our border controls in Calais thus moving the problem to the UK mainland). Does that explain why those posters were racist? As for what I would have liked, well that is quite simple really, I would have liked the leave campaign to have just not used the poster and instead distanced itself from such a toxic issue. " Uncontrolled Immigration from anywhere was an issue that is different from controlled immigration the scenes on the poster, and you have admitted it show people trying to force their way in regardless of whether we or the rest of europe want them their race, colour or creed is irelevant to the vast majority of people. It is you that is making it a race issue no one else. As for France letting them through how will they get here ? If they let them embark on to ships they wont be allowed to dock here or through the tunnel | |||
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"It's a principle If you want controlled immigration you should be able to elaborate your thoughts about who gets in and who doesn't " Ok, if you don't want controlled immigration can you elaborate your thoughts about who gets in and who doesn't? | |||
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"Right, so as I said above, what does 'controlled immigration' look like to you? What do you see as the criteria for that? Clearly a rule saying 'no-one is allowed in unless their surname starts with an H' isn't a good one. So what is a good set of criteria? -Matt" jeez, how can you have a criteria until you know what you need? | |||
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"It's a principle If you want controlled immigration you should be able to elaborate your thoughts about who gets in and who doesn't Ok, if you don't want controlled immigration can you elaborate your thoughts about who gets in and who doesn't?" If you don't want immigration controls then surely the answer is 'anyone'. As there are no controls. Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to ask? -Matt | |||
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"It's not an argument I'm just genuinely curious. For a real example, I employ two people. One of which is a software developer who is a Greek national but raised in Australia. She lives in Edinburgh and moved over here from Australia. She is paid £50 / hour and works a 40 hour week for me. I also employ a Romania cleaner. She moved over here for work and lives here with her husband. Her husband lost his job (firefighter) in Romania and was unable to find work. So they came here. She is paid £15 / hour and works about 2 hours a week for me. She does such a good job she also now cleans three other people I know's houses. Both of those people do a valuable job for me. Both of those people pay into our economy. They pay taxes. They pay rent. They buy food, petrol, etc. In my mind they should both be allowed in to the UK. But both are effectively self employed freelancers. They came here with no job and found and made their own jobs here. What say those who what to control immigration? -Matt" Control would be based on the demand for the role . In the case of a tractor driver we would need to assess why we are unable to train sufficient people already resident in the UK. We need to address the issue of our long term requirements for labour and how we can train those already resident to fulfill our needs . The pay rate for the cleaner which you have quoted . Is this the average for the area or are you paying above the going rate . ? | |||
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"It's a principle If you want controlled immigration you should be able to elaborate your thoughts about who gets in and who doesn't Ok, if you don't want controlled immigration can you elaborate your thoughts about who gets in and who doesn't? If you don't want immigration controls then surely the answer is 'anyone'. As there are no controls. Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to ask? -Matt" No, you are right. So should there be no controls and allow anyone from anywhere and any amount in? | |||
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"Right, so as I said above, what does 'controlled immigration' look like to you? What do you see as the criteria for that? Clearly a rule saying 'no-one is allowed in unless their surname starts with an H' isn't a good one. So what is a good set of criteria? -Matt jeez, how can you have a criteria until you know what you need?" OK. So now we are starting to get somewhwere. So the basic criteria is 'people we need'. So how do we go about finding that out then? What if the boss of a large construction firm says "I want to let in 3000 Eastern European labourers". You still OK with that? They said they are needed. -Matt | |||
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"Right, so as I said above, what does 'controlled immigration' look like to you? What do you see as the criteria for that? Clearly a rule saying 'no-one is allowed in unless their surname starts with an H' isn't a good one. So what is a good set of criteria? -Matt jeez, how can you have a criteria until you know what you need? OK. So now we are starting to get somewhwere. So the basic criteria is 'people we need'. So how do we go about finding that out then? What if the boss of a large construction firm says "I want to let in 3000 Eastern European labourers". You still OK with that? They said they are needed. -Matt" why eastern european? Wouldn't that be racist? | |||
