FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Can someone please explain to me in simple terms....
Can someone please explain to me in simple terms....
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"Why the following is a bad thing.... Putin, president of the USSR and Trump, soon to be president of the USA both claim to be committed to wanting to see dramatic improvements in the relationship between the USSR and the USA." They're both mad and the voices in their head told them to say it  | |||
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"Why the following is a bad thing.... Putin, president of the USSR and Trump, soon to be president of the USA both claim to be committed to wanting to see dramatic improvements in the relationship between the USSR and the USA." The USSR no longer exists. Lets start there.  | |||
"Why the following is a bad thing.... Putin, president of the USSR and Trump, soon to be president of the USA both claim to be committed to wanting to see dramatic improvements in the relationship between the USSR and the USA. The USSR no longer exists. Lets start there. "Okay, fair point. So, replace USSR with Russia. Oh by the way, the states in America don't seem particularly united any more!!! | |||
"can you please explain why all these posts cant go into the politics forum...?" | |||
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"can you please explain why all these posts cant go into the politics forum...? " | |||
"Whereas Hillary was actively agitating for a war with Russia. Don't try to tell the enlightened ones that though, they'll just stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and say "but RACIST" over and over. " | |||
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"If you were sitting in the Baltic States right now, and perhaps other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, you'd be pretty worried right now - stuck between a predatory Putin and an upcoming president that no longer gives a shit about your fate. Where exactly is the evidence that Clinton wanted war with Russia? I hope she wouldn't have let them have a free hand to mop up all the former Eastern Bloc states or bomb the shit out of civilians in Syria. " Simple solution for those Nato countries in Europe, start to honour your Nato spending commitments instead of falling short and expecting America to pick up the bill all the time. Americans have every right to be pissed off about it. | |||
"If you were sitting in the Baltic States right now, and perhaps other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, you'd be pretty worried right now - stuck between a predatory Putin and an upcoming president that no longer gives a shit about your fate. Where exactly is the evidence that Clinton wanted war with Russia? I hope she wouldn't have let them have a free hand to mop up all the former Eastern Bloc states or bomb the shit out of civilians in Syria. " The Syrian no fly zone would not be recognised by Putin. And why would he... USA meddling again. Clintbot can only then shoot down the Russians and then u have WW3. Trump wax lyrical about using nukes? Good on him.... makes the enemy think twice about having a pop. All is well in the world now..... until the UK government lose out on Brexit, general election called and Corbyn gets in..... then we have issues!!!!!!! | |||
"If you were sitting in the Baltic States right now, and perhaps other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, you'd be pretty worried right now - stuck between a predatory Putin and an upcoming president that no longer gives a shit about your fate. Where exactly is the evidence that Clinton wanted war with Russia? I hope she wouldn't have let them have a free hand to mop up all the former Eastern Bloc states or bomb the shit out of civilians in Syria. Simple solution for those Nato countries in Europe, start to honour your Nato spending commitments instead of falling short and expecting America to pick up the bill all the time. Americans have every right to be pissed off about it. " I agree on the whole American's having a right to get a little pissy wit nations which don't even try to keep up with military spending (exception to those nations with far greater problems). That said, if Trump is serious about this he should probably clarify that he will honour NATO regulations and come to other members aid, so long as commitments to spending are re-addressed. | |||
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"Putin is rebuilding the old USSR and has been rearming and upgrading his weapons systems for years. During the same period we (the West) have been cutting back on military strength in personnel, materials, training, research and development, while at the same time selling off the organisations that held the talent to foreign powers (mainly the USA). Now Trump is threatening to withdraw support for NATO and return to the isolationism of the 30's, but on steroids. Combine the 2 above and add in the possibility that Trump owes Vlad for Russian help to win the whitehouse through leaking hacked democrat computer files. We are left with Europe and the UK in a very vulnerable position. Add to the fact that Brexit further destabilises the unity of Europe and the fact that with our present output capacity and skilled labour pool we are looking at a timescale of decades rather than years to return our armed forces to their pre-Soviet collapse levels I would say the outlook is bleak and if Putin decides to move we will have no choice but to move quickly to nuclear options or sue for terms and hope that a man with a reputation similar to Stalin or the Tzars will show mercy. My prognosis: We are well and truly up shit creak! My only positive bits of news: I am now too old and unwell to be recalled to service in any sort of active duty roll and if it does kick off I live less than 3 miles from ground zero of one of the most obvious multi-megaton warhead targets so the most I will observe is a flash and it will be over for me. . . . . Is that simple enough OP? " Utter BS. the US spent 10 times the amount Russia did on military last year with 540 billion compared to Russia' 50 billion. Stop fear mongering. Russia doesn't want conflict and they only increased their spending on arms because for the last decade the west as been invading countries left and right and placing missile systems around Russia's borders. Today is a good day in that russia and america will start rebuilding relations and for now any ww3 is averted. | |||
