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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
Hard Brexit V Hard Remain
The country is split virtually 50/50 and yet we are slipping towards something called a hard brexit. This is something that was neither discussed, nor debated and indeed it is the exact opposite of the conservative manifesto on which they were elected.
The referendum was a narrow "Leave the EU" win by 52/48. Imagine if it were the other way around and "Remain in the EU" won by a narrow 52/48 majority following which the Govt prepared to adopt the Euro, full Shengen membership and ever closer union.
We know already that Farage said that he would not accept a narrow Remain victory but imagine the uproar if as a consequence of a narrow remain vote - the Govt went Hard Remain... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hard Brexit V Hard Remain
The country is split virtually 50/50 and yet we are slipping towards something called a hard brexit. This is something that was neither discussed, nor debated and indeed it is the exact opposite of the conservative manifesto on which they were elected.
The referendum was a narrow "Leave the EU" win by 52/48. Imagine if it were the other way around and "Remain in the EU" won by a narrow 52/48 majority following which the Govt prepared to adopt the Euro, full Shengen membership and ever closer union.
We know already that Farage said that he would not accept a narrow Remain victory but imagine the uproar if as a consequence of a narrow remain vote - the Govt went Hard Remain..."
the country is not split virtually 50 50 , my country voted by a sizable majority to stay in , no where near a 50 % split |
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"the country is not split virtually 50 50 , my country voted by a sizable majority to stay in , no where near a 50 % split"
I agree with this post but for a different reason. The country was split fairly equally in 3.
37% voted to leave.
34% voted to stay.
29% did not vote.
Neither side has the right to claim those 29% as default supporters, therefore the status quo should have prevailed. However that is not what is happening and we have to live with that. However any claim to a national majority is at best the rantings of a deluded minority and at worst a massive lie that is being used to railroad the majority! |
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"the country is not split virtually 50 50 , my country voted by a sizable majority to stay in , no where near a 50 % split
I agree with this post but for a different reason. The country was split fairly equally in 3.
37% voted to leave.
34% voted to stay.
29% did not vote.
Neither side has the right to claim those 29% as default supporters, therefore the status quo should have prevailed. However that is not what is happening and we have to live with that. However any claim to a national majority is at best the rantings of a deluded minority and at worst a massive lie that is being used to railroad the majority!"
Why do Remainers keep going on about the percentage of people who didn't vote? They didn't vote so they are frankly irrelevant to the discussion. They can't complain about the result, they had the chance to vote and they chose not to.
No one keeps bringing up the percentage of people who didn't vote in the general election or the Scottish referendum so why should the EU referendum be any different?
It just smacks of sour grapes on the Remainers part.
The country is not split 50/50, the result was 52/48 in favour of leave with a majority of over a million more votes for Leave than Remain got. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Hard Brexit V Hard Remain
The country is split virtually 50/50 and yet we are slipping towards something called a hard brexit. This is something that was neither discussed, nor debated and indeed it is the exact opposite of the conservative manifesto on which they were elected.
The referendum was a narrow "Leave the EU" win by 52/48. Imagine if it were the other way around and "Remain in the EU" won by a narrow 52/48 majority following which the Govt prepared to adopt the Euro, full Shengen membership and ever closer union.
We know already that Farage said that he would not accept a narrow Remain victory but imagine the uproar if as a consequence of a narrow remain vote - the Govt went Hard Remain..."
Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro  |
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"Why do Remainers keep going on about the percentage of people who didn't vote? They didn't vote so they are frankly irrelevant to the discussion. They can't complain about the result, they had the chance to vote and they chose not to. "
Because the convention that is usually applied to yes/no votes is that either there should be a minimum of 60% of votes cast required for change or 50%+1 of the total eligible to vote. This convention was ignored and now we all have to live with it!
"No one keeps bringing up the percentage of people who didn't vote in the general election or the Scottish referendum so why should the EU referendum be any different? "
Actually people do all the time! Many believe that everyone should be legally required to vote (just as they are to registrar to vote). Just as there are many of us who believe that we should have a system of proportional representation. however our political masters have a vested interest in keeping the status quo and taking it in turns to dictate policy to all because they manage to get around 25% of the population to vote for them.
"It just smacks of sour grapes on the Remainers part.
The country is not split 50/50, the result was 52/48 in favour of leave with a majority of over a million more votes for Leave than Remain got. "
You were on the winning side, I get that, I accept that I have to live with the consequences of that vote. I further accept that I will have to watch the slow-motion train crash that our country is now heading towards.
However I will not sit silent and let those who have caused this get away with telling me that being roundly fucked over and losing a large part of my wealth is good for me!
