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Arms sales to Saudi Arabia
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"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? " We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. | |||
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"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. " The EU aren't building their own army.  | |||
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"Refusing to sell weapons or munitions on moral grounds can only be described as delusional as the whole industry is amoral. From once one accepts that there can be no such thing as a moral arms industry then the question changes and effectively becomes questions of national policy and security. Firstly how lightly is it that the weapons and munitions supplied will be turned against us? Secondly, how much do we wish to support the regime in power and how do we believe it's successor (if removed) would act towards us? And finally who would take up the shortfall if we were not to supply said munitions and weapons, and how would it effect our economy? Unfortunately I do not believe that we would benefit in any way from the weakening or removal of the Saudi regime. I have to conclude that regardless of how brutal, repressive and destabilising it is, it is better than the alternative. Therefore I find myself agreeing with the buffoon that we should continue to supply arms to Saudi and keep the jobs here." I fully understand what you mean, but Saudi Arabia is under no military threat from Yemen, so we are not selling them arms to protect themselves, we are selling them arms solely for financial reasons. I wonder how the mood would be if some of the small arms we sold to the Saudis ended up in this country in the hands of terrorists gunning down families in a shopping mall? | |||
"Refusing to sell weapons or munitions on moral grounds can only be described as delusional as the whole industry is amoral. From once one accepts that there can be no such thing as a moral arms industry then the question changes and effectively becomes questions of national policy and security. Firstly how lightly is it that the weapons and munitions supplied will be turned against us? Secondly, how much do we wish to support the regime in power and how do we believe it's successor (if removed) would act towards us? And finally who would take up the shortfall if we were not to supply said munitions and weapons, and how would it effect our economy? Unfortunately I do not believe that we would benefit in any way from the weakening or removal of the Saudi regime. I have to conclude that regardless of how brutal, repressive and destabilising it is, it is better than the alternative. Therefore I find myself agreeing with the buffoon that we should continue to supply arms to Saudi and keep the jobs here. I fully understand what you mean, but Saudi Arabia is under no military threat from Yemen, so we are not selling them arms to protect themselves, we are selling them arms solely for financial reasons. I wonder how the mood would be if some of the small arms we sold to the Saudis ended up in this country in the hands of terrorists gunning down families in a shopping mall?" do you think terrorists go to Saudi and say could we have some of those British small arms please so that we can shoot families in a mall, if you haven't got any we won't bother, we don't like any other guns? | |||
"I fully understand what you mean, but Saudi Arabia is under no military threat from Yemen, so we are not selling them arms to protect themselves, we are selling them arms solely for financial reasons. I wonder how the mood would be if some of the small arms we sold to the Saudis ended up in this country in the hands of terrorists gunning down families in a shopping mall?" If you understand my thinking why do you think that we would differentiate between weapons and munitions bought for the purposes of defence and weapons bought to repress others anywhere. I deliberately did not call the arms industry immoral, because that would suggest it has morals no matter how twisted. I called it amoral because there are no morals where the worldwide arms and munitions industry is concerned. You need to understand this and stop anthropomorphising an industry that has no human values, and whose whole purpose is to destroy human life. | |||
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"Refusing to sell weapons or munitions on moral grounds can only be described as delusional as the whole industry is amoral. From once one accepts that there can be no such thing as a moral arms industry then the question changes and effectively becomes questions of national policy and security. Firstly how lightly is it that the weapons and munitions supplied will be turned against us? Secondly, how much do we wish to support the regime in power and how do we believe it's successor (if removed) would act towards us? And finally who would take up the shortfall if we were not to supply said munitions and weapons, and how would it effect our economy? Unfortunately I do not believe that we would benefit in any way from the weakening or removal of the Saudi regime. I have to conclude that regardless of how brutal, repressive and destabilising it is, it is better than the alternative. Therefore I find myself agreeing with the buffoon that we should continue to supply arms to Saudi and keep the jobs here. I fully understand what you mean, but Saudi Arabia is under no military threat from Yemen, so we are not selling them arms to protect themselves, we are selling them arms solely for financial reasons. I wonder how the mood would be if some of the small arms we sold to the Saudis ended up in this country in the hands of terrorists gunning down families in a shopping mall? do you think terrorists go to Saudi and say could we have some of those British small arms please so that we can shoot families in a mall, if you haven't got any we won't bother, we don't like any other guns?" Once again you reply to another of my posts with a bloody stupid attitude, it's well documented that Saudi Arabia redistributes small arms to terrorist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra who are affiliated to al Qaeda. The United States recently described Jabhat al-Nusra as a potential danger to Western European countries and placed them on the terrorist groups list. Some Jabhat al-Nusra small arms were recently sized in Belgium, and as Saudi Arabia support this Wahhabist group it's bloody obvious where these guns came from. | |||
