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Current Brexit situation according to the FT
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"All very funny but last time I looked David Davis, Liam Fox, and Boris were still in the leave camp. Or have I missed something while I was reading about the British economy growing faster than any other in the G7? ". It's becoming increasingly difficult to see how the euro zone are going to generate any substantial growth at all without either busting EU regulations on deficit ratios or breaking up the euro itself..... It just doesn't fit or work for the majority of them and without the ability to print money and generate some vital inflation they just won't get out of the slump there in, the imposed austerity is contacting gdp,increasing the debt and stifling inflation the very opposite of what they need to get out of the problem of bank bailouts! | |||
"All very funny but last time I looked David Davis, Liam Fox, and Boris were still in the leave camp. Or have I missed something while I was reading about the British economy growing faster than any other in the G7? .
It's becoming increasingly difficult to see how the euro zone are going to generate any substantial growth at all without either busting EU regulations on deficit ratios or breaking up the euro itself..... It just doesn't fit or work for the majority of them and without the ability to print money and generate some vital inflation they just won't get out of the slump there in, the imposed austerity is contacting gdp,increasing the debt and stifling inflation the very opposite of what they need to get out of the problem of bank bailouts!"As I've been saying for years but the powers that be seem hell bent on kicking the can down the road with some Micawberish idea that something will turn up. It will. On December 4th and will bite them hard on the arse. | |||
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"i thought it was a brilliant summary when i read it earlier... to give credit where credit is due... it wasn't the FT that penned it, it was someone who wrote to the FT's Letters section.... still think the bloke deserves a medal though!!! "For comedy value maybe. There is nothing wrong with the wit. Pity it bears no resemblance to reality. Please tell me when Davis, Fox, and Johnson became remainers. | |||
"All very funny but last time I looked David Davis, Liam Fox, and Boris were still in the leave camp. Or have I missed something while I was reading about the British economy growing faster than any other in the G7? "Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant.  | |||
"All very funny but last time I looked David Davis, Liam Fox, and Boris were still in the leave camp. Or have I missed something while I was reading about the British economy growing faster than any other in the G7?
Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant. "Davis and Patel can talk the talk well. I don't agree with them but they can debate their corner well. But bring Foolish Fox and Joker Johnson into it isn't really going to help your case. It was a very funny piece of satire in a news paper. It's about as much of an in depth analysis of the situation as the Beano. | |||
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" Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant. "Patel is a Leaver. She wants the influx of Eastern Europeans to be replaced by South Asians. | |||
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" Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant.
Patel is a Leaver. She wants the influx of Eastern Europeans to be replaced by South Asians."Yes I saw Patel in that Andrew Neil interview as well, and I also saw Oliver Letwin state in the House that we can turn to the Commonwealth to bring in migrants to take up any slack in our workforce. What a disappointment for those that based their vote solely on immigration.....and there were many of them. | |||
" Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant.
Patel is a Leaver. She wants the influx of Eastern Europeans to be replaced by South Asians.
Yes I saw Patel in that Andrew Neil interview as well, and I also saw Oliver Letwin state in the House that we can turn to the Commonwealth to bring in migrants to take up any slack in our workforce.
What a disappointment for those that based their vote solely on immigration.....and there were many of them."From the vast majority or leave voters I know nearly all based it solely on stopping immigration entirely & the question of trade implications brushed away or just a blank stare | |||
" Yes I saw Patel in that Andrew Neil interview as well, and I also saw Oliver Letwin state in the House that we can turn to the Commonwealth to bring in migrants to take up any slack in our workforce. What a disappointment for those that based their vote solely on immigration.....and there were many of them." Now I am absolutely not going to tar all Brexiters as idiots etc. not least because I think am the only member of my family that voted remain BUT I do wonder how many voted brexit thinking it would stop Pakistanis and Bangladeshis coming here... | |||
" Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant.
Patel is a Leaver. She wants the influx of Eastern Europeans to be replaced by South Asians.
Yes I saw Patel in that Andrew Neil interview as well, and I also saw Oliver Letwin state in the House that we can turn to the Commonwealth to bring in migrants to take up any slack in our workforce.
What a disappointment for those that based their vote solely on immigration.....and there were many of them."I thought what people voted for was border control and tightly controlled immigration as is the case in other countries . This is very different to saying that there would be no immigration . I cannot see to many people being too disappointed with the result . Others saw our contribution to the EU as being a total waste of money and money that would be better spent in the UK | |||
" Now I am absolutely not going to tar all Brexiters as idiots etc. " Let me correct myself, that came across much worse than I intended. Most brexiters are not idiots. Just wrong. | |||
" Yes I saw Patel in that Andrew Neil interview as well, and I also saw Oliver Letwin state in the House that we can turn to the Commonwealth to bring in migrants to take up any slack in our workforce. What a disappointment for those that based their vote solely on immigration.....and there were many of them. Now I am absolutely not going to tar all Brexiters as idiots etc. not least because I think am the only member of my family that voted remain BUT I do wonder how many voted brexit thinking it would stop Pakistanis and Bangladeshis coming here..." Well there were some who voted to "stop the Muslims coming  | |||
" Priti Patel another one but don't let facts get in the way of a good Remoaner rant.
Patel is a Leaver. She wants the influx of Eastern Europeans to be replaced by South Asians.
Yes I saw Patel in that Andrew Neil interview as well, and I also saw Oliver Letwin state in the House that we can turn to the Commonwealth to bring in migrants to take up any slack in our workforce.
What a disappointment for those that based their vote solely on immigration.....and there were many of them.
I thought what people voted for was border control and tightly controlled immigration as is the case in other countries .
This is very different to saying that there would be no immigration .
I cannot see to many people being too disappointed with the result .
