FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Why are we British so opposed to ID cards? Discus.
Why are we British so opposed to ID cards? Discus.
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Reading the NHS debate and watching it develop I find myself asking: "What is the objection to ID cards?"
To start off this debate I will say that I am in favour of compulsory ID cards that we should all have to carry at all times. And that we should have to produce them to access any central or local government services, or on demand to any police officer in uniform. I would point out that most of us already have ID cards and that failure to produce them on demand can result in arrest to verify ID or seizure of car/motorcycle/van or both (driving licence photo ID card).
So given that the majority of us already carry ID cards why not have a national ID card and make them work for all of us? |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
Simply because having lived most of my life in London before my move to the Southwest I've witnessed first hand how the Metropolitan Police already racially profile a section of our society, and are increasingly religiously profiling other British citizens.
I've also personally experienced how too much power afforded to the Home Office can lend itself to abuse.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Simply because having lived most of my life in London before my move to the Southwest I've witnessed first hand how the Metropolitan Police already racially profile a section of our society, and are increasingly religiously profiling other British citizens.
I've also personally experienced how too much power afforded to the Home Office can lend itself to abuse.
"
give examples
I still have no problem with introduction of ID cards, absolutely nothing to hide here |
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"Simply because having lived most of my life in London before my move to the Southwest I've witnessed first hand how the Metropolitan Police already racially profile a section of our society, and are increasingly religiously profiling other British citizens.
I've also personally experienced how too much power afforded to the Home Office can lend itself to abuse.
"
Interesting,
I have a couple of questions for you...
Firstly, why do you think that the compulsory carrying of ID cards will adversely effect anyone targeted by police? To my way of thinking if I were being targeted by police having an ID card would reduce the amount of my time being taken up by police checks. Secondly, why are you opposed to profiling, be it racial, religious, age or dress type? Again on a personal level I want more profiling. In fact if I lived in an area where there was a football club and on match days/nights people dressed as football supporters were running riot I would be demanding that the police targeted football supporters! The same goes for any group! The idea that if you are part of a group that has a disproportionate criminal element in an area that you should not be targeted by police if your part of a minority is not just wrong it is offensive and disgusting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I would say I.D cards could be a beneficial thing for Britain, especially in regards to our welfare state.
The issues are about how they are used and how their usage would be implemented.
Not keen on police stop and search and using lack of I.D card as a precursor of arrest upon suspicion - mainly cause of the possibility of racial profiling, and also because quite frankly I never carry mine - never need to I have my driving licence national insurance number for I.D purposes.
Basically if you wish to access a part of the welfare state or the NHS, or go for a job interview, you should have your I.D card then, or your nation's I.D card. The exception beijing emergency services and childbirth ect, I don't think any nurse or doctor would even remember to ask for an I.D card with a crying or screaming person infront of them. |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Simply because having lived most of my life in London before my move to the Southwest I've witnessed first hand how the Metropolitan Police already racially profile a section of our society, and are increasingly religiously profiling other British citizens.
I've also personally experienced how too much power afforded to the Home Office can lend itself to abuse.
give examples
I still have no problem with introduction of ID cards, absolutely nothing to hide here"
I feel no need to give examples, I've always opposed ID cards in this country and nothing will change my mind on that.
I have no wish to be stopped for absolutely no reason and questioned, and compulsory carrying of ID cards simply gives the police the perfect excuse to do exactly that....not for me thanks.
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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
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"
Not keen on police stop and search and using lack of I.D card as a precursor of arrest upon suspicion - mainly cause of the possibility of racial profiling, and also because quite frankly I never carry mine - never need to I have my driving licence national insurance number for I.D purposes.
"
Now that shows how badly informed many (or probably most) are.
Fact is if you are stopped by a police officer and you fail to identify yourself to the officers satisfaction then the officer has the power to arrest you for the purpose confirming your identity.
Therefore your reason for opposing ID cards is that it would give the police powers of arrest they already have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Not keen on police stop and search and using lack of I.D card as a precursor of arrest upon suspicion - mainly cause of the possibility of racial profiling, and also because quite frankly I never carry mine - never need to I have my driving licence national insurance number for I.D purposes.
Now that shows how badly informed many (or probably most) are.
Fact is if you are stopped by a police officer and you fail to identify yourself to the officers satisfaction then the officer has the power to arrest you for the purpose confirming your identity.
Therefore your reason for opposing ID cards is that it would give the police powers of arrest they already have."
The fact is as another user has said, we live in a free and western country. If it becomes policy for not carrying an I.D card and sadly being stopped and searched at the same time as not having it, therefore warranting an arrest, then quite frankly we step towards looking like a police state. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
"
.
You have that power regardless of whether your carrying an Id card or not..... It's what you have to identify yourself for is the problem of concern |
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"I have no wish to be stopped for absolutely no reason and questioned, and compulsory carrying of ID cards simply gives the police the perfect excuse to do exactly that....not for me thanks."
The police never stop people without reason, they have better things to do with their time. If the police were to set up ID check points it would be for good reason, like the City of London VCP's on the roads into the city after the City of London bombings. Or are you are saying that our police should be totally reactive and do nothing to target criminals and reduce crime?
"Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
"
You are not a free man, your freedom is restricted by law, and as I have already said the police have the right to demand that anyone in the UK identifies themselves to the satisfaction of the police at any time, and if you fail to identify yourself they already have the power to arrest you. At the moment it is up to the police to define what is satisfactory identification. Having national ID cards would restrict the powers they already have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The police don't have the power to stop anyone without reason!... If they pull your car up they need a reason to pull it up, hello sir your tail light is out, you jumped the give way etc etc... Can I see your id Oh while your here, I smell alcohol, blow into this! ... That's legal.
.
Hello sir I've just seen you pull out of the pub car park id like you to blow into this and produce Id is illegal |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's always been illegal not to give the police your Id when required.
The carrying of an Id card has never been mandatory though, that's the only difference |
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I think you've already answered it in your opening post, there's no need for another(costly) layer of bureaucracy when a name dob and address is enough for police council wardens and the NHS to establish identity. |
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"The police don't have the power to stop anyone without reason!... If they pull your car up they need a reason to pull it up, hello sir your tail light is out, you jumped the give way etc etc... Can I see your id Oh while your here, I smell alcohol, blow into this! ... That's legal.
.
Hello sir I've just seen you pull out of the pub car park id like you to blow into this and produce Id is illegal"
Something ambiguous such as an erratic driving style or appearance of being under the influence of alcohol or drugs is enough, and how do you define erratic or the appearance of? |
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My reasons against these cards world be
1) cost. It would cost billions, and we works be lucky if the government kept on budget. I'm trying to lower my taxes not raise them.
2) it would create fraud, so I'd be paying to prosecute and jail people through my tax money. For a crime regard at the moment does not exist. No thanks.
3) convineice, if I'm nipping to the shops or even going to a swingers party. Lol, it's another thing I'll have to remember to carry on pain of arrest. No thanks.
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"The police don't have the power to stop anyone without reason!... If they pull your car up they need a reason to pull it up, hello sir your tail light is out, you jumped the give way etc etc... Can I see your id Oh while your here, I smell alcohol, blow into this! ... That's legal.
.
Hello sir I've just seen you pull out of the pub car park id like you to blow into this and produce Id is illegal"
This thread is not about the road traffic act and powers to stop vehicles. Maybe it was poor judgement on my part to mention the photo ID driving licence, but what is done is done.
What this thread is about it the deep suspicion that British people have regarding ID cards, profiling, and misuse/abuse of power. And how misinformed people are when it comes to identifying oneself to the police, and police powers when police are not satisfied with the identity given.
My position is that the compulsory carrying of national ID cards would only harm criminal, that profiling targets scarce resources against criminals and that the only people to gain from not having ID cards and profiling are criminals. Further that regardless of profiling or ID cards those within the police who corrupt their public offices for racist or bigoted reasons can and do that already within the existing laws of the land. Therefore any claim that ID cards would facilitate racism or bigotry are false. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The police don't have the power to stop anyone without reason!... If they pull your car up they need a reason to pull it up, hello sir your tail light is out, you jumped the give way etc etc... Can I see your id Oh while your here, I smell alcohol, blow into this! ... That's legal.
.
Hello sir I've just seen you pull out of the pub car park id like you to blow into this and produce Id is illegal
Something ambiguous such as an erratic driving style or appearance of being under the influence of alcohol or drugs is enough, and how do you define erratic or the appearance of?"
.
Thats always been the bone of contention..... However modern technology like cameras does give you a slight advantage |
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I want to tell you a story. There's this bloke, and he's Irish and he's Jewish and he's Pakistani and he's stupid and he's lost his teeth .....and all his h-, all his hair fell out ...and his legs fell off...his, his, his cock got sliced off by a lawn mower...he said, "I'm not feeling too well."And this black bloke came round and said to him, ..... "If you're not feeling well,..... you should see how I'm feeling!" |
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As a white bloke of 57 I have never been stopped by the police mainly because I have been going about my lawful business as a good citizen should..
even when i used to as a younger person in the 'bad old days' attend football matches..
and most of my youth and working life has been in Liverpool and South London..
I wonder how many black guys of the same age having lived the same sort of lifestyle have also never been stopped..
actually I can relate that several mates who are black have been stopped on numerous occasions, all work colleagues and often it was only when they said I'm a firefighter that the attitude changed..
this is not a dig at the police whom I currently have family serving in just that the reality is that a minority have abused their position historically..
any ID card would be just another excuse for lazy policing..
Criminals have access now to forged passports etc so it wouldn't be long till it occurred with ID cards..
the resources that would be used on such a scheme would be more effectively used with the relevant agencies who protect us from the bad people, not as a way of the state having some blanket system which would be ineffective in doing so and costly to the point where there would be a further reduction in that most fundamental tool of intelligence gathering, assurance and crime prevention..
more police properly resourced where needed..
I have nothing to hide either..
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"I have no wish to be stopped for absolutely no reason and questioned, and compulsory carrying of ID cards simply gives the police the perfect excuse to do exactly that....not for me thanks.
The police never stop people without reason, they have better things to do with their time. If the police were to set up ID check points it would be for good reason, like the City of London VCP's on the roads into the city after the City of London bombings. Or are you are saying that our police should be totally reactive and do nothing to target criminals and reduce crime?
Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
You are not a free man, your freedom is restricted by law, and as I have already said the police have the right to demand that anyone in the UK identifies themselves to the satisfaction of the police at any time, and if you fail to identify yourself they already have the power to arrest you. At the moment it is up to the police to define what is satisfactory identification. Having national ID cards would restrict the powers they already have."
Im absolutely amazed that you really believe that the police never stop anyone without reason.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have no wish to be stopped for absolutely no reason and questioned, and compulsory carrying of ID cards simply gives the police the perfect excuse to do exactly that....not for me thanks.
The police never stop people without reason, they have better things to do with their time. If the police were to set up ID check points it would be for good reason, like the City of London VCP's on the roads into the city after the City of London bombings. Or are you are saying that our police should be totally reactive and do nothing to target criminals and reduce crime?
Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
You are not a free man, your freedom is restricted by law, and as I have already said the police have the right to demand that anyone in the UK identifies themselves to the satisfaction of the police at any time, and if you fail to identify yourself they already have the power to arrest you. At the moment it is up to the police to define what is satisfactory identification. Having national ID cards would restrict the powers they already have.
Im absolutely amazed that you really believe that the police never stop anyone without reason...."
Perhaps you simply have a suspicious look about you
Us law abiding citizen's can walk freely without getting pulled up 
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"The police don't have the power to stop anyone without reason!... If they pull your car up they need a reason to pull it up, hello sir your tail light is out, you jumped the give way etc etc... Can I see your id Oh while your here, I smell alcohol, blow into this! ... That's legal.
.
Hello sir I've just seen you pull out of the pub car park id like you to blow into this and produce Id is illegal"
Their only reason needs to be suspicion that an offence has been or is being carried out.....The Home Office call it 'Reasonable grounds'.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So if as a citizen and you don't have anything to hide why should you be forced into carrying an I'D card ??
I have carried an I'D card all my working life. I can see no benifit of carrying a state card and again I agree with a previous poster why spend billions on cards to recoup a few quid for the NHS
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"I have no wish to be stopped for absolutely no reason and questioned, and compulsory carrying of ID cards simply gives the police the perfect excuse to do exactly that....not for me thanks.
The police never stop people without reason, they have better things to do with their time. If the police were to set up ID check points it would be for good reason, like the City of London VCP's on the roads into the city after the City of London bombings. Or are you are saying that our police should be totally reactive and do nothing to target criminals and reduce crime?
Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
You are not a free man, your freedom is restricted by law, and as I have already said the police have the right to demand that anyone in the UK identifies themselves to the satisfaction of the police at any time, and if you fail to identify yourself they already have the power to arrest you. At the moment it is up to the police to define what is satisfactory identification. Having national ID cards would restrict the powers they already have.
Im absolutely amazed that you really believe that the police never stop anyone without reason....
Perhaps you simply have a suspicious look about you
Us law abiding citizen's can walk freely without getting pulled up
"
You seem to be following my every post around to say something sarcastic.....thats not debate, it's petty. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So if as a citizen and you don't have anything to hide why should you be forced into carrying an I'D card ??
I have carried an I'D card all my working life. I can see no benifit of carrying a state card and again I agree with a previous poster why spend billions on cards to recoup a few quid for the NHS
"
2 billion loss at last count for NHS that's one hell of a lot of "few quids" |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
I've been stopped three times in the last fifteen years whilst driving my car, the first was absolutely correct as I was driving well over the speed limit and deserved my Three points and fine......the other Two times I can only put down to car envy  |
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"Im absolutely amazed that you really believe that the police never stop anyone without reason...."
I'm absolutely amazed that you think any police officer would stop anyone without a reason.
I accept that those that are racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic or in any way bigoted will use any powers they have to discriminate and target the objects of their hate. However all the above are reasons. Not acceptable reasons, but reasons still.
Fact is no one makes work for themselves the sake of making work for themselves.
Regardless of perceptions certain offences certain offences are committed more by certain groups people and as such it is fair for those groups to be targeted, be it single males driving slowly round red light districts or groups of hooded young men on mountain bikes loitering on street corners in areas where there are many drug users.
If you dress like a gangster, be it a fashion statement or not you have to accept that you will attract police attention, if you then frequent the same places as gangsters you have to accept that that attention will become closer, if you then start acting in the same way as gangsters you have to accept you will get treated the same way as gangsters.
Sorry if this upsets some but its a very basic truth. |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I repeat holding an Id card or not doesn't bother me in the slightest!....I already have a police file held on me by the met office despite never being formally arrested!!.
It's those powers and who has access to them that bothers me |
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this."
What you describe was and is wrong, but ridicule? How?
And I don't see how carrying an ID card would make any difference to how police target people. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Most of the time I'm out and about in my van or not far from it and carry my license in there so always have ID
I don't have any problem with the copper asking to see it  |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
We have spent a lot of time in A&E over the last couple of years... never once seen any NHS staff ask for ID, passports, proof of residency, EHIC cards, etc....
These kinds of questions and requirements are standard in EU countries.... so why not here?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A olos problem with id cards is that all governments is notorious for big projects that go tits up, massivly over budget, and on many occasions they fail totally. With the added problem of forgeries being bashed out. |
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this."
I fail to see how this is relevant to carrying of id cards .