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"Putin is rebuilding the old USSR and has been rearming and upgrading his weapons systems for years. During the same period we (the West) have been cutting back on military strength in personnel, materials, training, research and development, while at the same time selling off the organisations that held the talent to foreign powers (mainly the USA). Now Trump is threatening to withdraw support for NATO and return to the isolationism of the 30's, but on steroids. Combine the 2 above and add in the possibility that Trump owes Vlad for Russian help to win the whitehouse through leaking hacked democrat computer files. We are left with Europe and the UK in a very vulnerable position. Add to the fact that Brexit further destabilises the unity of Europe and the fact that with our present output capacity and skilled labour pool we are looking at a timescale of decades rather than years to return our armed forces to their pre-Soviet collapse levels I would say the outlook is bleak and if Putin decides to move we will have no choice but to move quickly to nuclear options or sue for terms and hope that a man with a reputation similar to Stalin or the Tzars will show mercy. My prognosis: We are well and truly up shit creak! My only positive bits of news: I am now too old and unwell to be recalled to service in any sort of active duty roll and if it does kick off I live less than 3 miles from ground zero of one of the most obvious multi-megaton warhead targets so the most I will observe is a flash and it will be over for me. . . . . Is that simple enough OP? Utter BS. the US spent 10 times the amount Russia did on military last year with 540 billion compared to Russia' 50 billion. Stop fear mongering. Russia doesn't want conflict and they only increased their spending on arms because for the last decade the west as been invading countries left and right and placing missile systems around Russia's borders. Today is a good day in that russia and america will start rebuilding relations and for now any ww3 is averted." Russia probably does not want a conventional conflict because they would likely lose against NATO, even if the US reduces their commitment. However, Russia have developed a sophisticated mixed warfare approach as used in Crimea and parts of Ukraine which is much trickier to counter. The aim will be to increase Russian influence without triggering an all out conflict and weakening of NATO is likely to encourage more of this. If you shift the balance of power there will be a response and talking nicely about it is not likely to achieve a whole lot. | |||
"Well, that's quite simple I guess. I google mapped Moston though, and I'm not quite sure what exactly worth nuking is within three miles? Jodrell Bank is outside of range. Oldham market, well maybe... The trading grounds of Cheetham Hill, well, maybe, The dogging grounds of Heaton Park... The Etihad stadium, well that would fuck Take That's concert... Chorlton-Cum_Hardy... sniggers, I wanna live there! Or maybe there could be a real threat that if the Audenshawe reservoirs get nuked, then the tree towns of Droylsden, Dukinfield and Denton could be washed away? "And you totally missed Manchester city centre. Now having found that, draw a 10 mile radius circle round say the Beetham Tower (reasonable blast range for a 5 megaton yield device exploded at 100,000 ft) and start marking the targets destroyed. of course the whole of Manchester is gone, that includes Manchester Airport, the M56, M67, M60, M602, M62, M61 and all the interlinking motorway junctions, and all the major E/W routes over the pennines. Then there are the rail hubs and 2 engineering depots... Right, so that is the East West road link disrupted and a major part of the north south east west rail network disrupted. not to mention the hospitals and major research establishments within Manchester, Manchester Metropolitan and Salford Universities and the scientists that run them wiped out. Yep! Your right to snugger I bow to your obviously superior knowledge of weapon and target selection when fixing an enemy. i [(note small i) now accept i am totally inadequate when faced with your towering military intellect] obviously i and my teachers failed to understand anything about the problems facing any military (or civilian service) when faced with a first strike. As for the other numpty who says i am fear-mongering. Firstly Trump has said he will ignore NATO article 5. It does not matter how many caveats he placed on the statement it has to be taken at face value and acted on accordingly. Secondly when someone shouted 'gun' at one of his rallies in the last few days his first reaction was to 'duck and run', it must also be concluded that that would be his immediate reaction in a conflict where he felt the US was threatened. Against that you have Putin, the man who put his nuclear forces on standby and targeted the UK, France, and USA homelands without any warnings in case we chose to honer our treaty obligations with regard to protecting the sovereign borders or the Ukraine, and has had Russian dissidents murdered by way of polonium poisoning in London. An obviously overt act Russian State Murder in the UK. The man is ruthless, and would not hesitate to use such force as to destroy this or any other country without hesitation. Now if anyone wishes to contradict me i will answer if a valid point is raised. | |||
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"Putin is rebuilding the old USSR and has been rearming and upgrading his weapons systems for years. During the same period we (the West) have been cutting back on military strength in personnel, materials, training, research and development, while at the same time selling off the organisations that held the talent to foreign powers (mainly the USA). Now Trump is threatening to withdraw support for NATO and return to the isolationism of the 30's, but on steroids. Combine the 2 above and add in the possibility that Trump owes Vlad for Russian help to win the whitehouse through leaking hacked democrat computer files. We are left with Europe and the UK in a very vulnerable position. Add to the fact that Brexit further destabilises the unity of Europe and the fact that with our present output capacity and skilled labour pool we are looking at a timescale of decades rather than years to return our armed forces to their pre-Soviet collapse levels I would say the outlook is bleak and if Putin decides to move we will have no choice but to move quickly to nuclear options or sue for terms and hope that a man with a reputation similar to Stalin or the Tzars will show mercy. My prognosis: We are well and truly up shit creak! My only positive bits of news: I am now too old and unwell to be recalled to service in any sort of active duty roll and if it does kick off I live less than 3 miles from ground zero of one of the most obvious multi-megaton warhead targets so the most I will observe is a flash and it will be over for me. . . . . Is that simple enough OP? Utter BS. the US spent 10 times the amount Russia did on military last year with 540 billion compared to Russia' 50 billion. Stop fear mongering. Russia doesn't want conflict and they only increased their spending on arms because for the last decade the west as been invading countries left and right and placing missile systems around Russia's borders. Today is a good day in that russia and america will start rebuilding relations and for now any ww3 is averted." Thankyou for that, Liverpudlian! Glad to see some sense being talked! | |||
