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Hashem Abedi , another attack on prison staff
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How the fuck does this happen again?
How is a extremely violent prisoner allowed access to weapons and cooking facilities to allow heating up of oil in a supposedly secure unit housing dangerous extremists, giving him the ability to carry out ANOTHER attack on prison staff?
What the fuck is wrong with the system that's gone so soft that it's the prisoners who run prisoners not staff.
Apologists and soft do-gooders ready to jump forward to defend them creating a system of rewards and soft approach.
It's failed and failing, shocking neglect by the previous government resulting in overcrowding and shocking staff morale and retention.
CHANGE IS NEEDED, extreme harsh changes actual deterrent to put fear into getting sent to jail.
More isolation and segregation of group's not allowing gangs to form.
We need modern new prisons designed to cope with the type and volume of criminals. |
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And how is it that extremists are still allowed to mix with other extremities in jail?
The law seems more interested in protecting the rights of prisoners instead of victim's,the innocent and staff.
It's not a deterrent.
Read the full story on the BBC |
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It's the preachers of hate's fault that corrupts these mentally ill people.
I don't profess to know what the answer is but how this person is still taking up precious oxygen is in itself a testament to the mercy and patience of our civilised society. |
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Prisons have become the breeding grounds for extremism in all creeds and colours. Gangs have always formed on the inside. You can’t put everyone in solitary. Keeping the most violent ones away from sharp tools should be a given though. |
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Anyone associated to hate groups like the muslim brotherhood or extreme far right groups etc should be kept in isolation and if there sick twisted ideas are not being n line with our way of living they should be housed out of the Uk, Im sure we could build some prisons on a isolated island somewhere |
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"Prisons have become the breeding grounds for extremism in all creeds and colours. Gangs have always formed on the inside. You can’t put everyone in solitary. Keeping the most violent ones away from sharp tools should be a given though."
I don't expect everyone to be put in isolation but definitely more areas segregated into smaller groups.
And I definitely don't think that someone should be able to attack guards once let alone twice in a short space of time.
If imagine being a prison guard to be about one of the most stressful Jobs available.
|
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"Execute them publicly, I would pop down to the capital to see terrorists, pedos and child killers strung up.
Why would you want to see another human being die ?
"
And I have said before I'll happily kick the stool out from underneath him. |
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 |
By *otMe66Man 3 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Execute them publicly, I would pop down to the capital to see terrorists, pedos and child killers strung up.
Why would you want to see another human being die ?
"
Is that a question that should be asked of the terrorist who helped kill 22 innocent people, and is now maiming and trying to kill the people around him in prison? The virtue needs to be left at the door in some circumstances, it allows people to feel heard not misunderstood. |
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"
Is that a question that should be asked of the terrorist who helped kill 22 innocent people, and is now maiming and trying to kill the people around him in prison? The virtue needs to be left at the door in some circumstances, it allows people to feel heard not misunderstood. "
You're one raising the virtue signalling. I merely asked why the poster wanted to see another human die.
It's actually a psychological question. No different to what a clinical psychologist might ask someone in fact.
|
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"
Is that a question that should be asked of the terrorist who helped kill 22 innocent people, and is now maiming and trying to kill the people around him in prison? The virtue needs to be left at the door in some circumstances, it allows people to feel heard not misunderstood.
You're one raising the virtue signalling. I merely asked why the poster wanted to see another human die.
It's actually a psychological question. No different to what a clinical psychologist might ask someone in fact.
"
I gather you have a different view to my answer to your question, a question to you, how would you treat wronguns ie terrorists Peter files and child killers.? |
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"
Is that a question that should be asked of the terrorist who helped kill 22 innocent people, and is now maiming and trying to kill the people around him in prison? The virtue needs to be left at the door in some circumstances, it allows people to feel heard not misunderstood.
You're one raising the virtue signalling. I merely asked why the poster wanted to see another human die.
It's actually a psychological question. No different to what a clinical psychologist might ask someone in fact.
I gather you have a different view to my answer to your question, a question to you, how would you treat wronguns ie terrorists Peter files and child killers.?"
I'd jail the first of those for life and extermination for the other two |
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"
I gather you have a different view to my answer to your question, a question to you, how would you treat wronguns ie terrorists Peter files and child killers.?"
