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seen it all 2
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
The 'keeping your cards secret' argument is bollocks.
This is running a country, not poker or a used car sale.
quote;
If you or anyone else really believes that then the country really is up the creek.
Just answer this ,has the EU produced their bottom line demands and concessions ?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 'keeping your cards secret' argument is bollocks.
This is running a country, not poker or a used car sale.
quote;
If you or anyone else really believes that then the country really is up the creek.
Just answer this ,has the EU produced their bottom line demands and concessions ?
"
Negotiations haven't started yet.
We have been in shit creek ever since this charade began. The question is how we navigate ourselves out of it. |
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I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election. |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"The 'keeping your cards secret' argument is bollocks.
This is running a country, not poker or a used car sale.
quote;
If you or anyone else really believes that then the country really is up the creek.
Just answer this ,has the EU produced their bottom line demands and concessions ?
Negotiations haven't started yet.
We have been in shit creek ever since this charade began. The question is how we navigate ourselves out of it."
Precisely so why would we disclose our position? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Remainers should have left well alone, May was no doubt secretly looking for a way to screw us over and stay in the EU.
She can't do that now, nobody knows what is going to happen.
It is a mess. |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election."
Why ? |
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"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election.
Why ?"
this is Article 50 of the Treaty of Europe:
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
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Read subsection 4 of above and then reread sections 2 and 3.
It does not take a great intellect to understand that what is said is from once article 50 is triggered the withdrawing country gets no say in what the EU offer and that country is out 2 years after triggering article 50 unless ALL the remaining members agree to extend the exit period. |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election.
Why ?
this is Article 50 of the Treaty of Europe:
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
"
Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Ah how good it looks sat on a nice comfy sofa on a nice little island.
Come give your offerings to the mighty empire you poor little Europeans, come...
HELLO! Over here. Here - HELLO, we're really important you know, like everyone uses our language and stuff. |
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"Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us "
Firstly, I do not think everyone knows what article 50 says or it's implications.
Secondly, I did not say we would be offered a bad deal, I said we have no say in the deal we are offered therefore there can be no negotiating position and any attempt to say there will be is a LIE.
Thirdly I said that if we refuse to accept what is offered then it will be much more painful for us.
Further if you wish to search back through the pre referendum threads you will find that I said that the deal we will be offered is one where we keep all EU regulations and pay approximately the same amount into the EU and in return we keep full access to the single market. Therefore we lose all our optouts, our seat at the EU negotiating table, our ability to help shape EU policy and our share of the EU budget in order to give the Tories an extra term in power.
But hey, I was told I could not know that, I did not have a crystal ball and couldn't tell the future. As I am sure some will repeat now, of course those who are telling me I am wrong are the same people who say that the French, Germans and EU in general don't mean what they say either although the evidence is that they do, unlike our politicians. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths |
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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago
lytham st.annes |
"Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us
Firstly, I do not think everyone knows what article 50 says or it's implications.
Secondly, I did not say we would be offered a bad deal, I said we have no say in the deal we are offered therefore there can be no negotiating position and any attempt to say there will be is a LIE.
Thirdly I said that if we refuse to accept what is offered then it will be much more painful for us.
Further if you wish to search back through the pre referendum threads you will find that I said that the deal we will be offered is one where we keep all EU regulations and pay approximately the same amount into the EU and in return we keep full access to the single market. Therefore we lose all our optouts, our seat at the EU negotiating table, our ability to help shape EU policy and our share of the EU budget in order to give the Tories an extra term in power.
But hey, I was told I could not know that, I did not have a crystal ball and couldn't tell the future. As I am sure some will repeat now, of course those who are telling me I am wrong are the same people who say that the French, Germans and EU in general don't mean what they say either although the evidence is that they do, unlike our politicians."
. Who,s a smart arse then and from moston,well done.Can you not do the deed for us lol  |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths"
The maths like 435m vs 65m? 
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK? |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK? "
so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election."
The EU will have no say over how we negotiate trade deals etc with the close to 200 other countries in the world. Currently they do.
They may put 10% tariffs on cars. Given the direction of flow this would cost the EU about £7bn a year.....revenue for the UK government!!
Trade in just about every other goods and commodity is also skewed the same way (with a few exceptions). That puts a different slant on who wears the trousers! |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK?
so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU? "
You know that subject of tariffs isn't even going to be discussed during the article 50 negotiations, right?
First we leave the EU, then we start negotiations on a trade deal. So even if they do agree to tariff free trade (which I don't think they will) that will be several years down the line, and in the meantime we will be operating under WTO rules which mean no sweetheart deals, we have to either impose tariffs on the EU (and them on us) or scrap all tariffs from all countries around the world, and the EU would have to do the same. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Read subsection 4 of above and then reread sections 2 and 3.
It does not take a great intellect to understand that what is said is from once article 50 is triggered the withdrawing country gets no say in what the EU offer and that country is out 2 years after triggering article 50 unless ALL the remaining members agree to extend the exit period."
2 years is only a guideline, it can be much sooner or indeed much later |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK? "
what does that have to do with anything?
India 1.3billion vs UK 65m? Who has the bigger economy?
No, maths like the UK defecit with the EU of around £70 billion. Do you really think they will damage that? Maths like the average tariff into the EU is less than 2% anyway which they wouldn't be allowed to change and wouldn't really have much impact if it was applied, especially when compared to currency fluctuations.
Maths like we have a trade surplus with the rest of the world which despite EU restrictions is growing far faster than internal EU trade. Maths like when the UK joined the EU it made up 37% of global gdp, today its 17%. To some extent that is because emerging economies have grown so rapidly but that is likely to continue for decades to come, meanwhile the EU sclerotic pace of growth looks set to fester on. Who should we concentrate more on now? Why are remainers so narrow minded and inward looking?
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK?
so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU?
You know that subject of tariffs isn't even going to be discussed during the article 50 negotiations, right?
