FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Was this enough to tip it for Trump (and Brexit)?
Was this enough to tip it for Trump (and Brexit)?
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"It comes down to winning by dishonesty, by being the best liar, rather than trying to win on merit or things you really believe in. This sort of thing will not fly for much longer. Trump himself was a backlash of sorts, as was Brexit. " In the constituency where I live Cannock Chase 68% voted Leave and 32% remain. Vote Leave posters in house windows and banners at the side of the road outnumbered Remain ones by an average of 10 to 1 I'd say. I work all around the west midlands area and same can be said for much of the west midlands who voted leave in high numbers. Did vote Leave send out automated robots to put all those posters and banners up? 
Or were they there through sheer hard work from people doing something they believed in. | |||
"It comes down to winning by dishonesty, by being the best liar, rather than trying to win on merit or things you really believe in. This sort of thing will not fly for much longer. Trump himself was a backlash of sorts, as was Brexit. " Do politicians do much else than tell porkies ? That is the reason why brexit and trump won many people are fed up of the lies they have been told for years and years, this feeling wont end it is growing, the genie is out of the bottle the danger is that the very small minority of racial supremacists will get out of hand, as long as the powers that be accept they have left many ordinary people behind and genuinely want to right that then we could be on the way to a fairer world,the trouble is turkeys dont vote for xmas | |||
"It comes down to winning by dishonesty, by being the best liar, rather than trying to win on merit or things you really believe in. This sort of thing will not fly for much longer. Trump himself was a backlash of sorts, as was Brexit. Do politicians do much else than tell porkies ? That is the reason why brexit and trump won many people are fed up of the lies they have been told for years and years, this feeling wont end it is growing, the genie is out of the bottle the danger is that the very small minority of racial supremacists will get out of hand, as long as the powers that be accept they have left many ordinary people behind and genuinely want to right that then we could be on the way to a fairer world,the trouble is turkeys dont vote for xmas " Corbyn, Trump and Brexit are all examples of turkeys voting for Christmas. | |||
"'An automated army of pro-Donald J. Trump chatbots overwhelmed similar programs supporting Hillary Clinton five to one in the days leading up to the presidential election, according to a report published Thursday by researchers at Oxford University. The chatbots — basic software programs with a bit of artificial intelligence and rudimentary communication skills — would send messages on Twitter based on a topic, usually defined on the social network by a word preceded by a hashtag symbol, like #Clinton. Their purpose: to rant, confuse people on facts, or simply muddy discussions, said Philip N. Howard, a sociologist at the Oxford Internet Institute and one of the authors of the report. If you were looking for a real debate of the issues, you weren’t going to find it with a chatbot. “They’re yelling fools,” Dr. Howard said. “And a lot of what they pass around is false news.” The role fake news played in the presidential election has become a sore point for the technology industry, particularly Google, Twitter and Facebook. On Monday, Google said it would ban websites that peddle fake news from using its online advertising service. Facebook also updated the language in its Facebook Audience Network policy, which already says it will not display ads in sites that show misleading or illegal content, to include fake news sites. In some cases, the bots would post embarrassing photos, make references to the Federal Bureau of Investigation inquiry into Mrs. Clinton’s private email server, or produce false statements, for instance, that Mrs. Clinton was about to go to jail or was already in jail. “The use of automated accounts was deliberate and strategic throughout the election,” the researchers wrote in the report, published by the Project on Algorithms, Computational Propaganda and Digital Politics at Oxford. Because the chatbots were almost entirely anonymous and were frequently bought in secret from companies or individual programmers, it was not possible to directly link the activity to either campaign, except for a handful of “joke” bots created by Mrs. Clinton’s campaign, they noted. However, there was evidence that the mystery chatbots were part of an organized effort. “There does seem to be strategy behind the bots,” Dr. Howard said. “By the third debate, Trump bots were launching into their activity early and we noticed that automated accounts were actually colonizing Clinton hashtags.” A hashtag is used to indicate a Twitter post’s topic. By adopting hashtags relating to Mrs. Clinton, the opposition bots were most likely able to wiggle their way into an online conversation among Clinton supporters. After the election, the bot traffic declined rapidly, with the exception of some pro-Trump programs that gloated, “We won and you lost,” Dr. Howard said. Trump campaign officials did not respond to requests for comment. Twitter executives argued that more people would not follow the programs and so they would be picked up only by those who looked for particular hashtags. “Anyone who claims that automated spam accounts that tweeted about the U.S. election had an effect on voters’ opinions or influenced the national Twitter conversation clearly underestimates voters and fails to understand how Twitter works,” said Nick Pacilio, a Twitter spokesman. The researchers based their study on a