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The different faces of Nationalism
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
Can't help but compare the difference between how Scottish Nationalism and English Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
Scottish Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, even England- but on an equal standing.
English Nationslists believe that England is superior to the other home Nations and that the United Kinhdom is rightly controlled by the will of the English. English superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable because the English should not be seen to be party to any political union unless they have control over it.
I cant help but think that if English Nationalists were more accepting of the fact that we are just as equal as others around us, then this country might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
I find it amusing when Scotland play sport most English supporters shout them on, when England play it seems lots of scots shout for their opponents regardless of who they are, just one small point that I think refutes your point,I knowno one who thinks we are superior to anyone or wants us to be |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Couldn't disagree with you more !!!!
I'm an English Nationalist .
I don't think we are supierior at all .
I'd just like my Country to be independent .
Your right on perception tho .
If Thier was an E N P party we would be caused of been racists in an instant ! |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Couldn't disagree with you more !!!!
I'm an English Nationalist .
I don't think we are supierior at all .
I'd just like my Country to be independent .
Your right on perception tho .
If Thier was an E N P party we would be caused of been racists in an instant !"
Yes just as ukip is |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future."
Good post , all of wich means we would be better off on our own , ie England  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Great racial stereotyping bordering on the racist. And as for those cuddly Scots Nats those will be the very same ones who spewed vile abuse at Farage when he visited Scotland and the ones now actively trying to overturn the democratic will of the British people in the Supreme Court. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future.
Good post , all of wich means we would be better off on our own , ie England "
Just thought I'd have some fun with the wording.
There can be more than one opinion on the same subject, and the OP's wording lent itself perfectly to demonstrating this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future.
Good post , all of wich means we would be better off on our own , ie England
Just thought I'd have some fun with the wording.
There can be more than one opinion on the same subject, and the OP's wording lent itself perfectly to demonstrating this."
Was brilliant tho I didn't realise at first lol , silly Old Little Englander Me |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great racial stereotyping bordering on the racist. And as for those cuddly Scots Nats those will be the very same ones who spewed vile abuse at Farage when he visited Scotland and the ones now actively trying to overturn the democratic will of the British people in the Supreme Court. "
Yup that's the ones |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Great racial stereotyping bordering on the racist. And as for those cuddly Scots Nats those will be the very same ones who spewed vile abuse at Farage when he visited Scotland and the ones now actively trying to overturn the democratic will of the British people in the Supreme Court. "
Why is it bordering on racist? It is a comparison of like for like Nationalism as it exists in two countries. The debates about Scotland made by the English invariably revolve around issues that "they" need England, "they" can't survive without England and even on another thread on here someone today stated that Scotland should not influence the United Kingdom because they are only 5.5 million people. In other words, the entire country of Scotland can be bullied into doing what England wants because England is bigger.
All Scotland wants is to be treated as an equal partner as it should be. Many English can't accept that Scotland would want to leave the U.K. yet remain part of the EU. It is simple, they just want to be treated as an equal which in the UK, they are not. |
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2 words......Barnet formula.
The Barnet formula is not an 'equal' deal in the Uk, it benefits Scotland more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If the Scottish nationalists really want England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be equal then why are they not whinging about the Barnet formula and campaigning for it to be changed into a more equal deal? It seems the Scots nats only want to complain when they don't get their own way, but on something unequal like the Barnet formula which they are a net beneficiary of then they are happy to maintain the status quo. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future."
Westminster is a UK parliament remember so Scotland has to right to vote on things if it effects Scotland in anyway.
If the UK is to remain maybe a way to sort everything out if for England to have their own parliament as you see the problem with Westminster is it try's to rule all 4 countries in the UK
And people that believe in independence for Scotland dont think we are superior to any other country. We simply think we should have the right to govern ourselfs and we choose the government we want. Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
As long as Scotland is in the UK then we have as much right to a voice as the 3 other countries the act of the union was signed to make Scotland and England equal partners in the union. It clearly is no union and no partnership which breaks the act of the union. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"2 words......Barnet formula.
The Barnet formula is not an 'equal' deal in the Uk, it benefits Scotland more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If the Scottish nationalists really want England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be equal then why are they not whinging about the Barnet formula and campaigning for it to be changed into a more equal deal? It seems the Scots nats only want to complain when they don't get their own way, but on something unequal like the Barnet formula which they are a net beneficiary of then they are happy to maintain the status quo. "
The Scottish government put forward FFA aka Full Fiscal Autonomy and it was rejected by guess who ? Westminster.
I would quite happy scrap Barnet have have it they way it should be any money raised in Scotland stay's in Scotland. Any money raised in England stay's in England same with Wales and N.Ireland. Oh and Scottish oil stay's in Scotland
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"2 words......Barnet formula.
The Barnet formula is not an 'equal' deal in the Uk, it benefits Scotland more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If the Scottish nationalists really want England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be equal then why are they not whinging about the Barnet formula and campaigning for it to be changed into a more equal deal? It seems the Scots nats only want to complain when they don't get their own way, but on something unequal like the Barnet formula which they are a net beneficiary of then they are happy to maintain the status quo.
The Scottish government put forward FFA aka Full Fiscal Autonomy and it was rejected by guess who ? Westminster.