"Refusing to sell weapons or munitions on moral grounds can only be described as delusional as the whole industry is amoral. From once one accepts that there can be no such thing as a moral arms industry then the question changes and effectively becomes questions of national policy and security. Firstly how lightly is it that the weapons and munitions supplied will be turned against us? Secondly, how much do we wish to support the regime in power and how do we believe it's successor (if removed) would act towards us? And finally who would take up the shortfall if we were not to supply said munitions and weapons, and how would it effect our economy? Unfortunately I do not believe that we would benefit in any way from the weakening or removal of the Saudi regime. I have to conclude that regardless of how brutal, repressive and destabilising it is, it is better than the alternative. Therefore I find myself agreeing with the buffoon that we should continue to supply arms to Saudi and keep the jobs here. I fully understand what you mean, but Saudi Arabia is under no military threat from Yemen, so we are not selling them arms to protect themselves, we are selling them arms solely for financial reasons. I wonder how the mood would be if some of the small arms we sold to the Saudis ended up in this country in the hands of terrorists gunning down families in a shopping mall? do you think terrorists go to Saudi and say could we have some of those British small arms please so that we can shoot families in a mall, if you haven't got any we won't bother, we don't like any other guns? Once again you reply to another of my posts with a bloody stupid attitude, it's well documented that Saudi Arabia redistributes small arms to terrorist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra who are affiliated to al Qaeda. The United States recently described Jabhat al-Nusra as a potential danger to Western European countries and placed them on the terrorist groups list. Some Jabhat al-Nusra small arms were recently sized in Belgium, and as Saudi Arabia support this Wahhabist group it's bloody obvious where these guns came from. " well ask a stupid question, get a stupid response | |||
"I'm sure no one here likes what Saudi Arabia is doing but if we didn't sell them arms they would simply shop elsewhere for it. "  | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army. "perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army  | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army "What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak? The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? " I don't think there really are any morals in an industry solely aimed at ending life by blasting them to bits. If terrorists are going to shoot British families then where the guns originated from is totally irrelevant. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? I don't think there really are any morals in an industry solely aimed at ending life by blasting them to bits. If terrorists are going to shoot British families then where the guns originated from is totally irrelevant." The fallout from any potential use of British made weapons to harm people on our streets would not be irrelevant though, it would be a massive political fallout. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army "That lot read like Man Utd's shopping list. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? I don't think there really are any morals in an industry solely aimed at ending life by blasting them to bits. If terrorists are going to shoot British families then where the guns originated from is totally irrelevant. The fallout from any potential use of British made weapons to harm people on our streets would not be irrelevant though, it would be a massive political fallout." do you honestly think anyone gives two flying fucks where a weapon of firearm is made, as long as it is accurate and does the job, that is what matters It rarely enters my mind that my .308Model 700 SPS Tactical with a 20" heavy-contour tactical-style fluted barrel is made in USA, infact it hasn't once entered my mind until these posts above and even then what the fuck does it matter? I must admit I do feel sad at times when taking out a 250+lb red stag as they are such beautiful beasts I think I have more feelings for animals than humans | |||
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"Once again you use bollocks to answer one of my posts, am I meant to be impressed that you own a firearm?, is it even faintly relevant to the question of arms sales to Saudi Arabia? " again, what you don't seem to understand is, the people who use them, don't give two flying fucks where hey are made, as long as the do the job, what part of that do you not understand | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army."Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget. | |||
"Once again you use bollocks to answer one of my posts, am I meant to be impressed that you own a firearm?, is it even faintly relevant to the question of arms sales to Saudi Arabia? again, what you don't seem to understand is, the people who use them, don't give two flying fucks where hey are made, as long as the do the job, what part of that do you not understand" It's not the people who use them that will be questioning where they were made, if British made exported small arms were used on OUR streets to kill OUR people then there would be uproar. What part of that don't YOU understand? Why do you continually twist my posts to make an argument out of it?.....read what I posted originally, I never suggested that the people using these guns care where they come from.... But don't let that fact stop you from following my posts around like a little Jack Russell. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget."It's highly unlikely to happen as it would spell the end for NATO..... | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget."So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army? | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
It's highly unlikely to happen as it would spell the end for NATO....."I agree. Still thinking through if I think that would be good or bad. I guess it would depend on the USA wanting to stay in? | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army? "No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see. | |||
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"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see."So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army" | |||
"Trump is constantly questioning the need for NATO, maybe that has a bearing on the fact that certain members of the EU are looking more favourably towards a possible EU army? Personally I think that Europe needs NATO." NATO with out the US is much weaker but less susceptible to pressure. NATO as is would be best. But change is coming. Not sure in which direction yet. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army" "As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested. "But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made? | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made? "If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be. | |||
