FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Stalling electric vehicle sales.
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"Net zero is such a con. Just have a look at the manufacturing process of an electric car. Also have a look at the manufacturing process for the batteries. Have a look at the weight of these cars and how much damage they will do to the already shocking road system… I’m sick of being told about Net zero by that plank Miliband and the MSM." Agreed, renewable energy will reduce some emissions in energy production, but it doesn’t eliminate the emissions used with other parts of the process like manufacturing materials, transportation, or any emissions that can’t be mitigated directly. Meaning, renewable energy reduces the carbon footprint but doesn’t make it anywhere near zero. Stretching definitions, playing with words … | |||
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars. The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it. Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment. Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s " There are 2 reasons I wouldn’t have an EV. The first is range, which gets demonstrably worse in cold weather. The second is the lack of charging infrastructure (and do I really want to hang around for 2 hours to recharge even if I could find a rapid charger to complete my journey compared to a couple of minutes to refill the tank?) Then you get to the arguments about the virtue signalling of it all when you look at the supply chain carbon emissions and the carbon that would be generated in producing the electricity needed to charge the cars. The interesting thing is the behaviour of the middle market car sellers. I don’t know if people have twigged that the big auction houses like BCA no longer allow private buyers to bid, and have created reseller brands like Cazoo as an outlet? Do a bit of google earth image searching of former RAF airfields - you’ll see stockpiles of thousands of cars, vans and trucks that are owned by the leasing companies being witheld from the market to reduce supply and inflate the market value. This is going to become the gambit as the net zero madness truely takes hold. | |||
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"Net zero is such a con. Just have a look at the manufacturing process of an electric car. Also have a look at the manufacturing process for the batteries. Have a look at the weight of these cars and how much damage they will do to the already shocking road system… I’m sick of being told about Net zero by that plank Miliband and the MSM." In fairness, people who watch GBNews, read the Daily Mail etc they use the phrase "Net Zero" about 1,000,000,000,000,000 times more than everyone else combined. Approx. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later." The message and understanding of the strategy needs to be better mapped out and not mixed up with arbitrary figures, milestones and hysterical outcomes. People will get onboard when they can understand, JSO is not helping in that space. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later." 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later. 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference " Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later. 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. " I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals 2023 was the warmest year on record 10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later. 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals 2023 was the warmest year on record 10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 " Which records are you referring to? Who gave the information? At what point in history did they use as the start date for recording the temperature? How many global recording stations were active at the start date compared to now? What global positions didn't have but now have recording stations? Or are you just parroting what you heard on "da newz" | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later. 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals 2023 was the warmest year on record 10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 Which records are you referring to? Who gave the information? At what point in history did they use as the start date for recording the temperature? How many global recording stations were active at the start date compared to now? What global positions didn't have but now have recording stations? Or are you just parroting what you heard on "da newz"" People with any scientific knowledge understand how to extrapolate incomplete data. It's a science in itself and very reliable. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later. 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals 2023 was the warmest year on record 10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 Which records are you referring to? Who gave the information? At what point in history did they use as the start date for recording the temperature? How many global recording stations were active at the start date compared to now? What global positions didn't have but now have recording stations? Or are you just parroting what you heard on "da newz" People with any scientific knowledge understand how to extrapolate incomplete data. It's a science in itself and very reliable." That doesn't answer my questions. | |||
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"So we go nett zero while buying more and more product from China etc etc but no matter eh ? We can all feel so virtuous in the UK . The “ Science “ makes me laugh. The “Science “ in the 70s told us the world’s oil reserves would be exhausted by the year 2000 amongst a lot of other things that didn’t happen, and the world climate was cyclical and the cycle was heading to another ice age Known “ Science “ can be obsolete history in the blink of an eye . " You don't need to be a scientist to understand this stuff. Common sense alone tells us that if you release the energy and associated by-products stored in coal and oil over millions of years in a space of a few hundred years there likely to be drastic consequences. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later. 2bn (25%) more people on the globe by 2080, mainly from emerging economies aspiring to western living standards and consumerism Doubtful this will make any difference Each individual initiate makes a small difference. They all add up to a big change. I do not believe these policies are working, and are wholly inadequate to achieve climate goals 2023 was the warmest year on record 10 warmest years on record occurred 2014-2023 " I agree. We need to do a lot more. Side note, even if we stop releasing greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere, it will take time for the warming to slow down. | |||
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"So we go nett zero while buying more and more product from China etc etc but no matter eh ? We can all feel so virtuous in the UK . The “ Science “ makes me laugh. The “Science “ in the 70s told us the world’s oil reserves would be exhausted by the year 2000 amongst a lot of other things that didn’t happen, and the world climate was cyclical and the cycle was heading to another ice age Known “ Science “ can be obsolete history in the blink of an eye . " I assume this is a parody post? But this is a good, if overblown, example of the gross misunderstanding of what science and scientific method is. | |||
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"Would the money thrown at developing BEVs, which appears to have been politics led, have been better invested in further refining what we already had? I have an e-bike which is fantastic but not convinced a battery is the right solution for propelling cars. " Estimated 1.47 billion cars on the world’s roads and 700 million motorcycles, 23.7 million new commercial vehicles built annually, 90,000 commercial ships of more than 100 tonnes. NATO alone has 400,000 diesel vehicles. Add other ICE powered transportation . I think what is needed to reduce transportation emissions is grossly under estimated. Scientists say pollutants from vehicle tyres is 1000 times higher than exhaust emissions (emission analytics). So this also needs addressing. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later." Well I’ve done my bit then. No kids and obviously no grandkids either. That’s me helping to get to save the planet. | |||
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"No matter how rigorous the science is, there will always be sceptics or deniers. Or those in denial, shall we say. . So you really have 3 choices. . 1.Support initiatives to assist in combating climate change. 2. Ignore it and hope it goes away. 3. Actively fight against it. If Climate Change is going to be as bad as the science indicates, then you only have a 1 in 3 chance of choosing the correct path to try and address it. If you choose 1 and it helps avert the worst, then hurrah, you chose well. If you chose 2 or 3, then you are part of the problem, sadly. . If Climate Change doesn't pan out the way the science indicates, but you chose 1, then whilst there was a cost or sacrifice, your effort still helped (and may have helped avert it anyway). If you chose 2 or 3, you ignored or fought against something that did not transpire, which is akin to shadow-boxing. You were lucky the shadow didn't fight back. The problem being, if the shadow is real and does fight back, we and subsequent generations are fucked if we chose 2 or 3...in any of the 2 scenarios outlined above. " "If Climate Change doesn't pan out the way the science indicates, but you chose 1, then whilst there was a cost or sacrifice". In many/most instances, taking action is economically better in the medium/long term. Such as moving away from electricity generated from fossil fuels. | |||
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s?" Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid. | |||
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s? Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid." Or fuel supplies | |||
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s? Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid." | |||
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"I'm old enough to remember a dispute with tanker drivers that caused fuel shortages at the pumps.... I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s? Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid." It was not a dispute with tanker drivers, I was one of tbose drivers. Our depots were blockaded & we were prevented from going out on the road safely | |||
