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Stalling electric vehicle sales.
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The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars.
The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it.
Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment.
Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s |
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I strongly suspect she will increase the cost of running ICE vehicles rather than reducing the cost of electric ones.
We’ll find out soon however getting rid of the 5p a litre fuel duty cut and reinstating the fuel duty escalator are obvious temptations.
Labour’s fanatical obsession with net zero will cost us all dearly. |
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Net zero is such a con. Just have a look at the manufacturing process of an electric car. Also have a look at the manufacturing process for the batteries. Have a look at the weight of these cars and how much damage they will do to the already shocking road system…
I’m sick of being told about Net zero by that plank Miliband and the MSM. |
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By *otMe66Man 7 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Net zero is such a con. Just have a look at the manufacturing process of an electric car. Also have a look at the manufacturing process for the batteries. Have a look at the weight of these cars and how much damage they will do to the already shocking road system…
I’m sick of being told about Net zero by that plank Miliband and the MSM."
Agreed, renewable energy will reduce some emissions in energy production, but it doesn’t eliminate the emissions used with other parts of the process like manufacturing materials, transportation, or any emissions that can’t be mitigated directly. Meaning, renewable energy reduces the carbon footprint but doesn’t make it anywhere near zero.
Stretching definitions, playing with words … |
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars.
The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it.
Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment.
Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s "
There are 2 reasons I wouldn’t have an EV. The first is range, which gets demonstrably worse in cold weather. The second is the lack of charging infrastructure (and do I really want to hang around for 2 hours to recharge even if I could find a rapid charger to complete my journey compared to a couple of minutes to refill the tank?)
Then you get to the arguments about the virtue signalling of it all when you look at the supply chain carbon emissions and the carbon that would be generated in producing the electricity needed to charge the cars.
The interesting thing is the behaviour of the middle market car sellers. I don’t know if people have twigged that the big auction houses like BCA no longer allow private buyers to bid, and have created reseller brands like Cazoo as an outlet? Do a bit of google earth image searching of former RAF airfields - you’ll see stockpiles of thousands of cars, vans and trucks that are owned by the leasing companies being witheld from the market to reduce supply and inflate the market value. This is going to become the gambit as the net zero madness truely takes hold. |
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22 billion set for "carbon capture" projects. Is any other country wasting money like this? Planting trees would be cheaper and capture more if they are obsessed with this sort of thing. This lot are becoming stranger as time goes on and it's us that will pay for it. To get back on topic, due to spending on this and other 'net zero' things, there will be no proper infastructure to support ev. |
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"Net zero is such a con. Just have a look at the manufacturing process of an electric car. Also have a look at the manufacturing process for the batteries. Have a look at the weight of these cars and how much damage they will do to the already shocking road system…
I’m sick of being told about Net zero by that plank Miliband and the MSM."
In fairness, people who watch GBNews, read the Daily Mail etc they use the phrase "Net Zero" about 1,000,000,000,000,000 times more than everyone else combined. Approx. |
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By *otMe66Man 7 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later."
The message and understanding of the strategy needs to be better mapped out and not mixed up with arbitrary figures, milestones and hysterical outcomes.
People will get onboard when they can understand, JSO is not helping in that space. |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later."
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later.
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference "
Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later.
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference
Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. "
I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals
2023 was the warmest year on record
10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later.
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference
Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change.
I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals
2023 was the warmest year on record
10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 "
Which records are you referring to?
Who gave the information?
At what point in history did they use as the start date for recording the temperature?
How many global recording stations were active at the start date compared to now?
What global positions didn't have but now have recording stations?
Or are you just parroting what you heard on "da newz" |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later.
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference
Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change.
I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals
2023 was the warmest year on record
10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023
Which records are you referring to?
Who gave the information?
At what point in history did they use as the start date for recording the temperature?
How many global recording stations were active at the start date compared to now?
What global positions didn't have but now have recording stations?