I would quite happy scrap Barnet have have it they way it should be any money raised in Scotland stay's in Scotland. Any money raised in England stay's in England same with Wales and N.Ireland. Oh and Scottish oil stay's in Scotland
"
No arguement Thier
I'd give you indepence in a flash if I could |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future.
Westminster is a UK parliament remember so Scotland has to right to vote on things if it effects Scotland in anyway.
If the UK is to remain maybe a way to sort everything out if for England to have their own parliament as you see the problem with Westminster is it try's to rule all 4 countries in the UK
And people that believe in independence for Scotland dont think we are superior to any other country. We simply think we should have the right to govern ourselfs and we choose the government we want. Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
As long as Scotland is in the UK then we have as much right to a voice as the 3 other countries the act of the union was signed to make Scotland and England equal partners in the union. It clearly is no union and no partnership which breaks the act of the union. "
Do you think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England should all have equal numbers of MPs in the U.K. Government? |
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"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future.
Westminster is a UK parliament remember so Scotland has to right to vote on things if it effects Scotland in anyway.
If the UK is to remain maybe a way to sort everything out if for England to have their own parliament as you see the problem with Westminster is it try's to rule all 4 countries in the UK
And people that believe in independence for Scotland dont think we are superior to any other country. We simply think we should have the right to govern ourselfs and we choose the government we want. Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
As long as Scotland is in the UK then we have as much right to a voice as the 3 other countries the act of the union was signed to make Scotland and England equal partners in the union. It clearly is no union and no partnership which breaks the act of the union. "
Which Act of Union do you consider it to be in breach of; the Act of Union with Scotland - passed by the English Parliament in 1706, or the Act of Union with England - passed by the Scottish Parliament in 1707.
Not that it really matters because both acts clearly put the then new Parliament of Great Britain, sitting in Westminster, as sovereign. I'm really not sure on what legal bases you're putting forward this argument of 'Equal Partnership' but I can see no basis in law for it. |
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"Considering the fact that neither the BNP or the EDL publish a membership list it begs the question how exactly UKIP polices this ban?
It's a nonsense....."
Anyone who has stood for election for the BNP (in general election, local council election or European election, etc) in the past is public knowledge and is on records. It's very easy to find out who they are. |
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"Exactly !
Yet UKIP were the only party who said you couldn't join if you had been in the B N P !  "
That's probably because UKIP attracts, amongst others, the same sort of people who are attracted to the BNP, EDL and Britain First message.
That's not to say that all members or supporters of UKIP are, or even have sympathy with, those organisations but simply that people who do hold the sort of beliefs that would attract them to those organisations would also be attracted to the UKIP anti immigration, anti foreigner and anti European rhetoric. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Can't help but compare the difference between how United Kingdom Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
United Kingdom Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, whilst being able to control their own destiny.
Scottish Nationalists believe that Scotland, where the United Kingdom is concerned, is superior to the other home Nations and that they have the right to vote on issues that do not involve Scotland in the U.K. Parliament, so controlling other home nations, particularly England. Scottish superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable in U.K. wide 'one person, one vote' referendums, where all votes are equal, even though the UK parliament in which they stand voted through a UK wide referendum on this basis.
I cant help but think that if Scottish Nationalists were more accepting of the fact That all people are equal, that one person's vote carries the same importance as another's, then the UK might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future.
Westminster is a UK parliament remember so Scotland has to right to vote on things if it effects Scotland in anyway.
If the UK is to remain maybe a way to sort everything out if for England to have their own parliament as you see the problem with Westminster is it try's to rule all 4 countries in the UK
And people that believe in independence for Scotland dont think we are superior to any other country. We simply think we should have the right to govern ourselfs and we choose the government we want. Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
As long as Scotland is in the UK then we have as much right to a voice as the 3 other countries the act of the union was signed to make Scotland and England equal partners in the union. It clearly is no union and no partnership which breaks the act of the union.
Which Act of Union do you consider it to be in breach of; the Act of Union with Scotland - passed by the English Parliament in 1706, or the Act of Union with England - passed by the Scottish Parliament in 1707.
Not that it really matters because both acts clearly put the then new Parliament of Great Britain, sitting in Westminster, as sovereign. I'm really not sure on what legal bases you're putting forward this argument of 'Equal Partnership' but I can see no basis in law for it."
Right on the Act of the union when it was signed was to make one parliament which would be Westminster. I already think there is a breach in the Act of the Union
Here is why - When Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland got their own devolved parliament's that breaks the Act of the Union.
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Considering the fact that neither the BNP or the EDL publish a membership list it begs the question how exactly UKIP polices this ban?
It's a nonsense.....
Anyone who has stood for election for the BNP (in general election, local council election or European election, etc) in the past is public knowledge and is on records. It's very easy to find out who they are. "
Standing for election isn't the same as being a member of a political party, I've been a member of the Labour Party for many years but have never stood for election or public Offce....