"If you were sitting in the Baltic States right now, and perhaps other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, you'd be pretty worried right now - stuck between a predatory Putin and an upcoming president that no longer gives a shit about your fate. Where exactly is the evidence that Clinton wanted war with Russia? I hope she wouldn't have let them have a free hand to mop up all the former Eastern Bloc states or bomb the shit out of civilians in Syria. The Syrian no fly zone would not be recognised by Putin. And why would he... USA meddling again. Clintbot can only then shoot down the Russians and then u have WW3. Trump wax lyrical about using nukes? Good on him.... makes the enemy think twice about having a pop. All is well in the world now..... until the UK government lose out on Brexit, general election called and Corbyn gets in..... then we have issues!!!!!!!" I understand where you are coming from, that is sincere. But I can't for the life of me see Corbyn ever winning an election. I couldn't even see him winning an egg and spoon race, he is bloody useless. | |||
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"If you were sitting in the Baltic States right now, and perhaps other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, you'd be pretty worried right now - stuck between a predatory Putin and an upcoming president that no longer gives a shit about your fate. Where exactly is the evidence that Clinton wanted war with Russia? I hope she wouldn't have let them have a free hand to mop up all the former Eastern Bloc states or bomb the shit out of civilians in Syria. " Well there was that thing with one of her staff suggesting a pre emptive nuclear strike at russia. She was either going to be the best thing since sliced bread or a war whore, i know where my money is  | |||
"I don't really understand why Manchester would be such a strategically important target. (Yeah, I confess, I deliberately avoided mentioning Manchester) Yeah, as you say, north south and east west communications could be destroyed, but why? To stop hauliers transporting scrap metal from Hull to Liverpool? To stop the Trans Pennine Express? To stop Burnley playing against Leeds at Elland Road? Oh, and the nuke wouldn't stop me getting to work either, I could just go Nantwich, Macc Forest, Buxton! I notice from your post that the M6 and M1 would still be operational, (as would the M5, M74, M606, A1(M), M42, M40, even the M6 Toll, etc)so Scotland and London would be unaffected? I'm sorry, I really do love Manchester. I'm a northerner born and bread, there's nothing quite like the drive over Buckstones etc, but it ain't important enough for Putin to want to obliterate it! Far more damage could be caused by nuking Watford Gap motorway services! (Seriously). That would take out north / south communications and connections by road, rail and canal. Also dropping the odd nuke onto the new Met Police HQ in London would do untold damage. Within 3 miles, that could take out Parliament, Downing Street, the MOD, the Met Police, MI5, MI6, MFI, Lloyds of London, the Bank of England, Buckingham Palace, the West End, the Imperial War Museum, HMS Belfast, the Home Office, Channel 4 and the Burberry Headquarters! "Russia has declared on paper that it has 7,200 nuclear warheads I believe. If he is going to launch one at a nation, he will most likely launch several at all big cities, Manchester being one of the UK's biggest. Basically, put yourself in his shoes, poor Russian economy, most western powers putting tariffs and blocking import and export on trade. Decline home popularity. Then a something which could stifle your post-modern imperialist desires, or an act of aggression. If the situation requires the launch of a nuclear warhead against another nuclear nation, then you are going to level it to minimise the risk of nuclear retaliation. | |||
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"I don't really understand why Manchester would be such a strategically important target. (Yeah, I confess, I deliberately avoided mentioning Manchester) Yeah, as you say, north south and east west communications could be destroyed, but why? To stop hauliers transporting scrap metal from Hull to Liverpool? To stop the Trans Pennine Express? To stop Burnley playing against Leeds at Elland Road? Oh, and the nuke wouldn't stop me getting to work either, I could just go Nantwich, Macc Forest, Buxton! I notice from your post that the M6 and M1 would still be operational, (as would the M5, M74, M606, A1(M), M42, M40, even the M6 Toll, etc)so Scotland and London would be unaffected? I'm sorry, I really do love Manchester. I'm a northerner born and bread, there's nothing quite like the drive over Buckstones etc, but it ain't important enough for Putin to want to obliterate it! Far more damage could be caused by nuking Watford Gap motorway services! (Seriously). That would take out north / south communications and connections by road, rail and canal. Also dropping the odd nuke onto the new Met Police HQ in London would do untold damage. Within 3 miles, that could take out Parliament, Downing Street, the MOD, the Met Police, MI5, MI6, MFI, Lloyds of London, the Bank of England, Buckingham Palace, the West End, the Imperial War Museum, HMS Belfast, the Home Office, Channel 4 and the Burberry Headquarters! "Reasonable question, now a reasonable reply. Firstly, my apologies, in my original post i was commenting on a big picture question and threw in a very small and personal fact into part of the answer and in doing so forgot that I was not speaking to people who have technical understanding understanding of the subject, and would not understand this. It is a failing of mine that infuriates others and i will try harder not to make it in future. Back to the subject at hand, a first strike would not be a single weapon. It would probably start with all non hardened that is most civilian electrical equipment, both mains and battery powered including vehicles and communications failing without obvious cause as a massive electromagnetic pulse caused by 1 or more high yield devices in the upper atmosphere somewhere over the horizon, out to sea detonating (maybe as little as 10 could take out the whole of the European continent). This would be followed by a number of air burst strikes (because they cause maximum damage to infrastructure with minimal persistent radiation contamination). In my opinion this country could be totally immobilised and our military forces not at sea made useless with no more than 15 direct strikes however I do not know if we could even cope with an EMP strike. Unfortunately amongst those 15 strikes are 3 or 4 in a line here the definite being Liverpool (sorry