FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > The future of northern ireland

The future of northern ireland

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Theresa spoke on the news about NI's future today about the borders and they say they wont go back to how it was, but there would be some kind border control and there is huge challenges ahead. Will there be internal borders within the UK? Tomorrow theresa will meet the irish pm in London, what is your thoughts of northern ireland and borders within the UK?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have no problem with a united Ireland, however there's a few that do!.

I don't see why you'd need borders between Ireland and northern Ireland?

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"I have no problem with a united Ireland, however there's a few that do!.

I don't see why you'd need borders between Ireland and northern Ireland?"

Because when we leave the EU the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU and Northern Ireland wont.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have no problem with a united Ireland, however there's a few that do!.

I don't see why you'd need borders between Ireland and northern Ireland?

Because when we leave the EU the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU and Northern Ireland wont."
.

So?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We had the Common Travel Area since 1923 for unrestricted movement. It even survived 'The troubles'. Where the politicians are misleading us again is that it is not 'free movement of people' that is the problem it is the consequent free access to welfare, schools, jobs etc etc... So if Irish people want to pop up to Belfast why not?

People forget we have always had an exceptional arrangement with Ireland (or Eire) and its people. They have always been able to vote in our elections, serve in our Forces and work here. It was formalised under the CTA as above.

What will change is non Irish people will not get an NI Number and so will NOT have that same access that Irish people will continue to have. So why would we need border checks? If a Polish family working in Eire as part of EU 'Free Movement' wish to shop in Belfast or visit the Lake district on holiday why not?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

I would not be surprised if the end result of our vote to leave the EU eventually causes NI and Scotland to secede from the UK in favour of the EU.

Unfortunately I can see NI returning to a state of civil war before they leave us.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I would not be surprised if the end result of our vote to leave the EU eventually causes NI and Scotland to secede from the UK in favour of the EU.

Unfortunately I can see NI returning to a state of civil war before they leave us.

If it comes to a vote; hopefully Scotland will remain part of the UK

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"If it comes to a vote; hopefully Scotland will remain part of the UK"

I think you will be disappointed, I would say that the only reason that Scotland voted to stay last year was because they were told that leaving the UK meant leaving the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If it comes to a vote; hopefully Scotland will remain part of the UK

I think you will be disappointed, I would say that the only reason that Scotland voted to stay last year was because they were told that leaving the UK meant leaving the EU."

so what's changed?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"so what's changed?"

Now that England and Wales have voted to take Scotland and NI out of the EU I would say both countries have good reason to want to leave the union. I also think that the EU would do everything possible to ensure that neither country would be penalised and excluded from the EU if they voted for independence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"so what's changed?

as if

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"so what's changed?

do you not understand that Scotland and NI have never been in the EU?

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By *isandreTV/TS over a year ago

Durham

Surely they both have?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?"

no, just the UK. This has been discussed so many times. If they were independant countries they would have to apply to join again, which would take years and they wouldn't meet the requirements and would be vetoed by Spain and France anyway

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If it comes to a vote; hopefully Scotland will remain part of the UK

I think you will be disappointed, I would say that the only reason that Scotland voted to stay last year was because they were told that leaving the UK meant leaving the EU."

Eh no

Scotland was sold lie after lie from Westminster government, USA and many more countries around the world as well as shit from Osborne and BoE, same shit they tried to sell is to remain in EU

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By *isandreTV/TS over a year ago

Durham

"Surely they both have?

You make it sound very simple.

Wouldn't it be a lot more complicated than that?

I think, given this whole situation is unprecedented, they would have every chance of remaining part of the EU but negotiations of the terms, for each country would become very complicated, should these countries choose independence from the UK while the negotiations are ongoing.

You seem very certain that France and Spain would veto the application to re-join, but you can't know that but in any case it is by no means certain, in the circumstances, that they would have that right to exclude a country that in effect was already a part of the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

You make it sound very simple.

Wouldn't it be a lot more complicated than that?

I give up

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By *isandreTV/TS over a year ago

Durham

I give up "

Why? Because of this..

'The claim: An independent Scotland could remain a member of the European Union while the rest of the UK left, in effect taking over Britain's membership of the EU rather than having to start a fresh application to join as a new country.

Reality Check verdict: The situation is unclear. If Scotland were to hold a second referendum, and become independent, it could apply to become a member of the EU in the usual way.

And it is now more plausible that EU member states would try to speed up the process for Scotland than it would have been at the time of the 2014 independence referendum. But we cannot say if it would be able to continue as a member without going through some sort of application process.

The UK as a whole has voted to leave the European Union. But Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in by 62% to 38% - with all 32 council areas backing Remain.

In response to the result, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said: "Scotland has voted to stay in the EU and I intend to discuss all options to do so."

She said that the option of a second referendum on Scotland's independence was "on the table" and "highly likely".

But how might an independent Scotland stay in the EU if the UK as a whole has chosen not to remain? Would Scotland have to re-apply for EU membership?

Speaking to the BBC, former First Minister Alex Salmond said: "The logic would be that Scotland would have the option of remaining within Europe while the rest of the UK left Europe, so there would be no logic in saying, 'Let Scotland go out and then come back in again.'"

Even if a second referendum were to be held before the UK concluded its exit negotiations with the EU, and the Scottish people were to vote in favour of independence, it isn't clear that Scotland could automatically remain. If part of an existing EU country became independent and had to determine its membership of the EU as an independent state, this would be an unprecedented situation.

The existing EU Treaties contain no clause that sets out what would happen if this were to be the case.

'No certainty'

In 2012, the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee sought a clarification about how Scottish independence might affect its EU membership from the then European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso. In his response, Barroso wrote:

"Although there is no certainty, it appears an independent Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU but would instead have to re-apply and complete a process of accession... A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."

Mr Barroso added that an independent Scotland would be able to apply to become a member and the application would be treated in the usual way. This would mean that, if the other member countries accepted the application unanimously, an agreement between Scotland and the EU would be negotiated, the EU Treaties adjusted and, finally, ratified by all member states.

But during the Scottish referendum campaign in 2014, it was unclear whether the EU would permit an independent Scotland to negotiate as a de facto EU member, which would place it on a fast track to accession, or whether the normal, and much lengthier, accession process would be applied. This shorter process would require member states to agree to the EU Treaties being amended to allow Scotland to join, via Article 48 of the Treaty on the European Union.

Steve Peers, professor of law at the University of Essex says: "It's now much more plausible that other member states would agree to amend the Treaties to transfer the UK's membership of the UK to Scotland."

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By *isandreTV/TS over a year ago

Durham

From

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619907

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Getting back to the topic at hand,as someone who lives on the border here in Ireland quite simply it would be a catastrophe of unimaginable proportions which inevitably would bring us back to the old days.....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If it comes to a vote; hopefully Scotland will remain part of the UK

I think you will be disappointed, I would say that the only reason that Scotland voted to stay last year was because they were told that leaving the UK meant leaving the EU."

That and the sums the SNP put forward were complete bollocks

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Getting back to the topic at hand,as someone who lives on the border here in Ireland quite simply it would be a catastrophe of unimaginable proportions which inevitably would bring us back to the old days....."
.