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Nationalists like communists are not to be trusted one little inch...Be they Tory, SNP .BNP, or any faction of any party. They wrap themselves in the flag of choice and find a bogey man to blame for all the countries ills...Westminster. for the SNP, immigrants for UKIP.....Oh and Jews for some other nationalists...back in the day.......It is a slippery slope folks |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Nationalists like communists are not to be trusted one little inch...Be they Tory, SNP .BNP, or any faction of any party. They wrap themselves in the flag of choice and find a bogey man to blame for all the countries ills...Westminster. for the SNP, immigrants for UKIP.....Oh and Jews for some other nationalists...back in the day.......It is a slippery slope folks"
Political extremes are never good |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"2 words......Barnet formula.
The Barnet formula is not an 'equal' deal in the Uk, it benefits Scotland more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If the Scottish nationalists really want England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be equal then why are they not whinging about the Barnet formula and campaigning for it to be changed into a more equal deal? It seems the Scots nats only want to complain when they don't get their own way, but on something unequal like the Barnet formula which they are a net beneficiary of then they are happy to maintain the status quo.
The Scottish government put forward FFA aka Full Fiscal Autonomy and it was rejected by guess who ? Westminster.
I would quite happy scrap Barnet have have it they way it should be any money raised in Scotland stay's in Scotland. Any money raised in England stay's in England same with Wales and N.Ireland. Oh and Scottish oil stay's in Scotland
"
Scotland has had tax raising powers for 17 years, and hasnt used them once. Why not? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"2 words......Barnet formula.
The Barnet formula is not an 'equal' deal in the Uk, it benefits Scotland more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If the Scottish nationalists really want England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be equal then why are they not whinging about the Barnet formula and campaigning for it to be changed into a more equal deal? It seems the Scots nats only want to complain when they don't get their own way, but on something unequal like the Barnet formula which they are a net beneficiary of then they are happy to maintain the status quo.
The Scottish government put forward FFA aka Full Fiscal Autonomy and it was rejected by guess who ? Westminster.
I would quite happy scrap Barnet have have it they way it should be any money raised in Scotland stay's in Scotland. Any money raised in England stay's in England same with Wales and N.Ireland. Oh and Scottish oil stay's in Scotland
Scotland has had tax raising powers for 17 years, and hasnt used them once. Why not? "
Because the Scots would have to blame themselves then 
They much prefer the English to raise tax then they can blame us |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x"
It doesn't make sense for the SNP to ask for more powers, full fiscal autonomy, if they haven't used powers that they have had for nearly 20 years. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x"
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them "
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have? "
Honestly dont know but its maybe while still part of uk they dont want to ask scots to pay more tax than the rest of uk ,and its not just them who never used the powers as labour were in power here for a long time and never used them |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have? "
You say 20 years Scotland hasnt used powers. Right i will point out 9 years of SNP and the rest is been under Labour/ Lib Dem so are you saying they didnt use the powers ?
It says alot that people in Scotland have been voting SNP since 2007 and wiped out Labour in Scotland must be doing something right if the people are voting for them. Also 120,000 + members not bad.
Scotland has the best record in the NHS and education in the UK not bad when we have a set budget to work with.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have?
You say 20 years Scotland hasnt used powers. Right i will point out 9 years of SNP and the rest is been under Labour/ Lib Dem so are you saying they didnt use the powers ?
It says alot that people in Scotland have been voting SNP since 2007 and wiped out Labour in Scotland must be doing something right if the people are voting for them. Also 120,000 + members not bad.
Scotland has the best record in the NHS and education in the UK not bad when we have a set budget to work with.
"
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have?
Honestly dont know but its maybe while still part of uk they dont want to ask scots to pay more tax than the rest of uk ,and its not just them who never used the powers as labour were in power here for a long time and never used them "
Although they are called "tax raising powers" they can raise them or lower them. Yet they haven't done either, Scotland has just done exactly what Westminster have done. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have?
You say 20 years Scotland hasnt used powers. Right i will point out 9 years of SNP and the rest is been under Labour/ Lib Dem so are you saying they didnt use the powers ?
It says alot that people in Scotland have been voting SNP since 2007 and wiped out Labour in Scotland must be doing something right if the people are voting for them. Also 120,000 + members not bad.
Scotland has the best record in the NHS and education in the UK not bad when we have a set budget to work with.
"
That's my point though, Scotland doesn't have a set budget to work with, it can raise, or lower taxes, but hasn't, why? No Scottish government, of any party has used these powers that they have had since 1999. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have?
You say 20 years Scotland hasnt used powers. Right i will point out 9 years of SNP and the rest is been under Labour/ Lib Dem so are you saying they didnt use the powers ?
It says alot that people in Scotland have been voting SNP since 2007 and wiped out Labour in Scotland must be doing something right if the people are voting for them. Also 120,000 + members not bad.
Scotland has the best record in the NHS and education in the UK not bad when we have a set budget to work with.
That's my point though, Scotland doesn't have a set budget to work with, it can raise, or lower taxes, but hasn't, why? No Scottish government, of any party has used these powers that they have had since 1999."
Right now all tax bands in Scotland have to be raised or lowered. Labour's rejected plan is to rise tax on the poor to cover Tory austerity.