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"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be."Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army. The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army". For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?). Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from? Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly. Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have? Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is? | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?"Hahaha Gotta love copy and paste Some of this I agree with alot of it I don't. If it's ok I'll respond to your points in stages because that was a monster post
First paragraph. You are correct the old national armies will have to go. The pro federalist nations would be fine with this. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?"2nd paragraph. All correct. I can't see these changing even with a new European structure. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
2nd paragraph. All correct. I can't see these changing even with a new European structure."4th & 5th paragraphs Standardisation is already in place because of NATO. It's only the cartridges that need to be available. So whether a unit has m16, sa80 or Sig they can all fire them. The common language is English. Might that change if the UK and USA aren't involved? There are already bases, they would just be retasked. Yes new Hq and communication facilities would need to be built. Pay would have to be standardised and paid in euros. Ranks are already standardised and would be retained when transferred over to a new military structure. Phew! Getting there! | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?"Navies and airforces. I haven't seen anything about consolidating them but you are right it would make sense to follow the same logic as the ground forces. Again because of NATO there is alot of standardisation already and the bases are already in place. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?"Finally - General Staff, again from NATO experience, easy to put together and integrate. The bureaucracy of ordering, administering etc would be done by expanding the European Commission. They would also have to look after the budgeting, pensions and expenditure. The nuclear issue could be thorny as I suspect the french will want to keep there independent deterrent. Not sure what the Germans will think of that. I think I've answered everything!?! | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
2nd paragraph. All correct. I can't see these changing even with a new European structure.
4th & 5th paragraphs
Standardisation is already in place because of NATO. It's only the cartridges that need to be available. So whether a unit has m16, sa80 or Sig they can all fire them. The common language is English. Might that change if the UK and USA aren't involved? There are already bases, they would just be retasked. Yes new Hq and communication facilities would need to be built. Pay would have to be standardised and paid in euros. Ranks are already standardised and would be retained when transferred over to a new military structure.
Phew! Getting there! "The NATO standardisation doesn’t go far enough to for the creation of a new army. You couldn’t have a platoon with 30 different rifles that all fire the same cartridge because its not just about the cartridge. What if one guy has an M16 and the charging handle breaks, he goes to the QM and asks for a new one and is told, no sorry, don’t have any of those for your M16, Ive got some for the SA80 A2, or some for a FAMAS, I might have one for a G36, is that any good for you? No, as tedious and unsexy it is, a military stands or falls on its logistics, and having multiple rifles let alone multiple attack helicopters, tanks, IFV etc. etc. etc. would cripple an army before you even though about giving it an order. There are already bases, but for them to be empty, you would have to disband your existing national armies, which most countries aren’t too keen on actually doing. Ranks aren’t really standardised at the moment even within the UK military. You have Privates, you have Troopers, you have Signallers, Riflemen, Guardsmen, Sappers etc. all at the same rank. Imagine multiplying that by 27 nations (or however many would be in this “European Army”) You want to pay them in Euros, but only 19 out of the 27 member states use the euro. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
Navies and airforces. I haven't seen anything about consolidating them but you are right it would make sense to follow the same logic as the ground forces. Again because of NATO there is alot of standardisation already and the bases are already in place."You say about standardisation but it just wouldn’t work. There would either be existing national militaries at the same time as this new EU Army, or there wouldn’t. If there were, then you can have their equipment because they are still using it. If there weren’t then you would get a huge mishmash of equipment that you couldn’t keep the supply chain going for, like I said with they rifles, but they are very simple compared to say a fighter jet. You wouldn’t want say 15 different fighter jets, because you wouldn’t be able to train people to keep them operational, fly them, and resupply them. You couldn’t have a pilot or ground crew changing from a Typhoon to a MiG to a Rafale at the drop of a hat, they all have to be very expensively trained on one system at a time. So the only rational option would be to order new equipment at an astronomical cost and many many years lead time. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
Finally - General Staff, again from NATO experience, easy to put together and integrate. The bureaucracy of ordering, administering etc would be done by expanding the European Commission. They would also have to look after the budgeting, pensions and expenditure. The nuclear issue could be thorny as I suspect the french will want to keep there independent deterrent. Not sure what the Germans will think of that.
I think I've answered everything!?!
"But your new Army would even have any Generals to lead a General Staff! You are talking about creating a New Army, its not like NATO where you can just say “we need an Airforce 2 star, which country will lend us one?" | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
2nd paragraph. All correct. I can't see these changing even with a new European structure.