Nope, you answered fairly and honestly, thank you. That's all I wanted to know.
.
With regards to myself ? How would I treat them ? That's already been decided by the Judge who is empowered and invested with the ability and authority to do so. |
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"
I gather you have a different view to my answer to your question, a question to you, how would you treat wronguns ie terrorists Peter files and child killers.?
Nope, you answered fairly and honestly, thank you. That's all I wanted to know.
.
With regards to myself ? How would I treat them ? That's already been decided by the Judge who is empowered and invested with the ability and authority to do so. "
You would have no objection for the penalty of death for wronguns if it was bought back and a judge ordered it to be carried out. |
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|
By *otMe66Man 3 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"
Is that a question that should be asked of the terrorist who helped kill 22 innocent people, and is now maiming and trying to kill the people around him in prison? The virtue needs to be left at the door in some circumstances, it allows people to feel heard not misunderstood.
You're one raising the virtue signalling. I merely asked why the poster wanted to see another human die.
It's actually a psychological question. No different to what a clinical psychologist might ask someone in fact.
"
Sometimes it is best to let people express their views rather than challenge them. |
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"
You would have no objection for the penalty of death for wronguns if it was bought back and a judge ordered it to be carried out."
If a judge ordered it to be carried out, it would mean that such a request had made it in to the legal system and statue books, by dint of overwhelming public will and support. That is their prerogative.
.
My prerogative is to support life incarceration, but not state-sponsored execution.
|
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"Anyone associated to hate groups like the muslim brotherhood or extreme far right groups etc should be kept in isolation and if there sick twisted ideas are not being n line with our way of living they should be housed out of the Uk, Im sure we could build some prisons on a isolated island somewhere "
Like Australia  |
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"Anyone associated to hate groups like the muslim brotherhood or extreme far right groups etc should be kept in isolation and if there sick twisted ideas are not being n line with our way of living they should be housed out of the Uk, Im sure we could build some prisons on a isolated island somewhere
Like Australia "
Isn’t the UK pretty much prison island for Islamic extremists nowadays?
If nobody else will have them they come to the UK. |
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I've pretty much advocated for the death penalty for serial killers for a very long time. However, with stuff continuously arising in the Letby case casting doubt, I've had to review my thoughts.
If we were ever to have the death penalty returned, we'd have to have a death row for time to appeal etc.
In the meantime, we have our current system and that means protecting the guards. |
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"Hypn@tism, put hypn@tists to good use and hypn@tise the buggers so they behave.
They've obviously lost their minds already so nothing lost, only a human n prison that behaves is gained.
"
Really made me chuckle.... |
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Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security." |
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"Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security.""
Like I said at the start of this thread.
Prison needs to be seen as a deterrent not an easy ride.
This is the second such incident he's been involved in.
Lack of funding and investment in the prison service for probably 30 years or more.
Too much emphasis on keeping prisoners happy, comfortable and ensuring that their"Human rights " are kept up to a standard that's not befitting of violent and dangerous criminals.
To much power given to the criminal protection service and do gooders more interested in protecting the criminals instead of the victims.
They are sub human animals who don't deserve the right to be given the freedom that they currently have.
Stop the apologists and sympathizers getting involved.
Hard time should be hard time and in cases where guilt is 100% undeniable such as this asshole and the Lee Rigby killers Death Sentence.
Sorry we have been too soft for too long this country is a haven for antisocial and criminal behaviour it's got to stop. |
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"Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security."
Like I said at the start of this thread.
Prison needs to be seen as a deterrent not an easy ride.
This is the second such incident he's been involved in.
Lack of funding and investment in the prison service for probably 30 years or more.
Too much emphasis on keeping prisoners happy, comfortable and ensuring that their"Human rights " are kept up to a standard that's not befitting of violent and dangerous criminals.
To much power given to the criminal protection service and do gooders more interested in protecting the criminals instead of the victims.
They are sub human animals who don't deserve the right to be given the freedom that they currently have.
Stop the apologists and sympathizers getting involved.
Hard time should be hard time and in cases where guilt is 100% undeniable such as this asshole and the Lee Rigby killers Death Sentence.
Sorry we have been too soft for too long this country is a haven for antisocial and criminal behaviour it's got to stop."