collection of about 19.4 million Twitter posts gathered in the first nine days of November. They selected tweets based on hashtags identifying certain subjects and identified automated posting by finding accounts that post at least 50 times a day. “For example, the top 20 accounts, which were mostly bots and highly automated accounts, averaged over 1,300 tweets a day and they generated more than 234,000 tweets,” the researchers noted. “The top 100 accounts, which still used high levels of automation, generated around 450,000 tweets at an average rate of 500 tweets per day.” The Oxford researchers had previously reported that political chatbots had played a role in shaping the political landscape that led to Britain’s “Brexit” vote. The researchers have coined the term “computational propaganda” to describe the explosion of deceptive social media campaigns on services like Facebook and Twitter. In a previous research paper, Dr. Howard and Bence Kollanyi, a researcher at Corvinus University of Budapest, described how political chatbots had a “small but strategic role” in shaping the online conversation during the run-up to the Brexit referendum. The bot managers seem to repurpose the programs as well. During the British campaign, they discovered that a family of bots that had been tweeting around Israeli-Palestinian issues for three or four years had suddenly become pro-Brexit. After the vote, the bots returned to their original issue. In the case of the American election, the researchers noted that “highly automated accounts — the accounts that tweeted 450 or more times with a related hashtag and user mention during the data collection period — generated close to 18 percent of all Twitter traffic about the presidential election.” They also noted that bots tend to circulate negative news much more effectively than positive reports. One of the consequences of the intense social media campaigns will be a rise in what social scientists call “selective affinity.” “Clinton supporters will cut the Trump supporters out of their network, and Trump supporters will do the same,” Dr. Howard said. “The polarization of the election is going to make this stuff worse as we self-groom our news networks.”" I thought that Clinton claimed to have the upper hand during the campaign and as such Trump was at a disadvantage from the start. Surely no one is going to vote based on a Twitter Feed. You would generally base your vote on the election literature and what you hear on the news. | |||
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"It comes down to winning by dishonesty, by being the best liar, rather than trying to win on merit or things you really believe in. This sort of thing will not fly for much longer. Trump himself was a backlash of sorts, as was Brexit. Do politicians do much else than tell porkies ? That is the reason why brexit and trump won many people are fed up of the lies they have been told for years and years, this feeling wont end it is growing, the genie is out of the bottle the danger is that the very small minority of racial supremacists will get out of hand, as long as the powers that be accept they have left many ordinary people behind and genuinely want to right that then we could be on the way to a fairer world,the trouble is turkeys dont vote for xmas Corbyn, Trump and Brexit are all examples of turkeys voting for Christmas." People of Sunderland come high up that list too! | |||
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"Seems turkeys are taking over the world. "And Christmas is only 6 weeks away! | |||
"I sometimes think the trump/brexit bots are on here. They just about pass the Turing test mind you. " Hundreds of thousands of volunteers joined vote Leave (I was one of them). A lot of people put in a lot of hard work to achieve the Brexit victory, doing something they believe in, walking the streets, knocking on doors, delivering leaflets, making phone calls and putting posters and banners up. You seem to constantly imply leave only won because they either lied or cheated and it's offensive to the hundreds of thousands of volunteers who put in untold amount of hours and a lot of hard work on the ground. | |||
"I sometimes think the trump/brexit bots are on here. They just about pass the Turing test mind you. " I'm not so sure they all do actually.  | |||
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"The irony of people using a word they don't understand." Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists " if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. | |||
"It comes down to winning by dishonesty, by being the best liar, rather than trying to win on merit or things you really believe in. This sort of thing will not fly for much longer. Trump himself was a backlash of sorts, as was Brexit. Do politicians do much else than tell porkies ? That is the reason why brexit and trump won many people are fed up of the lies they have been told for years and years, this feeling wont end it is growing, the genie is out of the bottle the danger is that the very small minority of racial supremacists will get out of hand, as long as the powers that be accept they have left many ordinary people behind and genuinely want to right that then we could be on the way to a fairer world,the trouble is turkeys dont vote for xmas Corbyn, Trump and Brexit are all examples of turkeys voting for Christmas." ..........So enlighten us oh wise one.....what is the name of this fantastic political party you alway's vote for. | |||
