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How many times?
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
How many times do the EU have to say there will be no negotiation on freedom of movement before May, Davis, Boris and Fox get the message? This has been repeated again today by the PM of Malta, and of course the heads of state of the 27 member states signed a joint declaration saying so just days after the referendum.
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us? |
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Yes, he said 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
I would have been a little bit surprised if he'd said ' We are bluffing, we'll probably move on it' .
But I'm not an international negotiator, so I can't be 100% sure..... |
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes, he said 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
I would have been a little bit surprised if he'd said ' We are bluffing, we'll probably move on it' .
But I'm not an international negotiator, so I can't be 100% sure....."
And what would they say if they really weren't bluffing, and they actually meant it? |
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"Yes, he said 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
I would have been a little bit surprised if he'd said ' We are bluffing, we'll probably move on it' .
But I'm not an international negotiator, so I can't be 100% sure.....
And what would they say if they really weren't bluffing, and they actually meant it? "
He'd say 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
Then you have to use skill , intelligence and experience to move forward.
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes, he said 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
I would have been a little bit surprised if he'd said ' We are bluffing, we'll probably move on it' .
But I'm not an international negotiator, so I can't be 100% sure.....
And what would they say if they really weren't bluffing, and they actually meant it?
He'd say 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
Then you have to use skill , intelligence and experience to move forward.
"
And what about the signed declaration by 27 heads of state, they would look quite stupid if they did that and then changed their minds wouldn't they? Politicians dont usually like to make themselves look stupid. |
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He'd say 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
Then you have to use skill , intelligence and experience to move forward.
And what about the signed declaration by 27 heads of state, they would look quite stupid if they did that and then changed their minds wouldn't they? Politicians dont usually like to make themselves look stupid."
Ok, let's just do what they say then. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
He'd say 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
Then you have to use skill , intelligence and experience to move forward.
And what about the signed declaration by 27 heads of state, they would look quite stupid if they did that and then changed their minds wouldn't they? Politicians dont usually like to make themselves look stupid.
Ok, let's just do what they say then."
The point is that the "running commentary" line is foolish. Every time a UK Minister says anything to a European Minister, the EU Minister then talks about it to the Press. There isn't even a negotiating position because the EU is made up of currently 27 other countries and they are not necessarily going to want to waste two years of their lives collectively or individually to give the UK a pat on the back for leaving. It is only here in the U.K. that the likes of May, Johnson and Davis think that they are living out the real pages of an international esionage drama.
I still don't think that we will leave the EU for all sorts of reasons, not least because by this time next year it will have quite possibly changed completely from the entity that the UK voted to leave. Win or lose, Marine Le Pen will likely influence the winning Govt to have their own EU referendum and Merkel will get at best a similar fright in Germany. The knock on effect of France and Germany questioning whether he future direction of the EU will be all the motivation needed for subsequent change of direction of the EU as a whole. |
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"How many times do the EU have to say there will be no negotiation on freedom of movement before May, Davis, Boris and Fox get the message? This has been repeated again today by the PM of Malta, and of course the heads of state of the 27 member states signed a joint declaration saying so just days after the referendum.
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us?"
The important point is that we are making a consistent message to the EU. People in the UK do not want free movement . That is why we voted to leave and our politicians are just making the wishes of the majority clear .
The countries in the EU that are so keen on free movement do not have to suffer the consequences of it. |
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He'd say 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
Then you have to use skill , intelligence and experience to move forward.
And what about the signed declaration by 27 heads of state, they would look quite stupid if they did that and then changed their minds wouldn't they? Politicians dont usually like to make themselves look stupid.
Ok, let's just do what they say then.
The point is that the "running commentary" line is foolish. Every time a UK Minister says anything to a European Minister, the EU Minister then talks about it to the Press. There isn't even a negotiating position because the EU is made up of currently 27 other countries and they are not necessarily going to want to waste two years of their lives collectively or individually to give the UK a pat on the back for leaving. It is only here in the U.K. that the likes of May, Johnson and Davis think that they are living out the real pages of an international esionage drama.
I still don't think that we will leave the EU for all sorts of reasons, not least because by this time next year it will have quite possibly changed completely from the entity that the UK voted to leave. Win or lose, Marine Le Pen will likely influence the winning Govt to have their own EU referendum and Merkel will get at best a similar fright in Germany. The knock on effect of France and Germany questioning whether he future direction of the EU will be all the motivation needed for subsequent change of direction of the EU as a whole."
Well, the EU are good at showing the correct face for a negotiation, and we have been poor at it. I'm sure details will be divulged, and they do that as part of the process.
Yes, we aren't the no1 priority, but there will be a large important job the EU will want doing well. Or they could just say, sod it go for full, hard Brexit. But I don't believe they want that.
I'm not saying a Le Pen victory is to be wished for in any way, that has its own set of problems. But you are right, there could well be a big rejig coming anyway. |
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The reality is is that you cannot have truly free trade without having free movement of people who, after all, are what create trade and the things we trade. This was made clear when May went to India asking them to look at a future free trade deal. Their answer was "yes but in return we want you to make it easier for Indians to come and live and work in the UK" |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us? The important point is that we are making a consistent message to the EU. People in the UK do not want free movement . That is why we voted to leave and our politicians are just making the wishes of the majority clear .