First we leave the EU, then we start negotiations on a trade deal. So even if they do agree to tariff free trade (which I don't think they will) that will be several years down the line, and in the meantime we will be operating under WTO rules which mean no sweetheart deals, we have to either impose tariffs on the EU (and them on us) or scrap all tariffs from all countries around the world, and the EU would have to do the same."
Of course the subject of trade will be discussed, if we have tariff free access to the single market which I think we all agree is best for everyone then we will need to concede to some sort of access,now that could be work visa's, limited numbers visa free, etc etc . The problem the EU have is they must try and make it hard for us otherwise others will question the benefit of being a member but of course if they play hardball its just as likely that they will finacially suffer more,but of course the high and mighty in the EU dont care about that because it isnt them that will pay for those tariffs. The trouble with their stance is that it will prove the leavers right,after all this wonderful trade block isnt doing that well is it ? |
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"so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU? "
Sorry to say this but you really don't get it at all!
Firstly 40% of our exports go to the EU, the majority of that being financial services, the rest being vehicles and manufactured products. The EU exports approximately 10% of its exports to the UK, the majority of that being FOOD!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK?
so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU?
You know that subject of tariffs isn't even going to be discussed during the article 50 negotiations, right?
First we leave the EU, then we start negotiations on a trade deal. So even if they do agree to tariff free trade (which I don't think they will) that will be several years down the line, and in the meantime we will be operating under WTO rules which mean no sweetheart deals, we have to either impose tariffs on the EU (and them on us) or scrap all tariffs from all countries around the world, and the EU would have to do the same.
Of course the subject of trade will be discussed, if we have tariff free access to the single market which I think we all agree is best for everyone then we will need to concede to some sort of access,now that could be work visa's, limited numbers visa free, etc etc . The problem the EU have is they must try and make it hard for us otherwise others will question the benefit of being a member but of course if they play hardball its just as likely that they will finacially suffer more,but of course the high and mighty in the EU dont care about that because it isnt them that will pay for those tariffs. The trouble with their stance is that it will prove the leavers right,after all this wonderful trade block isnt doing that well is it ?"
EU Trade Commissioner: No trade talks until full Brexit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222
Its clear, first we leave the EU, and only then can we discuss a new trade deal. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" the Union shall NEGOTIATE and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.
"
.
I think I see the word negotiate there |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? "
.
That's what happens when you build on your farming fields for extra houses because.... WE'RE NOT FULL THERE'S GREEN STUFF EVERYWHERE |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election.
Why ?
this is Article 50 of the Treaty of Europe:
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us "
Why do they need our trade? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths"
Could you please explain why we hold any cards the EU would want? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU?
Sorry to say this but you really don't get it at all!
Firstly 40% of our exports go to the EU, the majority of that being financial services, the rest being vehicles and manufactured products. The EU exports approximately 10% of its exports to the UK, the majority of that being FOOD!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? "
actually 25% comes from the EU but don't let that get in the way of a good arguement. So what tariffs would they place on services do you think? Or what could they be at most? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
Could you please explain why we hold any cards the EU would want?"
I have |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election.
Why ?
this is Article 50 of the Treaty of Europe:
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us
Why do they need our trade?"
duh  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? .
That's what happens when you build on your farming fields for extra houses because.... WE'RE NOT FULL THERE'S GREEN STUFF EVERYWHERE "
In WWII we managed, with a smaller population and severe rationing, to be about 75% self sufficient in food as I understand it (I am happy for someone to cite accurate figures for this) today we could manage about 50%.
Yes, we have more intensive farming techniques, but guess where the resources for that come from? Not the UK.
Now what about all the other things we all like. Clothes? We tend to like those and indeed need them to live. Guess where almost all the materials for clothes come from? Not the UK.
Cars, raw materials?
Just about everything else? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election.
Why ?
this is Article 50 of the Treaty of Europe:
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us
Why do they need our trade?
duh "
Good argument there mate!
I ask you again, what do we offer that the EU can't live without? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I know I've said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again...
There is no negotiating position, there will be no negotiating position, we will be given a take it or leave it choice by the EU and i we leave it it will be a lot more painful for us than accepting whatever the EU offer.
The only thing we get to chose is when we trigger article 50. The government know this, they knew it before the referendum and they knew it would not change. Because of this the government is looking for a way out. Not of exiting the EU but of not being held responsible for the results of the hubris and dishonesty they used to win an election.
Why ?
this is Article 50 of the Treaty of Europe:
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us
Why do they need our trade?
duh
Good argument there mate!
I ask you again, what do we offer that the EU can't live without?"
£290 billion worth of custom |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? .
That's what happens when you build on your farming fields for extra houses because.... WE'RE NOT FULL THERE'S GREEN STUFF EVERYWHERE
In WWII we managed, with a smaller population and severe rationing, to be about 75% self sufficient in food as I understand it (I am happy for someone to cite accurate figures for this) today we could manage about 50%."
.
I think we could all do with eating 50% less then we currently do.....  |
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"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK?
what does that have to do with anything?
India 1.3billion vs UK 65m? Who has the bigger economy?
No, maths like the UK defecit with the EU of around £70 billion. Do you really think they will damage that? Maths like the average tariff into the EU is less than 2% anyway which they wouldn't be allowed to change and wouldn't really have much impact if it was applied, especially when compared to currency fluctuations.
Maths like we have a trade surplus with the rest of the world which despite EU restrictions is growing far faster than internal EU trade. Maths like when the UK joined the EU it made up 37% of global gdp, today its 17%. To some extent that is because emerging economies have grown so rapidly but that is likely to continue for decades to come, meanwhile the EU sclerotic pace of growth looks set to fester on. Who should we concentrate more on now? Why are remainers so narrow minded and inward looking?
