FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Plea for help from Leavers
Plea for help from Leavers
Jump to: Newest in thread
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"Didnt wanna be ruled from brussels the money they gave cud be better of spent here fishing rights the list cud be endless" Thanks for answering. In what way do Brussels rule us? Surely we have had (until last week) a voice in all the legislation? The money we pay to Europe gives us access to the European market - how do you propose to replace that for free? Or is it a question of how efficiently the money was spent maintaining the market? I am not sure what you mean by 'fishing rights'. Are you a fisherman? What rights have been denied you, or extended to you that cause you difficulties? Could you not have lobbied the relevant MEP if you had a concern? Thanks again for answering | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"Brits never got to vote on any treaty or any legislation which requires constitutional change.. I voted countless times over the years in European referenda yet my British neighbours never did....whose fault is that..." Your answer is probably in the question: we can't have formal "constitutional change" as we don't have a constitution. Does the fact that you voted at every turn (which must surely be quite inefficient) make people in Ireland happier with the EU? Or is there a populist / right wing party stirring things up there as well? | |||
"Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law" " Surely you had the chance to vote on your MEP? And you can vote them out? Slightly different process, but still democratic, surely? | |||
| |||
"Hilarious, I think this has got to be the most patronising thread I've ever seen. Being interviewed and questioned by somebody with a superior viewpoint who can't quite understand what they percieve to be "the wrong one". Fantastic. " I have to agree with your sentiment, and I voted remain! I don't think people should have to justify how they vote. | |||
"Hi We were both Remainers. S campaigned in the last couple of weeks and it is S doing the posting here. Neither of us (or our friends or social media friends) understand why people voted leave yet 17 million people did so I want to try and understand why, as I am clearly out of touch with over half the population. I was wondering if a small number of Leavers would have time to explain to me why they voted the way they did, and answer my questions (which will hopefully be searching and challenging, but not rude or offensive) about their reasons? Thanks in advance S " I am passionately pro a federal Europe. I reluctantly voted out. My reasons were two fold, firstly after living through all our membership of the EEC and EU I have come to the conclusion that DeGaul was right when he originaly vetoed UK membership of the EEC we have never been anything more than reluctant partners and whenever we have a Tory government they do everything they can to sabotage progress to political and economic union in the EU while blaming the EU for any domestic problems. Therefore we are not good for Europe. Secondly listening to all the lies told by both sides of the debate and the way they have been lapped up by the population, both during the campaign and before, I reached the conclusion that we and our politicians need to be made take responsibility for our decisions and the only way to do that is to remove the continual excuse of its Brussels fault. | |||
"Thank you for taking the time to do this. Not sure I understand what your plan is going forward, though it looks from the first paragraph like it could be to remain in the EEA (the Norway option) is that correct? The next part of your message seems to concern itself with perceived historical bullying (some examples would be good here - do you have any?). I think it was under Thatcher that we saw the formation of what you think of as a European Parliament. Whether I am right or wrong the decision was surely made by our government of the day, who we would have voted for. You seem to hope for the break-up of the rest of Europe, and then the reforming of a market that somehow forms itself without any bureaucrats. Surely if there is a market it has to be formed, maintained, have its rules enforced? Can this be done without bureaucrats? I have to say I find your statement "I guarantee they would take us back with open arms whenever it suited us and under our terms" pretty mystifying. I am not aware that there is any agreement amongst the Leavers about what terms are satisfactory, and I can't see how you can speak for the EU. This is surely just unsubstantiated bluster, no? I get the bit about long term rewards possibly being better than short term pain, but I have not seen anyone say what those long term rewards might be - do you know what we are missing out on as part of Europe? Has it a greater value than what we get from Europe? Once again thanks for answering - I am sure I will understand eventually if I keep at it." You asked and I told you. It's all opinion. Can you justify your reasoning because there is no substance behind it. Sound like the ramblings of a man man if I'm honest. | |||