Return of the bucket! Slopping out! Victoriana style prisons. I imagine prison is less of a punishment than grounding your naughty child. |
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"Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security."
Like I said at the start of this thread.
Prison needs to be seen as a deterrent not an easy ride.
This is the second such incident he's been involved in.
Lack of funding and investment in the prison service for probably 30 years or more.
Too much emphasis on keeping prisoners happy, comfortable and ensuring that their"Human rights " are kept up to a standard that's not befitting of violent and dangerous criminals.
To much power given to the criminal protection service and do gooders more interested in protecting the criminals instead of the victims.
They are sub human animals who don't deserve the right to be given the freedom that they currently have.
Stop the apologists and sympathizers getting involved.
Hard time should be hard time and in cases where guilt is 100% undeniable such as this asshole and the Lee Rigby killers Death Sentence.
Sorry we have been too soft for too long this country is a haven for antisocial and criminal behaviour it's got to stop."
Dostoyevsky wrote that "the degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
.
A certain Mr Churchill, who was Home Sec at the time in 1910 said,
.
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of any country. A calm, dispassionate recognition of the rights of the accused and even of the convicted criminal, … tireless efforts towards the discovery of curative and re-generative processes; unfailing faith that there is a treasure, if you can only find it, in the heart of every man. These are the symbols which, in the treatment of crime and the criminal, mark and measure the stored-up strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living virtue within it."
.
There is a very well written study by Michael Tonry (formerly professor of law and public policy and director of the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge University), called "Punishments, Politics, and Prisons in Western Countries".
.
It is a fascinating and deep study in to the history of prisons in various countries, how they came about (The Quakers, with "penitentiaries". The whole concept was to serve "Penance" as a basis for moral reformation. The idea of "do-gooders" is not new at all. It's why the earliest prisons were created in fact.
.
The study goes on to talk about the future of prisons, and it's a very insightful piece of work. |
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"Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security."
Like I said at the start of this thread.
Prison needs to be seen as a deterrent not an easy ride.
This is the second such incident he's been involved in.
Lack of funding and investment in the prison service for probably 30 years or more.
Too much emphasis on keeping prisoners happy, comfortable and ensuring that their"Human rights " are kept up to a standard that's not befitting of violent and dangerous criminals.
To much power given to the criminal protection service and do gooders more interested in protecting the criminals instead of the victims.
They are sub human animals who don't deserve the right to be given the freedom that they currently have.
Stop the apologists and sympathizers getting involved.
Hard time should be hard time and in cases where guilt is 100% undeniable such as this asshole and the Lee Rigby killers Death Sentence.
Sorry we have been too soft for too long this country is a haven for antisocial and criminal behaviour it's got to stop.
Dostoyevsky wrote that "the degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
.
A certain Mr Churchill, who was Home Sec at the time in 1910 said,
.
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of any country. A calm, dispassionate recognition of the rights of the accused and even of the convicted criminal, … tireless efforts towards the discovery of curative and re-generative processes; unfailing faith that there is a treasure, if you can only find it, in the heart of every man. These are the symbols which, in the treatment of crime and the criminal, mark and measure the stored-up strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living virtue within it."
.
There is a very well written study by Michael Tonry (formerly professor of law and public policy and director of the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge University), called "Punishments, Politics, and Prisons in Western Countries".
.
It is a fascinating and deep study in to the history of prisons in various countries, how they came about (The Quakers, with "penitentiaries". The whole concept was to serve "Penance" as a basis for moral reformation. The idea of "do-gooders" is not new at all. It's why the earliest prisons were created in fact.
.
The study goes on to talk about the future of prisons, and it's a very insightful piece of work."
Lovely...but since the death penalty isn't coming back, let's make prison time for dangerous offenders the hardest time there is |
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"Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security."
Like I said at the start of this thread.
Prison needs to be seen as a deterrent not an easy ride.
This is the second such incident he's been involved in.
Lack of funding and investment in the prison service for probably 30 years or more.
Too much emphasis on keeping prisoners happy, comfortable and ensuring that their"Human rights " are kept up to a standard that's not befitting of violent and dangerous criminals.
To much power given to the criminal protection service and do gooders more interested in protecting the criminals instead of the victims.
They are sub human animals who don't deserve the right to be given the freedom that they currently have.