Or are you just parroting what you heard on "da newz""
People with any scientific knowledge understand how to extrapolate incomplete data. It's a science in itself and very reliable. |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later.
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference
Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change.
I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals
2023 was the warmest year on record
10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023
Which records are you referring to?
Who gave the information?
At what point in history did they use as the start date for recording the temperature?
How many global recording stations were active at the start date compared to now?
What global positions didn't have but now have recording stations?
Or are you just parroting what you heard on "da newz"
People with any scientific knowledge understand how to extrapolate incomplete data. It's a science in itself and very reliable."
That doesn't answer my questions. |
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By *959femxCouple 7 weeks ago
Weston super mare |
So we go nett zero while buying more and more product from China etc etc but no matter eh ? We can all feel so virtuous in the UK . The “ Science “ makes me laugh. The “Science “ in the 70s told us the world’s oil reserves would be exhausted by the year 2000 amongst a lot of other things that didn’t happen, and the world climate was cyclical and the cycle was heading to another ice age
Known “ Science “ can be obsolete history in the blink of an eye . |
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"So we go nett zero while buying more and more product from China etc etc but no matter eh ? We can all feel so virtuous in the UK . The “ Science “ makes me laugh. The “Science “ in the 70s told us the world’s oil reserves would be exhausted by the year 2000 amongst a lot of other things that didn’t happen, and the world climate was cyclical and the cycle was heading to another ice age
Known “ Science “ can be obsolete history in the blink of an eye . "
You don't need to be a scientist to understand this stuff. Common sense alone tells us that if you release the energy and associated by-products stored in coal and oil over millions of years in a space of a few hundred years there likely to be drastic consequences. |
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By *959femxCouple 7 weeks ago
Weston super mare |
No one wants to think about it but anyone with more than 3 brain cells knows deep down that without some cosmic event, unstoppable disease or global nuclear war over population will decide the future of our planet . If the 1st three don’t get us nature will decide. |
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later.
2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism
Doubtful this will make any difference
Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change.
I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals
2023 was the warmest year on record
10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 "
I agree. We need to do a lot more.
Side note, even if we stop releasing greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere, it will take time for the warming to slow down. |
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"So we go nett zero while buying more and more product from China etc etc but no matter eh ? We can all feel so virtuous in the UK . The “ Science “ makes me laugh. The “Science “ in the 70s told us the world’s oil reserves would be exhausted by the year 2000 amongst a lot of other things that didn’t happen, and the world climate was cyclical and the cycle was heading to another ice age
Known “ Science “ can be obsolete history in the blink of an eye . "
I assume this is a parody post?
But this is a good, if overblown, example of the gross misunderstanding of what science and scientific method is. |
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By *idanMan 7 weeks ago
borehamwood |
Would the money thrown at developing BEVs, which appears to have been politics led, have been better invested in further refining what we already had?
I have an e-bike which is fantastic but not convinced a battery is the right solution for propelling cars. |
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"Would the money thrown at developing BEVs, which appears to have been politics led, have been better invested in further refining what we already had?
I have an e-bike which is fantastic but not convinced a battery is the right solution for propelling cars. "
Estimated 1.47 billion cars on the world’s roads and 700 million motorcycles, 23.7 million new commercial vehicles built annually, 90,000 commercial ships of more than 100 tonnes. NATO alone has 400,000 diesel vehicles.
Add other ICE powered transportation . I think what is needed to reduce transportation emissions is grossly under estimated.
Scientists say pollutants from vehicle tyres is 1000 times higher than exhaust emissions (emission analytics). So this also needs addressing. |
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No matter how rigorous the science is, there will always be sceptics or deniers. Or those in denial, shall we say.
.
So you really have 3 choices.
.
1.Support initiatives to assist in combating climate change.
2. Ignore it and hope it goes away.
3. Actively fight against it.
If Climate Change is going to be as bad as the science indicates, then you only have a 1 in 3 chance of choosing the correct path to try and address it.
If you choose 1 and it helps avert the worst, then hurrah, you chose well.