"The Leave campaigns logic sounds a lot like the logic of many single men on this site. Saying we're the sixth largest economy in the world and that the EU need us to remain in the free market for their own good is no different to assuming someone has to have sex with you because you sent them a dick pic. Fingers crossed the MPs vote against any bill which repeals the European Communities Act and in doing so put all this to bed for good. " What complete and utter bollocks. I don't need to justify myself to anyone but you sir are an idiot. | |||
| |||
| |||
"Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law" Surely you had the chance to vote on your MEP? And you can vote them out? Slightly different process, but still democratic, surely?" Surely you know MEPs are there as a facade of democracy and have as much power as the house of lords do in this country Its the faceless eu commission which make eu law not the mep's you do know that don't you, surely ? | |||
| |||
| |||
"Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law" Surely you had the chance to vote on your MEP? And you can vote them out? Slightly different process, but still democratic, surely? Surely you know MEPs are there as a facade of democracy and have as much power as the house of lords do in this country Its the faceless eu commission which make eu law not the mep's you do know that don't you, surely ? "  ...this....the EU is not only non democratic, it's anti democratic....we do not vote for the decision makers and we can't vote them out either. Trading with the whole world without blocks and vetoes plus having some form of trade with Europe surely makes more economic sense but this is for our elected politicians to sort out and while everyone is throwing spanners in the works this will take longer. | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"Scotland would not get automatic rights to join the EU as had been explained elsewhere. The UK as a whole is the EU member. One out, all out applies. Scotland will be out and, if they vote to leave the UK they can apply to join the EU. IF all the remaining members approve it (Spain won't as it would give their own troublesome states fuel) AND all the articles of membership are met (they aren't) then Scotland could join the EU. There is a belief that Scotland can just slide into our empty seat. This is a massive lie and people spreading it are just as guilty as the Leave and Remain campaigns who spread theirs. " Geez Beth why didn't you text Nicola with that, it would have saved on her flight to Brussels and the arranged 5pm meetings tonight, you should contact both sky & the BBC, tell them to stop wasting their time reporting on this "non issue" event, do you really think their will be pointless talks & meetings regarding this issue if its a non starter? sorry to the OP for diverting from his initial post, I will have no further comments on his thread unless direct with him, sorry S. | |||
"Scotland would not get automatic rights to join the EU as had been explained elsewhere. The UK as a whole is the EU member. One out, all out applies. Scotland will be out and, if they vote to leave the UK they can apply to join the EU. IF all the remaining members approve it (Spain won't as it would give their own troublesome states fuel) AND all the articles of membership are met (they aren't) then Scotland could join the EU. There is a belief that Scotland can just slide into our empty seat. This is a massive lie and people spreading it are just as guilty as the Leave and Remain campaigns who spread theirs. Geez Beth why didn't you text Nicola with that, it would have saved on her flight to Brussels and the arranged 5pm meetings tonight, you should contact both sky & the BBC, tell them to stop wasting their time reporting on this "non issue" event, do you really think their will be pointless talks & meetings regarding this issue if its a non starter? sorry to the OP for diverting from his initial post, I will have no further comments on his thread unless direct with him, sorry S." I noted the media, both print and broadcast, have not covered themselves in glory with their unbiased accurate reporting. They are speculating as much as everyone else. I am basing the Spanish rejection on interviews with Spanish MEPs who have categorically said no as it would give their own Catalonia fuel for independence. Nicola is putting on a good show I must admit. | |||
| |||
"I reached the conclusion that we and our politicians need to be made take responsibility for our decisions and the only way to do that is to remove the continual excuse of its Brussels fault." Well, it got a laugh! Do you have an escape plan? | |||
"I reached the conclusion that we and our politicians need to be made take responsibility for our decisions and the only way to do that is to remove the continual excuse of its Brussels fault. Well, it got a laugh! Do you have an escape plan?" was waiting for a reply as you don't accept mail | |||