And if you consider that 'sour grapes' get ready to be fed super large portions every time we get a new dose of BREXIT reality.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!"
so adopting the Euro was a good idea for them? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Hard Brexit V Hard Remain
The country is split virtually 50/50 and yet we are slipping towards something called a hard brexit. This is something that was neither discussed, nor debated and indeed it is the exact opposite of the conservative manifesto on which they were elected.
The referendum was a narrow "Leave the EU" win by 52/48. Imagine if it were the other way around and "Remain in the EU" won by a narrow 52/48 majority following which the Govt prepared to adopt the Euro, full Shengen membership and ever closer union.
We know already that Farage said that he would not accept a narrow Remain victory but imagine the uproar if as a consequence of a narrow remain vote - the Govt went Hard Remain..."
Nigel Garage can go fook himself.
If the vote was to remain, we would have remained. As it was to leave, we will leave.
I am afraid that the terms "hard" and "soft" Brexit elude me. They are ambiguous. It is for the government to get the best deal possible. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!
so adopting the Euro was a good idea for them?"
Look what it did for grease  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!
so adopting the Euro was a good idea for them?
Look what it did for grease "
I blame the name change from Jif to Cif  |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!
so adopting the Euro was a good idea for them?
Look what it did for grease "
Grease is the time, is the place, is the motion
Grease is the way we are feeling  |
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"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!
so adopting the Euro was a good idea for them?
Look what it did for grease "
Everyone seems to think that the Euro was the cause of all Greece's problems. Patently it was not! Their problems are caused by having a tax system that does not work and an economy based on tourism where the population work 35 hrs a week and retire on a full state pension at 55. Of course the fact that US banks sold their banks worthless bundled mortgage bonds just acted as a catalyst when the bubble burst in 2008.
If Greece and the other Southern European economies had not had the protection of the Euro they would have been and still be bankrupt.
However that bit of reality does not fit with the US world view and the US controlled media outlets and many politicians that pander to that view in order to get media support and therefore is ignored. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!
so adopting the Euro was a good idea for them?
Look what it did for grease
Everyone seems to think that the Euro was the cause of all Greece's problems. Patently it was not! Their problems are caused by having a tax system that does not work and an economy based on tourism where the population work 35 hrs a week and retire on a full state pension at 55. Of course the fact that US banks sold their banks worthless bundled mortgage bonds just acted as a catalyst when the bubble burst in 2008.
If Greece and the other Southern European economies had not had the protection of the Euro they would have been and still be bankrupt.
However that bit of reality does not fit with the US world view and the US controlled media outlets and many politicians that pander to that view in order to get media support and therefore is ignored."
.
That's true but it's also true that Greece could never have borrowed that money without having their currency linked to Germanys.
.
They were borrowing at 3% !! the lowest in Greece's history |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis."
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Back to the original question, if we had voted to remain it would certainly have been a 'hard' remain. The EU would have taken it as a vote of confidence to carry out their stupid ideas and would have forced the government to toe the EU line through threats or whatever as they are doing now, in the confidence that there would not be another referendum. The only upside would be when the Euro collapses so will the EU so we wouldn't have had to remain for long |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis.
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it."
Sure, that is the figure the Treasury thinks the country will lose in tax revenues each year if we have a hard brexit (leave the Single Market) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis.
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it.
Sure, that is the figure the Treasury thinks the country will lose in tax revenues each year if we have a hard brexit (leave the Single Market)"
See previous post about economists forecasts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis.
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it.
Sure, that is the figure the Treasury thinks the country will lose in tax revenues each year if we have a hard brexit (leave the Single Market)"
No it doesn't it just says its possible. It doesn't paint an alternative picture does it. Why is that do you think? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis.
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it.
Sure, that is the figure the Treasury thinks the country will lose in tax revenues each year if we have a hard brexit (leave the Single Market)
See previous post about economists forecasts. "
And would you say the same thing if the same organisations said that we would be £66bn a year better off?
As I asked before, is your opinion that Brexit will be economically better off based on anything apart from pure hope and faith? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis.
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it.
Sure, that is the figure the Treasury thinks the country will lose in tax revenues each year if we have a hard brexit (leave the Single Market)
See previous post about economists forecasts.
And would you say the same thing if the same organisations said that we would be £66bn a year better off?
As I asked before, is your opinion that Brexit will be economically better off based on anything apart from pure hope and faith?"
As a long term forecast, I would be equally sceptical. Economists are notoriously untrustworthy when it comes to any long term prediction.
I knew a very bright lady who was an advisor to the treasury. Even she admitted that any prediction beyond 6 months was irrelevant.
Can you imagine how many imponderables go into that sort of equation?