"
THE UK operates a huge trade deficit with the EU and we have a trade surplus with the rest of the world outside of the EU (figures from the house of commons library quoted by MP Bill Cash in Parliament confirm this). The boss of Dutch Sports giant Head wrote in a newspaper article a few weeks ago, and his maths concluded that if the EU does a trade deal with the UK with tariffs the UK is set to make almost double the amount of money from those tariffs than the EU would make from the reciprocal tariffs (tariffs are a 2 way thing on trade deals). The numbers don't lie and the UK will come out in front on a trade deal with tariffs, it seems at least Angela Merkel and the Germans know this and it's why Merkel keeps calling for everyone to be "sensible" about the upcoming negotiations. Of course the EU could continue to trade with us freely which would be beneficial to both sides. Historically globally tariff barriers have been coming down and the UK wants a free trade deal with the EU (Theresa May said as much in parliament) so if tariffs go up it will be down to the EU. |
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"£290 billion worth of custom"
I think we need to agree to disagree.
The die has been cast and we will all know who is right in the fullness of time. No doubt if you are correct you will no doubt remind me how little faith I have in a hard BREXIT, if I am proven right I think you and I will have much more to worry about that scoring point off each other. |
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"!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? .
That's what happens when you build on your farming fields for extra houses because.... WE'RE NOT FULL THERE'S GREEN STUFF EVERYWHERE
In WWII we managed, with a smaller population and severe rationing, to be about 75% self sufficient in food as I understand it (I am happy for someone to cite accurate figures for this) today we could manage about 50%.
Yes, we have more intensive farming techniques, but guess where the resources for that come from? Not the UK.
Now what about all the other things we all like. Clothes? We tend to like those and indeed need them to live. Guess where almost all the materials for clothes come from? Not the UK.
Cars, raw materials?
Just about everything else?"
The EU is not the only area we can shop from. There is a whole wide world out there outside of the borders of the EU we can buy stuff from. With a significant number of countries outside of the EU already lining up to do free trade deals with us it seems sensible to cast our net further afield and start to shop elsewhere for some of our imported goods rather than to be so reliant on the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"£290 billion worth of custom
I think we need to agree to disagree.
The die has been cast and we will all know who is right in the fullness of time. No doubt if you are correct you will no doubt remind me how little faith I have in a hard BREXIT, if I am proven right I think you and I will have much more to worry about that scoring point off each other."
True and I understand your concerns, there just seems to be no logic as to why we would lose out |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"What defeatist nonsense. If the EU are lucky we will offer them a good deal. They can take it or leave it. The UK holds all the cards, why do so many people not understand that? Just do the simple maths
The maths like 435m vs 65m?
Who has the bigger economy, the 27 other members combined, or the UK?
so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU?
You know that subject of tariffs isn't even going to be discussed during the article 50 negotiations, right?
First we leave the EU, then we start negotiations on a trade deal. So even if they do agree to tariff free trade (which I don't think they will) that will be several years down the line, and in the meantime we will be operating under WTO rules which mean no sweetheart deals, we have to either impose tariffs on the EU (and them on us) or scrap all tariffs from all countries around the world, and the EU would have to do the same.
Of course the subject of trade will be discussed, if we have tariff free access to the single market which I think we all agree is best for everyone then we will need to concede to some sort of access,now that could be work visa's, limited numbers visa free, etc etc . The problem the EU have is they must try and make it hard for us otherwise others will question the benefit of being a member but of course if they play hardball its just as likely that they will finacially suffer more,but of course the high and mighty in the EU dont care about that because it isnt them that will pay for those tariffs. The trouble with their stance is that it will prove the leavers right,after all this wonderful trade block isnt doing that well is it ?
EU Trade Commissioner: No trade talks until full Brexit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222
Its clear, first we leave the EU, and only then can we discuss a new trade deal."
But you keep telling us that the EU is just a free trade block with free movement so if they arent discussing trade then what is going to take two years to do talk about ? |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"so if you sell me a £100 pounds of stuff and I sell you £50 then whohas more to lose? I know a higher % of our exports go them than theirs to us but thats as a whole not the individual countries, why would you want to stop your own exports? The UK are happy for tariff free exports so why arent the EU?
Sorry to say this but you really don't get it at all!
Firstly 40% of our exports go to the EU, the majority of that being financial services, the rest being vehicles and manufactured products. The EU exports approximately 10% of its exports to the UK, the majority of that being FOOD!
We in the UK need to import 50% of our food, most of that comes from the EU!
The EU can survive a few months or years without our cars, we start STARVING within a few days without their FOOD!
Is that plain enough for you to get your head round? "
So if they dont sell it to us where else is it going to be sold to? And tariffs on food products are amongst the highest for any products so yes food prices could rise but eu food manufacturers will be squealing loudest to get free trade.
I just hope that we employ more optimistic people to sort the deal than the negative attitude the moaners on here have
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"£290 billion worth of custom
I think we need to agree to disagree.
The die has been cast and we will all know who is right in the fullness of time. No doubt if you are correct you will no doubt remind me how little faith I have in a hard BREXIT, if I am proven right I think you and I will have much more to worry about that scoring point off each other.
True and I understand your concerns, there just seems to be no logic as to why we would lose out"
It's the logic of what do we have that other people want to buy off us?
In a free trade level playing field then I can see they would, our stuff is good. But, what if it is not free trade, is our stuff so good it's worth paying more for in the form of tariffs? And is our stuff so good that it's worth going down the hassle of agreeing a free trade deal? Don't forget, most of what we make needs raw materials from abroad so we'd have tariffs on our imports that we need to make the goods and tariffs on our exports. Double whammy.
Now, you appear to say that it is. I have asked you what we do that is and you've made glib replies like "duh".
I agree, we make good stuff. But, I suggest, very little of it that is so much better than people can get elsewhere that makes it worth while.
Hopefully on this I am wrong. My worry is that I am not.
For sure, time will tell. |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"£290 billion worth of custom
I think we need to agree to disagree.
The die has been cast and we will all know who is right in the fullness of time. No doubt if you are correct you will no doubt remind me how little faith I have in a hard BREXIT, if I am proven right I think you and I will have much more to worry about that scoring point off each other.
True and I understand your concerns, there just seems to be no logic as to why we would lose out
It's the logic of what do we have that other people want to buy off us?