If you chose 2 or 3, then you are part of the problem, sadly.
.
If Climate Change doesn't pan out the way the science indicates, but you chose 1, then whilst there was a cost or sacrifice, your effort still helped (and may have helped avert it anyway).
If you chose 2 or 3, you ignored or fought against something that did not transpire, which is akin to shadow-boxing. You were lucky the shadow didn't fight back.
The problem being, if the shadow is real and does fight back, we and subsequent generations are fucked if we chose 2 or 3...in any of the 2 scenarios outlined above.
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By *lex46TV/TS 7 weeks ago
Near Wells |
"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later."
Well I’ve done my bit then. No kids and obviously no grandkids either. That’s me helping to get to save the planet. |
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"No matter how rigorous the science is, there will always be sceptics or deniers. Or those in denial, shall we say.
.
So you really have 3 choices.
.
1.Support initiatives to assist in combating climate change.
2. Ignore it and hope it goes away.
3. Actively fight against it.
If Climate Change is going to be as bad as the science indicates, then you only have a 1 in 3 chance of choosing the correct path to try and address it.
If you choose 1 and it helps avert the worst, then hurrah, you chose well.
If you chose 2 or 3, then you are part of the problem, sadly.
.
If Climate Change doesn't pan out the way the science indicates, but you chose 1, then whilst there was a cost or sacrifice, your effort still helped (and may have helped avert it anyway).
If you chose 2 or 3, you ignored or fought against something that did not transpire, which is akin to shadow-boxing. You were lucky the shadow didn't fight back.
The problem being, if the shadow is real and does fight back, we and subsequent generations are fucked if we chose 2 or 3...in any of the 2 scenarios outlined above.
"
"If Climate Change doesn't pan out the way the science indicates, but you chose 1, then whilst there was a cost or sacrifice".
In many/most instances, taking action is economically better in the medium/long term. Such as moving away from electricity generated from fossil fuels. |
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If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG.
Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG.
It's an absolute scam. |
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s?"
Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid. |
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s?
Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid."
Or fuel supplies  |
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If we really want to save the planet, reduce the population. Stop all overseas aid to fsmine areas, encourage people to eat, drink & smoke to excess & stop finding cures to illness. Just get the numbers down, see how keen people are to help then. |
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I'm old enough to remember a dispute with tanker drivers that caused fuel shortages at the pumps....
"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s?
Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid."
|
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"I'm old enough to remember a dispute with tanker drivers that caused fuel shortages at the pumps....
I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s?
Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid."
It was not a dispute with tanker drivers, I was one of tbose drivers. Our depots were blockaded & we were prevented from going out on the road safely |
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s?
Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid.
Or fuel supplies "
Unless of course we transition off fossil fuels. Win/win/win. |
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I'm not expecting that they will be giving much away in this year. They may promise more in the future but she will be weakening her argument for taking the WFA away from pensioners if she finds cash now to splurge.
We have to stop oil use ASAP and car changeover can be a step closer to this. We should not be drilling at new fields. |
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"The uk is crippling its self with net zero will china doesnt bother its ass "
This is inaccurate.
"China's $890bn investment in clean-energy sectors is almost as large as total global investments in fossil fuel supply in 2023 – and similar to the GDP of Switzerland or Turkey. Including the value of production, clean-energy sectors contributed 11.4tn yuan ($1.6tn) to the Chinese economy in 2023, up 30% year-on-year."
From Carbonbrief website.
"
Ideally hybrids are the answer petrol or diesel with a electric motor "
Why so? |
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"The uk is crippling its self with net zero will china doesnt bother its ass
This is inaccurate.
"China's $890bn investment in clean-energy sectors is almost as large as total global investments in fossil fuel supply in 2023 – and similar to the GDP of Switzerland or Turkey. Including the value of production, clean-energy sectors contributed 11.4tn yuan ($1.6tn) to the Chinese economy in 2023, up 30% year-on-year."
From Carbonbrief website.