It was my understanding that if the police stopped someone they had to log it in their log book and the reason for stopping the person concerned .
If officers were regularly abusing their power I though that this would become readily apparent .
The inroduction of body cameras on police officers may ensure additional monitoring of issues such as these. |
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this. I fail to see how this is relevant to carrying of id cards .
It was my understanding that if the police stopped someone they had to log it in their log book and the reason for stopping the person concerned .
If officers were regularly abusing their power I though that this would become readily apparent .
The inroduction of body cameras on police officers may ensure additional monitoring of issues such as these. "
how naïve are you?
have to log it in their notebooks, its done after the event not during and you can bet your bottom euro that there have and will be occasions when it hasn't happened or the report differs from the reality..
yes a minority but if that's you on the other end of a wrongful arrest..
the body cams are a good idea but they have to be switched on physically which given the nature of the job wont be the first IA of the officers and it also allows for them to be ignored..
some forces have historically abused their power at a corporate end endemic level, South Yorkshire ring any bells..
West Mids serious crime squad..
SPG..
Met vice squad..
again a minority in relation to how many we have who do a very difficult job but again if you were or may be impacted by such then that's not good at all.. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"My reasons against these cards world be
1) cost. It would cost billions, and we works be lucky if the government kept on budget. I'm trying to lower my taxes not raise them.
2) it would create fraud, so I'd be paying to prosecute and jail people through my tax money. For a crime regard at the moment does not exist. No thanks.
3) convineice, if I'm nipping to the shops or even going to a swingers party. Lol, it's another thing I'll have to remember to carry on pain of arrest. No thanks.
"
I am a free man(well TV)I am not a number,we carry driving licences,are cars are all on computers,everything we put on computers can be traced,in this day and age ID cars are obsolete.
Oh forgot bank cards and know doubt there is more we are tapped from cradle to the grave.It is scary |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A olos problem with id cards is that all governments is notorious for big projects that go tits up, massivly over budget, and on many occasions they fail totally. With the added problem of forgeries being bashed out. "
Nail on the head
The forgeries is an important issue, I can just see the marked rise in fraudulent I.D cards and the amount of extra effort to police them. |
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this. I fail to see how this is relevant to carrying of id cards .
It was my understanding that if the police stopped someone they had to log it in their log book and the reason for stopping the person concerned .
If officers were regularly abusing their power I though that this would become readily apparent .
The inroduction of body cameras on police officers may ensure additional monitoring of issues such as these.
how naïve are you?
have to log it in their notebooks, its done after the event not during and you can bet your bottom euro that there have and will be occasions when it hasn't happened or the report differs from the reality..
yes a minority but if that's you on the other end of a wrongful arrest..
the body cams are a good idea but they have to be switched on physically which given the nature of the job wont be the first IA of the officers and it also allows for them to be ignored..
some forces have historically abused their power at a corporate end endemic level, South Yorkshire ring any bells..
West Mids serious crime squad..
SPG..
Met vice squad..
again a minority in relation to how many we have who do a very difficult job but again if you were or may be impacted by such then that's not good at all.. "
With reference to your first point I would suspect that my knowledge of police procedures and the various remedies available for misconduct including civil proceedings in either the county or high court is probably above average . |
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this. I fail to see how this is relevant to carrying of id cards .
It was my understanding that if the police stopped someone they had to log it in their log book and the reason for stopping the person concerned .
If officers were regularly abusing their power I though that this would become readily apparent .
The inroduction of body cameras on police officers may ensure additional monitoring of issues such as these.
how naïve are you?
have to log it in their notebooks, its done after the event not during and you can bet your bottom euro that there have and will be occasions when it hasn't happened or the report differs from the reality..
yes a minority but if that's you on the other end of a wrongful arrest..
the body cams are a good idea but they have to be switched on physically which given the nature of the job wont be the first IA of the officers and it also allows for them to be ignored..
some forces have historically abused their power at a corporate end endemic level, South Yorkshire ring any bells..
West Mids serious crime squad..
SPG..
Met vice squad..
again a minority in relation to how many we have who do a very difficult job but again if you were or may be impacted by such then that's not good at all.. With reference to your first point I would suspect that my knowledge of police procedures and the various remedies available for misconduct including civil proceedings in either the county or high court is probably above average ."
then how do you align that with your earlier points which are naïve..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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there is already far far too much intrusion into out lives by the state. those in favour of ID cards and a police state would clearly be better suited to life in north korea, mayanmar or some other place where their paranoia would be better catered for
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"there is already far far too much intrusion into out lives by the state. those in favour of ID cards and a police state would clearly be better suited to life in north korea, mayanmar or some other place where their paranoia would be better catered for
"
Too much intrusion. ? I think we need some of this so called intrusion in order to prevent fraud and crime. There is a fine distinction betweem preventing crime and privacy .