In a free trade level playing field then I can see they would, our stuff is good. But, what if it is not free trade, is our stuff so good it's worth paying more for in the form of tariffs? And is our stuff so good that it's worth going down the hassle of agreeing a free trade deal? Don't forget, most of what we make needs raw materials from abroad so we'd have tariffs on our imports that we need to make the goods and tariffs on our exports. Double whammy.
Now, you appear to say that it is. I have asked you what we do that is and you've made glib replies like "duh".
I agree, we make good stuff. But, I suggest, very little of it that is so much better than people can get elsewhere that makes it worth while.
Hopefully on this I am wrong. My worry is that I am not.
For sure, time will tell."
Nissan have decided they will still be able to sell stuff ok |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"£290 billion worth of custom
I think we need to agree to disagree.
The die has been cast and we will all know who is right in the fullness of time. No doubt if you are correct you will no doubt remind me how little faith I have in a hard BREXIT, if I am proven right I think you and I will have much more to worry about that scoring point off each other.
True and I understand your concerns, there just seems to be no logic as to why we would lose out
It's the logic of what do we have that other people want to buy off us?
In a free trade level playing field then I can see they would, our stuff is good. But, what if it is not free trade, is our stuff so good it's worth paying more for in the form of tariffs? And is our stuff so good that it's worth going down the hassle of agreeing a free trade deal? Don't forget, most of what we make needs raw materials from abroad so we'd have tariffs on our imports that we need to make the goods and tariffs on our exports. Double whammy.
Now, you appear to say that it is. I have asked you what we do that is and you've made glib replies like "duh".
I agree, we make good stuff. But, I suggest, very little of it that is so much better than people can get elsewhere that makes it worth while.
Hopefully on this I am wrong. My worry is that I am not.
For sure, time will tell.
Nissan have decided they will still be able to sell stuff ok"
Well, that's an interesting one. Reports have it they were offered something, possibly a promise of free trade. It seems pretty certain that there was a letter from the government but we don't know what was in it.
What we do know is that Nissan at Washington has to compete against other factories in the group to win new models. This competiton (and bear in mind that parts in the automotive industry are priced to £0.0001) will certainly consider tariffs if they come into play in due course.
We don't know what, if anything, Nissan were offered but I suggest that if tariffs are applied to their exports in due course then they won't win many more models. And if tariffs are applied to their incoming raw materials then their prices will be uneconomic. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Yes I think we all know that,but why does that mean we get a bad deal,they need our trade just as much as we need to trade with them and dont forget the 200 odd million NET/WK we pay into the coffers,of course some euro politicians may want to kick us hard to stop others leaving but ask yourself if the EU is so good and great why do they need todo that ? Tariffs will hurt them as much and probably more than us
Firstly, I do not think everyone knows what article 50 says or it's implications.
Secondly, I did not say we would be offered a bad deal, I said we have no say in the deal we are offered therefore there can be no negotiating position and any attempt to say there will be is a LIE.
Thirdly I said that if we refuse to accept what is offered then it will be much more painful for us.
Further if you wish to search back through the pre referendum threads you will find that I said that the deal we will be offered is one where we keep all EU regulations and pay approximately the same amount into the EU and in return we keep full access to the single market. Therefore we lose all our optouts, our seat at the EU negotiating table, our ability to help shape EU policy and our share of the EU budget in order to give the Tories an extra term in power.
But hey, I was told I could not know that, I did not have a crystal ball and couldn't tell the future. As I am sure some will repeat now, of course those who are telling me I am wrong are the same people who say that the French, Germans and EU in general don't mean what they say either although the evidence is that they do, unlike our politicians."
We do have a say... negotiations are carried out, there is an agreement made, and then that agreement is put in writing...
This kind of negotiation happens every day in business... |
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^^^^^
I love this place, but despair at the ignorance of some here. I even went to the trouble of finding Article 50 of The Treaty of Europe and posting it here with a footnote letting everyone know how they needed to read and interpret the Article (as it is spelled out in Clause 4 of the Article) and still people say "'No!' that's not what it says." The leaders of the EU keep saying 'if you want free access to the single market' you have to accept 'all single rules (including free movement of all EU citizens)' and there will be no negociations before Article 50 is triggered. But apparently they don't get to make the decisions, we do. Is it no wonder that every time Jean-Claude Juncker is asked about brexit and he rolls his eyes, shrugs and makes a dismissive grunt, or that all the EU leaders are telling us to get our house in order and trigger Article 50 because their patience is running out. |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"^^^^^
I love this place, but despair at the ignorance of some here. I even went to the trouble of finding Article 50 of The Treaty of Europe and posting it here with a footnote letting everyone know how they needed to read and interpret the Article (as it is spelled out in Clause 4 of the Article) and still people say "'No!' that's not what it says." The leaders of the EU keep saying 'if you want free access to the single market' you have to accept 'all single rules (including free movement of all EU citizens)' and there will be no negociations before Article 50 is triggered. But apparently they don't get to make the decisions, we do. Is it no wonder that every time Jean-Claude Juncker is asked about brexit and he rolls his eyes, shrugs and makes a dismissive grunt, or that all the EU leaders are telling us to get our house in order and trigger Article 50 because their patience is running out."
Not sure any one has said there will be discussions BEFORE art 50 .
So when an employer says I can only afford 1% and union says we will only accept 10 % how do they settle it? Ah of course by having talks and meeting somewhere in the middle.
This is what will happen after art 50 is triggered both sides are playing hardball at the moment (in public anyway) will we get free access and no movement ? I doubt that myself,will we get free access in exchange for limits,visas,time limits etc probably.
What does the EU have to gain by being pigheaded ? If its to make the UK suffer(not that I believe we will )is that an organisation that you really believe is acting for all its citizens or one that is empire building |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles? "
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question."
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ? |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question."
so one of these groups of experts predicts twice as much loss as the other group of experts, was either the expert that you told us forecast the banking crash,oh of course you never did answer that one did you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ? "
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey"
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles? |
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"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
so one of these groups of experts predicts twice as much loss as the other group of experts, was either the expert that you told us forecast the banking crash,oh of course you never did answer that one did you. "
We still haven't left. In fact we have not even triggered article 50. But you may like to take a look at where the £ stands next to the $ or € and ask yourself if that is the result of a vote to leave the EU, what will happen to the £ when it actually happens?