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"Right, so as I said above, what does 'controlled immigration' look like to you? What do you see as the criteria for that? Clearly a rule saying 'no-one is allowed in unless their surname starts with an H' isn't a good one. So what is a good set of criteria? -Matt jeez, how can you have a criteria until you know what you need? OK. So now we are starting to get somewhwere. So the basic criteria is 'people we need'. So how do we go about finding that out then? What if the boss of a large construction firm says "I want to let in 3000 Eastern European labourers". You still OK with that? They said they are needed. -Matt why eastern european? Wouldn't that be racist?" No, not at all. Not unless I stated that their race somehow made them better or worse than another race. -Matt | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses?" Exactly !!! And get the Nurses Trained Up | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses?" Apart from I don't think anyone is proposing borders on individual town. But I get the point. Just not sure quite how it is going to work exactly. I doubt the cleaner I mentioned above would be let in under those rules. Which is a shame as that would be one less (two counting husband) person contributing to our economy. -Matt -Matt | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses? Apart from I don't think anyone is proposing borders on individual town. But I get the point. Just not sure quite how it is going to work exactly. I doubt the cleaner I mentioned above would be let in under those rules. Which is a shame as that would be one less (two counting husband) person contributing to our economy. -Matt -Matt" If a cleaner is required there are 1.6 million here that could do that job,its skilled workers that should be let in the relatively unskilled jobs must be done by the job shy brits | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses? Apart from I don't think anyone is proposing borders on individual town. But I get the point. Just not sure quite how it is going to work exactly. I doubt the cleaner I mentioned above would be let in under those rules. Which is a shame as that would be one less (two counting husband) person contributing to our economy. -Matt -Matt" It should however be pointed out that cleaning is a relatively low paid job and the taxes paid are probably minimal. There is no real reason to import cleaners as the poster below has pointed out . | |||
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"We should be training people to be skilled workers tho. ! " But not everyone can do a "skilled" job and not every job needs to be "skilled" cleaners do a valuable job as do those who work in care homes, hospital's etc those educated types who voted remain need to learn that the people who work in these types of jobs are every bit as important to a decent soceity and deserve decent pay and conditions, makes my blood boil when folks look down on people who look after others in their last days with huge compassion, | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses? Apart from I don't think anyone is proposing borders on individual town. But I get the point. Just not sure quite how it is going to work exactly. I doubt the cleaner I mentioned above would be let in under those rules. Which is a shame as that would be one less (two counting husband) person contributing to our economy. -Matt -Matt If a cleaner is required there are 1.6 million here that could do that job,its skilled workers that should be let in the relatively unskilled jobs must be done by the job shy brits" The organisation I work for hires contract cleaners and we have six, they are Spanish and Portuguese. Every now and then a British worker joins them, but they dont last more than a couple of weeks ..... | |||
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"We should be training people to be skilled workers tho. ! But not everyone can do a "skilled" job and not every job needs to be "skilled" cleaners do a valuable job as do those who work in care homes, hospital's etc those educated types who voted remain need to learn that the people who work in these types of jobs are every bit as important to a decent soceity and deserve decent pay and conditions, makes my blood boil when folks look down on people who look after others in their last days with huge compassion, " I certainly don't as when I lived in the USA for ten years I managed an assisted living facility and all of our care workers and kitchen staff and cleaners were Hispanic .... that country could not survive without its the immigrants .... they were brilliant and compassionate workers. | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses? Apart from I don't think anyone is proposing borders on individual town. But I get the point. Just not sure quite how it is going to work exactly. I doubt the cleaner I mentioned above would be let in under those rules. Which is a shame as that would be one less (two counting husband) person contributing to our economy. -Matt -Matt If a cleaner is required there are 1.6 million here that could do that job,its skilled workers that should be let in the relatively unskilled jobs must be done by the job shy brits The organisation I work for hires contract cleaners and we have six, they are Spanish and Portuguese. Every now and then a British worker joins them, but they dont last more than a couple of weeks ..... " And that sums up the biggest problem we have and how to solve it, we have produced a generation or two who have been told they are too clever to do hard work, they think its beneath them | |||