But you would not really expect your typical Brexit to even give a flying fuck about the Irish border question. Nigel has never spoken about it so no one has an auto opinion to follow.

For those prepared to think things through a little deeper it is a very big question bearing in mind that the whole Brexit campaign was about "taking control of our borders". So how can we then have strong control over all of our borders other than Ireland where we won't actually have a border at all to speak of.

Shame really that the Brexit campaign was not a little more multi-dimensional and considered very real issues that concern real people who in the main have always wanted to remain part of the U.K.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

Do you think that reuniting is an option if NI voted to break from the union?

Or do you think there would be another outbreak of loyalest violence like the one that caused direct rule and the placing of troops on the streets of NI in 69?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think NI will either stay with the UK or become a United Ireland. I'm not sure they will go it alone given they'll be unlikely to get immediate access to the EU.

The United Ireland situation would be fascinating. I can see a long-term hand over being initiated.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Oh some day we will have our country back,probsbly not in my lifetime unfortunately but it will happen...the days of the loyalists with British government backing holding this island to random are long gone...old mistakes cannot be recycled...for everyone's sake...with regard the border,exemption will be made it has to...common sense is what's needed.

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Oh some day we will have our country back,probsbly not in my lifetime unfortunately but it will happen...the days of the loyalists with British government backing holding this island to random are long gone...old mistakes cannot be recycled...for everyone's sake...with regard the border,exemption will be made it has to...common sense is what's needed."

If that's what you wish for I hope you see it in your lifetime ...all to long the English have dictated to the other countries in our union ..now that's what I call freedom not leaving the EU as some English believe ...

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By *oggoneMan over a year ago

Derry

Given the number of people that now live and work on the different sides of the border, any form of border control will be difficult. I crossed the border several times today, both on foot and by car. A hard border would also to be contrary to the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement. Passport control to the UK mainland isn't really an option either.

I really don't see the EU being crazy about the possibility of goods entering the single market from the North to the republic.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

I would have thought that most people north and south of the border would be quietly happy it exists. After all it provides jobs (two sets of civil servants) and easy profits for all Irish wishing to cash in, being able to move livestock and other stuff either way across the border depending on which market gives the best sales price and of course the obvious benefits when shopping of being able to choose paying UK £ or Eire €. However knowing the history (grandfather was in IRB, founder member of IRA, was part of the Easter rising and fought in the Black and Tan war), I do understand why most Irish want Ireland to be united.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 25/07/16 23:38:41]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The problem with the border and the pound versus euro seesaw is watching so many towns either side going from boom to bust in short spaces of time...for instance here,Dundalk a major town of almost 40,000 people basically collapsed while newry 10 mile away flourished but back in the day the opposite was taking place...I think also what needs to be remembered the people of the north voted to stay in the e.u....it's complex but trust me introducing a border will set us back 30 years unfortunately.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The problem with the border and the pound versus euro seesaw is watching so many towns either side going from boom to bust in short spaces of time...for instance here,Dundalk a major town of almost 40,000 people basically collapsed while newry 10 mile away flourished but back in the day the opposite was taking place...I think also what needs to be remembered the people of the north voted to stay in the e.u....it's complex but trust me introducing a border will set us back 30 years unfortunately."

Ah, never really gave any thought to the down side of cross-border trade but I can see how destabilising it would be for retailers now that you point it out. As for the damage introducing a border would do I can see it maybe turning the clock back all the way to 69/70 and the mass movement of people fearful of living in mixed communities.

I for one think caMoron and his cronies will not be treated kindly by history.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If it comes to a vote; hopefully Scotland will remain part of the UK

I think you will be disappointed, I would say that the only reason that Scotland voted to stay last year was because they were told that leaving the UK meant leaving the EU.

Eh no

Scotland was sold lie after lie from Westminster government, USA and many more countries around the world as well as shit from Osborne and BoE, same shit they tried to sell is to remain in EU"

What lies then? Do please list them here.

The Scottish people knew 18 months before they voted their would be an EU Referendum 'before 2017'. And it was held 'before 2017' in 2016!! Its tough if they did not like the result of that EU Referendum but that is how National Democracy works. The EU Referendum was a National Binary vote. Remaion or Leave. It was not a constituency / regional vote. And I find it utterly unbelievable that Sturgeon thinks its acceptable to wave her 1.7 million 'Remain votes against the 17.4 Million 'Leave' votes. One million of which were SCOTTISH leave votes! If they were THAT worried in 2014 they could have voted 'Out', become Independent and sailed off into the North Sea begging the EU for membership. But they didn't. They are now part of the UK and they will be treated as part of the UK and OUT of the EU.

The Scottish people were promised much in 2014 (by Gordon Brown actually), the Smith Commission attended by all parties including the SNP) verified those promises and the Coalition and Tory Governments enacted EVERY DAMN PROMISE!

Its only the SNP who are bleating because they are shit scared of having to deliver on THEIR promises.

And after April this year its the Scottish people that will be paying the price of the SNP economic failure not the English or Westminster any more....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But you would not really expect your typical Brexit to even give a flying fuck about the Irish border question. Nigel has never spoken about it so no one has an auto opinion to follow.

Shame really that the Brexit campaign was not a little more multi-dimensional and considered very real issues that concern real people who in the main have always wanted to remain part of the U.K."

I am Brexit and I DO give a flying fuck as it happens and because I do I answered the OP's question in detail above. Maybe read a bit more before throwing the usual crap at those who voted differently to yourselves...

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By *isandreTV/TS over a year ago

Durham

I don't think Cameron & Co delivered every damn promise. I'm pretty sure the Scots don't think that.

The 'Vow' was cleverly worded. It didn't say specifically Devo Max but that was all the talk for days leading up to the vote. They aren't getting Devo Max.

As for other broken promises there were many but the one that should be obvious is the one where the Scottish people were told not to vote for independence if they wanted to stay part of the EU.

The better together campaign said 'what is the process for removing our eu citizenship? Voting yes'

Whereas actually voting to stay in the UK has actually jeopardised this if the PM triggers article 50.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"We had the Common Travel Area since 1923 for unrestricted movement. It even survived 'The troubles'. Where the politicians are misleading us again is that it is not 'free movement of people' that is the problem it is the consequent free access to welfare, schools, jobs etc etc... So if Irish people want to pop up to Belfast why not?

1) there has not always been unrestricted movement. The troubles most certainly restricted it - ask anyone who lived or served there.

2) the reasons you give why a border is unnecessary, equally then apply to other EU borders with the U.K. If it is only about not issuing NI numbers then border controls with the EU are not necessary anywhere?

You are completely missing the point that this open border would enable a flow of unknown people and goods (terrorists and armaments for example) to move unindhered through the EU and into the UK without passing through a border. This whilst the entire Brexit campaign was about securing our borders and knowing who was coming in.

Without some kind of controls, Northern Ireland will become a major hub for criminal, smuggling and god knows what other sorts of illegal and dangerous activities.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

What about smuggling of goods? Until we agree to join/rejoin the single market and its 4 freedoms, there will be customs duties to pay on goods crossing the border. There were customs checkpoints and security checkpoints in the past.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"I would not be surprised if the end result of our vote to leave the EU eventually causes NI and Scotland to secede from the UK in favour of the EU.