"ShamelessAndHussy Good Morning, " Good Morning to you HandInHand and thank you for all that. I have to say the democracy / transparency argument has been one that I have struggled with most and have most sympathy with. In the end it came down to three things for me: 1. Pretty much everything you say applies to the UK already and no-one gets (so) het up about that. Substitute House of Lords for Commissioner, and Senior Civil Servant for the other positions and you are not far off describing the UK set-up, which no-one seems that perturbed by, in comparison. 2. There have to be people in post who do not get re-elected every N years. These people ensure continuity and expertise (bad word I know). I assume they can all be removed from post (or moved somewhere they can do less damage) if they do a bad job, like all other employees. They do not set out to do a bad job. The alternative is what we do with ministers - appoint people who haven't got a clue to the top job for just long enough to find their arse with both hands before they are shuffled off. We can get away with that only with the stability the civil servants bring. 3. A judgement call about whether this lack of transparent accountability was a bad enough thing to risk the union, the (already dodgy) economy, European stability etc. I assume you would acknowledge that we have to have laws? Would you go as far as to think that there are potential efficiencies in having the drafting of them shared by many people with broadly similar aims? The laws are scrutinised by the European Parliament, which we do elect part of (I believe a disproportionately large part). In the UK we have had two problems with this: a lack of engagement with Euro elections; many of our MEPs belong to a party whose stated objective is to being down the institution in which they sit, so they don't effectively represent us. But we voted them in, so we can't bleat too much about the UK not getting enough of a voice, surely? Particularly in fisheries, where the voting record of the UKIP MEPs and the attendance record our representative on the committee (one N Farage) was pitiful. (See http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/farage%E2%80%99s-voting-record-fishing-%E2%80%98makes-mockery%E2%80%99-new-election-poster-20150408 for the Greenpeace take on this) So it seems that this Fishery problem, at least recently, can be laid down at our door - for voting in crap (admittedly deliberately) MEPs. Democracy in action, surely? Thanks for taking the time. I learnt a lot from your post, and agreed with more than I expected to. | |||
| |||
"The EU GDP has stayed stagnant for the past 10 years. UK stand to lose 1% of GDP by leaving EU but stand to gain 10% growth in GDP by being free of restraint to trade with the rest of the world. Neither the Remain camp or the exit camp produced the figures, but they are in this YouTube clip. http://youtu.be/i9cLwoTkWes Hope you can read subtitles, this guy talks fast" It's OK, I speak (slow) Italian. I loved the bit where he said that once we have voted out of Europe UKIP disappears and no right wing party appears to take its place. So do all the racists just pack up and leave? He was strong on the global economic potential - didn't say anything about how long it will take us to get there (and whether the world will look the same when we arrive). Thanks for pointing me to it - first detailed pro-Brexit view from abroad I have seen. | |||
"Surely you know MEPs are there as a facade of democracy and have as much power as the house of lords do in this country Its the faceless eu commission which make eu law not the mep's you do know that don't you, surely ? " My understanding was that the Commissioners (unelected, but subject matter 'experts' nominated one from each country and not faceless - they are here: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019_en) propose the law (presumably taking suggestions from interested parties and lobbyists). These drafts are scutinised by the relevant Council (elected ministers of the relevant department) and Parliament (elected MEPs) mostly working through committees who make recommendations. There are advantages to the fact that the Commissioners don't spend the last 18 months of a 5 year cycle positioning for re-election: they can actually get some work done. And the safeguards seem robust: but only if your MEPs turn up for work and do a good job. This seems to have been the problem. We elected crap people, now we are throwing out the institution. In fact not many of us even bothered to elect them.... | |||
"Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside" I did, and he re-iterated the point about about the opportunity that Paolo Barnard made (and made a great joke about FIFA). But nothing about how long it would take to transition there, and whether we would have got there first within the EU and without the short and medium term damage. For balance I watched Alex Salmond (who made loads more and better jokes) who brought up immigration, which was not mentioned by Hannan, or apparently the other proposers. Or by anyone so far on this thread. Which is great. But my impression while campaigning was that about 75% or more of Leave votes were from people who feared immigration. | |||
" So is it true, you want Scotland to leave, go for joint independence and EU membership, or do you wish us to remain as one united Britain Convince me " Bit off topic, but the answer is stay, and one of the reasons is one of my reasons for staying in the EU. The larger the group of people being tied together the better in my opinion, for two reasons: 1. They have a common incentive to work together to improve things, and some things, notably climate change, can only be addressed effectively by very large groupings. 2. If they all go down (which is obviously not anyone's plan), they all go down together, and economic pain is mostly felt only relative to your neighbours. You also have by far the best politicians. Even the Tories. | |||