As for there being 2 figures for how much the economy will dive, maybe that is because the 2 organisations don't want to start a panic by telling us what they really think and both came to a different number when deciding what would seem reasonable to the majority of those who control world markets.
Just a thought... |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles? "
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question. "
Correct! |
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"This all needs to Stop !
We had a referendum , we voted out , end of !
Get on with it !"
The court ruling will not stop Brexit, it may delay it slightly but it will not stop it now. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle now and it will not go back in again. The people voted to leave the EU in a referendum, article 50 will be triggered one way or the other and Britain will leave the EU. |
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What if the 28 cases of Tory electoral fraud being investigated by the police result in those election results being null and void and having to be rerun without a Tory candidate?
Would that mean Cameron did not have the authority to hold a referendum so the result of that is, erm, well I suppose it was only advisory anyway.
Best leave it to a second referendum I think, or Parliament. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What if the 28 cases of Tory electoral fraud being investigated by the police result in those election results being null and void and having to be rerun without a Tory candidate?
Would that mean Cameron did not have the authority to hold a referendum so the result of that is, erm, well I suppose it was only advisory anyway.
Best leave it to a second referendum I think, or Parliament. "
I was against a Second Referendum but I'm beggining to think it may be the way forward with a total clarification of the rules ect ! |
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Indeed.
That is because the first one was so poorly thought out and campaigned.
Leave never put forward an actual new structure we would move to.
That was calculated. They wanted to let people think they could all get what they wanted.
The vote was A or NOT A. It should have been A or B where B was either the Swiss, Norwegian, Canadian or WTO models, once chosen by leave, not all of them when all of them was an impossibility. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question. "
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced  |
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"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced "
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here. "
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I? |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here.
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I? "
Of course not but when backed into a corner you never answer a question directed at you so once again which of your beloved experts predict the banking crash?
And as far as I am concerned I think our GDP will be as good if not better outside of the EU over the next five years and willbe better there after.
I voted for a better future for the UK free of a european super state, a european army and an ever increasing interferance. not to stop every immigrant coming here or to kick those here out.
Did you ever think we should have joined the euro ? |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I'm glad we left the conditions and decision on whether to join the euro to experts. "
Just a few who said we should join, the CBI, richard branson, tony blair, danny alexanader,the financial times,the bosses at the time of unilever,BA and BP among others,peter mandellson,ken clarke the IMF,plus various professors fromthe LSE and london business school,many of the above are the experts that good old CLCC loves to praise glad we didnt follow them into the euro |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Under the right conditions.
If that wasn't the case, why didn't we join since you say Blair was in favour of it? "
Because according to the articles brown and ed balls were dead against it and persauded him not too ( thank goodness) or perhaps there was enough mp's in his ranks that would have voted it down,and they were scared that they would have lost the referendum required |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"In other words it wasn't unconditional support for joining the euro, he listened to people more expert than him.
I don't know why you are trying to argue this when we didn't join. "
No he thought he couldnt win so chickened out.The reason I asked (not you directly) was that CLCC keeps quoting experts that say we should stay in the eu but wont answer which experts predicted the banking crash so wondered if he thought at the time we should have joined the euro as his experts wanted us to but in hindsight would have been very bad for our economy |
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"I'm glad we left the conditions and decision on whether to join the euro to experts.
Just a few who said we should join, the CBI, richard branson, tony blair, danny alexanader,the financial times,the bosses at the time of unilever,BA and BP among others,peter mandellson,ken clarke the IMF,plus various professors fromthe LSE and london business school,many of the above are the experts that good old CLCC loves to praise glad we didnt follow them into the euro "
You forgot Nick Clegg in there too. |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Well, Vince Cable was one of the few that predicted the banking crash. He's predicting brexit will be a disaster for the economy. "
He certainly did and I have a lot of respect for him and agree with many points he makes about debt etc. I have spent 20 minutes looking for his response to the vote and while he regrets it and he is looking for a soft brexit I couldnt find anything that he said it would be a disaster,thats not to say he hasnt,one comment I found was that he said the remain side might be in for a shock unless they addressed the fears of the many who felt ignored, its a shame we dont have more mp's like him |
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"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here.
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I?
Of course not but when backed into a corner you never answer a question directed at you so once again which of your beloved experts predict the banking crash?
And as far as I am concerned I think our GDP will be as good if not better outside of the EU over the next five years and willbe better there after.
I voted for a better future for the UK free of a european super state, a european army and an ever increasing interferance. not to stop every immigrant coming here or to kick those here out.
Did you ever think we should have joined the euro ? "
CLCC also failed to answer the question...what will it take for you to admit you were wrong about Brexit? |
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By *obka3 OP Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I'm glad we left the conditions and decision on whether to join the euro to experts.
Just a few who said we should join, the CBI, richard branson, tony blair, danny alexanader,the financial times,the bosses at the time of unilever,BA and BP among others,peter mandellson,ken clarke the IMF,plus various professors fromthe LSE and london business school,many of the above are the experts that good old CLCC loves to praise glad we didnt follow them into the euro
You forgot Nick Clegg in there too. "
And many many others, where is good old CLCC when you want him to respond ? Funny how he goes AWOL when put in a spot |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here.
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I?
Of course not but when backed into a corner you never answer a question directed at you so once again which of your beloved experts predict the banking crash?
And as far as I am concerned I think our GDP will be as good if not better outside of the EU over the next five years and willbe better there after.
I voted for a better future for the UK free of a european super state, a european army and an ever increasing interferance. not to stop every immigrant coming here or to kick those here out.
Did you ever think we should have joined the euro ? "
I’ve answered that question already, and have already told you that I have answered it.
Personally I never wanted to join the euro.
So who is going to answer my question?
How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !"
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here.
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I?
Of course not but when backed into a corner you never answer a question directed at you so once again which of your beloved experts predict the banking crash?