Unfortunately I can see NI returning to a state of civil war before they leave us.

If NI and Scotland go, I cant see Wales hanging around can you?

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Surely they both have?

But they are part of the UK, so they are in the EU. England could just leave like Greenland and the Faroes. The UK could become like Cyprus. Southern Cyprus is in the EU, Northern isn't, there is an international border where the 4 freedoms dont apply. If a country like Cyprus can make it work, then why can't the UK? Do you think Cyprus is better than the UK?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

1) there has not always been unrestricted movement. The troubles most certainly restricted it - ask anyone who lived or served there."

But as I said 'It even survived the Troubles'. so your point is exactly?

2) the reasons you give why a border is unnecessary, equally then apply to other EU borders with the U.K."

Forgive me mentioning it but there are no other land borders like the Irish one.

" If it is only about not issuing NI numbers then border controls with the EU are not necessary anywhere?"

You conveniently confuse many things but basically 'controlling our borders' means 'controlling immigration' and we cannot do that inside the EU. If the EU insist on visas for British people we will return the favour. Personally I hope we allow people to come here on holiday (as they did pre-EEC days) visa free but with passport controls. Not issuing NI Numbers is the way to stop immigration. THAT is the control we need.

" You are completely missing the point that this open border would enable a flow of unknown people and goods (terrorists and armaments for example) to move unindhered through the EU and into the UK without passing through a border. This whilst the entire Brexit campaign was about securing our borders and knowing who was coming in.

Without some kind of controls, Northern Ireland will become a major hub for criminal, smuggling and god knows what other sorts of illegal and dangerous activities."

..and all this will only start when we leave the EU and none of this happens now when we have totally open borders of course ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

The UK joined the EU as the UK and as far as I know we must leave as the UK as all treaties were signed by a UK PM on behalf of all 4 countries.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I am just voicing ideas about how the UK could remain United, not splitting it up. Dragging Scotland and NI out against their will, just because England and Wales want to leave, is more likely to break up the UK than searching for a solution acceptable to everyone.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose? "

What people like you are doing is endlessly trawling for arguments, taking parts of data that suit you and clutching at straws about Brexit because you didn't get your way. You have now taken up the Nicola Sturgeon version of democracy (which follows the EU dictates) that when you don't get the answer you want from a Referendum ask it again. And again until you do. Some people might suggest that the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing repeatedly hoping for a different result. I couldn't possibly comment...

Lets be very clear about the EU referendum to help the discussion. It was a Binary (and indeed binding) national vote where my vote and your vote and Nicola Sturgeon's vote were all of equal value. It was NOT a constituency vote, a Regional vote let alone a 'country' vote. The fact that someone can make that analysis by country, region or wherever is of totally zero value. The people of the United Kingdom were asked (by Parliament) to give their opinion. They did so. That is all there is to say.

Now Ms Sturgeon might like to go on about how 'all of Scotland voted to Remain' but she forgets over a million Scots voted to leave the EU, some 2 million voted to NOT leave the UK knowing there WOULD be an EU referendum and she lost 10% of her seats in the recent Scottish Parliamentary elections. She represents some 8% of the UK population of whom some 1.7 million voted as she wanted them to and yet she fails to see that ten times that number in the WHOLE of the UK voted differently. And yet she stamps her little feet and demands the attention of the world?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose? "

The voting is over for now we must all wait and see what happens next, you say Brexit is dragging Scotland and N.I out of the EU only 67% of Scots voted 1.65 million to remain (there the ones being dragged out) and 1.2 million to leave don't the 1.2 million who voted to leave have a say then don't they matter because they want to leave.

WE had a vote we were all told many times every vote counts so no excuses for not knowing, its up to the government now to do the best deal they can and earn their pay.

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated."

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated."

Well we had a refernedum on the EU in the 1970s, but that didn't stop the euroskeptics voicing their concerns, so I think you can get used to hearing the voice of the pro europeans for the next 40 plus years.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I doubt there will be an EU in 4 years nevermind 40

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible."

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Let them sail off into the North Sea, save us English some £15 Bn a year (more than the EU costs us and we voted to leave that heap of shit) and then let them get a currency, a Bank of Settlements, prove they can run an economy for 3 years and then wait another 3 years to join. Oh and then accept the Euro. And by doing so give up the Independence they demanded from the UK.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ... "

So you can’t say why you don’t like that solution then? Is it just because you hate the EU so much that you don’t believe that any country should be allowed to be in it? Even if they voted to remain?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible."

You are quite right. It sounds like a reasonable compromise that should make everyone happy but you know that it won't.

There are a vocal number of Rnglish patriots whose colonial dna will simply not allow them to believe that anything or anyone could survive without the English and that no other nation should be anything but subservient.

Cue - Scotland can't survive without England... The EU can't survive without the UK, now that the UK has left the EU everyone will want to leave etc etc

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?"

I don't believe that it did. Voters in Scotland voted to remain, voters in NI voted to remain, voters in England and Wales voted to leave. The Brexit campaigned banged on enough about people being in charge of their own destiny, not ruled by an unelected body in the capital of another country. Well isn't that exactly what you are suggesting happens to NI and Scotland? Theresa May wasn't elected, neither were her cabinet. London is a foreign capital compared to Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast.

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU."

what about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oggoneMan over a year ago

Derry

What about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?"

Ah whataboutery. Ironic that its occurs when Northern Ireland is being discussed. The most common and unsophisticated logical fallacy.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?

Ah whataboutery. Ironic that its occurs when Northern Ireland is being discussed. The most common and unsophisticated logical fallacy."

? Is that Irish?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oggoneMan over a year ago

Derry

What about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?

Ah whataboutery. Ironic that its occurs when Northern Ireland is being discussed. The most common and unsophisticated logical fallacy.

? Is that Irish?"

Logical fallacies? Far from it. In very simple terms, flawed reasoning often used in debate. Ad hominem attacks being commonly used here in the politics forum.

Wikipedia defines it as:

what about + -ery Originally used in describing political discourse during the Northern Ireland troubles, it has also found use in discussions of the origins of other prolonged sectarian conflicts, such as the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?

Ah whataboutery. Ironic that its occurs when Northern Ireland is being discussed. The most common and unsophisticated logical fallacy.

? Is that Irish?

Logical fallacies? Far from it. In very simple terms, flawed reasoning often used in debate. Ad hominem attacks being commonly used here in the politics forum.

Wikipedia defines it as:

fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

What about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?

Ah whataboutery. Ironic that its occurs when Northern Ireland is being discussed. The most common and unsophisticated logical fallacy.

? Is that Irish?

Logical fallacies? Far from it. In very simple terms, flawed reasoning often used in debate. Ad hominem attacks being commonly used here in the politics forum.

Wikipedia defines it as:

fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all"

So are you saying that we shouldn't have a United Kingdom then? That pooled sovereignty doesn't work well for us?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all"

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" You are quite right. It sounds like a reasonable compromise that should make everyone happy but you know that it won't."