Also there is loopholes that need to be shutdown for example if the SNP were to agree on the 50p tax rate what stops the well off people moving away from Scotland to avoid paying tax ?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Ooh who claimed our NHS and education in Scotland was any good?.......If you have any relations who work in these sectors ask them...It is a tale of confusion and budget cuts, Oh and the council tax freeze what a pile of poo that has been aiding the well off at the expense of the poorer members in our society. As for gaining power the SNP mask is slipping ...no majority now and with transport added to there woes it is obvious they are a one trick pony....a total lack of talent once you take away Nicola and Ian Swinney...Oh and what about the Scottish roar at Westminster ?...a feeble response and at times an embarrassing one ... |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Ooh who claimed our NHS and education in Scotland was any good?.......If you have any relations who work in these sectors ask them...It is a tale of confusion and budget cuts, Oh and the council tax freeze what a pile of poo that has been aiding the well off at the expense of the poorer members in our society. As for gaining power the SNP mask is slipping ...no majority now and with transport added to there woes it is obvious they are a one trick pony....a total lack of talent once you take away Nicola and Ian Swinney...Oh and what about the Scottish roar at Westminster ?...a feeble response and at times an embarrassing one ... "
Ok i get your mad with the SNP thats cool thats your opinion.
The fact remains that Scotland has the best record in the NHS and education in the UK. 90% of patients are happy with their treatment in Scotland.
As for the cuts those are Tory cuts as money is not devolved so the SNP have to work with the budget they get.
The SNP mask is not slipping people have been voting for them since 2007 and they have 120,000 + members
Yes they are a minority government but they were two short of being a majority still not bad for a party that people say its losing its touch.
As for the SNP mp's down in Westminster well at least you can say they are actually fighting against the Tories and opposing them at every turn while the Labour party is either abstaining or voting with the Tories
You may not agree with the SNP but no one can say they are not fighting against the Tories.
And for the council tax i remember back in 2007 when the SNP said they will scrap the council tax in their 2007 manifesto and they won their minority government in 2007 and when the vote on the council tax took place Labour and the Tories voted against scrapping the council tax fast forward to 2016 Scottish elections and Scottish Labour had the scrapping of the council tax in their manifesto the same party that voted with the Tories against scrapping it in Scotland.
As for transport this whole train delays in Scotland and putting it back into public hands Labour were in government for 13 years and didnt do that and again now they are trying to take the high road and say the SNP should do that when its not devolved to Scotland all the SNP can do is say to the company in charge of Scotrail to improve or they are out. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Yes tax raising powers.........But as you say then the SNP would not be able to blame Westminster for the inevitable unpopularity that would follow.....As i say they need a bogey man...But never confuse the SNP with Scottish people.. they are a sadly large faction ...but still just a faction, popular only due to the lack of credible opposistion x
It does seem that the snp have the support of the majority of scottish ppl or they wouldnt be in power for as long as they have been,they are getting stronger and and will also take control of most local councils too after the elections in may so it looks like the majority are happy with them
But why are they asking for more powers when they haven't used all the powers they already have?
You say 20 years Scotland hasnt used powers. Right i will point out 9 years of SNP and the rest is been under Labour/ Lib Dem so are you saying they didnt use the powers ?
It says alot that people in Scotland have been voting SNP since 2007 and wiped out Labour in Scotland must be doing something right if the people are voting for them. Also 120,000 + members not bad.
Scotland has the best record in the NHS and education in the UK not bad when we have a set budget to work with.
That's my point though, Scotland doesn't have a set budget to work with, it can raise, or lower taxes, but hasn't, why? No Scottish government, of any party has used these powers that they have had since 1999.
Right now all tax bands in Scotland have to be raised or lowered. Labour's rejected plan is to rise tax on the poor to cover Tory austerity.
Also there is loopholes that need to be shutdown for example if the SNP were to agree on the 50p tax rate what stops the well off people moving away from Scotland to avoid paying tax ?
"
Every country in the world faces the senario that if you raise taxes, the rich might move away. Or if you raise it, you might attract more. That's not a loop hole. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"
As for the cuts those are Tory cuts as money is not devolved so the SNP have to work with the budget they get.
"
That is factually incorrect.
The Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers (and tax lowering). If they are not happy with the amount of money they receive, they have the power to adjust taxes to the point where they get the amount they think they need.
This is a power that the Scottish parliament has had since 1999. |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"
As for the cuts those are Tory cuts as money is not devolved so the SNP have to work with the budget they get.
That is factually incorrect.
The Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers (and tax lowering). If they are not happy with the amount of money they receive, they have the power to adjust taxes to the point where they get the amount they think they need.
This is a power that the Scottish parliament has had since 1999. "
It is a loophole that needs closed.
Also fact is it is Tory cuts there is no hiding that. Money is not devolved to the Scotland government.
Which party have won over people by raising tax ?
At this point ALL tax bands in Scotland have to either rise or get lowered Labour in Scotland out in their manifesto to raise tax to cover Tory austerity they were rejected in May2016
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"
As for the cuts those are Tory cuts as money is not devolved so the SNP have to work with the budget they get.
That is factually incorrect.
The Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers (and tax lowering). If they are not happy with the amount of money they receive, they have the power to adjust taxes to the point where they get the amount they think they need.
This is a power that the Scottish parliament has had since 1999.
1)It is a loophole that needs closed.
2)Also fact is it is Tory cuts there is no hiding that. Money is not devolved to the Scotland government.
3)Which party have won over people by raising tax ?