Ideally hybrids are the answer petrol or diesel with a electric motor
Why so?"
Hybrid just means you are transporting the weight and technology of two drive systems - one of them redundant most of the time. |
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"If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG.
Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG.
It's an absolute scam."
Dacia Spring?
Looked at one when my Sandero was in for work.
If I was looking for a new car I would consider one. At the moment, cost to change would be maybe £8k for which I would get a smaller car which has less range, is more expensive to insure, same road tax, maybe less in fuel if I charge it at home (although the Sandero does a genuine 60+ mpg).
So, when it is time to change, maybe. Although the basic Spring may not be imported into the UK. Apparently UK customers want the higher spec ones - don’t know why, I think they are stupid. |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?"
Presumably this is to protect their own manufacturers being undercut, bit like America has done. The trouble could be in retaliation from China who could put tariffs on goods going to them that are important to western manufacturers. In the end someone suffers |
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By *irldnCouple 7 weeks ago
Brighton |
"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?"
Buy European EVs? |
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By *otMe66Man 7 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?"
Where is choice if the EU are going down such a harsh road of protectionism? The EU EV's could be a bad investment, do little for progression of the tech and cost more in greenhouse gasses than a Chinese variant.
This looks to me as an autarky strategy from the EU, not surprising but worrying. |
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars.
The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it.
Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment.
Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s
There are 2 reasons I wouldn’t have an EV. The first is range, which gets demonstrably worse in cold weather. The second is the lack of charging infrastructure (and do I really want to hang around for 2 hours to recharge even if I could find a rapid charger to complete my journey compared to a couple of minutes to refill the tank?)
Then you get to the arguments about the virtue signalling of it all when you look at the supply chain carbon emissions and the carbon that would be generated in producing the electricity needed to charge the cars.
The interesting thing is the behaviour of the middle market car sellers. I don’t know if people have twigged that the big auction houses like BCA no longer allow private buyers to bid, and have created reseller brands like Cazoo as an outlet? Do a bit of google earth image searching of former RAF airfields - you’ll see stockpiles of thousands of cars, vans and trucks that are owned by the leasing companies being witheld from the market to reduce supply and inflate the market value. This is going to become the gambit as the net zero madness truely takes hold. "
Didn't Cazoo go bankrupt..? |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?"
Generally, too expensive. |
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BYD one of the biggest Chinese manufacturers are already building a European plant as I think are others, so maybe the tariff is to protect not just current European manufacturers who have been slow to adapt but also to protect EU investment in these new plants?
At a personal level over the last six years we've been removing fossil fuels as much as we can from our lives through planned obsolescence.
Oil heating went first replaced by an ASHP which on its own saved next to nothing. Then we got some solar but didn't worry about batteries & just got paid for our excess in summer to offset the heat pump in winter. Then we went from a petrol/LPG car to a leased EV & the full maintenance lease & insurance costs the same pm as our tax/maintenance/insurance of our previous vehicle. We got a specific EV (Nissan Leaf) because it was designed from day one to be capable of bidirectional charging. We got on a trial for VtoH & post trial it's still working fine.
So, upshot is we use a lot of electrical power but that's it, no oil, no gas & we now light the wood burner very occasionally because we want to, not because we need it to help our underpowered old oil system. We use what no one (currently) wants so pay 7ppu for overnight juice, it goes in the EV & the home & once our cheap period ends the EV runs the home & together with the solar we export any extra we don't need back to the grid for a profit. Now some might say that's a heck of an investment overall & yes it is, but we bought this home knowing it needed work so got it cheaper & our expenditure has been spread over six years.
Are we helping? Must be somewhere, all I know is where we used to spend annually £3k on oil,£500 on logs, £500 on electricity & £2k on petrol/LPG we now spend £1.5k which includes 12k per year in the EV.
Our actual electricity bill from April to October is £256, not per month, the whole period & that's with our heating on in April & from early September due to our location.