Others saw our contribution to the EU as being a total waste of money and money that would be better spent in the UK "Well Pat we know you are a big fan of the daily mail, so perhaps you have already read this. I assume by "tightly controlled" you mean over all numbers reduced? Well it turns out the Vote Leave camp didn't mean that at all. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659802/Tory-Brexiteer-Dan-Hannan-insists-quitting-EU-does-NOT-mean-dramatic-cuts-number-immigrants-coming-Britain.html | |||
" I thought what people voted for was border control and tightly controlled immigration as is the case in other countries . This is very different to saying that there would be no immigration . I cannot see to many people being too disappointed with the result . Others saw our contribution to the EU as being a total waste of money and money that would be better spent in the UK " 1) Brexiers suggest that leaving the EU will promote a surge in UK productivity and that it will be a trigger for our economy to boom as the rest of the world is opened up for British exports. Where will the people come from to fuel this boom? Tightly controlling economic migration (as you put it) is simply an unnecessary stranglehold to organic growth. 2) The country has already lost at least ten years worth of EU payments and unlike the EU payments that nobody actually felt, the impact of inflation that is coming down the tracks will be felt most by those who cannot really afford it. The truth is that Brexit was a fantasy that is turning into a Brexshit reality and A50 has not even been invoked yet. | |||
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"i thought it was a brilliant summary when i read it earlier... to give credit where credit is due... it wasn't the FT that penned it, it was someone who wrote to the FT's Letters section.... still think the bloke deserves a medal though!!!
For comedy value maybe. There is nothing wrong with the wit.
Pity it bears no resemblance to reality.
Please tell me when Davis, Fox, and Johnson became remainers."Johnson was always a remainer; he just changed sides because he thought he could get to be PM easier that way. He doesn't actually believe in anything apart from treating life as if it's some 5 th form school prank. | |||
"From the FT... Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?” Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it” Remainers “But it’s not possible!” Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.” Remainers “And do what exactly?” Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it” Remainers “But it’s not possible!” Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.” Remainers “But even you don’t know how!” Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.” Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?” Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.” Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts” Leavers “Remain experts.” Remainers “There are no Leave experts” Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.” Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!” Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.” Remainers “You’re delusional.” Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”" Of course, our country would have been perfect had it voted to remain... | |||
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"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against " Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? | |||
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"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? " Only until we get priced out of the market by tariffs and a cheaper alternative is found from eastern Europe or the far east. Bear in mind that tariffs get charged both ways and are ultimately charged to the end user. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? " Do you even know how much Brexit has actually cost the Country so far and we haven't even triggered A50 yet ? The extra incentive to buy from the UK now Sterling has dropped through the floor is just a drop in the ocean compared to the fiscal policies cost that have had to be done to try and steady the economy, nor are you taking into account the large increase in costs importing our own goods now that Sterling buys less Dollars which will drive up our manufactured goods next year when the higher costs of raw materials will filter in. All in all Brexit has cost us around 15 years of EU membership costs already and we don't have a clue what's going to happen regarding anything to do with Europe yet. So the slight increase in exporting is just pointless in the bigger picture. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? " I really feel after reading this that many people haven't grasped the reality of the situation, your judgement is clouded. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against " I don't buy in to the "better the devil you know" philosophy. Neither did the majority of the public who voted. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against I don't buy in to the "better the devil you know" philosophy. Neither did the majority of the public who voted." Everybody knows that the EU has serious structure problems to be resolved, but at least they are making progress towards our collective economic growth. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? Only until we get priced out of the market by tariffs and a cheaper alternative is found from eastern Europe or the far east. Bear in mind that tariffs get charged both ways and are ultimately charged to the end user." As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? Only until we get priced out of the market by tariffs and a cheaper alternative is found from eastern Europe or the far east. Bear in mind that tariffs get charged both ways and are ultimately charged to the end user.As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us." Really?! Have you never bought anything online from outside the EU? From the US or far east at all? On a macroscopic scale these things might come close to cancelling out, but as a consumer I'm still going to get whacked with a VAT charge, a customs charge, and a 'handling fee' from the courier for the pleasure. -Matt | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? Only until we get priced out of the market by tariffs and a cheaper alternative is found from eastern Europe or the far east. Bear in mind that tariffs get charged both ways and are ultimately charged to the end user.As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us." Never mind that we import far more than we export. Let's just ignore that awkward fact and continue to assert post truth fantasies. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? Only until we get priced out of the market by tariffs and a cheaper alternative is found from eastern Europe or the far east. Bear in mind that tariffs get charged both ways and are ultimately charged to the end user.As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us." But we import more than we export! | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us." That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against Why would we be in a better position if we remained. ? People will still be buying our goods and services ? Only until we get priced out of the market by tariffs and a cheaper alternative is found from eastern Europe or the far east. Bear in mind that tariffs get charged both ways and are ultimately charged to the end user.As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. Really?! Have you never bought anything online from outside the EU? From the US or far east at all? On a macroscopic scale these things might come close to cancelling out, but as a consumer I'm still going to get whacked with a VAT charge, a customs charge, and a 'handling fee' from the courier for the pleasure. -Matt" My post ended at 'end user' It was Pat who said 'as tariff cancels etc' | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse." Exactly | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse." So why do the eu want to impose them then ? As they sell us twice as much as we sell them who is going to lose out most ? and as the pound as dropped around 10% against the euro the goods they buy from us wont change that much even with tariffs, | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. So why do the eu want to impose them then ? As they sell us twice as much as we sell them who is going to lose out most ? and as the pound as dropped around 10% against the euro the goods they buy from us wont change that much even with tariffs, " For some strange reason, the EU will not accept us within the common market unless we cede to freedom of movement. Ah, yes, they don't want to be seen condoning an exit that might just encourage other countries to leave. Tells you all you need to know about the EU. | |||