"It comes down to winning by dishonesty, by being the best liar, rather than trying to win on merit or things you really believe in. This sort of thing will not fly for much longer. Trump himself was a backlash of sorts, as was Brexit. Do politicians do much else than tell porkies ? That is the reason why brexit and trump won many people are fed up of the lies they have been told for years and years, this feeling wont end it is growing, the genie is out of the bottle the danger is that the very small minority of racial supremacists will get out of hand, as long as the powers that be accept they have left many ordinary people behind and genuinely want to right that then we could be on the way to a fairer world,the trouble is turkeys dont vote for xmas Corbyn, Trump and Brexit are all examples of turkeys voting for Christmas...........So enlighten us oh wise one.....what is the name of this fantastic political party you alway's vote for." Corumpit | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. " I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it | |||
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"Wasn't the official Brexit T-shirt "I'm with stupid"? "Thought that was what all the "experts wore"  | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it " I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. | |||
" I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. " They will be quite happy as long as we can control the numbers, some wont be so happy if they have to do the jobs that the immigrants will do though | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. " We've been having them for decades and many from all other countries in the world. As long as the numbers are controlled why would people have a problem? It's the uncontrolled element from the EU people have a problem with. We must be able to control the numbers from the EU (same as the rest of the world). Why should the EU get an unfair advantage and preferential treatment? | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it " the control of immigration has always been something that I'm in favour of, and I would reckon most regardless of whether they voted leave, remain or even didn't vote will have a view that there should be some form of system that works.. | |||
" the control of immigration has always been something that I'm in favour of, and I would reckon most regardless of whether they voted leave, remain or even didn't vote will have a view that there should be some form of system that works.. "  | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. We've been having them for decades and many from all other countries in the world. As long as the numbers are controlled why would people have a problem? It's the uncontrolled element from the EU people have a problem with. We must be able to control the numbers from the EU (same as the rest of the world). Why should the EU get an unfair advantage and preferential treatment? " Because it will be "controlled" but the total number will go UP! NOT down. We had "control" over immigration from the accession countries, between 2004 and 2014, and you weren't happy then, so I highly doubt you will be happy with "controlled" immigration that goes up. | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. We've been having them for decades and many from all other countries in the world. As long as the numbers are controlled why would people have a problem? It's the uncontrolled element from the EU people have a problem with. We must be able to control the numbers from the EU (same as the rest of the world). Why should the EU get an unfair advantage and preferential treatment? Because it will be "controlled" but the total number will go UP! NOT down. We had "control" over immigration from the accession countries, between 2004 and 2014, and you weren't happy then, so I highly doubt you will be happy with "controlled" immigration that goes up. " We've never had control of immigration from the EU, that is what the EU's precious free movement of people principle is all about and that is what people object to. | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. We've been having them for decades and many from all other countries in the world. As long as the numbers are controlled why would people have a problem? It's the uncontrolled element from the EU people have a problem with. We must be able to control the numbers from the EU (same as the rest of the world). Why should the EU get an unfair advantage and preferential treatment? Because it will be "controlled" but the total number will go UP! NOT down. We had "control" over immigration from the accession countries, between 2004 and 2014, and you weren't happy then, so I highly doubt you will be happy with "controlled" immigration that goes up. We've never had control of immigration from the EU, that is what the EU's precious free movement of people principle is all about and that is what people object to. " I would have thought you were better informed on the subject. | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists if I am a 'bigot' for being intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism etc which some on here are happy to chuck out daily then I can live with that.. there are too many on both sides of this debate using such terms about those with opposing views.. most of the time it contributes nothing and dilutes the points being made.. I know lots of people that voted leave and very few did so because of race, and even those that did it wasnt because they hate them but just want to control numbers, calling it racism is just an easy way to insult leavers in the hope that they may feel awkward and change sides. I agree that insults dont bring anything to the debate but we all know which side does the vast majority of it I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. We've been having them for decades and many from all other countries in the world. As long as the numbers are controlled why would people have a problem? It's the uncontrolled element from the EU people have a problem with. We must be able to control the numbers from the EU (same as the rest of the world). Why should the EU get an unfair advantage and preferential treatment? Because it will be "controlled" but the total number will go UP! NOT down. We had "control" over immigration from the accession countries, between 2004 and 2014, and you weren't happy then, so I highly doubt you will be happy with "controlled" immigration that goes up. We've never had control of immigration from the EU, that is what the EU's precious free movement of people principle is all about and that is what people object to. " What about non EU immigration? Do we have control of it? | |||