With some of that saving we've bought more solar panels to increase our generation, upgraded areas of poorer insulation & replaced the worst of our old single glazed windows & are about to do the next three, longer term our energy use will only go down & if you ignored fuel types & just measured it in joules of energy it already has.
Those saying what happens if the power goes off, well here we are "Islanded" meaning our solar will still work & continue to put energy into the home or our EV & also means we can still draw on the EV to run the home for at least a few days if we don't go cooking roast dinners & use the wood burner for heating, but the lights & TV's can stay on 
We don't mind doing "Our bit" as long as long term we see a benefit either financially or environmentally but preferably both.
Agree 100% with the other poster who said we are wasting our time though.
World population today 7.7bill, by 2050 10+bill. The population of the UK in the industrial revolution was less than that of London today, the population of the world was 1.2billion less than the population of India today.
To me our population growth is the real problem but outside of the Middle East conflict turning into a mini WW3 & wiping a few billion out I don't think there's a world wide answer to that one.
S |
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1. Clearly the climate is already fucked, you only have to look out of the window to see the evidence with your own eyes. Anybody that denies this is either indulging in self delusion or deliberate deception of others.
2. It's undeniable that we need to do what we can to avoid things getting worse as much as we can. You think that 45 °C heat is bad and 120 mph winds do a lot of damage? Yeah well getting just one day of 55 °C heat or one storm of 150 mph winds will make everything so far look trivial. It's not the average climate conditions that will kill us, it's the extreme events, and it only takes small amounts of extra energy in the atmosphere for the extreme events to get far more extreme.
3. Yes there is some disagreement about what the causes of climate change may be (though in actual fact among reputable scientists there is broad consensus, with just minor differences in specific details of theories) and about what the best ways might be to combat climate change (ditto). But doing nothing is not an option for anyone under 50, or anyone over 50 that has kids. If you're over 50 and hate the world anyway, then sure it doesn't matter if everything gets even more fucked, worst case you die a few years earlier and you get plenty of company from everyone else dying while civilisation crumbles.
4. Current net zero policies are almost certainly not THE answer, but are at least some kind of start.
5. Current EV technology is almost certainly not THE answer, and the price point of these vehicles means there's no way that the 50% of the population who can barely afford a third hand vauxhall will ever be able to switch to electric. It is a start, but that's all. Remember though that when mobile phones started they were large, heavy and very expensive, a status symbol more than a valid means of communication for the ordinary person. Thirty years later mobiles can be made so cheaply that almost anyone can afford one. The same has to happen to new-generation transportation.
6. Wind power is not THE answer. But it has to be part of the answer. Ditto solar. And at least these types of generator can be constructed and brought online in a reasonable time frame. Nuclear projects sound grand but they are incredibly expensive to build - and if a new nuclear project is approved TODAY, it isn't going to generate one watt of power before 2050. Hardly a solution for power shortages right now.
7. I've no idea what point number 7 has to be. Humanity as a whole has to do better though, do more, do it now. Because there won't be a later otherwise. |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?"
They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity. |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?
They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity."
Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down. |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?
They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity.
Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down."
We we priced up a Ford hybrid comparable in kit to our Leaf it was £4k dearer.
I have found that those complaining about a £30k EV are also those that would never spend £30k on a car anyway, no matter how it is powered. In my post I showed that out leased 40kw EV saves us around £4k a year. It's lease is up next October when in all liklihood we'll lease something newer but buy a used 62kw Leaf (giving us a third more energy to use/export) which can be had currently for about £9k for a high miles one so will be cheaper next year. ROI in just two years. Far better than solar & home batteries, though your work/life balance has to fit & ours does.
Here in Wales they are trying to push through huge solar & onshore wind farms to reduce its 70% generation by fossil fuels but what is not spoken about is that Wales is a nett exporter of energy & 50% of Welsh generation leaves the country. To me part of the answer isn't generating more or even generating the same but greener, it's battery storage & stop exporting out of Wales full stop. Wales could cut the use of fossil fuels within a couple of years yet not many advocate for battery farms, probably because there's less if any money to be made.