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"I couldn't give 2 fucks, rather have a diesel anyday, what happens in a power cut or if the state cuts the power as in the 70s? Indeed. A weakness in EV rollout is the vulnerability of our national transport system to acts of terrorism by disabling the electricity grid. Or fuel supplies " Unless of course we transition off fossil fuels. Win/win/win. | |||
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"The uk is crippling its self with net zero will china doesnt bother its ass " This is inaccurate. "China's $890bn investment in clean-energy sectors is almost as large as total global investments in fossil fuel supply in 2023 – and similar to the GDP of Switzerland or Turkey. Including the value of production, clean-energy sectors contributed 11.4tn yuan ($1.6tn) to the Chinese economy in 2023, up 30% year-on-year." From Carbonbrief website. " Ideally hybrids are the answer petrol or diesel with a electric motor " Why so? | |||
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"The uk is crippling its self with net zero will china doesnt bother its ass This is inaccurate. "China's $890bn investment in clean-energy sectors is almost as large as total global investments in fossil fuel supply in 2023 – and similar to the GDP of Switzerland or Turkey. Including the value of production, clean-energy sectors contributed 11.4tn yuan ($1.6tn) to the Chinese economy in 2023, up 30% year-on-year." From Carbonbrief website. Ideally hybrids are the answer petrol or diesel with a electric motor Why so?" Hybrid just means you are transporting the weight and technology of two drive systems - one of them redundant most of the time. | |||
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"If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG. Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG. It's an absolute scam." Dacia Spring? Looked at one when my Sandero was in for work. If I was looking for a new car I would consider one. At the moment, cost to change would be maybe £8k for which I would get a smaller car which has less range, is more expensive to insure, same road tax, maybe less in fuel if I charge it at home (although the Sandero does a genuine 60+ mpg). So, when it is time to change, maybe. Although the basic Spring may not be imported into the UK. Apparently UK customers want the higher spec ones - don’t know why, I think they are stupid. | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?" Presumably this is to protect their own manufacturers being undercut, bit like America has done. The trouble could be in retaliation from China who could put tariffs on goods going to them that are important to western manufacturers. In the end someone suffers | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do?" Buy European EVs? | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs?" Where is choice if the EU are going down such a harsh road of protectionism? The EU EV's could be a bad investment, do little for progression of the tech and cost more in greenhouse gasses than a Chinese variant. This looks to me as an autarky strategy from the EU, not surprising but worrying. | |||
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars. The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it. Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment. Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s There are 2 reasons I wouldn’t have an EV. The first is range, which gets demonstrably worse in cold weather. The second is the lack of charging infrastructure (and do I really want to hang around for 2 hours to recharge even if I could find a rapid charger to complete my journey compared to a couple of minutes to refill the tank?) Then you get to the arguments about the virtue signalling of it all when you look at the supply chain carbon emissions and the carbon that would be generated in producing the electricity needed to charge the cars. The interesting thing is the behaviour of the middle market car sellers. I don’t know if people have twigged that the big auction houses like BCA no longer allow private buyers to bid, and have created reseller brands like Cazoo as an outlet? Do a bit of google earth image searching of former RAF airfields - you’ll see stockpiles of thousands of cars, vans and trucks that are owned by the leasing companies being witheld from the market to reduce supply and inflate the market value. This is going to become the gambit as the net zero madness truely takes hold. " Didn't Cazoo go bankrupt..? | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs?" Generally, too expensive. | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs?" They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity. | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs? They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity." Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down. | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs? They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity. Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down." We we priced up a Ford hybrid comparable in kit to our Leaf it was £4k dearer. I have found that those complaining about a £30k EV are also those that would never spend £30k on a car anyway, no matter how it is powered. In my post I showed that out leased 40kw EV saves us around £4k a year. It's lease is up next October when in all liklihood we'll lease something newer but buy a used 62kw Leaf (giving us a third more energy to use/export) which can be had currently for about £9k for a high miles one so will be cheaper next year. ROI in just two years. Far better than solar & home batteries, though your work/life balance has to fit & ours does. Here in Wales they are trying to push through huge solar & onshore wind farms to reduce its 70% generation by fossil fuels but what is not spoken about is that Wales is a nett exporter of energy & 50% of Welsh generation leaves the country. To me part of the answer isn't generating more or even generating the same but greener, it's battery storage & stop exporting out of Wales full stop. Wales could cut the use of fossil fuels within a couple of years yet not many advocate for battery farms, probably because there's less if any money to be made. S | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs? They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity. Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down. We we priced up a Ford hybrid comparable in kit to our Leaf it was £4k dearer. I have found that those complaining about a £30k EV are also those that would never spend £30k on a car anyway, no matter how it is powered. In my post I showed that out leased 40kw EV saves us around £4k a year. It's lease is up next October when in all liklihood we'll lease something newer but buy a used 62kw Leaf (giving us a third more energy to use/export) which can be had currently for about £9k for a high miles one so will be cheaper next year. ROI in just two years. Far better than solar & home batteries, though your work/life balance has to fit & ours does. Here in Wales they are trying to push through huge solar & onshore wind farms to reduce its 70% generation by fossil fuels but what is not spoken about is that Wales is a nett exporter of energy & 50% of Welsh generation leaves the country. To me part of the answer isn't generating more or even generating the same but greener, it's battery storage & stop exporting out of Wales full stop. Wales could cut the use of fossil fuels within a couple of years yet not many advocate for battery farms, probably because there's less if any money to be made. S" What you're describing is 'top down' pricing by manufacturers i.e. they factor into the selling price your (lower) running costs. I'll consider an EV when they change to 'bottom up' pricing i.e. you pay for what you actually get. | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs? They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity." Agreed. And infrastructure vastly improved to make them as viable as ICE. If you have a drive then no issue but terraced houses or flats? | |||
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"What’s missing from this debate so far is the obligatory limits placed on manufacturers. This is why they are requesting the new car incentives. ‘The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) told members of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee that the market share of pure battery electric cars is expected to be 19.8% this year. That is less than the 22% they are obligated to sell under the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate which ***sees the threshold rise year-on-year until it reaches 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035 *** when the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be prohibited.’ (Copied from RAC) £15k fine per new ice vehicle sold over the zev mandate. " I believe Labour are bringing the ban forward again to 2030. | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs?" They aren't as cheap as BYD's cars though? | |||
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"The EU has just voted to impose tariffs of up to 45% on Chinese EVs. So they want people to move to EVs but wouldn't let them buy cheaper ones. So what exactly are the people supposed to do? Buy European EVs? They are way overpriced for what amounts to a glorified Scalextric bolted to a PP3 battery. EV drive trains have 20 moving parts compared to 2,000 for an ICE. Admittedly the batteries are expensive, but EV prices need to come down to reflect their technical simplicity. Almost every innovation starts at a higher price point. No doubt the prices will come down." The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? | |||
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"What’s missing from this debate so far is the obligatory limits placed on manufacturers. This is why they are requesting the new car incentives. ‘The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) told members of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee that the market share of pure battery electric cars is expected to be 19.8% this year. That is less than the 22% they are obligated to sell under the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate which ***sees the threshold rise year-on-year until it reaches 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035 *** when the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be prohibited.’ (Copied from RAC) £15k fine per new ice vehicle sold over the zev mandate. I believe Labour are bringing the ban forward again to 2030." And for motorcycles 125cc and below being banned first | |||
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"The uk is crippling its self with net zero will china doesnt bother its ass Ideally hybrids are the answer petrol or diesel with a electric motor " That old trope, yet again. Not backed up with any evidence, of course | |||