4th & 5th paragraphs
Standardisation is already in place because of NATO. It's only the cartridges that need to be available. So whether a unit has m16, sa80 or Sig they can all fire them. The common language is English. Might that change if the UK and USA aren't involved? There are already bases, they would just be retasked. Yes new Hq and communication facilities would need to be built. Pay would have to be standardised and paid in euros. Ranks are already standardised and would be retained when transferred over to a new military structure.
Phew! Getting there!
The NATO standardisation doesn’t go far enough to for the creation of a new army. You couldn’t have a platoon with 30 different rifles that all fire the same cartridge because its not just about the cartridge. What if one guy has an M16 and the charging handle breaks, he goes to the QM and asks for a new one and is told, no sorry, don’t have any of those for your M16, Ive got some for the SA80 A2, or some for a FAMAS, I might have one for a G36, is that any good for you? No, as tedious and unsexy it is, a military stands or falls on its logistics, and having multiple rifles let alone multiple attack helicopters, tanks, IFV etc. etc. etc. would cripple an army before you even though about giving it an order.
There are already bases, but for them to be empty, you would have to disband your existing national armies, which most countries aren’t too keen on actually doing.
Ranks aren’t really standardised at the moment even within the UK military. You have Privates, you have Troopers, you have Signallers, Riflemen, Guardsmen, Sappers etc. all at the same rank. Imagine multiplying that by 27 nations (or however many would be in this “European Army”) You want to pay them in Euros, but only 19 out of the 27 member states use the euro."It's unlikely that units would have mixed equipment below brigade level. They didn't in Afghanistan when they were serving along side other nationalities. As for disbanding national armies, I've heard the french and Germans talking about just this since the early 90's. Of course they both see them selves as being the dominant party so I'm not holding my breath. When it comes to rank titles, again I think they would have to bring in a standardised title structure. Alot of our existing names are from historic tradition. Currency-this whole idea comes off it would be a huge step towards federalism and having to join the Euro wouldn't be far behind. | |||
It's nice to have a reasoned debate instead of the usual ranting abuse I see on the political forums!
| |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? I don't think there really are any morals in an industry solely aimed at ending life by blasting them to bits. If terrorists are going to shoot British families then where the guns originated from is totally irrelevant. The fallout from any potential use of British made weapons to harm people on our streets would not be irrelevant though, it would be a massive political fallout." I don't think that would come into it for a few reasons. A gun is a gun be it British, American, Czech etc & while they do normally mention where the weapon was made in news reports British guns will have killed British people before with no "political fallout" Also even if it had been sold to another country before it probably wouldn't come to light. If it wasn't a British gun then it would be just another gun anyway so us not selling to other countries isn't going to stop it if it's going to happen. I think you're maybe reading a bit further than needed on this one but i do see where your thinking is. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
Navies and airforces. I haven't seen anything about consolidating them but you are right it would make sense to follow the same logic as the ground forces. Again because of NATO there is alot of standardisation already and the bases are already in place.
You say about standardisation but it just wouldn’t work. There would either be existing national militaries at the same time as this new EU Army, or there wouldn’t. If there were, then you can have their equipment because they are still using it. If there weren’t then you would get a huge mishmash of equipment that you couldn’t keep the supply chain going for, like I said with they rifles, but they are very simple compared to say a fighter jet. You wouldn’t want say 15 different fighter jets, because you wouldn’t be able to train people to keep them operational, fly them, and resupply them. You couldn’t have a pilot or ground crew changing from a Typhoon to a MiG to a Rafale at the drop of a hat, they all have to be very expensively trained on one system at a time. So the only rational option would be to order new equipment at an astronomical cost and many many years lead time."Again I would say that a simple transition (a re-badging exercise)from a national army to an EU force would mean that units keep there equipment. There just wouldn't be a mix of aircraft in one operational unit. And as time passed and obsolete kit gets replaced, that's when you could slim down the breadth of the inventories. That is the nature of operating a military. Planning is done on a decade long time scales. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
What rifle will this EU army use? What uniform will they wear? What language will they speak?
The EU will never have an army, in the same way NATO will never have an army.
Google European Army. There are moves already being made. For the smaller countries it makes sense as all they would need to provide is fighting and logistical units. The costs of running a supporting bureaucracy (like the ministry of defence), the communications structures and the headquarters and planning units would all be paid for out if the commissions budget.
So do you think some people will chose to join their national army, and others will chose to join an "EU Army" do you? There will be two separate armies or no national armies and just a pan European army?
No idea what the plan is. I suspect you will join your national force which will be in the European Army. For example 1St division might be French, 2nd division German etc. Have to wait and see.