4)At this point ALL tax bands in Scotland have to either rise or get lowered Labour in Scotland out in their manifesto to raise tax to cover Tory austerity they were rejected in May2016
"
1) how do you plan to close what you describe as a loophole? You want people who dont live in Scotland, to still pay tax in Scotland. I presume that which ever country they do reside in will still want to tax them, so are you proposing that Scottish people are taxed twice? Once by the country of residence and once by the "motherland"? What happens if someone is born in say Cardiff, moves to Edinburgh for 5 years to work, then moves back to Cardiff. Do they have to pay double taxes for the rest of their lives, or does it just apply to people born in Scotland who subsequently leave?
2) with they amount of money Scotland got under the Barnet formula, cuts would have to be made, but the Scottish Parliament got to decide where those cuts would fall in the devolved areas (education, health etx.) did they not? Had parliament thought "actually we need more money to properly fund our public services" then they had the power to raise taxes so they had as much as they felt they needed.
3) Pretty much every Labour government in history.
4) if Labour said that they would use the powers given to the Scottish Parliament to raise taxes so that there wouldn't be austerity in Scotland, but the public voted for an SNP government who wouldn't raise taxes, but instead would cut public services, at that point it was no longer Tory cuts, or Tory austerity, it was SNP cuts, and SNP austerity.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ooh who claimed our NHS and education in Scotland was any good?.......If you have any relations who work in these sectors ask them...It is a tale of confusion and budget cuts, Oh and the council tax freeze what a pile of poo that has been aiding the well off at the expense of the poorer members in our society. As for gaining power the SNP mask is slipping ...no majority now and with transport added to there woes it is obvious they are a one trick pony....a total lack of talent once you take away Nicola and Ian Swinney...Oh and what about the Scottish roar at Westminster ?...a feeble response and at times an embarrassing one ... "
And breathe lol ,sounds like your hurting because the majority in scotland support snp and have totally wiped labour from the political map |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I am certainly hurting that so many of my fellow Scots have been duped by this bunch of no marks.I am always a little disappointed that the SNP members always quote what Labour did or did not do stand or fall by your own achievements please I am not a member of any party ...just to clear up that little barb, I have voted for two different parties in my lifetime as i am what i would describe as someone to the right of Labour but waaay to the left of the SNP....What again was the Scottish Governments underspend last year ?...And how does that square with your anti-tory austerity stance...Yes they are Bullshitters...always have been and continue to be Lackeys dressed as rebels.....xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Oh they would take it.....Political dogma overrides any consideration of the effects it will have on the society at large....A budget deficit that would lead to a massive tax hike and cut in all vital services...Yet still the bluster..but it will not happen they are a spent force there moment has passed xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh they would take it.....Political dogma overrides any consideration of the effects it will have on the society at large....A budget deficit that would lead to a massive tax hike and cut in all vital services...Yet still the bluster..but it will not happen they are a spent force there moment has passed xx"
Yes but I'd like them to take it lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Oh honey i am sorry like Yorkshire folk the majority of Scots have there heads screwed on the right way...So why not lead a case for Yorkshire independence.. Oh i know Ms Sturgeon could lead the cause....She would talk the talk but would be unable to walk the walk.... |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Oh honey i am sorry like Yorkshire folk the majority of Scots have there heads screwed on the right way...So why not lead a case for Yorkshire independence.. Oh i know Ms Sturgeon could lead the cause....She would talk the talk but would be unable to walk the walk.... "
He is going to form the Mr Suit National Party, create his own country and have a pic of his bum on his national flag! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh honey i am sorry like Yorkshire folk the majority of Scots have there heads screwed on the right way...So why not lead a case for Yorkshire independence.. Oh i know Ms Sturgeon could lead the cause....She would talk the talk but would be unable to walk the walk....
He is going to form the Mr Suit National Party, create his own country and have a pic of his bum on his national flag! "
Now why didn't I think of that
Tho I'd Probbally prefer to have a pic of you on the Flag if you Joined
I'd happily have you in my Goverment
No good just having one point of view |
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"Oh honey i am sorry like Yorkshire folk the majority of Scots have there heads screwed on the right way...So why not lead a case for Yorkshire independence.. Oh i know Ms Sturgeon could lead the cause....She would talk the talk but would be unable to walk the walk....
He is going to form the Mr Suit National Party, create his own country and have a pic of his bum on his national flag!
Now why didn't I think of that
Tho I'd Probbally prefer to have a pic of you on the Flag if you Joined
I'd happily have you in my Goverment
No good just having one point of view "
Stop stealing my dad ideas and pretending there your own. Bloody typical nationalists. grrrrr
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"Oh honey i am sorry like Yorkshire folk the majority of Scots have there heads screwed on the right way...So why not lead a case for Yorkshire independence.. Oh i know Ms Sturgeon could lead the cause....She would talk the talk but would be unable to walk the walk....
He is going to form the Mr Suit National Party, create his own country and have a pic of his bum on his national flag! "
Your welcome to take my idea and run with it, for now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh honey i am sorry like Yorkshire folk the majority of Scots have there heads screwed on the right way...So why not lead a case for Yorkshire independence.. Oh i know Ms Sturgeon could lead the cause....She would talk the talk but would be unable to walk the walk....