" I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. They will be quite happy as long as we can control the numbers, some wont be so happy if they have to do the jobs that the immigrants will do though " As people from those non-EU countries make up over half the numbers coming here already I don't really see how you can truthfully and genuinely believe we'll control their numbers any better once we've left the EU. | |||
" I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. They will be quite happy as long as we can control the numbers, some wont be so happy if they have to do the jobs that the immigrants will do though As people from those non-EU countries make up over half the numbers coming here already I don't really see how you can truthfully and genuinely believe we'll control their numbers any better once we've left the EU." Of course we can control numbers IF we want to and perhaps the powers that be now think thats what the voters want . How many people do YOU think should be able to live in this country, its not about racism but about houses schools,nhs, road congestion etc etc | |||
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" I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. They will be quite happy as long as we can control the numbers, some wont be so happy if they have to do the jobs that the immigrants will do though As people from those non-EU countries make up over half the numbers coming here already I don't really see how you can truthfully and genuinely believe we'll control their numbers any better once we've left the EU." Exactly my point. Although I am not sure if it's uncontrollable or whether it is controlled and the government supports it. People forget politicians avoid the truth. | |||
" I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. They will be quite happy as long as we can control the numbers, some wont be so happy if they have to do the jobs that the immigrants will do though As people from those non-EU countries make up over half the numbers coming here already I don't really see how you can truthfully and genuinely believe we'll control their numbers any better once we've left the EU. Of course we can control numbers IF we want to and perhaps the powers that be now think thats what the voters want . How many people do YOU think should be able to live in this country, its not about racism but about houses schools,nhs, road congestion etc etc" Fair enough. That is a good question. How many can we support? But with the current infrastructure or with investments into our infrastructure. Even if there is no migration, population has been growing. We should have a sustainable system. | |||
" I wonder how your friends are going to feel when we start getting immigrants from Bangladesh instead of Brussels, India instead of Ireland and the Caribbean instead of Corfu. They will be quite happy as long as we can control the numbers, some wont be so happy if they have to do the jobs that the immigrants will do though As people from those non-EU countries make up over half the numbers coming here already I don't really see how you can truthfully and genuinely believe we'll control their numbers any better once we've left the EU. Exactly my point. Although I am not sure if it's uncontrollable or whether it is controlled and the government supports it. People forget politicians avoid the truth." Even vote leave figures say immigration won't decline. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659802/Tory-Brexiteer-Dan-Hannan-insists-quitting-EU-does-NOT-mean-dramatic-cuts-number-immigrants-coming-Britain.html | |||
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"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done....." Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs?" Ask our PM. | |||
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"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs?" We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades" There are many factors too. Skills, the distribution of people to jobs, willingness to work in any job. Plus in the quote, unable to work. | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades There are many factors too. Skills, the distribution of people to jobs, willingness to work in any job. Plus in the quote, unable to work." Distribution I mean the proportion of people to jobs know your area. Maybe you need to migrate where there are more jobs. | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades" Very few are incapable of doing some work, but you are avoiding the question why do we need migrants when there are people looking for work especially in the north ? | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades Very few are incapable of doing some work, but you are avoiding the question why do we need migrants when there are people looking for work especially in the north ?" Because in many cases the migrants are doing the jobs that many Brits simply refuse to do.....if you are in any doubt take a drive up to East Anglia and speak to farmers who have to rely on migrant farm workers because they have no choice. I was visiting Norfolk last weekend and saw it for myself, and heard it first hand. | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades Very few are incapable of doing some work, but you are avoiding the question why do we need migrants when there are people looking for work especially in the north ?" When I looked at moving back to the UK. Jobs are pretty low in the north. It's a two way issue. The employee has to have an opportunity they want, the employer wants an employee that fits their requirements. People are not handed jobs. Not all people will accept any job. | |||