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"Due to the net zero policy, " Which bet zero policy? " there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev. " Further up we have people worried about charging EVs with our current electricity generation methods. " The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow. " So we need hydro, biogas, clever storage solutions, and nuclear to get us over the line. Today, 44% of our electric was generated from renewables. Imagine what we could do if we had a government free from fossil fuels company donations, that put some serious research, investment and technology. " We already have the highest energy bills in Europe." . We need to get off externally priced fossil fuels so we can bring down energy bills long term. | |||
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"Due to the net zero policy, Which bet zero policy? there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev. Further up we have people worried about charging EVs with our current electricity generation methods. The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow. So we need hydro, biogas, clever storage solutions, and nuclear to get us over the line. Today, 44% of our electric was generated from renewables. Imagine what we could do if we had a government free from fossil fuels company donations, that put some serious research, investment and technology. We already have the highest energy bills in Europe. . We need to get off externally priced fossil fuels so we can bring down energy bills long term. " The real issue though is that Government do not invest our money for us, they invest it for Big Corp. Look at Keirs 22b carbon capture project, 11b per plant. If n effect that's not "Investing in" that's "Paying for" lock, stock & barrel, yet we know from past experience that the parent company right at the top will be foreign owned & will charge US as well as anyone else who cares to pay to capture carbon in pp wants that we have likely already paid over the odds for do that they can produce profit before turning a single sod of soil. Here in Wales Bute energy want to put of fifty turbines in Ceredigion, while at the same time saying six would produce the annual electricity use for the county..So why are we not putting up six here with battery storage? Well when you dig further the Welsh Assy have designated the land, probably giving it away & then you find out that fifty turbines will need massive infrastructure to the National Grid by way of a new fifty two kilometer run of pylons heading south down the middle of the Teifi valley & who is the likely contract winner of this multi billion pound contract? None other than a subsidiary of the Danish parent company that owns Bute Energy, the company that think fifty turbines is better than six. It's this that needs change, it's getting rid of this that will reduce our energy bills. & They wonder why we think they are all brown envelope wielding scumbags. S | |||
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"Due to the net zero policy, there won't be a reliable infastructure to support ev. The sun does not always shine (specially in the uk) and the wind does not always blow. We already have the highest energy bills in Europe." In a single hour, the amount of power from the sun that strikes the Earth is more than the entire world consumes in a year (from all other manufactured sources). Scientists at US Department of Energy: Each hour 430 quintillion Joules of energy from the sun hits the Earth. | |||
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"If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?" Indeed. Sadly the form of "Capitalism" we seem to tolerate distorts the whole point of a free-market by using trade tariffs and protectionism. This essentially means our free choice as consumers is anything but free, especially when things are "ring-fenced" in favour of our own market. The market and the consumers should decide, not political interference and protectionism. | |||
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars. The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it. Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment. Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s " Net zero. What a lot of bs. What planet do the nitwits who think of this rubbish live on? | |||
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"The registrations of new diesel cars for private buyers in September grew by about 17.2% compared with the same month in 2023. That compares with a rise of approximately 3.7% for pure battery electric cars. The plateau in global EV sales has forced carmakers in the UK into what the SMMT described as “unprecedented manufacturer discounting” to try to hit the ZEV mandate and avoid fines of up to £15,000 per vehicle if they fail to meet it. Government has been asked by several manufacturers to increase buyer incentives for EV’s to meet the net zero commitment. Has Reeves any money in the pot or will there be tax/fuel/ved rises for ICE vehicles to enable discounts on EV’s Net zero. What a lot of bs. What planet do the nitwits who think of this rubbish live on? " Scientists live on earth. Always glad to help you out Buck! | |||
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"If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG. Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG. It's an absolute scam." That's an excellent point! Why aren't EV's the equivalent of Seventies Fiat 127's or early Eighties MiniMetro's? There are a few, the new Dacia Spring, for example, but most are bulky 4×4's. | |||
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"If they where really interested in the climate EVs would be half the size they are, be very basic and do fantastic equivalent of MPG. Instead they are huge, weigh an astronomical amount, packed with every conceivable electric gadget and are absolutely shocking equivalent MPG. It's an absolute scam. That's an excellent point! Why aren't EV's the equivalent of Seventies Fiat 127's or early Eighties MiniMetro's? There are a few, the new Dacia Spring, for example, but most are bulky 4×4's. " Exactly, see my post above regarding the Spring (which is still too expensive). However this trend towards overly large vehicles can be seen in the ICE vehicles as well. Most vehicles, regardless of propulsion type, are overly large and expensive. Efficiency gains in ICE technology have been negated by the increased size and weight of vehicles. | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars?" The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation. | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation." Just imagine all of those Chinese cars suddenly stopping on every motorway in the uk because someone has issued the command 👍 | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation." So we want people to buy EVs. The Chinese make some of the best and the cheapest EVs. But people should not buy them because apparently that also goes against environmentalism for some reason? Also, national security is a problem if we get Chinese cars. Never mind that the countries are filled with Chinese phones already. If the politicians can prioritise so many other issues over EU adoption, with what face are they asking people to prioritise buying expensive EVs? The reason EU banned Chinese cars was just protectionism and nothing else. | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation." In that case we should ban anything electrical supplied from China for the same reason. | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation. So we want people to buy EVs. The Chinese make some of the best and the cheapest EVs. But people should not buy them because apparently that also goes against environmentalism for some reason? Also, national security is a problem if we get Chinese cars. Never mind that the countries are filled with Chinese phones already. If the politicians can prioritise so many other issues over EU adoption, with what face are they asking people to prioritise buying expensive EVs? The reason EU banned Chinese cars was just protectionism and nothing else. " Of course, however people also forget about the other risks. If cars didn't have to have connectivity then it is a non issue. Mandating stupid and unnecessary technology increases the risk. | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation. In that case we should ban anything electrical supplied from China for the same reason. " There could be a case for this. | |||
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"The prices have already come down on Chinese EVs. European people are prevented from buying the cheaper EVs from China because of the new tariffs. If the politicians really want people to adapt EVs, surely they should be supportive of cheaper cars? The Chinese control much of the supply of the raw ingredients for batteries and electronics so competing will always be difficult. There is also the matter of wages and environmental protection (or lack of) in China compared with Europe. Everyone forgets the inherent danger of buying Chinese. With all the stupid big brother connectivity and over the air updates mandated by our political masters it would be easy in time of war to disable (or worse) vehicles you have sold to an adversary. Exploding pagers would have nothing on the potential devastation. So we want people to buy EVs. The Chinese make some of the best and the cheapest EVs. But people should not buy them because apparently that also goes against environmentalism for some reason? Also, national security is a problem if we get Chinese cars. Never mind that the countries are filled with Chinese phones already. If the politicians can prioritise so many other issues over EU adoption, with what face are they asking people to prioritise buying expensive EVs? The reason EU banned Chinese cars was just protectionism and nothing else. Of course, however people also forget about the other risks. If cars didn't have to have connectivity then it is a non issue. Mandating stupid and unnecessary technology increases the risk." It's a good point. When I worked in China, buying local mobile phones was a nightmare - they are packed with embedded apps and blocking software. Ex-pats avoided them like the plague, and went to Hong Kong or Singapore to buy phones. | |||