If the government nèed certain information in order to either prevent crime or ensure that all taxes are paid , what is there to worry about . ? |
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As others have said nearly everyone already carries ID - driving licence etc. The cost of the additional national ID would be pretty steep and not sure there would really be enough benefits from it. Criminals would probably just get hold of forged or stolen cards so it might not help with those problems either. |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
My worry is where will it all end?, what may seem an acceptable limit to how these powers may be used today, may well not seem at all acceptable a few years down the road when ID cards may well be used for something far more intrusive and unacceptable. |
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"there is already far far too much intrusion into out lives by the state. those in favour of ID cards and a police state would clearly be better suited to life in north korea, mayanmar or some other place where their paranoia would be better catered for
"
We already live in a police state. For those who believe we are free and not numbers how do you equate that belief with the need to have a national insurance number to work or claim benefits? Or having an NHS number attached to your medical records? Or your DES education number issued when you started school? Or you military, police, fire service number if you serve in any of the services? Or civil service number? How about your security service number if you ever work anywhere that requires signing the Official Secrets Act or requires security vetting? Then there is your driver number issued as soon as you apply for a driving licence, and lets not forget your passport number if you ever want to travel outside the UK.
I would suggest that anyone who thinks they are not a number is delusional. And that having accepted that we are all subject to close scrutiny all our lives we may as well gain some sort of benefit from it all and lets have a single ID card where our driving entitlement etc can be recorded and we can all quickly prove our identity when required to do so. |
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having a pay roll number so ones salary is paid into ones account (numbered for ease of doing so)is hardly indicative of a police state..
hardly makes it North Korea does it..
its a very tenuous and false analogy to make to try and say because one has such a number that one should also have a compulsory ID card.. |
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" ...And that having accepted that we are all subject to close scrutiny all our lives we may as well gain some sort of benefit from it all and lets have a single ID card where our driving entitlement etc can be recorded and we can all quickly prove our identity when required to do so."
But it's all checkable and provable with two squarks over a police radio, why the need for another layer? |
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"having a pay roll number so ones salary is paid into ones account (numbered for ease of doing so)is hardly indicative of a police state..
hardly makes it North Korea does it..
its a very tenuous and false analogy to make to try and say because one has such a number that one should also have a compulsory ID card.. "
Actually I only named official non criminal records all of which are numbered. I could have added Criminal and DNA records if convicted of criminal offence or if you have been part of a serious criminal investigation or are a know associate of a criminal.
Further I would suggest that although we definitely are not a repressive police state like North Korea there is the potential for that without any need for major change in information stored by the state.
I would suggest that we acknowledge this and not only accept this but embrace it and make it work for us. Having a universal ID card would make accessing information much easier and be a boon for us all. |
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"having a pay roll number so ones salary is paid into ones account (numbered for ease of doing so)is hardly indicative of a police state..
hardly makes it North Korea does it..
its a very tenuous and false analogy to make to try and say because one has such a number that one should also have a compulsory ID card..
Actually I only named official non criminal records all of which are numbered. I could have added Criminal and DNA records if convicted of criminal offence or if you have been part of a serious criminal investigation or are a know associate of a criminal.
Further I would suggest that although we definitely are not a repressive police state like North Korea there is the potential for that without any need for major change in information stored by the state.
I would suggest that we acknowledge this and not only accept this but embrace it and make it work for us. Having a universal ID card would make accessing information much easier and be a boon for us all."
feel free to acknowledge away..
will stay with my own mindset ta..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this."
whats the saying again?
If you run with the crows, expect to get shot with the crows |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My worry is where will it all end?, what may seem an acceptable limit to how these powers may be used today, may well not seem at all acceptable a few years down the road when ID cards may well be used for something far more intrusive and unacceptable."
indeed, where will it end, they might take all the guns away next, oh wait they already have for most of you.  |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"My worry is where will it all end?, what may seem an acceptable limit to how these powers may be used today, may well not seem at all acceptable a few years down the road when ID cards may well be used for something far more intrusive and unacceptable.
indeed, where will it end, they might take all the guns away next, oh wait they already have for most of you. "
Once again you are babbling......most of you?, what does that even mean? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My worry is where will it all end?, what may seem an acceptable limit to how these powers may be used today, may well not seem at all acceptable a few years down the road when ID cards may well be used for something far more intrusive and unacceptable.
indeed, where will it end, they might take all the guns away next, oh wait they already have for most of you.
Once again you are babbling......most of you?, what does that even mean?"
Means the majority of people in UK will never be permitted to own a firearm, whether it be rifle or shotgun and even less chance for hand gun that's what "most of you" means, some of us are permitted to carry.
The government & police have so many powers already that a little ID card should mean nothing |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this.
whats the saying again?
If you run with the crows, expect to get shot with the crows"
Run with the crowds?, you really are beginning to sound bigoted, most of these black friends of mine from Uni days are now in top positions in the City, Are you really this stupid, or are you just practicing? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The one fact of it is we do need a way of checking who is who when crimes are commited.
When a call goes out that a white guy knocked someone on the head and stole thier phone then the police are going to stop all white guys who fit the general discription.
If its a black thief then unfortunatly this is going to go the other way and then there are shouts of " it's because I'M black" ect and police brutality.
Sorry but it's a fact!
And yes in the past we have had problems but if people just stopped doing the crimes then eventually things would calm down (not going to happen by the way) 
Back to ID cards if someone went to buy something real expensive using you're ID anf it went through then it's in you're name.
Now imagine that they had to show instantly checkable ID on the national database bye chipped card and photo that comes up so the person can see that it's really you then less chance of happening.