"Of course the government supports it, and they have been since the late 1950's, like most Westernised nations we have jobs that we rely on migrants to get them done..... Why when we have 1.6million unemployed do we need to rely on migrants to do these jobs? We don't have 1.6 million unemployed though, those figures are artificial and include those who are physically and mentally unable to work. We will ALWAYS rely on migrants to fill certain positions, like we did in the late 50's and 60's to fill jobs in Northern factories and London transport. We only pretend that its anything new.....the reality being that it's been going on for decades Very few are incapable of doing some work, but you are avoiding the question why do we need migrants when there are people looking for work especially in the north ?" Probably because they don't have the right skills, experience, qualifications, aptitude or ability. Surely a British person has a natural advantage over a foreigner, English as a first language, knowledge of the local area, may have friends at the company, qualifications that are understood by the employer etc. so with all those advantages, you've got to be doing something wrong if a foreigner gets the job over you. | |||
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"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole " So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole " So which issue to solve? Saving tax payer money or unemployment? Or both | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. " never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So which issue to solve? Saving tax payer money or unemployment? Or both " Both and an end to the "I am above this menial job" mentallity | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my " Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So which issue to solve? Saving tax payer money or unemployment? Or both Both and an end to the "I am above this menial job" mentallity" this.. the issues why some see it as a way of life are complex and too many Governments have failed to address the reasons why.. work ethic, personal pride, a sense of contributing and not taking something for doing nothing are maybe some of the basics not being passed on by some.. | |||
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"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? " Border control and not being compelled to admit those who are not working . We will also be an architect of our own destiny and not accountable to Brussels . We will save an enormous amount on our EU contribution Some people in the UK and deprived of the right to earn because of EU legislation . | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? Border control and not being compelled to admit those who are not working . We will also be an architect of our own destiny and not accountable to Brussels . We will save an enormous amount on our EU contribution Some people in the UK and deprived of the right to earn because of EU legislation . " Good luck with it. | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? " This thread wasnt about immigration and as always when you are asked a direct question that you cant answer you change the subject, again for you I have never said wedont need SOME immigration we need control and we must make those brits that wont work do so or lose their benefits, so how do we make those work or are you happy for hundreds of thousands sponge of those who do work many on low wages | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? This thread wasnt about immigration and as always when you are asked a direct question that you cant answer you change the subject, again for you I have never said wedont need SOME immigration we need control and we must make those brits that wont work do so or lose their benefits, so how do we make those work or are you happy for hundreds of thousands sponge of those who do work many on low wages" You describe the situation that we already have. Do you know anyone, or work with anyone claiming JSA? Are you aware of the harsh sanctions that are in place for those deemed to be not actively seeking work? The vote leave campaign told you that immigration won't fall (only after the votes had been cast and counted) after we leave, so what's the point of control if immigration is controlled upwards? | |||
" Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? Border control and not being compelled to admit those who are not working . We will also be an architect of our own destiny and not accountable to Brussels . We will save an enormous amount on our EU contribution Some people in the UK and deprived of the right to earn because of EU legislation . " What is your issue with admitting those who aren't working? They can't claim any benefits because they don't pass our habitual residence test, and they are only allowed here for 6 months, after that, if they haven't found a job, they can be deported as they are not exercising a treaty right. Please can you tell me which piece of EU legislation deprives people of work. | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? This thread wasnt about immigration and as always when you are asked a direct question that you cant answer you change the subject, again for you I have never said wedont need SOME immigration we need control and we must make those brits that wont work do so or lose their benefits, so how do we make those work or are you happy for hundreds of thousands sponge of those who do work many on low wages You describe the situation