And as far as I am concerned I think our GDP will be as good if not better outside of the EU over the next five years and willbe better there after.
I voted for a better future for the UK free of a european super state, a european army and an ever increasing interferance. not to stop every immigrant coming here or to kick those here out.
Did you ever think we should have joined the euro ?
CLCC also failed to answer the question...what will it take for you to admit you were wrong about Brexit? "
Start a thread about it, and I will happily answer. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?"
It's called negotiation
I would give up some of my views for the good of the country
I don't want any trade agreement but I would accept if it frees the log jam !
Even perhaps a second referendum ?
You ? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?
It's called negotiation
I would give up some of my views for the good of the country
I don't want any trade agreement but I would accept if it frees the log jam !
Even perhaps a second referendum ?
You ? "
I would say leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, with its 4 freedoms. |
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"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here.
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I?
Of course not but when backed into a corner you never answer a question directed at you so once again which of your beloved experts predict the banking crash?
And as far as I am concerned I think our GDP will be as good if not better outside of the EU over the next five years and willbe better there after.
I voted for a better future for the UK free of a european super state, a european army and an ever increasing interferance. not to stop every immigrant coming here or to kick those here out.
Did you ever think we should have joined the euro ?
CLCC also failed to answer the question...what will it take for you to admit you were wrong about Brexit?
Start a thread about it, and I will happily answer."
You already started a thread about it yourself. You were asked this question several times on your own thread and you never gave an answer so if you won't give an answer in your own thread why would you do it on someone else's?  |
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"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?
It's called negotiation
I would give up some of my views for the good of the country
I don't want any trade agreement but I would accept if it frees the log jam !
Even perhaps a second referendum ?
You ?
I would say leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, with its 4 freedoms."
That's nonsense, if you stay in the single market you may as well stay a full member of the EU. All the changes Brexiteers want won't happen if we stay in the single market. |
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"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?"
Yes the 48% who lost should shut the f**k up. You lost so why should you get a say?
When the FA cup final is played the losing side don't get to take the trophy home. |
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"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?
Yes the 48% who lost should shut the f**k up. You lost so why should you get a say?
When the FA cup final is played the losing side don't get to take the trophy home. "
so your answer to those on the other side of the argument is to shut the fuck up..?
your either not as democratic a person as you make out or your debating position is so poor you feel its necessary to shout down and stifle debate..
what if they don't shut the fuck up?
what's your next option?
|
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"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?
Yes the 48% who lost should shut the f**k up. You lost so why should you get a say?
When the FA cup final is played the losing side don't get to take the trophy home.
so your answer to those on the other side of the argument is to shut the fuck up..?
your either not as democratic a person as you make out or your debating position is so poor you feel its necessary to shout down and stifle debate..
what if they don't shut the fuck up?
what's your next option?
"
What more is there to debate? Leave won the referendum so the vote should be respected we should now Leave the EU (and the single market). It's not rocket science is it. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?
It's called negotiation
I would give up some of my views for the good of the country
I don't want any trade agreement but I would accept if it frees the log jam !
Even perhaps a second referendum ?
You ?
I would say leave the EU, but stay in the Single Market, with its 4 freedoms.
That's nonsense, if you stay in the single market you may as well stay a full member of the EU. All the changes Brexiteers want won't happen if we stay in the single market. "
And yet we still still have left the EU, and so that would be Brexit. As the good lady said, Brexit mean Brexit!  |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"How much GDP are Brexiters willing to lose to achieve Brexit? 4% (IFS)? 7% (Treasury)?
If Brexiters are willing to loose GDP for their principles, why do you think that the EU wont be willing to lose some of their GDP to stick to their principles?
This gets to the heart of it, but no Leaver is yet to answer the question.
Because they're stuck in the cloud cuckoo land of 'they'll want to buy our stuff...' ?
No, why would anyone want to lose gdp? Do yov remainers not realise that the UK is the EU's largest single market? Why do they want to buy our stuff now? Is our stuff goiog to change when we leave? I can't believe how thick some people are on here. You lose every arguement you're involved in ... matey
So if we do lose any GDP you admit that Brexit wasn't worth that price?
If not, how much GDP are you willing to lose for your principles, and why do you thing that the EU aren't equally fond of their principles?
I guess the brexiters are still unable to answer this question.
They STILL can't answer it! They have at last been silenced
Just like you have been silenced on other threads where questions have been put forward to you but you STILL refuse to answer. Pot calling kettle black springs to mind here.
I personally have to respond for all of those who voted to Remain do I?
Of course not but when backed into a corner you never answer a question directed at you so once again which of your beloved experts predict the banking crash?
And as far as I am concerned I think our GDP will be as good if not better outside of the EU over the next five years and willbe better there after.
I voted for a better future for the UK free of a european super state, a european army and an ever increasing interferance. not to stop every immigrant coming here or to kick those here out.
Did you ever think we should have joined the euro ?
CLCC also failed to answer the question...what will it take for you to admit you were wrong about Brexit?
Start a thread about it, and I will happily answer.
You already started a thread about it yourself. You were asked this question several times on your own thread and you never gave an answer so if you won't give an answer in your own thread why would you do it on someone else's? "
People who couldn't understand a simple question derailed it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order |
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"It really is the time to drop the remain / brexiteers tags !
It's a mess and everyone should look to pull together for the sake of the Nation !
And by pull together you mean who exactly? 48% of the country just shut up, or that both sides give some concessions? What concessions are the Leave side going to give?
Yes the 48% who lost should shut the f**k up. You lost so why should you get a say?
When the FA cup final is played the losing side don't get to take the trophy home.
so your answer to those on the other side of the argument is to shut the fuck up..?
your either not as democratic a person as you make out or your debating position is so poor you feel its necessary to shout down and stifle debate..
what if they don't shut the fuck up?
what's your next option?