You could just as easily come up with a £66 billion profit as a £66 billion loss.
You are putting your faith in one view espoused by "experts."
By the way, those experts were given an agenda upon which to base their forecast.
I have given you some very good examples of economists giving their expert opinions in the past. They were not great predictions, were they? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Or if Labour came into government and wanted to make £66bn of spending commitments (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, or a Conservative government wanted to make £66bn of tax cuts (each year) that weren’t in their manifesto, and both of them tried to do it without a vote in parliament. I can’t see that happening myself without causing a massive constitutional crisis.
Back to your £66 billion figure?
Please justify it.
Sure, that is the figure the Treasury thinks the country will lose in tax revenues each year if we have a hard brexit (leave the Single Market)
See previous post about economists forecasts.
And would you say the same thing if the same organisations said that we would be £66bn a year better off?
As I asked before, is your opinion that Brexit will be economically better off based on anything apart from pure hope and faith?
As a long term forecast, I would be equally sceptical. Economists are notoriously untrustworthy when it comes to any long term prediction.
I knew a very bright lady who was an advisor to the treasury. Even she admitted that any prediction beyond 6 months was irrelevant.
Can you imagine how many imponderables go into that sort of equation?
You could just as easily come up with a £66 billion profit as a £66 billion loss.
You are putting your faith in one view espoused by "experts."
By the way, those experts were given an agenda upon which to base their forecast.
I have given you some very good examples of economists giving their expert opinions in the past. They were not great predictions, were they?"
No, Im basing it on the IFS, PwC, NIESR, The Treasury, CEP, Oxford Economics and the LSE. Who are you basing your assessment on? |
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"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning."
May as well ask Mystic Meg what her prediction is for 15 years in the future for what it's worth.  |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning."
As the economy gets worse.... And worse.... And worse.... And worse
You don't believe the figures from the Treasury? You don't believe your own government? So why would you vote for more power for your government if you don't trust them?
What about all the other organisations that I mentioned and their forecasts? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning."
And it is still the position TODAY of Prime Minister May's Treasury - hence the leak.
In other words, the Treasury officials of the current sitting May Government are STILL of the opinion that this is an reasonable forecast to make if the Govt continues on its current path. |
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"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning.
As the economy gets worse.... And worse.... And worse.... And worse
You don't believe the figures from the Treasury? You don't believe your own government? So why would you vote for more power for your government if you don't trust them?
What about all the other organisations that I mentioned and their forecasts? "
What I'm saying is, you're describing it as a concrete figure as though it is an imminent required cut, this or next year.
But no, I don't believe it to be accurately predictable.
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom?"
I work alot in the United States and many of my colleagues ask me about this whole Brexit idea and very broadly the concensus follows the line of common sense.
"Why would you want to stop trading freely with your next door neighbours in the hope that you might be able to trade with someone else on the other side of the world. That's just dumb." |
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"
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom?
I work alot in the United States and many of my colleagues ask me about this whole Brexit idea and very broadly the concensus follows the line of common sense.
"Why would you want to stop trading freely with your next door neighbours in the hope that you might be able to trade with someone else on the other side of the world. That's just dumb.""
Ok that's an example of why you disagree with the idea of leaving.
What should be done to improve the impending doom? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom?
I work alot in the United States and many of my colleagues ask me about this whole Brexit idea and very broadly the concensus follows the line of common sense.
"Why would you want to stop trading freely with your next door neighbours in the hope that you might be able to trade with someone else on the other side of the world. That's just dumb."
Ok that's an example of why you disagree with the idea of leaving.
What should be done to improve the impending doom?"
Stay in the Single Market. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning."
Ah, a 15 year prediction from specialist economists who can't predict what will happen in a year. Yet the OP continues in the belief that a 15 year prediction is defendable.
Do you recall all those specialists predicting great gains from the sub prime market? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning.
Ah, a 15 year prediction from specialist economists who can't predict what will happen in a year. Yet the OP continues in the belief that a 15 year prediction is defendable.
Do you recall all those specialists predicting great gains from the sub prime market?"
So what do you want to do, scrap the Treasury?
So which organisations say that the economy will be better once we leave the Single Market? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning.
Ah, a 15 year prediction from specialist economists who can't predict what will happen in a year. Yet the OP continues in the belief that a 15 year prediction is defendable.
Do you recall all those specialists predicting great gains from the sub prime market?
So what do you want to do, scrap the Treasury?
So which organisations say that the economy will be better once we leave the Single Market? "
And what do you predict will happen with the EU? Have you even considered that it might be founded on a badly founded premise?
If you are so addicted to economics, can you tell me why shoring up countries with extreme economic difficulties is good for the rest of them?