but that port would have to go), Manchester to close the western passage north, Leeds to do the same east of the pennines and maybe Hull (but it could be saved as a potential invasion port) as our cross country resupply would already be denied to us. Glasgow and Edinburgh could expect the same as us in Liverpool and Manchester, and of course the midlands could expect 2 one in Birmingham and one in Derby. Bristol, Plymouth, Portsmouth/southhamton, Dover and London would be on my list too. And I think with that it would be nice knowing you UK. Personally i would hope to go in the first second, I don't think the aftermath would be pretty. I would expect it to start with looting and within days as food and water run out in population centres desperation will set in and people will kill for a slice of bread. I would expect that the population would crash and within a month there would be widespread cannibalism with gangs hunting the lone the young old and the weak to use as food. I would also expect that very quickly firearms will become obsolete and that the most valued weapon will be a long bow and into this will come an invader from either east or west with unused modern arms. If we cant find a way to make Putin think he cant win we are toast because Trump has told the world he and the american people with him as their leader cant be counted on by NATO and the USA was the guarantee that aggression against ant NATO member would not work out well for the aggressor because no matter what happened in the end Uncle Sam would get them. In one smug statement that is gone. That is why we need to star understanding how vulnerable we are and unfortunately the only way I know to reduce that vulnerability is to build more and bigger nukes and our own delivery systems. That takes time we have not got so we need a fast stopgap and the only ones I know of that could in any way work are are the other 2 sides of the WMD triangle. Which do we fancy, weaponized germs or some not so nice chemicals? Me, I vote the chems (at least they dont reproduce!) Welcome to Trumps brave new world, "it will be lovely folks, I'm tellin ya! It will be lovely.." MY ARSE! | |||
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"This is politics forum lol. " Yep and this is a discussion about the implications of the farts pre-victory promise to his electorate that should he become pres he would not be bound by article 5 of the NATO charter. As you can see there is some scepticism and some downright disagreement about those implications, and even if any notice should be paid to them. I am of the opinion that we have to take what he says at face value until we know better or he retracts his words. At which time we need to doubt everything he says because he has lied. Ah he has already done that on many occasions in the last few days never mind months. So back to my default position with a modification. No matter what he says we have to plan and prepare for him to do the worst possible thing to us while in office. My position is not a popular one because it applies to home front politics too and that is a bit close to the knuckle for many here. You should come and play, it makes you think and exercise your brain. (Another unpopular pastime for some). 
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"If you were sitting in the Baltic States right now, and perhaps other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, you'd be pretty worried right now - stuck between a predatory Putin and an upcoming president that no longer gives a shit about your fate. Where exactly is the evidence that Clinton wanted war with Russia? I hope she wouldn't have let them have a free hand to mop up all the former Eastern Bloc states or bomb the shit out of civilians in Syria. Simple solution for those Nato countries in Europe, start to honour your Nato spending commitments instead of falling short and expecting America to pick up the bill all the time. Americans have every right to be pissed off about it. . plus; The Syrian no fly zone would not be recognised by Putin. And why would he... USA meddling again. Clintbot can only then shoot down the Russians and then u have WW3. Trump wax lyrical about using nukes? Good on him.... makes the enemy think twice about having a pop. " | |||
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"Whereas Hillary was actively agitating for a war with Russia. Don't try to tell the enlightened ones that though, they'll just stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and say "but RACIST" over and over. " | |||
"We only know what we are told about Putin by the press, but IF all of it is true then he is a bit of a liability, BUT which side has invaded several countries and tried to impose their ideals upon them? While their leaders were not to our satisfaction are the people of Iraq, libya syria etc better off after the US interfered in their affairs along with Blair who dragged us into it,(perhaps we wouldnt have IS if bush had kept his nose out), if Russia had done that the west would have been up in arms, yes putin is bombing the shit out of people in syria but they wouldsay they are fighting terrorists. The US have done far more war mongering than Russia has, to date anyway " The Americans cleansed Mosul, in the same way as the Russians in Aleppo Best thing is to leave the Arabs to sort their own shit in the way that they choose, and for and refugees to be rehoused in the Middle East, after all it is plenty big enough has enough wealth and they have the same ideals | |||
"I don't really understand why Manchester would be such a strategically important target. (Yeah, I confess, I deliberately avoided mentioning Manchester) Yeah, as you say, north south and east west communications could be destroyed, but why? To stop hauliers transporting scrap metal from Hull to Liverpool? To stop the Trans Pennine Express? To stop Burnley playing against Leeds at Elland Road? Oh, and the nuke wouldn't stop me getting to work either, I could just go Nantwich, Macc Forest, Buxton! I notice from your post that the M6 and M1 would still be operational, (as would the M5, M74, M606, A1(M), M42, M40, even the M6 Toll, etc)so Scotland and London would be unaffected? I'm sorry, I really do love Manchester. I'm a northerner born and bread, there's nothing quite like the drive over Buckstones etc, but it ain't important enough for Putin to want to obliterate it! Far more damage could be caused by nuking Watford Gap motorway services! (Seriously). That would take out north / south communications and connections by road, rail and canal. Also dropping the odd nuke onto the new Met Police HQ in London would do untold damage. Within 3 miles, that could take out Parliament, Downing Street, the MOD, the Met Police, MI5, MI6, MFI, Lloyds of London, the Bank of England, Buckingham Palace, the West End, the Imperial War Museum, HMS Belfast, the Home Office, Channel 4 and the Burberry Headquarters!