So what you are actually talking about then is national armies, sending distinct formations to fight along side allies. That has been happening for millennia, and is not a "European Army"
As I said, I have no idea what the planned structure is. Mine was a supposition. It may well end up as no National armies as you have suggested.
But you told me to google it and that plans are already being made?
If you have Googled it then you know as much as I do. They political leaders are only just starting to talk about what the structure will be.
Well I have done a lot more than google it, and can tell you that there wont be an "European Army" anytime soon, if at all. A European Army would have to separate from the national militaries, otherwise it wouldn't be an Army. Like I said, NATO doesn't have an Army.
The UK, and other European allies, has multiple arrangements for joint military forces, but these do not constitute an Army. These include our contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, the UK/French Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, and the UK Joint Expeditionary Force made up of the UK, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
The EU may create a similar structure, but that would not be an Army. People don't seem to have a problem with the arrangements mentioned above, (most don't even know that they exist), but then get all worked up about a "European Army".
For there to be a "European Army" people would have to join it directly, not join their national army. There would have to be a standardization of equipment, one assault rifle, one fire supression weapon system, one tank, one IFV etc, not the huge range that you would find in the individual inventories of the EU member states. There would need to be a single language that everyone spoke. There would need to be new bases for this new army to train and operate from, new head quarters, a new rank system to be created, a pay structure created (what currency are you going to pay them in?).
Traditionally there are two stages of entry to the military, enlisted (Private) and commissioned (2nd Lt), and then people work their way up the ranks with experience. If you created a new "Army" from scratch, where would you get your Warrant Officers, or your Generals from?
Although we are using the word "Army" we are really meaning military, so you would need planes and ships and submarines etc. as well. Just look how long it takes to build something like an aircraft carrier, whats the point of recruiting a bunch of sailors if they don't have any ships to sail on? Or pilots without planes or helicopters to fly.
Of course you wouldneed to have a General or a Defence staff to plan the strategic direction for this new military that you would need before you could even consider the manning levels or equipment that you needed. Will this organisation be for territorial defence, or do you want it to have an expeditionary capability? Will this European Army be a nuclear power? Who would be the civilian leaders of this new military? How will it be funded? What kind of pension scheme and WIS scheme will it have?
Hopefully you can now see how ridiculous this talk of a "European Army" is?
Finally - General Staff, again from NATO experience, easy to put together and integrate. The bureaucracy of ordering, administering etc would be done by expanding the European Commission. They would also have to look after the budgeting, pensions and expenditure. The nuclear issue could be thorny as I suspect the french will want to keep there independent deterrent. Not sure what the Germans will think of that.
I think I've answered everything!?!
But your new Army would even have any Generals to lead a General Staff! You are talking about creating a New Army, its not like NATO where you can just say “we need an Airforce 2 star, which country will lend us one?" "Yes it would. They would be transferred over from the disbanded national forces. Actually thinking about it, there might even be too many senior staff for the number of units and positions (streamlining through consolidation). Another reason the armed forces might have to resist the whole idea? | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? I don't think there really are any morals in an industry solely aimed at ending life by blasting them to bits. If terrorists are going to shoot British families then where the guns originated from is totally irrelevant. The fallout from any potential use of British made weapons to harm people on our streets would not be irrelevant though, it would be a massive political fallout. I don't think that would come into it for a few reasons. A gun is a gun be it British, American, Czech etc & while they do normally mention where the weapon was made in news reports British guns will have killed British people before with no "political fallout" Also even if it had been sold to another country before it probably wouldn't come to light. If it wasn't a British gun then it would be just another gun anyway so us not selling to other countries isn't going to stop it if it's going to happen. I think you're maybe reading a bit further than needed on this one but i do see where your thinking is." Aah! you've brought the thread back to it's actual question! Yes CLCC and me went way of topic discussing the possibility of an EU army. Sorry about that | |||
"Trump is constantly questioning the need for NATO, maybe that has a bearing on the fact that certain members of the EU are looking more favourably towards a possible EU army? Personally I think that Europe needs NATO." Trump keeps questioning NATO because other countries (particularly in Europe) are not pulling their weight and not meeting their financial obligations. America has a right to be a bit pissed off about that, don't you think? Why should the USA keep footing all the bills when others keep falling short? | |||