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Actually; in UK;
A police officer may ask for your name;
You are not obliged to tell him/her unless the police officer tells you that you are being reported for an offence, or you are arrested.
The exception being that you are obliged to give your name to a police officer if you are stopped while driving. ( the driver only ) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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why not take this one or two steps futher,
How about we introduce DNA samples take from everyone in the country, and stored on a national data base.
How about every visitor to ythe country has to give a DNA sample upon entry to the country, and then when that visitor then leaves the DNA can be destroyed after a determined time.
Pretty radical I suppose and I expect some juicy comments back,although I have never said I believe this is what should happen its just another view.
I am also pretty sure that something like this will happen, maybe not in my lifetimne or even my kids, but 100 years from now we could all be in a Tom Cruise movie for real.
For the record I personally have no issues with ID cards, but the powers in charge would have to assure and also prove there could be no mis use......very hard to do.
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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
"Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
.
You have that power regardless of whether your carrying an Id card or not..... It's what you have to identify yourself for is the problem of concern"
There is no power of arrest unless the police officer has resonable grounds to be suspicious you are not who you say you are.
When driving a car a person has seven days to produce their driving licence.
If the details one gives the officer confirm the details of the car ownership no intelligent officer will sieze the car or try to arrest you |
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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
" We already live in a police state. For those who believe we are free and not numbers how do you equate that belief with the need to have a national insurance number to work or claim benefits? Or having an NHS number attached to your medical records? Or your DES education number issued when you started school? Or you military, police, fire service number if you serve in any of the services? Or civil service number? How about your security service number if you ever work anywhere that requires signing the Official Secrets Act or requires security vetting? Then there is your driver number issued as soon as you apply for a driving licence, and lets not forget your passport number if you ever want to travel outside the UK.
I would suggest that anyone who thinks they are not a number is delusional. And that having accepted that we are all subject to close scrutiny all our lives we may as well gain some sort of benefit from it all and lets have a single ID card where our driving entitlement etc can be recorded and we can all quickly prove our identity when required to do so."
It is you who is delusional all the scenarios you have mentioned above are to allow the individual to benefit in one form or another you have not mentioned one scenario which could not be legally avoided if one does not want to be part of it.
If a person wishes to live a self sufficient life without interacting with the state they can in the UK.
A person can work on their own plot of land growing their own food without any form of ID being required.
If one wishes to benefit from the NHS then that is different in a similar manner if one wishes to join one of the organisations you mention then they have to have some way to provide a unique identifier, that is common sense but if one does not wish to join such an organisation or indulge in state benefits there is now requirement to.
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"
If a person wishes to live a self sufficient life without interacting with the state they can in the UK."
Really?
Are you that naive?
Let me point out to you that it is a criminal offence not to register a birth in the UK, and as soon as your birth is registered you are in the system like it or not.
Further from once you reach the age of 18 you are required to register to vote, again it is a criminal offence not to. So the best you can say the UK state do not enforce the criminal law when people refuse to interact as required by law.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because I am a free man living in a democracy and see no need to identify myself to the authorities just because they want me to.
The next thing would be the requirement to have a number tattooed on my arm.
.
You have that power regardless of whether your carrying an Id card or not..... It's what you have to identify yourself for is the problem of concern
There is no power of arrest unless the police officer has resonable grounds to be suspicious you are not who you say you are.
When driving a car a person has seven days to produce their driving licence.
If the details one gives the officer confirm the details of the car ownership no intelligent officer will sieze the car or try to arrest you"
True as long as you are not doing anything wrong or as you said there is no resenable grounds for suspicion.
They already know who you should be as the car reg will bring up all the info they need like white or black male/female age and if the car has all of the docs needed and even a photo of you from the license database
So unless you are driving like a twat or there is a smell of /acohol coming from you or the car then a stop and check takes minuets.
The last time I got stopped in a spot check in London it took maybe mins at the most and was on my way
Without ID would have been longer |
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" Interesting,
I have a couple of questions for you...
Firstly, why do you think that the compulsory carrying of ID cards will adversely effect anyone targeted by police? To my way of thinking if I were being targeted by police having an ID card would reduce the amount of my time being taken up by police checks. Secondly, why are you opposed to profiling, be it racial, religious, age or dress type? Again on a personal level I want more profiling. In fact if I lived in an area where there was a football club and on match days/nights people dressed as football supporters were running riot I would be demanding that the police targeted football supporters! The same goes for any group! The idea that if you are part of a group that has a disproportionate criminal element in an area that you should not be targeted by police if your part of a minority is not just wrong it is offensive and disgusting."
Sorry, are you saying that certain races and religions have a more disproportionate criminal element? If so I think you've managed to demonstrate why I'D cards are a bad idea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Simpy because I do not want to pass more power to the authorities than I have to.
It is about keeping the balance.
Give the government an extra power. Is it ever repealed?
It is great to say, "I have nothing to fear."
Learn from history. We all have something to fear. It is called loss of liberty. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For me there's a practical element. I often leave the house without a bag or pockets... where would I keep it?