Sort of like the Remainers like you are never happy? Are you the role model we should follow?

" There are a vocal number of Rnglish patriots whose colonial dna will simply not allow them to believe that anything or anyone could survive without the English and that no other nation should be anything but subservient."

Forgive my French but what a load of old bollocks!

Since when was it a crime to be a Patriot? Oh wait only if you are an ENGLISH Patriot. OK we get that..

As for the rest I think you need to have aword with yourself and stop slagging off a whole nation.

" Cue - Scotland can't survive without England.. "

Well the economic reality is that given the way us evil English have been supporting Scotland for years then actually no Scotland can't survive on its own. If Scotland is such a mega economy why did those English Patriots have to cough up £15 Billion last year and why do the Scots get substantially more public spending per capita than the rest of the UK (except Ulster which is an exception)

" The EU can't survive without the UK, now that the UK has left the EU everyone will want to leave etc etc "

No one has said the EU cannot survive. But it won't unless it changes course. But it won't so yes more countries will leave. But not just because the Uk left...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What about Spain and Portugal and Greece? What do you think at least 50% of their youth would say to people like you?

Ah whataboutery. Ironic that its occurs when Northern Ireland is being discussed. The most common and unsophisticated logical fallacy.

? Is that Irish?

Logical fallacies? Far from it. In very simple terms, flawed reasoning often used in debate. Ad hominem attacks being commonly used here in the politics forum.

Wikipedia defines it as:

fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

So are you saying that we shouldn't have a United Kingdom then? That pooled sovereignty doesn't work well for us? "

I don't care either way, maybe it has maybe it hasn't, but a pooled sovereignty hasn't worked for everyone or is always better like you claim has it? It has failed time and again over the years

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?"

of course they would

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would"

Would it be too much to ask for some evidence to support this? Some academic research perhaps? Something publish by a well recognized financial institution? Or is this based solely on your opinion? Do you have any expertise in the economies of the Mediterranean? Maybe you did a PhD thesis on the subject, or it is your profession? Are you paid to research and make evidence based assessments of such economies?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would

None of us on here are 'experts' and that includes you. So when someone offers an opinion it is just that and they have every right so to do. Some of us try to attach sources and quotes from people we respect. You seem to feel the need to challenge anyone's Bona Fides or CV when they say anything. As you did here? And yet you can say whatever you like?

And just as an aside why are you SO intent on trying to do this country down? There is so much good news about and yet you seem to want to scratch for every negative morsel you can find. I am just intrigued and in no way wish to say you shouldn't. As long as you don't mind the more positive amongst us arguing back ...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU."

Just one question who was Prime Minister when we voted? David Cameron I believe and the vote was for the whole of the UK.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU.

Just one question who was Prime Minister when we voted? David Cameron I believe and the vote was for the whole of the UK. "

Yes with only about 35% of the vote ....

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU.

Just one question who was Prime Minister when we voted? David Cameron I believe and the vote was for the whole of the UK.

Yes with only about 35% of the vote ...."

Its still more than the 34% that vote to remain and that's all that matters.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU.

Just one question who was Prime Minister when we voted? David Cameron I believe and the vote was for the whole of the UK.

Yes with only about 35% of the vote ....

Its still more than the 34% that vote to remain and that's all that matters."

Ah that's back to England trying to force its will on the other countries that make up the UK ..the same as England has done for many years ..about time little englanders realised there not the only country in the UK

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would

How can I give evidence? I can't turn back time. But the collapse of businesses and property prices, over 20% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment and high suicide rates particularly in Greece, are you seriously trying to tell me that things would have been worse for those countries if they had been out of the EU/Eurozone? How the bloody hell could it have been worse exactly?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would

Because in the past that kind of instability lead to wars. You love to blame everything on the EU, but these countries have national governments who makes laws and policies to control such things.

If you are saying that it has been much worse for those countries than it has been for the UK, why are we leaving and they are staying? If it was as bad as you say then they would leave. The fact that they stay shows that to them, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

The UK has been extremely lucky in having a functioning democratic government over our lifetimes (and much longer) if you look at the lifetimes of other people from member states they have lived in occupied Europe during WWII. Partitioned countries like Germany, communism as Warsaw pact counties, facist dictatorships until the 1970s etc. So the majority of member states have had it a LOT worse than under the EU. That's why they love it, and believe in it as a project and wont back down on the fundamental tenants of it, especially for a country that has just had a referendum to leave.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would

In nearly all of my posts I state where the information comes from, so no, they are not just my opinions, these are statements from experts, Brexit can’t offer up any experts to say what they are doing is the right thing to do. I find that extremely dangerous. Also you have no idea of my academic or professional qualifications, and I don’t know yours, or anyone elses, thats why I asked the question.

Im not intent on doing the Country down, I am intent on doing Brexit down, because it is an awful idea! Do not make the mistake of thinking that Britain and Brexit are the same thing, because they are not. There hasn’t been any good news about Brexit, there has been a crash in the pound, a massive rise in hate crimes, damage to our university and research sectors, a contraction of our economy etc. etc. These do not constitute good news.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would

Because in the past that kind of instability lead to wars. You love to blame everything on the EU, but these countries have national governments who makes laws and policies to control such things.

jeez what a patronising git. They should be grateful because they've had it worse under dictators and wars?

you don't half talk some shite.

There is no appetite from the governments of these countries to leave at the moment because they are so deep in debt and their banking systems are so fragile and so linked to the Euro that they feel they are stuck. But among the people right across Europe there is a huge desire to leave the EU, had you not noticed? Or do you just ignore polls from Europe because you don't like what they are saying?"

Im a patronising git? You are the one telling them to leave the EU even though they don’t want to!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

Hang on .. you were arguing earlier that it couldn't work in Ireland but apparently you are now giving an example where a land border can work?

As for your happily splitting up the UK I think you should be ashamed.

I haven't said that anything wouldn't work on the Eire/NI border, I just said that previously there had been checkpoints.

I wonder if the question was put to people; would you like to leave the EU in the knowledge that the UK will break up, or remain in the EU and the UK will remain united, which would people chose?

The EU have told her quite clearly Scotland will NOT stay a member of the EU when the UK leaves. Thats it right there. So a period of quiet from the woman really would be greatly appreciated.

Scotland leaving the UK, and then applying to join the EU, is quite different from just England and Wales chosing to leave the EU, and the United Kingdom remaining united, and in the EU.

Why do you dislike that solution?

Nothing is yet decided, and we should all try to remember that politics is the art of the possible.

You know what? I am now minded to ask the PM to repeal the Act of Union and let Ms Sturgeon have her way with the Scottish people. They will be fucked but not as they might wish.

Yeah sounds like a great plan to me ...

The UK voted to leave has as been said before individual countries don't count it was a vote by the UK as a whole why cant you accept that?

So how about being consistent in your believes to both the EU and the UK? I believe that pooled sovereignty works well and benefits all, in the case of both the UK and the EU.

Just one question who was Prime Minister when we voted? David Cameron I believe and the vote was for the whole of the UK.

Yes with only about 35% of the vote ....

Its still more than the 34% that vote to remain and that's all that matters.