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"I imagine the running cost on an EV isn't as great as you might hear. Some points to consider; I think my current EV barely gets 10 k miles from the 2 front tyres (FWD). Charging cost is only good if you're at home on 'fast' charging that's sub 30p a kW, if you need to use a rapid charger (not to mention frequent use of rapid charges are linked to drastic battery life reduction), the cheapest ones are 70p a kW, which works out the same same as paying £1.40 a litre of petrol. The tax/insurance/repair cost will only increase from their relatively low point once the government feels there's enough on the road, and soon there will be little financial advantage to ICE." Don't forget the cost of replacing the batteries, that seems to be left out of most sales pitches I have heard. | |||
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"Let’s just carry on regardless and apologise to our grandchildren later." Lol, apologise for what? That people voted in and gullible enough to fall for all this net zero, sustainable, carbon footprint buzzword driven madness. | |||
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"I hope diesel cars make a,serious come back. The best vehicle i ever had was diesel MPV and it was one which ran happily on cooking oil, not something with an engine too bloody clever for everyone's good except for the rip off motor trade in collusion with the government. The only green in me is the envy I have of people who live in countries where such vehicles still exist to be enjoyed." Mine was a nice little Suzuki RG500, 2 stroke motorcyle. | |||
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" Mine was a nice little Suzuki RG500, 2 stroke motorcyle." Collectors item, trumps my rd400 | |||
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"I hope diesel cars make a,serious come back. The best vehicle i ever had was diesel MPV and it was one which ran happily on cooking oil, not something with an engine too bloody clever for everyone's good except for the rip off motor trade in collusion with the government. The only green in me is the envy I have of people who live in countries where such vehicles still exist to be enjoyed." No it will be petrol that makes a come back. Posable as hybrid I love my Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid 45mph and its not a plug in. | |||
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"I strongly suspect she will increase the cost of running ICE vehicles rather than reducing the cost of electric ones. We’ll find out soon however getting rid of the 5p a litre fuel duty cut and reinstating the fuel duty escalator are obvious temptations. Labour’s fanatical obsession with net zero will cost us all dearly." Just wanted to make you all aware if not so.. that this is not happening and that as of April “road tax” is going on EV’s So where are the moment it is zero for EV’s and low emissions vehicles (like most hybrids) as of April it will become 10 pound for a vehicle in yr1… then 195 pounds every year after… Then on top however there is also an “expensive car levy “ where if your car was worth more than 40,000 pounds at the original time of production, then for the year 2,3,4,5 and 6 of that car’s life there will be an additional 410 pounds per year levy on top of the 195 pounds (so 605 pounds per year) Even as an EV and low emissions advocate ( I pay zero on my Prius) I don’t mind this…. So since this is the “stick” now I would have liked a “carrot” to increase to tempt people into taking them up….. In the US you can actually at the federal level get up to a 7,500 dollar EV grant to purchase one, and then various states added extra grants further incentivises ( California and Colorado for example give another 5000 dollars) for any vehicle under 50,000 dollars So for example… I would not mind if the uk did basically the same thing (the uk is one of the few countries that does) So… and this is where I expect to be shot down by a lot of people here… I would propose 0% VAT on EV vehicles below the £40000 pound road tax threshold they are bringing in…. | |||
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"I strongly suspect she will increase the cost of running ICE vehicles rather than reducing the cost of electric ones. We’ll find out soon however getting rid of the 5p a litre fuel duty cut and reinstating the fuel duty escalator are obvious temptations. Labour’s fanatical obsession with net zero will cost us all dearly. Just wanted to make you all aware if not so.. that this is not happening and that as of April “road tax” is going on EV’s So where are the moment it is zero for EV’s and low emissions vehicles (like most hybrids) as of April it will become 10 pound for a vehicle in yr1… then 195 pounds every year after… Then on top however there is also an “expensive car levy “ where if your car was worth more than 40,000 pounds at the original time of production, then for the year 2,3,4,5 and 6 of that car’s life there will be an additional 410 pounds per year levy on top of the 195 pounds (so 605 pounds per year) Even as an EV and low emissions advocate ( I pay zero on my Prius) I don’t mind this…. So since this is the “stick” now I would have liked a “carrot” to increase to tempt people into taking them up….. In the US you can actually at the federal level get up to a 7,500 dollar EV grant to purchase one, and then various states added extra grants further incentivises ( California and Colorado for example give another 5000 dollars) for any vehicle under 50,000 dollars So for example… I would not mind if the uk did basically the same thing (the uk is one of the few countries that does) So… and this is where I expect to be shot down by a lot of people here… I would propose 0% VAT on EV vehicles below the £40000 pound road tax threshold they are bringing in…. " I thought I had seen something like that the other week. For me I currently pay £35 per year road tax for my old diesel. If I invest in an EV I will have to pay £195. I guess one day I won't have a choice | |||
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"I strongly suspect she will increase the cost of running ICE vehicles rather than reducing the cost of electric ones. We’ll find out soon however getting rid of the 5p a litre fuel duty cut and reinstating the fuel duty escalator are obvious temptations. Labour’s fanatical obsession with net zero will cost us all dearly. Just wanted to make you all aware if not so.. that this is not happening and that as of April “road tax” is going on EV’s So where are the moment it is zero for EV’s and low emissions vehicles (like most hybrids) as of April it will become 10 pound for a vehicle in yr1… then 195 pounds every year after… Then on top however there is also an “expensive car levy “ where if your car was worth more than 40,000 pounds at the original time of production, then for the year 2,3,4,5 and 6 of that car’s life there will be an additional 410 pounds per year levy on top of the 195 pounds (so 605 pounds per year) Even as an EV and low emissions advocate ( I pay zero on my Prius) I don’t mind this…. So since this is the “stick” now I would have liked a “carrot” to increase to tempt people into taking them up….. In the US you can actually at the federal level get up to a 7,500 dollar EV grant to purchase one, and then various states added extra grants further incentivises ( California and Colorado for example give another 5000 dollars) for any vehicle under 50,000 dollars So for example… I would not mind if the uk did basically the same thing (the uk is one of the few countries that does) So… and this is where I expect to be shot down by a lot of people here… I would propose 0% VAT on EV vehicles below the £40000 pound road tax threshold they are bringing in…. " I do agree that all environmental positive items could be at 0% Vat same could be with Solar and energy storage. This would make it more attractive. As for Vehicle Excise Duty all vehicles should contribute i like the idear on waight per vehicle! AND most if not all should be ring fenced for roads and road infrastructure. But this will never happen. | |||
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"Cold weather massively reduces EV range, plus they are all massive to accommodate enough batteries to get anywhere near a decent range. They eat tyres, hence more pollution. Things like roof boxes for holidays will also hit range (unless Labour ban us taking holidays for Net Zero) plus you can't really tow trailers for the same reason. You can't force everyone into EVs when the infrastructure isn't in place & won't be available for years yet for packed residential streets & blocks of flats. All we have done in the UK is close down our own "dirty" industries, shipped all the factories & equipment elsewhere to poorer countries so we still import the goods we want & expect more cheaply. Then have the appalling cheek to sit here pointing the finger at China etc saying look at them filthy lot polluting the planet while we are now so clean & virtuous! It beggars belief. But never mind, we'll all be skint soon paying over the odds for all this new environmental tech & Britain will be the 3rd world country with cheap labour as we plunge down the rich list of G7/G20 countries & everywhere else overtakes us in wealth." I'd like to counter some of the points you made, not to dismiss them but I think they're only looking at them from a certain point of view. I agree that the deindustrialisation of the UK has shown itself to be negative and was exasperated by the pandemic. But by focusing the UK on new innovation and technology, they can give themselves a foothold and possibly future in a market that has growth. Old legacy production is something the UK cannot compete on, but like as you say, no country can survive without being productive, it needs something to make or do. Now the problem is, countries that are seen as the classic dirty mass producing world factories have taken a March with the "new" innovation and already lead in the market. UK cannot afford to let these opportunities keep passing by and not jump on the bandwagon or innovate themselves. That is what drives stagnation | |||
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"Aren't the governments previous and current, fucking us over by forcing road tax up to the point of a petrol or diesel engine car being so expensive we are forced to go electric. Whatever happened to it being a free country and having the right to choose what we want." That could be the case but increases in road tax are way down on the political muscle! The EU are introducing a policy post 2035 that will really hit home, and I expect the UK to follow… End of life vehicle, if an ICE repair is more than the cost of the vehicle, the vehicle will be scrapped. If we adopt that, it could have a significant impact removing the ICE. | |||