What more is there to debate? Leave won the referendum so the vote should be respected we should now Leave the EU (and the single market). It's not rocket science is it. "
that's the logic of stating in the 80's to people like Bill Cash 'well we are in the EU so you and your fellow Tory party colleague's are not allowed to have a say'..
its not how democracy works.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order"
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle "
you're really going to try and claim they haven't? |
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"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't? "
Well I haven't been moaning about it for the last 43 years, I haven't been alive that long. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
Well I haven't been moaning about it for the last 43 years, I haven't been alive that long. "
the moaning you've done about the subject makes it feel like 43,000 years to be honest |
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"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
Well I haven't been moaning about it for the last 43 years, I haven't been alive that long.
the moaning you've done about the subject makes it feel like 43,000 years to be honest "
So you admit your earlier claim about it being "irrefutable fact" was wrong then. Glad we cleared that up. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't? "
Proof? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
Well I haven't been moaning about it for the last 43 years, I haven't been alive that long.
the moaning you've done about the subject makes it feel like 43,000 years to be honest
So you admit your earlier claim about it being "irrefutable fact" was wrong then. Glad we cleared that up. "
i admit that the facts i wrote are factually correct and that it's a fact that you moan an awful lot |
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"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
Well I haven't been moaning about it for the last 43 years, I haven't been alive that long.
the moaning you've done about the subject makes it feel like 43,000 years to be honest
So you admit your earlier claim about it being "irrefutable fact" was wrong then. Glad we cleared that up.
i admit that the facts i wrote are factually correct and that it's a fact that you moan an awful lot "
Not for the last 43 years though (which you claimed was an irrefutable fact). I'm only 38 years old so your 43 year claim was false. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't? "
I can offer vast amounts of proof that the complete opposite is an irrefutable fact. Clicking the green arrow next to your user name would be an excellent start |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
Well I haven't been moaning about it for the last 43 years, I haven't been alive that long.
the moaning you've done about the subject makes it feel like 43,000 years to be honest
So you admit your earlier claim about it being "irrefutable fact" was wrong then. Glad we cleared that up.
i admit that the facts i wrote are factually correct and that it's a fact that you moan an awful lot
Not for the last 43 years though (which you claimed was an irrefutable fact). I'm only 38 years old so your 43 year claim was false. "
your attempt at playing semantics is making you look stupid |
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From the huffington post
'Nigel Farage said back in May that 52-48 win for the Remain side in the EU referendum would be “unfinished business”.
In an interview with the Mirror the Ukip leader said such a narrow margin would prompt him to fight for a second referendum.
He said: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
I can offer vast amounts of proof that the complete opposite is an irrefutable fact. Clicking the green arrow next to your user name would be an excellent start "
How does the green arrow next to my user name proof that Euroskeptics haven't been complaining about the UK being a member of the EU (and predecessor organisations) for the last 40+ years?
What proof do you want of Euroskeptic moaning anyway? Are you looking for a quote from each year? Can the years since UKIP (and its previous incarnations) just be taken as a given? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
I can offer vast amounts of proof that the complete opposite is an irrefutable fact. Clicking the green arrow next to your user name would be an excellent start
How does the green arrow next to my user name proof that Euroskeptics haven't been complaining about the UK being a member of the EU (and predecessor organisations) for the last 40+ years?
What proof do you want of Euroskeptic moaning anyway? Are you looking for a quote from each year? Can the years since UKIP (and its previous incarnations) just be taken as a given? "
I'll support you in this, I've been around a while and I can't remember a time when Eurosceptics weren't moaning about it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
I can offer vast amounts of proof that the complete opposite is an irrefutable fact. Clicking the green arrow next to your user name would be an excellent start
How does the green arrow next to my user name proof that Euroskeptics haven't been complaining about the UK being a member of the EU (and predecessor organisations) for the last 40+ years?
What proof do you want of Euroskeptic moaning anyway? Are you looking for a quote from each year? Can the years since UKIP (and its previous incarnations) just be taken as a given?
I'll support you in this, I've been around a while and I can't remember a time when Eurosceptics weren't moaning about it."
Still no proof, just waffling hearsay. Your grounds of support are tenuous, to say the least. Are you guys going to stop whining when this is all over - perhaps some of you could even get jobs?? |
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"when it comes to Britain being part of the eec/eu (or whatever the fuck pedants want to call it), it's an irrefutable fact that those who have wanted to leave have been whiney little bitches and refused to shut the f**k up for the last 43 years ..... and now they expect silence from those who were happy with britains involvement .... those leavers who are now cynically attemting to shut down the debate are hypocritical casuists of the lowest order
"irrefutable fact"? Really?? Proof??? Evidence???? Reliable sources????? Links??????
Waffle
you're really going to try and claim they haven't?
I can offer vast amounts of proof that the complete opposite is an irrefutable fact. Clicking the green arrow next to your user name would be an excellent start
How does the green arrow next to my user name proof that Euroskeptics haven't been complaining about the UK being a member of the EU (and predecessor organisations) for the last 40+ years?
What proof do you want of Euroskeptic moaning anyway? Are you looking for a quote from each year? Can the years since UKIP (and its previous incarnations) just be taken as a given? "
What year did the Ukip party form then? I'll give you a clue, it was less than 40 years ago. |
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"It was 25 years ago wasn't it?
No bitching before that?
I reckon given how long it's taken you to work out who punched who it would have taken a good 15 years to get an actual party formed. "
It was people like your hero Jeremy Corbyn who were bitching about being in the common market/EEC in the 1970's and 1980's. Then Corbyn bitched about being in the EU throughout the 1990's and the 2000's, in fact right up to the point he became leader of the labour party. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
the most moronic thing is that not only is it irrefutable fact that they've bitched and whined continuously for 43 years, now they've got what they want they still won't stop bitching and whining about it! |
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"the most moronic thing is that not only is it irrefutable fact that they've bitched and whined continuously for 43 years, now they've got what they want they still won't stop bitching and whining about it! "
That's because Remoaners like you still refuse to accept the referendum result, and we haven't actually left yet. Article 50 has still not been triggered. |
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"Bitching about aspects of it, wanting to change/improve it is not the same as wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water and leave overall. "
You are mistaken, Corbyn's position on this matter for decades was for Britain to leave the EU (same as Tony Benn and same as George Galloway). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"the most moronic thing is that not only is it irrefutable fact that they've bitched and whined continuously for 43 years, now they've got what they want they still won't stop bitching and whining about it!