Why tying them all into a Euro makes sense?
It all seems to make no sence to me.
But I am no economic expert. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning.
Ah, a 15 year prediction from specialist economists who can't predict what will happen in a year. Yet the OP continues in the belief that a 15 year prediction is defendable.
Do you recall all those specialists predicting great gains from the sub prime market?
So what do you want to do, scrap the Treasury?
So which organisations say that the economy will be better once we leave the Single Market?
And what do you predict will happen with the EU? Have you even considered that it might be founded on a badly founded premise?
If you are so addicted to economics, can you tell me why shoring up countries with extreme economic difficulties is good for the rest of them?
Why tying them all into a Euro makes sense?
It all seems to make no sence to me.
But I am no economic expert."
The EU will continue to evolve and will be as unrecognisable in 40 years time as it was 40 years ago. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning.
Ah, a 15 year prediction from specialist economists who can't predict what will happen in a year. Yet the OP continues in the belief that a 15 year prediction is defendable.
Do you recall all those specialists predicting great gains from the sub prime market?
So what do you want to do, scrap the Treasury?
So which organisations say that the economy will be better once we leave the Single Market?
And what do you predict will happen with the EU? Have you even considered that it might be founded on a badly founded premise?
If you are so addicted to economics, can you tell me why shoring up countries with extreme economic difficulties is good for the rest of them?
Why tying them all into a Euro makes sense?
It all seems to make no sence to me.
But I am no economic expert.
The EU will continue to evolve and will be as unrecognisable in 40 years time as it was 40 years ago. "
I doubt if it will exist in 40 years time.
It mght revert to what it was. A common market as opposed to a common Europe. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Remember the £66bn is a prediction for 15 years in the future.
Also it was produced for Osbournes remain campaigning.
As the economy gets worse.... And worse.... And worse.... And worse
You don't believe the figures from the Treasury? You don't believe your own government? So why would you vote for more power for your government if you don't trust them?
What about all the other organisations that I mentioned and their forecasts? "
how is the economy getting worse? |
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"Just imagine how fucked we would be if we had adopted the Euro
Just imagine how fucked Southern Europe would have been in 2008 had they not adopted the Euro!"
A lot less than they were the main problem of globalisation is that if one country gets a cold everybody does |
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"
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom?
I work alot in the United States and many of my colleagues ask me about this whole Brexit idea and very broadly the concensus follows the line of common sense.
"Why would you want to stop trading freely with your next door neighbours in the hope that you might be able to trade with someone else on the other side of the world. That's just dumb."
Ok that's an example of why you disagree with the idea of leaving.
What should be done to improve the impending doom?
Stay in the Single Market."
The British public have rejected the idea of the single market in the referendum. The British public voted to take back control of our borders, that means stopping the free movement of people from the EU (to achieve this we must leave the single market). The British public voted to take back control of our money, stop payment of extortionate EU contribution fees (to do this we must leave the single market). The British public voted to take back control of our laws, and make UK law supreme over EU law (to achieve this we must leave the single market). |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom?
I work alot in the United States and many of my colleagues ask me about this whole Brexit idea and very broadly the concensus follows the line of common sense.
"Why would you want to stop trading freely with your next door neighbours in the hope that you might be able to trade with someone else on the other side of the world. That's just dumb."
Ok that's an example of why you disagree with the idea of leaving.
What should be done to improve the impending doom?
Stay in the Single Market.
The British public have rejected the idea of the single market in the referendum. The British public voted to take back control of our borders, that means stopping the free movement of people from the EU (to achieve this we must leave the single market). The British public voted to take back control of our money, stop payment of extortionate EU contribution fees (to do this we must leave the single market). The British public voted to take back control of our laws, and make UK law supreme over EU law (to achieve this we must leave the single market). "
No
They
Didn't
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"
So, how about making some suggestions to improve the impending doom?
I work alot in the United States and many of my colleagues ask me about this whole Brexit idea and very broadly the concensus follows the line of common sense.
"Why would you want to stop trading freely with your next door neighbours in the hope that you might be able to trade with someone else on the other side of the world. That's just dumb."
Ok that's an example of why you disagree with the idea of leaving.
What should be done to improve the impending doom?
Stay in the Single Market.
The British public have rejected the idea of the single market in the referendum. The British public voted to take back control of our borders, that means stopping the free movement of people from the EU (to achieve this we must leave the single market). The British public voted to take back control of our money, stop payment of extortionate EU contribution fees (to do this we must leave the single market). The British public voted to take back control of our laws, and make UK law supreme over EU law (to achieve this we must leave the single market). "
Well said  |
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