"
the pro-ID lobby would doubtless demand you keep it tattooed on your fore-arm or failing that, a bar-code on the back of your neck |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"For me there's a practical element. I often leave the house without a bag or pockets... where would I keep it?
the pro-ID lobby would doubtless demand you keep it tattooed on your fore-arm or failing that, a bar-code on the back of your neck "
In Bromley in South East London there is a well known guy nicknamed 'Bar-Code' because he has one tattooed on his neck, he once told me that he's getting ready for when everyone is forced to have one.....he's a real character |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's always been illegal not to give the police your Id when required.
The carrying of an Id card has never been mandatory though, that's the only difference"
Apart from in WWII of course. |
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"It's always been illegal not to give the police your Id when required.
The carrying of an Id card has never been mandatory though, that's the only difference
Apart from in WWII of course."
indeed and ( apart from wartime) it has never been (and still is not) illegal to refuse to give your identity. You guys really need to know your own laws |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's always been illegal not to give the police your Id when required.
The carrying of an Id card has never been mandatory though, that's the only difference
Apart from in WWII of course. indeed and ( apart from wartime) it has never been (and still is not) illegal to refuse to give your identity. You guys really need to know your own laws"
But all you will do is maleness things difficult for you're self in the end and would end up getting held up even more than nessasery |
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"It's always been illegal not to give the police your Id when required.
The carrying of an Id card has never been mandatory though, that's the only difference
Apart from in WWII of course. indeed and ( apart from wartime) it has never been (and still is not) illegal to refuse to give your identity. You guys really need to know your own laws
But all you will do is maleness things difficult for you're self in the end and would end up getting held up even more than nessasery "
Why?
( though I accept that as well-of white male I can tell a policeman to fuck off and he (she) will say "yes, sir" but if I was black I would probably be arrested) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm 46, and I've never had to carry ID. Because I was born in thee west, in a democracy where we were deemed to be free... Why should I have to remember to carry ID by law? Why should I be subject to punishment or sanctions for failing to carry ID? If I'm doing nothing wrong and am law abiding why should I be punished for not carrying a card? We're already the most surveilled nation on earth... Why should I have to prove who I am to a police officer on demand? Currently I only have to give my name, address and DOB if I am under control of a motor vehicle or have committed an arrestable offense, not at any other time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Reading the NHS debate and watching it develop I find myself asking: "What is the objection to ID cards?"
...
So given that the majority of us already carry ID cards why not have a national ID card and make them work for all of us?"
I'm not sure how an ID card would work for me?
It'd be a pain in the bum to have to carry it every time I went out, just another thing to hassle about. And what benefit would there be to me? It is true that I have a driving licence and a passport, the key is that I don't have to carry them and see no reason why I should.
The good guys would have valid ID, the bad guys fake. So what's the benefit?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I personally agree with ID cards. Don't agree with compulsory carry and arrest if not though. I just think they'd be a useful form of ID for those without drivers liscenses or passports |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm 46, and I've never had to carry ID. Because I was born in thee west, in a democracy where we were deemed to be free... Why should I have to remember to carry ID by law? Why should I be subject to punishment or sanctions for failing to carry ID? If I'm doing nothing wrong and am law abiding why should I be punished for not carrying a card? We're already the most surveilled nation on earth... Why should I have to prove who I am to a police officer on demand? Currently I only have to give my name, address and DOB if I am under control of a motor vehicle or have committed an arrestable offense, not at any other time. "
With an ID system that's all you would have to do as then they would have to do is look you up on the database and would come up with a picture of you |
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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
"
If a person wishes to live a self sufficient life without interacting with the state they can in the UK.
Really?
Are you that naive?
Let me point out to you that it is a criminal offence not to register a birth in the UK, and as soon as your birth is registered you are in the system like it or not.
Further from once you reach the age of 18 you are required to register to vote, again it is a criminal offence not to. So the best you can say the UK state do not enforce the criminal law when people refuse to interact as required by law.
"
Yes births have to be registered but a person is entitled to change their name whenever they please and do not have to inform the authorities they have changed their name.
As for your second point sorry but it is you who does not understand the law.
It is illegal for a person to refuse to give a registration officer their details but only if they have been asked for such details.
There are many thousands of individuals in the UK today who have never been asked for their details as the registration officer has not approached them asking for their details.
There are many reasons for this mainly due to the individual having an unconventional lifestyle.
Not all driving licences are photo licences many people still legally drive on the old green paper licence that does not contain a photo
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I personally agree with ID cards. Don't agree with compulsory carry and arrest if not though. I just think they'd be a useful form of ID for those without drivers liscenses or passports"
if you have nothing to hide there is no problem,
USA probably holds more information on us that visit, than our home UK country does, including holding fingerprints |
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Probably a bit late here as a long thread. I have lived in two countries with ID, one small country and Scandinavia. Belgiumsystem was clunky but so is police system there ...
Swedish system was great and the city I lived in had 25 % originating from third countries .IE non eu ones. Your bank card had your ID pic on it and person number. Without person number you could not access health care, borrow a library book, register for education. My hand bag fell off my cycle wagon and the price rang me to say they had my wallet...
In Belgium they would stop people to check for id as you really only needed it if legal...so if not legal... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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i forget my wallet,keys money etc all the time.
but as sure as eggs are eggs there will be a fine for not carrying one. sooner or later . and what about when we go on our naturist holidays ? lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You dont really need to carry a card as ypou're thumbprint is all thats needed a mobile scanner and you picy and name comes up.