"Maybe not perfect but a whole lot better position than we are now which only a massively insane person could even start to comprehend to argue against I don't buy in to the "better the devil you know" philosophy. Neither did the majority of the public who voted." You don't have too, but at least we knew where we stood staying in the EU We had a decent economic growth which WILL slow as raw material prices, food, utilities costs rise next year due to our knackared Pound. We were working towards reducing our national deficit which has been quite painful so far but that's been totally screwed over now since we're having to borrow / pay out BILLIONS extra because of Brexit. and that's only 2 things.... Thing is, there are hard facts that we're in a far worse situation NOW because of Brexit.... There are NO, ZERO, NADA facts that show or even faintly point in the direction that we are now in a better situation because of Brexit.. So far Brexit has cost billions Also yes you're right the majority of the country voted Brexit, but people bash on about this majority as if it was a 90 / 10 split....it wasn't that far evens, only a slim majority | |||
" For some strange reason, the EU will not accept us within the common market unless we cede to freedom of movement. Ah, yes, they don't want to be seen condoning an exit that might just encourage other countries to leave. Tells you all you need to know about the EU." That 'strange reason' being because freedom of trade and freedom of movement of workers are intrinsically linked. If you had free trade without free movement, then a company could decide to relocate its production to the cheapest location in the EU and workers could not follow them. Due to free trade it wouldn't matter where they are as they could sell to wherever without any restrictions. The EU was designed with the four freedoms linked together. We can decide we don't want to be a part of that, that is fine. But for us to say "Right, we are leaving... but can we just keep the bits we like and not our other responsibilities" isn't really on. If we don't want to play by the rules of the EU then that is fine. We leave the EU. We are the one thorwing the temper tantrum because we can't have our pudding without eating our dinner. And I think it is perfectly reasonable for the EU to insist we do. -Matt | |||
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"I vote Matt for President "Sod that... I prefer to spend my time shagging rather than negotiating with foreign super powers. -Matt | |||
" For some strange reason, the EU will not accept us within the common market unless we cede to freedom of movement. Ah, yes, they don't want to be seen condoning an exit that might just encourage other countries to leave. Tells you all you need to know about the EU. That 'strange reason' being because freedom of trade and freedom of movement of workers are intrinsically linked. If you had free trade without free movement, then a company could decide to relocate its production to the cheapest location in the EU and workers could not follow them. -Matt" So, if my employer relocated to Poland, I could keep my job? Great but I don't think I could cope with that commute. | |||
" For some strange reason, the EU will not accept us within the common market unless we cede to freedom of movement. Ah, yes, they don't want to be seen condoning an exit that might just encourage other countries to leave. Tells you all you need to know about the EU. That 'strange reason' being because freedom of trade and freedom of movement of workers are intrinsically linked. If you had free trade without free movement, then a company could decide to relocate its production to the cheapest location in the EU and workers could not follow them. -Matt So, if my employer relocated to Poland, I could keep my job? Great but I don't think I could cope with that commute." Exactly. If your employer relocated to Poland then under free movement of workers you have the right to relocate there and work there too. -Matt | |||
" For some strange reason, the EU will not accept us within the common market unless we cede to freedom of movement. Ah, yes, they don't want to be seen condoning an exit that might just encourage other countries to leave. Tells you all you need to know about the EU. That 'strange reason' being because freedom of trade and freedom of movement of workers are intrinsically linked. If you had free trade without free movement, then a company could decide to relocate its production to the cheapest location in the EU and workers could not follow them. -Matt So, if my employer relocated to Poland, I could keep my job? Great but I don't think I could cope with that commute. Exactly. If your employer relocated to Poland then under free movement of workers you have the right to relocate there and work there too. -Matt" Yippee. Now I truly understand the important principle. | |||
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" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland." Surely they all moved? A common trading market would not work otherwise. Good year at the office, darling? | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland." Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt" And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point. | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point." It didn't Turkey is not a part of the EU. -Matt | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point. It didn't Turkey is not a part of the EU. -Matt" And if it had located to, say, Poland? | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland." If you are worried about cheap labour in Poland taking British jobs, then why is the post Brexit economy based on free trade with countries like China and India? | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point. It didn't Turkey is not a part of the EU. -Matt And if it had located to, say, Poland?" OK, so if a company was able to move location, but workers were stuck then unable to move, then in order to try and prevent the loss of jobs the workers would have to lower their demanded wages in order to keep the company there. The fact that workers are free to move around the EU in response to the demand of the labour market means that the market is not one-sided in favour of the employers. Or looking from the other side, say, another country, e.g. Germany were offering a substantially higher wage for a given job than the UK then there would be an incentive for workers to move to Germany and hence pressure on the UK market to offer a wage high enough to prevent that. -Matt | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. If you are worried about cheap labour in Poland taking British jobs, then why is the post Brexit economy based on free trade with countries like China and India? " Son't worry, May made it very clear that they wouldn't be allowed into the country. Hence why her trade mission to Indian recently was such a disaster. May, Johnston, Davis all seem to be sllightly surpised that when they insult other countries that negotiations are a bit tricker. -Matt | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point. It didn't Turkey is not a part of the EU. -Matt And if it had located to, say, Poland? OK, so if a company was able to