"Yes it would. They would be transferred over from the disbanded national forces. Actually thinking about it, there might even be too many senior staff for the number of units and positions (streamlining through consolidation). Another reason the armed forces might have to resist the whole idea?" Why do you and so many others think an EU Army is a one or other deal, and means the disbandment of member nations own armed forces? Just to be clear there is a working model in the USA. The USA is a federal country made up of 50 states, the federal government has federal armed forces, we know them as the US army, navy, marine corps and air force. Each state also has it's own armed forces, they are called national guards, but are each states own army, air force and navy for those with seaboards. I see no reason why the EU could not copy or modify that model. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army "EU President Jean Claude Juncker too. The formation of an EU army is mentioned in the EU 5 Presidents report, and Juncker talked about it in his state of the Union speech earlier this year. | |||
"Trump is constantly questioning the need for NATO, maybe that has a bearing on the fact that certain members of the EU are looking more favourably towards a possible EU army? Personally I think that Europe needs NATO. Trump keeps questioning NATO because other countries (particularly in Europe) are not pulling their weight and not meeting their financial obligations. America has a right to be a bit pissed off about that, don't you think? Why should the USA keep footing all the bills when others keep falling short? " Yep they are right. With defence spending being cut back along with everything else we aren't doing what we said we would. Aren't we s'pose to spend 2% of our annual budget? | |||
"Yes it would. They would be transferred over from the disbanded national forces. Actually thinking about it, there might even be too many senior staff for the number of units and positions (streamlining through consolidation). Another reason the armed forces might have to resist the whole idea? Why do you and so many others think an EU Army is a one or other deal, and means the disbandment of member nations own armed forces? Just to be clear there is a working model in the USA. The USA is a federal country made up of 50 states, the federal government has federal armed forces, we know them as the US army, navy, marine corps and air force. Each state also has it's own armed forces, they are called national guards, but are each states own army, air force and navy for those with seaboards. I see no reason why the EU could not copy or modify that model." Yes no reason it couldn't work. I just think the poorer smaller countries like Portugal and some of the Eastern European states will find it cheaper to just sign up to one and not have to foot the bill for the bureaucracy, support and comms structures. | |||
"Trump is constantly questioning the need for NATO, maybe that has a bearing on the fact that certain members of the EU are looking more favourably towards a possible EU army? Personally I think that Europe needs NATO. Trump keeps questioning NATO because other countries (particularly in Europe) are not pulling their weight and not meeting their financial obligations. America has a right to be a bit pissed off about that, don't you think? Why should the USA keep footing all the bills when others keep falling short? " Absolutely, but maybe that is the price that the US has to pay to have military influence in Europe and Asia, the 'Dark Military' in the US, the people we never get to see or hear from, make the real decisions on US foreign policy and just push the President (any president) in the direction that they want him or her to go. | |||
"Trump is constantly questioning the need for NATO, maybe that has a bearing on the fact that certain members of the EU are looking more favourably towards a possible EU army? Personally I think that Europe needs NATO. Trump keeps questioning NATO because other countries (particularly in Europe) are not pulling their weight and not meeting their financial obligations. America has a right to be a bit pissed off about that, don't you think? Why should the USA keep footing all the bills when others keep falling short? Yep they are right. With defence spending being cut back along with everything else we aren't doing what we said we would. Aren't we s'pose to spend 2% of our annual budget? " We do now spend 2% on defence, but that is due to imaginative accounting, rather than true spending, unfortunately. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
EU President Jean Claude Juncker too. The formation of an EU army is mentioned in the EU 5 Presidents report, and Juncker talked about it in his state of the Union speech earlier this year. "It is something that terrifies you, but you don't even know what it is. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
EU President Jean Claude Juncker too. The formation of an EU army is mentioned in the EU 5 Presidents report, and Juncker talked about it in his state of the Union speech earlier this year.
It is something that terrifies you, but you don't even know what it is. "I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
EU President Jean Claude Juncker too. The formation of an EU army is mentioned in the EU 5 Presidents report, and Juncker talked about it in his state of the Union speech earlier this year.
It is something that terrifies you, but you don't even know what it is.
I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense"Well at least we've cleared that up then. | |||
"I've just heard that Boris Johnson has backed continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia because stopping it would impact on British jobs.....I'd like to ask fellow forumites if British jobs at any cost are worth it on ground of morality? We are the second largest Arms dealer in the World, we supply all types of Assault rifles and pistols, various bombs & missiles, fighter jets, parts for drones and much more to various countries around the World including Saudi, Israel, Bahrain, Turkmenistan, Maldives and others. And with the EU in talks for building their own army, then we will be in the front of supply. Morality does not have a look in. The EU aren't building their own army.
perhaps you should send a joint letter to Federica Mogherini, Matteo Renzi, Roberta Pinotti and Paolo Gentiloni, let them know that there are no plans for a European (EU) army
EU President Jean Claude Juncker too. The formation of an EU army is mentioned in the EU 5 Presidents report, and Juncker talked about it in his state of the Union speech earlier this year.
It is something that terrifies you, but you don't even know what it is.