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"Aren't the governments previous and current, fucking us over by forcing road tax up to the point of a petrol or diesel engine car being so expensive we are forced to go electric. " Not anymore! Unless you own a vehicle older than April 2017 and is a fairly high emissions vehicle ( band f or higher) then it would either be no higher now.. or actually cheaper than an EV… " Whatever happened to it being a free country and having the right to choose what we want." If your car is April 2017 or younger …. There will be no difference in what you pay road tax wise between an ICE or EV car, the only difference will be if your car was originally worth more than 40,000 for the “expensive car supplement” | |||
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" The EU are introducing a policy post 2035 that will really hit home, and I expect the UK to follow… End of life vehicle, if an ICE repair is more than the cost of the vehicle, the vehicle will be scrapped. If we adopt that, it could have a significant impact removing the ICE. " This is how they will get them off the road then. And probably tougher mot. In July I wrote off my 2013 golf blue motion, needed an egr, turbo and cat - £4500. Worth £2800, scrapped it £350. Move on | |||
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" The EU are introducing a policy post 2035 that will really hit home, and I expect the UK to follow… End of life vehicle, if an ICE repair is more than the cost of the vehicle, the vehicle will be scrapped. If we adopt that, it could have a significant impact removing the ICE. This is how they will get them off the road then. And probably tougher mot. In July I wrote off my 2013 golf blue motion, needed an egr, turbo and cat - £4500. Worth £2800, scrapped it £350. Move on " I would expect the cost of spare parts to increase post 2035, with only spurious parts being available, that would push up the cost to repair. Although having said that spurious car part manufacturing from China could become a big thing, it would make us look like we are still in the dark ages, which would be a win / win for China..... | |||
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"Is it me or is petrol not clearer than diesel. And if that is true surely scrap Diesel first " The idiocy of the ZEM you would think so. On motorcycles the plan is to ban the least polluting 125cc and under first, while you can still buy a 1900cc Harley or 2.5l triumph rocket for a further five years. | |||
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"Many garages will not take an EV or hybrid in part exchange. Ashford motors (check instagram) have a good video on why they and others don't take them as part exchanges." . Why ever not? Most white goods shops will at least cart away used washing machines and fridges for you. | |||
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"Unfortunately globalisation and our hunger for unlimited energy has made us a narcissistic consumer planet unable to think long term due to the impact on our lives now. Since having kids my mind set has changed but not everyone has that change... Not do they have to. I bought an eV outright and lost thousands. I try to offset this a little by hoping I'm having less of an emissions impact but obviously tyre degradation we can't get away from just yet, and cycling more short journeys to role model to my kids. The grey soot of London on the concrete will disappear and already there is more hope for those young respiratory sufferers. We need to let go of our need to drive " There will always be some big fume pumping vehicles on the road. I don't see how they could ever replace big delivery lorries with EV they would need an additional trailer for the batteries. Unless they have an out of city hub then use smaller EVs to ship into cities! | |||
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"Many garages will not take an EV or hybrid in part exchange. Ashford motors (check instagram) have a good video on why they and others don't take them as part exchanges. . Why ever not? Most white goods shops will at least cart away used washing machines and fridges for you." True, even in Ireland when they deliver a new washing machine they will take the old one away, also local amenity recycling centres take electric items. If you're on instagram look up Ashford motors as they posted a good video on why they won't take ev or hybrids in part exchange | |||
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"Unfortunately globalisation and our hunger for unlimited energy has made us a narcissistic consumer planet unable to think long term due to the impact on our lives now. Since having kids my mind set has changed but not everyone has that change... Not do they have to. I bought an eV outright and lost thousands. I try to offset this a little by hoping I'm having less of an emissions impact but obviously tyre degradation we can't get away from just yet, and cycling more short journeys to role model to my kids. The grey soot of London on the concrete will disappear and already there is more hope for those young respiratory sufferers. We need to let go of our need to drive " You make this Quote as an inner city car driver, to witch I agree and with good public transport I don't see why you would have a car. But try and do the same when you live in the countryside, or like me a trade person a van is a tool box, yet there is no Hybrid option as yet just dose not make sense. And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's | |||
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"Is it me or is petrol not clearer than diesel. And if that is true surely scrap Diesel first The idiocy of the ZEM you would think so. On motorcycles the plan is to ban the least polluting 125cc and under first, while you can still buy a 1900cc Harley or 2.5l triumph rocket for a further five years. " Yes, and the stupid motorcycle license laws discourage people from starting to ride. Not to mention all the other small things that show the government is not at all interested in reducing emissions by encouraging alternative means of transport. Motorcycle VED is disproportionately high. Refusing to make riding in bus lanes the default. The statement last year that the Labour government doesn’t have any plans to encourage motorcycle use. Etc. | |||
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"Is it me or is petrol not clearer than diesel. And if that is true surely scrap Diesel first The idiocy of the ZEM you would think so. On motorcycles the plan is to ban the least polluting 125cc and under first, while you can still buy a 1900cc Harley or 2.5l triumph rocket for a further five years. Yes, and the stupid motorcycle license laws discourage people from starting to ride. Not to mention all the other small things that show the government is not at all interested in reducing emissions by encouraging alternative means of transport. Motorcycle VED is disproportionately high. Refusing to make riding in bus lanes the default. The statement last year that the Labour government doesn’t have any plans to encourage motorcycle use. Etc." Was out in Bali this year and the number of motorcycles was just mad would say 20 bikes to every car. | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's " No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel. | |||
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"Is it me or is petrol not clearer than diesel. And if that is true surely scrap Diesel first The idiocy of the ZEM you would think so. On motorcycles the plan is to ban the least polluting 125cc and under first, while you can still buy a 1900cc Harley or 2.5l triumph rocket for a further five years. Yes, and the stupid motorcycle license laws discourage people from starting to ride. Not to mention all the other small things that show the government is not at all interested in reducing emissions by encouraging alternative means of transport. Motorcycle VED is disproportionately high. Refusing to make riding in bus lanes the default. The statement last year that the Labour government doesn’t have any plans to encourage motorcycle use. Etc. Was out in Bali this year and the number of motorcycles was just mad would say 20 bikes to every car. " You should see Vietnam. | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel." I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol. Is my point and by making petrol Hybrid you use less. I know Toyota are looking in to Diesel Hybrid but that's still the dirty fumes from diesel.. | |||
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"Is it me or is petrol not clearer than diesel. And if that is true surely scrap Diesel first The idiocy of the ZEM you would think so. On motorcycles the plan is to ban the least polluting 125cc and under first, while you can still buy a 1900cc Harley or 2.5l triumph rocket for a further five years. Yes, and the stupid motorcycle license laws discourage people from starting to ride. Not to mention all the other small things that show the government is not at all interested in reducing emissions by encouraging alternative means of transport. Motorcycle VED is disproportionately high. Refusing to make riding in bus lanes the default. The statement last year that the Labour government doesn’t have any plans to encourage motorcycle use. Etc. Was out in Bali this year and the number of motorcycles was just mad would say 20 bikes to every car. You should see Vietnam. " On my list of places to go. | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel. I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol. Is my point and by making petrol Hybrid you use less. I know Toyota are looking in to Diesel Hybrid but that's still the dirty fumes from diesel.." diesel fumes as in c02 are clean i think if i remember right its the small particulate matter that is higher from a diesel | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel. I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol. Is my point and by making petrol Hybrid you use less. I know Toyota are looking in to Diesel Hybrid but that's still the dirty fumes from diesel..diesel fumes as in c02 are clean i think if i remember right its the small particulate matter that is higher from a diesel " and we have a new hilux invincible x hybrid on its way in march problem is, it weighs that much you cant have a rear canopy and a tow bar as its overweight 😂 | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's" "No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel." "I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol." Diesel is differently polluting than petrol. It produces more of some things and less of others. It's very hard to come up with exact figures with lorries, as they would burn significantly more petrol than diesel. But none of that matters. Skl any haulier whether he would rather save money, or slightly reduce environmental pollution, and the money will win every time. | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel. I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol. Diesel is differently polluting than petrol. It produces more of some things and less of others. It's very hard to come up with exact figures with lorries, as they would burn significantly more petrol than diesel. But none of that matters. Skl any haulier whether he would rather save money, or slightly reduce environmental pollution, and the money will win every time." certainly but the problem is ask any haulier if he would rather a pre dpf/adblue truck or after and then ask if he likes the £49 per day clean air charges to go with his pre dpf truck | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel. I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol. Is my point and by making petrol Hybrid you use less. I know Toyota are looking in to Diesel Hybrid but that's still the dirty fumes from diesel..diesel fumes as in c02 are clean i think if i remember right its the small particulate matter that is higher from a diesel and we have a new hilux invincible x hybrid on its way in march problem is, it weighs that much you cant have a rear canopy and a tow bar as its overweight 😂" Oh that's not very good 😕 sounds a bit like shooting your self in the foot.. | |||