How stupid are you what part of "the whole of the UK voted leave" not England on its own.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"fair enough, but my whataboutery was nothing to do with Ireland, I was just questioning the poster who said that pooled soveriegnty benefits all

Are you suggesting that the countries you originally mentioned would have been better off outside the € zone or even the EU during and after the international banking collapse?

of course they would

Because in the past that kind of instability lead to wars. You love to blame everything on the EU, but these countries have national governments who makes laws and policies to control such things.

And if it was,nt for the English Channel the UK would have been occupied so we all should think ourselves lucky we are not to be under Nazi control today.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" In nearly all of my posts I state where the information comes from, so no, they are not just my opinions, these are statements from experts, Brexit can’t offer up any experts to say what they are doing is the right thing to do. I find that extremely dangerous. Also you have no idea of my academic or professional qualifications, and I don’t know yours, or anyone elses, thats why I asked the question."

The so called 'experts' (eg IMF) you keep dragging up were giving 'forecasts' not 'facts' and creating a climate of fear and upset amongst the electorate to influence the decision to suit their own agendas or as part of the Government's agenda (to whom they paid lip service). When you quote a so called 'expert' you need to look at their current activities. So for the IMF, for example, you need to explain their role at the top table of the Euro policy makers before you try and convince the doubters they are in any way 'neutral'. And given Lagarde's corruption maybe their competence.

You mention Brexit has no 'experts'. Well yes we did but the vote is over and now we just have 'events'. And to date contrary to your vision of doom and gloom (Project Fear - The Sequel) there has been huge amounts of positive evidence (note: evidence not forecasts). Brexit does not need 'experts and forecasts' it just reports events as they now happen.

I don't actually care what your qualifications are. Or anyone else's because everyone has a right to be heard and not shut down in a tirade of personal abuse and superiority because they hold a different opinion. Yes bring facts and figures to the debate (as I try to do) but to have an attitude of intellectual superiority (as you project) is what the Establishment and Elite do. And why stupid, ignorant, non-expert little Englanders like me voted for Brexit...

" Im not intent on doing the Country down, I am intent on doing Brexit down, because it is an awful idea! Do not make the mistake of thinking that Britain and Brexit are the same thing, because they are not."

Well actually since June 24th and the results Britain and Brexit are the same thing. To say otherwise is to deny an event and deny an electoral majority. And Brexit is NOT 'an idea'. It is a fact. A path we are all now following.

" There hasn’t been any good news about Brexit, there has been a crash in the pound, a massive rise in hate crimes, damage to our university and research sectors, a contraction of our economy etc. etc. These do not constitute good news. "

Well even if what you said was totally true it would not be the end of the world you and yours are projecting. BUT:

The pound has fallen and since stablised at about 10% (trade weighted). Good for exports and UK foreign investments and not good for those going to Ibiza.

Hate crimes are NOTHING to do with Brexit. Because some idiots use an event to be idiots cannot be and must not be laid at the door of those of us who fought on the issues. And it is sad you bring the racism factor into the debate. This Brexiter is getting really hacked off being called a racist and being associated by inference with those who are racists.

The research and university sectors are big enough to look after themselves. As the Royal Society noted:

"The UK was the second largest recipient in absolute terms after Germany in the most recent Framework Programme (FP7) [called Horizon2020]. If structural funds are taken into account, Poland is ranked second and the UK fourth. In the UK, universities are by far the most successful in attracting Framework Programme funding, taking 71% of the total funds awarded to the UK during Framework Programme 7. UK businesses attracted 18%. By contrast, if we consider the distribution of where research and development is conducted in the UK; 64% conducted by businesses and 26% in universities."

So do not overplay University R & D and the impact of EU funding.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/projects/eu-uk-funding/uk-membership-of-eu.pdf

And lastly we come to 'contraction of our economy'?

* So you missed the huge rise in employment?

* You missed Unemployment at an 11 year low?

* You missed the 1.6% quarterly rise in Retail Sales?

* You missed the 16.2% jump in home loans in May and June?

* You missed the Stock Exchange at a 52 week high?

* You missed the Bank of England not seeing any need for interest rate changes or QE?

*You missed the B of E also saying 'there is no indication of any recession'?

* You missed the UK had its best June ever for Government borrowing down £2.2 Billion year on year?

And just today the ONS says:

The UK economy grew by 0.6% in the three months to the end of June, as economic growth accelerated. On an annual basis, growth was 2.2%, helped by a surge in manufacturing (what price those IMF 'forecasts' of 1.7% growth now?).

Manufacturing output grew at 2.1% in the quarter, which was its "best gain since 1999", said Neil Wilson, an analyst at ETX Capital. (what price that PMI 'forecast' now?)

One has to conclude that you are either blind to factual reality or just peddling some rather negative personal agenda. To which you are entitled but at least be honest and say so....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" And if it was,nt for the English Channel the UK would have been occupied so we all should think ourselves lucky we are not to be under Nazi control today."

I think the RAF had a bit more to do with us not being invaded than did 20 miles of Channel. Hitler's bombers didn't seem to be too put off when they were laying waste to every big city in the UK ... Sheer military bravery, civilian determination, cunning, inventiveness and better aircraft were the deciding factors not a stretch of water.

IMHO.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"I think the RAF had a bit more to do with us not being invaded than did 20 miles of Channel. Hitler's bombers didn't seem to be too put off when they were laying waste to every big city in the UK ... Sheer military bravery, civilian determination, cunning, inventiveness and better aircraft were the deciding factors not a stretch of water.

IMHO."

What a load of utter crap! How can you be so monumentally stupid?

IMHO, you need to read a history of WW2 between 10 May 1940 and 21 May 1940. however Ill give you a quick potted history:

10 May 1940, Germany invades low countries outflanking Frances fixed defences. BEF and French forces move to confront invaders.

21 May BEF and French defeated and routed. Retreat halted by fact that Channel stopped them running any further away.

If it were not for the Channel the Germans would have been marching down every high street in Briton before the Dunkirk evacuation was completed!

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Surely they both have?

the veto'd by spain arguement probably doesn't exist anymore... as there isn't the same scotland leaving a country inside the eu arguement as it was with catelonia leaving spain

now scotland are leaving a country who are leaving the eu.. that arguement has gone...

I do find it ironic that ireland didn't join schengen was because of the CTA wanting to keep the border an open one.... only now for the "non-irish" uk out supporters to potentially stick two fingers up at them....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

IMHO.

What a load of utter crap! How can you be so monumentally stupid?

IMHO, you need to read a history of WW2 between 10 May 1940 and 21 May 1940. however Ill give you a quick potted history:

10 May 1940, Germany invades low countries outflanking Frances fixed defences. BEF and French forces move to confront invaders.

21 May BEF and French defeated and routed. Retreat halted by fact that Channel stopped them running any further away.

If it were not for the Channel the Germans would have been marching down every high street in Briton before the Dunkirk evacuation was completed!