S |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?
They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity.
Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down.
We we priced up a Ford hybrid comparable in kit to our Leaf it was £4k dearer.
I have found that those complaining about a £30k EV are also those that would never spend £30k on a car anyway, no matter how it is powered. In my post I showed that out leased 40kw EV saves us around £4k a year. It's lease is up next October when in all liklihood we'll lease something newer but buy a used 62kw Leaf (giving us a third more energy to use/export) which can be had currently for about £9k for a high miles one so will be cheaper next year. ROI in just two years. Far better than solar & home batteries, though your work/life balance has to fit & ours does.
Here in Wales they are trying to push through huge solar & onshore wind farms to reduce its 70% generation by fossil fuels but what is not spoken about is that Wales is a nett exporter of energy & 50% of Welsh generation leaves the country. To me part of the answer isn't generating more or even generating the same but greener, it's battery storage & stop exporting out of Wales full stop. Wales could cut the use of fossil fuels within a couple of years yet not many advocate for battery farms, probably because there's less if any money to be made.
S"
What you're describing is 'top down' pricing by manufacturers i.e. they factor into the selling price your (lower) running costs. I'll consider an EV when they change to 'bottom up' pricing i.e. you pay for what you actually get. |
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By *irldnCouple 7 weeks ago
Brighton |
"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?
They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity."
Agreed. And infrastructure vastly improved to make them as viable as ICE. If you have a drive then no issue but terraced houses or flats? |
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What’s missing from this debate so far is the obligatory limits placed on manufacturers. This is why they are requesting the new car incentives.
‘The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) told members of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee that the market share of pure battery electric cars is expected to be 19.8% this year.
That is less than the 22% they are obligated to sell under the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate which ***sees the threshold rise year-on-year until it reaches 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035 *** when the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be prohibited.’ (Copied from RAC)
£15k fine per new ice vehicle sold over the zev mandate. |
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"What’s missing from this debate so far is the obligatory limits placed on manufacturers. This is why they are requesting the new car incentives.
‘The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) told members of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee that the market share of pure battery electric cars is expected to be 19.8% this year.
That is less than the 22% they are obligated to sell under the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate which ***sees the threshold rise year-on-year until it reaches 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035 *** when the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be prohibited.’ (Copied from RAC)
£15k fine per new ice vehicle sold over the zev mandate. "
I believe Labour are bringing the ban forward again to 2030. |
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Ev’s are not a suitable option for a single car household, I’ve tried 2 in the last few years, got rid of the first one, a mustang because it just could not manage anything like the distance quoted on a motorway drive, and then a tacan (thankfully rented as they are the quickest way to loose 100k in 2 years) again just not suitable as a daily drive on anything more than a few miles commute. As soon as you need to go any distance at motorway speeds the max distance does not get anywhere near the spec sheet. |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?"
They aren't as cheap as BYD's cars though? |
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs.
So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?
Buy European EVs?
They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity.
Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down."
The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? |
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"What’s missing from this debate so far is the obligatory limits placed on manufacturers. This is why they are requesting the new car incentives.
‘The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) told members of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee that the market share of pure battery electric cars is expected to be 19.8% this year.
That is less than the 22% they are obligated to sell under the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate which ***sees the threshold rise year-on-year until it reaches 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035 *** when the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be prohibited.’ (Copied from RAC)
£15k fine per new ice vehicle sold over the zev mandate.
I believe Labour are bringing the ban forward again to 2030."
And for motorcycles
125cc and below being banned first |
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"The uk is crippling its self with net zero will china doesnt bother its ass
Ideally hybrids are the answer petrol or diesel with a electric motor "
That old trope, yet again. Not backed up with any evidence, of course  |
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Due to the net zero policy, there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev. The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow. We already have the highest energy bills in Europe. |
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"Due to the net zero policy,
"
Which bet zero policy?
"
there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev.