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"And again if petrol is cleaner could lorys not use petrol in towns and City's No. Diesel engines are more efficient, and have higher torque. Lorries need the torque to pull heavy loads, and they get better mileage with diesel. I get they you get more mileage out of diesel but is it not more polluting then petrol. Is my point and by making petrol Hybrid you use less. I know Toyota are looking in to Diesel Hybrid but that's still the dirty fumes from diesel..diesel fumes as in c02 are clean i think if i remember right its the small particulate matter that is higher from a diesel and we have a new hilux invincible x hybrid on its way in march problem is, it weighs that much you cant have a rear canopy and a tow bar as its overweight 😂 Oh that's not very good 😕 sounds a bit like shooting your self in the foot.. " not my choice tbh the plant manager has ordered it | |||
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"Cold weather massively reduces EV range, plus they are all massive to accommodate enough batteries to get anywhere near a decent range. They eat tyres, hence more pollution. Things like roof boxes for holidays will also hit range (unless Labour ban us taking holidays for Net Zero) plus you can't really tow trailers for the same reason. You can't force everyone into EVs when the infrastructure isn't in place & won't be available for years yet for packed residential streets & blocks of flats. All we have done in the UK is close down our own "dirty" industries, shipped all the factories & equipment elsewhere to poorer countries so we still import the goods we want & expect more cheaply. Then have the appalling cheek to sit here pointing the finger at China etc saying look at them filthy lot polluting the planet while we are now so clean & virtuous! It beggars belief. But never mind, we'll all be skint soon paying over the odds for all this new environmental tech & Britain will be the 3rd world country with cheap labour as we plunge down the rich list of G7/G20 countries & everywhere else overtakes us in wealth." Shame so many on here are so naive, same amount of pollution in this world just easier for the ignorant to turn a blind eye to because it is done overseas. | |||
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"Owning a car now is such an expensive thing and such a faff. Not every garage will service hybrid vehicles still so we have to pay main dealer prices. £500 for the last service with lexus it's a 2011 car FFS!! We love the car unfortunately we cannot afford a new car so stuck with it for now." 34 million cars on uk roads, another 1.95M new ones registered last year. 250,000 used ones on ebay and probably double that again on dealers forecourts. It is ridiculous not to use these existing resources up before converting on mass to EV (over one billion cars on worlds roads) Uk has only 7.5 million cyclists while reported today London is Europe’s most congested city, with drivers sat in traffic an average 101 hours last year. London has the highest public transport costs of any major city. According to Transport for London, the Tube has the most expensive fares of any metro in the world. | |||
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"Owning a car now is such an expensive thing and such a faff. Not every garage will service hybrid vehicles still so we have to pay main dealer prices. £500 for the last service with lexus it's a 2011 car FFS!! We love the car unfortunately we cannot afford a new car so stuck with it for now. 34 million cars on uk roads, another 1.95M new ones registered last year. 250,000 used ones on ebay and probably double that again on dealers forecourts. It is ridiculous not to use these existing resources up before converting on mass to EV (over one billion cars on worlds roads) Uk has only 7.5 million cyclists while reported today London is Europe’s most congested city, with drivers sat in traffic an average 101 hours last year. London has the highest public transport costs of any major city. According to Transport for London, the Tube has the most expensive fares of any metro in the world. " What further boggles my mind is that the overseas owners of these transport companies have a terrible track record in this country. But in their own country the transport they run there is cheap clean and on time. | |||
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"Owning a car now is such an expensive thing and such a faff. Not every garage will service hybrid vehicles still so we have to pay main dealer prices. £500 for the last service with lexus it's a 2011 car FFS!! We love the car unfortunately we cannot afford a new car so stuck with it for now. 34 million cars on uk roads, another 1.95M new ones registered last year. 250,000 used ones on ebay and probably double that again on dealers forecourts. It is ridiculous not to use these existing resources up before converting on mass to EV (over one billion cars on worlds roads) Uk has only 7.5 million cyclists while reported today London is Europe’s most congested city, with drivers sat in traffic an average 101 hours last year. London has the highest public transport costs of any major city. According to Transport for London, the Tube has the most expensive fares of any metro in the world. " Similar with trains. I don't know what it would cost these day from Newcastle to London (guessing expensive) We've just booked the high speed AVE from Alicante to Madrid (similar distance) for 23€ and that is at peak time early morning. | |||
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"Owning a car now is such an expensive thing and such a faff. Not every garage will service hybrid vehicles still so we have to pay main dealer prices. £500 for the last service with lexus it's a 2011 car FFS!! We love the car unfortunately we cannot afford a new car so stuck with it for now. 34 million cars on uk roads, another 1.95M new ones registered last year. 250,000 used ones on ebay and probably double that again on dealers forecourts. It is ridiculous not to use these existing resources up before converting on mass to EV (over one billion cars on worlds roads) Uk has only 7.5 million cyclists while reported today London is Europe’s most congested city, with drivers sat in traffic an average 101 hours last year. London has the highest public transport costs of any major city. According to Transport for London, the Tube has the most expensive fares of any metro in the world. What further boggles my mind is that the overseas owners of these transport companies have a terrible track record in this country. But in their own country the transport they run there is cheap clean and on time." Maybe they invest in their infrastructure more than here. | |||
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"Owning a car now is such an expensive thing and such a faff. Not every garage will service hybrid vehicles still so we have to pay main dealer prices. £500 for the last service with lexus it's a 2011 car FFS!! We love the car unfortunately we cannot afford a new car so stuck with it for now. 34 million cars on uk roads, another 1.95M new ones registered last year. 250,000 used ones on ebay and probably double that again on dealers forecourts. It is ridiculous not to use these existing resources up before converting on mass to EV (over one billion cars on worlds roads) Uk has only 7.5 million cyclists while reported today London is Europe’s most congested city, with drivers sat in traffic an average 101 hours last year. London has the highest public transport costs of any major city. According to Transport for London, the Tube has the most expensive fares of any metro in the world. What further boggles my mind is that the overseas owners of these transport companies have a terrible track record in this country. But in their own country the transport they run there is cheap clean and on time. Maybe they invest in their infrastructure more than here." I think the rules in those countries are tougher so they have to provide a good service or they get the chop. But here is different I am not saying other countries are not corrupt but here it seems they are corrupt to the point of that service demise. | |||
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"telegraph reporting today that sales of EV cars jumped by a fifth last year .... yet it's claimed by some that sales had stalled " Fleet sales driven by heavy discounting, has pushed up those figures. I have read private sales are in decline, lower than figures during lockdown. Individuals are acting immediately, fleet sales will be a delayed reaction but I expect them to stall too, following on from the lowest business confidence in years and worries about budgetary impacts. | |||
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"telegraph reporting today that sales of EV cars jumped by a fifth last year .... yet it's claimed by some that sales had stalled Fleet sales driven by heavy discounting, has pushed up those figures. I have read private sales are in decline, lower than figures during lockdown. Individuals are acting immediately, fleet sales will be a delayed reaction but I expect them to stall too, following on from the lowest business confidence in years and worries about budgetary impacts." I guess at least those fleet sales will end up growing the market for used EVs ? | |||