Ignoring the personal shit you dish out you seem to think a war was lost in 10 days in 1940. when it was actually won in the Summer that followed. Clearly you also do not understand how an invasion works. You need air superiority which the Germans had in France. The RAF not only denied that superiority we decimated the Luftwaffe in the air. Hence no invasion. The Germans never even left port so the Channel was not a factor. It was a battle won in the air not in the Channel. And maybe why its called 'The Battle of Britain'??

You also forget we had the biggest Navy in the world and you really think those barges in Rotterdam would have got past the RN had they ventured out? The Germans never won a single naval battle in WWII.

We still repatriated 340,000 soldiers (British and French) off the beaches at Dunkirk to fight another day. That in itself was a victory of endeavour.

Are you some kind of Politically Coreect re-writer of history who has some grudge against the RAF? Because in the field of human endeavour it was THOSE 'few' to whom people like you owe so much..

With apologies to Sir Winston Churchill. A man who wrote the definitive history of WWII and who says it was the RAF and no one else who saved Britain in the Summer of 1940. Maybe YOU should go read THAT book?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

the veto'd by spain arguement probably doesn't exist anymore... as there isn't the same scotland leaving a country inside the eu arguement as it was with catelonia leaving spain

now scotland are leaving a country who are leaving the eu.. that arguement has gone...

Hey .. no one is sticking two fingers up to anyone and certainly not the Irish. Who was the PM with earlier - The Northern Irish. And who was she with yesterday? the Irish PM. Both agree there will be no return to borders of the past and both wish the trade between the UK and Ireland (running at £1 Billion a week!) to increase not reduce.

The CTA pre-dated the EEC, survived the Troubles and will be re-instated in a relevant way. You forget the unique tie between the Irish and the British. The Irish fought in British regiments in WWI and WWII when Ireland remained neutral and the Irish Guards take their turn Trooping their Colour for Her Majesty. Irish citizens have always voted in British elections when they work here.

Please do not mislead people by using the 'two fingers' suggestion...

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

IMHO.

What a load of utter crap! How can you be so monumentally stupid?

IMHO, you need to read a history of WW2 between 10 May 1940 and 21 May 1940. however Ill give you a quick potted history:

10 May 1940, Germany invades low countries outflanking Frances fixed defences. BEF and French forces move to confront invaders.

21 May BEF and French defeated and routed. Retreat halted by fact that Channel stopped them running any further away.

If it were not for the Channel the Germans would have been marching down every high street in Briton before the Dunkirk evacuation was completed!

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Clearly you also do not understand how an invasion works. You need air superiority which the Germans had in France. The RAF not only denied that superiority we decimated the Luftwaffe in the air. Hence no invasion. The Germans never even left port so the Channel was not a factor. It was a battle won in the air not in the Channel. And maybe why its called 'The Battle of Britain'??

We still repatriated 340,000 soldiers (British and French) off the beaches at Dunkirk to fight another day. That in itself was a victory of endeavour.

Are you some kind of Politically Coreect re-writer of history who has some grudge against the RAF? Because in the field of human endeavour it was THOSE 'few' to whom people like you owe so much..

How can you be so dumb? Is it natural or have you had to work at it?

You origin ally said:

""I think the RAF had a bit more to do with us not being invaded than did 20 miles of Channel."

It was that 20 mile bit of channel that stopped Hitler! Between 10 and 21 May The BEFs RAF contingent was wiped out because the Luftwaffe had air superiority. In fact if you know your history you would know that ACM Dowding advised the UK government not to send planes to France because they would be lost because of the Luftwaffe's air superiority!

Then in your second post you go on to say:

"You also forget we had the biggest Navy in the world and you really think those barges in Rotterdam would have got past the RN had they ventured out? The Germans never won a single naval battle in WWII.

Again you show little understanding of what was originally said!

If the 20 miles of channel had not existed, then it would have been dry land and the RN would have been an irrelevance!

"Hitler's bombers didn't seem to be too put off when they were laying waste to every big city in the UK ... Sheer military bravery, civilian determination, cunning, inventiveness and better aircraft were the deciding factors not a stretch of water.

IMHO.""

Simple fact is the only thing that stopped Hitlers forces rolling us up in May 1940 was the channel!

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Surely they both have?

the veto'd by spain arguement probably doesn't exist anymore... as there isn't the same scotland leaving a country inside the eu arguement as it was with catelonia leaving spain

now scotland are leaving a country who are leaving the eu.. that arguement has gone...

Please do not mislead people by using the 'two fingers' suggestion..."

but if there is still EU freedom of movement into ireland.... but no border between the south and the north.... then isn't the whole "we will manage EU immigration" a fallacy because you have a wideopen entry point....

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Surely they both have?

the veto'd by spain arguement probably doesn't exist anymore... as there isn't the same scotland leaving a country inside the eu arguement as it was with catelonia leaving spain

now scotland are leaving a country who are leaving the eu.. that arguement has gone...

Please do not mislead people by using the 'two fingers' suggestion...

I don't think anyone has a solution to the Irish border problem at the moment we will also have the same problem with Scotland if they leave the UK and join the EU.

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By *issing in actionWoman over a year ago

Llanelli

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

There was a 56% vote for remain in northern ireland and they have benefited from the eu funds, notably to support the peace process.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"I don't think anyone has a solution to the Irish border problem at the moment we will also have the same problem with Scotland if they leave the UK and join the EU."

The 2 are not the same.

If Scotland secede from the UK then it will be a simple matter of erecting a border fence and building customs posts at authorised entry/exit points. Then administering them in the same way as all other ports of entry are administrated.

NI is different because of the 1921 Anglo Irish (also know as the Ports Treaty), which allows Irish citizens free movement and the right to work and vote in the UK. The historical importance of this treaty to UK security cannot be overstated. Because even though we handed back the treaty ports to Ireland on formation of the Republic it was the treaty that allowed for the laying of 'Churchill's Welcome Mat from Penzance and the Scilly Ilses to Crookhaven (thus denying access to the Irish Sea from the south and keeping it free of U boats), and allowing Ireland to maintain neutrality while allowing RAF Coastal Command maritime escort planes to take a short cut over the republic thus reducing and eventually eliminating the size of the Atlantic gap and the winning of WW2.

I for one would not want to see it scrapped because it may be needed again.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Wouldn't it be better if we just all worked together and didn't need hard borders?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

the veto'd by spain arguement probably doesn't exist anymore... as there isn't the same scotland leaving a country inside the eu arguement as it was with catelonia leaving spain

now scotland are leaving a country who are leaving the eu.. that arguement has gone...

Please do not mislead people by using the 'two fingers' suggestion...

You throw in the Free Movement thing as if it is just a single entity. Try and understand this simple fact:

So someone from France has 'Free Movement [of their labour]' and works in Eire. They fancy shopping in Belfast and drive over the open border and do their shopping. And then drive home. There is no control needed and no one in Vote Leave suggested it was needed for visitors of holidaymakers.

Now that same someone from France uses the open border to get a job in Belfast they will not succeed. Why? because they will not have a valid NI Number. THAT is the control we have been talking about. Control of immigration and Labour NOT visitors who will be made most welcome.

we need to differentiate between 'Free Movement of People' and 'Free Movement of Labour'. Yes I know that isn't how the EU describes it in the 4 Freedoms but that is how we should now understand them.