Reasonable question, now a reasonable reply.
Firstly, my apologies, in my original post i was commenting on a big picture question and threw in a very small and personal fact into part of the answer and in doing so forgot that I was not speaking to people who have technical understanding understanding of the subject, and would not understand this. It is a failing of mine that infuriates others and i will try harder not to make it in future.
Back to the subject at hand, a first strike would not be a single weapon. It would probably start with all non hardened that is most civilian electrical equipment, both mains and battery powered including vehicles and communications failing without obvious cause as a massive electromagnetic pulse caused by 1 or more high yield devices in the upper atmosphere somewhere over the horizon, out to sea detonating (maybe as little as 10 could take out the whole of the European continent). This would be followed by a number of air burst strikes (because they cause maximum damage to infrastructure with minimal persistent radiation contamination). In my opinion this country could be totally immobilised and our military forces not at sea made useless with no more than 15 direct strikes however I do not know if we could even cope with an EMP strike.
Unfortunately amongst those 15 strikes are 3 or 4 in a line here the definite being Liverpool (sorry but that port would have to go), Manchester to close the western passage north, Leeds to do the same east of the pennines and maybe Hull (but it could be saved as a potential invasion port) as our cross country resupply would already be denied to us.
Glasgow and Edinburgh could expect the same as us in Liverpool and Manchester, and of course the midlands could expect 2 one in Birmingham and one in Derby.
Bristol, Plymouth, Portsmouth/southhamton, Dover and London would be on my list too.
And I think with that it would be nice knowing you UK.
Personally i would hope to go in the first second, I don't think the aftermath would be pretty. I would expect it to start with looting and within days as food and water run out in population centres desperation will set in and people will kill for a slice of bread. I would expect that the population would crash and within a month there would be widespread cannibalism with gangs hunting the lone the young old and the weak to use as food. I would also expect that very quickly firearms will become obsolete and that the most valued weapon will be a long bow and into this will come an invader from either east or west with unused modern arms.
If we cant find a way to make Putin think he cant win we are toast because Trump has told the world he and the american people with him as their leader cant be counted on by NATO and the USA was the guarantee that aggression against ant NATO member would not work out well for the aggressor because no matter what happened in the end Uncle Sam would get them.
In one smug statement that is gone.
That is why we need to star understanding how vulnerable we are and unfortunately the only way I know to reduce that vulnerability is to build more and bigger nukes and our own delivery systems. That takes time we have not got so we need a fast stopgap and the only ones I know of that could in any way work are are the other 2 sides of the WMD triangle.
Which do we fancy, weaponized germs or some not so nice chemicals?
Me, I vote the chems (at least they dont reproduce!)
Welcome to Trumps brave new world, "it will be lovely folks, I'm tellin ya! It will be lovely.."
MY ARSE!"A good view, but let's remember neither Putin or Trump need or want western battle front. It's just posturing the 79's was full of crap like this, whilst Corbyns heroes Foot and the like talked crap | |||
"We only know what we are told about Putin by the press, but IF all of it is true then he is a bit of a liability, BUT which side has invaded several countries and tried to impose their ideals upon them? While their leaders were not to our satisfaction are the people of Iraq, libya syria etc better off after the US interfered in their affairs along with Blair who dragged us into it,(perhaps we wouldnt have IS if bush had kept his nose out), if Russia had done that the west would have been up in arms, yes putin is bombing the shit out of people in syria but they wouldsay they are fighting terrorists. The US have done far more war mongering than Russia has, to date anyway " | |||
, box office hit if I've ever seen one. | |||
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"Putin is rebuilding the old USSR and has been rearming and upgrading his weapons systems for years. During the same period we (the West) have been cutting back on military strength in personnel, materials, training, research and development, while at the same time selling off the organisations that held the talent to foreign powers (mainly the USA). Now Trump is threatening to withdraw support for NATO and return to the isolationism of the 30's, but on steroids. Combine the 2 above and add in the possibility that Trump owes Vlad for Russian help to win the whitehouse through leaking hacked democrat computer files. We are left with Europe and the UK in a very vulnerable position. Add to the fact that Brexit further destabilises the unity of Europe and the fact that with our present output capacity and skilled labour pool we are looking at a timescale of decades rather than years to return our armed forces to their pre-Soviet collapse levels I would say the outlook is bleak and if Putin decides to move we will have no choice but to move quickly to nuclear options or sue for terms and hope that a man with a reputation similar to Stalin or the Tzars will show mercy. My prognosis: We are well and truly up shit creak! My only positive bits of news: I am now too old and unwell to be recalled to service in any sort of active duty roll and if it does kick off I live less than 3 miles from ground zero of one of the most obvious multi-megaton warhead targets so the most I will observe is a flash and it will be over for me. . . . . Is that simple enough OP? Utter BS. the US spent 10 times the amount Russia did on military last year with 540 billion compared to Russia' 50 billion. Stop fear mongering. Russia doesn't want conflict and they only increased their spending on arms because for the last decade the west as been invading countries left and right and placing missile systems around Russia's borders. Today is a good day in that russia and america will start rebuilding relations and for now any ww3 is averted." | |||