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"Put simply, we see what we need at the time. What is the point of letting 3000 eastern european labourers into a town that only needs 50 qualified nurses? Apart from I don't think anyone is proposing borders on individual town. But I get the point. Just not sure quite how it is going to work exactly. I doubt the cleaner I mentioned above would be let in under those rules. Which is a shame as that would be one less (two counting husband) person contributing to our economy. -Matt -Matt If a cleaner is required there are 1.6 million here that could do that job,its skilled workers that should be let in the relatively unskilled jobs must be done by the job shy brits The organisation I work for hires contract cleaners and we have six, they are Spanish and Portuguese. Every now and then a British worker joins them, but they dont last more than a couple of weeks ..... And that sums up the biggest problem we have and how to solve it, we have produced a generation or two who have been told they are too clever to do hard work, they think its beneath them" I think its deeper than that as culturally they support, revere and care for their elders in a different way. My Brazilian sister in law drives me bankers because all she does is clean, but it's in her genes I think. I cleaned to pay my way through university before the days of student loans because I had a full grant and my parents couldn't contribute anything. I dont see anything wrong with people doing these manual/unskilled jobs whilst they are training to do something which will pay more. Of they don't enskill, all that will happen is that they will remain trapped in the cycle of poverty. | |||
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"So much about London here,well Londoners you are only a bit of the country and the majority of people do not live in greater London,so stop thinking your so bloody impotant" Apologies for talking about the city where I live. I dont think its more important, its a place, like the one you live in is. Chip on should, much? | |||
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"So much about London here,well Londoners you are only a bit of the country and the majority of people do not live in greater London,so stop thinking your so bloody impotant Apologies for talking about the city where I live. I dont think its more important, its a place, like the one you live in is. Chip on should, much?" *shoulder | |||
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"We should be training people to be skilled workers tho. ! But not everyone can do a "skilled" job and not every job needs to be "skilled" cleaners do a valuable job as do those who work in care homes, hospital's etc those educated types who voted remain need to learn that the people who work in these types of jobs are every bit as important to a decent soceity and deserve decent pay and conditions, makes my blood boil when folks look down on people who look after others in their last days with huge compassion, " This was the point I was trying to make. That regardless of whether it is a 'skilled' or 'unskilled' job it contributes to our community. And not just in terms of tax revenue, but in terms of ancillary spend as well... food, housing, entertainment, etc etc. The blinkered view that many have that immigration is a net drain on our economy is false and not borne out by either the many studies done or a 5 minute think about the issue. A very good explanation of this is 'Mathematics' by Holly McNish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI -Matt | |||
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"We should be training people to be skilled workers tho. ! But not everyone can do a "skilled" job and not every job needs to be "skilled" cleaners do a valuable job as do those who work in care homes, hospital's etc those educated types who voted remain need to learn that the people who work in these types of jobs are every bit as important to a decent soceity and deserve decent pay and conditions, makes my blood boil when folks look down on people who look after others in their last days with huge compassion, This was the point I was trying to make. That regardless of whether it is a 'skilled' or 'unskilled' job it contributes to our community. And not just in terms of tax revenue, but in terms of ancillary spend as well... food, housing, entertainment, etc etc. The blinkered view that many have that immigration is a net drain on our economy is false and not borne out by either the many studies done or a 5 minute think about the issue. A very good explanation of this is 'Mathematics' by Holly McNish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI -Matt " I dont see the correlation with people voting remain and not wanting to unskilled workers getting a decent wage .... | |||
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"At the end of the 1990's and the early years of the new millennium I was working in the Lake District and we had no end of problems getting holiday cottages cleaned on a Saturday change over. We used a number of different contract cleaning companies but always had to have our own as well because there was never any guarantees as to how many cleaners the contract cleaning company could get to turn up on a Saturday morning. The cleaning company said they had to book 30 people to get 10 to show. This all changed when the contract cleaning companies started to take on the (then) newly arrived Eastern Europeans and finally we could rely on people turning up." maybe if the cleaning company paid a decent wage, getting people to show up wouldn't have been a problem. And what did the company do if an extra 10 or 20 did turn up and weren't required? Send them home without pay? It is the exploitation of workers from home and abroad that is wrong and not the British workers attitude | |||