He is going to form the Mr Suit National Party, create his own country and have a pic of his bum on his national flag!
Your welcome to take my idea and run with it, for now. "
Thank you |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
Returning to the OPs original post;
Brexit Nationalists tend to support the UK remaining. So they don't want to work within a larger organisation for mutual benefit but feel that the Scots shouldn't moan about it.
There's generally a lot of discussion about people who disagree "moaning"
Scottish nationalists want to leave one supranational organisation (the UK) but remain part of another one (the EU).
Nationalism is at best pointless and at worst vicious. Either you have the "right" to rule yourself, but as one of the richest countries on Earth I'm interested to know how anyone will benefit more. The other alternative is that you promise anything anything to get into power, can't deliver and then blame somebody else.
All wasted effort when you could be trying to improve everything. That's complicated and difficult though. Better to provide a mythical easy solution  |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"
As for the cuts those are Tory cuts as money is not devolved so the SNP have to work with the budget they get.
That is factually incorrect.
The Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers (and tax lowering). If they are not happy with the amount of money they receive, they have the power to adjust taxes to the point where they get the amount they think they need.
This is a power that the Scottish parliament has had since 1999.
1)It is a loophole that needs closed.
2)Also fact is it is Tory cuts there is no hiding that. Money is not devolved to the Scotland government.
3)Which party have won over people by raising tax ?
4)At this point ALL tax bands in Scotland have to either rise or get lowered Labour in Scotland out in their manifesto to raise tax to cover Tory austerity they were rejected in May2016
1) how do you plan to close what you describe as a loophole? You want people who dont live in Scotland, to still pay tax in Scotland. I presume that which ever country they do reside in will still want to tax them, so are you proposing that Scottish people are taxed twice? Once by the country of residence and once by the "motherland"? What happens if someone is born in say Cardiff, moves to Edinburgh for 5 years to work, then moves back to Cardiff. Do they have to pay double taxes for the rest of their lives, or does it just apply to people born in Scotland who subsequently leave?
2) with they amount of money Scotland got under the Barnet formula, cuts would have to be made, but the Scottish Parliament got to decide where those cuts would fall in the devolved areas (education, health etx.) did they not? Had parliament thought "actually we need more money to properly fund our public services" then they had the power to raise taxes so they had as much as they felt they needed.
3) Pretty much every Labour government in history.
4) if Labour said that they would use the powers given to the Scottish Parliament to raise taxes so that there wouldn't be austerity in Scotland, but the public voted for an SNP government who wouldn't raise taxes, but instead would cut public services, at that point it was no longer Tory cuts, or Tory austerity, it was SNP cuts, and SNP austerity.
"
Are we going to get any answers about these "loopholes"? |
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
"Returning to the OPs original post;
Brexit Nationalists tend to support the UK remaining. So they don't want to work within a larger organisation for mutual benefit but feel that the Scots shouldn't moan about it.
There's generally a lot of discussion about people who disagree "moaning"
Scottish nationalists want to leave one supranational organisation (the UK) but remain part of another one (the EU).
Nationalism is at best pointless and at worst vicious. Either you have the "right" to rule yourself, but as one of the richest countries on Earth I'm interested to know how anyone will benefit more. The other alternative is that you promise anything anything to get into power, can't deliver and then blame somebody else.
All wasted effort when you could be trying to improve everything. That's complicated and difficult though. Better to provide a mythical easy solution "
Ah the point being there is 27 independent countries in the EU.
The UK is suppose to be an equal partnership but that so called equal partnership is going to drag Scotland out of the EU when ALL of Scotland local council areas voted to remain.
All countries should be independent.
i will ask this why do Westminster want to keep Scotland so badly in the UK ?
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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago
The Council of Elrond |
""All countries should be independent"
Why's that then?"
Well every country should have the right to govern itself and the people of that country should vote the party it wants to govern. Like i said Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
""All countries should be independent"
Why's that then?
Well every country should have the right to govern itself and the people of that country should vote the party it wants to govern. Like i said Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
"
I didn't vote for a Tory government. Neither did a fairly large number of constituencies. I suspect that a lot of Scots didn't vote for an SNP government. That's how democracy works and a majority doesn't give you the right to do anything that you want either.
I still don't see what that has to do with independence. Should London be independent? Should the Orkneys? Your street? Some random block of flats? What's the point? What's the benefit? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
""All countries should be independent"
Why's that then?
Well every country should have the right to govern itself and the people of that country should vote the party it wants to govern. Like i said Scotland didnt vote for a Tory government.
I didn't vote for a Tory government. Neither did a fairly large number of constituencies. I suspect that a lot of Scots didn't vote for an SNP government. That's how democracy works and a majority doesn't give you the right to do anything that you want either.
I still don't see what that has to do with independence. Should London be independent? Should the Orkneys? Your street? Some random block of flats? What's the point? What's the benefit?"
Exactly, working together achieves benefits greater than what can be accomplished alone. |
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"Returning to the OPs original post;
Brexit Nationalists tend to support the UK remaining. So they don't want to work within a larger organisation for mutual benefit but feel that the Scots shouldn't moan about it.
There's generally a lot of discussion about people who disagree "moaning"
Scottish nationalists want to leave one supranational organisation (the UK) but remain part of another one (the EU).