The countries in the EU that are so keen on free movement do not have to suffer the consequences of it. "
Firstly, a pedantic point but to correct you above *some* people in the UK do not want free movement. Specifically, a minority of the population expressed that they do not want free movement.
But besides that point, the problem is that you just can't look at it that simply. The media and politicians did a great job in convincing people that these issues can be selectively chosen and that the UK can decide exactly what it wants and the EU will allow it. And alas too many people in the UK believed this simplified scenario.
Even if you chose not to believe the data that EU immigration is a net financial positive to the UK. And even if you choose to believe that EU immigration has a detrimental effect to us socially and culturally... there are so many many aspects of us leaving the EU that many people just were not aware of.
-Matt |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"How many times do the EU have to say there will be no negotiation on freedom of movement before May, Davis, Boris and Fox get the message? This has been repeated again today by the PM of Malta, and of course the heads of state of the 27 member states signed a joint declaration saying so just days after the referendum.
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us?"
so you agree they will talk about it then ?
David Davies had talks with the eu chief negotiator this week so despite what some remoaners say about NO talks before art 50 they are already doing the groundwork |
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"
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us? The important point is that we are making a consistent message to the EU. People in the UK do not want free movement . That is why we voted to leave and our politicians are just making the wishes of the majority clear .
The countries in the EU that are so keen on free movement do not have to suffer the consequences of it.
Firstly, a pedantic point but to correct you above *some* people in the UK do not want free movement. Specifically, a minority of the population expressed that they do not want free movement.
But besides that point, the problem is that you just can't look at it that simply. The media and politicians did a great job in convincing people that these issues can be selectively chosen and that the UK can decide exactly what it wants and the EU will allow it. And alas too many people in the UK believed this simplified scenario.
Even if you chose not to believe the data that EU immigration is a net financial positive to the UK. And even if you choose to believe that EU immigration has a detrimental effect to us socially and culturally... there are so many many aspects of us leaving the EU that many people just were not aware of.
-Matt"
Well said  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I still don't think that we will leave the EU for all sorts of reasons, not least because by this time next year it will have quite possibly changed completely from the entity that the UK voted to leave. Win or lose, Marine Le Pen will likely influence the winning Govt to have their own EU referendum and Merkel will get at best a similar fright in Germany. The knock on effect of France and Germany questioning whether he future direction of the EU will be all the motivation needed for subsequent change of direction of the EU as a whole."
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See!!!.... We don't disagree on everything  |
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"How many times do the EU have to say there will be no negotiation on freedom of movement before May, Davis, Boris and Fox get the message? This has been repeated again today by the PM of Malta, and of course the heads of state of the 27 member states signed a joint declaration saying so just days after the referendum.
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us?
so you agree they will talk about it then ?
David Davies had talks with the eu chief negotiator this week so despite what some remoaners say about NO talks before art 50 they are already doing the groundwork"
I'm an out and out Remainer but I have to say, Mr Davies is going to have been on top form to deal with all the other countries and the EU institutions. He will need a skin thicker than a rhinos to deal with all the knock backs from them and for all of the abuse he will get from the Leavers when he can't live up to their inflated expectations. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
David Davies had talks with the eu chief negotiator this week so despite what some remoaners say about NO talks before art 50 they are already doing the groundwork"
That is the position of the EU and (I believe) a part of Article 50 itself. Nothing to do with what any UK citizens (remain or leave) say.
I voted to remain, but would be quite happy for negotiations to start as soon as possible. Not that a few months will make any difference. There is no way in hell we are going to get everything negotiated in 10 years let alone 2.
-Matt |
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There will be a negotiation, or the EU wouldn't bother with a negotiation team.
The Uk team will have to get the deal that closest matches their perceived description of 'Brexit'.
A started point of 'they will give us fuck-all' doesn't suit anybody, regardless of how they voted. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I'm an out and out Remainer but I have to say, Mr Davies is going to have been on top form to deal with all the other countries and the EU institutions. He will need a skin thicker than a rhinos to deal with all the knock backs from them and for all of the abuse he will get from the Leavers when he can't live up to their inflated expectations. "
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Germany run the EU purse strings always have done, what the leaders of Slovakia, Hungary or Poland have to say is pretty much meaningless!.
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"
I'm an out and out Remainer but I have to say, Mr Davies is going to have been on top form to deal with all the other countries and the EU institutions. He will need a skin thicker than a rhinos to deal with all the knock backs from them and for all of the abuse he will get from the Leavers when he can't live up to their inflated expectations. .
Germany run the EU purse strings always have done, what the leaders of Slovakia, Hungary or Poland have to say is pretty much meaningless!.
"
Not really meaningless is it though when a supermajority of the EU members have to agree on the proposal put forward by the UK?