That's because Remoaners like you still refuse to accept the referendum result, and we haven't actually left yet. Article 50 has still not been triggered. "
you're speculating on how i voted now .... and as has been proven time and again, presumption is the mother of all fuck ups ..... i couldn't give a kipturd wether we're in or out i just smell perpetual bullshit from whining leavers and I choose comment about it on this forum |
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"Bitching about aspects of it, wanting to change/improve it is not the same as wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water and leave overall.
You are mistaken, Corbyn's position on this matter for decades was for Britain to leave the EU (same as Tony Benn and same as George Galloway). "
I'm not mistaken.
Corbyn voted to leave the common market in the 1975 referendum, that is true. In 1975 the Tories were almost unanimously in favour of the EU. The issue split labour completely. The enthusiastic pro EU faction led by Roy Jenkins was quite small but there were also most of the big hitters (Callaghan, Healy, Wilson) who were unenthusiastic but in favour of staying in on balance.
Corbyn was with Benn and viewed it as a capitalist club and bad for workers.
That was then. Fast forward to now. The EU has changed hasn't it? It was a central theme of the leave campaign that what we voted to join is not what it became so you can hardly deny this. As for the direction it has shifted, the Tories are now split while labour and the lib Dems and the snp were pretty unanimously in favour.
So actually Corbyn has stayed true, it is the nature of the EU that has flipped.
That is confirmed by corbyns speech yesterday where he is making it a condition that we stay in the single market because it turns out the eu regulations to ensure fair competition and standards of product protect consumers and workers.
Ttip is a concern for Corbyn. He is suspicious of it but he knows it won't get blocked by a Tory government. If we leave that is what they will give us with the US. It is more likely to be thwarted or revised by someone in EU.
As for his opposition to Maastricht and Lisbon treaties he has been always concerned with the lack of democratic accountability of the EU in some respects, particularly with some policy makers. I think of all the arguments against the EU this is one of the best. This was mainly why Corbyn was against these treaties.
Ukippers really shouldn't be against protest votes, which is what this was.
So you really need to change your view that Corbyn is a typical politician that doesn't stick to his principles. He has. You can be critical of something, want to change it, but if it has changed over the years to allow you to give it a 7/10 rating you can clearly vote for it on balance or look to keep many important things about a relationship with an institution. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"..... presumption is the mother of all fuck ups ...."
Where you in the military at any time? That is such a memorable expression for me albeit it was assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Drilled into me and stuck for the rest of my life. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"..... presumption is the mother of all fuck ups ....
Where you in the military at any time? That is such a memorable expression for me albeit it was assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Drilled into me and stuck for the rest of my life."
Were ... even ?? |
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"the most moronic thing is that not only is it irrefutable fact that they've bitched and whined continuously for 43 years, now they've got what they want they still won't stop bitching and whining about it!
That's because Remoaners like you still refuse to accept the referendum result, and we haven't actually left yet. Article 50 has still not been triggered.
you're speculating on how i voted now .... and as has been proven time and again, presumption is the mother of all fuck ups ..... i couldn't give a kipturd wether we're in or out i just smell perpetual bullshit from whining leavers and I choose comment about it on this forum"
I smell perpetual bullshit coming from you now, you are only commenting on the whining leavers, and not the whining many Remainders have done on here since June 23rd, it gives your position away, pretty obvious which side of the fence you are on. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The fact is that the British people were duped into voting to join what was then suposed to be a "common market," not knowing that what it was to become was a federal communist state.
Had they known what it was to become, they would never have been in favour of it... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The fact is that the British people were duped into voting to join what was then suposed to be a "common market," not knowing that what it was to become was a federal communist state.
Had they known what it was to become, they would never have been in favour of it..."
communist state? how on earth can you call it a communist state? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The fact is that the British people were duped into voting to join what was then suposed to be a "common market," not knowing that what it was to become was a federal communist state.
Had they known what it was to become, they would never have been in favour of it...
communist state? how on earth can you call it a communist state?"
Have a look at the main decision makers, and it is easy to decipher that all the power belongs to members of the political left.
France, Gernany, and Belgium.
Nuff said. |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"The fact is that the British people were duped into voting to join what was then suposed to be a "common market," not knowing that what it was to become was a federal communist state.
Had they known what it was to become, they would never have been in favour of it...
communist state? how on earth can you call it a communist state?
Have a look at the main decision makers, and it is easy to decipher that all the power belongs to members of the political left.
France, Gernany, and Belgium.
Nuff said. "
Yet you yourself are a supporter of Putin.....irony eh? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"the most moronic thing is that not only is it irrefutable fact that they've bitched and whined continuously for 43 years, now they've got what they want they still won't stop bitching and whining about it!
That's because Remoaners like you still refuse to accept the referendum result, and we haven't actually left yet. Article 50 has still not been triggered.
you're speculating on how i voted now .... and as has been proven time and again, presumption is the mother of all fuck ups ..... i couldn't give a kipturd wether we're in or out i just smell perpetual bullshit from whining leavers and I choose comment about it on this forum
I smell perpetual bullshit coming from you now, you are only commenting on the whining leavers, and not the whining many Remainders have done on here since June 23rd, it gives your position away, pretty obvious which side of the fence you are on. "
you exemplify what i said about presumption ..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The fact is that the British people were duped into voting to join what was then suposed to be a "common market," "
that's not a fact ..... merely your wild surmise |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The fact is that the British people were duped into voting to join what was then suposed to be a "common market," not knowing that what it was to become was a federal communist state.
Had they known what it was to become, they would never have been in favour of it...
communist state? how on earth can you call it a communist state?
Have a look at the main decision makers, and it is easy to decipher that all the power belongs to members of the political left.
France, Gernany, and Belgium.
Nuff said. "
Honestly? I think you really have no idea what you are talking about. |
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