Nationalism is at best pointless and at worst vicious. Either you have the "right" to rule yourself, but as one of the richest countries on Earth I'm interested to know how anyone will benefit more. The other alternative is that you promise anything anything to get into power, can't deliver and then blame somebody else.
All wasted effort when you could be trying to improve everything. That's complicated and difficult though. Better to provide a mythical easy solution
Ah the point being there is 27 independent countries in the EU.
The UK is suppose to be an equal partnership but that so called equal partnership is going to drag Scotland out of the EU when ALL of Scotland local council areas voted to remain.
All countries should be independent.
i will ask this why do Westminster want to keep Scotland so badly in the UK ?
"
But where does a country start and another one begin. Should everything north of Hadrian's Wall be considered Scottish, it was at one time, as has Carlisle. There again Edinburgh used to be part of English Northumbria. Should the Celts in Central and Northern Scotland have their own country or should they have to share it with the Anglo-Saxons from the South of Scotland. And what about Shetland, they're more Danish than Celtic or Anglo Saxon. Once you start going down the rout of every peoples having their own country it just gets more and more divisive.
And just to throw another spanner in the works, the Scots (which Scotland is actually named after) actually originally come from Ireland, they arrived in what we now call Scotland at about the same time as the Anglo Saxons. |
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"That is ethnic nationalism. Practice civic nationalism instead. (Its not about where you are from, its about where you are.)"
And where we are now is in the United Kingdon and the European Union. I see nothing but unnecessary division in breaking or leaving either. I also believe that breaking up or leaving either would more than likely lead to the breakup of the other. However, with a little luck and the continued incompetence and failure to follow the correct procedures and processes that BREXITers have so far displayed, it might well still be possible to save both.
I'll save my anti SNP arguments for another thread. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I am an Actual Nationalist, an English one makes no difference with regards to the principles of nationalism. all people should be able to determine their own future if they wish. If the Scottish truly wish to go their own way then I wish them the best of luck. Genuinely so. This is one of the universal principles Nationalism.
Sometimes people get confused with a patriotic liberal or a patriotic conservative and nationalist.
Liberal patriotism is weak individualism and capitalistic.
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"where is that box of labels lol jeez some people like sticking them on! talk about judgmental  "
Calling people judgemental, is , in itself , judgemental |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nationalists like communists are not to be trusted one little inch...Be they Tory, SNP .BNP, or any faction of any party. They wrap themselves in the flag of choice and find a bogey man to blame for all the countries ills...Westminster. for the SNP, immigrants for UKIP.....Oh and Jews for some other nationalists...back in the day.......It is a slippery slope folks
Political extremes are never good"
Silencing political extremes is far worse. All extremes should be squarely in the public eye and conversation, that way they can be monitored. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Can't help but compare the difference between how Scottish Nationalism and English Nationalism is demonstrated by the respective patriots.
Scottish Nationalists want to be free of a Union that they are supposed to be an equal party to, but to whom instead they are subservient. They wish to retain equal partnerships with their close European neighbours, even England- but on an equal standing.
English Nationslists believe that England is superior to the other home Nations and that the United Kinhdom is rightly controlled by the will of the English. English superiority means that equal partnerships with anyone are not acceptable because the English should not be seen to be party to any political union unless they have control over it.
I cant help but think that if English Nationalists were more accepting of the fact that we are just as equal as others around us, then this country might be in a much better place than we are in at the moment. An unwarranted sense of entitlement is not a good foundation on which to base our post Brexit future."
I think people here go on about nationalism as though people are really concerned about most people are perfectly happy in all four provinces of the uk |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online"
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool."
I disagree but on the other side a lot voted to stay in the EU because they decided they are europeans is that nationalism ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool."
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU? "
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist. |
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU? "
Because the eu was seen as pro big business/pro capitalist by the old left. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
Because the eu was seen as pro big business/pro capitalist by the old left."
And anti democratic. It is still seen in those ways by the left today. Just not by the Labour Party |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist."
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class. "
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class. "
Nationalism certainly played a part.
Many working class areas are still patriotic despite being labour strongholds and brexit played a part in that.
The disenfranchisememt bit goes back to the Blair, Miliband and brown years.The red wall felt left behind by labour so in their wisdom when presented with a genuine centre left option decided instead to vote in a right wing gmnt.
Immigration also played a part. |
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class. "
Before 2016 the eh wasmt even on the radar apart from the rantimgs of the mail and the sun
The economy and the NHS were always the big issues |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class.
Before 2016 the eh wasmt even on the radar apart from the rantimgs of the mail and the sun
The economy and the NHS were always the big issues "
It wasn't on the radar because it wouldn't have headlines, and because we had far bigger issues, eg the economy and the NHS lol, but farages career shows it was always bubbling away under the surface. Johnson isnt that good at propaganda to push that win through, our government has never been good at getting us to just fall in line, look at the Iraq war opposition or the amount of resistance there is to the covid rules, I think that the win happened because he just poked the sleeping bear. |
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class.