Oh and if that French person wishes to pop over to the Lake District after shopping in Belfast then they will be free to do so provided they have a passport which they will as Eire isn't in Schengen.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We still repatriated 340,000 soldiers (British and French) off the beaches at Dunkirk to fight another day. That in itself was a victory of endeavour.

Are you some kind of Politically Coreect re-writer of history who has some grudge against the RAF? Because in the field of human endeavour it was THOSE 'few' to whom people like you owe so much..

How can you be so dumb? Is it natural or have you had to work at it?

You origin ally said:

"I think the RAF had a bit more to do with us not being invaded than did 20 miles of Channel.

Then in your second post you go on to say:

Again you show little understanding of what was originally said!

If the 20 miles of channel had not existed, then it would have been dry land and the RN would have been an irrelevance!

Hitler's bombers didn't seem to be too put off when they were laying waste to every big city in the UK ... Sheer military bravery, civilian determination, cunning, inventiveness and better aircraft were the deciding factors not a stretch of water.

IMHO."

Simple fact is the only thing that stopped Hitlers forces rolling us up in May 1940 was the channel!"

I got as far as 'How can you be so dumb' and really lost interest ...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely they both have?

the veto'd by spain arguement probably doesn't exist anymore... as there isn't the same scotland leaving a country inside the eu arguement as it was with catelonia leaving spain

now scotland are leaving a country who are leaving the eu.. that arguement has gone...

Please do not mislead people by using the 'two fingers' suggestion...

You throw in the Free Movement thing as if it is just a single entity. Try and understand this simple fact:

Oh and if that French person wishes to pop over to the Lake District after shopping in Belfast then they will be free to do so provided they have a passport which they will as Eire isn't in Schengen."
you stole my thunder,was writing all this...simply we are an island..wish to get to britain,get your passport out...nothing will change here border wise.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There was a 56% vote for remain in northern ireland and they have benefited from the eu funds, notably to support the peace process."

Northern Ireland also benefits from exceptional extra funding from being in the UK having the highest per capita public spending in the UK. Followed closely by Scotland. The majority of people in Northern Ireland have also (twice) voted in Referendums to remain in the UK. And lest we forget: Those 'EU Funds' are actually 'UK Funds' recycled back to us by the EU ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?"

Funnily enough we did. Maybe you could have saved yourself a lot of shouting if you had taken a look at WHAT we were advocating taking control? It was immigration and the Free Movement of Labour. People wishing to visit can come and go as they please subject to normal border controls.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

So do you deny the massive rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Or you believe that they are happening, but think that its purely coincidental that it happened at the same time as the referendum?

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport."

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ... "

So can you get on a flight to another country without a passport?

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

So can you get on a flight to another country without a passport?"

Passport is nothing to do with free movement of people ...and successive British governments have turned down the idea of a national identity card ..

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

So can you get on a flight to another country without a passport?"

Bless you EasyE, you can't tell the difference between airline regulations and international treaties!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

So can you get on a flight to another country without a passport?

Passport is nothing to do with free movement of people ...and successive British governments have turned down the idea of a national identity card .."

If you need a passport that means you can't freely move actoss borders. Quite simple really.

But if you don't belive me try getting on an international flight without a passport and tell them they can't stop you because you have free movement across the EU.

Only once you've been successful are you allowed to come back and tell me I'm wrong. Until you do I'll kick back and relax

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I am not going to give your racist-peddling comments any response at all. While you infer those of us who campaigned for Vote Leave are racists and that we engendered hate crimes my opinion of you and people like you is getting lower and lower. Only room rules forbid my making it very clear what I think of people who shout 'racist' to kill any debate or discussion.

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them....

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them.... "

Has there been a rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Yes or No? By the way, I have not accused you or being involved in these attacks.

I am not trying to kill any debate, I am trying to start one about something that I find very troubling.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them....

Has there been a rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Yes or No? By the way, I have not accused you or being involved in these attacks.

I am not trying to kill any debate, I am trying to start one about something that I find very troubling."

You are a very clever individual who uses words carefully to cause offence and argument and normally its fun shutting your arguments down. However, and not for the first time, you blame Brexit for race hate crimes (without any source of fact or information to support that statement), you then associate me, as part of Vote Leave and Brexit, with those crimes and you are inferring all Brexiters and me in particular (as you keep asking me to deny it) are racists. I find that hugely insulting, unfounded and just a way of shutting down the debate. Lefties have always done it. Any mention of excessive immigration was howled down with righteous indignation and shouts of 'RACISTS'!

That is what you are now doing. So please stop ....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

So can you get on a flight to another country without a passport?

Bless you EasyE, you can't tell the difference between airline regulations and international treaties!

Ah bless. You don't know what free movement is.

Anyway, I'm ignoring you. Remember why?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them....

Has there been a rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Yes or No? By the way, I have not accused you or being involved in these attacks.

I am not trying to kill any debate, I am trying to start one about something that I find very troubling.

That is what you are now doing. So please stop ...."

CLCC is racist. It was proved on another thread. He accusses everyone else of it to try and cover it up. Thats his choice so let him be.

He will try and deny it but we all know

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ... "

Not without a passport.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

a 57% rise in hate crimes post the brexit vote should be a cause of concern for any decent person..

of course one can only surmise that there may have also been a rise if the vote had gone the other way..

it certainly doesn't mean that all who voted to leave are racist, but to ignore that the vote will have been taken by some as a validation by the racists that are carrying out these acts is bizarre..

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

Not without a passport."

WTF not without a plane ticket either but its still free movement of people ..and again it was the british government who didn't want to impose national identity card ..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"a 57% rise in hate crimes post the brexit vote should be a cause of concern for any decent person..

of course one can only surmise that there may have also been a rise if the vote had gone the other way..

it certainly doesn't mean that all who voted to leave are racist, but to ignore that the vote will have been taken by some as a validation by the racists that are carrying out these acts is bizarre..

Who knows why idiots act like idiots?

Look there is a huge amount of racism in football. But does anyone blame the game itself on the pitch or the results? does anyone blame every supporter? I would suggest the answer is 'no' because everyone understands that these racists are just idiots (see above).

But the Remainers seek every opportunity to 'blame Brexit' for everything negative. And when they can't find anything they fall back on 'racism' and again see above. Lose an argument and cry 'Racist' is the way they work.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"a 57% rise in hate crimes post the brexit vote should be a cause of concern for any decent person..

of course one can only surmise that there may have also been a rise if the vote had gone the other way..

it certainly doesn't mean that all who voted to leave are racist, but to ignore that the vote will have been taken by some as a validation by the racists that are carrying out these acts is bizarre..

Who knows why idiots act like idiots?

I think if you look at the rise objectively then one has to ask just what explains the spike post the result?

I don't think its a coincidence and its not being negative to highlight it, should it be ignored just in case some who voted to leave find it uncomfortable?

there were many negative aspects from both sides during the campaign and the immigration issue was used by the leave side in some cases quite disgracefully to pander to those who were prior to the debate already concerned, even Cameron recognised they had lost that point hence his desperate plea to Merkel..

the vote has gone and we are still in very uncharted waters, lets hope that it will be a success but there will be those as shown who have always wanted to blame someone else for whatever and that needs addressing by all in society who hold decent value's..