"The main jist of the official Leave campaign seemed focussed on uncontrolled immigration," I know - and yet here there is barely a peep. Weird innit? TBH your post is preaching to the choir, and the point of this is to learn. But if you want to watch another famous lefty on Leave then Tony Benn was quite compelling as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw | |||
"The Leave campaigns logic sounds a lot like the logic of many single men on this site. Saying we're the sixth largest economy in the world and that the EU need us to remain in the free market for their own good is no different to assuming someone has to have sex with you because you sent them a dick pic. Fingers crossed the MPs vote against any bill which repeals the European Communities Act and in doing so put all this to bed for good. " . Minority rule?. Think it through | |||
| |||
"The main jist of the official Leave campaign seemed focussed on uncontrolled immigration, I know - and yet here there is barely a peep. Weird innit? TBH your post is preaching to the choir, and the point of this is to learn. But if you want to watch another famous lefty on Leave then Tony Benn was quite compelling as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw" He actually makes an appearance on the LEXIT film too... I guess if 75% of outers voted as such due to concerns about immigration - who were the remaining 25%.....the SWP don't have that many members.. | |||
"Yay! Caught up. Sorry to the (few) people who thought I was being patronising. That wasn't the intention. This was genuine homework and I have learnt a lot. Not sure I can spare the time to take this further but I have learnt a lot, and thanks for people who took the time. And I would really appreciate carrying on conversations with the people who have engaged and who I have not pissed off. I would love to know how they respond to the questions I asked. I am guessing that if I am right and 75% of the Leave vote was about immigration (which was my gut feel campaigning) I am not going to see it here. Who wants to shag a xenophobe? Well, maybe another xenophobe, so don't be shy - if one comes out there may be more!" What has concerns over immigration got to do with being xenophobic? To understand why people wanted to leave, first look at the attitudes of people like yourself. | |||
" And I guarantee they would take us back with open arms whenever it suited us and under our terms. "  you actually believe that? | |||
| |||
"Didnt wanna be ruled from brussels the money they gave cud be better of spent here fishing rights the list cud be endless" If you are concerned about fishing rights, are you aware that of the quota of fish we are allowed to catch, we actally sell 50% of our quota to other countries? To me that would suggest that we want the money more than the fish. Were you also aware that Belgium Spain and France have historic access rights to our waters, so even after we leave the EU, their boats will still be able to come and fish here? Farage was on the Common Fisheries Committee as an MEP. He only attended 1 out of 40 meetings. If he really cared about British fishing, I think he would have attended a lot more meetings. | |||
"Brits never got to vote on any treaty or any legislation which requires constitutional change.. I voted countless times over the years in European referenda yet my British neighbours never did....whose fault is that... Your answer is probably in the question: we can't have formal "constitutional change" as we don't have a constitution. Does the fact that you voted at every turn (which must surely be quite inefficient) make people in Ireland happier with the EU? Or is there a populist / right wing party stirring things up there as well? " point Is that people complain there is no democracy and blame eu when the lack of voice comes as a result of the constitutions structure. People vote for the likes Nigel farage and he abstains from votes and doesn't turn up etc. Europe is far from perfect...UK is far from perfect in fact I don't know where perfect is but to blame Europe for having no say isn't accurate. Our local mep who isn't perfect sends a quarterly publication to households outlining what's happening etc and she turns up at events etc.. | |||
"Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside" Immigration was a big issue for a substantial portion of Leave voters. Daniel Hannan is also said that he still wants Free movement of Labour as can be seen here. I can’t therefore see how this will reduce immigration. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending | |||
"Hilarious, I think this has got to be the most patronising thread I've ever seen. Being interviewed and questioned by somebody with a superior viewpoint who can't quite understand what they percieve to be "the wrong one". Fantastic. " Exactly this. I think over many threads in these forums, both before and after the referendum, many people have discussed why they would vote or had voted in a certain way. Seeing as they are obviously keen on politics I find it hard to believe the OP has not read these threads and so already knows the answer to their question. This does seem more an exercise in showing their imagined superiority in intellect. I don't know why anyone is presenting their reasons and trying to justify them on this thread, to have it all picked apart and told they are wrong. Like little kids with the worst kind of smug and patronising school teacher. | |||