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"telegraph reporting today that sales of EV cars jumped by a fifth last year .... yet it's claimed by some that sales had stalled Fleet sales driven by heavy discounting, has pushed up those figures. I have read private sales are in decline, lower than figures during lockdown. Individuals are acting immediately, fleet sales will be a delayed reaction but I expect them to stall too, following on from the lowest business confidence in years and worries about budgetary impacts. I guess at least those fleet sales will end up growing the market for used EVs ?" Yes, it makes sense there will be more in the used market in 12 - 24 months, I would also expect the used prices to depreciate more than they are already are.. | |||
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"telegraph reporting today that sales of EV cars jumped by a fifth last year .... yet it's claimed by some that sales had stalled " Was it Chinese ev growth was high but overall had fallen maybe ? Telegraph etc al do seem to love sensational news one way or the other rather than true news | |||
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"When will politicians enter the real world .... Our grid infrastructure is crap already ..bad weather causes power outages let alone the bulk of drivers then plugging in to home charge .... The bulk of our housing does not have driveways or facilitate charging ..in cities with terrace housing parking is both a nightmare and contentious who parks where etc ...Flats would be impossible to install enough points to suit .. Then the public charging ...waiting times ... Charge dropping ..the hassle of numerous apps ...registering cards etc .. I've tried it and sacked it off ... So much easier pulling in for fuel and off you go ... This is politics wanting to go full circle from mobility for the masses back to only the elite being able to afford a car of any sort ... " If have agreed until I got to the conspiracy theory | |||
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"telegraph reporting today that sales of EV cars jumped by a fifth last year .... yet it's claimed by some that sales had stalled Was it Chinese ev growth was high but overall had fallen maybe ? Telegraph etc al do seem to love sensational news one way or the other rather than true news" to be fair, all publications are reporting EV sales being up by 20% last year, but the righty's favoured propaganda rag probably highlights that this thread is pointless and completely pulls the rug from under the fab righty's spewing their fake news | |||
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"so they haven't stalled then .... and this thread is pointless " Not really pointless, the figures show consumer hesitancy, and fleet being propped up by government incentives and heavy discounting, which cannot go on forever. I think we can all agree EV's are not widely accepted, due to technical constraints on charging times, charging facilities, cost new and depreciation / worries about longterm usage. I would also expect the charging tech to change completely at some point, potentially retiring the charge points we have today. The bold thing to do as a government would be to set out a standard for "now," forcing manufacturers to provide a common interface for charging and possibly range. I think that could offer consumer confidence and help steer the country to all EV. Manufacturer incentives should be given for better future technologies, and not for simply building a poor EV. | |||
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"getting back on topic ... sales of EV cars for 2024 surged by 20% .... the thread about them stalling is a total pack of lies .... end of thread " Deciding it is now end of the thread after your comment is so far left | |||
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"getting back on topic ... sales of EV cars for 2024 surged by 20% .... the thread about them stalling is a total pack of lies .... end of thread " 20% of very little is well..... very little. I wouldn't say a surge. Also the vast majority of EV's are being bought by business's and public sector bodies at very big discounts. Add to that the number of unsold registrations by manufacturers and dealers to avoid fines and collect bonus's then the total isn't quite what it seems. The private retail market only bought around 10% of the (still very low) total. | |||
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"getting back on topic ... sales of EV cars for 2024 surged by 20% .... the thread about them stalling is a total pack of lies .... end of thread Deciding it is now end of the thread after your comment is so far left " Cancel Culture ! | |||
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"so they haven't stalled then .... and this thread is pointless " I think people sometimes use (or misinterpret) certain information that supports a narrative that they may want to push … or use old or past information (for example the use of cobolt that is not used at all in some batteries or nearly as much as it did in the past) Range anxiety being another… there is a big difference if a car gets 150 miles from a charge as opposed to up to 350 miles as some small cars can Price … more cars at all price ranges coming! Ect ect | |||
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" Deciding it is now end of the thread after your comment is so far left " oh look ... the fascists have been triggered by my posts | |||
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"so they haven't stalled then .... and this thread is pointless I think people sometimes use (or misinterpret) certain information that supports a narrative that they may want to push … or use old or past information (for example the use of cobolt that is not used at all in some batteries or nearly as much as it did in the past) Range anxiety being another… there is a big difference if a car gets 150 miles from a charge as opposed to up to 350 miles as some small cars can Price … more cars at all price ranges coming! Ect ect" I think you're right, arguing politically about EVs is what is pointless. If an EV suits your needs and wants then somebody's political opinion is irrelevant, practicality/desirability alone will override the choice someone makes to purchase it. This thread is about stalling EV sales, which is factual, if not the full picture. Now that fact is slightly affected by some political actions but by no means entirely, so using it to argue a point is what is causing people to go round in circles. In my view, EVs are not and will not be the blanket answer to replacing combustion engines, even though they are factually better on emissions. Yes, while the footprint to produce them makes some mark, it is still less than that of a combustion engine. However the problem people are forgetting is that EVs are still made by the same companies that gave them ICEs, thus the drive to turn them into a profitable business is missed by most, consumers, medias and government, although the government are involved in forcing the focus of the production of them with policy. However by converting to the electrification of vehicles there can be a much lower reliance on fossil fuels, which I don't feel is broadly known for some reason, but governments do subsidise companies with those monopolies heavily. And unless you're in on the proverbial gravy train, the term monopoly is always at a detriment to you. The oil and gas industry is highly volatile and is partly why it gets subsidises, by cutting it out the chain, you can 'save' money, unfortunately that money saving doesn't land in the pockets of end users, it is an efficiency saving and ends in other corporations and government tax revenues. I own an EV, would I say they're better? Not necessarily. Do I like it? Yes. But would I always pick it over an ICE? No, not necessarily. Crucially (where most people will decide if they have the same option that I have), is it cheap to run by comparison to an ICE? Mostly but not always, and someone in different circumstances to me, of which there will be many* will find them completely unpractical let alone uneconomical to run. Now I can't speak for everyone but most EV owners agree with my general assessment of them and that is the issue, many are feeling forced into thinking they will have to own one, there WILL be other alternatives and price ranges that enable many more to the market. I think some enthusiasts of EVs overstate them massively mind, the major one that comes to mind being the oversight of charging infrastructure or lack of, there's no quick fix for that. | |||
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" Deciding it is now end of the thread after your comment is so far left oh look ... the fascists have been triggered by my posts " I gave you an example of your leftist trait, point to 1 fascist thing I have written comrade | |||
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"so they haven't stalled then .... and this thread is pointless I think people sometimes use (or misinterpret) certain information that supports a narrative that they may want to push … or use old or past information (for example the use of cobolt that is not used at all in some batteries or nearly as much as it did in the past) Range anxiety being another… there is a big difference if a car gets 150 miles from a charge as opposed to up to 350 miles as some small cars can Price … more cars at all price ranges coming! Ect ect" I'm not convinced the battery tech or charging infrastructure is good enough, and if it isn't and we are in a beta phase of EV's that is a lot of wasted car builds and chargers. There is no future roadmap, and that is a problem. | |||
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"so they haven't stalled then .... and this thread is pointless I think people sometimes use (or misinterpret) certain information that supports a narrative that they may want to push … or use old or past information (for example the use of cobolt that is not used at all in some batteries or nearly as much as it did in the past) Range anxiety being another… there is a big difference if a car gets 150 miles from a charge as opposed to up to 350 miles as some small cars can Price … more cars at all price ranges coming! Ect ect I'm not convinced the battery tech or charging infrastructure is good enough, and if it isn't and we are in a beta phase of EV's that is a lot of wasted car builds and chargers. There is no future roadmap, and that is a problem." "Roadmap".....in the context of the subject, I see what you are doing there | |||
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"The bold thing to do as a government would be to set out a standard for "now," forcing manufacturers to provide a common interface for charging ..." There is a common interface for charging. The CCS type 2 connector has been around for 21 years, and has been mandatory in Europe since 2014. | |||