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

I shouted this at the tv every time a brexiteer would say "we need to control our borders". Did none of the brexiteers think to look at a map?

I can confirm there is not free movement of people across the EU. Try getting onto a flight into another country without a passport.

Traveling around the EU I can confirm there is free movement of people ...

Not without a passport.

WTF not without a plane ticket either but its still free movement of people ..and again it was the british government who didn't want to impose national identity card .."

WTF has a plane ticket got to do with walking or driving over a border between two countries its the passport that lets you in not the plane ticket FFS

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them....

Has there been a rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Yes or No? By the way, I have not accused you or being involved in these attacks.

I am not trying to kill any debate, I am trying to start one about something that I find very troubling.

That is what you are now doing. So please stop ...."

There has been a massive rise in hate crimes since the referendum and to suggest that the two are not linked is extremely disingenuous. I have repeatedly made it clear that I have not called you a racist, however others have called me racist. I think it is cowardly to try to shut down the debate on the issue by claiming that people are calling you racist when they haven't.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them....

Has there been a rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Yes or No? By the way, I have not accused you or being involved in these attacks.

I am not trying to kill any debate, I am trying to start one about something that I find very troubling.

That is what you are now doing. So please stop ....

Idiots who are racists do not need a rational reason to practice being idiots. They will be idiots whenever. Its really simple. And it has nothing to do with the result (and therefore 'Brexit') as there were attacks before the Referendum.

So lets turn this around. Show me ONE instance where the Vote Leave, Grassroots Out or Leave.EU campaigns made ANY racist statements or encouraged racial attacks or fomented racial hatred. Until you can do that just STOP all this racist stuff OK? Move the hell on ...

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

What I do know is no one I was associated with, spoke with or went to internal and public meetings with had an ounce of racism in them....

Has there been a rise in hate crimes since the referendum? Yes or No? By the way, I have not accused you or being involved in these attacks.

I am not trying to kill any debate, I am trying to start one about something that I find very troubling.

That is what you are now doing. So please stop ....

FFS just accept what both brexit campaigns were even a baroness swapped sides die to the racism in the brexit

The hostile rhetoric used by supporters as well as prominent figures of the Brexit campaign has created discomfort within the Turkish community in the U.K. as well as in Turkey.

Baroness Meral Hussein-Ece of the House of Lords told Anadolu Agency Thursday that the Leave Campaign was damaging the country's cohesion.

"Turks who live in U.K are not happy with what has been said. Portraying Turkish people in this way is a very damaging thing to do," Hussein-Ece said.

According to the British Home Office, more than 500,000 people of Turkish origin live in the U.K. as of 2011.

She also said that the Leave Campaign was misrepresenting actual facts and strongly objected to statements claiming that Turkey’s accession would somehow lead to more criminality and terrorism in the EU.

"It is a very xenophobic campaign. Brexit people who want to leave the European Union are using Turkey in a very negative and unfair way. They are misrepresenting the actual facts," she said.

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By *isandreTV/TS over a year ago

Durham

I would suggest they don't because football has campaigns like 'kick racism out' as a central tenet of the game rather than a poster with a long line of refugees being painted as on their way to the UK with the express purpose of becoming parasites.

This made it very visually clear that the campaign had a racist element to it, so that when 52% of voters did indeed vote that way it meant that the racists could feel that in fact the majority of the country agreed to an extent with their views.

When it comes to why Brexit voters voted that way...

One third (33%) said the MAIN reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.

13% said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead as their main reason, which apart from being wrong is a reason linked to immigration (that old Turkey lie).

Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

That is at least a fair enough argument, though I think generally we have that and most bad decisions that have affected us have been our own whereas a lot of EU legislation has been practical and positive.

Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”

That could be the case, though it is in my view unlikely.

I don't know why the Brexiters argue so much about the economic ups and downs or indeed any vague announcements about future trade deals, as it simply wasn't that important to them.

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By *LCCCouple over a year ago

Cambridge

Here Nigel Farage is suggesting that immigrants pose a threat of sex attacks on British Women.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/04/nigel-farage-migrants-could-pose-sex-attack-threat-to-

Here the Archbishop of Canterbury is saying that the Brexit campaigns are legitimizing racism, Keith Vaz also states that the campaign is racist.

britain/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471794

Here even the founder of UKIP is calling Farage a racist, recalling how Farage stated he wouldn't like to live next door to Romanian people and the racist words he uses to describe people of colour.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/ukip-founder-alan-sked-party-become-frankensteins-monster

“There isn’t anything subtle about this sort of campaigning, it’s comparable to Nazi propaganda and just straightforwardly racist,” David Gillborn, a race relations expert at the British University of Birmingham, told the Associated Press of Farage's campaigning. “The fact that people could have voted for this despite the crudest representations of racism is quite astonishing.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/25/the-uncomfortable-question-was-the-brexit-vote-based-on-racism/

Here the only UKIP MP is describing the Breaking Point poster as "morally indefensible"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/britain-eu-vote-leave-ukip

So it's not just me calling the campaigns and people like Farage racists, its people who have worked closely with him, the Chairman of the Home Affairs select committee, the Archbishop of Canterbury, race relations experts.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Congratulations 'CLCC'. I tried to get you away from the racist thing pointing out racists are idiots who will be idiots for a bunch of reasons. But no you ploughed on and now we have a full blown Racism row which is what you intended all along. Objective achieved.

Right there we have it then every voter who voted for 'Leave' is a closet racist. We have 17.4 million racists in the UK according to 'those that know everything'. I am apparently a racist because I supported Vote Leave. Magic!

And because we didn't have labels on our jackets saying 'We are not racist' then we must be racist because there is no racism at all in football because there is 'Stamp Racism out' leaflet or three. No none at all. Anyone been to a Chelsea game recently?

The Remoaners have nothing else to say so it degenerates into a slagging match where they accuse everyone who doesn't agree with them of being racists. Its New Labour and the loonie Lefties all over again. When moderate average people object to excessive immigration and they are shouted down and called 'RACISTS'! F**king pathetic!

And as for that poster of a stream of illegal migrants the photograph had been used by the media before. And nothing was said. UKIP had used it a month before. And nothing was said. The poster was published the morning before Jo Cox' tragic murder and was immediately removed. It was in THAT heightened atmosphere that people found the poster offensive. It was factually correct but that got lost in the events of the day. Of course Brexiters were blamed for Jo Cox' death just like we are blamed for every other damn thing. And here is the thing that REALLY you Remoaners don't get in your rush to paint every Brexiter as the same... That was a UKIP poster. It was actually denounced by Vote Leave, and the other campaigns. But never mind we are all Racist Brexiters aren't we?

And none of you answered my question which was:

"Show me ONE instance where the Vote Leave, Grassroots Out or Leave.EU campaigns made ANY racist statements or encouraged racial attacks or fomented racial hatred. Until you can do that just STOP all this racist stuff OK?"

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Here Nigel Farage is suggesting that immigrants pose a threat of sex attacks on British Women.