move location, but workers were stuck then unable to move, then in order to try and prevent the loss of jobs the workers would have to lower their demanded wages in order to keep the company there. The fact that workers are free to move around the EU in response to the demand of the labour market means that the market is not one-sided in favour of the employers. Or looking from the other side, say, another country, e.g. Germany were offering a substantially higher wage for a given job than the UK then there would be an incentive for workers to move to Germany and hence pressure on the UK market to offer a wage high enough to prevent that. -Matt" Ah, yes, "free to move." I'll just desert my commitments here then, sell my house, leave my family and ... Free trade, I understand, but not the "intrinsic" link to frreeom of trade that you talk about. | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point. It didn't Turkey is not a part of the EU. -Matt And if it had located to, say, Poland? OK, so if a company was able to move location, but workers were stuck then unable to move, then in order to try and prevent the loss of jobs the workers would have to lower their demanded wages in order to keep the company there. The fact that workers are free to move around the EU in response to the demand of the labour market means that the market is not one-sided in favour of the employers. Or looking from the other side, say, another country, e.g. Germany were offering a substantially higher wage for a given job than the UK then there would be an incentive for workers to move to Germany and hence pressure on the UK market to offer a wage high enough to prevent that. -Matt Ah, yes, "free to move." I'll just desert my commitments here then, sell my house, leave my family and ... Free trade, I understand, but not the "intrinsic" link to frreeom of trade that you talk about." Exactly. Just like many many other people across the EU have done. You just happen to live in a country the is currently near the 'top of the pile'. If you look it up online you will probabaly find much better explainations than I am able to articulate. But in short, restating what I said above, if the goods and services and move easier than the workers that creates imbalance to the detriment of the workers. -Matt | |||
" I seem to remember Ford Motor Company relocating to Poland but I doubt anyone in Dagenham moved to Poland. Your memory doesn't serve you well then. You might be mis-remembering Cadbury being brought by Kraft who had a factory in Poland. Or you might be thinking of Ford getting an EU loan to increase production of the Transit in Turkey and shutting down their Southampton plant. Either way, you miss the point. The fact that workers, goods, capital and services all have the *right* to move across the EU means that you don't end up with a race to the bottom as everything just shifts to the cheapest location without allowing a migration of workers to balance it out. -Matt And when the Ford Transit production facility in Southampton closed, just how exactly did the "migration of workers" balance it out? I am afraid that I too have missed your point. It didn't Turkey is not a part of the EU. -Matt And if it had located to, say, Poland? OK, so if a company was able to move location, but workers were stuck then unable to move, then in order to try and prevent the loss of jobs the workers would have to lower their demanded wages in order to keep the company there. The fact that workers are free to move around the EU in response to the demand of the labour market means that the market is not one-sided in favour of the employers. Or looking from the other side, say, another country, e.g. Germany were offering a substantially higher wage for a given job than the UK then there would be an incentive for workers to move to Germany and hence pressure on the UK market to offer a wage high enough to prevent that. -Matt Ah, yes, "free to move." I'll just desert my commitments here then, sell my house, leave my family and ... Free trade, I understand, but not the "intrinsic" link to frreeom of trade that you talk about. Exactly. Just like many many other people across the EU have done. You just happen to live in a country the is currently near the 'top of the pile'. If you look it up online you will probabaly find much better explainations than I am able to articulate. But in short, restating what I said above, if the goods and services and move easier than the workers that creates imbalance to the detriment of the workers. -Matt" Makes no sense to me whatsoever. I am afraid that your argument holds no water for me. | |||
" Makes no sense to me whatsoever. I am afraid that your argument holds no water for me." Fair enough. -Matt | |||
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"Half the world's population lives on less than $2 a day. These are the people that May and Boris and Farage and Fox etc. tell you are going to buy our wonder British goods and services. It's not true. They can't afford it. British workers by law can't compete at those wages even if they wanted to. What they will do is undercut British workers and drive employers to relocate businesses or production facilities to drive down costs and drive up profit margins. Their already cheap goods, will become even cheaper when we remove tariff barriers with them as we sign free trade agreements. At the moment, we have common sets of regulations with other EU members which keep standards as well as costs high. These new countries do not have anywhere near the levels of regulations we have, so they will be able to sell their lower quality goods to us, whilst the Great Repeal Act will require British businesses to continue to maintain those high standards which will serve to further price our goods out of the market compared to these developing countries." And the freedom of movement argument? We seem to have got stuck on that one. | |||
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"Take a look at one of the more vocal 'Leave' business owners James Dyson.....happy enough to take government R&D grants and various EU grants to start up his business, then no sooner does he have a couple of products that the nation fall in love with than he moves his production overseas..... The reason?, the vast majority of British manufacturing of small goods simply cannot compete with overseas manufacturing because of labour costs in the Far East. " However he still enoloys a signicicant number of workers in the UK where he has his reseach facility . We should be very greatfull for all that he has achieved and his inventions . I am buying on of his products to morrow . | |||
"Take a look at one of the more vocal 'Leave' business owners James Dyson.....happy enough to take government R&D grants and various EU grants to start up his business, then no sooner does he have a couple of products that the nation fall in love with than he moves his production overseas..... The reason?, the vast majority of British manufacturing of small goods simply cannot compete with overseas manufacturing because of labour costs in the Far East. " And freedom of movement within the EU? I remain puzzled. | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. So why do the eu want to impose them then ? As they sell us twice as much as we sell them who is going to lose out most ? and as the pound as dropped around 10% against the euro the goods they buy from us wont change that much even with tariffs, " The loss to us would be greater as we export nearly 50% of our exports to the EU while they export only about 10% to us. The actual amount of trade is far less important when it comes to who'll be hurt the most than the relative amounts of trade. As for the drop in the pound. If it persists then that will push up the costs of the supply chain and other essentials such as food and fuel, leading directly to higher wage demands. No country in the history of the modern world has been able to sustain a long term export boost based on currency devalueation. After an initial sort term boost it all cancels out and all you end up with is higher inflation. If it doesn't persist (and if the world thinks the economy is going to be either good or OK post BREXIT it won't) then, apart from the immediate short term export boost, it's irrelevant. In the end there is only one way to increase your exports and that is by being more competitive through higher productivity and reducing trade barriers between yourself and your markets. BREXIT is at best neutral on productivity and harmful to reducing barriers between us and our largest market. There is no upside in terms of trade. | |||