"Ok, my reasons for voting to leave are too numerous to list here, I could be writing for hours but I think that basically the Out vote won because of this :- If you are unhappy, you want change. You probably don't even care what consequences that change can have. The unhappiness outweighs the risk. Unhappy people were given a chance to decide what to do and they voted to make a change. All that Remain could offer at best was more of the same, so the unhappy, disaffected or ignored, decided to make a stand and say enough! or revolt of a kind. CHANGE " Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan? There was (is?) no plan here. From what you have said this is just a shout. With pretty random (and so far quite destabilising) consequences. There is at least as much chance in things getting worse for you as in them getting better. I have seen elsewhere that people thought they had nothing to lose, so it would teach the middle classes a lesson if they buggered it up for them too. Is there any truth in that do you think? Regardless of what these people think, life in Britain for even the least happy is easy compared with many places (Syria for a start). Things can get worse. Let's hope they don't, but the initial upswing of 35% in racist attacks doesn't bode well. | |||
"Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside Immigration was a big issue for a substantial portion of Leave voters. Daniel Hannan is also said that he still wants Free movement of Labour as can be seen here. I can’t therefore see how this will reduce immigration. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending" Confusing as that was the biggest selling point and it wasn't clearly presented to the electorate that negotiating trade deals with European countries would come with a stipulation which dismantled said selling point. | |||
| |||
"Ok, my reasons for voting to leave are too numerous to list here, I could be writing for hours but I think that basically the Out vote won because of this :- If you are unhappy, you want change. You probably don't even care what consequences that change can have. The unhappiness outweighs the risk. Unhappy people were given a chance to decide what to do and they voted to make a change. All that Remain could offer at best was more of the same, so the unhappy, disaffected or ignored, decided to make a stand and say enough! or revolt of a kind. CHANGE Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan? There was (is?) no plan here. From what you have said this is just a shout. With pretty random (and so far quite destabilising) consequences. There is at least as much chance in things getting worse for you as in them getting better. I have seen elsewhere that people thought they had nothing to lose, so it would teach the middle classes a lesson if they buggered it up for them too. Is there any truth in that do you think? Regardless of what these people think, life in Britain for even the least happy is easy compared with many places (Syria for a start). Things can get worse. Let's hope they don't, but the initial upswing of 35% in racist attacks doesn't bode well. " are you taking the piss or just really thick? | |||
"It's OK, I speak (slow) Italian. I loved the bit where he said that once we have voted out of Europe UKIP disappears and no right wing party appears to take its place. So do all the racists just pack up and leave? could be comments like this that are causing huge divide. so its just UKIP that can only be racists. I grew up in Oldham, huge labour area and have to say with out doubt 1 the most racist areas in the country, can you explain this please? " I don't need to - you got my point. Just because UKIP loses it's raison d'etre doesn't mean the country won't have loads of racists. But that was what Paolo Barnard said. Such wishful thinking it beggars belief. | |||
" are you taking the piss or just really thick?" Neither - I was genuinely hoping for a reasoned response / explanation. | |||
"...Our local mep..." Do you have an MEP? I think the way we arranged things over here may be part of the problem - I have 7 MEPS. Wouldn't even know which one to. | |||
" are you taking the piss or just really thick? Neither - I was genuinely hoping for a reasoned response / explanation." and I gave you one yet you questioned/put down the reasons I gave. I wasn't saying they were right or wrong, just an opinion. As someone said earlier, your arrogance, and I would add stupidity, are beyond belief, so I will leave this thread there. Enjoy | |||
" it wasn't clearly presented to the electorate that negotiating trade deals with European countries would come with a stipulation which dismantled said selling point. " Well, it depends on the type of deal being negotiated. And as there wasn't a plan it was difficult to encounter it. Whenever said "We can be like Norway" the response came pretty quickly that that this implied the four freedoms. But the leave politicians never said we would try to be like Norway. Remember the bit in the Wembley debate when Sadiq Khan was sying "But what is the plan? A slogan is not a plan?". If you don't tell people what your plan is they can't criticise it. And the electorate seemed pretty unconcerned that there wasn't a plan. Looks like Gove and BoJo will never agree on a plan. | |||
"I think over many threads in these forums, both before and after the referendum, many people have discussed why they would vote or had voted in a certain way." Really? I thought they all degraded into a slanging match really quickly, which this has not (quite) done yet. I have been pointed to loads of interesting material that was new to me. The other threads (many of which I read) were just unsubstantiated 'facts' being lobbed over the wall by both sides, often repetitively. Again I am sorry if you are offended. I did say upfront that I would challenge, but I don't think I have been patronising. I have tried not to be. | |||