Before 2016 the eh wasmt even on the radar apart from the rantimgs of the mail and the sun
The economy and the NHS were always the big issues
It wasn't on the radar because it wouldn't have headlines, and because we had far bigger issues, eg the economy and the NHS lol, but farages career shows it was always bubbling away under the surface. Johnson isnt that good at propaganda to push that win through, our government has never been good at getting us to just fall in line, look at the Iraq war opposition or the amount of resistance there is to the covid rules, I think that the win happened because he just poked the sleeping bear. "
It only really became an issue because Cameron wanted to silence the swivel headed loons like reece mogg etc.
If he hadn't have done Farage would have remained an irrelevance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class. "
A large proportion of the slogans that convinced people to vote leave are based on nationalism. People still repeat them on the forums here.
I take your point about the mistrust of the EU. It's purely based on the lies spouted for years by the right wing media in this country.
https://inktank.fi/this-list-of-all-euromyths-printed-by-uk-media-proves-how-much-right-wing-press-lies/
I find it a little patronising to blame the working class for being easily manipulated into blaming the EU for all their woes.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the UK the amount of people with any real political interest in nationalism is very small,political party membership is small it is just a pub conversation pubs closed so comes online
A lot of the pro brexit propaganda was based on nationalism. It's a powerful tool.
If that is true, why was Corbyn anti EU? He always was until it could affect his position and voter base with Labour. He's not a nationalist. Nothing like it. My point is, if he was and he's not a nationalist or pro British in any form, what was his reasoning for being anti EU?
What's Corbyn got to do with anything?
All I said was that nationalism was used as a propaganda tool. Doesn't mean every brexiteer is a nationalist.
You said a lot and that it was a powerful tool, but it really isn't, that is an excuse given by remain for the reason they lost. The truth is that there has been widespread mistrust of the EU for decades in all circles, including and most importantly the kind of circles that corbyn has always been involved in engaging with and advocating for, the working class. The reason that brexit is blamed on nationalism and not the working class being desperate for some kind of (even though they still don't really have) say in their future, is that the word nationalism is very easy to tie to racism and xenophobia. And as soon as those words come up, you can wipe away the fact that brexit came about due to the disenfranchisement of the working class.
Before 2016 the eh wasmt even on the radar apart from the rantimgs of the mail and the sun
The economy and the NHS were always the big issues "
Are you having a laugh or do you have a really short memory? Tony Blair promised to hold an EU referendum if he got elected. But of course went back on the idea once in power because he liked the idea of the gravy train |
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"where is that box of labels lol jeez some people like sticking them on! talk about judgmental
Calling people judgemental, is , in itself , judgemental "
what would you call sticking labels on people? out of interest for when you use the same sentence again! |
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"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!  
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday. "
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play |
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"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday.
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play There goes your chance of winning then. "
Already have the important silverware in the cabinet |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday.
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play There goes your chance of winning then.
Already have the important silverware in the cabinet "
I bet that cabinet took some cleaning once someone remembered where it was. |
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"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday.
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play There goes your chance of winning then.
Already have the important silverware in the cabinet I bet that cabinet took some cleaning once someone remembered where it was. "
It’s only been a year since we had to hand it back... not even enough time for a layer of dust to accumulate |
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"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday.
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play There goes your chance of winning then.
Already have the important silverware in the cabinet I bet that cabinet took some cleaning once someone remembered where it was.
It’s only been a year since we had to hand it back... not even enough time for a layer of dust to accumulate Sorry i forgot the calcutta cup is your main trophy. "
It’s the oldest and most respected one to have ... |
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"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday.
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play There goes your chance of winning then.
Already have the important silverware in the cabinet I bet that cabinet took some cleaning once someone remembered where it was.
It’s only been a year since we had to hand it back... not even enough time for a layer of dust to accumulate Sorry i forgot the calcutta cup is your main trophy.
It’s the oldest and most respected one to have ... Well im torn what blue team to support this week if it goes ahead. "
Visitors play in home strip |
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"Well I can tell you this much as a proud Welsh man I only ever support two teams WALES and whoever the English are playing simple!!
Nothing new there then bet your the same mate.
i see you have struck it lucky with a depleted french team saturday.
Match will be postponed ... there will be more positives in the coming days ... will be unsafe for Scotland to play There goes your chance of winning then.
Already have the important silverware in the cabinet I bet that cabinet took some cleaning once someone remembered where it was.
It’s only been a year since we had to hand it back... not even enough time for a layer of dust to accumulate Sorry i forgot the calcutta cup is your main trophy.
It’s the oldest and most respected one to have ... Well im torn what blue team to support this week if it goes ahead.
Visitors play in home strip Allez le france "
Allez Les Bleus ... just in case there are any dual nationals  |
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"
As for the cuts those are Tory cuts as money is not devolved so the SNP have to work with the budget they get.
That is factually incorrect.
The Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers (and tax lowering). If they are not happy with the amount of money they receive, they have the power to adjust taxes to the point where they get the amount they think they need.
This is a power that the Scottish parliament has had since 1999. "
And in April 2017, the Scottish Government introduced its own tax bands; raising some rates and lowering others - so that more of the tax burden fell on those most able to pay it.
So, contrary to your ill-informed bullshit, Scotland has been raising taxes its own way for almost four years.
Given your political persuasion and your geographical location, your ignorance of the facts is entirely unsurprising. |
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