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"We should be training people to be skilled workers tho. ! But not everyone can do a "skilled" job and not every job needs to be "skilled" cleaners do a valuable job as do those who work in care homes, hospital's etc those educated types who voted remain need to learn that the people who work in these types of jobs are every bit as important to a decent soceity and deserve decent pay and conditions, makes my blood boil when folks look down on people who look after others in their last days with huge compassion, This was the point I was trying to make. That regardless of whether it is a 'skilled' or 'unskilled' job it contributes to our community. And not just in terms of tax revenue, but in terms of ancillary spend as well... food, housing, entertainment, etc etc. The blinkered view that many have that immigration is a net drain on our economy is false and not borne out by either the many studies done or a 5 minute think about the issue. A very good explanation of this is 'Mathematics' by Holly McNish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI -Matt " But it is a drain when we have 1.6 million claiming the dole that should be working,they consume benefits and nhs resources etc, when we get the workshy to contribute then yes immigration will increase gdp | |||
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"We should be training people to be skilled workers tho. ! But not everyone can do a "skilled" job and not every job needs to be "skilled" cleaners do a valuable job as do those who work in care homes, hospital's etc those educated types who voted remain need to learn that the people who work in these types of jobs are every bit as important to a decent soceity and deserve decent pay and conditions, makes my blood boil when folks look down on people who look after others in their last days with huge compassion, This was the point I was trying to make. That regardless of whether it is a 'skilled' or 'unskilled' job it contributes to our community. And not just in terms of tax revenue, but in terms of ancillary spend as well... food, housing, entertainment, etc etc. The blinkered view that many have that immigration is a net drain on our economy is false and not borne out by either the many studies done or a 5 minute think about the issue. A very good explanation of this is 'Mathematics' by Holly McNish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI -Matt But it is a drain when we have 1.6 million claiming the dole that should be working,they consume benefits and nhs resources etc, when we get the workshy to contribute then yes immigration will increase gdp" I agree, when we get more UK nationals off the dole then we will certainly be better off. But, as immigrants arriving in the UK since 2000 are 43% less likely to claim state benefits (UCL study) then I think we are straying away from the topic of immigration. -Matt | |||
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" I agree, when we get more UK nationals off the dole then we will certainly be better off. But, as immigrants arriving in the UK since 2000 are 43% less likely to claim state benefits (UCL study) then I think we are straying away from the topic of immigration. -Matt" The UK unemployment levels are going down at a steady rate since the recession. Should we focus on accelerating it or keep it falling with the status quo and focus on what we spend the most on. Do we know where the biggest loss is? Running of the NHS, military and war or the dole? | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help? By staying in and actually playing a proper role which we've never done, that way we may even shape it to something better and improve the lot of all. Yes massive reform is needed and maybe we could have done that. " And what is the reform needed? All the way through the referendum campaign... and since.... we have heard that it is better to be in a reformed EU... that the EU needs 'reforming'.... that we need to stay in the EU and lead reform... So, all you remainers... Where was the reform plan? Where is it now? What are the timescales for reform? Every person that I've seen interviewed about the EU, that wants to remain in the EU, all talk about 'reform'... but they all have different ideas about what it is that needs reforming... Sounds a bit like the brexit 'no plan'... although this is actual political [arties talking about reform... parties that can have policies and manifestos... So... where's your reform plan? | |||
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"So much about London here,well Londoners you are only a bit of the country and the majority of people do not live in greater London,so stop thinking your so bloody impotant" London has at least 10% of the population of the UK. Economy wise that is where all the banks. I think London is key for the country. We could consider the wirral as important. All those immigrants living in huge houses in Caldy or West Kirby... They do play for Liverpool on the plus side. | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help? By staying in and actually playing a proper role which we've never done, that way we may even shape it to something better and improve the lot of all. Yes massive reform is needed and maybe we could have done that. And what is the reform needed? All the way through the referendum campaign... and since.... we have heard that it is better to be in a reformed EU... that the EU needs 'reforming'.... that we need to stay in the EU and lead reform... So, all you remainers... Where was the reform plan? Where is it now? What are the timescales for reform? Every person that I've seen interviewed about the EU, that wants to remain in the EU, all talk about 'reform'... but they all have different ideas about what it is that needs reforming... Sounds a bit like the brexit 'no plan'... although this is actual political [arties talking about reform... parties that can have policies and manifestos... So... where's your reform plan?" Who says we want reform? It works well as it is . | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help? By staying in and actually playing a proper role which we've never done, that way we may even shape it to something better and improve