"
Further up we have people worried about charging EVs with our current electricity generation methods.
"
The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow.
"
So we need hydro, biogas, clever storage solutions, and nuclear to get us over the line.
Today, 44% of our electric was generated from renewables. Imagine what we could do if we had a government free from fossil fuels company donations, that put some serious research, investment and technology.
"
We already have the highest energy bills in Europe."
 . We need to get off externally priced fossil fuels so we can bring down energy bills long term. |
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"Due to the net zero policy,
Which bet zero policy?
there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev.
Further up we have people worried about charging EVs with our current electricity generation methods.
The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow.
So we need hydro, biogas, clever storage solutions, and nuclear to get us over the line.
Today, 44% of our electric was generated from renewables. Imagine what we could do if we had a government free from fossil fuels company donations, that put some serious research, investment and technology.
We already have the highest energy bills in Europe.
. We need to get off externally priced fossil fuels so we can bring down energy bills long term. "
The real issue though is that Government do not invest our money for us, they invest it for Big Corp.
Look at Keirs 22b carbon capture project, 11b per plant. If n effect that's not "Investing in" that's "Paying for" lock, stock & barrel, yet we know from past experience that the parent company right at the top will be foreign owned & will charge US as well as anyone else who cares to pay to capture carbon in pp wants that we have likely already paid over the odds for do that they can produce profit before turning a single sod of soil.
Here in Wales Bute energy want to put of fifty turbines in Ceredigion, while at the same time saying six would produce the annual electricity use for the county..So why are we not putting up six here with battery storage?
Well when you dig further the Welsh Assy have designated the land, probably giving it away & then you find out that fifty turbines will need massive infrastructure to the National Grid by way of a new fifty two kilometer run of pylons heading south down the middle of the Teifi valley & who is the likely contract winner of this multi billion pound contract? None other than a subsidiary of the Danish parent company that owns Bute Energy, the company that think fifty turbines is better than six.
It's this that needs change, it's getting rid of this that will reduce our energy bills.
& They wonder why we think they are all brown envelope wielding scumbags.
S |
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"Due to the net zero policy, there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev. The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow. We already have the highest energy bills in Europe."
In a single hour, the amount of power from the sun that strikes the Earth is more than the entire world consumes in a year (from all other manufactured sources).
Scientists at US Department of Energy: Each hour 430 quintillion Joules of energy from the sun hits the Earth.
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"If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?"
Indeed.
Sadly the form of "Capitalism" we seem to tolerate distorts the whole point of a free-market by using trade tariffs and protectionism.
This essentially means our free choice as consumers is anything but free, especially when things are "ring-fenced" in favour of our own market.
The market and the consumers should decide, not political interference and protectionism.
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By *ronisMan 7 weeks ago
Edinburgh |
"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars.
The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it.
Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment.
Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s "
Net zero. What a lot of bs. What planet do the nitwits who think of this rubbish live on?
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars.
The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it.
Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment.
Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s
Net zero. What a lot of bs. What planet do the nitwits who think of this rubbish live on?
"
Scientists live on earth.
Always glad to help you out Buck! |
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"If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG.
Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG.
It's an absolute scam."
That's an excellent point! Why aren't EV's the equivalent of Seventies Fiat 127's or early Eighties MiniMetro's?
There are a few, the new Dacia Spring, for example, but most are bulky 4×4's.
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"If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG.
Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG.
It's an absolute scam.
That's an excellent point! Why aren't EV's the equivalent of Seventies Fiat 127's or early Eighties MiniMetro's?
There are a few, the new Dacia Spring, for example, but most are bulky 4×4's.
"
Exactly, see my post above regarding the Spring (which is still too expensive).
However this trend towards overly large vehicles can be seen in the ICE vehicles as well. Most vehicles, regardless of propulsion type, are overly large and expensive. Efficiency gains in ICE technology have been negated by the increased size and weight of vehicles. |
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?"
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation. |
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation."