"Putin is rebuilding the old USSR and has been rearming and upgrading his weapons systems for years. During the same period we (the West) have been cutting back on military strength in personnel, materials, training, research and development, while at the same time selling off the organisations that held the talent to foreign powers (mainly the USA). Now Trump is threatening to withdraw support for NATO and return to the isolationism of the 30's, but on steroids. Combine the 2 above and add in the possibility that Trump owes Vlad for Russian help to win the whitehouse through leaking hacked democrat computer files. We are left with Europe and the UK in a very vulnerable position. Add to the fact that Brexit further destabilises the unity of Europe and the fact that with our present output capacity and skilled labour pool we are looking at a timescale of decades rather than years to return our armed forces to their pre-Soviet collapse levels I would say the outlook is bleak and if Putin decides to move we will have no choice but to move quickly to nuclear options or sue for terms and hope that a man with a reputation similar to Stalin or the Tzars will show mercy. My prognosis: We are well and truly up shit creak! My only positive bits of news: I am now too old and unwell to be recalled to service in any sort of active duty roll and if it does kick off I live less than 3 miles from ground zero of one of the most obvious multi-megaton warhead targets so the most I will observe is a flash and it will be over for me. . . . . Is that simple enough OP? Utter BS. the US spent 10 times the amount Russia did on military last year with 540 billion compared to Russia' 50 billion. Stop fear mongering. Russia doesn't want conflict and they only increased their spending on arms because for the last decade the west as been invading countries left and right and placing missile systems around Russia's borders. Today is a good day in that russia and america will start rebuilding relations and for now any ww3 is averted. ""World" war 3 may (or may not) have been averted, but that doesn't make Europe any safer. Putin will do his utmost to negotiate America away from NATO and the defence of Europe and he sees a Trump presidency as a strong first step. Once he achieves it, or even gets close enough to calculate that the US will step back in the event of a strike, then strike he will. Probably the Baltic states will be the first on his hit list but I wouldn't rule out him having another go at Ukraine either. Like him or not, Trump did get one thing absolutely right in his campaign. That it is time the rest of NATO/Europe started picking up the tab for its defence and not just relying on the Americans to keep filling the void. | |||
"Putin is rebuilding the old USSR and has been rearming and upgrading his weapons systems for years. During the same period we (the West) have been cutting back on military strength in personnel, materials, training, research and development, while at the same time selling off the organisations that held the talent to foreign powers (mainly the USA). Now Trump is threatening to withdraw support for NATO and return to the isolationism of the 30's, but on steroids. Combine the 2 above and add in the possibility that Trump owes Vlad for Russian help to win the whitehouse through leaking hacked democrat computer files. We are left with Europe and the UK in a very vulnerable position. Add to the fact that Brexit further destabilises the unity of Europe and the fact that with our present output capacity and skilled labour pool we are looking at a timescale of decades rather than years to return our armed forces to their pre-Soviet collapse levels I would say the outlook is bleak and if Putin decides to move we will have no choice but to move quickly to nuclear options or sue for terms and hope that a man with a reputation similar to Stalin or the Tzars will show mercy. My prognosis: We are well and truly up shit creak! My only positive bits of news: I am now too old and unwell to be recalled to service in any sort of active duty roll and if it does kick off I live less than 3 miles from ground zero of one of the most obvious multi-megaton warhead targets so the most I will observe is a flash and it will be over for me. . . . . Is that simple enough OP? Utter BS. the US spent 10 times the amount Russia did on military last year with 540 billion compared to Russia' 50 billion. Stop fear mongering. Russia doesn't want conflict and they only increased their spending on arms because for the last decade the west as been invading countries left and right and placing missile systems around Russia's borders. Today is a good day in that russia and america will start rebuilding relations and for now any ww3 is averted.
"World" war 3 may (or may not) have been averted, but that doesn't make Europe any safer.
Putin will do his utmost to negotiate America away from NATO and the defence of Europe and he sees a Trump presidency as a strong first step. Once he achieves it, or even gets close enough to calculate that the US will step back in the event of a strike, then strike he will.
Probably the Baltic states will be the first on his hit list but I wouldn't rule out him having another go at Ukraine either.
Like him or not, Trump did get one thing absolutely right in his campaign. That it is time the rest of NATO/Europe started picking up the tab for its defence and not just relying on the Americans to keep filling the void.
"people need to stop seeing putin and russia as the bad guys. He speaks more sense than any western politicians and isnt seeking war....everything russia has done the past decade is a reaction to our (the west) actions. If it wasnt for putin (and china) the west eould already have had regime change in both iran and syria if it wasnt for russia using their veto to stop intervention agsin iran. and if he wasnt in syria helping assad (by invitation by an elected goverment) fight isis you can bet the US would have armed the rebels even more and assisted them in regime change. putin has done more for peace than any western goverment the past decade. | |||
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"By all means watch your sky news, bbc news, cnn, nbc etc etc but by doing so you are only going to get their narrative they want you to believe. To get a more rounded view you need to go watch alternative news outlets that give the other side of the story to get a better idea. sure your opinion may not chsnge at all but at least you are aware and not just being led by the narrative the main stream media try to put out." hi Scouse!