"Take a look at one of the more vocal 'Leave' business owners James Dyson.....happy enough to take government R&D grants and various EU grants to start up his business, then no sooner does he have a couple of products that the nation fall in love with than he moves his production overseas..... The reason?, the vast majority of British manufacturing of small goods simply cannot compete with overseas manufacturing because of labour costs in the Far East. And freedom of movement within the EU? I remain puzzled." As I said above, look it up then. There are plenty of explanations that are probably more articulate than mine. -Matt | |||
"Take a look at one of the more vocal 'Leave' business owners James Dyson.....happy enough to take government R&D grants and various EU grants to start up his business, then no sooner does he have a couple of products that the nation fall in love with than he moves his production overseas..... The reason?, the vast majority of British manufacturing of small goods simply cannot compete with overseas manufacturing because of labour costs in the Far East. And freedom of movement within the EU? I remain puzzled. As I said above, look it up then. There are plenty of explanations that are probably more articulate than mine. -Matt" I did and I am still at a loss. | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse." If we negototiate a sensible deal the tariffs will cancel each other out. Are you saying that out negotiating skills are below par and that we will allow other countries to impose unreasonable terms on us . I prefer to take a positive approach , not to be a predictor of gloomy scenarios . | |||
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"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. If we negototiate a sensible deal the tariffs will cancel each other out. Are you saying that out negotiating skills are below par and that we will allow other countries to impose unreasonable terms on us . I prefer to take a positive approach , not to be a predictor of gloomy scenarios . " Pat, there WILL be tarriffs between the time we leave the EU, and the time we sign a free trade agreement, probably 7 years later. So that is guaranteed tariffs, for years. We have already been told this. You seem to be ignoring it because its inconvenient to your view of the world. | |||
"Are you saying that out negotiating skills are below par and that we will allow other countries to impose unreasonable terms on us " Well, wasn't it said that we had the grand total of 3 international trade negotiators in the UK? Even if this is somewhat understating the actual number, and even if each one of them is the best in the world at it, to me that means that the sum of our negotiating skills is very much below par. The term grossly inadequate for the job ahead seems more appropriate, however. | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. If we negototiate a sensible deal the tariffs will cancel each other out. Are you saying that out negotiating skills are below par and that we will allow other countries to impose unreasonable terms on us . I prefer to take a positive approach , not to be a predictor of gloomy scenarios . " Tariffs never cancel each other out, they simply compound together to make things worse. And yes, our negotiating skills on free trade agreements is well below par We've not negotiated one for 40 years whilst everyone we want to do one with, including the EU, has been negotiating them for years. The fact that we are currently throwing away the best free trade deal in the world, one that other members of the EU and the world would give an arm and a leg for, shows just how below par the understanding of trade and trade negotiations really is. | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. If we negototiate a sensible deal the tariffs will cancel each other out. Are you saying that out negotiating skills are below par and that we will allow other countries to impose unreasonable terms on us . I prefer to take a positive approach , not to be a predictor of gloomy scenarios . " We have just voted to leave the largest free trade movement in the world......yet you believe that things will actually get better when we stumble our way through lengthy trade negotiations? My brother in law has lived in Australia for a decade, he says that the Australian media think Britain is raving mad.....that we are so caught up in our 'little englander' mindset that we are the laughing stock of Europe. I'm finding it hard to disagree with him, even though I try my best to defend the country I love. | |||
"As tariff cancel out they should have no impact on us. That has to be the most economically illiterate comment I've heard ever! The impact of tariffs would be double double whammy on the negative. It increases the cost of our goods abroad and increases the cost of foreign goods to use. If costs for both are higher that inevitably leads to less trade between us and the EU. Less trade leads to less goods being produced which leads to less jobs for people both here and in the EU. Less jobs leads to less people with money to spend which leads to less demand for goods and services, which leads to even less trade. The tariffs don't cancel each other out, they actually compound to make the situation worse. If we negototiate a sensible deal the tariffs will cancel each other out. Are you saying that out negotiating skills are below par and that we will allow other countries to impose unreasonable terms on us . I prefer to take a positive approach , not to be a predictor of gloomy scenarios . We have just voted to leave the largest free trade movement in the world......yet you believe that things will actually get better when we stumble our way through lengthy trade negotiations? My brother in law has lived in Australia for a decade, he says that the Australian media think Britain is raving mad.....that we are so caught up in our 'little englander' mindset that we are the laughing stock of Europe. I'm finding it hard to disagree with him, even though I try my best to defend the country I love." We have had free trade with our closest neighbors for the last 40 years, but we just voted to leave it, because we love free trade so much.... | |||
"We have just voted to leave the largest free trade movement in the world......yet you believe that things will actually get better when we stumble our way through lengthy trade negotiations? My brother in law has lived in Australia for a decade, he says that the Australian media think Britain is raving mad.....that we are so caught up in our 'little englander' mindset that we are the laughing stock of Europe. I'm finding it hard to disagree with him, even though I try my best to defend the country I love." The whole argument seems to be that we have something (no one's really managed to say what yet) here that is so good people will be desperate to do free trade deals with us to get it. Can't see it myself! | |||
"We have had free trade with our closest neighbors for the last 40 years, but we just voted to leave it, because we love free trade so much.... "And then look what India did, linked free trade to increased movement of their citizens. Didn't see that one coming did we? Where exactly is all this free trade going to be with? | |||
"We have had free trade with our closest neighbors for the last 40 years, but we just voted to leave it, because we love free trade so much....
And then look what India did, linked free trade to increased movement of their citizens.
Didn't see that one coming did we?