I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense
Well at least we've cleared that up then."Happy to help | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense" Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on?" Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain" Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain" But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?  | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that....." you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember? "Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU" I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?"Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? " without being resident being an EU citizen makes no difference, you still can't vote. But I can give opinions on the EU and on where my taxes should go | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism? "Do you want to explain that one? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?"Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you "Why, what does it say in there? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?"Oh it says loads. | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads."about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance"I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? without being resident being an EU citizen makes no difference, you still can't vote. But I can give opinions on the EU and on where my taxes should go" As I said, you are in no position to question the Spanish government on how they spend their tax income, your opinion means nothing to them same as it doesn't mean anything to them when a Spanish Citizen who is a millionaire pays considerably more in Spanish taxes than you or I. | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying? "Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance? What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? without being resident being an EU citizen makes no difference, you still can't vote. But I can give opinions on the EU and on where my taxes should go As I said, you are in no position to question the Spanish government on how they spend their tax income, your opinion means nothing to them same as it doesn't mean anything to them when a Spanish Citizen who is a millionaire pays considerably more in Spanish taxes than you or I. " what the fuck are you on about? Who does have a say where our taxes go but we all have an opinion/moan about it don't we? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? without being resident being an EU citizen makes no difference, you still can't vote. But I can give opinions on the EU and on where my taxes should go As I said, you are in no position to question the Spanish government on how they spend their tax income, your opinion means nothing to them same as it doesn't mean anything to them when a Spanish Citizen who is a millionaire pays considerably more in Spanish taxes than you or I. what the fuck are you on about? Who does have a say where our taxes go but we all have an opinion/moan about it don't we?" Calm down.... | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? without being resident being an EU citizen makes no difference, you still can't vote. But I can give opinions on the EU and on where my taxes should go As I said, you are in no position to question the Spanish government on how they spend their tax income, your opinion means nothing to them same as it doesn't mean anything to them when a Spanish Citizen who is a millionaire pays considerably more in Spanish taxes than you or I. what the fuck are you on about? Who does have a say where our taxes go but we all have an opinion/moan about it don't we? Calm down...." well what a stupid statement. Do you think your opinion matters to the UK government? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain Even Spanish nationals get no say on how tax income is spent by the Spanish government so good luck with that..... you are missing the point. Some of it goes to the EU so why wouldn't I still want a say on the EU I thought you had already had your say on it? How many says do you want? After we leave the EU and you are no longer an EU citizen, will you still get to vote in Spain? without being resident being an EU citizen makes no difference, you still can't vote. But I can give opinions on the EU and on where my taxes should go As I said, you are in no position to question the Spanish government on how they spend their tax income, your opinion means nothing to them same as it doesn't mean anything to them when a Spanish Citizen who is a millionaire pays considerably more in Spanish taxes than you or I. what the fuck are you on about? Who does have a say where our taxes go but we all have an opinion/moan about it don't we? Calm down...." Your words in your post......"and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax" | |||
| |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax"Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them. | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them. "You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle. And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them.
You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle.
And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me"Why would it make a difference if the foreigners are in the UK or Spain? Surely immigrants are immigrants and use the same services? I suppose one key difference would be if one set of immigrants were young fit and healthy, and another set were older retirees who would put a much greater strain on local health services. | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them.
You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle.
And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me
Why would it make a difference if the foreigners are in the UK or Spain? Surely immigrants are immigrants and use the same services?
I suppose one key difference would be if one set of immigrants were young fit and healthy, and another set were older retirees who would put a much greater strain on local health services."Maybe you should check out the 'strain' on Spanish health services. There isn't one and the UK government help to keep doctors and nurses in work there do they not? You really can't see beyond the end of your nose can you? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them.
You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle.
And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me
Why would it make a difference if the foreigners are in the UK or Spain? Surely immigrants are immigrants and use the same services?
I suppose one key difference would be if one set of immigrants were young fit and healthy, and another set were older retirees who would put a much greater strain on local health services.
Maybe you should check out the 'strain' on Spanish health services. There isn't one and the UK government help to keep doctors and nurses in work there do they not? You really can't see beyond the end of your nose can you?"Wow, Spain sounds like a magical place
With regards to you investing in Spain, you really think that we should be happy about you taking money out of the British economy? | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them.
You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle.
And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me
Why would it make a difference if the foreigners are in the UK or Spain? Surely immigrants are immigrants and use the same services?
I suppose one key difference would be if one set of immigrants were young fit and healthy, and another set were older retirees who would put a much greater strain on local health services.
Maybe you should check out the 'strain' on Spanish health services. There isn't one and the UK government help to keep doctors and nurses in work there do they not? You really can't see beyond the end of your nose can you?