Not had a night out in town for years now, are Ma Baileys and Flaigans still going?
I don't know about others but when I listen/watch/read the news I pick multiple sources because all of them slant the news to fit an agenda. I am very careful not to end up believing my own sides propaganda, because as you say that is very dangerous.
"people need to stop seeing putin and russia as the bad guys. He speaks more sense than any western politicians and isnt seeking war....everything russia has done the past decade is a reaction to our (the west) actions. If it wasnt for putin (and china) the west eould already have had regime change in both iran and syria if it wasnt for russia using their veto to stop intervention agsin iran. and if he wasnt in syria helping assad (by invitation by an elected goverment) fight isis you can bet the US would have armed the rebels even more and assisted them in regime change. putin has done more for peace than any western goverment the past decade." Here is where we start to seriously disagree. Putin IS a bad guy, while he is in charge of Russia, Russia is also a bad guy! I know you don't want to hear it, but that does not take from its basic truth. Remember fail to prepare, prepare to fail. We ignore or make excuses for what he does at our own cost and risk. As has been said already Russia's' aggression and rearming is being done from a position of economic weakness, but do not lose sight of the fact that weakened animals that feel threatened will attack without provocation, Countries act very much like animals. Now there is another side of the equation and to be honest the vast majority of people get it wrong because they do believe the propaganda pumped at them 24 hours a day. Here is the really BIG lie we are all fed: The USA is good. It is NOT! It is bad too, and it is even more acquisitive than Russia! But and this is the really BIG but, the USA's potential is bottled up because it is in reality isolated. There is a reason it has the largest blue water navy in the world, it is because that is the only way it can project power across the globe without the active cooperation of other nations. However having said that it does not consider others as partners and allies no matter what it calls them. They are its 'clients'. In fact in the USA its own people are 'clients'. The USA functions for the benefit of its corporations and no one else. From once you understand, believe, accept and get your head around that one basic truth much of what happens in the world makes sense. Why the USA is hell bent on destroying the Euro, why they also want to stop further development of the EU (both threaten the dominance of the USA and Corporate US [for ease I will just call it CUS from now on] in particular). What drives US actions in the world. Why they are climate change deniers. Why despite their wealth they refuse to have a system of universal healthcare free at the point of delivery run by government funded by taxes. Why they feed unsustainable population growth. It's all about the bottom line on the annual report to shareholders and the year on year growth in profits. Take some time to get your head round that. And then take a deep breath and get ready to be really kicked in the crotch! Up till now US politicians have walked the tightrope of delivering what their CUS CEO's demanded without destroying the very things that have allowed CUS to flourish. They have been quite successful at that, it was always unsustainable, but at least they stopped the worst excesses of CUS. They were not able to stop CUS from liquidating its CUS assists in the states to feed the bottom line (cause of US manufacturing jobs being exported to cheap, unregulated labour markets). They were unable to stop CUS from exporting the repercussions of that fire-sale to the rest of the world in the naughties. That caused the global banking crash of 2008 by the way. Now they have failed to stop CUS taking complete control. Here is a wake up call, Trump is a CUS CEO. He is the worst type of CUS CEO there is. He started life as a millionaire and turned himself into a billionaire by deliberately asset stripping and bankrupting multiple corporations (by the way that is exactly what the shit philip green did to BHS). Trump has 'many plans', 'great plans', 'it's going to be lovely, folks, lovely' *smug smirk*. MY ARSE! He is about to do the same to us! The plan is for CUS to liquidate Europe! It will be great! Not for us tho! And Putin knows this and want his share! And how will the pot be divided? CUS will tak the family silver (thats all the wealth) and Putin can have the real estate. Why? Well that is simple, CUS (and their family loved ones, and valued servants) is back home in Dixie, NY or any number of 'gated gated mansions and communities, so has no need for real estate, its just a drain that needs protecting from trespassers, so sell it off cheap. And of course there is a buyer waiting in the wings, not a good landlord, but thats not a CUS problem, and he will even deal with any of the tenants that gets uppity! Have you guessed his name yet? Yep! It's that man again, VP! And all he has to do is cross a few rivers after all he lives right next door so its just a case of knocking through and pulling down a few garden fences... The question is not is it coming? But... How bad is it going to be? And how much does VP want? Because what VP wants VP gets! And CUS has a fart in the Oval Office come midday 20 Jan 2017 who is planning a fire-sale to'make america great again'. USA USA USA 'Its going to be great folks'  | |||
"By all means watch your sky news, bbc news, cnn, nbc etc etc but by doing so you are only going to get their narrative they want you to believe. To get a more rounded view you need to go watch alternative news outlets that give the other side of the story to get a better idea. sure your opinion may not chsnge at all but at least you are aware and not just being led by the narrative the main stream media try to put out. hi Scouse!
Not had a night out in town for years now, are Ma Baileys and Flaigans still going?
I don't know about others but when I listen/watch/read the news I pick multiple sources because all of them slant the news to fit an agenda. I am very careful not to end up believing my own sides propaganda, because as you say that is very dangerous.
people need to stop seeing putin and russia as the bad guys.
He speaks more sense than any western politicians and isnt seeking war....everything russia has done the past decade is a reaction to our (the west) actions.
If it wasnt for putin (and china) the west eould already have had regime change in both iran and syria if it wasnt for russia using their veto to stop intervention agsin iran.
and if he wasnt in syria helping assad (by invitation by an elected goverment) fight isis you can bet the US would have armed the rebels even more and assisted them in regime change.
putin has done more for peace than any western goverment the past decade.