-Matt |
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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"
David Davies had talks with the eu chief negotiator this week so despite what some remoaners say about NO talks before art 50 they are already doing the groundwork"
Yes they talked, but they didn't negotiate anything. Instead they had to clear up crap like why our chief negotiator had seemingly called their chief negotiator "Satan" 
So the talk before the negotiations will be things like how many meetings will there be, where will they be held, who will attend, what sandwiches will there be, should we talk about passports for cattle, or the environment first? Fishing or financial regulations etc. UK/Eire border or regulations about vacuum cleaners. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I'm an out and out Remainer but I have to say, Mr Davies is going to have been on top form to deal with all the other countries and the EU institutions. He will need a skin thicker than a rhinos to deal with all the knock backs from them and for all of the abuse he will get from the Leavers when he can't live up to their inflated expectations. .
Germany run the EU purse strings always have done, what the leaders of Slovakia, Hungary or Poland have to say is pretty much meaningless!.
Not really meaningless is it though when a supermajority of the EU members have to agree on the proposal put forward by the UK?
-Matt"
.
In reality it is, if Germany say jump, they say how high, that's how it works.
Obviously you get input of dialogue but the "show" is run by money for the purpose of making money...... Of course any individual member state is free to disagree, like Greece did but your also free to get the shit kicked out of you for disagreeing |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I stand somewhere in the middle.
Yes freedom of movement is currently an EU principle - but as someone has said already on here, the political landscape of the EU and of European sovereign parliaments is one of hard left and right parties gaining ground.
I don't think Le Pen and the AfD will become national leaders, and I think Austria will go hard right in their upcoming GE, but definitely I think Le Pen and the AfD will become king makers and policy influences in their national parliaments.
As such, I think the EU will have to adapt or it will be the architect of its own destruction.
I short free movement of unskilled labour might be a principle which is compromised on.
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"
I'm an out and out Remainer but I have to say, Mr Davies is going to have been on top form to deal with all the other countries and the EU institutions. He will need a skin thicker than a rhinos to deal with all the knock backs from them and for all of the abuse he will get from the Leavers when he can't live up to their inflated expectations. .
Germany run the EU purse strings always have done, what the leaders of Slovakia, Hungary or Poland have to say is pretty much meaningless!.
Not really meaningless is it though when a supermajority of the EU members have to agree on the proposal put forward by the UK?
-Matt.
In reality it is, if Germany say jump, they say how high, that's how it works.
Obviously you get input of dialogue but the "show" is run by money for the purpose of making money...... Of course any individual member state is free to disagree, like Greece did but your also free to get the shit kicked out of you for disagreeing"
Yet another BREXIT lie that distorts the truth. The EU does not say 'how high' when ever the Germans say 'jump'. Most decisions are made by the EU on a system called "Qualified Majority Voting". For a proposal to pass it most be supported by at least 55% of the member states (that works out at 16 of the current 28: Germany has the same weight as every other member in that regard, which is 1/28th) or by support from member states that represent 65% of the total EU population (Germany has a population of 80 million out of an EU population of 510 million: That gives Germany about 15% of the total). So there is no way Germany, or any other member state, can just simply have their own way with out the support of quite a few other member states.
The Greek scenario is also misleading to. The Greek people may have voted for Germany and the EU to pay for their continued over expenditure on social services and unwillingness to collect the taxes to support their expenditure from the Greek people. Unfortunately for the Greeks, it's the votes of the people who are going to pay (the people of the EU) that were required and they were not convinced that giving Greece even more money was going to actually help Greece or its finances in the long term. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How many times do the EU have to say there will be no negotiation on freedom of movement before May, Davis, Boris and Fox get the message? This has been repeated again today by the PM of Malta, and of course the heads of state of the 27 member states signed a joint declaration saying so just days after the referendum.
Why do the politicans think that the EU will abandon their principles, when the UK seemingly won't, no matter how much it costs us?"
We Don't need to Negotiate Anything !
Just Leave !
Things will sort out for themselves ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes, he said 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
I would have been a little bit surprised if he'd said ' We are bluffing, we'll probably move on it' .
But I'm not an international negotiator, so I can't be 100% sure.....
And what would they say if they really weren't bluffing, and they actually meant it?
He'd say 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
Then you have to use skill , intelligence and experience to move forward.
And what about the signed declaration by 27 heads of state, they would look quite stupid if they did that and then changed their minds wouldn't they? Politicians dont usually like to make themselves look stupid."
Heads of government not Heads of State. It isn't semantics this time. In most European countries, the Head of State is ceremonial.
Heads of government, and governments themselves, change and policy changes with them. There are numerous elections in the forthcoming year right across Europe, so Merkel as head of the German federation might well have signed this now, but she might not be the Chancellor after the next elections. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes, he said 'We're not bluffing, that is our fixed position' .
I would have been a little bit surprised if he'd said ' We are bluffing, we'll probably move on it' .
But I'm not an international negotiator, so I can't be 100% sure.....
And what would they say if they really weren't bluffing, and they actually meant it? "
I hope they do mean it..... |
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