Wow, Spain sounds like a magical place
With regards to you investing in Spain, you really think that we should be happy about you taking money out of the British economy? "The EU does doesn't it?
and as its an investment for my son, who knows where the money will end up when I'm gone | |||
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" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them.
You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle.
And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me
Why would it make a difference if the foreigners are in the UK or Spain? Surely immigrants are immigrants and use the same services?
I suppose one key difference would be if one set of immigrants were young fit and healthy, and another set were older retirees who would put a much greater strain on local health services.
Maybe you should check out the 'strain' on Spanish health services. There isn't one and the UK government help to keep doctors and nurses in work there do they not? You really can't see beyond the end of your nose can you?
Wow, Spain sounds like a magical place
With regards to you investing in Spain, you really think that we should be happy about you taking money out of the British economy?
The EU does doesn't it?
and as its an investment for my son, who knows where the money will end up when I'm gone "I thought you were against the EU doing that, or foreign workers doing that, so why is it ok if you do exactly the same? I would prefer not to bring your children into the debate. | |||
" I do. The EU defence fund is just another way for the corrupt greedy bastards to line their pockets at taxpayers expense Well considering we are leaving, something you seem quite happy about, why do you think we should have any say in how the EU defends it's self or how it spends it's money? In fact considering that we are leaving the EU why should we even want a say in anything the EU does from now on? Like I said, its nothing to do with how it defends itself, its just another money making exercise and when we've left I will still want a say on the waste because I also pay tax in Spain But when you are in Spain, you're a foreigner, so you must take more out than you put in, right? Or does that just apply to foreigners in the UK, I can never remember?
Wrong. What do I take out? When people go on holiday, as foreigners, do they take more out than they put in? Do you ever think anything through before you try to have a dig?
Ever heard of health tourism and benefit tourism?
Do you want to explain that one?
Ask the daily mail, they'll explain it for you
Why, what does it say in there?
Oh it says loads.
about health tourism and benefit tourism in Spain? I doubt it. I'd like to see you claim healthcare in Spain after 3 months if you've not paid into their system. And benefits? You've no chance
I thought all foreigners took more in benefits and from the health system than they put in, right? And if you're not a resident, what taxes are you paying?
Why, who said all foreigners took out more than they put in? Not trying to twist things are you by any chance?
What taxes am I paying? Not that it has anything to do with you but for a start when you own a property you pay local taxes, ie rates and a national tax as a non resident, a sort of income tax
Many many people have said that on this very forum, about the strain that foreigners put on the local services. Another strain that they talk about is on housing, so if you have a house there, is that then a house that a local Spanish person can't live in? If lots of people do that it must put an awful strain on housing for them.
You know that they were talking about this country, so stop trying to twist it. If any country had the sudden influx that we have had over recent years services would struggle.
And you obviously know nothing of the property situation in Spain. In many areas prices have halved and plenty are empty. I love the country and the people so I chose to invest there to help with their economy in my own little way. Shoot me
Why would it make a difference if the foreigners are in the UK or Spain? Surely immigrants are immigrants and use the same services?
I suppose one key difference would be if one set of immigrants were young fit and healthy, and another set were older retirees who would put a much greater strain on local health services.
Maybe you should check out the 'strain' on Spanish health services. There isn't one and the UK government help to keep doctors and nurses in work there do they not? You really can't see beyond the end of your nose can you?
Wow, Spain sounds like a magical place
With regards to you investing in Spain, you really think that we should be happy about you taking money out of the British economy?
The EU does doesn't it?
and as its an investment for my son, who knows where the money will end up when I'm gone
I thought you were against the EU doing that, or foreign workers doing that, so why is it ok if you do exactly the same? I would prefer not to bring your children into the debate. "nope, I couldn't give a fuck what foreign workers do with money that they've earned. Mass immigration is another matter. Now I have to go, go twist things with someone else | |||
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"Back to Basics ! No we shouldn't sell Arms to Saudia Arabia !!! But as I said earlier I would sell them to Any Country ! Just make our own to defend ourselves ! " What about bullet proof vests? Barbed wire? Handcuffs? | |||
"That's actually a very valid point and one worthy of its own thread......Should Britain abandon it's policy of fighting wars overseas and change instead to a defence force?" we currently have a "defence force " not an army any armed force bellow 80k strength is considered as such and ours us shrinking | |||
"That's actually a very valid point and one worthy of its own thread......Should Britain abandon it's policy of fighting wars overseas and change instead to a defence force?we currently have a "defence force " not an army any armed force bellow 80k strength is considered as such and ours us shrinking " Yet we are not geared towards territorial defence of the British isles in any way. | |||
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"Said it before ! No country should sell arms to another country "But what about bullet proof vests? A refueling plane? An unarmed helicopter? A radar system? | |||
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