Here is where we start to seriously disagree.
Putin IS a bad guy, while he is in charge of Russia, Russia is also a bad guy! I know you don't want to hear it, but that does not take from its basic truth. Remember fail to prepare, prepare to fail. We ignore or make excuses for what he does at our own cost and risk. As has been said already Russia's' aggression and rearming is being done from a position of economic weakness, but do not lose sight of the fact that weakened animals that feel threatened will attack without provocation, Countries act very much like animals.
Now there is another side of the equation and to be honest the vast majority of people get it wrong because they do believe the propaganda pumped at them 24 hours a day. Here is the really BIG lie we are all fed:
The USA is good. It is NOT! It is bad too, and it is even more acquisitive than Russia! But and this is the really BIG but, the USA's potential is bottled up because it is in reality isolated. There is a reason it has the largest blue water navy in the world, it is because that is the only way it can project power across the globe without the active cooperation of other nations.
However having said that it does not consider others as partners and allies no matter what it calls them. They are its 'clients'. In fact in the USA its own people are 'clients'. The USA functions for the benefit of its corporations and no one else. From once you understand, believe, accept and get your head around that one basic truth much of what happens in the world makes sense. Why the USA is hell bent on destroying the Euro, why they also want to stop further development of the EU (both threaten the dominance of the USA and Corporate US [for ease I will just call it CUS from now on] in particular). What drives US actions in the world. Why they are climate change deniers. Why despite their wealth they refuse to have a system of universal healthcare free at the point of delivery run by government funded by taxes. Why they feed unsustainable population growth. It's all about the bottom line on the annual report to shareholders and the year on year growth in profits.
Take some time to get your head round that. And then take a deep breath and get ready to be really kicked in the crotch!
Up till now US politicians have walked the tightrope of delivering what their CUS CEO's demanded without destroying the very things that have allowed CUS to flourish. They have been quite successful at that, it was always unsustainable, but at least they stopped the worst excesses of CUS. They were not able to stop CUS from liquidating its CUS assists in the states to feed the bottom line (cause of US manufacturing jobs being exported to cheap, unregulated labour markets). They were unable to stop CUS from exporting the repercussions of that fire-sale to the rest of the world in the naughties. That caused the global banking crash of 2008 by the way.
Now they have failed to stop CUS taking complete control. Here is a wake up call, Trump is a CUS CEO. He is the worst type of CUS CEO there is. He started life as a millionaire and turned himself into a billionaire by deliberately asset stripping and bankrupting multiple corporations (by the way that is exactly what the shit philip green did to BHS).
Trump has 'many plans', 'great plans', 'it's going to be lovely, folks, lovely' *smug smirk*. MY ARSE!
He is about to do the same to us! The plan is for CUS to liquidate Europe! It will be great! Not for us tho! And Putin knows this and want his share!
And how will the pot be divided? CUS will tak the family silver (thats all the wealth) and Putin can have the real estate. Why? Well that is simple, CUS (and their family loved ones, and valued servants) is back home in Dixie, NY or any number of 'gated gated mansions and communities, so has no need for real estate, its just a drain that needs protecting from trespassers, so sell it off cheap. And of course there is a buyer waiting in the wings, not a good landlord, but thats not a CUS problem, and he will even deal with any of the tenants that gets uppity! Have you guessed his name yet?
Yep! It's that man again, VP! And all he has to do is cross a few rivers after all he lives right next door so its just a case of knocking through and pulling down a few garden fences...
The question is not is it coming?
But...
How bad is it going to be? And how much does VP want? Because what VP wants VP gets! And CUS has a fart in the Oval Office come midday 20 Jan 2017 who is planning a fire-sale to'make america great again'.
USA USA USA 'Its going to be great folks' "Quite an extreme viewpoint and I'd like to pick some holes in it but I think they would only be pin pricks. One thing is certain though. Western Europe has to seriously start spending on defence. Why do I hear echoes of the 1930's? | |||
"Quite an extreme viewpoint and I'd like to pick some holes in it but I think they would only be pin pricks. One thing is certain though. Western Europe has to seriously start spending on defence. Why do I hear echoes of the 1930's?" If my point of view is extreme (not denying it), it is born from not deluding myself to the reality of the world I live in and how many layers of deceit and misdirection there are protecting the blindingly obvious for those who remove the blinkers and rose tinted shades and critically examine the world. I will further admit that I have painted the most stark of pictures and it is not so much a timetable of events more a view of the world in 20 or 30 years time. CUS is clever! CUS is devious! CUS has installed a Cesar! What will happen will be gradual, it will be measured and it will be well rehearsed. Because what we will see will be an illusion and by the time we wake up to the truth, just like the Jews in 40/41/42/43/44 we will be filing into the ghettos, cattle truck, concentration camps and death chambers (metaphorically speaking). I do think that there will be some rather fast exchange of land, as you say, maybe the Balkan States after all Serbia did most of the hard graft when it dismembered the former Yugoslavia and there are old KGB Soviet scores to be settled there. Also the Baltic states look particularly vulnerable. But if I had to bet where Vlad will go first I would look more towards the Stans, Georgia and Armenia. I think our children will be paying for our hubris in 30 years time, just as we are paying for now for giving power to Thatcher and Reagan. | |||
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