Stop the apologists and sympathizers getting involved.
Hard time should be hard time and in cases where guilt is 100% undeniable such as this asshole and the Lee Rigby killers Death Sentence.
Sorry we have been too soft for too long this country is a haven for antisocial and criminal behaviour it's got to stop.
Dostoyevsky wrote that "the degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
.
A certain Mr Churchill, who was Home Sec at the time in 1910 said,
.
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of any country. A calm, dispassionate recognition of the rights of the accused and even of the convicted criminal, … tireless efforts towards the discovery of curative and re-generative processes; unfailing faith that there is a treasure, if you can only find it, in the heart of every man. These are the symbols which, in the treatment of crime and the criminal, mark and measure the stored-up strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living virtue within it."
.
There is a very well written study by Michael Tonry (formerly professor of law and public policy and director of the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge University), called "Punishments, Politics, and Prisons in Western Countries".
.
It is a fascinating and deep study in to the history of prisons in various countries, how they came about (The Quakers, with "penitentiaries". The whole concept was to serve "Penance" as a basis for moral reformation. The idea of "do-gooders" is not new at all. It's why the earliest prisons were created in fact.
.
The study goes on to talk about the future of prisons, and it's a very insightful piece of work.
Lovely...but since the death penalty isn't coming back, let's make prison time for dangerous offenders the hardest time there is"
Lovely, but then that makes reformation even more unlikely, if not impossible, does it not ? |
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"Very strong words from Manchester Arena survivor Martin Hibbert:
"Let's call this what it is: a catastrophic failure of your duty to protect prison staff and the public from an unrepentant terrorist.
"Not only was Abedi allowed the freedom to move around and use facilities that should never be available to someone like him - he was able to track and target three prison guards using boiling oil and homemade weapons.
"I was led to believe that people like him - mass murderers, terrorists - would face a regime of strict control and zero comfort. I was told justice would be served.
"What I see now is not justice. It's a shameful lack of accountability and basic prison security."
Like I said at the start of this thread.
Prison needs to be seen as a deterrent not an easy ride.
This is the second such incident he's been involved in.
Lack of funding and investment in the prison service for probably 30 years or more.
Too much emphasis on keeping prisoners happy, comfortable and ensuring that their"Human rights " are kept up to a standard that's not befitting of violent and dangerous criminals.
To much power given to the criminal protection service and do gooders more interested in protecting the criminals instead of the victims.
They are sub human animals who don't deserve the right to be given the freedom that they currently have.
Stop the apologists and sympathizers getting involved.
Hard time should be hard time and in cases where guilt is 100% undeniable such as this asshole and the Lee Rigby killers Death Sentence.
Sorry we have been too soft for too long this country is a haven for antisocial and criminal behaviour it's got to stop.
Dostoyevsky wrote that "the degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
.
A certain Mr Churchill, who was Home Sec at the time in 1910 said,
.
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of any country. A calm, dispassionate recognition of the rights of the accused and even of the convicted criminal, … tireless efforts towards the discovery of curative and re-generative processes; unfailing faith that there is a treasure, if you can only find it, in the heart of every man. These are the symbols which, in the treatment of crime and the criminal, mark and measure the stored-up strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living virtue within it."
.
There is a very well written study by Michael Tonry (formerly professor of law and public policy and director of the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge University), called "Punishments, Politics, and Prisons in Western Countries".
.
It is a fascinating and deep study in to the history of prisons in various countries, how they came about (The Quakers, with "penitentiaries". The whole concept was to serve "Penance" as a basis for moral reformation. The idea of "do-gooders" is not new at all. It's why the earliest prisons were created in fact.
.
The study goes on to talk about the future of prisons, and it's a very insightful piece of work."
Different time different era.
Not relevant to today |
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In this case I don't think funding was an issue - he was in a small specialist unit. A bigger issue is that there are now so many dangerous Islamist prisoners that it's not possible to separate them all, and the prisons end up making concessions to keep the peace. |
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"Different time different era.
Not relevant to today "
I agree Churchill and prior to that (Quakers) was indeed a different era.
.
Prof. Michael Tonry is contemporary however, at least up to 2020/2021 when he retired. One of the leading experts in Criminal Law worldwide. |
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