Just imagine all of those Chinese cars suddenly stopping on every motorway in the uk because someone has issued the command 👍 |
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation."
So we want people to buy EVs. The Chinese make some of the best and the cheapest EVs. But people should not buy them because apparently that also goes against environmentalism for some reason? Also, national security is a problem if we get Chinese cars. Never mind that the countries are filled with Chinese phones already.
If the politicians can prioritise so many other issues over EU adoption, with what face are they asking people to prioritise buying expensive EVs?
The reason EU banned Chinese cars was just protectionism and nothing else. |
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation."
In that case we should ban anything electrical supplied from China for the same reason. |
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation.
So we want people to buy EVs. The Chinese make some of the best and the cheapest EVs. But people should not buy them because apparently that also goes against environmentalism for some reason? Also, national security is a problem if we get Chinese cars. Never mind that the countries are filled with Chinese phones already.
If the politicians can prioritise so many other issues over EU adoption, with what face are they asking people to prioritise buying expensive EVs?
The reason EU banned Chinese cars was just protectionism and nothing else. "
Of course, however people also forget about the other risks.
If cars didn't have to have connectivity then it is a non issue. Mandating stupid and unnecessary technology increases the risk. |
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation.
In that case we should ban anything electrical supplied from China for the same reason. "
There could be a case for this. |
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By *hirleyMan 5 weeks ago
somewhere |
I imagine the running cost on an EV isn't as great as you might hear. Some points to consider;
I think my current EV barely gets 10 k miles from the 2 front tyres (FWD). Charging cost is only good if you're at home on 'fast' charging that's sub 30p a kW, if you need to use a rapid charger (not to mention frequent use of rapid charges are linked to drastic battery life reduction), the cheapest ones are 70p a kW, which works out the same same as paying £1.40 a litre of petrol. The tax/insurance/repair cost will only increase from their relatively low point once the government feels there's enough on the road, and soon there will be little financial advantage to ICE. |
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The real answer is to reduce the size and weight of vehicles, thus improving efficiency.
Our car has a 1 litre non turbo petrol engine and is classed as a supermini these days. When I was learning to drive it would have been a reasonable size family car, with few being very much bigger.
It is about 150% of the weight of a similar car from the 70s or 80s but manages to use about half as much fuel.
Reduce weight and the fuel efficiency goes up.
Roads aren’t getting any bigger, and tjey are much more crowded so why do people buy such big and powerful cars. Not necessary at all.
Reducing the need to travel by working from home where possible is also beneficial.
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?
The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe.
Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary.
Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation.
So we want people to buy EVs. The Chinese make some of the best and the cheapest EVs. But people should not buy them because apparently that also goes against environmentalism for some reason? Also, national security is a problem if we get Chinese cars. Never mind that the countries are filled with Chinese phones already.
If the politicians can prioritise so many other issues over EU adoption, with what face are they asking people to prioritise buying expensive EVs?
The reason EU banned Chinese cars was just protectionism and nothing else.
Of course, however people also forget about the other risks.
If cars didn't have to have connectivity then it is a non issue. Mandating stupid and unnecessary technology increases the risk."
It's a good point. When I worked in China, buying local mobile phones was a nightmare - they are packed with embedded apps and blocking software. Ex-pats avoided them like the plague, and went to Hong Kong or Singapore to buy phones. |
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"I imagine the running cost on an EV isn't as great as you might hear. Some points to consider;
I think my current EV barely gets 10 k miles from the 2 front tyres (FWD). Charging cost is only good if you're at home on 'fast' charging that's sub 30p a kW, if you need to use a rapid charger (not to mention frequent use of rapid charges are linked to drastic battery life reduction), the cheapest ones are 70p a kW, which works out the same same as paying £1.40 a litre of petrol. The tax/insurance/repair cost will only increase from their relatively low point once the government feels there's enough on the road, and soon there will be little financial advantage to ICE."
Don't forget the cost of replacing the batteries, that seems to be left out of most sales pitches I have heard. |
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