Where exactly is all this free trade going to be with?"Mostly with nations who's citizens can't afford to buy the stuff we churn out...... | |||
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"A few years ago that paragon of virtue and leading Brexiteers Anthony Bamford laid off 2400 men and women in British factories where they manufactured his JCB diggers, within three months he has moved three quarters of his machinery production to India, then he laid off another 350 British workers and moved their hub of manufacturing expertise to China...... These hypocrites, including the wonderful James Dyson were there for all to see heralding the benefits of leaving the European single market, yet abandoned British workers by double crossing them by moving production overseas..... Stinking hypocrites" Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . | |||
"A few years ago that paragon of virtue and leading Brexiteers Anthony Bamford laid off 2400 men and women in British factories where they manufactured his JCB diggers, within three months he has moved three quarters of his machinery production to India, then he laid off another 350 British workers and moved their hub of manufacturing expertise to China...... These hypocrites, including the wonderful James Dyson were there for all to see heralding the benefits of leaving the European single market, yet abandoned British workers by double crossing them by moving production overseas..... Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . " They abandoned British workers by moving production overseas, they are hypocrites. | |||
"A few years ago that paragon of virtue and leading Brexiteers Anthony Bamford laid off 2400 men and women in British factories where they manufactured his JCB diggers, within three months he has moved three quarters of his machinery production to India, then he laid off another 350 British workers and moved their hub of manufacturing expertise to China...... These hypocrites, including the wonderful James Dyson were there for all to see heralding the benefits of leaving the European single market, yet abandoned British workers by double crossing them by moving production overseas..... Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . " You're right (blimey, we agree about something!) but where are the jobs they've created? Yes, Dyson has the design bureau here, JCB may do the same, but where are the bulk of these jobs? I thought they were overseas somewhere, which does sort of go against you argument. | |||
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" Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . " I think that these two companies offer a good case study to look at it more detail and show what happens in a globally interconnected world. JCB and Dyson both create great products and are very successful. Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. They dont need degrees or high levels of education, just show them how to do it, and they will continue to do it like that digger after digger, vacuum after vacuum. The more free trade we have with economies that are vastly different from our own (India, China, most of the commonwealth etc.) the more we will see the Dyson and JCB model played out. High paid, high skilled graduate jobs in the UK, low paid, low skilled, non-graduate jobs in the poorest part of the world. Now if we think of the UK, although we have a lot of graduates, not everyone is, or could be, or wants to be a graduate. Like any society, we have a mixture of people. The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land. That is going to leave an awful lot of unemployed people in this country, and that's not what I want to see. I want them to have jobs, to feel needed, to be contributing, to be happy and healthy and proud and supporting their families. I am no fan of Trump, but I know there are many on here who are. The US has had free trade with China. What I have described above is exactly what happened in America, that is why Trump has said he will pull out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, and abandon free trade with China. Do you want the UK to make that same mistake? | |||
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"I vote Matt for President
Sod that... I prefer to spend my time shagging rather than negotiating with foreign super powers.
-Matt"Just like Kennedy and Clinton then? | |||
" Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . I think that these two companies offer a good case study to look at it more detail and show what happens in a globally interconnected world. JCB and Dyson both create great products and are very successful. Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. They dont need degrees or high levels of education, just show them how to do it, and they will continue to do it like that digger after digger, vacuum after vacuum. The more free trade we have with economies that are vastly different from our own (India, China, most of the commonwealth etc.) the more we will see the Dyson and JCB model played out. High paid, high skilled graduate jobs in the UK, low paid, low skilled, non-graduate jobs in the poorest part of the world. Now if we think of the UK, although we have a lot of graduates, not everyone is, or could be, or wants to be a graduate. Like any society, we have a mixture of people. The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land. That is going to leave an awful lot of unemployed people in this country, and that's not what I want to see. I want them to have jobs, to feel needed, to be contributing, to be happy and healthy and proud and supporting their families. I am no fan of Trump, but I know there are many on here who are. The US has had free trade with China. What I have described above is exactly what happened in America, that is why Trump has said he will pull out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, and abandon free trade with China. Do you want the UK to make that same mistake? " Maybe you should research JCB a little bit, but fore your education, here goes; Their Group MD of business operations has said... “I don’t think anyone needs to worry about UK manufacturing, as long as we continue to make the right investments." JCB is one of the UK’s biggest private companies. It employs 12,000 people around the world, half of them in Britain. It has 22 factories, 11 in Britain, where it makes nearly everything required for its signature yellow machines, including engines, transmissions and cabs. It exports 75% of its machines to around 140 countries. It consumes 175,000 tonnes of steel and 1,600 tonnes of yellow paint a year to produce its diggers. The family-owned manufacturer has a huge influence on Britain’s economy. Independent analysis by Oxford Economics suggests JCB contributes £1.4bn a year to GDP, £545m to the Treasury’s coffers and supports 24,000 British jobs. It estimates that every full-time JCB job supports another three in the supply chain. JCB has recently been investing £150m to expand its UK manufacturing operations, including a further two factories and a £15m facelift for the production line of its Loadall telescopic handler, a truck with a long-reach loading arm. So, not totally accurate with your factual case study of JCB then.... | |||
" Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . I think that these two companies offer a good case study to look at it more detail and show what happens in a globally interconnected world. JCB and Dyson both create great products and are very successful. Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. They dont need degrees or high levels of education, just show them how to do it, and they will continue to do it like that digger after digger, vacuum after vacuum. The more free trade we have with economies that are vastly different from our own (India, China, most of the commonwealth etc.) the more we will see the Dyson and JCB model played out. High paid, high skilled graduate jobs in the UK, low paid, low skilled, non-graduate jobs in the poorest part of the world. Now if we think of the UK, although we have a lot of graduates, not everyone is, or could be, or wants to be a graduate. Like any society, we have a mixture of people. The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land. That is going to leave an awful lot of unemployed people in this country, and that's not what I want to see. I want them to have jobs, to feel needed, to be contributing, to be happy and healthy and proud and supporting their families. I am no fan of Trump, but I know there are many on here who are. The US has had free trade with China. What I have described above is exactly what happened in America, that is why Trump has said he will pull out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, and abandon free trade with China. Do you want the UK to make that same mistake? Maybe you should research JCB a little bit, but fore your education, here goes; Their Group MD of business operations has said... “I don’t think anyone needs to worry about UK manufacturing, as long as we continue to make the right investments." JCB is one of the UK’s biggest private companies. It employs 12,000 people around the world, half of them in Britain. It has 22 factories, 11 in Britain, where it makes nearly everything required for its signature yellow machines, including engines, transmissions and cabs. It exports 75% of its machines to around 140 countries. It consumes 175,000 tonnes of steel and 1,600 tonnes of yellow paint a year to produce its diggers. The family-owned manufacturer has a huge influence on Britain’s economy. Independent analysis by Oxford Economics suggests JCB contributes £1.4bn a year to GDP, £545m to the Treasury’s coffers and supports 24,000 British jobs. It estimates that every full-time JCB job supports another three in the supply chain. JCB has recently been investing £150m to expand its UK manufacturing operations, including a further two factories and a £15m facelift for the production line of its Loadall telescopic handler, a truck with a long-reach loading arm. So, not totally accurate with your factual case study of JCB then...." Btw, if you'd like to see them 'making nothing' in the UK, you can book a factory tour at their manufacturing and world headquarters in Rocester, in the Midlands. It really is a massive place. You might learn something. | |||
" Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . I think that these two companies offer a good case study to look at it more detail and show what happens in a globally interconnected world. JCB and Dyson both create great products and are very successful. Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. They dont need degrees or high levels of education, just show them how to do it, and they will continue to do it like that digger after digger, vacuum after vacuum. The more free trade we have with economies that are vastly different from our own (India, China, most of the commonwealth etc.) the more we will see the Dyson and JCB model played out. High paid, high skilled graduate jobs in the UK, low paid, low skilled, non-graduate jobs in the poorest part of the world. Now if we think of the UK, although we have a lot of graduates, not everyone is, or could be, or wants to be a graduate. Like any society, we have a mixture of people. The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land. That is going to leave an awful lot of unemployed people in this country, and that's not what I want to see. I want them to have jobs, to feel needed, to be contributing, to be happy and healthy and proud and supporting their families. I am no fan of Trump, but I know there are many on here who are. The US has had free trade with China. What I have described above is exactly what happened in America, that is why Trump has said he will pull out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, and abandon free trade with China. Do you want the UK to make that same mistake? Maybe you should research JCB a little bit, but fore your education, here goes; Their Group MD of business operations has said... “I don’t think anyone needs to worry about UK manufacturing, as long as we continue to make the right investments." JCB is one of the UK’s biggest private companies. It employs 12,000 people around the world, half of them in Britain. It has 22 factories, 11 in Britain, where it makes nearly everything required for its signature yellow machines, including engines, transmissions and cabs. It exports 75% of its machines to around 140 countries. It consumes 175,000 tonnes of steel and 1,600 tonnes of yellow paint a year to produce its diggers. The family-owned manufacturer has a huge influence on Britain’s economy. Independent analysis by Oxford Economics suggests JCB contributes £1.4bn a year to GDP, £545m to the Treasury’s coffers and supports 24,000 British jobs. It estimates that every full-time JCB job supports another three in the supply chain. JCB has recently been investing £150m to expand its UK manufacturing operations, including a further two factories and a £15m facelift for the production line of its Loadall telescopic handler, a truck with a long-reach loading arm. So, not totally accurate with your factual case study of JCB then...." Btw, if you'd like to see them 'making nothing' in the UK, you can always book a factory tour at their manufacturing and world headquarters in Rocester, in the Midlands. It really is a massive place. You might even learn something...... | |||
" Stinking hypocrites Or maybe forward thinking and inventive men who have their hands on the ball and know exactly what they are doing . JCB are engineering excellence and produce a fantastic product. I was about the replace a vacuum cleaner and will be buying a Dyson one to morrow . We should be admiring these men for their achievements and all the jobs that they have created. They represent engineering excellence . I think that these two companies offer a good case study to look at it more detail and show what happens in a globally interconnected world. JCB and Dyson both create great products and are very successful. Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. They dont need degrees or high levels of education, just show them how to do it, and they will continue to do it like that digger after digger, vacuum after vacuum. The more free trade we have with economies that are vastly different from our own (India, China, most of the commonwealth etc.) the more we will see the Dyson and JCB model played out. High paid, high skilled graduate jobs in the UK, low paid, low skilled, non-graduate jobs in the poorest part of the world. Now if we think of the UK, although we have a lot of graduates, not everyone is, or could be, or wants to be a graduate. Like any society, we have a mixture of people. The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land. That is going to leave an awful lot of unemployed people in this country, and that's not what I want to see. I want them to have jobs, to feel needed, to be contributing, to be happy and healthy and proud and supporting their families. I am no fan of Trump, but I know there are many on here who are. The US has had free trade with China. What I have described above is exactly what happened in America, that is why Trump has said he will pull out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, and abandon free trade with China. Do you want the UK to make that same mistake? Maybe you should research JCB a little bit, but fore your education, here goes; Their Group MD of business operations has said... “I don’t think anyone needs to worry about UK manufacturing, as long as we continue to make the right investments." JCB is one of the UK’s biggest private companies. It employs 12,000 people around the world, half of them in Britain. It has 22 factories, 11 in Britain, where it makes nearly everything required for its signature yellow machines, including engines, transmissions and cabs. It exports 75% of its machines to around 140 countries. It consumes 175,000 tonnes of steel and 1,600 tonnes of yellow paint a year to produce its diggers. The family-owned manufacturer has a huge influence on Britain’s economy. Independent analysis by Oxford Economics suggests JCB contributes £1.4bn a year to GDP, £545m to the Treasury’s coffers and supports 24,000 British jobs. It estimates that every full-time JCB job supports another three in the supply chain. JCB has recently been investing £150m to expand its UK manufacturing operations, including a further two factories and a £15m facelift for the production line of its Loadall telescopic handler, a truck with a long-reach loading arm. So, not totally accurate with your factual case study of JCB then.... Btw, if you'd like to see them 'making nothing' in the UK, you can always book a factory tour at their manufacturing and world headquarters in Rocester, in the Midlands. It really is a massive place. You might even learn something......" Your post says that 50% of their employees are abroad. Some of these are in the poorest parts of the world. Where are all the HQ departments that I mentioned, in the UK, so that means that more than 50% of the manufacturing employees are outside of the UK. Nothing you have posted contradicts my post. I never said they made nothing here. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here." You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. " I didn't say ALL of their production facilities. However the other posters figures show that more than 50% of their production employees work outside the UK. Anyway, I was talking about business models. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. I didn't say ALL of their production facilities. However the other posters figures show that more than 50% of their production employees work outside the UK. Anyway, I was talking about business models. " I'm just clarifying for everyone what you said, so they can comment correctly. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. I didn't say ALL of their production facilities. However the other posters figures show that more than 50% of their production employees work outside the UK. Anyway, I was talking about business models. " In terms of your general point. The staff at JCB manufacturing are well paid and very highly skilled. The perception of engineering and manufacturing is the subject for another thread. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. " You also said "The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land." So where, in any of your post do you say that JCB manufactures in the U.K., or that they have more factories in the U.K. than they do the rest of the world? Instead, you write a post purposely to try and deceive other forumites here (remainers, try to deceive anyone?!!!), in order to satisfy your anti-Brexit, anti-UK narrative.... Anyone for post-truth?! Many on here would say it's rather cheap and pathetic..... not that we would, as we've grown used to it, in fact it's becoming quite tiresome. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. You also said "The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land." So where, in any of your post do you say that JCB manufactures in the U.K., or that they have more factories in the U.K. than they do the rest of the world? Instead, you write a post purposely to try and deceive other forumites here (remainers, try to deceive anyone?!!!), in order to satisfy your anti-Brexit, anti-UK narrative.... Anyone for post-truth?! Many on here would say it's rather cheap and pathetic..... not that we would, as we've grown used to it, in fact it's becoming quite tiresome." Fine, you're right, I'm wrong. We won't lose any jobs to China or India, everything will be made here, we will be a land of milk and honey. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. You also said "The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land." So where, in any of your post do you say that JCB manufactures in the U.K., or that they have more factories in the U.K. than they do the rest of the world? Instead, you write a post purposely to try and deceive other forumites here (remainers, try to deceive anyone?!!!), in order to satisfy your anti-Brexit, anti-UK narrative.... Anyone for post-truth?! Many on here would say it's rather cheap and pathetic..... not that we would, as we've grown used to it, in fact it's becoming quite tiresome. Fine, you're right, I'm wrong. We won't lose any jobs to China or India, everything will be made here, we will be a land of milk and honey. " Actually, I think you'll find that you were, at best, being economical with the truth about JCB's manufacturing... trying to lead people to believe that JCB's manufacturing plants are all abroad and not in the UK... when in fact, JCB have 13 factories in the UK and 11 abroad. As well as India and China, they also have factories in USA, Germany, Brazil and Australia. But, you have been found out being economical with the truth to suit your own twisted and petty anti-Brexit, Anti-UK narrative, instead of telling the whole story about JCB. We haven't lost any jobs to China or India - the plant sold in the UK is made in the UK - the jobs in India and China are for plant sales in those regions. As was pointed out on another thread, you come across as wanting the UK to suffer a recession, and for millions of people to lose their livelihoods, just so that you can say "told you so".... you say you love your country, but you really don't show it. | |||
" I never said they made nothing here. You said: Their HQs, their engineers, their research and development, their HR, their marketing, their legal dept, their fiance dept etc. are all based in the UK. These are high skilled, degree and post graduate level positions. Their production facilities are in the poorest parts of the world. This is because the labour there is cheap. You also said "The ones who are missing out, who are feeling left behind in this global economy, are the ones who previously would have done the factory work, or the textiles work, or the mining, etc. and then all of the supporting industries that grew around those core industries, be that driving or being a sub contractor or supplier to those big industries. If you can get a job in the HQ, in one of those graduate or post graduate level positions, you'll be fine, but if not, your job will have moved to a foreign land." So where, in any of your post do you say that JCB manufactures in the U.K., or that they have more factories in the U.K. than they do the rest of the world? Instead, you write a post purposely to try and deceive other forumites here (remainers, try to deceive anyone?!!!), in order to satisfy your anti-Brexit, anti-UK narrative.... Anyone for post-truth?! Many on here would say it's rather cheap and pathetic..... not that we would, as we've grown used to it, in fact it's becoming quite tiresome. Fine, you're right, I'm wrong. We won't lose any jobs to China or India, everything will be made here, we will be a land of milk and honey. Actually, I think you'll find that you were, at best, being economical with the truth about JCB's manufacturing... trying to lead people to believe that JCB's manufacturing plants are all abroad and not in the UK... when in fact, JCB have 13 factories in the UK and 11 abroad. As well as India and China, they also have factories in USA, Germany, Brazil and Australia. But, you have been found out being economical with the truth to suit your own twisted and petty anti-Brexit, Anti-UK narrative, instead of telling the whole story about JCB. We haven't lost any jobs to China or India - the plant sold in the UK is made in the UK - the jobs in India and China are for plant sales in those regions. As was pointed out on another thread, you come across as wanting the UK to suffer a recession, and for millions of people to lose their livelihoods, just so that you can say "told you so".... you say you love your country, but you really don't show it." ... Can you please stop telling the truth. | |||
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"While re-balancing the economy would be a possible welcome side effect of brexit, I find it bizarre you are holding JCB up as some sort of indicator how brexit is good for businesses. JCB manufacture goods. They have good UK sales and good exports, though obviously they have half their production overseas so are bound to be less affected than many. However we are about 80% service based economy and in terms of goods, we import more than we export. So to trumpet JCB is more reality doging. How is Brexit going to impact our service industries, particularly the financial sector and how is it going to affect the imported goods and the prices our consumers are going to have to pay? It's a bit like the brexiters kept banging on about how we will get a good deal from EUrope because the German Car Industry exports so much to us, as if that trumps every other industry and every other nation." Well Germany is the most powerful nation in the EU, (holds the most sway) and the German car industry is the most powerful lobby group in the EU. | |||