the lot of all. Yes massive reform is needed and maybe we could have done that. And what is the reform needed? All the way through the referendum campaign... and since.... we have heard that it is better to be in a reformed EU... that the EU needs 'reforming'.... that we need to stay in the EU and lead reform... So, all you remainers... Where was the reform plan? Where is it now? What are the timescales for reform? Every person that I've seen interviewed about the EU, that wants to remain in the EU, all talk about 'reform'... but they all have different ideas about what it is that needs reforming... Sounds a bit like the brexit 'no plan'... although this is actual political [arties talking about reform... parties that can have policies and manifestos... So... where's your reform plan? Who says we want reform? It works well as it is . " well, for a start, the remain campaign was based upon... better in a reformed EU. And I was answering a post from a remainer that said.. "yes, massive reform is needed, and maybe we could have done that"... so, within just a couple of posts, remainers can't even agree upon whether reform is or isn't needed, let alone what reform, when or how..... and you say brexiters haven't got a plan!!!!!! | |||
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"Just pointing out that it's up to the politicians to have the plan, not other voters you don't agree with " What politicians have the reform the EU plan? All the remain politicians during the campaig spke about staying in a reformed EU, and reforming from inside the EU.... so what was / is their plan? None of them can agree on what needs to be reformed! | |||
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"Just pointing out that it's up to the politicians to have the plan, not other voters you don't agree with What politicians have the reform the EU plan? All the remain politicians during the campaig spke about staying in a reformed EU, and reforming from inside the EU.... so what was / is their plan? None of them can agree on what needs to be reformed!" Reform was an answer to those who were on the fence. It's all political. But with ukip and Cameron as the UK's representative in Europe I don't think we'd be effective in reforming. | |||
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"Just pointing out that it's up to the politicians to have the plan, not other voters you don't agree with What politicians have the reform the EU plan? All the remain politicians during the campaig spke about staying in a reformed EU, and reforming from inside the EU.... so what was / is their plan? None of them can agree on what needs to be reformed! Reform was an answer to those who were on the fence. It's all political. But with ukip and Cameron as the UK's representative in Europe I don't think we'd be effective in reforming." No one would be effective on reforming the EU. The EU is hell bent on resisting any kind of real reform. | |||
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"Just pointing out that it's up to the politicians to have the plan, not other voters you don't agree with What politicians have the reform the EU plan? All the remain politicians during the campaig spke about staying in a reformed EU, and reforming from inside the EU.... so what was / is their plan? None of them can agree on what needs to be reformed! Reform was an answer to those who were on the fence. It's all political. But with ukip and Cameron as the UK's representative in Europe I don't think we'd be effective in reforming. No one would be effective on reforming the EU. The EU is hell bent on resisting any kind of real reform. " Yes, but remainers are forever banging on about staying in and 'reforming' the EU, but they can't tell you what that reform looks like....! My point being, that reformers keep going on about brexiters not having a clue about, effectively, just whether to stay in the single market or not, but remainers haven't a diddly squat about anything to do with EU reform... something that is already there, they have differing views as to what does or doesn't work in the EU... so, remainers don't have a credible plan either! Oh the irony (and hypocrisy) of it! | |||
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"The only 'knowledge' that either side has is that the EU is a disaster. Unless you are of the opinion that stagnant economic growth and a decreasing share of world trade is a good thing. Or that 10% plus unemployment as a whole is a good thing. Or that 20% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment in some states is a good thing. Or the fact that there are 25 MILLION EU children living in poverty is a good thing. And the UK leaving will help those children by? so what? We all go down together? It will help in the long term by hopefully seeing the end of the EU and the Euro. Or at the very least seeing some much needed reforms. How would you help? Personally I think we should open up our doors to some m ore refuges and economic migrants, but I doubt you would agree .... sadly, I see what many if these families have been through, so I couldn't say anything else because it is truly shocking. " Because open door policies are working in Germany , france where refugees and migrants are setting light to cars of the locals because they wont give them money to buy food .... even though they are being given free food from the relative governments they are already sponging off ! Turning once lovely parts of Paris/Berlin into the slums they have just left. The influx will certainly ruin Europe worse than any war ever could have done in the past. Before any more of my tax money is spent on predominantly young adult males coming in lets take care of the people born here living under the breadline | |||
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