Ah, so whose been a naughty swinger in the past then?
"
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"
Not keen on police stop and search and using lack of I.D card as a precursor of arrest upon suspicion - mainly cause of the possibility of racial profiling, and also because quite frankly I never carry mine - never need to I have my driving licence national insurance number for I.D purposes.
Now that shows how badly informed many (or probably most) are.
Fact is if you are stopped by a police officer and you fail to identify yourself to the officers satisfaction then the officer has the power to arrest you for the purpose confirming your identity.
Therefore your reason for opposing ID cards is that it would give the police powers of arrest they already have."
That's not correct. A police officer can not currently randomly stop you in the streets and insist that you identify yourself. He has to have reasonable believe that you either might have, or that you might be going to, commit an offence.
I can see some practical advantages in having a common ID card which is nationally accepted as a form of identification. However we already have two such things, they are called a driving licence and a passport, why do we need another. In the US they get around perfectly without the need for compulsory ID. You can even get what amounts to a non driver's driving license - it has all the ID checks required to obtain a driving license but doesn't give the holder the right to drive.
I also totally disagree with the idea that the police should be allowed to stop people, without probable cause, and insist they produce some document or card to say who they are. Why should they? If a person is doing no wrong then it's nobody's business who they are. |
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"The police don't have the power to stop anyone without reason!... If they pull your car up they need a reason to pull it up, hello sir your tail light is out, you jumped the give way etc etc... Can I see your id Oh while your here, I smell alcohol, blow into this! ... That's legal.
.
Hello sir I've just seen you pull out of the pub car park id like you to blow into this and produce Id is illegal"
this. |
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"Without going into too much detail all I can say is as a younger man in London I watched black mates stopped by the police on MANY occasions, even to the point where the white lads in a mixed group were allowed to walk on while the black lads were forced to stay behind and ridiculed.
And....it still goes on to this day.
So I can't agree with your opinion on this."
I've experienced similar as well. |
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"We have spent a lot of time in A&E over the last couple of years... never once seen any NHS staff ask for ID, passports, proof of residency, EHIC cards, etc....
These kinds of questions and requirements are standard in EU countries.... so why not here?
"
Maybe they should be. But with all those forms of ID that you mention that they could and probably should already ask for, how would having another possible one help. And if the person requiring treatment cannot produce satisfactory ID are the NHS staff meant to just leave them to possibly bleed out in the reception area? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We have spent a lot of time in A&E over the last couple of years... never once seen any NHS staff ask for ID, passports, proof of residency, EHIC cards, etc....
These kinds of questions and requirements are standard in EU countries.... so why not here?
Maybe they should be. But with all those forms of ID that you mention that they could and probably should already ask for, how would having another possible one help. And if the person requiring treatment cannot produce satisfactory ID are the NHS staff meant to just leave them to possibly bleed out in the reception area?"
No because anyone requiring EMERGENCY help would be treated on the spot.
What the problem has been is that people getting routine procedures i.e non emergency stuff on the NHS when not entitled. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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everybody already has an NHS health card with their details emblazened all over it including their NHS ID number ..... what makes people think having another card will make any difference whatsoever? |
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"everybody already has an NHS health card with their details emblazened all over it including their NHS ID number ..... what makes people think having another card will make any difference whatsoever?"
When have you ever seen one at docs? Certainly not like in Sweden |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"everybody already has an NHS health card with their details emblazened all over it including their NHS ID number ..... what makes people think having another card will make any difference whatsoever?
When have you ever seen one at docs? Certainly not like in Sweden"
Good point, I haven't needed my NHS card in 54 years! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So?
As an advanced first aider arriving on a incident scene;
should I first ask for I.D. before assisting, or put hands in pockets, whistle and say to myself, that person just don't look right, will just keep walking |
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"So?
As an advanced first aider arriving on a incident scene;
should I first ask for I.D. before assisting, or put hands in pockets, whistle and say to myself, that person just don't look right, will just keep walking"
Well that's pretty much up to you, but has nothing to do with whether a person who has no right to NHS treatment should be treated or not.
Reason: You work in the oil industry not for the NHS. |
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We have just stood by while the government (aided and abetted by Labour) have just passed the most authoritarian surveillance bill in the Western world. I've been dead against ID cards but Part of me thinks the discussion on ID cards has almost been sidelined by the new law. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We have spent a lot of time in A&E over the last couple of years... never once seen any NHS staff ask for ID, passports, proof of residency, EHIC cards, etc....
These kinds of questions and requirements are standard in EU countries.... so why not here?
Maybe they should be. But with all those forms of ID that you mention that they could and probably should already ask for, how would having another possible one help. And if the person requiring treatment cannot produce satisfactory ID are the NHS staff meant to just leave them to possibly bleed out in the reception area?
No because anyone requiring EMERGENCY help would be treated on the spot.
What the problem has been is that people getting routine procedures i.e non emergency stuff on the NHS when not entitled."
What makes someone entitled? |
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"So?
As an advanced first aider arriving on a incident scene;
should I first ask for I.D. before assisting, or put hands in pockets, whistle and say to myself, that person just don't look right, will just keep walking"
Nope. Have you been on holiday abroad to all the other countries where you need health insurance and noticed the streets piled with hit and run cases without insurance?
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