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"It might be worth remembering that this thread is 14 weeks old and it talks only of private sales of ICE compared to pure electric (17.2% diesel V 3.7% electric). It also mentions the heavy discounting done by manufacturers of EV's which they themselves say cannot continue. Again private only figures. Reading some of the other posts I wonder if different things are being compared and quoted in relation to the thread. On a slightly different note I read that BYD of China are selling nearly as many electric vehicles as Tesla. However later in the article they say most are actually hybrid cars from BYD not pure EV like Tesla. So not really a genuine comparison" BYD have both an EV and hybrid department so they can sell different vehicles in different markets So in Europe, BYD are focusing on the EV market, in North America at the moment the focus is more on Hybrid… if that makes sense | |||
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"The bold thing to do as a government would be to set out a standard for "now," forcing manufacturers to provide a common interface for charging ... There is a common interface for charging. The CCS type 2 connector has been around for 21 years, and has been mandatory in Europe since 2014." | |||
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"It might be worth remembering that this thread is 14 weeks old and it talks only of private sales of ICE compared to pure electric (17.2% diesel V 3.7% electric). It also mentions the heavy discounting done by manufacturers of EV's which they themselves say cannot continue. Again private only figures. Reading some of the other posts I wonder if different things are being compared and quoted in relation to the thread. On a slightly different note I read that BYD of China are selling nearly as many electric vehicles as Tesla. However later in the article they say most are actually hybrid cars from BYD not pure EV like Tesla. So not really a genuine comparison BYD have both an EV and hybrid department so they can sell different vehicles in different markets So in Europe, BYD are focusing on the EV market, in North America at the moment the focus is more on Hybrid… if that makes sense " It does make sense and along the lines of my understanding. What I found a bit odd was to compare BYD which makes both hybrid and EV with Tesla that as far as I know only make EV's, especially when it turns out the bulk of BYD sales are Hybrid. It was just an aside thought from my main point about the thread starting off talking about private sales only and comparing ICE to EV | |||
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"There's a looming problem in the EV market as there are 100s of thousands of vehicles sold or leased into the corporate sector over the last 3-4 yeara (encouraged by massive tax breaks for capital equipment) for which there is next to no secondhand market as the private sector hasn't bought into the idea and doesn't want the risk attached to buying a car that might cost 10 grand to replace the battery. " Or…… Since we know there is going to be this influx of cars into the 2nd hand market you may be able to get a 2-3 yr old car at a much cheaper price than you would do otherwise… It was exactly the same thing people said at the time about people buying hybrids… and ex business fleet ones specifically… technology and all that!! Isn’t what you have mentioned the classic definition of a buyers market | |||
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"There's a looming problem in the EV market as there are 100s of thousands of vehicles sold or leased into the corporate sector over the last 3-4 yeara (encouraged by massive tax breaks for capital equipment) for which there is next to no secondhand market as the private sector hasn't bought into the idea and doesn't want the risk attached to buying a car that might cost 10 grand to replace the battery. Or…… Since we know there is going to be this influx of cars into the 2nd hand market you may be able to get a 2-3 yr old car at a much cheaper price than you would do otherwise… It was exactly the same thing people said at the time about people buying hybrids… and ex business fleet ones specifically… technology and all that!! Isn’t what you have mentioned the classic definition of a buyers market " You miss the blindingly obvious. The hybrid technology was limited to effectively one niche model, i.e. the Prius. In 20 years only 114,000 were sold in the UK. The hybrid tech is good and proven and of course at its core is the ICE. If you don't believe me about EVs, come and tour with me the BCA and other automotive sites across the country. The EVs are lierally rotting away in compounds. The problem is the scale. Many EVs are horrendously expensive to insure, as the insurers will write off EVs for relatively minor damage. And running costs? Today we put 100 miles of charge on a Hyundai Kona at a BP charge station in Corby. The cost? £31. A similar diesel journey would have cost ca. 12 quid. | |||
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"so they haven't stalled then .... and this thread is pointless I think people sometimes use (or misinterpret) certain information that supports a narrative that they may want to push … or use old or past information (for example the use of cobolt that is not used at all in some batteries or nearly as much as it did in the past) Range anxiety being another… there is a big difference if a car gets 150 miles from a charge as opposed to up to 350 miles as some small cars can Price … more cars at all price ranges coming! Ect ect I think you're right, arguing politically about EVs is what is pointless. If an EV suits your needs and wants then somebody's political opinion is irrelevant, practicality/desirability alone will override the choice someone makes to purchase it. This thread is about stalling EV sales, which is factual, if not the full picture. Now that fact is slightly affected by some political actions but by no means entirely, so using it to argue a point is what is causing people to go round in circles. In my view, EVs are not and will not be the blanket answer to replacing combustion engines, even though they are factually better on emissions. Yes, while the footprint to produce them makes some mark, it is still less than that of a combustion engine. However the problem people are forgetting is that EVs are still made by the same companies that gave them ICEs, thus the drive to turn them into a profitable business is missed by most, consumers, medias and government, although the government are involved in forcing the focus of the production of them with policy. However by converting to the electrification of vehicles there can be a much lower reliance on fossil fuels, which I don't feel is broadly known for some reason, but governments do subsidise companies with those monopolies heavily. And unless you're in on the proverbial gravy train, the term monopoly is always at a detriment to you. The oil and gas industry is highly volatile and is partly why it gets subsidises, by cutting it out the chain, you can 'save' money, unfortunately that money saving doesn't land in the pockets of end users, it is an efficiency saving and ends in other corporations and government tax revenues. I own an EV, would I say they're better? Not necessarily. Do I like it? Yes. But would I always pick it over an ICE? No, not necessarily. Crucially (where most people will decide if they have the same option that I have), is it cheap to run by comparison to an ICE? Mostly but not always, and someone in different circumstances to me, of which there will be many* will find them completely unpractical let alone uneconomical to run. Now I can't speak for everyone but most EV owners agree with my general assessment of them and that is the issue, many are feeling forced into thinking they will have to own one, there WILL be other alternatives and price ranges that enable many more to the market. I think some enthusiasts of EVs overstate them massively mind, the major one that comes to mind being the oversight of charging infrastructure or lack of, there's no quick fix for that." I would broadly agree with that, but I would pick you up on one point. You say "arguing politically is pointless". In a fully consumer led market that would be correct but the EV market isn't. When politicians are forcing/distorting the market with fines on manufacturers and bans on other competing technology, then the issue is VERY political. I'm not against EV's per se (although I do have plenty of reservations). For some users there is a place for them in the world. What I do think is pointless is that a small island in the north Atlantic should flagellate itself in the name of saving the world, while in other parts of the same world they are building coal fired power stations to provide us with the whips. | |||
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"An ev is the biggest cod of the century " No it isn't. A guy in Norway caught a 70 pounder recently. Sorry couldn't resist. | |||
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"An ev is the biggest cod of the century No it isn't. A guy in Norway caught a 70 pounder recently. Sorry couldn't resist." 😂😂😂 | |||
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"I know that some on here with a certain viewpoint like to deride the Daily Mail but this is worth a read. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14252015/Dirty-little-secret-Wests-net-zero-dash-electric-cars-Ed-Miliband-mass-mining-nickel-EV-batteries-ecological-impact.html In a nutshell it describes the practises of Nickel mining and smelting on one island in Indonesia. Nickel is in high demand for its use in EV manufacture. Deforestation, land confiscated from local farmers, heavy metal pollution destroying the local fishing industry, uncontacted tribes being forced off their land (some are even calling it genocide) and that is just the local impact. From a C02 point of view, besides a huge Nickel smelting plant no less than 6 (soon to be 12) new coal fired power stations have been built to power the mining and processing of the Nickel. So while one small island in the north Atlantic rushes headlong into a deranged net zero madness. Another small island in the South China Sea is probably pumping out more C02 than the other island would ever save. All so that the Ed Miliband's of this world can polish their halo's. Oh and that is on top of the Congo Cobalt tragedy. Just think about that before buying one of those "clean" EV's. " Yes, they are not as "clean" as some people think they are | |||
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"An ev is the biggest cod of the century No it isn't. A guy in Norway caught a 70 pounder recently. Sorry couldn't resist." Need some portion of chips with that! | |||
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