that we already have. Do you know anyone, or work with anyone claiming JSA? Are you aware of the harsh sanctions that are in place for those deemed to be not actively seeking work? The vote leave campaign told you that immigration won't fall (only after the votes had been cast and counted) after we leave, so what's the point of control if immigration is controlled upwards? " You know as well as I do its easy to show you are "looking" for work | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists " The key thing about bigotry is a bigot holds views that are UNREASONABLE. That is a key underpinning. It is not bigotry to have no time for unreasonable views. By general consent racist views are unreasonable, so being intolerant of those views is not bigotry because that is a reasonable position. Calling someone a bigot for that is illogical. To be clear I am not suggesting most people who voted Brexit are racist, I'm not even suggesting most people who voted Brexit primarily for immigration control reasons are racist. It is also not bigotry to passionately disagree with someone as long as it is on reasonable grounds. It might be intolerant, but it isn't bigotry. | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? Border control and not being compelled to admit those who are not working . We will also be an architect of our own destiny and not accountable to Brussels . We will save an enormous amount on our EU contribution " We already have that control. No one is aloud to come and stay here indefinitely if they can not show they have the means to support themselves. This applies to both EU and non EU nationals now (with the exception of British and Irish citizens). So what are you proposing that would be any different? " Some people in the UK and deprived of the right to earn because of EU legislation . " | |||
"The irony of people using a word they don't understand. Bigot A person who is intolerant of those holding different opinions . Sums up many of the remainers on this site quite well when they decribe leavers as thick,uneducated racists The key thing about bigotry is a bigot holds views that are UNREASONABLE. That is a key underpinning. It is not bigotry to have no time for unreasonable views. By general consent racist views are unreasonable, so being intolerant of those views is not bigotry because that is a reasonable position. Calling someone a bigot for that is illogical. To be clear I am not suggesting most people who voted Brexit are racist, I'm not even suggesting most people who voted Brexit primarily for immigration control reasons are racist. It is also not bigotry to passionately disagree with someone as long as it is on reasonable grounds. It might be intolerant, but it isn't bigotry. " So you accept that most people who voted leave arent racist but you still accused them of being bigots. I am quite happy for people to have different views on brexit or any other matter but I dont call them thick or stupid or racist as you have done in the past,in doing so you are intolerant of others perfectly reasonable opinions therfore by definition your are a bigot,you may define a bigot in different terms to the oxford dictionary I am using their version | |||
"So we at last agree on something, there are a lot of people in this country that wont take on certain jobs. The big questions are why has this arisen and how do we change this attitude, I for one dont thinks its acceptable for people to say I dont want to do"that" job AND expect the tax paying worker to support the work shy,if you dont want to do a job thats fine just dont expect the dole So you admit then we are going to need just as many immigrants as before. never said we dont need some migrants,what I have said is that we need to make the work shy work,now how about you suggesting an answer to my Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? This thread wasnt about immigration and as always when you are asked a direct question that you cant answer you change the subject, again for you I have never said wedont need SOME immigration we need control and we must make those brits that wont work do so or lose their benefits, so how do we make those work or are you happy for hundreds of thousands sponge of those who do work many on low wages You describe the situation that we already have. Do you know anyone, or work with anyone claiming JSA? Are you aware of the harsh sanctions that are in place for those deemed to be not actively seeking work? The vote leave campaign told you that immigration won't fall (only after the votes had been cast and counted) after we leave, so what's the point of control if immigration is controlled upwards? You know as well as I do its easy to show you are "looking" for work" And they have job coaches that they meet with on a regular basis, sometimes even a daily basis, and if those coaches (DWP staff) don't think they are truely trying, they will and do sanction them. So you always like to accuse me of not answering questions, but you didn't answer mine, what's the point of controlling immigration if it only going to controlled upwards? Especially if this new found "control" is going to cost us hundreds of billions of pounds? | |||
" Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? Border control and not being compelled to admit those who are not working . We will also be an architect of our own destiny and not accountable to Brussels . We will save an enormous amount on our EU contribution Some people in the UK and deprived of the right to earn because of EU legislation . What is your issue with admitting those who aren't working? They can't claim any benefits because they don't pass our habitual residence test, and they are only allowed here for 6 months, after that, if they haven't found a job, they can be deported as they are not exercising a treaty right. Please can you tell me which piece of EU legislation deprives people of work." The requirement to have a drivers qualification card deprives some people to drive either lorries or buses commercially . Whist I do not drive for a living , I hold licences to drive both lorries and buses . Without a driver qualification card I am prohibited from driving commercially unless I have the card which requires initial testing or completion of a thirty five hour course and a further seven hours of training per annum . As a result of this EU legislation some drivers are no longer allowed to drive commercially as they do not have he relevant card . This is a completely pointless piece of legislation . You could attend the same course five times and be awarded your card . Luckily I have a professional qualification, work full time and in addition run a small business , so the driver qualification card is probably irrelevant to me . However , I currently still hold one and when it expires next year , I will no longer be able to drive such vehicles as I have not completed any so called training since first obtaining my card . The scenario might be very different if someone was looking for work and could not afford the cost of training in order to obtain a card . As such they would be unemployed because of the EU | |||
" Well as we are talking about immigration, lets stick to that topic. So if you know we need just as many immigrants as before, what's the point of voting for Brexit on that basis? Border control and not being compelled to admit those who are not working . We will also be an architect of our own destiny and not accountable to Brussels . We will save an enormous amount on our EU contribution Some people in the UK and deprived of the right to earn because of EU legislation . What is your issue with admitting those who aren't working? They can't claim any benefits because they don't pass our habitual residence test, and they are only allowed here for 6 months, after that, if they haven't found a job, they can be deported as they are not exercising a treaty right. Please can you tell me which piece of EU legislation deprives people of work. The requirement to have a drivers qualification card deprives some people to drive either lorries or buses commercially . Whist I do not drive for a living , I hold licences to drive both lorries and buses . Without a driver qualification card I am prohibited from driving commercially unless I have the card which requires initial testing or completion of a thirty five hour course and a further seven hours of training per annum . As a result of this EU legislation some drivers are no longer allowed to drive commercially as they do not have he relevant card . This is a completely pointless piece of legislation . You could attend the same course five times and be awarded your card . Luckily I have a professional qualification, work full time and in addition run a small business , so the driver qualification card is probably irrelevant to me . However , I currently still hold one and when it expires next year , I will no longer be able to drive such vehicles as I have not completed any so called training since first obtaining my card . The scenario might be very different if someone was looking for work and could not afford the cost of training in order to obtain a card . As such they would be unemployed because of the EU " In the same way that the general medical council deprives me of a livelihood because they won't let me be a doctor just because I'm not qualified? Or the same way the civil aviation authority deprives me of a livelihood as a pilot, just because I'm not qualified? Yeah, those bastards. | |||
" And they have job coaches that they meet with on a regular basis, sometimes even a daily basis, and if those coaches (DWP staff) don't think they are truely trying, they will and do sanction them. So you always like to accuse me of not answering questions, but you didn't answer mine, what's the point of controlling immigration if it only going to controlled upwards? Especially if this new found "control" is going to cost us hundreds of billions of pounds? " I know two people that havent worked for years,one has no intention of doing so just thieves for a living,minor stuff like poaching etc so no I dont think its that hard to avoid work. As for immigration if we need workers we need workers but control allows us to decide who and who doesnt come and when there will be times when we need particular skills and may need to import those skills but we must get the work shy to learn that work is not voluntary | |||
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" And they have job coaches that they meet with on a regular basis, sometimes even a daily basis, and if those coaches (DWP staff) don't think they are truely trying, they will and do sanction them. So you always like to accuse me of not answering questions, but you didn't answer mine, what's the point of controlling immigration if it only going to controlled upwards? Especially if this new found "control" is going to cost us hundreds of billions of pounds? I know two people that havent worked for years,one has no intention of doing so just thieves for a living,minor stuff like poaching etc so no I dont think its that hard to avoid work. As for immigration if we need workers we need workers but control allows us to decide who and who doesnt come and when there will be times when we need particular skills and may need to import those skills but we must get the work shy to learn that work is not voluntary " And if you were a business would you want to hire these long term unemployed criminals? | |||