" ...yet you questioned/put down the reasons I gave. I wasn't saying they were right or wrong, just an opinion. As someone said earlier, your arrogance, and I would add stupidity, are beyond belief, so I will leave this thread there. Enjoy" Hi I did start off by saying I was hoping people would "answer my questions (which will hopefully be searching and challenging, but not rude or offensive)" Obviously you changed you mind about doing that. Thanks for your input anyway - it was enlightening. | |||
"Yay! I am guessing that if I am right and 75% of the Leave vote was about immigration (which was my gut feel campaigning) I am not going to see it here. Who wants to shag a xenophobe? !" YES you are right, you are right in the fact YOU are guessing either that or the 75% are down South and the 25% are fully up in Scotland because every Scot I have spoken to has said the main reason they voted Leave was due to a Brussels take over I am Guessing you never ventured up to Scotland to campaign and you never spoke to the Scots.  | |||
"Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan? There was (is?) no plan here. From what you have said this is just a shout. With pretty random (and so far quite destabilising) consequences. There is at least as much chance in things getting worse for you as in them getting better. " of course there is a bloody plan, The Government has a contingency plan, same as the Bank of England does and Osborne does, they may appear idiots but they are not. Cameron is being used as a scape goat, this is a front and with this front it has given them time for article 50. Do you really think they are going to open up to the public which in turn will give EU advanced notice of what is going on, come on, you are smarter than that, all good things come to those who wait. | |||
"Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan? There was (is?) no plan here. From what you have said this is just a shout. With pretty random (and so far quite destabilising) consequences. There is at least as much chance in things getting worse for you as in them getting better. of course there is a bloody plan, The Government has a contingency plan, same as the Bank of England does and Osborne does, they may appear idiots but they are not. Cameron is being used as a scape goat, this is a front and with this front it has given them time for article 50. Do you really think they are going to open up to the public which in turn will give EU advanced notice of what is going on, come on, you are smarter than that, all good things come to those who wait." What's the plan then? Looks like chaos from where I'm sat  | |||
| |||
"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature! I'm out, but not without having had some benefit." you never did say where your campaign was, and how do you expect people to communicate with you when you block people from mailing you think about it before you go | |||
"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature! I'm out, but not without having had some benefit." This is the problem - Brexoteers are still crowing and laughing at getting one up on Johnnie Foreigner without actually facing the reality that now confronts us | |||
"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature! I'm out, but not without having had some benefit. This is the problem - Brexoteers are still crowing and laughing at getting one up on Johnnie Foreigner without actually facing the reality that now confronts us" come on Joe; you need to change your profile you need to swap the word intelligent to pessimist | |||
"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature! I'm out, but not without having had some benefit. This is the problem - Brexoteers are still crowing and laughing at getting one up on Johnnie Foreigner without actually facing the reality that now confronts us come on Joe; you need to change your profile you need to swap the word intelligent to pessimist " Try "realist"... Now you have the result you wanted you would do better to help think about a solution than crow and laugh  | |||
" Try "realist"... Now you have the result you wanted you would do better to help think about a solution than crow and laugh "There already is a solution Joe, you are just so blind you don't see it try having some faith in the British Government if not the people of Britain it appears you have given up and are begging the EU for forgiveness already before talks begin, think this is the last reply I make to you Joe, as I feel you are a disappointment. sad to say.  | |||
" Try "realist"... Now you have the result you wanted you would do better to help think about a solution than crow and laugh
There already is a solution Joe, you are just so blind you don't see it
try having some faith in the British Government if not the people of Britain
it appears you have given up and are begging the EU for forgiveness already before talks begin, think this is the last reply I make to you Joe, as I feel you are a disappointment.
sad to say. "I am a disappointment? LOL What government? I think we're looking for leaders atm, and ones with ideas might be helpful... Just sayin' | |||