" And they have job coaches that they meet with on a regular basis, sometimes even a daily basis, and if those coaches (DWP staff) don't think they are truely trying, they will and do sanction them. So you always like to accuse me of not answering questions, but you didn't answer mine, what's the point of controlling immigration if it only going to controlled upwards? Especially if this new found "control" is going to cost us hundreds of billions of pounds? I know two people that havent worked for years,one has no intention of doing so just thieves for a living,minor stuff like poaching etc so no I dont think its that hard to avoid work. As for immigration if we need workers we need workers but control allows us to decide who and who doesnt come and when there will be times when we need particular skills and may need to import those skills but we must get the work shy to learn that work is not voluntary And if you were a business would you want to hire these long term unemployed criminals? " So are you saying ALL long term unemployed are criminals ? No as a business I dont want useless employees and that is part of the problem,we have produced a generation some of which dont want hard work or do jobs that they deem beneath them, they dont want night or weekend work which is fine when you have the skills/attitude and experience but too many these days want to go straight to the top, manual work seems to be regarded as demeaning these days . I wonder if there are any figures to show who is doing these jobs, I would from my knowledge that it is the immigrants that fill these jobs and is one reason that the attitude of the british workshy must change | |||
" And they have job coaches that they meet with on a regular basis, sometimes even a daily basis, and if those coaches (DWP staff) don't think they are truely trying, they will and do sanction them. So you always like to accuse me of not answering questions, but you didn't answer mine, what's the point of controlling immigration if it only going to controlled upwards? Especially if this new found "control" is going to cost us hundreds of billions of pounds? I know two people that havent worked for years,one has no intention of doing so just thieves for a living,minor stuff like poaching etc so no I dont think its that hard to avoid work. As for immigration if we need workers we need workers but control allows us to decide who and who doesnt come and when there will be times when we need particular skills and may need to import those skills but we must get the work shy to learn that work is not voluntary And if you were a business would you want to hire these long term unemployed criminals? So are you saying ALL long term unemployed are criminals ? No as a business I dont want useless employees and that is part of the problem,we have produced a generation some of which dont want hard work or do jobs that they deem beneath them, they dont want night or weekend work which is fine when you have the skills/attitude and experience but too many these days want to go straight to the top, manual work seems to be regarded as demeaning these days . I wonder if there are any figures to show who is doing these jobs, I would from my knowledge that it is the immigrants that fill these jobs and is one reason that the attitude of the british workshy must change " Of course I'm not saying that all unemployed people are criminals, I was referring to the ones that you mentioned, where you said at least one of them was a poacher and a thief. So if you wouldn't hire them, you shouldn't expect other businesses to hire them either. Businesses want the best employees they can get, not scraping the bottom of the barrel to give someone a job who doesn't even want it. When they can get excellent candidates from the EU, why should you force them to harm their own business by hiring local, but useless thieves? | |||
" And they have job coaches that they meet with on a regular basis, sometimes even a daily basis, and if those coaches (DWP staff) don't think they are truely trying, they will and do sanction them. So you always like to accuse me of not answering questions, but you didn't answer mine, what's the point of controlling immigration if it only going to controlled upwards? Especially if this new found "control" is going to cost us hundreds of billions of pounds? I know two people that havent worked for years,one has no intention of doing so just thieves for a living,minor stuff like poaching etc so no I dont think its that hard to avoid work. As for immigration if we need workers we need workers but control allows us to decide who and who doesnt come and when there will be times when we need particular skills and may need to import those skills but we must get the work shy to learn that work is not voluntary And if you were a business would you want to hire these long term unemployed criminals? So are you saying ALL long term unemployed are criminals ? No as a business I dont want useless employees and that is part of the problem,we have produced a generation some of which dont want hard work or do jobs that they deem beneath them, they dont want night or weekend work which is fine when you have the skills/attitude and experience but too many these days want to go straight to the top, manual work seems to be regarded as demeaning these days . I wonder if there are any figures to show who is doing these jobs, I would from my knowledge that it is the immigrants that fill these jobs and is one reason that the attitude of the british workshy must change Of course I'm not saying that all unemployed people are criminals, I was referring to the ones that you mentioned, where you said at least one of them was a poacher and a thief. So if you wouldn't hire them, you shouldn't expect other businesses to hire them either. Businesses want the best employees they can get, not scraping the bottom of the barrel to give someone a job who doesn't even want it. When they can get excellent candidates from the EU, why should you force them to harm their own business by hiring local, but useless thieves?" So what does the country do about the workshy ? | |||
